# Chronic Diarrhea and Gas? May be Candidiasis!



## Guest (Feb 14, 2000)

After 20 years of being told I have IBS, and doubting it all the time, I found that it was something entirely different and curable. My hope is that by sharing this, I can help others avoid needless suffering and disability due to the ignorance of the medical community about this condition. I do NOT claim that everybody who has been diagnosed with IBS (which is really an exclusion of other diagnoses) has this same condition, but that a certain percentage does and is curable like me.30 years ago (at age 15) I was told that the intense abdominal pains I was experiencing when hungry were likely due to a gastric ulcer (though none was found in an upper GI) and put on acid blockers and a mild tranquilizer. This went on for the following 10 years, until the pains finally disappeared. About 22 years ago I made a lifestyle change from a high protein/fat diet to one very high in carbohydrates.About 20 years ago I started experiencing diarrhea more and more often until about 10 years ago it became constant and disabling. Over the last 10 years it has become chronic diarrhea with extreme urgency, gas, abdominal distension, and a frequently of about 5 ï¿½ 10 times a day. I would typically only have about 5 minutes warning before I absolutely had to go. This severely limited travel and social activities and I was no longer a part of many family activities as well as travel needed for my job.For the last 5 years, I have seriously doubted my IBS diagnosis, as my symptoms were totally constant and unchanging, so I set in with a respected gastroenterologist. After 5 years, and numerous tests, biopsies, specimens of every kind, and elimination diets, I had found out a few things, but he was no closer to a diagnosis. I found that: anti-motility drugs such as bentyl would firm the stool a bit but created intolerable gas, a diet low in carbohydrates improved things slightly, a meal very high in simple carbohydrates such as sugar, greatly increased my symptoms, a meal totally void of carbohydrates helped but did not eliminate them, digestive enzymes such as the prescription drug pancrealipase or health store supplements containing lipase, amylase, and protease helped about 75%, and that probiotics such as cultured dairy products (cheese especially) helped even more.At my witï¿½s end, and ready to consider a colostomy, I took it upon myself to take what I learned and do my own research using REPUTABLE medical reference sites on the Internet. By searching out almost everything that could cause diarrhea, I came across a single condition, which had all the case history, and symptoms of my condition except one. Candida Albicans is a fungus that is also a yeast. Yeast consumes sugars and gluten (protein in many grains) and produces large amounts of gasses especially carbon dioxide. It is the same organism a woman gets when she has a yeast infection. It is considered normal to find candida in small amounts here and there in individuals with normal immune systems. For people with compromised immune systems such as those with AIDS, it can be lethal. Except for vaginal yeast infections, it is not believed to flourish in normal people. However the information I was finding was that the intestinal tract is an exception, just as it is for e. coli and other organisms. The intestinal tract has an immune system function of itï¿½s own. This is why organisms, which are harmful to other areas of the body, can flourish harmlessly in the intestines. It was my belief from my research that I had an intestinal candida albicans (candidiasis) infection, which was the cause of my symptoms. I questioned my gastroenterologist about this and he said that it was virtually impossible for me, as a person with a normal immune system, to have a localized candida infection within my intestines. I checked with my regular doctor as well and she stated the same.The medical evidence I had found to the contrary, including articles in the Lancet and JAMA were too reputable to ignore. I had also found one very comprehensive web site in which a doctor had focused on this exact disease (intestinal candidiasis). I did confirm the findings on this web site (managed by a doctor) with other medical reference sites. This doctor had warned in his material that it is still not commonly accepted in the medical community that an immunocompetant individual can have intestinal candidiasis.Lamasil tablets, an oral and topical antifungal, was the preferred drug for intestinal candida treatment. I approached my regular doctor with my findings and told her that unless she could either convince me that it was clinically impossible for me to have intestinal candidiasis, or the treatment put me at significant risk or major medical complications, I wanted to try it. She balked at first, and then gave me a prescription for 30 days of oral Lamasil tablets.By the end of the first week, 90 percent of my symptoms were gone for the first time in 20 years, and after having tried everything under the sun. I was left with more gas than normal for most people, but I knew that my intestinal flora was being upset in a major way and this could be expected. I had no other symptoms for the remainder of the Lamasil treatment. One week after discontinuing this drug, I started experiencing a slight problems with high carbohydrate meals, and an occasional softening of my stools, but NOTHING like I had before. After a few months nothing got any better or worse. I was still 90% better than anytime in the previous 20 years. I have since taken another 30 days of Lamasil to address the remaining symptoms and it did. Internal candida is NOT an easy infection to eradicate.There is no doubt that I had suffered from intestinal candidiasis for at least 20 years, and that with proper recognition it could have been relieved at any time during that period.I am not saying that if you have been diagnosed as having IBS, you actually have what I had. However after finding many people who were diagnosed with IBS and really had another diagnosable and often treatable condition, I am saying that if you have either predictable or consistent symptoms, challenge this diagnosis. And if your story sounds similar to mine, consider candidiasis as one of the possible causes.For more information on intestinal candidiasis, I would recommend the following url as a STARTING point. It was the best and most comprehensive site I found, but you will need to explore other information as well. http://members.aol.com/DocDarren/med/candida.html


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:There is no doubt that I had suffered from intestinal candidiasis for at least 20 years, and that with proper recognition it


Or more than likely, your symptoms just happened to improve all on their own unrelated to this therapy.


