# Probiotics



## 15221

Might want to check out these probiotics, they seem to be targeted for serious problems, not just your mild everyday Gastric upsets like most other probiotics are... Personally I have yet to try them but look forward to the experimentation.....The HLC products are powerful probiotics for relief of intestinal health problems. These Human Lactic Commensals (HLC) are human-derived strains including Lactobacillus acidophilus and L. bifidus, and the only product line of their kind in North America. All other probiotics are made from animal or dairy strains and may not adhere as well to the human gastrointestinal tract. These contain no wheat, gluten, dairy, or casein.HLC Intensive is the highest potency HLC product in a capsule and contains no Fructo-oligosacharides (FOS). Each capsule contains a minimum of 30 billion CFU of L. acidophilus, B. bifidum, B. lactis. Each of the three different strains attach in different areas of the epithelial tissue in the intestinal tract (small and large intestines). This probiotic is a microbial replacement program for the gastrointestinal tract intended for 7 to 14 days depending on the severity of the problem. All HLC probiotics contain a substantial increase in potency (double) and no price increase.HLC organisms successfully used in clinical trial Virtually 100% survival through stomach Ability to attach to human epithelial cells Long shelf stability and full label claim within 6 months at room temperature Independent verification of specification with every batch Suitable for vegans and those sensitive to dairy (casein) and wheat (gluten) Tips from the Nutritionist These are the most potent probiotic capsules you'll find anywhere. They are my favorite since when I need to take probiotics, I want the strongest stuff available. No messing around. I used these HLC Intensive caps along with Broad Spectrum Complex by Pharmax to get rid of parasites I got while in Peru. On several occasions, I have offered my house guests HLC Intensive when they have serious indigestion, and within 30-60 mintues they have no more symptoms.Read important information about HLC Probiotics: Research, Storage and Shipping infoRead Q &A's about HLC probiotics on our blog. (enable pop-ups) Ingredients and Suggested Use Each capsule contains: HLC LAB4 Consortium......24 billion viable cells (may contain up to 30 billion) L. acidophilus CUL 60L. acidophilus CUL 21 Bifidobacterium bifidum CUL 20 Bifidobacterium lactis CUL 34 Other Ingredients: cellulose, silica, vegetable magnesium stearate.Recommended intake 1-2 capsules once or twice daily.StorageKeep refrigerated or frozen when possible to extend the shelf life beyond 6 months. More Info About "HLC Intensive caps by Pharmax" HLC Intensive will crowd out yeast and other undesirable organisms which result from use of antibiotics, weakened immune system, poor diet, oral contraceptives, hormone replacement therapy, or chemotherapy. Also helpful for chronic parasitic and fungal infections such as Candida overgrowth. Intensive Phase Take 2-4 capsules daily with meals for 7-14 days. Clinical Considerations During and Post-antibiotic therapy Acute intestinal upset Candidiasis Digestive disturbances (bloating, gas) Parasitic infections Chronic Fatigue Syndrome Bowel problems (constipation, diarrhea, IBS) Intermediate PhaseTake 1-2 capsule daily after all meals. Clinical Considerations Preventing colds and flu Frequent illness Frequent travel Preventing bloating, gas, constipation, diarrhea, & IBS Upset stomach after excessive alcohol consumption Chronic Fatigue Syndrome Candidiasis or yeast overgrowth Stressful life style Preventing parasitic infections Are HLC products shipped with an ice pack?Not usually. This is because after extensive product testing and new freeze drying technology performed by Phamax, it was concluded that the ice pack did not make a difference during shipping since the product potency was still well over 100% label claims when shipped with ice or no ice. The manufacturer states that it is no longer necessary to ship the HMF products with an ice pack for these reasons: Pharmax has added in 50% more probiotic than what the label guarantees per bottle. For example, HLC Caps are guaranteed to have 6 billion L. acidophilus per serving, but there are 12 billion present at time of manufacturing and it is kept frozen until shipping. October 2004: The manufacturer has increased product stability again, allowing the probiotics to last up to 6 months at room temperature holding their GUARANTEED minimum potency on label! You will receive your HLC probiotic directly from the manufacturer in about 3-5 days. This product is very fresh and has not been sitting around on our shelves. And, you are guaranteed it will contain 50% more than what the label states.How do I travel with my HLC probiotics?We highly recommend you take your probiotics with you on all trips and vacations since their potency will last for up to 6 months at room temperature un-refrigerated. But, when possible and if convenient, we recommend you store your probiotics in the freezer or refrigerator, especially if you plan to preserve freshness of your product for months or years.


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## Arnie W

Thank you so much for that information.I did a very quick google search, mainly to check for pricing. Other HLC probiotics have FOS, so HLC Intensive would have to be the way to go, even though it is a lot more expensive than the others.I'll continue to watch this space in anticipation.


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## cat crazy

This is great info. Want to hear from anyone who has tried it. Like Arnie I'm also waiting in anticipation.


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## 15221

ARnie & Hanna, Are you guys taking any Vitamin C and or any Bioflavnoids....? Once you get your allergens as close to normal and are consuming a good probiotic I think Mark, or overitnow said long ago something in these Flavnoids help shut down the mast cells from degranulating so frequently....funny I scoffed at this idea a few years ago after it did not work....but at this moment I am leaning towards it as I have seen some improvements with them, and hope the results continue....my sinus allergies went crazy this week though, it seems the pollen is lighting up my immune system....the flavnoids are not helping that...so i am on my usual over the counter Antihistamines... These symptoms usually fade after a couple of weeks, but I am considering a product called Nasalcrom, it blocks histamine release by coating the cells with a solution of sodium....and they also cell a product called gastrocrom which you need a prescription for but it does the same things in your gut, therefore stopping the release of histamine there....I wonder why no IBSers have experimented with this in the search for such cures...I can't even imagine asking a gastro hey why not try this...they would probably laugh but I might if my healing stalls....in the meantime good luck with your home chemistry and microbiology projects hope I have been able to re-shed some light on this bugger of a syndrome....


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## overitnow

I don't think I have ever posted anything about mast cells; but I do remember some reference to degranulation from someone.As far as flavonoids are concerned, they ARE very hard to absorb. The bromelain and the fungals are included to boost that (400%) and that absorbancy and it's biological effect is what got the Provex it's patent. I know it can be offputting because of "customer marketing concerns" and you may want to shop around; but if you want to test flavonoids for effectiveness, it makes the most sense to use the most effective ones. And, sadly, they don't do a darn thing for my respiratory system, either.Good luck with the probiotics, btw. I'm hoping we can all join T on her mountaintop one day soon.Cheers, from the pollen capitol of Canada.Mark


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## Misty B

Does anyone out there take Flora Source, by Nutrihealth? I've taken it for months now & it seems to have really helped. A friend led me to it as it helped him. Start with 2 a day on an empty stomach.


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## 23392

Hey Talissa [otherwise known as Mistress of Arcane Probiotic Knowledge ], Cats, anyone else: I've been reading various back posts and trying to remember/take notes, but I'm going a bit fuzzy.I remember that not all lactobacilli are anti-inflammatory-wise helpful; in fact some are pro-inflammatory.But does anyone have a short list of *which* probiotics are anti-inflammatory...or which ones just they are using that are?Thanks in advance!


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## Talissa

Hey optimist, I like the new name--will have to change to that... Well ok, maybe not, I'm still a novice. Makes me understand the saying, "The more I learn, I realize the less I know."







I'll -try- to keep this succinct. And it could be all wrong.







Let me know if you want any studies to back this up...Anti-inflammatory probiotics vary greatly among strains, and then to confound matters, among subtypes of strains.From my research & knowledge to date, these probiotics are...Always Proinflammatory to varying degrees~L. AcidophilusL. Gasseri(sp?..in yogurt)probiotic E ColiLactococcus lactis Always Anti-inflammatory to varying degrees~L. Rhamnosus GG(culturelle)L. ParacaseiL. CaseiS. Boularddii Lyo(florastor)B. Infantis strain 35624(Bifantis/Align)B. LongumB. BifidumB. PseudocatenulatumCan go Either Way depending on subtype of strain~L. Reuteri(I use Nature's way with AMAZING results for my bloating. I have to take 6 caps before bed , w/ less it doesn't work. I have to guess that this part subtype of L. Reuteri is antiinflammatory)L. SalivariusB. InfantisB. Lactis B. Breve S. Thermophilus Has no/low immune activation of cytokine production~L. PlantarumB. AdolescentisCustoms just called to let me know my order came in. so along w/ florastor & Primadophilus Reuteri, I'll be taking a bifidobacterium mix soon.


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## 15221

Hey Tal... You know that list made me think about something and E Coli...I was low in my EC levels last time I was tested but I had a different Coli....Haemolytic E Coli...now I don't know much about this bacteria other than it is thriving in my gut and has taken over from E-coli....well how could E-Coli be always pro-inflammatory when it is a neccessary element of any Human GI tract...? Obviously it needs to be somewhere in the gut to help digest something...mainly meat I am sure....so it must be neutral or not inflammatory to living GI Cells somewhere down the line of the GI tract, but perhaps getting there causes a good bit of inflammation along the way, or in over populations....For myswlf have not yet ordered the human variation of the probiotics....still taking custom probiotics....nasty taste...and wish he would put the mix in a pill, mixing is a pain and a waste as this stuff sticks like heck to the glass, spoon, anything else it comes into contact....The Quercetin is still seeming to help though I have not seen any more decrease in IBS symptoms, still tha same as I was a week ago....better but not completely normal, still unpredictable....will try the Mangosteen extract someday soon, has a few unique flavinoids... and the Pycogenols....Flavay...The French maritime pine bark supplement...supposedly also has anti-histamine effect....we shall see if we can turn down the histamine alarms and get the GI tract a bit less irritated.....


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## Kathleen M.

Well I think the inflamatory properties may not be the one and only thing one would need to consider when deciding if a bacteria is "good for you".We are talking a complex ecosystem, and it is likely that some things needed in the mix may not always be only the ones that reduce inflamation.There are a number of roles that they play and it is unlikely that by picking one attribute to focus on you select the best set to have that does the best for all things.Sometimes what makes something "bad" in one respect has to do with what makes them "good" for something else.It would be nice to have a full picture of what exactly makes the optimal human gut flora, but I do not think we are that close to having the whole picture of what normally lives in there, much less what all of them do and what mix of functions is optimal.Just my two cents.K.


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## Talissa

Hey ng,Ditto what K says above & at the risk of being redundant~~Being a Pro-Inflammatory probiotic is NOT bad. It's great for fighting tumors & cancer. Its very helpful to help fight off viruses and pathogens. Its when the pathogens &/or probiotics trigger a Th1(inflammatory)_ polarization_ that taking anitinflammatory probiotics may be helpful--like the bifantis study suggests. The Th1 polarization has been implicated in IBS. A chronic level of inflammation via IL12 & IL6 for ex, and low IL10 & IL4...Although its also possible to have Th2 polarization with low inflammatory cytokine response(but this hasn't yet been seen in IBS or IBD)...So this is one way to attempt to use the probiotics in a targeted therapeutic way...And it may be way off base--but aren't we all just looking for a solution? I've read from an alternative med site that the Th1/Th2 hypothesis is oversimplified and its manipulation is dooomed to fail...I've also read in a study that when the dentric cells are monocyte derived, gram-positive probiotics don't have any effect on them at all...makes me wish I knew what the heck monocyte derived means!







So, as you can see, the study of probiotics in humans is still in its infancy. Loads to learn still.I'm just trying this out for now & so far so good! I feel amazingly normal. But still not "cured", because I still need the supplements. And I'd still like to one day no longer need to take supplemental fiber!! I have the occasional bloated day still. But other than that, I couldn't be happier.I know you'll get to this place ng....w/ that determination of yours!T-


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## 15026

I think the disastrous and distressing results of the recent clinical trial of TGN1412, an intended anti-inflammatory drug, by Parexel at Northwick Park in London, show that we don't really understand inflammatory processes very well.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGN1412


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## Talissa

TRR--I really hope you're not comparing natural probiotics to the synthetic drugs of that devastating trial...I didn't need to use the link. That was heartbreaking.And you're right, ONE of the things it brings into harsh light is our lack of grasp on inflammation...So sad.


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## 15026

I think it's a little misleading to contrast "natural probiotics" with "synthetic drugs" in this case. TGN1412 is a "natural" substance, in that it's just a ruddy great protein molecule, made by living cells (a hybrid cell line in vitro). It was supposed to produce lots of (anti-inflammatory)IL10, just like the "good" probiotics!


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## Talissa

OMGTGN1412 belongs to a *completely novel * class of *synthetic antibodies * - the company trademarked the name superMABS - which researchers thought might revolutionize the treatment of leukemia and rheumatoid arthritis. http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/04/07/news/drug.phpProbiotics have never almost killed healthy males, nor wrecked their immune systems. It's irrational to make such a comparison.


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## 23392

> quote:I've also read in a study that when the dentric cells are monocyte derived, gram-positive probiotics don't have any effect on them at all...makes me wish I knew what the heck monocyte derived means!


 You remind me what dentric cells are, and I'll explain monoctye-derived for you, hokay?


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## Talissa

> quote:hokay?










Well, it might be that you don't remember dendric cells because I mis-spelled it!It's _dendritic_ cells and they serve to digest or degrade the simpler antigens, present antigens on their surfact to T-cells, & for the purpose of this discussion, they secrete immune system cytokines--either Th1 or Th2...Wikipedia has helped a bit with the monocyte-derived distinction~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendritic_cellHere's the study which raises the issue~http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsumAnd here's another study which says basically the opposite, but also points out how the probiotics get all the study & the effect of enterobacteriaceae(like my bacteria)is largely overlooked~"These much divergent DC stimulation patterns among intestinal bacteria, which encompass both antagonistic and synergistic relationships, support the growing evidence that the composition of the gut flora affects immune regulation _and that compositional imbalances may be involved in disease etiology_."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsumECs are also involved in how DCs respond~"In contrast, when MoDCs are incubated with ECs and bacteria in a transwell coculture system, and can contact directly the bacteria across stimulated EC monolayers, they are more inflammatory as they release IL-12 and IL-10 and induce both Th1 and Th2 responses. These results suggest that ECs are not simply a barrier to bacteria entering via the oral route, but they actively influence the activating properties of DCs."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsumWould love to see some black & white in all of this, but I don't think its gonna happen...


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## 15026

Not sure why the "OMG" - a little patronising, I would say, especially given that your IHT link had considerably less science in it than my Wikipedia one! (and Wikipedia aint exactly graduate stuff.....)TGN1412 has been hyped as a new class of "superagonist" as it doesn't need a costimulatory antigen to activate T-cells. But how do you imagine these antibodies are made??Incidentally, I'm certainly _not_ suggesting that ingesting so-called probiotic bacteria will lead to a catastrophic overstimulation of your immune system. However, I do think that if you were to see how & where they are made, or grown, and compare it to the method of manufacture of monoclonal antibodies, or other mass produced proteins such as tPA, TNF or interferon, you'd be hard put to distinguish them. And I suspect some of your favourite bugs are less natural, and more Frankensteinian than you - or I - suspect.PS Actually, I should emphasise, since you felt you knew all about about the subject, and that therefore my link wasn't worth pursuing, that whereas the IHT link was a word-for-word, shock/horror, medical disaster story, of the type seen in most British newspapers recently, the Wikipedia one is a description of the mode of action of TGN1412, with an overview of the animal test results, the background to the clinical trial, and the recent report of the MHRA on the trial.http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/04/07/news/drug.phphttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGN1412


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## 17176

Hello and welcome richard


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## Talissa

Hey Richard,I'm sorry if the OMG offended you. That was my shock at a seemingly intelligent person comparing something not found in nature, nor the human body, and saying its "in this case. TGN1412 is a "natural" substance".The drug is a type of monoclonal antibody. They are made by man, maybe the starting point is natural, but then it becomes something unreal & not naturally found in human nor animal bodies. And there has been supposed success with them for ctn diseases. However it seems in the case of TGN1412, they took it one/a 1000 steps further making it a superagonist. It did something no other antigen found in nature nor lab can do--stimulated ALL the T-cells simultaneously in the entire body...I hope you approve of this reference~http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn8863...ial-horror.htmlSynthetic probiotics are on the horizon(yipee), but not here yet.Natural probiotics cannot be compared to TGN1412.


