# Candida - and IBS-any suggestions???



## lionala17 (Aug 29, 2003)

I am IBS-D for many, many years and my son has a horrible time with yeast overgrowth that affects his skin and it also affects his intestines resulting in D. Does anyone know of any nutritional supplements that he can take for this?? I don't know if MD can really help. I know cutting back on refined sugars and carbs can help but any other suggestions?? Thanks......


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: and it also affects his intestines resulting in D


Could it be that you don't have a problem with yeast at all?


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

Hi Lionala,Don't mind Flux there - he's a professional sceptic.I followed the program laid out by Dr John McKenna in his book Hard To Stomach. It deals alot with yeast overgrowth. It was not an easy program to follow I ahve to say, and I don'T think I would do it without supervision form a doctor. If you wanted to do it maybe you could tell your MD abuot it if he is open minded enough and follow the plan under his supervision.Good luck,Meckle


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## loulou (Jan 18, 2001)

Hi & welcome,Meckle calls Flux a professional sceptic because Flux believes in things proven by science whereas Meckle believes in things science cannot prove. This is a hot button topic. Yeast overgrowth I believe needs a certain amount of air in order to grow. This is why it can happen in the throat but not in the colon. The program needed to follow to rid the supposed yeast is impossible to follow thus if one doesn't improve then it could be that you just didn't follow the program. I wouldn't do this until I had exhausted all other possiblities twice.What makes you think an MD can't help you? I believe a doctor should be your first line of defense? What about parasites? If everything checks out you might try hypnotherapy?


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## loulou (Jan 18, 2001)

Wanted to ask why do you think it's yeast in the intestine? Maybe the symptoms are something else is all. Perhaps even SIBO.


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## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

Yeast overgrowth I believe needs a certain amount of air in order to grow. This is why it can happen in the throat but not in the colon. Loulou, I thought yeast plus other bacteria/flora in the gut is suppose to be there. if it needs air then how does it survive in the gut? Could you explain?


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

Er yes. Meckle also has been cured.Has Flux or Loulou ?


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## lionala17 (Aug 29, 2003)

I am not sure if yeast is the problem, but it just stands to reason if the skin is over-grown due to yeast, that possibly the GI tract could be also. We all have it, just gets out of control in some and not others.... May have my son see MD, just have not been thrilled with the results too many timnes... That is why I was asking for info on home-remedy cures, sometimes they are the best....


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

lionala17, depends on what your problem, your trying to work on. Has a dermatologist checked the skin problems.Did you and your son have tests done, blood work, three stool tests and perhaps a colonoscopy.Tons of work has been done over the last ten years by many different research labs around the world. So far there is no tie between candida and IBS.Characteristicsof IBS http://www.aboutibs.org/characteristics.html Its very very important not to self diagnose your self.


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

Actually - I take offence to that loulou.I will ask you not to project beliefs on me. I don't have any set beliefs on the yeast issue -who are you to say what I believe ?Any just for the record. Medicine is NOT science.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Yeast overgrowth I believe needs a certain amount of air in order to grow. This is why it can happen in the throat but not in the colon


Yes, but it so happens there is enough (if the opportunity presents).


> quote:it just stands to reason if the skin is over-grown due to yeast, that possibly the GI tract could be also.


There is a a specific condition where it can overgrow on the skin and perhaps it could also be more likely in the gut, but 1) is it really an overgrowth on the skin?2) the gut is ordinarily protected by the bacteria living there