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2000)

If you read the history very carefully, you will see that after 20 years of symptoms which were getitng progressively worse, and so many remedies tried with little or no effect (none longterm), that the odds of spontaneous remission within the same week as taking a medication which was designed to erradicate the fungus suspected are quite low. That coupled with a number of details which I didn't include would say that this is highly unlikely.Here's one detail I didn't include which should help.In the end I found that very high doses of natural live probiotics would achieve about 80% relief as long as I continued with them. In addition, my stools took on a very strong amonia odor in the beginning of these periods, but only when the probiotics were very effective and I was experiencing normal stools and bowel movements. Amonia is a by-product of decaying proteins, such as colonies of fungi. No the amonia odor was not in my urine due to ketosis, and I was tested for diabetes. This relief would last for about a week after I stopped consuming large sources of probiotics, indicating that it had significantly change the balance in something (intestinal flora), beyond the immediate effects of a food supplement. When I stopped taking the probiotics and started having diarrhea again, the amonia odor disappeared. This cycle was repeated many times.When I started the Lamasil, I experienced several days of non-urgent diarrhea (my diarrhea was always explosive and urgent) and a continuous strong amonia odor which I have never experienced with diarrhea, only with normal stools resulting from large doses of probiotics. Never had I experienced the amonia odor with my stools at any other time.When starting the Lamasil and the diarrhea subsided (3 to 4 days), so did the amonia odor, and I experienced consistantly noraml stools and bowel movements for the first time in 20 years.Beleive me, it's not a coincidence. It amazed my doctor too, who did a very detailed physical to figure out what went on. She agreed that candidiasis was by far the most likely cause of my symptoms and the Lamasil was the only explainable reason for cessation of symptoms.There is much more, but space/time does not allow me to detail everything. I am an engineer with a strong technical background, and unusually good diagnostic abilities. I documented every step, cause, and effect of every remedy tried, and really could come to no other conclusion. [This message has been edited by curvyroads (edited 02-14-2000).]


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2000)

I'm extremely happy for you and wish you well. Maybe your post will help some others on here.Good luck,Ellie


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2000)

Congratulations on becoming healthy! Its nice to hear that someone else believes in Candida. I too have it and am trying to get rid of it at the moment. I am on a herbal anti-fungal at the moment but it isnt working quick enough. I am seeing a doctor on Monday who, believe it or not, actually believes in candida. He will give me a script for something stronger like what you took. I cant wait to feel even better. I havent had D since starting on an anti candida diet but I am still very lethargic and suffer from nausea (although not nearly as bad as before). I find that the change in weather and damp conditions affect me greatly. Did you find that too? I know quite a few people have mentioned that they have trouble in different temperatures and also with moulds. I just wish they would stop listening to flux and try some anti fungals to see if it helps. Thanks for your posting I hope everyone reads it!


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## jane93 (Jan 21, 2000)

I've always been a little skeptical of the candid theory. I tried garlic ..it did seem to help me for a while..but then stopped being as effective and seemed to bring on other effects. I didn't know regular docs beleived in candida either.


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## moldie (Sep 25, 1999)

curvyroads, Let me just say that even though your cure was not found in a timely manner, your timing on this BB could not be better. We just had, have had, and no doubt will always have a lengthy discussion on this topic. Don't mind flux; he has made it his job to ixney all postings regarding the support of the candida theory as he is the self-admitted, self appointed police of the internet. Perhaps it is not all his fault, as it has been kept under wraps for too many generations in the medical schools for obvious political reasons.The medical profession has convinced themselves to ignore these "anecdotal" recoveries and merely chalk them up to placebo, or spontaneous remission. Spontaneous remission doesn't happen all of a sudden when things have been going progressively downhill for years. Placebo effect may last for a couple of weeks at most, but not for as longterm as a year. There are too many "coincidences" out there to be merely "coincidental." The theory makes sense, and the treatment works. Not a cure for all people with IBS, but hope for those who have experienced a change in their normal bowel symptoms while being on meds such as antibiotics, steroids, and birth control pills. Drug books note this condition under "side-effects" of these meds.. Even the CDC recognizes it as a problem. Many people are unaware of an underlying autoimmune disorder, although it is arguable that the increase in bad bacterial flora, in itself, can undermine the immune system. This makes me want to ask you here curvy, if you experienced any increased chemical sensitivities since your long history with this problem? Thankyou for sharing this curvy, and I wish you continued gains to better health.


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## vikee (Feb 5, 2000)

I have followed the last "Candida" thread with interest. I'm just an ordinary person, but couldn't IBS really be a set of different diseases? If so different treatments work or don't for different people. I personally believe if it works and you accept all possible risks of treatment why not? Good Luck!


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

The science doesn't all add up.


> quote:Amonia is a by-product of decaying proteins, such as colonies of fungi. No the amonia odor was not in my urine due to ketosis, and I was tested for diabetes. This relief would last for about a week


What is so special between ammonia and fungi that isn't so with normal gut bacteria? Ammonia usually means the liver is not processing ammonia that is normally being produced. But you couldn't have that much ammonia otherwise the effects would get to your head. Perhaps it wasn't ammonia.We don't know that probiotics can have that dramatic an impact on gut bacteria and why do the symptoms come back when you stop them? Why don't they hang around or kill whatever is present such that it doesn't return?


