# The Value of Colon Hydrotherapy with IBS



## the doc (Feb 8, 2005)

First off, people here are looking for things that can help both D and C and previously I raised the issue of D being the ultimate form of C.Well, believe what you like, colonics have worked for me (along with the electro-lymphatic cleanse i chose to add to my treatment but probably not critical in the process of improving my condition). And I did it all without immodium or any of the even heavier prescription drugs that I view as only masking symptoms and eventually adding to the problem. In fact my kitchen full of herbs and natural remedies are sitting unused now too. What a relief to again have perfect bowel movements. Again, it's worked for me, no matter what sceptics or naysayers who come out of the woodwork here might say to the contrary, regarding this form of treatment.And read what BOARD CERTIFIED GASTROENTEROLOGIST ROBERT CHARM MD of Walnut Creek, CA who is also a CLINICAL PROFESSOR OF MEDICINE at the University of CA has to say about Colon Hydrotherapy:"I prescribe colon hydrotherapy. Frequently while performing colonscopy, I see that the patient is cleaned out from above but not below the diverticular still contain fecaliths, those small turds remaining in pockets formed on the gut mucosa. They indicate the presence of an unhealthy colon, and *over 50 percent of Americans possess diverticulosis colae.* When inflamed, gastroenterologists called them diverticulitis colae, which can be serious by creating fistulas. Some people will then poop through their bladders. Some women actually poop through their vagina.With patients for whom I perform colonscopy, about one third of them over the age of fifty who are otherwise cleaned above, still show residual stools sitting in these gut mucosa pockets. Some have held onto the stool pockets for decades. A toxic dumpsite like this is dangerous for them by the elevated concentration of poisons stored in the dumpsite. Environmental cancer can develop!A good cleanout by use of colon hydrotherapy is excellent treatment. Surely I recommend that people undertake colon hydrotherapy for themselves. Clean out the body's pipes. And by all means, I prefer my patients to undergo colon hydrotherapy the morning of colonoscopy. It's a safe way to cleanse the gut. *It's a healing technique for the relief of Irritable Bowel Syndrome * with gas and bloating, chronic constipation, abdominal discomfort and many other GI tract problems."I couldn't have said it better!


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:nd previously I raised the issue of D being the ultimate form of C.


It was a just straw man and there never was any issue here.









> quote:And read what BOARD CERTIFIED GASTROENTEROLOGIST ROBERT CHARM MD of Walnut Creek, CA who is also a CLINICAL PROFESSOR OF MEDICINE at the University of CA has to say about Colon Hydrotherapy:


As far as I can tell, he listed as "volunteer faculty" at the University of California at Davis, and he does seem to be actively practicing anywhere in the state of California.


> quote:"I prescribe colon hydrotherapy. Frequently while performing colonscopy, I see that the patient is cleaned out from above but not below the diverticular still contain fecaliths, those small turds remaining in pockets formed on the gut mucosa. They indicate the presence of an unhealthy colon, and over 50 percent of Americans possess diverticulosis colae. When inflamed, gastroenterologists called them diverticulitis colae, which can be serious by creating fistulas. Some people will then poop through their bladders. Some women actually poop through their vagina.With patients for whom I perform colonscopy, about one third of them over the age of fifty who are otherwise cleaned above, still show residual stools sitting in these gut mucosa pockets. Some have held onto the stool pockets for decades. A toxic dumpsite like this is dangerous for them by the elevated concentration of poisons stored in the dumpsite. Environmental cancer can develop!


What you just read was made up out of whole cloth.


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## the doc (Feb 8, 2005)

the guardian of your sickness, and policeman for the established status quo, spews once again. embrace his scepticism and continue on your path of suffering and follow him and the _only for profit_ pharmacuetical companies at your own longterm peril, *OR* take responsibility for the cause of your condtion and stop searching for that one magic pill (complete with longterm dangerous if not deadly side effects) that will make you better.Dr. Paul Flashner, MD of Wellesley MA, another CAM advocate (complementary and alternative medicine) has incorporated hydrotherapy as a regular CAM techique.One of his reports:"Tommy's constipation was really bad. He never had a bowel movement for a week at a time. Recognizing the dangers of physiological toxicity, his parents took their son for consultation with numerous gastroenterologists. The child had been subjected to colonoscopy a dozen times, but nothing could be found as the source of his blockage. Laxatives hardly helped at all. These was no diagnosis except that he suffered severely from constipation.Then the parents found their way to me so that the boy might undergo examination and treatment one more time.I improved the child's diet and removed all junk foods. Then I instigated an exercise program, had him drink lots of water, balanced his colonic flora and added fiber food supplements. *But most vital for Tommy's welfare is that he took colon hydrotherapy under my prescription.* The beneficial effect was dramatic, for within six months he was experiencing a natural and normal bowel movement every day. No laxatives were involved in his progress. Now the child does not need to consult me anymore; still he continues his colonic cleansing by having colon hydrotherapy. He did this once a month for six months, and currently he undergoes the cleansing just four times a year. It's been two years that Tommy remains in excellent physical condition.*Colon hydrotherapy is the perfect specific procedure to eliminate constipation and restore normal bowel function.*"All his words and I'm NOT making this stuff up!