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## 15026

Im sorry, talissa, but my suspicion is that you still dont understand the process of synthesis of these molecules.You cant just say "..then it becomes something unreal.." because, please excuse me, that is a meaningless statement.These are large protein molecules, synthesised via the (relatively) normal immune response of a cell line - Im guessing mouse+, but it could be rabbit+ - and then subject to the normal biochemical/chemical isolation/cleaning processes; the same as factor VIII, insulin, tPA, etc. AFAIK, there is no subsequent synthetic chemical modification of these molecules; I reckon, had you had knowledge or evidence to the contrary, you would have presented it. But if you have, I would be interested to read it. It is a called a "superagonist" purely because of its effect, not because of any chemical modification. It has not, AFAIK (and I welcome informed contradiction), been significantly, if at all, chemically modified.Yes, its very potent. Yes, its effects are clearly contrary to what was assumed. FWIW, I cant understand why it wasnt more extensively tested on human cell lines in vitro. Perhaps someone can enlighten us thereof. But it aint a chemically synthesised molecule in the way that Prozac, ibuprufen, altenolol, many vitamin supplements, diazepam, - and one or two other entities, small & large are.The problem with TGN1412, as I understand it, is that its species specificity was not fully appreciated before the (human) clinical trial. I knew nothing about the drug before the disastrous trial, but it seems to me that somebody missed a trick somewhere. My caveat is that I have no idea how many successful, or at least uneventful, drug trials have proceeded on similar premises.PS Why do you say "synthetic probiotics are... not here yet" ? I think we need to agree a definition of "synthetic" in this context before I would let that one pass unchallenged.


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## Talissa

TRR,Acc to posting guidelines, I cannot go any further with this debate, because they suspend/permanently ban members for such behavior. We've both stated our views.I'm agreeing to (utterly & completely) disagree with you.Have a good one, T-


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## 15221

Now... now... people... play nicely...Wicked study, think they would have had a better idea what the side effects could have meant to subjects before they put that through that heck....I remember see it on the BBC...Anyway back to our little bacterial world....I agree it is much more than just getting a little bit of this and that...it is probably a long haul of consuming lots of beneficial organisms, and how do we deem them such...well hopefully our individual GI tracts will respond positively...I think I over consumed cashews during the last year, and I am showing negative reactions, not terrible, but not good so I am without my favorite nut now for 6 weeks...I'll let you know if things rebound, I love those little fat pills...anyway Tal in Kath thanks for the info....I know where your coming from just bouncing it around for otherd to get a little information...


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## Talissa

Hey ng, Yeah, sorry we hi-jacked your thread.







And really sorry about the cashews!Tal


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## Talissa

NG, How's it going? Anything new to report? Able to eat cashews again, I hope? Have you tried the new probiotics? Hope you're doing really well. T-...OT, again--if anyone's interested, it looks like the drug co &/or the co. that ran the near-fatal drug trial -which is discussed _way_ too much on this thread & I promise not to revisit it anymore after this update







- held back known risk info from the study participants. This sad tale is reported in bloomberg's~~http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=spe...kL4U&refer=news


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## 15221

Hello T, Yeah it has been kind of quite around here lately, in my case no news is not good news...I wish I could report positive changes but I do have something someone might find of interest. The Quercetin Bromelain combo seems to have changed things in the gut, I had some bad experiences with not getting enough fiber and I think my ph got way out so a few days of D....that had me set back....so I am just redoubling my probiotic efforts and eating more salads....the high level of cytokine release is still keeping me from adding other fruits, corn fiber, etc.....I am ordering the Human derived strains today as my stocks are running low...soon to be making more yogurts, and perhaps you might have some experience with te Pycogenols....grape seed or French Maritime Tree...? I was also thinking a new shot increasing my bioflavinoid selection, they all seem to effect in different ways, products like Mangosteen are not reduced enough to single out high enough concentrations of certain flavins, flavones, God the variations are mind warping....but in the no stone unturned approach to self healing I must say carry on...one more note, went through a week of hard knocks so I start checking out classical homeopathy, Eric posted a thread a while back, but it is an interesting concept....I just could not see that methodolgy working on IBS, but it might have some clinical worth as many people do prescribe to its merits and well it does have a credible following of some sorts....whats your take on it T......


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## Talissa

Hey ng, Thx for responding & the update--one day you will knock this thing(or throw a blanket over it







)...Saw this program on dateline about bacteria in lettuce, even cleaned, it can be -in- the leaves...making me rethink all the lettuce based salads I eat for sure. The quercetin/bromelain did a number on you? That's ironic. I started taking it again, although not as much, and haven't had a problem. KOW. Are you sure it was the flavonoids?Re: homeopathy, Eric did a thread on it? That'd be cool. There's actually a naturopath on the island that does homeopathy, and I haven't ever gone to her. I guess that gives you a clue. I tried to study up on it when I first came to the bb, because kel swore by it, but it didn't make any sense to me. I tried it on my dog--yes, she went to a homeopathic practioner(I was desperate) & it didn't work for her(no placebo effect for dogs!)Anyways, I'm open to learning more abt homepathy. I think that, if it works, it depends on the skill of the doctor to a large extent. You added corn fiber? You don't mean psyllium, which is an HERB, do you? I have a picture to prove it.







I think corn derivatives may be/was a major trigger for me & that's why I did so well going whole foods(I know HFCS does me in--that was the easiest & most ctn trigger from the start for me. I'll never touch the stuff willingly again. Alcohol too.).I was looking up something unrelated & came across this site & then checked out some threads including~http://www.glutenfreeforum.com/lofiversion...php/t16736.htmlIt's a really interesting discussion. (& the peeps there can disagree tactfully & w/ respect! I was impressed.)...Avoiding all possible corn derivatives though would mean a diet even stricter than the SCD. That'd be really really tough.See you later, hope today is great for you,T-


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## 15221

Hey T... Thanks for the encouragement....but since I last posted I have had a few more bad days and I am almost sure I have to start a rotation diet if I am going to get any better...one day one area of food....second day a completely different food, all the way to day four....I knew about this a couple years ago and Dr. Dantini was right.....I just did not heed the warning and had to find out for myself....now I think I know....just read a womans web site who went through this same thing...and unfortunately her son as well....she had Chrons Disease...he just had bad allergies...if you want I will forward the link....she also talks about a therapy called LDA...was called EPD but this country the FDA screwed it up but it is still used in Europe...closest DR. to me that uses it is 2hrs away so I will think about and see how the rotation goes...in fact I am going to rotate all my supplements and even probiotics....it finally makes sense to me that when we are in a state of dysbosis, there has to be immune reactions going on and if we keep insulting the immune system day in and day out it is going to turn even the normally safest of foods.....so all you mind brain gut axis kings can stick that little feather of insight into your cap and do a little jig....Its got a hell of lot more to do with inflammation than it does with the brain....2 cents..


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## Talissa

ng, I was -just- thinking about the allergens and how I should really try to not eat any of the same foods 2 days in a row, seeing as how I know about the antigens...duh...but every 4 days in the true "food rotation diet" is even better. I cringe though, about rotating the supps! I don't think I'd do that with probiotics, but you could be in the right here....it makes perfect sense. I hope you do it, and let us know how it goes. I'm excited, this may be the one thing to help you the most! I'll try my best to do it too, but it will be hard here on the rock. I will give it my best shot though--I'll get organized, bring out a new food journal, plan detailed daily meunus, and then hope I can find the foods.







If anyone else is interested here's some info on the rotation diet acc to Elson Haas, M.D~~"The Ideal Diet is discussed thoroughly in Part Three of Staying Healthy with Nutrition, and is the focus of my book, A Cookbook for All Seasons. It is very good for weight reduction and maintenance for most people--a well-balanced diet that incorporates aspects of all the previous diets. It is a rotation diet, good for food allergies; has a high fiber content from the whole grains and vegetables; is low in fat; and contains good-quality protein. To reduce calories more, the morning nut snack can be replaced with another fruit.So the plan would look like:Early morning â€" one or two pieces of fruit Breakfast â€" starch, such as a cereal grain or potatoes Mid-morning snack â€" fruit (or nuts or seeds) Lunch â€" protein and green and other vegetables Mid-afternoon snack â€" vegetable or fruit Dinner â€" starch or protein with vegetable Evening snack, if needed â€" vegetable Water should be consumed as usual â€" 8 to 10 glasses per day, mainly drunk about one hour before meals. A basic multivitamin/mineral supplement."http://www.elsonhaas.com/articles/article_08.htmlThe particular foods should not be eaten again for the next full 3 days, ie, you eat chicken for lunch & dinner on Monday, then no chicken again until Friday...Re: the low-dose antigen(LDA) therapy, which I'd never heard of until today







, yes the link would be great. I'd love to know how that would help someone w/ crohn's. Thanks for reminding me of the true rotation diet....of course, I'm thinking in the back of my mind--yes! this may be what it takes to get me off the fiber...







Have a great wkd, thanks for being here, T-


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## 15221

Hey T... Well thanks for the nod I am all over the place in my thoughts on the matter but I am doing my best to rotate my diet...It is a little difficult but I think it is appropriate for the healing process to occur....I really have no choice as my other methods did not show much promise....acyually I was getting much worse...I think my tendencies towards a meat diet have brought about too much in the way of a shift in bacterial populations, and the probiotics could not overcompensate so I am eating any veggies my bod can handle in moderation with my fingers crossed....rotating diets and rotating heads....details later nice web page with much info most of it we have already been exposed too but it packages it up nicely for someone looking for a place to start, with some hope for the future www.food-allergy.org/page2.html


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## 15221

Hey gang figured I ask a couple of questions for my own knowledge. On the HCL probiotics after coming off the antibiotics, things were down hill....I am also on a rotaion diet and icorporating some new and varied foods that I have not had in long time, results are a bit mixed and here is my question....Have any of you in your past experiences had one or two normal days and then like my own self have one or two great bowel movements almost completely normal and then the bowel seems to act up as though all the lack of movement was causing like a toxic reaction and thus precipitating movement.....a friend of mine who had a mild form of colitis would be constipated for a few days and then would have a bad BM day...but I have not had the alternating thing much in my life and not sure whether it is food related or bowel environment related....I felt so good for two days then right back to step one...anyway getting ready to send out a culture to Great Smokies to see where I stand with the bacterial counts....Thanks for your Imput


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## Talissa

Hey ng, I'm sorry I've got no answers/opinions on your question. I wish I did. It's a really good question... But I'm glad you've gone for another test. I should too. Just to see...Tal


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## Kathleen M.

Hard to say, but often the alternating is more a stool consistancy sort of thing rather than any toxic buildup or any other issue.The bowel can sense what is going on with it, and I think that often when it does back up it will "flush" out and that is a normal pattern. The problem is the flush can set you up to be constipated again as there isn't enough fiber in what is left in the colon to keep the water balance going, so things over dry, then flush than over dry then flush.For most alternators preventing the constipation seems to be the key to breaking the cycle.K.


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## 15221

Thanks for the info...Another question that I am sure is in my brain somewhere but it is nice to hear from someone else....I had this wild idea the other day to eat some wild rice with my fish...good portion for lunch and dinner....man did I pay the price....Now according to some allergy theories I had not had rice for over a year in any large quantities so my body should have lost its reaction or should I say my intollerance....but not being able to break down that rice I am sure it moved down as Elaine and SCD crew would say fed the bad guys...now I never read her book, I am going to because there are many details I need clarified...apparently the bad bugs were fed and when they are fed with such a large magnitude of starch they must release toxins that the body remembers due to the fact they are probably fed by many other sources of food....and the reaction becomes nasty...well it triggers reactions all over urinary, joints, heart rate, etc....really wild so I am waiting for the CDSA and I think I will stick to the SCD on a rotational basis to see what happens next....I was considering trying the alternative grains...Cassava, Amaranth, Yam, etc because some have been able to tolerate them but for now I think the premise that all complex carbs are going to be a problem....There are some missing links in this process as far as IBS is concerned wish a few more qualified authors were out there putting it all together instead of bits and pieces which is what we have....as far as I know Elaine Gotshall is the most accomplished in this explanation of a microbial relation to our foods....


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## Talissa

ng--Back in the day, wild rice was one thing which always brought on a bad attack. Reg rice seemed fine. Like alcohol & HFCS, its one thing I won't even try again to see if I can handle now. The memories..<shudder>..just too vivid.







Btw, had a bit of a rough time "coming off" florastor again. You know how you feel better on antibiotics? I'm that way w/ good antibacterials... So, I went back to my first light in the tunnel 7 years ago--Paragone by Renewlife. I also found some old iFlora(my probiotic of choice b4 coming to this bb) that doesn't expire until Aug this year. Btn the 2 products, things are nice & normal again.I don't think I'll be taking Florastor again unless there's a situation(life & death) where I need to take antibiotics again...While I'm in this stream of consciousness frame of mind, I also want to add that I believe this problem w/ crohn's, the abnormal reaction to enteric bacteria(that wouldn't bother normals), is the problem w/ many if not all those w/ IBS. It explains why you feel better while on antibiotics or antibacterials, and also why getting rid of the bacteria found in stool tests doesn't solve the problem. No adult has a sterile gut--there will always be enterics, either transient or residents...Although, I did find a fairly scary study on my badass bacteria, Citrobacter Freundii, which said it can cause colonic lesions which can lead to colon cancer....yikes. I try not to think about it since I'm feeling well. But that is the real reason I'd kind of like to take another stool test...Thx for listening(or not)







Take it easy, Tal


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## 14217

Hey NG,I always learn a lot from your posts, thanks.You are way over my level in knowledge about all this. But I did want to pass on that I have been doing SCD. I have had no grains, no sugar for 5 weeks. Then, after much research and reflection, I started the SCD intro diet yesterday. As far as I can tell, the purpose of the intro diet is to "rest" your gut and set you up to identify the foods that are causing problems. The SCD is helping. I don't have any huge improvements but some things seem to be getting better. For the past 5 days, I've only had 2 headaches a day as opposed to the 4 or 5 I was having, that has really made a huge difference. I'm hoping to get some gut improvements from the intro diet. Anyway, just wanted to pass that along.Stokes


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## 14217

Hey Talissa!So glad to hear you are still doing well. It really is inspiring!I just got the first of my lab results a little while ago. One of the things I tested for is neurotransmitters. The results show that 5 or 6 are way out of whack. I am so excited (although I think it is twisted to be excited about finding out that something is wrong but I think most people here understand it)because the neurotransmitter thing explains some of what is going on. And the doctor has always said that neurotransmitters have a lot to do with the gut stuff so maybe I could get some improvement there from working on the neurotransmitters. My serotonin is very low, also epinephrine, that could be why I have so much fatigue and/or depression all the time. Anyway, I have a phone appointment with doctor on Wednesday so am really looking forward to that.Could you explain what this means? It struck me because when I have taken antibiotics in the past I have been better with the gut stuff but only temporarily "It explains why you feel better while on antibiotics or antibacterials, and also why getting rid of the bacteria found in stool tests doesn't solve the problem. No adult has a sterile gut--there will always be enterics, either transient or residents..."Take care, Stokes


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## Talissa

Stokes!"And the doctor has always said that neurotransmitters have a lot to do with the gut stuff so maybe I could get some improvement there from working on the neurotransmitters. My serotonin is very low, also epinephrine, that could be why I have so much fatigue and/or depression all the time. "That's great to have at least some answers! .... There's a pretty interesting book called "The Edge Effect". It's all abt the neurotransmitters and reversing deficiencies/excesses w/ supps and diet. I think you'd like it. I'm of the mind that the problem started in the gut, ergo fix the gut and any brain imbalances fix themselves. But really, why wait if you can't seem to fix the gut prob's. And maybe you're right, & you can prove me wrong(please!)...the gut problems can be corrected if you fix the brain chemicals(naturally)....To clarify my musings above, there are always bacteria in gut. Some potentially bad and some neutral. There are in healthy guts of course, plenty of beneficial bacteria which help regulate the immune reaction to the other bacteria. When the good bugs are lowered, like has been found in IBS, I believe the consequence is similar to what they're finding w/ crohn's disease. There is an abnormal inflammatory response from luminal contact with the enteric(normal, not necess pathogenic) bacteria. This sensitized response is to food, bacteria & yeasts--all of which wouldn't effect the average Joe.ie, they're talking abt IBD here, but I believe esp w/ PI-IBS, that this applies to many of us~~"SUMMARY: Normal, nonpathogenic enteric bacteria induce and perpetuate chronic intestinal inflammation in genetically susceptible hosts with defective immunoregulation, bacterial clearance, or mucosal barrier function. _Altering the composition and decreasing mucosal adherence/invasion of commensal bacteria _ with antibiotics, probiotics, and prebiotics can potentially prevent and treat Crohn disease, pouchitis, and possibly ulcerative colitis, but optimal treatments have not yet been identified."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum...It being genetic is not etched in stone just yet. In my case, I'm convinced its due to the cumulative effect of too many antibiotics over time, as well as possibly birth control pills. And probably a -really- bad diet in my early 20's.