> quote: a meal very high in simple carbohydrates such as sugar, greatly increased my symptoms,


Why would a meal high in sugar which are absorbed high up in the gut affect your symptoms, unless you were independently malabsorbing them? You couldn't have generalized malabsorption; otherwise, there would way more going on.Finally, where was this Candida located? If you had endoscopies and colonoscopy, it should have been seen.


> quote:Spontaneous remission doesn't happen all of a sudden


Can happen any time, all of a sudden.


> quotelacebo effect may last for a couple of weeks at most


May be permanent.


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2000)

In answer to your question about the effects of various chemicals and food substances, YES! Starting about a month after I began the Lamasil, my whole metabolism changed quite dramatically. As an example, I used to be VERY sensitive to caffeine and other stimulants. A cup of coffee would wire me up for hours. Only a month later, I can drink a whole pot with no effect. That's only one of many changes to how I metabolize things differently with the only medical change being the month of Lamasil. It has really been quite incredible.I do not hold it against flux, in fact I suspect that he is a doctor in the 40 and over age range. Even my own doctor who witnessed my turnaround, said that in all her med school lectures (which were short and few) regarding candidiasis, they were told that it virtually does not occur in immunocompetent individuals. Yet they ignore documentation and clinical tests to the contrary dating back to 1976 in the JAMA and numerous other sources. It's all based on the precept that a normal immune system will overcome this fungus. What I can't figure out is why they ignore the differences between the body's immune response, and the intestine's. Obviously there is a radical difference, or there wouldn't be so many organisms, which live unaffected in the colon, yet if ingested, will cause severe sickness and even death (such as e. coli). This is well known, so is it such a stretch to consider that the body could handle candida albicans in the same way? Of the several doctors I have discussed this with, none have an answer. Instead, the just smile and change the subject.Mine was not a systemic case. I did not have leaky gut or any manifestations outside of my intestines. After studying the condition, having a background in brewing beer and winemaking (enology), I had a very good understanding of how yeast thrived. The case history of long term acid blockers (proton pump inhibitors) creating a constant high pH environment, a high carbohydrate diet, creates a perfect environment for the candida yeast to flourish. It explains my intolerance of carbs and a borderline xylose tolerance test as well. If one has an open mind, realizes that the medical profession often uses syndromes like IBS as a scapegoat for inadequate understanding or lack of time and resources, then studies carefully the habits of this bug along with it's ideal living conditions, one can only come to the conclusion that it is possible. Not definite, but possible.I know too many people who were told they had IBS 5 - 10 years ago, and today know they have food intolerance or allergy, or some other definable condition. It takes time and careful experimentation to find out if one is truly IBS, or actually something else yet to be discovered. If your symptoms are consistent as were mine, or predictable as are so many, there is hope. Not necessarily a cure, but with understanding one cal learn how to live with it better or maybe even resolved it.As one who put close to a hundred hours of study into this one condition, and hundreds of hours into IBS related or assumed conditions, I can tell you the following: IBS is not always IBS, intestinal candidiasis (localized to the interior of the intestines especially the colon) can and does occur in immunocompetent individuals though it is unusual (but unusual is what you must have if all the usuals have been ruled out), it does take a unique set of circumstances to acquire this condition, it can be difficult and sometimes impossible to eradicate forever, the medical community at large does not fully accept this, a month of oral antifungal is all it takes to find out (about $200 if non-formulary) if you may have it, and lastly there IS hope.Remember when the medical community at large did not accept that a common bacteria could cause gastric ulcers? Can you say H. Pylori? Fortunately, with enough evidence, even the AMA can re-evaluate it's positionï¿½PS I found no substantiated evidence that anything short of prescription antifungal therapy will resolve intestinal candida. Of course some herbal manufacturers will disagree, but then they don't have to support their claims with fact (being non-FDA regulated). In fact, things such as garlic actually can kill off the beneficial bacteria, which is keeping the candida fungus somewhat in check. If you think you may have it, study the web site I put in my original post and others like it, and be prepared to have a frank, well informed, respectful conversation with your doctor. You will not get his/her cooperation with something they are not a strong believer in, if you are insulting or condescending. You have to be persuasive, not demanding. At least the first time.


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2000)