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:All his words and I'm NOT making this stuff up!


But he is.


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## the doc (Feb 8, 2005)

Believe his opinionated, subjective, small-minded statements or check directly with the board certified MDs I'm quoting here. The choice is yours.Shandra Sharma, MD of Millburn, NJ has been a primary care physican for nearly twenty-six years and dispenses medical care of a multi-disciplinary nature to her patients. Dr Sharma employs colon hydrotherapy, acupuncture, Reiki manimpulative therapy and much more. She treats the body as a whole (holistically)."I have trained and certified colon hydortherapists working as part of my staff. Under my supervision, they render care for constipation, abdominal cramps, allergies and a variety of other conditions. For instance, Mrs. Felicia, a forty-two-year-old high school teacher, had suffered with constipation - no bowel movements for six days at a stretch. She was bloated, fatigued, lethargic, headachy and crampy. My treatment of choice for her was enzyme supplements and colon hydrotherapy twice weekly for thirteen weeks. These treaments solved the constipation problem for Mrs. Felicia. She goes to the toliet as desired without having to sit there for long periods waiting, reading, meditating or undergoing other mental or physical diversions.Colon hydrotherapy is excellent as a treatment for the yeast syndrome. A very anxious fifty-year-old female consulted me because she was running to the toliet every two hours with either diarrhea or attempting to find comfort from constipation. It turns out that she had Irritable Bowel Syndrome complicated by candidiasis. During the administration of colon hydrotherapy, I observed the paitent was loaded with candida albicans. I recognized the white yeast organisms floating through the transparent tube of my colon flushing device. But the patient is now in fine shape - much relieved. She has good bowel movements twice daily with no gas. *This is typical of almost all patients undergoing colon hydrotherapy.*"


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

> quote:The practice is currently unregulated in the United States so there is no system to track adverse events from the practice. Some practitioners go through a voluntary certification process. The American College of Gastroenterology takes the position that in the unusual case of fecal impaction complicating chronic constipation, a 5 to 10 ounce tap water enema may be of benefit, but does not otherwise recommend its use


 From wikipedia.That being said, some people feel better when they have them.Be sure that your provider actually follows good proceedures of cleaning and is set up to deal with the off chance that they perforate the colon and you need emergency surgery.Here is another view from people who would also tend to be of the same authority level as your doctor. He doesn't speak for EVERY board certified Gastroenterologsist.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...9&dopt=AbstractAnd here is a report of injuries...http://www.oag.state.tx.us/oagnews/release.php?id=295 so one does need to be careful in selecting a provider.Given some people with IBS have extreme pain from anything that mechanically fills up the colon I think some IBSers may find this proceedure intolerable (When my IBS is bad I can't tolereate the amount of fluid in a fleet enema, I can't imagine how I might have reacted to large volumes of water without any sedation)K.


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## the doc (Feb 8, 2005)

does _anyone_ speak for EVERY board certified Gastroenteroligist? modern day colon hydrotherapy is far safer than most prescription drugs that eventually will take out you, your kidneys, liver or some other part of your body over time and at incredible cost of continued suffering and money. they have caused far more deaths. yet, when was the last time you remember the prolific 'expert' posters here drudging through the internet looking for documentation of their dangers and ineffectiveness and posting them here in their self-appointed roles as your guardian informants and protectors?the water is gently introduced to the colon in small amounts. it has personally worked for me.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

You seemed to be making it sound like since he was board certified he was the end all and be all of experts.In general, most organizations of board certified gastroenterologists do not agree.Just because someone has board certification does not mean they are correct. Or that the information that other people state here that is also generally from board certified GI types, stuff that is published in peer reviewed papers, etc. is always 100% totally wrong.Just saying.I'm glad you found something that worked for you. This doesn't mean it is the best solution for everyone. It would be kinda nice if you could share your experience in a positive way rather than the combative tone you keep taking, but that is just me. K.


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## the doc (Feb 8, 2005)

i trotted out his credentials because you and flux would shoot down anyone less than what he is. i can provide tons more information from NDs that would of course cause chuckling and scoffing to no end.i will without a doubt agree that the majority of GIs, when it comes to IBS would rather shrug their shoulders, write a prescription and send you on your way. my combative tone is just frustration over your continued attempts to discredit what i honestly report here. if i were to do the same i would follow you around to every thread when you recommend a prescription drug and point out how dangerous it is. all my threads here are personal to what has worked for me and people can read it and decide for themselves. i'm not the forum cop.i think it would be nice if you and flux started employing a more balanced approach, by also questioning the harmful dangers of the prescription meds you are quick to suggest to people that come on here looking for relief from their problems.of course you won't get any disagreement from me that not everything works for everyone and even in my case hydrotherapy has been just one (albiet important) part of finding relief and solving the puzzle.don't take it personally and i won't either.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

*I HAVE NEVER SAID PRESCRIPTION DRUGS HAVE NO DANGEROUS SIDE EFFECTS DO YOU HEAR ME NOW!!!!! I READ THE PDR AND SEE ALL THE SORDID DETAILS AND I WANT EVERYONE ELSE TO DO THE SAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HAVE YOU FREAKING MISSED EVERY SINGLE TIME I LOOK THAT INFO UP FOR PEOPLE AND EXPLAIN IT TO THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!apparently so, I must be of the all drugs are completely harmless since I question what you like....sigh*Nothing else to see here, not worth the time to type anything else out, because I fear I'll just be attacked for that too.Take care.K.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

I'm sorry I got so upset.It is just you build various straw men arguements, claim that is what I believe than berate me for these beliefs I do not hold.Very frustrating, and in general not a good way to make your points. Usually it is a way to bully and/or discredit others without having to deal with any real issue.K.