Who knows.Am glad you're going on the SCD. It is very healthy eating! Thx for sharing your test results. Very interesting. Good luck w/ everything, T-


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## overitnow

I think this is pretty good, from the "betterthroughscience" thread:"I am not sure why you think I haven't seen any of the research on the brain-gut axis, or that we don't take it into account. There are several ways to interprete the studies. One is that the brain causes biochemical changes that drive IBS. Another is that there is a feedback loop - biochemical conditions (whether immune response, or other conditions) cause changes in the neural system that cause more biochemical changes that drive IBS. And yet another is that there is a complex combination of the two above options. Further research will probably help illuminate it, but I am betting the picture gets more complicated before it gets clearer."*************When I first started using the flavonoids I found out about a number of people who also used them to control ADD. While I thought that was wonderful, at the time I had no idea what the two conditions would have in common. Years later I spoke with someone from the ADD community who explained that there were neurotransmitter deficiencies in the frontal part of the brain--maybe lobes (?), I no longer remember. By that time I had read enough of eric's postings to know that serotonin was one of said transmitters and was also indicated as a contributor to our condition. It seemed clear to me that while I do not know what affects the production and uptake rates of these chemicals, there could well be a linkage between the two conditions on which the flavonoids work. It is also reasonable to conclude that they are doing something other than simply regulating serotonin; otherwise, the SSRIs would be useable for ADD.Since it seems at least reasonable that once IBS manifests, it becomes a circle, it does make sense to me to attack it in as many ways and locations as possible: gut flora, motility, mouth, brain and hypnosis. If your doc has found these problems, the Provex might well be a solution to that part of the puzzle.Mark


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## 15221

Hey everyone, thanks for the posts...STokes and TallMissa, I believe that we are all pretty much on the same page with where we are and need to be...T...I agree with your hypothesis that we becoming sensitzed to even some of the normal probiotics....The HCl probiotics did seem to change things in the gut, but not neccessarily for the better, just different, so I am not sure they are worth the money....I still have some left that I think I should mix in with the other probiotics.....the gut had many weird signals being effected in a new way that brought on much different pain that I had not felt for a couple of years....something was triggering something....wish we could see but I have couple of weeks before my test comes back....I am trying to eat as much Kefir and Yogurt....rotating foods as much as possible, Goat yogurt, then cows, I'm looking for a Llama or any other animal I can milk...







eating many different veggies and meats...only time will tell....I was reading as much as I could of Dr. Leo Gallands work, man I wished I lived a little closer....T.... I feel for you on that Island, Paradise can have its drawbacks as far as DRs....I can't find any withing 200 miles that have a clue and I am smack in the middle of Metropolis....not many out there like Elaine or Dr. Galland....Stokes....keep up the SCD and if I may prescribe a modicum of advice try to alter your foods in a rotational way...I truly believe this whole thing has an Immune basis that will react to any foods if we eat them too much....the intial insult that pushed us over the edge was like T said a series of insults to the GI tract, for me it was probably Antibiotics for strep throat that was becoming more frequent due to some food allergens and maybe some stress issues....the cycle repeated and became worse with every antibiotic treatment and continued exposure to the same foods that started to worsen as an allergy reaction became more pronounced...by the time I was 24 I needed to do what I am doing now...and I probably would have been fine, but my Drs were not telling me this when I went for my first bout of IBS....things get a little better but overall we continue to slide....till we end up were we are really sick on the inside but look pretty good other wise....As far as the quercetin and other bioflavinoid products that try to stop the reactions I really think I am way past that stage of trying to snuff the system with inhibitors....I need to start from a neutral low reaction diet....SCD rotation is the best I have seen....I pray it works...oh andwith lots of the best microflora our individual bodies seem to tolerate best.....other than that I see no cure....same goes for all the GI diseases, nobody really seems to get better once they hit a certain stage unless they make serious changes in their diets....ome more thing about the ADD...I had it and the older I got the worse it became, as my allergies became worse my thinking was distracted the body was too busy fighting off perceived pathogens to become completely focused on learning....and the drugs that treat ADD do very little compared to diet interventions and we can draw many commonalities with other diseases that are made worse by food reactions.....that many in the medical community ignore....so bask to T... when I think for a minute that if I feel better when on Antibiotics and you on GSD....we are stopping a reaction to many substances that all our bacteries produce and mitigate....how do we heal if this is continually going on....?


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## 14217

Hey NG,I was thinking about you and the rotation diet thing this morning!In doing a bit of research on Lyme disease, I found this site.http://members.aol.com/SynergyHN/index.htmlAnd this quote from that site:"The first thing to help me improve was learning how to deal more effectively with food allergies/sensitivities and intolerances. What I finally found after trying a lot of different rotation diets and elimination diets, was that the usual rotation diet, where you only eat a particular food every 4 or 5 days, only made things worse. Itâ€™s fine for preventing allergies from developing, but not if you are already allergic or sensitive to almost everything."Can you point me to something that explains the rationale/whatever for the rotation diet?See for me the above quote makes much more sense. And I seem to do better when I eat the same foods over and over. I started the NAET in August 2004, I was allergic to every item that I tested for, on the initial test. At first, the substances were basic stuff like Vitamin C, Vitamin B complex, etc. Then moved on to substances like gluten, wheat, gliadin, etc. I was allergic to everything but did "clear" the allergy after the treatment and avoidance period. It seems like I was already too far gone with the allergy stuff. And I still do not understand why I have all these allergies. I do not have leaky gut, did the Great Smokies test for it and reviewed the results with the doctor 2 weeks ago.Anyway, rambling some, just trying to understand more about the rotation diet.I agree with you final question, it does seem like a viscious cycle. A big part of it for me is not knowing what is causing all this. I often wonder if I am "treating" the wrong thing.Stokes


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## 15221

Hey Stokes, well as with everything there are exceptions, but especially when it deals with very complex situations like the human immune system....having said that I don't see how that person could rationally state that when allergic to everything, that rotating would make their allergies worse....for instance I have pollen allergies, if I am exposed to pollen for the first few days of the season I am very bad but as the pollen counts fade I get better and perhaps my immune system does some adjusting as well....insulting the immune system day in and day out is not something I can say is more likely to help heal....now the one woman who I am basing alot of this experience on said some DR.s put people on 7 to 10 day rotation diets for people who are very allergic....but then again arguments can be brought up that it would be too long....so much we do not know I can only go by my own experience and that of others and so far I am not a good example but time will tell.....and yes I am sure I am reacting to certain vitamins as well so I take them a couple of days and stop....so Stokes trial and error is all we really have....alot of error......Tallissa.....is that Iflora the stuff made by Sedona Labs...? I was thinking about trying them someday as well...


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## Talissa

NG, So glad you're rotating your foods as much as poss--it's hard isn't it? You don't realize how often you eat the same things--I'm trying just 2 day rotations & even that's tricky sometimes.


> quote:T.... I feel for you on that Island, Paradise can have its drawbacks as far as DRs....I can't find any withing 200 miles that have a clue and I am smack in the middle of Metropolis.


YES! Thank You. It IS hard, for doctors(for the tests anyways), for food, for supplements, for a clean environment...we're having trash pickup issues right now. In the past 6 weeks, our trash has been collected -two times- ugh. It's like that all over the island. No one's saying what the problem is...With all this bacteria talk, it makes lack of sanitation here even more irritating! I literally live in an area called "paradise estate." Its a joke. We had no power last night. A few days ago, no water. I haven't been able to buy lettuce in about month. And we just had fresh green beans here for the first time in over a year....Break-ins are rampant...I saw a goat get intentionally hit by a speeding car last week...I'm bottle-feeding 3 orphaned pups right now, something I'm very familiar with because even though we've raised $$$ for peeps to take their dogs in to be fixed, they still let them have litters & then dump them somewhere(or much worse.)Oooh, sorry, don't know what happened there. You hit a hot botton. I have family who don't get why we need vacations--they think we're always on vacation because we live in this "paradise". I could write a book on how non-paradise-like this "paradis" is. ....so once again, thx for listening(or not).It makes me feel a -bit- better though ng, to know that even living in metropolis(civilization), there are still problems finding exactly what you want. Though I'm sorry for that for you--you know what I mean...


> quote:T... when I think for a minute that if I feel better when on Antibiotics and you on GSD....we are stopping a reaction to many substances that all our bacteries produce and mitigate....how do we heal if this is continually going on....?


That Q hit me the other day. My conclusion is that until those amazing biochemists out there figure out more about our bacterial innards, I -am- going to have to take GSE forever. I wish I could take this Paragone forever, everyday. I feel so good on it. But you can only take it twice p/year, at 45 days each. I'm pretty sure this is due to the wormwood in it...


> quote:is that Iflora the stuff made by Sedona Labs...?


Yep. Good stuff. I should never have let kel talk me out of them! I'm taking 4 b4 bed ev night with 2 p reuteris. Mornings are so much nicer w/ probiotics! I remember I used to get up an hour early just to empty myself out before others were up. So glad that's done(kow)...I am starting though to feel good about just keeping this "IBS" under control. Accepting it & surrendering the need to be completely cured of it. Very Zen, no?







I should just be grateful I'm not as sick as I once was. And grateful I didn't listen to my first & only GI...he was an idiot though. There are others out there who are better, I'd like to think...And while being Zen, I am -trying- to be grateful for where I live. The coconut trees, the breezes, the ocean, etc. I have a ways to go yet w/ that one...See you later. Sorry for babbling--when feeding the pups, I get reflective.







T-


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## 14217

Tal- that is so wonderful that you take care of abandoned puppies! My kids and I volunteer at an animal rescue no-kill shelter here, spending time there is a real highlight for me. We ended up adopting a Katrina dog from that shelter. We were going to be her foster parents for a while. It took about 2 weeks of fostering before we decided to adopt her!I had no idea that your island had all those problems. I always think of the Caribbean as a really awesome place to be, shows how much I know.I am going to continue thinking through the rotation diet thing, probably won't do anything about it until I get the rest of the lab results and know more about what is going on. I'm doing the SCD intro right now and it is really restricted. Just finishing the third day, so far my symptoms are much worse, maybe more die off. If symptoms stay worse, I will probably bag the intro and go back to regular SCD. With regular SCD, it would be possible to do the rotation.Got some more of the my lab results, the blood chemistry stuff. Everything looks okay but it's hard for me to really understand it all.Mark- the blood chemistry had my cholesterol at 179, I was excited about that. I am going to talk to the doctor about the Provex. I agree with what you said about treating it on several fronts, I think that will definitely be the case for me.I have definitely had a lot of error! Nine years into it, I have yet to find something that makes a positive difference that lasts past 2 weeks.Stokes


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## Talissa

> quote:We ended up adopting a Katrina dog


Yay! That's so great. I felt so bad for all of those animals. Am glad you were able to do that. We just gave $$$ from here. Fostering then ending up keeping--that happens so often. Love it. Although we've got a full animal house already, so keeping isn't really an option for us anymore unfortunately. I wish I could be like Kim Bassinger & keep them all(I've read she has about 40 dogs)...Do you ever watch the Dog Whisperer(Cesar Milan) on the national geographic channel? He's amazing & I've learned alot. His techniques work & the energy info even works w/ children & other people. It's fascinating. But he's helped some Katrina dogs as well. Even found the owners of one dog...I hope you get to feeling better really soon. You've certainly got the intention...I couldn't survive on the SCD intro diet either. If my memory is right, it was because I got too weak on it. Was a long time ago. At least your blood work came up w/ nothing worrisome.I know you'll find something to help soon... The GSE never helped at all? Besides being antibacterial & antifungal, it's also antiinflammatory. It's been shown in studies to lower inflammation as well as lessen colonic lesions...Well, gotta run now. T-


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## 14217

I've seen the Dog Whisperer a few times and really enjoyed it. It's amazing what he can do.The shelter we volunteer at had a lot of Katrina dogs. Some of them were in very bad shape and it was so sad to see that. Most of the Katrina dogs at this shelter have been adopted now thankfully.This is my 6th day of the intro diet and it has been the pits!! I ended up really constipated on Wednesday, that freaked me out. I had a phone appointment with Dr. Wright that afternoon and she recommended taking 5000 - 6000mg Vitamin C to help with the detox symptoms. I started that on Wednesday night and it has helped. She thought I should stick with the intro for a week and then go back to the regular. So only one more day!







Compared to the intro, the regular will seem like a cakewalk! I did get the yogurt maker and successfully made the yogurt (a feat since I am very inept in the kitchen). Had some of that this morning, it was very tart but okay. I'm hoping all the lacto in it will help.When I saw Dr. Wright in the clinic, she said to stop taking the GSE until the rest of the lab work is in. I had been on a high dose for a good 3 weeks and couldn't tell it was making a difference although that might not have been enough time. She said that day that she thinks the IBS stuff is an effect of whatever else is going on and didn't spend much time on it. She reviewed the CDSA results from 2003 and said she didn't see anything major from that. She didn't even suggest repeating that which really surprised me. So I just have to wait and see what the rest of the lab work shows and then go from there. I am going to start on the supplements for the neurotransmitters right away and I really hope that will make a difference quickly. If I could get past some of the fatigue, that would make so much difference.Enjoy the weekend, Stokes


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## overitnow

Hey Stokes,Out of curiosity, what supps are you taking for the neurotransmitters? (I always like to see what else can be added to the arsenol.)There was a short note on Reuters financial today, that Canada is warning ADHD drug takers with heart or blood pressure probs about serious heart side effects. (This is another good reason for flavonoids, since they seem to work on both.) It will be interesting to see what effects the supps have on your concentration as well as fatigue. Good luck with that.Mark


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## 15221

Hey STokes, sounds like your on the right path, the constipation thing to me would a little easier to straighten out....the dysbiosis for me is the main problem....never ending actually...but I look forward to hearing about your lab work and I am curious of my own which is in GSDL at the moment....last night I had an extra weird situation from my normal bizzaro food universe, I ate some dragon tongue beans tuna and some avacado.....I have not had tuna in years since I went through a little mercury chelation kick....but I figured since I am rotating my diet right now I would try it just one time on my fish day...well my tongue started burning like I was eating something very hot...as it became numb I was really freaked out....the beans were not hot to the touch or spicey but maybe there was something in them that other types of string beans have...so I then break out in rash on my abdomen and a headache occurs....weird stuff...so far only a few grumbles in the gut no bad real scene in the GI tract but I was bewildered and still am as to what was ewither in that tuna, or in thoses dragon tongue beans because I was having quite a reaction.....I am going to order some different foods next week, I am already eating buffalo, ostrich, and need to add a few more proteins before I fade away...veggies alone can't keep me going, though I really wish they could for my own ethical reasoning, but I am what I am so what can we do...different debate....anyhow still keeping my fingers crossed and rotating with the SCD.....hope all of you have a nice weekend.....