Response to questions from flux:Quote:What is so special between ammonia and fungi that isn't so with normal gut bacteria? Ammonia usually means the liver is not processing ammonia that is normally being produced. But you couldn't have that much ammonia otherwise the effects would get to your head. Perhaps it wasn't ammonia. Response:I took nothing to kill bacteria, but I WAS taking an antifungal when my stool contained the strongest amount. So what else would it be killing? And it is my understanding that if the liver is filtering ammonia out of the blood, it processes it into the urine, not the colon. If this were true, then the protein decay would seem to be occurring in the gut, not liver. Remember that my urine did NOT have any ammonia. And I DO know the smell of ammonia.Quote:We don't know that probiotics can have that dramatic an impact on gut bacteria and why do the symptoms come back when you stop them? Why don't they hang around or kill whatever is present such that it doesn't return? Response:I didn't assume that the probiotics were killing off colonies of bacteria. I assumed that it was the candida colonies.As to the effects of probiotics, what if one had an intestinal environment that was not totally conducive to beneficial bacteria, but was conducive to some negative organism? Not a big stretch here. If one suddenly increased the beneficial bacteria population dramatically, which can have an antibiotic effect on the negative organisms, what would happen? Partial recovery of the normal balance and killing off of SOME of the negative organisms, but not necessarily total eradication of the negative offender. Now the introduction of beneficial bacteria is ceased and the intestinal flora seeks it's usual balance again, but it takes time. It's not immediate. Hence the reason that enzyme supplements only helped in the meals I consumed them with, but the probiotics had a more lasting effect. Fungi are not so easily killed. Ever try to eradicate tinea from toenails? It took awhile for my gut flora to seek it's usual balance, which unfortunately contained an unusually high proportion of candida.Quote:Why would a meal high in sugar which are absorbed high up in the gut affect your symptoms, unless you were independently malabsorbing them? You couldn't have generalized malabsorption; otherwise, there would way more going on. Response:Mine was not generalized and was not clinically present. Like so many tests, there is a range that is considered normal, and a range that is not. My xylose tolerance test was on the edge of malabsorbtion. Even if I was not malabsorbtive, some sugars do make it to the colon and obviously did. In normal systems this isn't a major problem. What happens to yeast living in the colon if you feed them sugar or gluten? Remember that I have verified that many grains and simple carbs were aggravators. I even had good results on a gluten free diet, but not fantastic.A diet of chicken and rice yielded diarrhea, but no gas. I assume you know why that would happen with rice.Quote:Finally, where was this Candida located? If you had endoscopies and colonoscopy, it should have been seen.Response:That's the first thing I checked with my gastroenterologist when I suspected localized candida. He said that candida was not one of the things they looked for in the biopsies (stomach, upper small intestine, colon, and lower small intestine). They were looking for signs of IBD and celiac sprue, as well as giardia and a host of other things. But not candida. Smokey Mountain Labs does to a stool examination for candida, but even that isn't conclusive, as some candida is not a problem. The best diagnostic procedure I could find for diagnosing candida economically, was to take the antifungal and see what happens. With totally consistent symptoms over a period of 20 years, it would be quite obvious that the odds of lasting remission beginning 2 - 3 days following the beginning of treatment would be an almost complete confirmation of at least a fungal infection being the cause. Mathematically the odds are 1 in 1,000 of coincidental remission. With all the other information and tests behind me, they were even wider than that.Summation:Obviously this is the type of situation where either point of view cannot be proven 100%. Both flux's and my experiences are not absolutely 100% verifiable. I cannot share all his/her experiences, nor can he/she share all of mine. I know what I know, and I experienced what I experienced. I am an extreme skeptic, and questioned my own results for a long time before becoming convinced of the cause and effect results. I offer this information for your consideration. Do your own research, and consider what sounds reasonable and logical. But remember that no one knows all, and a close mind can learn nothing new. An open mind may fail, but in every failure there is some success.


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## moldie (Sep 25, 1999)

Vikee, you are correct in your assumption. One has to have all the pieces fit for this diagnosis and treatment to be relevant.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:It's all based on the precept that a normal immune system will overcome this fungus.


And the precept that fungi are not that pathogenic. That's why it's not a common infection inside the body, but only on the outside.


> quote:The case history of long term acid blockers (proton pump inhibitors) creating a constant high pH environment, a high carbohydrate diet, reates a perfect environment for the candida yeast to flourish.


That's a good environment for bacteria to flourish. though the carbohydrates would be absorbed before that they had a chance to do much. In addition, the gut rapidly expels bacteria from the top down.


> quote:And it is my understanding that if the liver is filtering ammonia out of the blood, it processes it into the urine, not the colon. If this were true, then the protein decay would seem to be occurring in the gut, not liver. Remember that my urine did NOT have anyammonia. And I DO know the smell of ammonia.


Not all proteins one consumes are absorbed. Some are digested by the gut bacteria and produce ammonia, which is processed by the liver. That is normal.The smell of ammonia doesn't necesarily mean ammonia.


> quote:Fungi are not so easily killed.


For organisms that are not particularly pathogenic, in a relatively harsh environment for them, it is hard to imagine that they can grow at all.


> quote:some sugars do make it to the colon and obviously did. In normal systems this isn't a major problem. What happens to yeast living in the colon if you feed them sugar or gluten?


You feed the bacteria there, which is generally what you want. But when it comes to infection, that is irrelevant. The infectious organism feeds on the body's tissues.What would happen if you had yeast in your lungs? Do you start breathing air with Nutrasweet?


> quote:A diet of chicken and rice yielded diarrhea, but no gas. I assume you know why that would happen with rice.


Nope.


> quote:the things they looked for in the biopsies (stomach, upper small intestine, colon, and lower small intestine).


Was your doctor's eyes closed? You can see a yeast infection with open eyes. It would look just like thrush. You wouldn't need a biopsy. Although they show up there of course.


> quote:Mathematically the odds are 1 in 1,000 of coincidental remission. With all


How did you calculate that?[This message has been edited by flux (edited 02-15-2000).]