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## JudithB (Mar 29, 2005)

KathMYour advice and information is always most welcome, do not let these ignorant posters get to you.Having said that, i am fed up on these boards at present with the same subjects being "discussed" on more than one forum and I am also concerned for true newbies who will not benefit from all this medical banter. I donot think it appropriate to be arguing - this is meant to be a SUPPORT Board isn't it?? Fine if one sort of therapy has helped someone but it sure won't necessarily help anyone else, especially something like this which at best is controversial.Is there anything you can do about it? I have written to the moderators but obviously what I think isn't relevant. I would like to think that as a 30+year sufferer I do have some experience!!


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## the doc (Feb 8, 2005)

so then you report discussions like this to the moderator because you prefer censorship?i happen to think freedom of speech is a better choice. it lets people decide if they want to explore options that might help them or continue to be closed minded and suffer for thirty years.i made my choice, as have you.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Why is it everyone that promotes something out of the mainstream always goes to "free speech" and the "well you just WANT to suffer for the rest of your life you close-minded person you"Straw man used to attack people who disagree with you A) is bad debate technique and is bullying and







pretty much violates the posting guidelines and people are supposed to report things like that for the good of the community. http://ibsgroup.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/43110261/m/768104531 are the posting guidelines.I don't have a problem with you sharing what works for you, but the constant bullying really gets old, and this is a support group not a bash people you don't agree with group. Discussing the opinions is one thing, but is there any chance you might stop attacking people, it doesn't help your cause at all, you know. If you want an idea of what arguements NOT to make when promoting a health alternative you might check out this http://psorsite.com/docs/quackery.html it lists pretty much every staw man, etc arguement people use that do not really support their position. It isn't just you, a lot of people seem to use the exact same set of arguements right down the "then you just want to suffer forever" thing.It's kinda funny, if it weren't so hurtful to others.K.


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## the doc (Feb 8, 2005)

Oh, you've calmed down enough to let up on the red fonts, eh? The straw man thing is in the head of you and Flux. My opinion is that you both have an agenda within your combined 30,000 posts. Flux's is clear and spelled out in his signature, his little icons and his unsupported personal opinions. You are more stealth, reserved, helpful and logical. The sweet kitten avatar however holds essentially the same position. Which I believe to be: "If it's out of the ordinary and accepted mainstream (a mainstream founded on a few hundred years of only for profit, arrogant ama/pharmacuetical company practices) then you too are on a _mission_ to discredit it in your own, less abrasive and seemingly helpful way."I'm certain you've been helpful to people here but when a poster like me comes along discussing alternative treatments based on taking responsibilty for your conditions, questioning the accepted worthless and too often dangerous treatments of the drug companies, pointing out century old accepted practices that have gotten results (even ancient Egypt in 1400 BC advocated internal cleasning in the Ebers Papyrus) that most importantly have shown promise in my personal case, you feel compelled to discredit them as much as you can.If my style of questioning you on this constant discrediting and what I believe to be your underlying agenda here and the way I post upsets you SO MUCH, perhaps the solution for you is to stop reading my threads and stick to commenting on Tom Cruise in the off topic forums or whatever else anyone with nearly 15,000 posts here needs to do to continue their existence without an apparent life outside these forums.One of the great things here is that people DO find solutions and even cures for themselves and then they are on their way. They don't feel an obligation to take it upon themselves to hang around to become self-appointed experts and guardians of the accepted medical practice mainstream and live here for years on-end taking up those roles, while pushing their agendas.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

The experts studying IBS recommend a holistic and comprehensive approach to treating IBS, both mentally and physically based on many years of research from around the world and specifically newer understanding of IBS and functional disorders.Medications are mainly used for specific reasons and symptoms, if other aproaches fail.I would also say, some medications are a lot of times wanted by the patient.watch the videohttp://www.itvisus.com/programs/hbhm/episode_ibs.asp


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## the doc (Feb 8, 2005)

exactly eric. most every patient wants a magic bullet, a simple pill to swallow and be over it. unfortunately they aren't willing to understand the lifestyle apsects of their conditions, reflect deeply, look at alternatives, realize that if you keep doing what you're doing you'll be getting what you're getting. and too many patients blindly and unquestionably accept and believe whatever our medical system hands out in both advice and treatment. in the end each of us alone is responsible for our health and no one knows our bodies better than we do.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

I have to say I hear this every once in a while."no one knows our bodies better than we do."That is not really true, doctors actually know our bodies better then we do, unless you have spent a whole lot of time studying physiology.But patients may know their symptoms better, because they are the ones feeling them. However a big part of IBS is abnormal feelings.The best approach is working with your doctor, who is hopefully caring and knowledgable about IBS.Doctors are careful to say there is "no magic bullet in IBS."Some people are greatly helped by medications and for specific reasons. Most medications are not all that helpful to IBS. Most people actually get better with education and diet and relaxation techniques or methods used to treat IBS.A lot of people with IBS aren't always helped by alternative methods either, nor may they even be targeting IBS with some alternative methods. I take it your not to happy with the medical system?