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## 14217

I ended up getting very sick Saturday night. I think it was the result of the SCD intro diet pushing my body too much. Today I felt mostly okay although am still very fatigued. Decided I will just stick with the regular SCD until I get the rest of the lab work.Mark-Here's a link:https://neurorelief.com/This is the company that sells the test and the supplements. Right now I am taking Travacor which is for the serotonin and Adrecor which is for the epinephrine. I've only been on them a few days so can't see any improvement yet. When I first saw Dr. Wright in 2003, my neurotransmitters were way out of balance, primarily the serotonin. I started supplements then and got a noticeable improvement in 3 weeks or so. I'm hoping that will happen this time too. If the Adrecor helped with fatigue, that would make so much difference in my daily life. Fatigue is at the top of my list these days.NG-Sorry to hear you had such a negative reaction to the tuna and beans. Hope all that has cleared and no other negative impact. A very frustrating thing for me is that I can eat something on Monday and it is fine, then eat the exact same thing 3 days later and it causes major problems. Never have been able to figure that out. It sounds like you are doing great with the rotation, is that making a difference? I imagine it is challenging at times to keep up with the rotation.Stokes


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## 15221

Hey Stokes, sorry to hear the SCD is got you a little confused, it did for me at first and still does but I feel like I am getting to understand intimately as I have no other choice...Yeah Stokes the Tuna was a serious road bump but never the less no GI effect, felt pretty darn good all week till this morning....I had a date, the kind that you eat...well the whatever it is it was probably the sweetest thing I have had in a long while but it had a negative impact on the GI....so I think I have found some boundaries to stick by for now....all the veggies I can eat, but sugary over ripened fruit like dates are too much for the gut to handle, I have had some bananas and even some peaches but my ability to digest all that sugar is still lacking and it ends up getting to locations in the GI tract where it does not normally belong....had a good week though and hope I can bounce back....SO stay with the SCD Stokes, and I think once your GI tract gets closer to squared away your neurotransmitters will start to level off...mine are better, but they fluctuate from good to bad letting me know that not everything is not back to a state of complete homeostasis, but God willing I can continue to feel like last week and not slip up I might be on to something that looks closer to normal than not....and were going to help you get there Stokes....I know how you feel with the one day a food is ok the next it does not...so many variables, thats why a food diary as much as it is a pain to do is good for keeping track and showing patterns in irritation that might be clues for intolerance......OK have a good weekend....


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## 15221

Hey there Stokes just a little addendum to last weeks post...This ongoing learning process is difficult to grasp when in such a mood of exhasperation and disgust in us being almost on our own in the treatment of these disorders....Last week I fely that I could at least experiment a little and yet today I am convinced after a couple of bad reactions over the last few days that just because the end product seems to be normal the mechanisms behind that normalcy are not always clear....I had just some reaction with some store bought torkey loaf that was very spiced and though I ate in a small portion it killed me later that day...so if you think you completely healed and it has been longer than five months than I would say yeah but I think I push the envelope to quickly...for me even the SCD has foods that I react to, but hopefully one day I will be able to eat most of the foods on it, but as of today most sweet fruits are off the list as are alcohol and hot spices....well thats my story whats yours...


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## 14217

NG-Are you doing SCD and rotation? If yes, I am impressed really. At this point, I don't think I could do both things. I am on regular SCD for now. I've been on it for 8 weeks and have not seen any improvement. How long have you been on it? One issue for me and SCD is being a vegetarian. I really do not want to eat animal food and that makes SCD more difficult for me. But that's my choice so I will just have to work around it. I plan to stick with SCD until I see the doctor again on June 19. Will reassess after that. It is hard for me to stick with it when I am not seeing any improvement.I check several SCD groups/list serves. It seems that many people are not able to eat all the SCD legal foods even after a long time on the diet. I guess it can take a really long time for the gut to completely heal.Woke up this morning with a cold/some sort of virus. My head is all stopped up, I think that has made my brain foggy! So hope all this makes some sense.Stokes


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## 15221

Hey Stokes, Well I hear ya on the rotation SCD being difficult, mainly I have customized it for now, I rotate my proteins as much as possible, probably every 4 or 5 days, my veggies are like every 3 or 4 days, trying to keep the fiber high in veggie matter, I would be dead if I was Vagan....I wish I could but I am as lean as I can be now so vagan would be downright suicide for me... All the progress I had two weeks ago still has not returned due to some experimentation with some fruits that just did not sit well at all....so I have been trying to get back to that point but it has been very reactive down there, even to the fruitless SCD, so I am hoping it calms down, even stress has been bringing on some symptoms so I know it is far from where it was 2 weeks ago so I need to heed my own advice and stay on the path that seems to work and not get greedy with the diet....SO we are on the same page with the long time healing info....Stokes I must say that after 8 weeks on the SCD you should be seeing improvement, unless something is causing an insult to your GI tract allergy reaction wise, I mean in my experience if I have intermitent improvements that is good as long as some improvement is made....I am sure your Dr. will hopefully come up with something for plan B C or Z like myself...Good luck with the appointment I am still waiting on my lab work from 3 weeks ago at GSDL thing is my flora could have already changed in that time but hopefully the markers will reveal some info.....I just keep feeding the gut as much homemade goat yogurt and Kefir as I can and take my Probiotics hoping it will keep out the bad guys from taking over again....2 cents worth please.....


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## 14217

Hey NG,Hope you are doing better. Did you get the GSDL results? If yes, hope those shed some light on what's going on.Several people on the SCD lists I check have had good success with goat yogurt and kefir. So I hope those have been making a difference for you. From what other people say, it can take a really long time.I saw the doctor on June 19. I have mercury poisoning and major mold allergies. Dr. Wright said, in all the time she has been doing the mold test, she has never seen anybody with allergies like mine, not what you want to hear from a doctor! I have some mercury in fillings plus problems with a root canal tooth. She thinks I should get that fixed first then she can work on the mold. In the meantime, she thinks I should do the anti-candida diet. It is even more restricted than SCD so I am gearing up for that. The anti-candida diet she gave me says you cannot eat any leftovers that are more than 24 hours old. That is going to kill me because I do not like to cook so I cook in large quantities on the weekend and then eat it all week. I reckon I will have to go to cooking and freezing. I have seen a biological dentist in a city about 1 1/2 hours from where I live (which is Charlotte, NC). His estimate for all the needed dental work is $7500. I have been researching on the internet and have located a biological dentist about 30 minutes from here so I am going to try that guy and then decided what to do. Hope to get going on the dental work in the next few weeks. Guess I will have to try to win the lottery in the meantime in order to pay for all this.So it seems that all my gut problems are coming from the mercury and the mold. In all these years of trying so many different things for the gut, nothing has ever made any lasting difference. So hopefully this new direction will yield positive results. It remains trial and error which is so frustrating at times.Stokes


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## 15221

Hey Stokes....well I can say I have been there on the dental stuff, I had a hair sample done and it was a good bit passed the allowable mercury limit...so I had them taken out, but not in the most precatious manner, though it cost me out of pocket I was not driving any further to have the 6 fillings removed...so I went on my own natural chelation program....lots of natural remedies, vitamins posted on the web to help...anyway that was not the answer totally either....today I am still confused...I have some great days and then bam back into it....I had some sort of weird feeling this weekend, don't know if it was a bug or what but head and ear aches and gut was in pain....today a little better....but I am still teetering....GSDL said at the time that I had a 4+ Lacto and 1+ bifdo...and no pathogenic but borderline pathogenic species of citrobacter C Ferundi bacter....I don't have the report on hand but it was something new, but that was directly after I came off of my last round of antibiotics....which hopefully when I started taking the probiotics again helped eliminate their pathogenic capability....One thing I must say that even though I feel much better I have now experienced the mind gut interaction quite clearly again....I have stressed myself on several instances and can feel the weakness still in the gut....the connection is there no doubt about it....only the healing will keep the anxiety levels low and keeping anxiety low will hopefully help heal the tract....your right about the long healing process...I just hope I can continue to eat the yogurt and kefir without developing an allergy....keeping my fingers crossed....started eating more cheese and nuts again....feel like I am walking a tight rope.....Stokes, my allergies were so bad that I would go for weeks just sneezing and watering eyes waiting for pollen seasons to end then in the Winter I would be so susceptible to colds it would be one long immune reaction....good luck and stay away from tuna fish...has way too much mercury in them....my last date with a tuna dinner had me breaking out in hives......


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## 15221

Wheres that dynamo of insight, the queen bee of IBS info....? Talissa, where you been lately...Feeling better I hope...yesterday had a weird little moment of IBS anxiety and it passed with some trapped air stuck in my GI tract....been having these little mini anxiety moments and it brings back not so good memories....so I am thinking why does this happen when I am eating all the correct foods and probably not in a state of pathogenic dysmbiosis...? Well any body else out there want to chime in....I started looking at the possibilities of taking a anti anxiety, anti Depressant, Anticholinergic, anti spasmodic, but none of them do what we really need them to do without causing more harm....so were stuck with the Hippocratic method, to do no harm first....so thy food be thy medicine but damn its a slow process with this condition....Talissa in your wildest of guess how long do you think it should take for a healing gut to down regulate receptor activity and or number of receptors located within the mucuosa that hopefully is being turned over quickly....well I guess the memory will be long...I have moments of feeling great and then environmental factors and stress can get me worked up so I am trying my own Cognitive Behavioral approach to calming thy mind, but it is tough because the body is awash in emotions, as most of us are.....I wish we could find a natural 5ht3 type of serotonin or adrenaline antagonist blocking agent...just dreaming... I know some people believe Mangosteen has some of these properties but nothing scientific has been published...maybe there is a bioflavinoid somwhere that does so if you have something you can tell me I will even help you market it....reluctant capitalist....anyway I see no other way out of this syndrome other than what the few like Overitnow have done and that is to go natural and help the body overcome the syndrome without damaging some other part of our physiology.....


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## overitnow

> quote:Originally posted by Noguts:anyway I see no other way out of this syndrome other than what the few like Overitnow have done and that is to go natural and help the body overcome the syndrome without damaging some other part of our physiology.....


It took me a year or more to become "overitnow." The one thing I took from that period was that it wasn't as bad as it had been; but I certainly couldn't look ahead to see a conclusion.As Mikenolomotil used to say: "Eat well. Be well." (Or something like that.) Look for the signs.(If you are looking for more serotonin, there is something I can suggest.)Mark


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## 17961

Hello, Overitnow, can I ask if you are still on those flavonoids or did you take them for a while and stop after things got better?I was on a course of Metagenics Ultra InflamX (which is full of bioflavonoids and some herbal anti-inflammatories) w/elimination diet for almost 4 months. The program is supposed to be limited time. Afterwards I felt great and could eat everything (except spicy) and function normally. Now all of a sudden the IBS-D & PAIN has come back, so I'm wondering if the flavonoids are something you just have to stay on. I've ordered another batch of the Ultra InflamX to patch me up, but what kind of flavonoids are you using because this stuff can get pricey.Also, after taking probiotics (Ultra Flora DF dairy free acidophilus/lactobacillus)for about 6 months, it started to give me really nasty migraines right after taking it - and I gave up on probiotics after trying just yogurt and getting a migraine w/a fever! Has anyone ever heard of such a thing as allergy/intolerance to probiotics?!?!?


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## overitnow

Sorry to hear about the reoccurance. How long were you symptom free after stopping the supplement?I use Provex CV, which I will stay on forever because of positive effects on my cholesterol. (There is some evidence that they may lower deposits which is exciting for me.) I have gone off them for a month or less a couple of times and the D and GERD do come back.Cost is not an issue. The monthly cost for cardio benefit is about $40, IBS control anywhere from $10-20. This is coffee money. According to a posting by eric, they also play a part in lessening migranes. I have not had much in the way of any kind of headache since being on these, either. (I also don't seem to get any negative reaction to probiotics, although I do not take them in the high dosages often talked about here nor do I see them as essential to my IBS.) While I don't have the pain that many of you experience, they have helped another from the Board completely eliminate hers.Mark


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## 14217

Hey NG,I haven't "heard" anything from Talissa in a while either. Hopefully, that means she is doing great!I hope you are doing better.I have started the anti-candidia diet, this is my 8th day. It is tough for me! So far I have not seen any improvements but I think it is too early. I am going to do for a while longer and then reassess. I never thought I'd be saying this but I miss SCD, it has a lot more variety.I am taking a supplement to boost serotonin and it is definitely helping. In April and May, I was very derpressed and that just made everything more difficult. It is much easier for me to deal with all this health stuff now that I don't feel so down.Did having the mercury removed make a difference for you? Is chelation necessary after the mercury is removed? I am seeing a biological dentist around on July 14. After that, will make some decisions about what to do.Just have to keep at it.Stokes


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## 15221

Hello all... 2 Skinny sounds like you had some weird reactions going on....could be an allergy to the probiotics, but if your eating all kinds of food I doubt that its a classic food intolerance situation....going way out on a limb but I noticed in my own situation that too many probiotics or certain types can give me little headaches, and GI problems, getting the right mix is essential...also is seems maybe you were feeling good and going back to the hard on the gut diet can bring the IBS back in a hurry....the gut has mamory cells that will in some cases provoke irritation and if continued spiral you back to a certain but hopefully you can get a handle on your bad foods and start the healing again....I have not had much luck with blunting reactions in the GI tract using flavinoids but if they work they can help you stabilize your gut, but I would have some sort of GI tract analysis done to assure you that dysymbiosis is ot being caused by an overgrowth of a certain bacteria.....Stokes I am afraid to say I am doing better, so I won't it brings me bad luck when I do....but I am rotating much slower eating four sometimes even five meals of the same protein then not eating it again for several 5 or 6 days....Bifidus was my low factor so I am making sure I am eating as much Bifidus food and I take Bifidus Probiotice one sometimes twice a day, I hope I don't hit the wall...so far its steady as she goes sailing into the great unknown and uncertain world of IBS....Talissa must be on Holiday ....I hope all is well with her.....Candida is pretty easy to kill STokes, just don't feed it and use the Probiotics and Grapeseed Extract and it should go away in a couple of weeks.....it only thrives in an absence of other beneficial bacteria.....I was tested for it after some natural treatments it was easy for me but the Klebsbellia and other Critters are hard to balance....good luck and keep us posted....