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2000)

I stated:Mathematically the odds are 1 in 1,000 of coincidental remission. You asked:How did you calculate that?Simple statistics. Out of the 1,000 weeks I experienced constant consistent unwavering symptoms, I tried one treatment which actually had curative potential. All others were only different forms of the classic "anti" drugs which had no potential to cure anything. In that single week I had a cessation of symptoms which have not returned. The odds of spontaneous and lasting remission in the same week (actually about 3 days) that I began the medication, would therefore be one in a thousand.As to the other topics, these are things which I find answers to quite easily in various medical references. Statements such as "when it comes to infection, that is irrelevant. The infectious organism feeds on the body's tissues" are so far off track, especially when it comes to the digestive tract, which is an endless source of food for many little creatures from parasites (which feed almost entirely off the food supply and not the body tissues) that I don't really see that my limited time would be well spent in further jousting with you.My purpose is to make some good come out of the 20 years I have lost away from my family, friends, and hobbies due to repeated misdiagnosis. Yes, maybe my doctor was blind. All I can say is that my case history and symptoms were a 90% match for non-systemic intestinal candidiasis, and the only treatment for such condition gave not only relief for the first time in 20 years, but continuing relief even after the end of treatment. My hope is that even though this will not convince everybody of this possibility, it may open the eyes of at least one person. If one person can have their life turned around the way mine has been, then my suffering and experiences were not without purpose or benefit. I find that too many medical professionals are of the attitude that if a certain diagnostic procedure or treatment is very unlikely to achieve results, then it isn't worth the effort/expense. That was my case. However it was MY life and I felt that it WAS worth the effort no matter how unlikely. I persevered, and in the end I won. I know my situation was rare, and that is what doomed me to prolonged suffering. If I can help shorten the suffering of just one person with what I have learnedï¿½


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:The infectious organism feeds on the body's tissues" are so far off track,


No, that is exactly what an infectious organism does.


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## HipJan (Apr 9, 1999)

curvy -- I'll have to read this thread again later...lots of info. Thanks for the timely postings! I'm a person who certainly has a less-than-perfect immune system (verified thru testing). Between that and other things going on (such as apparent gut bacterial imbalance after taking meds such as acid blockers, plus my diet at the time, etc.), I think I had developed a great environment in which candida could thrive. I do in fact have various, not-so-normal problems in other areas of my body as well (so not just limited to gut for me). Yes, it IS suspected I have a real candida problem, including malaborption/excess permeability (which can be caused by bacterial and yeast overgrowth). Anyway, I thought it was interesting, and informative, to learn of yeast infection without being immuno-compromised. Good continued luck, and thanks again for your presentation here.------------------Cultivate gratitude. Believe in possibilities.


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## LALA (Oct 11, 1999)

Curvy,I have thought for a while that I may be experiencing Candida. I do have that site you mentioned about Candida bookmarked. My questions:Are you male or female?Is there present research being conducted on Candida Yeast?Taking the anti-fungal meds can 'rid' your system of the yeast, but isn't it the type of environment which is perfect for regrowth?LALA


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2000)

Hello Lala,In answer to your questions:I am male 44.As to research, there has been a lot of research with positive results over the last 20 years. The web site in my post has a thorough bibliography at the end, noting the sources of most of the information contained in that site. As usual, modern Europe seems to be ahead of the US in this area. I think because IBS and related conditions just don't catch the headlines like many other diseases. It is the invisible disability. And doctors HATE working with "syndromes."Based on the information I was able to obtain from numerous medical reference sources which do acknowledge intestinal candidiasis, a high carb diet and acid blockers creating a high pH in the intestines, do provide an environment more hospitable to candida than a normal GI tract would. It is supposed to be notoriously hard to get rid of and keep away, but there are a number of dietary modifications which help. I can't speak from experience here, as mine has only been gone about 6 months and we are now testing to see if the minor symptoms I still have are due to a small colony of remaining candida, or other problems which were present all along and masked by the severity of the candida symptoms. Believe me, I never imagined a world where I could go only 1 - 2 times a day and have a completely normal stool most of the time. The only thing I am really left with, and it probably predates the candida and may have even have been an initiating factor to it, is a bit of carbohydrate intolerance. It is conceivable that my early ulcer diagnosis was wrong, or that the candida did permanent damage to the portion of my small intestine which absorbs simple carbs This is not an area which could be examine with a scope. In either case, my current diet only has to avoid large quantities of pastries, sweetened breakfast cereal, or pancakes/waffles with a lot of syrup. These things will create a large amount of gas about 12 - 24 hours later, a softer stool, and increased frequency for a few hours. But this is compared to a wheat bread sandwich sending me into debilitating abdominal cramping and explosive D every half-hour for half a day. So at this point, my doc and I are simply trying to figure out which came first, the chicken (carb intol) or the egg (candida). It is looking like I probably had the poor digestion of carbs from about 25 years ago, coupled with the ongoing acid blockers and a high carb diet, I had been making a nest for these little guys. And they act exactly like you would expect yeast to act. They metabolize sugars and gluten (which can make this condition look like celiac sprue) at a rate directly related to their food supply, and the more food the more they procreate. Again like yeast, starve them and they reduce population and go into dormancy awaiting better weather.Lamasil seems to have the most promise at the current time, and is stated to have the least likelihood of liver damage compared to the other antifungals. It sure kept it's reputation with me. I noticed dramatic changes within the first 24 ï¿½ 48 hours.These are my experiences. I hope this helps.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:As usual, modern Europe seems to be ahead of the US in this area.