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

PS"Many IBS sufferers who have not had good luck with regular medical management of their symptoms try various home remedies and alternative medicine medicine regimens. Unfortunately, they often fall prey to unwarranted claims for symptom relief from anything from herbal and homeopathic medications to colon cleansing, spending a great deal of money and may possibly suffer harm from the effects of such therapies. Among alternatives to medication, only psychological treatments and peppermint oil have the research base to back up their use in IBS."http://www.ibshypnosis.com/IBStreatments.html


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## the doc (Feb 8, 2005)

Eric though it is true that generally no one knows "bodies" better than trained doctors, I would still maintain that know one knows YOUR body better than YOU.As for your PS. PLEASE. Many people may experience relief and freedom from symptoms too, but just because no studies have been done to prove it, that makes them a waste of time or quackery? The problem with colon cleansing is that there is not a lot of money to be made by drug companies on warm water gently washing in and out of the colon to justify spending millions of dollars to study it. So let's just call it useless and move on to the next prescription drug coming to market, shall we? At least the guy you quoted was willing to point out that many people are now six feet under after trusting their board certified, all knowing MDs with Lotronex. And now like another scary "Freddy" feature - IT'S BACK! The in-bed-with-the-drug-companies FDA has said it's okay now - so SURELY it must be! What a complete joke! And the joke is ultimately on the user. The USA today article explaining Lotronex's return to the market says it all,_"Irritable bowel syndrome afflicts millions of Americans, mostly women. It's not life-threatening ..."_ However Lotronex IS life threatening!And this is usually the way it is with prescription drugs - a MAJOR trade off. We can improve some symptom or condition but something will be taken out in the process (liver, kidneys, heart, your life). When it comes to prescriptions, for me, I draw the line at topical. As for your question, I cut my teeth on books like "Medical Nemesis" by Ivan Illich and watched both my parents completely and blindly surrender to western medicine and go down because of it, but I actually think that there is good and bad in everything. It does bring to mind however what I read one time at pkimaging, *"Even western medicine is NOT science; it is an industry which utilizes science. So does the automotive industry. So does the cocaine factory in Columbia. Your doctor sends you to the hospital. You're there for two hours. The bill is $28,000! How's that for science?"* I have lived in other countries and come to respect their centuries of medical history and how they approach dis-ease. India, China, Japan and even Europe are generally more enlightened and open minded about things western vs. alternative and have lately tried to combine the best of both approaches. At the very least they are able to coexist when they don't agree. Their approach and concern is generally more altruistic. My biggest issue in the USA is the intolerance and ridicule of most things alternative and the follow-up gestapo, police state tactics of stamping it out or taking it over to get in on the profit. They are also very big on using scare tactics to get their patients to have surgery or feel that there are no alternatives - there is ALWAYS an alternative just as there are MANY paths to the top of the mountain. I won't even begin to get into how they will arrogantly discredit anything they don't understand or that is foreign or they can't make a buck on. I can remember when acupuncture and even yoga were summarily dismissed as being quackery! Richard Nixon saved us with acupuncture and common sense with yoga, but even today many people think it's useless or at best just plain weird.Perhaps this is a discussion best left for another time and I really don't want to push my bias (_everybody_ has a bias btw) as much as share my results for those who might be interested. It's also the reason I don't go from thread to thread here pushing my experiences, approach or opinions when people come here with complaints or are looking for answers.I'd rather have people seek things out and in that spirit pass along my most recent post from the D forum for anyone that doesn't read my messages over there:I mentioned earlier in this thread that I was going in for my second electro-lymphatic cleanse and colonic treatment yesterday and I just wanted to give an update to those who might still be interested and are willing to consider alternative treatments to help deal with their issues.I also mentioned that I do yoga and have for 34 years. I used to teach it in fact. But here's a perfect example of how colon hydrotherapy has helped me and might others who chose to investigate it for themselves.Many of the asanas (poses or postures) literally have your stomach and lower abdomen in your face - nearly touching it. During the last five week bout of chronic D I suffered through, when I would do these asanas my stomach and colon were bloated, heavy and just didn't feel right. They protruded abnormally and were tender when I pushed them back in. After the colonic and just again tonight while doing my yoga I noticed how my stomach and lower abdomen are flat again and without any of the bloated feelings. It was such a joy to feel and see it as nature intended it and it has been primarily because of the colon hydrotherapy.So put aside the encompassing notion of IBS which is just a descriptive classification and consider instead that for the specific condition we experience and call bloating, I am passing along that in my case, colonics have been a godsend.One final note. If you happen to be a Tony Robbins fan you should know that he is a BIG supporter of colon hydrotherapy. I've always respected his message and was happy to find this out recently.