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## 15221

Anybody out there...? Hows the progress been..? I am still treading water, not making much progress but staying afloat...seems that the allergy to my favorite nut is still around, will test it once more but I do get some bad oderous gas when I eat them, so my hypothesis is that I am not digesting them due to a allergic reaction which releases some nasty gas due to fermentation by not so good bugs....I ate them with no problems for many years but I guess that was in itself the problemo....too much of a good thing...anyway still eating lots of veggies, and the tract likes it, so I guess I will continue to feed myself the paleo diet of greens and meats, rotating as much as possible....thinking I should maybe slow down on the dairy, but it has been really good eating it again....patience beyond comprehension is needed with this disease....sondition whatever you want to call it......later folks


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## 13931

Hi - I have been a lurker on and off for a long time. I am eating only meat and fish and fermented veggies in an attempt to get my digestive tract under control. I am also taking acidophilus(from GiProHealth), digestive enzymes (houston Neutraceuticals) and HCL with pepsin(Thorne).I have been gluten free and dairy free for a long time. I just eliminated fructose a couple of weeks ago because I was having sudden severe painless D, a new symptom, and the only thing left to eliminate was fructose, unless it's the beef but I don't want to go there. I have a freezer full of it. Things seem to be getting better, but the jury is not in yet. It's pretty frustrating. I have been dealing with IBS for 30+ years,sometimes better sometimes worse. It is pretty frustrating to spend a lifetime doing this but I think this might just be working, but I have said that before. Just wanted you to know that you are not alone.


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## 14217

Hey NG,Glad to hear you're staying afloat. I totally agree with what you said about patience beyond comprehension! You are so right about that.I am ending 3 weeks on the anti-candida diet which the doctor recommended due to the mold issue. So far, no improvements. It is very hard for me and I am still really struggling to stick with it. It's even harder since I haven't seen even any glimmers of benefits. But I will stick with it, hoping that in the next 1 - 2 weeks, I will either see some improvement or get a better mental attitude about it. Am still pursuing getting dental work done. I am seeing a biological dentist around where I live next week. Did you get any improvement from having mercury removed? For me, I think it is going to take some stuff like that to really get better, I just don't thin diet alone will do it for me.Stokes


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## 14217

Hey JFR,Good to hear your input and a little about what you're doing!How long have you been on the diet you described? It sounds a lot like what I am doing right now. I am really struggling with it. Any tips on what to do to make it better? It is especially hard for me to be around friends or in social situations. Also making it hard for me is that I really would prefer to be a vegetarian, even though I am blood type O and not supposed to do well as a vegetarian. Since you've had IBS for 30 years, I'm sure you've been through a lot!Stokes


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## 13931

Stokes - I have been following a paleo version of The Specific Carbohydrate Diet for about 2.5 years. It hasn't been hard for me because it has really helped with a host of digestive problems including daily morning cramping and D, bloating and Gerd. About 2 months ago I started having painless D following meals, food was just running through me. This made me more than a little desperate. I read about fructose intolerance and decided to cut out everything I was eating with fructose in it, which wasn't much, mostly just blueberries (the only fruit I ate) and coconut milk. It's been about a month now of eating only meats and fermented veggies and my last bout of D was a week ago,so I am hopeful. It has also really helped with bloating, nausea and gerd. It isn't difficult for me to stick to this because I am so tired of feeling sick. One book you might read to help with the meat eating is The Yoga of Eating by Charles Eisenstein. I don't buy the science behind the blood type diet. What I do believe is that high carb diets are not healthy for anyone. I also eat the way I do to control what felt like the beginnings of type 2 diabetes for me, wild blood sugar swings from high to low, caused by high carbohydrates. This way of eating has also done wonders for my mood. When I think about the food I used to eat it feels like poison to me. My motivation comes from not wanting my life ruled by my wayward digestive tract. I'm just tired of being sick.Jean


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## 15221

Hello JFR and Stokes... Stokes first off I would like to say I am with you on the social anxiety it is only natural for such a situation to cause anxiety, and it does become apart of the syndrome, but would mostly dissapearwith a normalization of our GI tracts, at least thats my opinion and I hope I am right...stress plays a significant role though I stressed myself physically very much over the weekend, and that caused me to have a negative stoll reaction, painless D as well, but very brief, however it got the gut into its protocol of twisting and turning due to all the reactions that take place etc...anyway Stokes I firmly believe you will improve after you get your body as heavy metal free as possible, however, it is our foods that will either heal us or keep us sick....JFR I eat fermented cabbage, but what else could I be eating that is similiar...? Also I think you will definitly improve after dropping the fructose for a while, whats your GI Microflora looking like...and have you ever had a Comprehensive Digestive Analysis....my last one was very revealing in that it showed I was on the bubble, I could fall into the dysmbiosis if I was not careful as I had some borderline microbe levels that were in need of attention, so no fructose for me for a while....though I did have some orange in a salad at a friends and not much of a problem in the stool....anyway my enzyme markers showed I was healing but still a long way off from being normal....JFR, I am doing maybe too much fermented dairy...how about yourself do eat yogurt, kefir, etc...? OK thanks for sharing your time it is only with more information that we can find a way....thanks...NG


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## 13931

Noguts - Funny you should ask about the Comprehensive Stool Analysis.I was just wondering whether or not it would be helpful. I have never had it done. The question I try to ask myself before I decide to have some test like that is will the results change my behavior in any way. I am fully convinced that one important aspect of controlling if not curing myself of this problem, is optimizing my gut flora, optimally through a combination of probiotic supplements and fermented food along with avoidance of those foods that feed the bad bugs. My take on the test now is that even though it might give me some interesting information, I don't think it will change my present behvavior, so I have decided to save the money, but I could be convinced otherwise.I have been eating sauerkraut, kimchi, fermented beets and fermented daikon. I get them at my local food coop, which is a particularly wonderful store. I just made my first homemade batch of kimchi, which is Korean fermented veggies (napa cabbage, carrots, radish, scallion, sea salt, ginger, jalapenos). It's really yummy and easy to make. There's a great book on making fermented foods Called Wild Fermentation by Sandor Katz. I am hoping to be making all my fermented vegetables soon.I used to eat a lot of 24 hr fermented yogurt ala the specific carbohydrate diet, but I was concerned that the dairy might be bothering me so I haven't had any in about 6 months. I also used to eat kefir daily, either made from milk or coconut milk, but I also gave that up a while back first because of my concern about dairy and now my concern about fructose (coconut milk). Once again when I have my smptoms stabilized I will try adding it back. I take an acidophilus supplement with no additives. I wonder about adding a more powerful probiotic supplement like from Custom Probiotics but I will probably wait on that too. I just don't want to mess with too much at once, especially since things seem to be getting better and I have some traveling to do in a week and I really need a stable digestive tract to get through it. Urgent painless d following every meal is just not going to cut it, along with continual nausea. So I will wait to make any changes for now.I am determined to solve this probem through diet and supplements and whatever else it takes. I did decide to try the ibs tapes because I think it might help my ability to live with digestive problems if I can lessen my anxiety about being out of the house in urgent need of a bathroom. I am also taking the supplement l-glutamine because it is suppoed to help heal the gut. Don't know about it but it doesn't seem to hurt so I'll keep it up for a while anyway.Good luck on this journey. I am glad to find people here who concentrate on finding dietary approaches to what is called ibs, which I consider primarily a garbage bag term which means pretty much we have no idea what's going on but we don't think its going to kill you.Jean


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## 15221

JFR, I am with you on the cost savings...I must say that it was only helpful while I was in a state of Dysymbiosis, in that I was in need to figure out if I had a pathogenic bug that would need some sort of antibiotic intervention....but if you are normalizing and feel better you might as well stay the course, for me it was more a peace of mind that the markers were not that far out of normal, and no parasites were taking over...I will check that info on making fermented veggies, I have looked in google about it before, but not much was available as to pickling, other than cabbage and cucumbers...it can be a little daunting trying to make something that sits around in brine for a while....no food posioning for me...anyway my organic store does not sell that kind of stuff....too bad I would like to try some of that stuff..I think your results will inprove on your anti-fructose diet.....perhaps in time you will even be able to tolerate it in small quantities....I tried eating dates a few months back and the sugar content was so high I was in pain for the whole next day....a few berries no problem....it takes time for the gut and the nervous system that modulates it to heal....time will tell for us all...... keep in touch and stay tuned.....good luck on your travels......NG


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## 13931

Came across a book called Bacteria for Breakfast by Kelly Karpa about probiotics. Then I found a recent interview with her at a radio station in Colorado that is well worth listening to: www.tributariesradio.org. I think I am going to buy the book.Jean


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## 15221

Thanks for the link JFR, I was re-reading your initial post and I was wondering if while you were on the SCD if you continued to eat the blueberries and Coconut Milk the whole time...? I am trying to figure out why all of a sudden if you were doing so well on the SCD you had a bout of the D....usually if you were tolerating the blueberries the whole time you should not develope a fructose intolerance unless you really upped the amount you were consuming and or you did contract something pathogenic that started really thriving on the fructose and thus creating toxins that your body no longer could tolerate....there are thresholds that the immune system can handle but something had to set you back initially if you were tolerating them fine previously....in my experience I could tolerate things until I crossed a threshold and then it was game over, one of the DRs. I consulted with said that if it was a mediated delayed allergic intollerance 6 weeks minimum needs to be given away from that food and reintroduction should be done very gradually when healed...problem is when do we know we are in a state of completed healing....well I am sure we do but like myself I like to push the envelope a little too much...anyway whats your best guess on the setback....? later


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## 13931

Noguts - I guess doing well is a relative term. For me it meant that I wasn't starting every day spending the first few hours in and out of the bathroom. I still had significant gas, bloating, nausea and reflux, just only occasional intestinal cramping and D. Then I stupidly (as it turns out) decided to go see a local naturopath, although I had pretty much given up on doctors, traditonal or alternative, as being of much help. She decided to treat me for probable parasites, which I was skeptical about, but decided to go along with it figuring it wouldn't hurt. However the herbal anti-parasitic she recommended seems to be what set me off. The painless urgent D started soon after taking my first dose and stopped within a day of my stopping it. Then I decided to test if this was really what did it so after a week I started again and the same thing happened only this time stopping it didn't stop the urgent D. That's when I went on my fructose free all meat and fermented veggies diet. I think it is working, all my symptoms are diminished, but the jury is still out, especially since I had some minor D last night. This really does get frustrating but I shall stay the course for now.I spent a lot of yesterday researching probiotics and what I discovered is that no one really knows very much. For starters they don't know what is in a "normal" digestive tract. The usual way for measuring microflora, by stool sample, may not relfect what is actually in the gut. It may be that we all have distinctive bacterial "fingerprints" so that normal is very variable. The studies done on individual strains of microflora are generally done by companies interested in marketing them so the results need to be read with that conflict of interest in mind. It is definitely not known what you should take, how much you should take, or when you should take it. I am waiting for my book to arrive, since Kelly Karpa seems a credible source.She has a PhD in pharmacology I believe, and teaches in a med school. Her very young son's potentially fatal c diff was cured with large doses of probiotics at Johns Hopkins after antibiotics failed to erradicate it including vancomycin (sp?).So the beat goes on. How are you doing? Do you see any medical professional regularly? I have once again pretty much given up on them and rely on my own research instead.Jean


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## 15221

Jean, Thanks for the info I am going to check out Kellys Story, I have read up on a lot of fermented food internet sites since you started your posting, it all is so very interesting....I might start making my own stuff this Winter when I have more time...in the mean time I have found some decent sources for real live or raw veggies at farms in NY state....I think the sourdough is another very interesting issue....enzymes working to digest the starches our bodies are finding difficult to tolerate....I have not read Elaine Gotshalls book breaking the vicious cycle have you...? I should order it as well...I am just being cheap....I guess anyway the probiotic issue is a little sketchy but their are some sources I have noticed a difference with....Custom probiotics seem good but expensive Natren seems good.....Talissa swears by Sedona Labs....I think getting them in the foods is the best way and once you get to stage of continual healing istead of continual damage I think you could get to a point where you will not need the probiotics.....I am not there yet, still on the fringe of healing versus sliding, atleast it is one step forward one back where before it seemed one forward two back....My physical body is getting stronger I hope that is an indication the gut is getting better, have had some really potent Gbombs lately...not sure if it the dairy or what but it is something I did not have two weeks ago so I am a bit concerned.....still have a bit of fatigue and can get into a bad sleep cycyle but for the most part I am sleeping better than I have in years....I am very dissapointed with the side effects of anti biotics I hope I never have to use them again.....I think they contributed to many of my problems as I was given course after course to save my throat....now I am one for careful monitoring of health but I think we should be looking at the body as whole and improving health not just treating disease with drugs that often can upset the delicate ecology of the human body.....in my opinion antibiotics should be used in the absence of any other treatments....big can of worms I know.....


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## 14217

Hey-I agree about the whole probiotics thing. It seems like a total #### shoot. Haven't yet had time to listen to link but will soon. I would love to hear what you think about the book.Jean, I was on SCD before starting this anti-candida diet (from the integrative physician I work with). Does paleo version mean you just vegetables and meat? I am still eating the SCD yogurt, like some every other day. It does seem to help. Sometimes I think I do better with getting probiotics from foods. Vinegar is not allowed on this candida diet so I think that means fermented vegetables are out for now.Have either one of you done any research on the whole ph balance thing? I have been doing some thinking about that for myself lately, wondering if that could be a contributing factor. If being too acidic is an issue for me, this candida diet certainly will not help as meat is very acidic. Sometimes it seems like "fixing" one thing causes something else to get out of balance.Jean, I ordered that book you mentioned. The reviews on Amazon sounded great. I think it will be very helpful. A really hard thing for me is that I am doing this eating plan but don't feel any better yet. That makes it harder for me to stick with it. But I think I just need to give it more time.NG- have you seen anything from Talissa lately? I learned so much from her posts! Hope she is doing well.Stokes


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## 15221

Hey Stokes, nothing from Talissa and that is good I hope maybe she just needed to get away from it all because it can take alot of energy to research this stuff....My PH was too high but however not that far out of alignment and all I was eating was meat, but I was lacking the acid from the gut to digest it but the HCL supplements are helping and so does the lactic acid we get from our probiotic friends....Stokes something should be giving by now...I would think some improvements would be showing....you are on a zero sugar zero starch diet and still nothing...? Improvement on the dairy front for me as well, I felt better eating it in moderation, I think bifidus is liking a certain amount as long as the lactose is low and I think the gas I am feeling could be due to Raffinose....an undigestible polysacchiride found in Asparagus, Broccoli, hope thats it....Its worth it cause I need the fiber and cellulose for the Bifidus to feed.....OK thats it for today.....


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## 13931

Breaking the Vicious Cycle by Elaine Gottschall was the first book I read about the relationship between bowel disease and food so it is where I started this quest for health. At the time I read it I was spending the first 2-3 hours of every day in and out of the bathroom. The rest of the day was not as bad, but not so good either. Then I read Neanderthin by Ray Audette and decided to add paleo principle of eating to SCD, which meant, at the time, mostly meat and veggies, with some nuts and blueberries and the 24 hr fermented yogurt, which isn't a paleo food, but I decided to eat it for the good bacteria. So I followed SCD but without the honey and fruits.Tradtionally, fermented veggies did not contain vinegar. They are fermented in brine, water and sea salt, so you could eat them on an anti-candida diet. If you are looking for store bought just check the label and make sure there is no vinegar in them and that they are not pastuerized cause that kills the good bugs. If you want to try making some homemade, "Wild Fermentation" by Katz is a great book. I too think that the rush to take medications is ptentially very harmful. It's a treat the symptoms but not the cause approach. I become more and more convinced that paying proper attention to what we eat can solve a lot of health problems. Even though I am still struggling some, I know that I am better than I was a few years ago because of how I eat. This may not be everyone's answer or even the total answer, but unlike a lot of meds, it can't hurt to pay careful attention to diet.I recently read that if you seem to be developing more and more intolerances to food, it is most likely leaky gut, which seems to be another way of saying that the walls of the intestine are damaged and allow food particles to get into the bloodstream between the cells, rather than be broken down and absorbed through the cells. Apparently some intracellular absorbtion is necessary for the immune system to work and produce necessary antigens. The problem is when too many things get through and our bodies start acting like much of what we eat is harmful. Once again I am not sure how true this is, but it makes some sense. More importantly it leads to the same kind of steps I am taking, trying to improve my gut through not eating what has become harmful and eating what might help restore it. I am trying some l-glutamine now, a supplement that is supposed to help heal the gut. I am not sure it is helping, but it isn't hurting so I will continue.Today I am feeling hopeful. This approach to ibs/digestive problems is a slow one, so I try to be patient and not expect sudden large improvement but rather a gradual but steady progress towards health. I too seem to have gone from one step forward and 2 steps back to 2 steps forward and one step back. I remember from calculus the theory of limits. This way I will never reach the limit or endpoint (perfect health) but I might get pretty damn close.Jean


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## 15221

Well Said Post Jean....Have a good weekend and keep on keeping on.....