In what fad diagnoses? I think the US leads.


> quote:a high carb diet and acid blockers creating a high pH in the intestines, do provide an environment more hospitable to candida than a normal GI tract would.


That is a normal GI tract these days.


> quote:Again like yeast, starve them and they reduce population and go into dormancy awaiting better weather.


This is like saying that this will also cure a bacterial gastroenteritis.


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## Persistance (Jul 11, 1999)

Flux, could you expand on your answer here? Quote: "a high carb diet and acid blockers creating a high pH in the intestines, do provide an environment more hospitable to candida than a normal GI tract would."Your answer: that is a normal GI tract these days.Are you saying so many people now have to take acid blockers and eat high carbs and there are not that many resulant cases of Candida? (I hope!)


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Are you saying so many people now have to take acid blockers and eat high carbs and there are not that many resulant cases ofCandida? (I hope!)


Yep.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2000)

Curvyroads. Great Post! I would like you to go to the bottom right of the topics list where it lists previous pages of posts, and click on page 5, (perhaps on 6 now) and look at my post and replies on 2-10 titled "Candida-molds-leaky gut-and IBS: some ideas". You will my story is very similar to yours. I had IBS and brain fog all my life and it was only antifungal treatment and diet change that brought some improvement. There are clearly many causes of IBS, something I have learned from this board. Whatever it is, the antifungal drugs and other treatments make people like us better.I really don't mind flux that much. I am on the board to get info and help people if I can. But he doesn't want to accept that the issue is bigger and more complicated than the limited amount of research that has been done to directly test the candida hypothesis.The good news is we feel better! And thats what counts!


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## kitty2 (Nov 27, 1999)

that was a great post curvyroads -thanks!


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## HipJan (Apr 9, 1999)

curvyroads -- yes, I've enjoyed this thread as well. How did you hear of Lamasil (I couldn't find much info on it yet in the Internet)? Usually, on this BB and through reading, I hear of Diflucan, Nystatin, and Flagyl, with the first generally thought to be the most effective (and perhaps with the most eventual side-effects? others?). I hear that it can be difficult to get off these drugs. Have you heard of SF-722...is it a legitimate "cure"?!------------------Cultivate gratitude. Believe in possibilities.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2000)

Hi HipJan,Most of the information I got about Lamisil was from the web site in my original post. This doctor has assembled the largest and most comprehensive reference I could find on the web regarding intestinal candida. He's had a great deal of personal experience working with (or should I say against) it, and provides reputable references for almost all his information, in the bibliography at the end of his pages. I STRONGLY recommend that anybody who suspects themselves of this condition use that page as a STARTING point. Not as your entire source of information. Cross check with other sources. No one should EVER use a single web site as an absolute source of info.As to the Lamasil, it is rather new as an oral drug. It's proven to be about the most fungicide out there, and is an anti fungal as well. In other words, not only does it kill on contact from the outside, it also kills the fungi systemically by preventing their growth. As an oral anti-fungal, the theory goes like this: (quoting here) "Lamisil offers hope in that it is not just fungistatic (stops growth of fungi), but also fungicidal (kills fungi). Lamisil may replace Diflucan as the number one choice. About 30% of Lamisil is unabsorbed leaving about 75mg of the tablet to pass through the intestines. Lamisil and Diflucan are extremely safe and effective. A single dose of 150 mg Diflucan can cure a yeast infection in women. However, its activity in the intestines may not be as significant. Various yeasts are resistant to it as well as Sporanox, most notably, Candida krusei. Liver function problems with Lamisil, like Diflucan, are also rare. Nystatin is the weakest antifungal and many yeast are resistant to it. Prescription antifingal drugs are a NECESSARY part in treatment. Natural antifungal products are far too weak to have any significant effect or else they would be used in cases of severe mycosis. Minimum inhibition concentration (MIC) levels from Candida in stool will be helpful to determine susceptibility of the Candida a patient is carrying to the various antifungal drugs.ï¿½ Hope this helps.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2000)