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## 21430 (Jul 13, 2005)

Well, staying clear of the apparent debate going on here, I would just like to say that I have for years wanted to try colon hydrotherapy but cannot find anyone in my area who does it! Actually, I shouldn't say anyone - one woman advertises in an alternative newspaper here but she just sounds kind of hinky - the ad says that she will do them in exchange for someone doing housework for her. Just doesn't have that ring of professionalism that I would want from someone who is putting a tube in me, if ya know what I mean. But I live in Baltimore MD - you would think that being a large metropolitan area, I could find a practitioner who does colonics. Actually, at a Women's Fair, I approached a person staffing a booth about alternative medicine at a local hospital and asked them about colonics and they looked at me mouth agape and made me feel like a freak. What's the deal? Not caught on here on the East Coast or what? I am desperate to try this as I do constantly have that bloated, constipated feeling and gas? whew, let me tell ya about gas....


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Seems odd. We have a fair number of practioners who do that here, and I don't think this area is that differnet from your part of the East Coast.We have a couple of papers that have a section that has ads for various holistic practioners. One is a weekly, pretty liberal-biased newspaper that is free. The other paper is a holistic health monthly or so that they have at the hospital.Not sure how close this is to you http://www.robertjordanhealthservices.com/...background.htmlfrom there I looked googled http://www.i-act.org/iactsearch.htm and they have a refferal service. Using a baltimore zip code I gotValerie Jackson, RNNATURALLY CLEAN COLON CARE CENTER3535 1/2 Belair Rd. Baltimore, MD 21218USAPhone: 410-488-3344 Email: naturallyclean.colon-care###verizon.netCert. Level: Intermediate LevelNational Board Certification: yesWhich at least sounds like someone who has some trainingOtherwise I would look for some sort of holistic M.D. in your area and look for referals from him if you really want to do this.The industry is not that well regulated so I think being careful in selecting someone is very important. With Alt. Med some of the national orgnizations are better than others at really doing serious training and certifications, but at least if you go through those you know someone at least made some effort above and beyond purchasing some equipment and letting people do their housework







.K.


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## the doc (Feb 8, 2005)

here practitioners can be found in the yellow pages. and incidently, along the lines of what she just added. i am all for certification, setting standards and even licensing of colonic therapists and would highly recommend that if you do this, please use a certified practitioner and the supervised method - where they sit at your side and run the equipment through the entire process. unfortunately in the case of the 72 year old woman who has been referred to in the Texas AG complaint, she was left in a room on her own to self administer (which also uses different equipment), apparently had diminished sensation in her colon, perforated it, had surgery to repair the perforation and died _several months later_ of liver failure. was the colonic the proximate cause? did she decide to do the colonic because her liver was already failing? or did she simply die of old age and liver failure? i don't know, but the reference to the situation just concludes "one death reported" like it is a proven fact that her colonic caused her death. However, since Texas has a law requiring an MD's prescription to have a colonic, coupled with the sensationalism around a 72 year old woman dying that had a colonic several months earlier, this led to a complaint being issued against anyone in TX offering colon hydrotherapy without a prescription.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

> quote:Eric though it is true that generally no one knows "bodies" better than trained doctors, I would still maintain that know one knows YOUR body better than YOU.


I only know my symptoms and how I feel and some basic physiology, since I have been studying it a long time now.Doc, do you know there is a kind of brain in the gut? If some doctor didn't tell me that from my symptoms alone I wouldn't have known I had a "brain in the gut."also"The most common symptoms of IBS patients are related to altered perception of sensations arising from the GI tract, and frequently from sites outside the GI tract, such as the genitourinary system or the musculoskeletal system. Sensations of bloating, fullness, gas, incomplete rectal evacuation and crampy abdominal pain are the most common symptoms patients experience. Numerous reports have demonstrated that a significant percentage of FBD patients (about 60%) rate experimental distensions of the colon as uncomfortable at lower distension volumes or pressures when compared to healthy control subjects. This finding of an increased perception of visceral signals ("visceral hypersensitivity") has been demonstrated during balloon distension tests of the respective part of the GI tract regardless of where their primary symptoms are â€" the esophagus, the stomach, or the lower abdomen. ""The brain has developed mechanisms, which prevent the conscious perception of all visceral information that is not essential for the individual to respond to. However, in patients with FBD, this inhibitory mechanism appears to be compromised. For example, people with IBS commonly experience a persistent sensation of excessive gas, even though carefully designed studies have failed to demonstrate alterations in the gas content of the bowel which correlate with symptoms of bloating. A sensation of incomplete evacuation will make a person try to go to the bathroom many times during the day, even though the rectum is virtually empty. Persons with functional heartburn experience a burning sensation in the esophagus, without abnormal amounts of refluxed acid, and persons with dyspepsia will experience a constant sensation of gastric fullness even though their stomachs are nearly empty."So as a IBS suffers I may feel gas and think its causing distension and bloating, yet there is not abnormal amounts there for example.