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## 13931

Thanks Noguts. I've learned a lot about probiotics in the last few days, most of it leaving me more confused than not. I also want to know about natural anti-bacterials like GSE and whether they might be helpful. Leaky gut is something else I want to understand more. I have reached a point where I trust my own research more than I trust what any professional might suggest. I'm just trying to stay patient and hopeful as I educate myself. Hope you've had a good weekend. Jean


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## Talissa

Hey NG, How you doing? Just wanted to check in w/ you & say hello. You're right, I was on holiday. Had some good vacation time w/ family and then for a change, a "real" vacation not visiting family, but just having fun on our own. The best part was going out to eat, Target, & movies(although, was VERY disappointed with Pirates 2--it was over 2 hours of my life that I can -never- get back







) But I loved ev minute of everything else, even traffic--I miss civilization...Will start eating right again & maybe I can join all of you healthy eaters in this discussion again. I'm so impressed w/ your knowledge & self-discipline & refusal to cave into this beast. I esp like this area of the bb because peeps don't discuss covering up symptoms w/ band-aid drugs that cause other probs--so depressing in other areas sometimes....all you can do is shake your head...diff strokes, right?Cats, How are you? Still around? I'm going to start taking the Moducare. Will report back to you. Thx for the tip. I think my immune system is constantly in high high gear, which can be bad, so I hope this helps...I actually really want to get a cold! Be well guys & stay cool!L, T-


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## overitnow

Hey Tal, nice to see you back. I'm sitting at an old friend's house up in Whitehorse, waiting for my flight home after a fantastic river paddle with my kids--9 days on the Yukon River followed by a weekend of childish excess at the Dawson City Music Festival. Even drinking boiled river water for over a week, no GI problems. I should only be home for about a week before M and I leave on our annual gin fest. (Maybe I will need to join a Liver Support Group next...) I should get my journal notes on the trip transcribed and posted by then. Glad to hear you enjoyed your time off and that things stayed controlled. I look forward to hearing more from you once my silly season is over.Healthy lives...healthy bowels (with a little luck).Mark


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## 15221

Talissa, so nice to hear your vacation was a good one, yeah I think glimpses of normalcy can be addictive....Mark, I am definitly jealous of your scenery I bet the Yukon is some site this time of year, how were the flying bugs...







Glad your flavinoids are holding strong...I had a run of about 10 tens feeling great, got greedy with the cashews and paid a price....those memory B cells are like elephants....it takes a while....I just over dosed on them and had a case of D feel better today....up until then I was feeling really strong...I need to keep the food urges in check too Talissa, cheese and nuts are my down fall....still rotating and trying to take more flavinoids.....I have had some good results with Kefir and yogurt....knock on wood no reactions from them....moderation..moderation...Thanks to JFR I am searching high and low for cultured veggies, think that would work with me and some where in the future I want to experiment with some cultured grains....real sourdough type stuff.....Stokes how you doing...?


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## 14217

Hey Talissa!I'm also really glad you're back! I'm guessing you were vacationing in the US. Hope you were in someplace relatively cool, it's been blazing hot around here lately. 90% of what I buy comes from Target!! It is definitely my favorite store.Jean- I got that book you suggested- The Yoga of Eating. Have just flipped through it so far but it looks great. I am reading The Yeast Connection right now so will start Yoga of Eating next. I think it will help me a lot. I did not know that fermented veggies don't have vinegar so I will check into those. At one point, I was sure I had leaky gut and did a lot of research on it. I found two people that I thought had really good stuff on leaky gut- Leo Galland and Liz Lipski, you've probably found them too. I did the Great Smokies test for leaky gut and did not have it. Although I still think there is an element of that going on. From what I know, leaky gut seems to play a role in a lot of these GI type syndromes. Hope your traveling went well!Mark, it would be great to be where you are right about now. We have hit the dog days and it has been the pits.I'm still going with the anti candida diet. Having some days where I feel pretty good and then some not so good days. Going to the biological dentist for an exam tomorrow. After that, I can schedule to get the mercury fillings removed. We're going on vacation so it will probably be towards the end of August before I can get that done. I'm hoping that will start to make a diference although I have read that it can take 6 months to get mercury out of your body.I think I am at 2 steps forward and 1 3/4 steps back.







But that is improvement from where I was a few months ago.Stokes


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## 15221

Hey Stokes, glad to hear your improving....wanted to say one thing in regards to the Leaky Gut....I don't think the tests for that are all that conclusive....we could be leaking at such a level that is not quantifiable by the test....I think we are having allergic reactions to food and why because they are not being properly broken down, why because our digestive tracts have been compromised, why...? probably due to many factors....my hunch is because of antibiotics, lousy diets, and tons of unhelpful stress and occassional bouts of pathogenic or parasitic intrusion....as we have all read before that if the intestines are inflammed even at low levels the crypts between the cellular walls will leak certain proteins other molecules that are too large may not but the premise remains we are most likely getting an excess of undigested proteins circulating in the blood supply causing reactions and then we have all the undigested food causing mediated reactions and the pathogenic microbes creating even more inflammation its pretty all encompassing....However Stokes I think you are consuming something that is still causing your problems....candida will disapper when sugar is removed from the diet...something else is being fed in your tract or something is causing inflammation that needs to be removed from the diet....anyway just my own experience and two cents but I think your on the right tract....when you get the right combination the stool will let you know, the trick is keeping it at that level of healing so more progress can be made....


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## overitnow

For those who are interested:http://ibsgroup.org/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f...261/m/791106942


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## Talissa

That was really great to read Mark. Thx for sharing that. What an incredible experience, and some invaluble family time--all described w/ some very nice writing. It's also something I'd love to do(sans the risk of being bear bait--but nothing's perfect) Nice to live it vicariously thru you!







As a yoga instructor, I esp like the post script of John's airport yoga class(-love it-)....& opening up the hips is incredibly imp!!! Ie, anyone w/ lower back pain or knee problems would benefit.Thx again.Hey Stokes!! Hope you have a good vacation too...& its not too hot. It was fairly warm for our trip(CO, CA, & MI), but heck, I live in the tropics--I'm pretty acclimated to sweating...of course, that doesn't mean I like it in lg doses!


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## 14217

Hey NG,I totally agree about the leaky gut thing. And I think that's a big part of why I was allergic to everything when doing the energetic allergy elimination thing.Your comment about still eating something that is messing up my gut really got me to thinking. I have done all kinds of different elimination diets, Specific Carb Diet, etc. And never been able to completely eliminate my symptoms. That has always perplexed me. So I wanted to list out what I am eating. I would love comments/thoughts from anybody on what could be causing problems.This is an anti-candida diet from the doctor. She recommended it due to mold allergies, not due to candida.What I am actually eating nowGround beefVegetables except NO carrots, beets, mushroomsEggsBuckwheatBeans except NO peas, limasTree nuts except NO cashews I could have peanuts but stopped those last week to see if that might be the problem. No change from eliminating peanuts.Tree nut buttersOrganic butterOlive oilSCD 24 hour fermented yogurt. I only eat this every other day.Herbal teaGreen teaI have made bread using almond flour and eat 2 pieces of that every 3 days or so.No sugar of any sortNo dairy (except SCD yogurt)No grainsI agree that something is still setting me off but I just don't know how to figure out what it is.Thanks for any thoughts.Stokes


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## 15221

Stokes your diet is very limited like mine but there are a couple you can also try to do without....let the Green tea go for a while.....all nut products for say a week or so and the beans, they are hard to digest, I am sure your taking enzymes but....take it down to the basics, meat, vegtables, and moderate dairy....just see if that helps you after a week o so....Make sur eyou get plaenty of good probiotics and vegetable fiber and see what happens....I am still on the mend from the Cashews...some pain but somewhat close to what I was before my splurge of nuts.....its hard but it was working so I can only hope I can return to my previous level and go from there.....Have a nice weekend.......


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## 13931

I wish more was understood about leaky gut. I seem to be developing more and more food intolerances, which fits with the leaky gut theory of intestinal problems, but sure makes my life more difficult. I just had my 89 year old mother visiting for 6 days. We did some traveling to visit my daughter who is 2.5 hrs away from me, plus the airport is over an hour away just to pick up my mother plus we had tickets to a concert at a music festival. I am providing this detail of my life to illustrate why I could not be having urgent D on a regular basis. My mother and I have exchanged roles and I need to be in charge when she is visiting, not in constant search for the next bathroom. The only way I got through the visit was to restrict my eating to only meat and fish with some fat (butter or coconut oil)and homemade chicken broth. The first night of her visit I tried a bit of salad which was promptly followed by the usual urgent d. For the next 5 days it was only the meat and fish and broth. Last night I tried a little kimchi (my homemade version) and a small glass of wine. Urgent D again. So I guess it is meat and fish for the time being. I might try to add some cooked veggies ala SCD and see if I can digest that. I take cod liver oil, high vitamin butter oil (weston price) and probiotics. I was only taking acidophilus but after reading Bacteria for Breakfast, I decided to try VSL3 to see if it helps. It's quite pricy but I am willing to try most anything to get a semblance of a life back without having to think constantly about my digestive tract. The VSL3 is a 3 month experiment for me.My inability to eat any carbs began after taking a parasite treatment that a naturopath recommended. At least I think that is what triggered it, but of course I can't be sure. Does this sound plausible? The one thing I have not tried is a natural antibiotic like GSE. My hope, at the moment, is that if I can crowd out the bad bacteria with good stuff (assuming that's part of the problem), then I won't need GSE or some other natural antibiotic. I do eat coconut oil every day which is supposed to have some antibiotic properties. I am determined to figure this out on my own, since no professional, either traditional or alternative, has really helped me, just cost me money I don't have.The good news for me is that a bunch of strange symptoms that seemed to fall into the multiple chemical sensitivty category, seem to be going away with eating this way. Since leaky gut is implicated in both allergic and autoimmune problems, perhaps by eliminating the foods that I can't seem to digest, I am eliminating some of the allergic and/or autoimmune reactions that might have been casuing my symptoms. Sometimes I feel pretty alone out here, tackling my health issues without benefit of professional help, but as far as I can tell, professionals have not helped me so why bother, especially since they tend to look at you lke you must be nuts, since they can't figure out what's wrong. I am glad to have some companions on this dietary journey although I wish it didn't have to be.Jean


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## 15221

Hey Jean, well I feel your pain....







anyway I do not think it was the vegetables unless they were the very strong raw type like onions and your gut could not break them down properly....but Jean I bet it was the glass of wine, I found this to be an aggravating element for my GI mucosa...







no alcohol for me it damages normal guts....let alone very susceptible ones like mine...keep it elemental like you have been and lots of different probiotics with mostly Bifidus as it is what predominates in the Lower GI tract....hope it starts working for you soon....NG...I'm still in a holding pattern hoping to take off into better health....lots of factors like stress and the very hot weather do affect us even if it is subtile.....


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## Talissa

Jean,You sound like I was the first year w/ post infectious IBS. In my case, the uncontrollable D came after treatment of the parasite Giardia. I was able to somewhat control it with very strict diet, but what made the biggest difference for me was taking high dose fiber.No one was more surprised than me that this helped so much. It also creates butyrates & SCFA's in the colon which is extremely healthy for the colon...It lowers mild inflammation along the wall. Even helps those with IBD.Below is a good article on taking high dose fiber for IBS...altho I tried ev single diff fiber before finding only metamucil works for me.(she discourages metamucil--what she says didn't apply to me at all.) I jumped right in to high dose...slowly moving up to the high dose only caused more frequent, more uncomfortable, bulkier diarrhea.../supplements/sol_fiber1.aspAlso, after taking GSE for a month, the foods that usually set me off(anything with additives), no longer did.I stay away from alcohol, except ev blue moon, I'll have some white wine--there are never any tannins in the white wines, as opp to reds..I hope this helps. And you move on from the place you're in now.(It WILL happen!!!)Talissa


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## 13931

Noguts thanks. I am sure that the wine is no good for me but I was hoping. I do like a glass of wine in the evening. This was a local dry white wine made from pears, very yummy, but not for me I guess (can you hear me whimpering). But even without any wine, salad sent me running to the bathroom last week, so I am not sure what to think, other than I am not absorbing carbs very well, or maybe just not raw carbs. I will try the kimchi tonight (fermented raw carbs) without the wine, which was my intention last night but I succumbed to temptation. Then, on another night, I will try cooked veggies, probably cauliflower cooked very soft like Gottschall recommends. If none of this goes well I will stick with broiled meat, fish and chicken broth.Talissa - I find it hard to believe that fiber will help since I try to stick to an SCD type diet in which fiber is considered one of the worst offenders. I suspect that I will give my current regimen a few weeks and see what happens and if that doesn't help I will try the fiber. I have had ibs on and off, mostly d, for 35 years or there abouts, but this urgent painless d is brand new and occurred after I decided to follow this naturopath's advice. I had been controlling things pretty well on a low carb paleo type scd type diet for 2-3 years, so my expensive visit to the naturopath just made me worse. I should have just spent the money on new clothes. It can get pretty confusing reading all the contradictory advice, but I am convinced that what we put in our digestive tracts is very important and that continues to be my prime focus. The high vitamin butter oil has a high butyric acid content, which is why I am taking it. Maybe the fiber will help that out. I just need to remain patient and consistent and keep trying until something works. At least now I only have to take care of me and not my mother as well. It is heartening to hear that you are so much better than you were. It gives me hope.Jean


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## 15221

Jean, if I may ask what do you put in your salads besides lettuce...? Your plan sounds very good keep it up and hopefully you will see something turn around....


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## 13931

Noguts - The salad was mixed greens with yellow and orange peppers and cucumber, if I am remembering correctly. Last night I ate some kimchi with dinner but no wine and things stayed calm, so I guess the wine is really out. I am in the process of making some scd yogurt and will try that out tomorrow. Although I like meat, it would be nice to be able to eat some other things along with it so I keep seeing what I can add. My system does seem to be settling down some so maybe I am on the right track. Here's hoping. Jean


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## 15221

JFR Well the Salad seems OK though I did have problems with the raw peppers for a while, and only eat them raw sparingly....I think maybe the wine was messing you up...its so tempting to add more foods sooner than we are ready...I like the Romano cheese on my salads and veggies, but I have to alternate the Goat, Cows and Sheep....its kind hap hazzardly done but I am keeping my fingers crossed I can stay in the positive state of healing....such a tedious method of finding some sort of relief.....NG


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## Talissa

> quote:I find it hard to believe that fiber will help since I try to stick to an SCD type diet in which fiber is considered one of the worst offenders


Yep. That's -exactly- what I would have said when I was on the SCD...