Chuck-w,I read the thread you refer to. It seems like you have the systemic version of candidiasis with the addition of mold allergies. Not a pretty picture to be sure.So far I actually count myself lucky, that if one accepts the possibility of intestinal candidiasis (or at least some type of fungus/yeast), which means that it is contained within the intestinal tract, then that seems to have been my situation. I had none of the systemic symptoms.Although I think it highly unlikely (like one in millions), I have trouble buying flux's theory of spontaneous remission in my case. I had clearly definable symptoms for 20 years, with precursors in the 10 years preceding. To think that within 24 hours of taking Lamisil my symptoms took a radical turn for the better, which has not reversed itself in 6 months, is pretty far fetched. It's not like I hadn't tried a hundred different things before. But we are all entitled to our opinions.As far as IBS diagnosis, many people are asking how it is diagnosed. I have to tell you that in my experience, it is diagnosed only by two things: 1) ruling out other likely pathological causes such as Crohns, Colitis, etc., and 2) fitting into a category of seemingly unpredictable bowel disfunctions often believed to be emotional in origin (because they donï¿½t know where else to look). One of by doctors told me ï¿½medical research has found that IBS sufferers commonly have emotional problems, but who with this condition wouldnï¿½t.ï¿½ It has been my experience that all to often, this diagnosis is arrived at by brief interviews (an hour or two at most) and a series of pathological and specimen tests. If they all show negative, then it must be IBS. I have known too many people like myself, who have suffered for years with ï¿½IBSï¿½ only to find out later that it really WAS a particular treatable condition. I found this over and over again through a local IBS support group at a local Kaiser facility. Half my fellow IBS group members, came in eventually with a known definable condition, treatable or not. Thus I say ï¿½As hard as it is, and I KNOW how hard it is, donï¿½t give up trying to find a pattern, a clue, something that shows a cause and effect relationship to your symptoms.ï¿½ Not that it will necessarily lead to a cure, but at the very least it will help you understand and better control your situations. Wouldnï¿½t you feel badly if after 20 years, you found out that your spontaneous bouts of D were because of an allergic or intolerant reaction to some very common food? Eliminate that food, and reduce/eliminate the symptoms.The GI tract is amazingly complex. It is a series of ecosystems and microclimates similar to our earth. Each is in careful balance with it's counterparts. If one falls out of balance, then others down the line may be severely effected. I suspect that man understands as much about the GI tract as they do about the ecosystems of this earth. Enough to do some good and some harm...My greatest frustration through the last 20 years, was that I knew and could readily articulate my symptoms, their cause and effect relationships, etc. They were totally consistent and totally predictable. This defies the classic definition of IBS. I had had all the usual tests and more. At one point my doctor shared a med school saying. ï¿½if you hear hoof-beats, you donï¿½t think zebras.ï¿½ In other words, sometimes it isnï¿½t what you would expect. You HAVE to look outside the box. Unfortunately when faced with negative results on the last test, and positive results from a not so commonly accepted cause, he wasnï¿½t ready to look for a zebra. So I had to on my own.DONï¿½T DEPEND ON THE DOCTORS TO DO EVERYTHING FOR YOU! GET INVOLVED IN YOUR OWN DIAGNOSIS AND TREATMENT!!!!!Thatï¿½s all I have to say about that.


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2000)

Hi Curvyroads, Hipjanand all others on this debate.I would just like to add that curvy has done all excellent ob of bringing this candida issue to the board, it is timely and well needed.I will add more later But at this time i would just like to say that the drug lamisil curvy mentions does have several side effects and one of then is Liver problems mainly toxicity. It is not a RARE side effect and the manufacturer reccommends monitoring in patients at risk groups. I mentioned the candida theory to my DOc who said that the newer antifungals cause more liver problems than the older ones like nystatin, amphotericin and miconazole. However he was agreed for me to have a trial after the investigations found nothing else...which is a fair comment.The other thing worth mentioning is that although Lamisil is fungicidal against yeasts and other fungi it is only fungistatic against Candida as Sandoz can confirm. Thus it is very effective against fungi in general but just as good as the others like sporanox and miconazole since its only fungistatic against Candida ie it stops them growing ..does not kill Candida.I hope this clears some confusion.


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2000)

Curvyroads,Thanks for replying to my comment. For some info on IBS, stress and mental state, and more candida discussion, check out the Thread now on bottom of page 2 but prob. on p. 3 as you read this, titled "Total load-toxins and illness...moldie". Eric posted some scientific abstracts on this subject worth reading. I put it up actually to suggest that chemical exposure had a role in IBS. Like any dysfunction of the body, there are multiple causes to IBS.


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## RumbleGirl (Feb 1, 2000)

Hi all -I just want to say that I thought I had an internal yeast infection when I first got on the net and looked for information on my symptoms. I don't know if it is a "real illness" or not but whatever it is that I have, I have become completely symptom free by eliminating all carbs and then slowly adding them back one at a time to see what I can tolerate.If any are interested in trying this I have a thread going now "Who has been helped by eating low carb?" where I explain in more detail.I am on no medication and as long as I don't eat the carbs that give me problems, I remain completely symptom free.







Good luck to everyone in finding what works for you...


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2000)

Respose to Can'tWait5:As the only thing I can speak to with personal certainty, is that Lamasil was effective in my case against what by all indications was non-systemic intestinal candidiasis, I will quote the manufacturer's literature on the two Lamisil points you bring out. Not being a pharmacist, I can't debate the point any further:As to Lamasil being both antifulgal and fungicidal -MicrobiologyTerbinafine hydrochloride is a synthetic allylamine derivative. Terbinafine hydrochloride exerts its antifungal effect by inhibiting squalene epoxidase, a key enzyme in sterol biosynthesis in fungi. This action results in a deficiency in ergosterol and a corresponding accumulation of sterol within the fungal cell. Depending on the concentration of the drug and the fungal species tested in vitro, terbinafine hydrochloride may be fungicidal; however, the clinical significance of these data is unknown. In vitro, mammalian squalene epoxidase is only inhibited at higher (4,000-fold) concentrations.Terbinafine has been shown to be active against most strains of the following organisms both in vitro and in clinical infections of the nail. Trichophyton rubrumTrichophyton mentagrophytesBlood and tissue levels of terbinafine following oral dosing with Lamisilï¿½ 250 mg QD exceed in vitro MIC's against most strains of the following organisms which can infect the nail; however, the efficacy of terbinafine in treating nail infections due to these organisms has not been studied in controlled clinical trials. Epidermophyton floccosum Microsporum gypseumMicrosporum nanumTrichophyton verrucosumCandida albicansScopulariopsis brevicaulisAs to it's liver related side effects, yes any prudent doctor will put you on routine liver tests (as did mine with consistantly negative results), Novartis' findings were that there is a 3.3% incidence of liver enzyme abnormalities in the Lamisil group, compared to a 1.4% in the placebo group for an increase above normal of 1.9%. In 0.2% of the Lamisil cases, discontinuance of the drug was required to normalize liver enzyme abnormalities, compared to 0.0% in the placebo group.There are always risks with any medical prescription or procedure. Before trying the treatment myself, I researched these points, questiond others who had been on oral Lamasil for periods ranging from 1 week to 90 days, and was satisfied with the risk profile in MY case. I found no incidence of ANY side effects in the people I talked to about it, the two doctors I talked to who have prescribed it numerous times for other conditions, or my own experience.But it is an individual decision for each person.If you are interested in Novartis' details on Lamasil, go to this link: http://www.lamisilinfo.com/lampi.htm