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## the doc (Feb 8, 2005)

for me the relevant issue isn't who knows bodies better, the relevant issue is who will be responsible for MY body? who will make the calls when treating my body? i will personally never surrender the control of my living tissue to someone else unless it's my choice to do so.as for the bloating and gas issue, i remember the colon hydrotherapist in my first session remarking, "you seem to have alot of gas or air coming out..."not any more!


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

You didn't answer the question about the brain in the gut?Yes, you take responsiblity to treat yourself for sure.The best way to do that is to take responsiblity in educating yourself on IBS as well, because knowledge about IBS is extremely important in treating IBS.Your cleaning out your colon. But how is that helping your IBS? You know other then the concern for this in general, I don't have a problem with you doing it. But before yopu talk about "root causes and IBS" and there are already methods to treat root causes and IBS that make the majority of people with IBS better.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

PS the brain in the gut.Gut thoughtshttp://www.kiwiterapi.dk/whiplash/frames/gutthoughts.htm


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## the doc (Feb 8, 2005)

yes i know there is a brain in the gut. i also know that it's been there since humans first walked the planet. i am pleased that people are starting to study it and all its complexities.in my opinion IBS is concept from the last ten or fifteen years to try and explain conditions that have been around forever. i'm not totally convinced that it's more than a catch all phrase for an uncertainty whether a person has foreign invaders (bacteria, fungus, viral), bacterial imbalances, allergic reactions, poor diet, poor lifestyle choices, stress, food sensitivities, genetic issues, environmental challenges or a combination of all of the above and the list goes on.my GI simply stated: you had an inflammation of your colon and your stomach. we don't know why. (so they'll call it IBS because nothing could be pinpointed or discovered). if i wanted to get really skeptical i could say IBS is the first step in the process of classification of a condition that allows for the next step - creating a drug to market for that condition. i'll trust the brain in my head to make decisions regarding the brain in my gut.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

IBS is diagnosed when these things are ruled out."(bacteria, fungus, viral), allergic reactions, poor diet, poor lifestyle choices, stress, food sensitivities"although they can all trigger underlying IBS also and some of these conditions can mimick SOME symptoms of IBS.There is a specific cluster of symptoms to diagnose IBS.You know the researchers have already learned there is an alteration in serotonin signaling between the brain and the gut yes? This in part explains the altered motility, d and c and d/c in IBS. They know this is happening in IBS, they just don't know exactly why its happening.Yes functional gi disorders have been around for a long time.A realitivly high percentage of IBSers develop IBS after an enteric gut infection which resolves.History of Functional Disordershttp://johnherr.net/fgidc/historyfunctionaldisorders.htmSome people make the personal decision to take drugs rather then suffer IBS symptoms. But importantly it is not the only way to treat IBS.As far as this is concerned."IBS because nothing could be pinpointed or discovered"That is not really true because a lot of things have been pinpointed and discovered lately and some ruled out even. A lot of research has gone into IBS recently from around the world.How did they test you for Inflammation? How did they test your stomach for inflammation?It also sounds like you need a better doctor.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Doc, one more quick question for you.Are there any treatments you know of that are shown and known to work in IBS? That have research behind them and from more then one center?


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## the doc (Feb 8, 2005)

> quote:Originally posted by eric:You know the researchers have already learned there is an alteration in serotonin signaling between the brain and the gut yes? This in part explains the altered motility, d and c and d/c in IBS. They know this is happening in IBS, they just don't know exactly why its happening.How did they test you for Inflammation? How did they test your stomach for inflammation?It also sounds like you need a better doctor.


eric, no offense but i think the difference in how you view IBS and how i view IBS is different. all the serotonin information tells me is that when a person is subjected to D, C or alternating D and C the serotonin alteration takes place. ok, fine. but i'll bet it's nothing new. in fact it could be a result of the conditions themselves. maybe a chemical imbalance occurs and the serotonion alteration follows.but the difference between my view and yours is, i think it's all fascinating like you but it's the equivalent of examining your hand with a microscope when you have a sunburn. not necessary! the whole idea of a holistic approach to health is to improve the patients fundemental condition and then the body with its miraculous recovery ability will heal itself. i've had holistic doctors generally not even be interested in my symptoms or serotonin levels but want to know what's happening in my life right now? lifestyle issues for example.my GI is good but not alternative or holistic really. we did the colonoscopy and endoscopy and some biopsies and found nothing.my holistic MD is better, but i trust most in my own path.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