Altho she isn't ag fiber per se. Almonds are fiber-rich. She's ag specific types of carbs.(lol, hence the name)If interested here's one study showing the specifics of how psyllium(like in metamucil) lowers inflammation: Intestinal anti-inflammatory activity of dietary fiber (Plantago ovata seeds) in HLA-B27 transgenic rats. I eat salad ev day now, at least when I can find good greens here. No gurgling, unless I forgot my fiber.But we all find our own way to tame the beast. I'm glad you're figuring out your way. Taking care of yourself plus your mom has to be very challenging at times.We're all pulling for you, T-


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## 15221

Hey Talissa, yeah I remember taking the metamucil many years ago when my very first DR told me to use it definitly helped and I went into the remission type period but as I got out of it things spiraled down...I am wishing I could take it again I just worry that the fiber starch of things like Metamucil, which is corn Husk refined... will end up feeding the bad guys....like I think some of the corn products were doing, I hope I can get back to eating some corn some day as I think it has much less gluten and has very good properties if not eaten in excess....I am feeling better but if I go a day without a BM my system gets a little goofy when I do go and I the mechanical response ends up giving me repercussions.....like one of those long clown ballons squeezed and stretched for a long time ....time to go need more veggies....


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## 14217

Hey,NG- thanks for taking time to give me your thoughts on what I'm eating. Haven't replied before now because my best friend from Florida has been here and we went up to the mountains for a few days. Now I am leaving on Saturday to go to the beach for a week as the family vacation. I figure it will be enough of a challenge to be on vacation for a week and stick to this diet. So I will wait until we get back before implementing your suggestions. Eliminating nuts will be very hard for me! I really don't like eating meat so I eat nuts to avoid the meat, hope that makes sense! I am still really struggling with this eating plan. I feel like I am trying to kick a major drug addiction. How long did it take before those kinds of feelings went away for you? I have been on the candida thing for 5 weeks and was on SCD for about 2 1/2 months before going to the candida plan.I am taking Betaine when I eat meat but no other enzymes. In the past, I have taken literally boatloads of enzymes and never felt they made any difference. Do you think it would be different now since I have altered my diet so much?Jean- I am totally with you on the glass of wine! That is the thing I miss the most. I am hoping that the day will come when I can have some wine occasionally. I also agree about the contradictory advice. I have concluded that it really is trial and error, like many others have said, using my body as the lab.Talissa- I'm so glad you're back. I have learned so much from your posts!Stokes


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## 13931

Talissa - I almost ran out and bought some fiber but I think I will hold off for a bit more since what I am doing now seems to be working pretty well and I have a tendency to be impulsive about things. Thanks for the info. I am trying to practice patience. I think we get so used to the quick cures promised by most traditional medical practitioners that we often don't give things time enough to work, or at least I don't, so I will hold off on the fiber for a few more weeks. Last night I ate 2 tbs of scd dripped yogurt, mixed with a little cinnamon, vanilla extract and a pinch of stevia. It was yummy and seems to have done no harm. I am still taking the very expensive VSL3. I feel like I am on the right tract here, repopulate the flora, heal the gut, drive out the bad guys. Just got to be patient.Noguts - It is tedious but I am convinced that the only way is the slow steady approach even if it means 2 steps forward and one step back and sometimes one step forward and 2 steps back.Stokes - enjoy your time away. I can't imagine doing this without eating meat. I gave up nuts a long time ago because they seemed to be bothering me. I also feel like my body is a science experiment, but I would rather be the experimenter than hand it over to big pharma. I still miss my evening glass of wine.Jean


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## Talissa

Jean & NG, Yeah, do what feels right -for you-. The one thing the SCD did for me was get me eating whole foods only. And it was kind of fun--trying all those new recipes. Lucky for me there's one store here that always has raw almonds & even ground almonds. I recently got a small cookbook by a guy who may've self-published. It's all coconut flour recipes(w/ alot of eggs in ea recipe). I'm waiting now on the coconut flour to come in. I thought I'd be able to use my grain grinder on flaked coconut to make flour...not so. It'll be interesting to see how things come out!As a side note, all the coconut trees here on Nevis are dying from a fungus commonly called "lethal yellowing disease". No cure for it. It's really sad. This island will look completely diff in 10 more years... I guess hawaii's coconut trees have a fungus too, a diff one called "dying heart" disease...Aren't coconuts supp'd to be anti-fungal??? Makes you wonder, eh? Hey Stokes







Have fun on your next adventure!!


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## 15221

Hey Folks....Stokes glad to hear your doing OK....I loved the nuts too...but I liked them too much and now I am nutsona non grata...I can't go near them for a while but I do cook with some Walnut and Sesame oil now and then....time to heal will be longer than the six weeks I tried the last time....I'm thinking 6 months before I give them a go again...the meats and veggies lots of veggies are my friends...lots of fiber vegetable fiber for Bifidus to consume.....when I ate too much meat with small amounts of fiber I went nowhere....got worse actually....That kind of baffels me with the coconuts....I wouldnt think the fungus would have a such a damaging effect either, but nature is strange in it's ways as we can all relate to. JFR why take the Stevia....plain yogurt starts tasting really good after a while or maybe just a pinch of honey and cinnamon....but as long as you not reating negatively....alls good...I know it is tough to miss out on the sweets and carbs but that will come as we heal....God willing.....Have a good weekend everybody...NG


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## 13931

Noguts - Why not stevia? I don't eat any honey, first because I follow Dr Bernstein's Diabetes Solution and second because it is high in fructose which I am presently avoiding. I have never consumed foods with artificial sweetners. Stevia is an herb. I get the unprocessed organic green variety (smells like grass) and I quite literally only use a tiny pinch. So why not? I am eating at most 5 grams of carbs a day, probably less since all I am having is a small amount of kimchi. Treating myself to a pinch of stevia a day in my scd yogurt doesn't seem like a deal breaker. I am really pretty good at this controlled eating thing. I have been doing it for almost 3 years. I used to be an overweight carb addict with ibs and type 2 diabetes. I am down 95 pounds, have normal blood glucose levels and now it's just the ibs intestinal digestive stuff that isn't resolved. The problem seems to be that I keep having to cut out more and more, which is why I think it is leaky gut. For me a pinch of stevia in my yogurt constitutes an indulgence and I figure I can allow myself one since it doesn't seem to bother my sensitive system. It's better than starting each day with cream and sugar in my coffee and and a honey glazed donut. Sorry if I sound a little touchy but geez, haven't I given up enough?Jean


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## Talissa

Hi Jean,I think what you've done is AMAZING! 95 lbs. You GO girl







You've got a lot of will power. And you do make sacrifices. I'm so proud for you....my guess is NG was thinking you meant splenda or something when he wrote that. Stevia doesn't affect your blood sugar at all, nor does it feed bacteria. You're doing great.In awe, Tal


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## 13931

Thanks Talissa. It really wasn't very hard. By changing to a low carb paleo diet, the carb cravings that had plagued me for a long time and which I believe fueled my weight gain virtually disappeared as did the symptoms of hypo and hyperglycemia. Not so much willpower as determintaion to feel better and giving my body what it really needs rather than what it craved. My IBS-D also got much better and not starting out every day with intestinal cramps is a great incentive for sticking with it.The problem has been that the ibs symptoms never completely went away and this year have got much worse, culminating in this urgent painless D that started this past June. I can't say I understand it but I think that my 2 long rounds of antibiotics about a year ago and then again this past winter for first a sinus infection and then bronchitis must have contributed. Then when I tried a parasite remedy recommened by a naturopath(have no idea whether I even needed it), my system just rebelled dramatically. My primary approach now is to reduce things that feed the bad guys to virtually nothing (very very low carb) and to repopulate with the most potent probiotic I could find, VSL3, plus a small quantity of fermented foods, homemade kimchi and now a bit of scd 24 hr yogurt. Things are by no means perfect in my digestive tract but they are much improved. I made it through a long dental appointment last week. This is an appointment I cancelled a while back because I couldn't imagine sitting in a dentist chair that long. I am also no longer almost continuously nauseous. I may even get my life back. Here's hoping.Talissa, I am wondering how you decided what probiotics to take. The closer I look at the issue of probiotic supplementation that more confused I get about what might work and what not. I think the VSL3 is helping but it is very costly and I don't want to take it forever if I can help it.Jean


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## Talissa

Jean,Don't downplay what you've done. While working on becoming a CN, I had to counsel clients for 4 months each. I got 4 peeps who were overweight & one long distance runner. The only one who could self-motivate was the runner. The others wanted to be thin, but didn't want to change their lifestyles...This was how I found out I'm lousy at motivating others.







Its why I'm a "non-practicing CN."Anyways, to answer your question, I've gone through diff phases of figuring out which probiotics to try. Others' experiences or else studies. I still don't know if I'm taking the best probiotics for myself...or taking enough. Its hit or miss.If you have time & are bored one day, you could read through the GSE thread back here. Its mostly about probiotics. Good studies, interesting discussions...but it may also confuse you even more.


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## 15221

Hey Jean, Sorry I was so hard on your Stevia, I am just hoping that you start to improve and I was a little worried about what the SCD Diet wrote about Stevia, but heck a little bit should not hurt you, I love the natural taste of all yogurts so I just don't see the need to sweeten them up much....I hope you were not offended, I wish only the best for everyone.....I had a little set back myself, over the weekend went to a small party and had something that caused a following day, on episode of major D....can't for the life of me figure it out....a couple of peices of fruit and what I thought may have done it was some spiced up roast beef....whatever it was GI Tract did not care for it one bit....feeling better now....so many things can mess with my system I just believe simple is best until whenever I can feel confident to venture out in the food departments...obviously I am not ready...I also think I need to cut back on the dairy it is causing me some sinus type allergy things sometimes when I eat it....so who knows maybe for a while I will go dairy free.....Jean hang in there I think you are on the right track, I with you on the weight thing, lost weight and I am still strong and much healthier blood lipid and sugar wise....I'm keeping my fingers crossed for all of us....


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## 13931

Noguts - I don't know why I got so defensive about my stevia. I know what Elaine said about it on the scd site but it seems to be ok for me. I am less sure about the yogurt but I do like it so I am hoping it can stay.Sorry about your set back. I know how that feels since I just had one last night after about 2 weeks d free. In my case I think it was the digestive enzymes I decided to try. I should know better than to mess around with success. I've got so I don't trust any food unless I make it myself and know what's in it. Did the roast beef have a sauce on it or just spices? I was amazed about a month ago when I went to buy some deli type meat and found that even at my very health conscious food coop that almost all the meat had sugar added.I think I have to just accept that my food needs to remain very restricted for a long period of time while I try to heal my gut with probiotics and l-glutamine, although I am not convinced that the l-glutamine is helping. At least it doesn't seem to be hurting.Sigh...Sigh...Sigh...The beat goes on.Jean


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## 15221

No Problem JFR, I understand...jeez I wonder why the enzymes are giving you fits...? Really I hope they do not revolt on my system some day as I think they are very helpful to many of my problems...The Roast Beef was in a Sauce and it was spicey and when I was eating it I said oh boy this much hotter than it should be for my system...and I was hungry so I went for it and paid the price...hard to believe peppers can do that...but if it can cause tears in your eyes, and burn your eyes in some cases its effects on the mucus membranes must be strong....I like L-glutamine too....not so sure how much it helps but I am am sure it does to some extent....I feel better using it.....hope you get back on track soon too...NG


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## 13931

Noguts - Wouldn't it be nice to just be able to dig into a meal for the sheer pleasure of it without having to consider the consequences? A girl can dream I guess. I tend to avoid anything with a sauce on it, too many unknowns. Hope you are doing better.The approach to all of this of erradicate the bad guys, repopulate the gut with good guys, heal the gut makes sense to me. I haven't yet tried any of the natural antibiotics like GSE nor have I tried a rotation diet or an antiinflammatory like quercetin. Part of me thinks that I should give my current regimen a good go before adding anything more and part of me, the part that is inpatient for change, wants to add something new to the mix, maybe a 5 day rotation first since I have to buy food anyway . Since about the only thing I am eating, except for kimchi and coconut oil, is meat it would go something like beef, chicken, fish, turkey, lamb. Who needs a hobby when you have a digestive tract?Jean


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## 15221

Hey JFR, Well I hear ya on the not adding any new elements....I had another episode on Saturday out of the blue but at least my diet gives me a few hints of what it could be....so I breakfast everything seemed sunny and well, and I ate my normally safe SCD diet, eggs veggies, and bacon but later that day I paid the price....so I figure it could only be a couple of things...bad egg, not likely...had food poisioning before that wasn't it, maybe a bad allergy evolve to them out of the blue...? Or was it just some new face of D the type I had only seen when eating like did the weekend before...Well I am not sure exactly what caused it but I did take some Quercetin with my Vitamin C, and I have had a sneeking suspicion that whatever Now Supplement makes its Quercetin from is giving me a bit of a hard time....so I look on the label it does not say what it is made from...but it did say something about green tean, and onions so whatever it is made from is not very refined, and I hope that was what caused me the problems because other than that it was the only thing I tried that was different....so I will keep my fingers crossed that was it and not some weird phase of IBS....similiar I suppose to what you were experiencing right...? It really is a day by day thing, just when you think it is close to being kicked it turns around and kicks us back....take care... NG


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## 13931

Noguts- It really is amazing how easily things can go awry. I had one strange d episode a few days ago. Since my new d pattern (starting in June) seems to be that some foods simply run right through me in a matter of a couple of hours, it is easy to trace it to a meal. This time I believe it was the raw garlic clove I had added to my daily diet as a natural antimicrobial. So no more raw garlic, reputed to be so good for whatever ails you, but apparently not good for me, so it is back to meat and kimchi, meat and kimchi, more meat and kimchi, a little chicken broth, a little coconut oil, a little butter, maybe a bit of fish. At least I don't have to think much about preparing meals. It is very hard for me to stay patient and not change my regimen but that is what I am trying to do, add nothing new for at least another month or better yet 2 months, not even a single raw garlic clove. My mind as well as my body needs changing. Quercetin was on my list of things to try but I am going to hold off. I buy supplements that have absolutely no additives, mostly pure encapsulations brand. They cost more, of course, but I just don't like taking any chances.Jean


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## 15221

JFR...







I tried the raw cloves a year or so ago thinking the same thing...no way...it was hard enough getting by the mouth I knew it would be trouble....trial and error...I cook all that stuff and even onions are too tough if I eat too many raw or cooked...We are on the same page with the time...if I could get one or two months of good healing no D....I think it would be such a huge mental and physical stepping stone....I am trying not to deviate either its just not worth it.....one daY at a time is a tough way to live, but what else can we do...? Keep on Keeping on....keep us posted on your progress....! Thanks NG


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## 13931

Noguts - Two months without d would be really wonderful. Let's hope we both accomplish it. Right now I can only eat meat, chicken broth , coconut oil and butter. Even my beloved kiimchi caused a major d attack on Thursday so fermented veggies are out for now. I might try some thoroughly cooked veggies as the scd diet recommends. I can't help but wonder if I am doing the right thing but I feel better using my body as a guide to what I can and cannot eat than I do following the advice of either an allopathic or alternative doctor. I am also continuing to take the VSL3 and l-glutamine. Patience, I need to practice patience.