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## britta (Aug 8, 1999)

My gas and bloating *almost* disappeared after starting acidophilus am and pm on an empty stomach. It may not cure what I have, but, like imodium stops the D (at times) the whole candida concept and acidophilus remedy has been a wonderful relief from the smelly gas and painful bloating.Thanks for the wealth of info on it!britta


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2000)

Update:For the last couple months, I have been making public my experience with so-called IBS for the last 20 years, my research, where it lead me, and what finally provided relief. As you know by this thread, it was obviously a fungus, as Lamisil provided immediate and lasting (at least for the last 6 months and continuing) relief. I am pretty well convinced the offending fungus was an intestinal candida albicans infection.A number of people (about 60) have come forward to me from the various places I have posted this information (not just here). They all have different stories, but they fit into two main categories: 1) those who were treated for candidiasis and failed to get results, and 2) those who were treated for candidiasis and had an otherwise unexplainable remission of symptoms.I wanted to share with those of you who are genuinely interested, what my observations were of the stories sent to me.The group of people suspected of a yeast/fungal infection causing their gastrointestinal problems, but who were not helped (long-term) by ï¿½treatmentsï¿½ was the much larger group. This group consisted mostly of people who from what I can tell were not carefully diagnosed, and were mostly treated with ï¿½natural therapies,ï¿½ not antifungals. This group received treatment mostly out of desperation and hopelessness, and usually purchased expensive combinations of herbals, probiotics, and dietary plans. A minority received antifungal therapy using a variety of pharmaceuticals. The smaller group by far, but I feel the better qualified, were those who were successfully treated by pharmaceutical antifungal therapies. I can subdivide this group into two sub groups, those who even with antifungal treatment had unrelenting systemic candidiasis but gastro relief and also had immunodeficiency disorders, and those who experienced complete relief for prolonged periods but had no apparent systemic symptoms or systemic immunodeficiency disorders. The reason I specifically say ï¿½no apparent systemic immunodeficiency disorders,ï¿½ is I have come to believe that there are as yet not understood immunodeficiency disorders which effect only the gastrointestinal tract. This is obvious by inflammatory bowel disorders such as Crohnï¿½s, which is still not fully understood, and can effect only the lining of the intestines. There are many organisms that can live unaffected by the bodyï¿½s immune system, only inside certain areas of the gastrointestinal tract. I believe that there is some specific set of rare circumstances, possibly GI immune system related, whereby certain intestinal conditions exist which open the opportunity for candida or similar yeast/fungus to get a foothold and keep it. Candida albicans is such a common organism, that it is not hard to find a ï¿½seedï¿½ to get the infection started once the opportune environment is created.My observations so far tell me several things, which I feel are very likely: Intestinal non-systemic candidiasis is a rare disorder, but it does exist. Many doctors think that just because a particular condition is very rare, or they donï¿½t understand the mechanisms involved, it doesnï¿½t exist or isnï¿½t worth pursuing. There is probably a small number of people with this condition going untreated for this reason. A number of people try ï¿½naturalï¿½ remedies probably out of desperation, and these do not seem to ï¿½cureï¿½ but may provide temporary relief for various reasons which differ widely. It is possible that a number of people trying these ï¿½naturalï¿½ remedies do not have candidiasis anyway. Since it is not well understood or widely recognized, those who do obtain antifungal therapy and relief are very few. The number of people treated who donï¿½t find relief is quite large due the fact that there is not a widely recognized way to screen people for this disorder, and there are many opportunists out there peddling largely ineffective ï¿½naturalï¿½ treatments.So thatï¿½s what I have gleaned from the responses I have received personally, as a result of my efforts over the last couple months to spread the awareness of my situation and experience.[This message has been edited by curvyroads (edited 02-22-2000).]


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## HipJan (Apr 9, 1999)

Thanks, again, curvyroads, for opening up this subject in detail and for providing well-thought-out and clearly written information.I know you bid farewell, so I don't necessarily expect you to answer... But, if you do, remind me if you still are taking Lamasil. If not, how long have you been off it now? (I have gotten the strong impression from a few others that it can be difficult to get oneself off certain prescription antifungals. Perhaps not so with the Lamasil; perhaps also not so if a person manages to come across a good doctor who understands this.)------------------Cultivate gratitude. Believe in possibilities.


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