"we did the colonoscopy and endoscopy and some biopsies and found nothing."I thought they found inflammation?Serotonin is major in the control of the digestive tract and singaling pain and sensation to the brain. It is important in the two way communication between the brain in the gut and the brain.Role of serotonin in the pathophysiology of the IBShttp://www.nature.com/bjp/journal/v141/n8/full/0705762a.html"maybe a chemical imbalance occurs and the serotonion alteration follows"This is a possiblity and being looked into, before serotonin is metabolized and after, even cloning of cells.But is its dysregulating in the majority of IBSers.also this is just a part of the picture and abnormalities seen in IBS patients. "miraculous recovery ability will heal itself"One reason why the best thing I have ever done was clinical HT for IBS, which also has research to back it up.I am not discounting the bodies ability to heal itself in the slightest. However, its unlikely that most people can "think" the problem away."what's happening in my life right now? lifestyle issues for example.Yes and this is very important and just about every IBS expert agree's with it. Because they know there is a storng connection to emotions and anxiety and stress and IBS and symptoms. This is a big part of why Holistic docotrs make there patients feel better.There is a strong connection also to serotonin and gut feelings and to serotonin and anxiety and emotions.They don't know the cause of depression and anxiety fully, yet they know ways to treat those problems. Same is true for IBS.The current model for IBS is holistic by the way.Thats why they call it the Biopsychosocial model







Because it more holistically looks at the person and condition as a whole.Again, what the experts recommend, a comprehensive and holistic approach to the condition. "These symptoms are the integrated product of altered motility, enhanced visceral sensitivity, and brain-gut dysregulation and often are influenced by psychosocial factors. Early in life, genetics and environmental influences (family attitudes about bowel training or illness in general, major loss or abuse history, or exposure to infection) may affect one's psychosocial development (susceptibility to life stress, psychological state, coping skills, social support) or the development of gut dysfunction (abnormal motility or visceral hypersensitivity). The presence and nature of a functional GI disorder is also determined by the interaction of psychosocial factors and altered physiology via the brain-gut axis. In other words, an individual afflicted with a bowel disorder but with no psychosocial disturbances, good coping skills and adequate social support may have less severe symptoms and not seek medical care. By contrast, another individual having similar symptoms but with coexistent psychosocial disturbance, high life stress, or poor coping skills may frequent his physician's office and have generally poor outcome. "http://johnherr.net/fgidc/historyfunctionaldisorders.htm


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## administrator (Aug 20, 2004)

Please limit post length as per the posting guidelines.Excessively long posts may be truncated if they continue.Thank you for your attention.


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## the doc (Feb 8, 2005)

sorry for the long windedness moderator team.ericthey found mild inflammation or what they considered to be the final healing stages of inflamation but they found no apparent cause for it, with the biopsies.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

A lot of things can cause transient inflammation in the gi tract, including some meds, stress and some foods, some infections ect..By the way some people take nasids for pain in IBS, but they may not only upset the IBS, but also may cause mild inflammation.But you don't have inflammation now?okay mod team 1.


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## the doc (Feb 8, 2005)

it all goes back to my original theory. i had or have something that has never really been eliminated (fungal, bacterial or viral) and during periods of excessive stress it returns and the inflammation occurs which causes the D or the D occurs which causes the inflammation. it would be interesting to know which would come first.being brief, eric, can you explain how stress alone can cause inflammation? i've always been fascinated by the idea.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Some of the theory of how transient inflamation causes IBS has to do with studies on nerves of animals where they induced inflamation.When you look at the ganglion (nerve bundles) in the gut wall inflamation can damage the nerves and reduce their numbers. They think this may be why some people with chronic inflamation in the colon can end up with symptoms when they get the inflamation under control with drugs.This would go this way with stress causing symptoms again is that the inflamation doesn't come back, but that the nervous system has like some holes in it, maybe it can't compensate for things as well, under certain circumstances (depending on your trigger) the IBS can flare up during those times.Sometimes stress has a more direct effect, but I don't know that I would call it inflamation although it does involved some cells that are part of the immune system. The mast cells in the gut have nerves that go to them. When the nerves set the mast cells off they release histamine which causes diarrhea. This may be what causes some food intolerances when you know you ate the food and get sick (but if you don't know you ate it then you do not) The nervous system is conditioned to go X is bad must get rid of X. I had that with raisens for quite some time, but I usually threw them back up. I had gotten really sick on raisen bran and only by avoiding raisins for several years was I able to break that connection.K.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Inflammatory Mediators in Irritable Bowel Syndrome "A Link between Inflamation and StressAn increase in inflammatory mediators alone is insufficient to explain the pathogenesis of IBS. From post-infective IBS, we know that the most people who have gastroenteritis and accompanying inflammation do not develop IBS. As discussed earlier, several factors may be important in interacting with the gut insult and in predicting those who develop symptoms - one interesting factor here is the role of stress. Psychological stress is known to affect gut function in normal healthy humans, and in people with IBS stress may trigger or exacerbate symptoms. More recently there is evidence of a link between stress and inflammatory responses. Exposure to stress in both animals and humans has been shown to result in the release of mast cell mediators in the colon (18,19) and in a recent study stress was capable reactivating previous inflammation in rats (15). An important challenge for future work will be to clarify the interaction between inflammation, stress and IBS symptoms." http://johnherr.net/fgidc/inflammatorymediators.htmAs Kath mentioned, mast cells can become inflame without a pathogen from chronic stressors. The HPA axis is the bodies stress "system." The mast cell in the gut is connected to this system. Mast cells and the serotonin EC cells are both players in IBS.and"In this review, we will provide evidence for the hypothesis that, in the absence of changes in visceral perception and alterations in endogenous pain modulation systems, chronic inflammatory mucosal changes in the gut are not a plausible mechanism to explain the presence of chronic abdominal pain, a clinical hallmark of IBS."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...7517&query_hl=6