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## 15221

Hey JFR, I hope your feeling a little better...? I am tired, but knock on wood still feeling OK, actually made luck number 13 today hoping to stay D less....longest I have gone in about two years....so lets keep up the healing....I am not rotating as much but still to some extent....just need to keep lots of fiber and probiotics....JFR what are the veggies you are eating fermented with...? If there is Vinegar or other alcohol based fluids it could be part of the problem, but other than that I can only say that you are becoming intolerent to the veggies you are eating...which I have said before seems rare...but yeah stayed with just the cooked stuff and are your VSL high in bifidus...? Hope so as that has been my main focus....I really enjoy eating my goat and sheep cheese and hope I can continue with it....however I do think it still gives me a little sinus reaction....OK I hope all your hard work returns with positive results soon....so frustrating.....NG


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## cat crazy

JFR - How do you take your l-glutamine? What is the best way to take it, with food or on an empty tummy?


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## 13931

Noguts - I hope your d free days continue. I am on day 12 d free, still sticking to zero carbs. Even my fermented veggies will have to wait until I am ready to experiment. Right now I am just liking not being tied to a bathroom. I was fermenting veggies naturally, no vinegar, no alcohol, just salt. VSL3 is a combination of bifido and lactobaccilus organisms, 450 billion per packet. I mix one packet in water each day. My system seems to be normalizing. Time will tell.hanna - I use l-glutamine powder. I mix a teaspoon in water and drink it on an empty stomach. From what I have read it is better absorbed when eaten on an empty stomach so that's what I do just in case that's true. I also read that you should drink it quickly after you mix it because it degrades easily.Jean


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## 15221

JFR, Glad to hear it....! Well twelve days is good, and I think I am almost two and half weeks but I did have a little C followed by some grumpy guts...I think I over dosed on the Parmesean Cheese and it worked on me in a different way...I now understand what people with The Dreaded C version of this condition go through....and it was not from lack of fiber either ...so I need to chill on the cheese...I do like it as it is very tasty and good for snacking when I have nothing else to eat....but fingers are crossed the progress continues...I am stumped on the pickled veggies for some reason something in them was causing a reaction and if that is not proof enough that this condition is tied to immune reactions to foods due to a compromised GI Tract I do not know what is....I live it everyday...belive it or not a guy named Dr. Dahlman tried to tell people on this BB that it was based on food intolerances and emotional stress and he was laughed off of this board, I worked with him a few years ago but it took me longer to figure it out and tweak the system...I just hope it continues I am so skeptical due to the countless times I have fallen back into the cycle of IBS that I can only live one day at a time....I guess if I can expect to be dissapointed I will be less likely to feel so distraught when it happens....OK best wishes and keep us posted....


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## 13931

Noguts - I was lurking when Dr Dahlman was around. He was treated with such derision. I downloaded his article on IBS and tried his program. It really fit in with what I believed anyway. For me too it has taken some more tweaking, but I still believe his basic dietary advice is the way to go. I am not sure that all his supplements are necessary but I suspect that many people would see vast improvements if they stuck with his advice. My system isn't working perfectly but I am still d free and also mostly nausea free. A few other weird symptoms have disappeared or diminshed too. I go out of the house without worrying about the nearest bathroom or whether I will embarrass myself. I hope it continues for both of us. One thing I have learned is that it takes patience, to not give up too quickly. So it's meat and coconut oil, coconut oil and meat, with a few supplements and probiotics. Boring but I would rather be bored with my diet than suffering with symptoms.


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## 15221

Hey JFR, Glad to hear your doing better as well...I am still in the positive I guess...no D and feel pretty good as a whole, but I have flares, days where I get an anxious gut, any reason like stress, chemical exposure for too long, or not getting enough rest....usually I am tollerating the cheese products well, they don't seem to be causing me to many issues, but if my fiber levels go down the gut lets me know about it, it does not like it when only the meat consuming bacteria are fed....balance is the key.......


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## 15221

Hey JFR, back to seek some consensus on fats...yesterday I had an evening D...episode broke my streak did not make the month like I was hoping for so I was a bit baffled....anyway I was a little tird and stressed but I thought that was probably a minor contributor, but when I had breakfast on Tuesday I ate alot of bacon and eggs and I am wondering how fatty foods efect your situation...I never really had a discernable reaction to it in the past but when I ate the ground meat the night before and in the morning I wonder if that caused what they call an abnormally large contraction of the colon, something revealed in scientific studies that showed roughly 50% of individuals react to fats with large propagating motility contractions within 1 hour of intake from saturated fats...anyway it is my only explanation as to what set me off....back to day one again but it was a good run.....could not find much of an explanation as to why fats set off these waves of motility but apparently it is caused by neurotransmitter release acetylcholine, insulin receptors...etc...but what purpose does it serve...?


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## Kathleen M.

Part of what goes on is the GI tract coordinates it's actions. The colon is not completely independant, nor the small intestine, nor the pancrease and liver that release what you need to digest the stuff or the stomach.There is cross talk so they can respond properly when something happens elsewhere.Your stomach lets the colon know every time you ate so things get moved along and space is made for the next batch. Any meal will trigger this, the I ate a lot of fat so I need lots of bile and stuff to digest the fat seems to make (and I don't know why) the I ate signal stronger (for lack of a better term) and the colon responds more intensely than when you have a low fat meal.It gets more active after every meal, and also is at its most active around the time you get up. Sort of a clean things out to start the day response.K.


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## Talissa

This is fairly dated, but is interesting. Makes me want to give going wheat/gluten free a go again...he American Journal of GastroenterologyVolume 100 Page 1550 - July 2005doi:10.1111/j.1572-0241.2005.41348.xVolume 100 Issue 7 Food-Specific Serum IgG4 and IgE Titers to Common Food Antigens in Irritable Bowel SyndromeSameer Zar, M.R.C.P.1, Martin J. Benson, M.D., F.R.C.P.1, and Devinder Kumar, Ph.D., F.R.C.S.1INTRODUCTION: Food hypersensitivity is a common perception among irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) patients. Data from dietary elimination and food challenge studies support an etiopathological role of diet in IBS, but there are no well-established tests to identify food hypersensitivity.AIM: To compare IgG4 and IgE titers to common food antigens in IBS and controls.METHOD: One hundred and eight IBS [52 diarrhea-predominant (D-IBS); 32 constipation-predominant (C-IBS); 24 alternating (Alt-IBS)], and 43 controls were included in the study. IgG4 and IgE titers and skin prick testing (SPT) to 16 common foods including milk, eggs, cheese, wheat, rice, potatoes, chicken, beef, pork, lamb, fish, shrimps, soya bean, yeast, tomatoes, and peanuts were measured.RESULTS: IBS had significantly higher IgG4 titers (Î¼g/L) to wheat (395 IQR Â± 1,011 vs 0 IQR Â± 285, p< 0.001), beef (1,079 IQR Â± 930 vs 617 IQR Â± 435, p< 0.001), pork (481 IQR Â± 379 vs 258 IQR Â± 496, p< 0.001), and lamb (241 IQR Â± 460 vs 167 IQR Â± 232, p= 0.009) compared to controls. These differences were maintained across all three subgroups. The antibody titers to potatoes, rice, fish, chicken, yeast, tomato, and shrimps were not significantly different. No significant difference in IgE titers was observed between IBS and controls. SPT was positive for only a single antigen in 5 of 56 patients tested with the same panel of foods. No correlation was seen between the pattern of elevated IgG4 antibody titers and patients' symptoms.CONCLUSION: Serum IgG4 antibodies to common foods like wheat, beef, pork, and lamb are elevated in IBS patients. In keeping with the observation in other atopic conditions, this finding suggests the possibility of a similar pathophysiological role for IgG4 antibodies in IBS. http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/1...41.2005.41348.x I liked that they used controls in the study. Was very surprised by this~~"No correlation was seen between the pattern of elevated IgG4 antibody titers and patients' symptoms."They didn't say the same thing abt the IgE titers, so I guess there's the diff there.Tal


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## 15221

Thanks for the info Kath and Tal...yeah the article from Blackwell would be good too bad its not free but I get the drift....IGE4 stuff is still going on and probably still setting me off, perhaps it was not just the fat but a combination of several things....more guess work but it keeps my rotation diet in more enlightened perspective....thanks again...


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## 13931

Noguts - Sorry your good streak ended. I'm still doing ok. My digestive tract could not be called normal, but it has been several weeks without d, so that is good, with much less nausea which is good also. I am eating under 10 grams of carbs a day, still mostly an all meat diet. I just don't want to rock the boat by adding stuff back.My diet is all protein and fats, more fats than protein percentage wise, so no, fats don't seem to bother me. It seems to be carbs for me. Wish I understood it all. Keep on truckin'.Jean


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## 15221

Hey JFR, Yeah I am still wondering what set me off, I am slowly recovering not as good as before but still kind of good, I can only think it was a combination of things and not just the fat....The meat I was eating was regular ground beef, but perhaps I am a little less tolerant of that, plus combining stress and everyhting else....so I am still eating largely one protein a day and veggies and some dairy....hopefully I can get back on another streak of continued healthy BM's....Glad your doing well JFR.....slow and steady progress is great....


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## overitnow

NG--If it's ground beef make sure it is well done. E-coli abounds.Cheers,Mark


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## 15221

Hey everyone....JFR how are you still doing..? Got a steak going yet...? I hope so...I had the setback two weeks ago then I got caught up in some late night work stress and opened a big old jar of Kraut that was raw not cooked, just fermented and wow did it set me back...no D but a strange very old set of IBS symptoms I had felt for years came back....lots of pain and gut anxiety so I was freaked out a little....this syndrome can do some really weird stuff so I just chilled and finally took some Immodium, first time in years as well...calmed me down and I am hopefully back at a somewhat normal situation now....if you throw anything like good sleep, good food, or an illness its amazing how fast the symptoms can come running back....well at least for me....hopefully it is still the one step forward only half a step backward thing....


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## 13931

Hi Noguts - I am doing pretty well, still some weird symptoms but no d. Of course I am sticking to my nearly zero carb diet. I just like having no d and little nausea so much that I have gotten scared to add anything back. I would like a little more variety in what I eat but you do what you gotta do. Maybe someday. Stay away from that kraut. I love the stuff and kimchi as well but it is still off my diet for the time. W0uldn't it be nice to have a reliable body? Mine is just reliably messed up.Jean


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## 15221

Hey JFR, Sounds good to me and I am following my own advice as well, temporarily giving up the dairy to see if that improves my weird cramping that happens sometimes in the early am after going to the loo etc...maybe the dairy is still holding me back....anyway if this does not work I am going to see my GI dr for the first time in 3 years to see if I can get an antispasmodic or ideally a very low dose tricyclic anti-depressant that may help calm the patterns of nerve disregulation or hyprereaction... Many people have some benefits from these compounds and I think they are way safer than SSRI's any way DR might not agree, just wishful thinking maybe....well if the gut reacts well to the dairy free regimine before than I still will see him to get some updates on his perspective etc...generally I feel better just weird and painful cramps that seem to be getting worse.....maybe its just too much cheese...







JFR...I read alot of other posts here and I wonder why more people on this BB do not follow you and my own lead by going the carbless route...at least to receive some temporary relief....If my gut would just not go into hyper motility I would be a relatively happy camper....compared to how bad it was a couple of years ago....oh well hey hope your success continues.....NG


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## 21881

> quote:Originally posted by Talissa:Hey optimist, I like the new name--will have to change to that... Well ok, maybe not, I'm still a novice. Makes me understand the saying, "The more I learn, I realize the less I know."
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> I'll -try- to keep this succinct. And it could be all wrong.
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> Let me know if you want any studies to back this up...Anti-inflammatory probiotics vary greatly among strains, and then to confound matters, among subtypes of strains.From my research & knowledge to date, these probiotics are...Always Proinflammatory to varying degrees~L. AcidophilusL. Gasseri(sp?..in yogurt)probiotic E ColiLactococcus lactis Always Anti-inflammatory to varying degrees~L. Rhamnosus GG(culturelle)L. ParacaseiL. CaseiS. Boularddii Lyo(florastor)B. Infantis strain 35624(Bifantis/Align)B. LongumB. BifidumB. PseudocatenulatumCan go Either Way depending on subtype of strain~L. Reuteri(I use Nature's way with AMAZING results for my bloating. I have to take 6 caps before bed , w/ less it doesn't work. I have to guess that this part subtype of L. Reuteri is antiinflammatory)L. SalivariusB. InfantisB. Lactis B. Breve S. Thermophilus Has no/low immune activation of cytokine production~L. PlantarumB. AdolescentisCustoms just called to let me know my order came in. so along w/ florastor & Primadophilus Reuteri, I'll be taking a bifidobacterium mix soon.


Talissa,So that I am clear on what you have stated... I have Lymphocytec (sp?) colitis and have just started taking Asacol, an anti-inflammatory. I should be avoiding probiotics such as L. Acidophilus sine it's a pro-inflammatory? I was taking Pearls and Acidophilis pills for about a month when my D problem first started. I am now into my 3rd week using Align, which is an anti-imflammatory. Have you considered creating a spreadsheet of all the available products and matching to bug type? Including such info as which are pro- and anti-inflammatories would be great.


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## Talissa

Hi phoenixitc,Sorry you've been hit w/ LC. (I'm fairly ctn if I had a comprehensive intestinal biopsy, it'd show the same in my case.) Constant D, fun stuff...Just so you know, the biggest help for me has been high dose metamucil. I sometimes visit an IBD board, and its helped many there as well...So anyways, re: your question, no I really don't think it'd be a good idea to do up a spreadsheet. The reason is because of all those darn subtypes with diff numbers, which often aren't provided by commercial mfrs. It can be misleading. Also because this is a relatively new field of research, the number of good, unbiased studies aren't high enough to say anything w/ certainty.But you're not off base at all. Check this out from "Nature Clinical Practice Gastroenterology & Hepatology (2005)"~~"In addition, the different properties of each species of lactobacilli need to be considered, as it has been shown that different species have different potential immunomodulatory capacities that can either be proinflammatory or anti-inflammatory.3, 4 Combining potentially anti-inflammatory and proinflammatory bacteria in the same preparation would be particularly counterproductive and presents the alarming situation where an ill-chosen probiotic species might exacerbate disease."http://www.nature.com/ncpgasthep/journal/v...asthep0219.htmlRe: Acidophilus, if it helps you--take it. Give it a month to see if there's a difference. But most subtypes(all but one obscure subtype from what I've found)are pro-inflammatory in the current research. BUT, in your body, with your unique mix of flora, it may help....this is why the lab tests on mice or even humans aren't absolute--everyone's different....Although, just fyi to keep in mind, I've read that L acidophilus is the easiest & least expensive form of probiotic available to mfrs today...The L Reuteri I take in Primadophilus Reuteri helps me quite a bit--in stool form, bloating, & frequency. I first heard about it on the IBD bb. My supply ran out a few months ago, and two weeks into it, I saw a pretty significant difference. The same happens when I don't take natural antibacterials.So I guess for me, I need the combo of fiber, probiotics & antibacterials. Can't do w/o any of them. In my everlasting quest to get off the fiber, I recently started a new diet without the inflammatory foods--red meat, eggs, & milk. We'll see. I should also stop wheat completely, but I'm too social these days w/ bad memories of bad social situations when I tried the SCD...Are you trying any special diet?I'm glad you're taking Align--the research does look good. I wish they shipped int'l. Let us know how it works for you? In case you haven't seen this, it's a terrific paper(& incl's good results from L Reuteri)~~"Probiotics and prebiotics in chronic inflammatory bowel diseases"World J Gastroenterol 2006 October Here's another interesting paper on Reuteri~~http://www.the-aps.org/press/conference/ibd/2.htmSorry I went on so long!, CUL,T-


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## Nanobug

> quote:Lymphocytec (sp?) colitis


Have you given bismuth subsalicylate (aka, Pepto-Bismol) a try? There is some (limited) research indicating that bismuth subsalicylate may help with microscopic colitis.http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec09/ch126/ch126d.html


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