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## the doc (Feb 8, 2005)

> quote:Originally posted by Kath M.:The mast cells in the gut have nerves that go to them. When the nerves set the mast cells off they release histamine which causes diarrhea.


 what exactly are mast cells? and kath please accept my apologies for my side of our antagonistic dialogue earlier in this and any other thread. that you were willing to provide a referral to someone interested in investigating colon hydrotherapy further was unexpected and appreciated.it does reaffirm what i said earlier about you - that i am certain you have helped many people here - including me. i appreciate that, so thanks!


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Water under the bridge...hopefully we can move past our difficulties.Mast cells are a part of the immune system that in large part deals with things like parasites, bacteria, or viruses the sorts that you might want to expel from the body.When you sneeze from a cold, or get the runs from a GI infection this is often mediated by the mast cells.When they are triggered (either from the immune system or the nervous system...in case it needs you to dump things out, like often people get diarrhea when the fight or flight system gets activated) they release a number of chemicals out into the area. Histamine is one of these chemicals. When they fire inappropriately to non-threatening stimuli that is what most allergies are about. Some allergy medications are designed to sit on mast cells and make it harder for them to release stuff. Nasalcrom is one of these.People who have disorders of the mastcells often have diarrhea as one of the GI symptoms in addition to a lot of other things going on. There is a version of NasalCrom that can be taken internally rathr than spritzed up the nose and some people have used that for IBS in addition to Mastocytosis which is what I think is its main use.K.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

I just want to add here, that the researchers believe that degrandulating mast cells may contribute to the pain in IBS.I don't know how into it you want to get doc, but here are some excellent lecture series videos.some dealing specifically with the conversations here. These are some top docs here.http://www.conference-cast.com/ibs/Lecture...dRegLecture.cfmPart of the field is neruoimmunology.This is a great book and she is an international expert.http://www.esthersternberg.com/


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## 18951 (Apr 8, 2005)

I found this topic very fascinating, I would love to have that done, I had heard it is quite pricey. Doc alot of what u said made sense to me. I think that getting a healthy colon is a very important step to eliminating alot of IBS symptons, Thanks for your post, Sincerly, Laura


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

IN IBS the colon is healthy.The problem stems from abnormal signaling coming from the colon.Colonics might make you feel better for some perhaps, but it won't do anything to IBS.


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## the doc (Feb 8, 2005)

Laura, they cost around $65 each. Check with a local practitoner.Eric's remarks are focused on IBS and all the research around it. I would guess that over half of the people that come on this board do NOT have what clinically is described IBS. They have some condition that results in D or C, they don't know why, their doctors probably do not know why and they get dumped (no pun intended) in the IBS category.Colon hydrotherapy helped me.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

IBS is one of the most common gi disorders seen in gi clinics. Yes, people can have other condition besides IBS, but most actually have IBS.Hopefully most people were diagnosed using rome ll or have good doctors. If they are unsure they should really ask about it and it would help everyone to educate doctors to be using them.They may also however have other comorbid conditions.Also this is an IBS bb about IBS. The more you learn about IBS the more confident you can be you don't have something else and the most effective ways to treat IBS a very complex condition.This is really worth reading.http://hopkins-gi.nts.jhu.edu/pages/latin/...se=43&lang_id=1


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## the doc (Feb 8, 2005)

this gets back to the standard bone of contention. can your colon REALLY be healthy if it's not working correctly? my position is NO. everything is connected, it's part of your body, even if there is no apparent causative factor if you are not having normal bowel movements your colon is not working correctly and that's you not being healthy and your colon is part of the holistic you!the material you refer to even says there is no inflammation?!? ok then, i guess i never have had IBS since my GI found inflammation. not that i care, i just wanted the chronic d to stop and i could care less whether some pontificating medical research group wants to call what i have IBS or not.i'm sorry but just because all these links you keep referring to are written up by health care people and posted on the internet, it is all WAY too scholastic and in my opinion irrelevant to most people who just want to get better NOW.i would trust my common sense as well, if not more then these academians. cleaning out the colon just makes sense to me (go back and read dr. charm's message in the very first post that started this thread - regarding lingering fecaliths in the pockets of the colon). if you want to start getting _anything_ better, including a simple cut on your finger, you can't go wrong by cleaning up the area where there is a problem, first.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Everyone has some acute inflamation in the colon every so often. If they thought you had a chronic inflamatory bowel disease then they would be treating you for that, and it sounds like they just thought it was one of the transient bugs that everyone has once in a while. Otherwise they would have diagnosed something other than IBS.Just a note on some things I was reading. If you have active inflamation in the colon (like the type that people with ulcerative colitis or crohn's can have) you might want to avoid colon hydrotherapy until you are back in remission. I think when the colon's lining is raw with ulcers it sounded like it could allow the large volume of water to mess up your electrolytes. K.


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