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

This was back in 92 Postgrad Med J. 1992 Jun;68 800:453-4. Related Articles, Links Comment in: Postgrad Med J. 1993 Jan;69 807 :80.The role of faecal Candida albicans in the pathogenesis of food-intolerant irritable bowel syndrome.Middleton SJ, Coley A, Hunter JO.Department of Gastroenterology, Addenbrooke's Hospital, Cambridge, UK.Candida albicans was sought in stool samples from 38 patients with irritable bowel syndrome and 20 healthy controls. In only three patients with irritable bowel syndrome was C. albicans discovered and these patients had either recently received antibiotics or the stool sample had been delayed more than 24 hours in transit. C. albicans was isolated from none of the control stool samples. We conclude that C. albicans is not involved in the aetiology of the irritable bowel syndrome.PMID: 1437926 Stress can also cause skin problems and IBS is highly associated with stressors.However a lot of new research in IBS has found problems.This is a more laymans description of IBS.with permissionIrritable Bowel Syndrome What is an Irritable Bowel?Medically, irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) is known by a variety of other terms: spastic colon, spastic colitis, mucous colitis and nervous or functional bowel. Usually, it is a disorder of the large intestine (colon), although other parts of the intestinal tract -- even up to the stomach -- can be affected. The colon, the last five feet of the intestine, serves two functions in the body. First, it dehydrates and stores the stool so that, normally, a well-formed soft stool occurs. Second, it quietly propels the stool from the right side over to the rectum, storing it there until it can be evacuated. This movement occurs by rhythmic contractions of the colon. When IBS occurs, the colon does not contract normally. instead, it seems to contract in a disorganized, at times violent, manner. The contractions may be terribly exaggerated and sustained, lasting for prolonged periods of time. One area of the colon may contract with no regard to another. At other times, there may be little bowel activity at all. These abnormal contractions result in changing bowel patterns with constipation being most common. A second major feature of IBS is abdominal discomfort or pain. This may move around the abdomen rather than remain localized in one area. These disorganized, exaggerated and painful contractions lead to certain problems. The pattern of bowel movements is often altered. Diarrhea may occur, especially after meals, as the entire colon contracts and moves liquid stool quickly into the rectum. Or, localized areas of the colon may remain contracted for a prolonged time. When this occurs, which often happens in the section of colon just above the rectum, the stool may be retained for a prolonged period and be squeezed into small pellets. Excessive water is removed from the stool and it becomes hard. Also, air may accumulate behind these localized contractions, causing the bowel to swell. So bloating and abdominal distress may occur. Some patients see gobs of mucous in the stool and become concerned. Mucous is a normal secretion of the bowel, although most of the time it cannot be seen. IBS patients sometimes produce large amounts of mucous, but this is not a serious problem. The cause of most IBS symptoms -- diarrhea, constipation, bloating, and abdominal pain -- are due to this abnormal physiology. IBS is not a diseaseAlthough the symptoms of IBS may be severe, the disorder itself is not a serious one. There is no actual disease present in the colon. In fact, an operation performed on the abdomen would reveal a perfectly normal appearing bowel. Rather, it is a problem of abnormal function. The condition usually begins in young people, usually below 40 and often in the teens. The symptoms may wax and wane, being particularly severe at some times and absent at others. Over the years, the symptoms tend to become less intense. IBS is extremely common and is present in perhaps half the patients that see a specialist in gastroenterology. It tends to run in families. The disorder does not lead to cancer. Prolonged contractions of the colon, however, may lead to diverticulosis, a disorder in which balloon-like pockets push out from the bowel wall because of excessive, prolonged contractions. CausesWhile our knowledge is still incomplete about the function and malfunction of the large bowel, some facts are well-known. Certain foods, such as coffee, alcohol, spices, raw fruits, vegetables, and even milk, can cause the colon to malfunction. In these instances avoidance of these substances is the simplest treatment. Infections, illnesses and even changes in the weather somehow can be associated with a flare-up in symptoms. So can the premenstrual cycle in the female. By far, the most common factor associated with the symptoms of IBS are the interactions between the brain and the gut. The bowel has a rich supply of nerves that are in communication with the brain. Virtually everyone has had, at one time or another, some alteration in bowel function when under intense stress, such as before an important athletic event, school examination, or a family conflict. People with IBS seem to have an overly sensitive bowel, and perhaps a super abundance of nerve impulses flowing to the gut, so that the ordinary stresses and strains of living somehow result in colon malfunction. These exaggerated contractions can be demonstrated experimentally by placing pressure- sensing devices in the colon. Even at rest, with no obvious stress, the pressures tend to be higher than normal. With the routine interactions of daily living, these pressures tend to rise dramatically. When an emotionally charged situation is discussed, they can reach extreme levels not attained in people without IBS. These symptoms are due to real physiologic changes in the gut -- a gut that tends to be inherently overly sensitive, and one that overreacts to the stresses and strains of ordinary living. DiagnosisThe diagnosis of IBS often can be suspected just by a review of the patient's medical history. In the end it is a diagnosis of exclusion; that is, other conditions of the bowel need to be ruled out before a firm diagnosis of IBS can be made. A number of diseases of the gut, such as inflammation, cancer, and infection, can mimic some or all of the IBS symptoms. Certain medical tests are helpful in making this diagnosis, including blood, urine and stool exams, x-rays of the intestinal tract and a lighted tube exam of the lower intestine. This exam is called endoscopy, sigmoidoscopy or colonoscopy. Additional tests often are required depending on the specific circumstances in each case. If the proper medical history is obtained and if other diseases are ruled out, a firm diagnosis of IBS then can usually be made. TreatmentThe treatment of IBS is directed to both the gut and the psyche. The diet requires review, with those foods that aggravate symptoms being avoided. Current medical thinking about diet has changed a great deal in recent years. There is good evidence to suggest that, where tolerated, a high roughage and bran diet is helpful. This diet can result in larger, softer stools which seem to reduce the pressures generated in the colon. Large amounts of beneficial fiber can be obtained by taking over-the-counter bulking agents such as psyllium mucilloid (Metamucil, Konsyl) or methylcellulose (Citrucel). As many people have already discovered, the simple act of eating may, at times, activate the colon. This action is a normal reflex, although in IBS patients it tends to be exaggerated. It is sometimes helpful to eat smaller, more frequent meals to block this reflex. There are certain medications that help the colon by relaxing the muscles in the wall of the colon, thereby reducing the bowel pressure. These drugs are called antispasmodics. Since stress and anxiety may play a role in these symptoms, it can at times be helpful to use a mild sedative, often in combination with an antispasmodic. Physical exercise, too, is helpful. During exercise, the bowel typically quiets down. If exercise is used regularly and if physical fitness or conditioning develops, the bowel may tend to relax even during non-exercise periods. The invigorating effects of conditioning, of course, extend far beyond the intestine and can be recommended for general health maintenance. As important as anything else in controlling IBS is learning stress reduction, or at least how to control the body's response to stress. It certainly is well-known that the brain can exert controlling effects over many organs in the body, including the intestine. SummaryPatients with IBS can be assured that nothing serious is wrong with the bowel. Prevention and treatment may involve a simple change in certain daily habits, reduction of stressful situations, eating better and exercising regularly. Perhaps the most important aspect of treatment is reassurance. For most patients, just knowing that there is nothing seriously wrong is the best treatment of all, especially if they can learn to deal with their symptoms on their own. http://www.gicare.com/pated/ecdgs03.htm This is more involved new IBS research. IBS is extremely complicated and still not toally understood in all its complexities.UVM Researchers Identify Molecular Changes in IBS Patients http://www.uvm.edu/news/print/?action=Print&storyID=4188 For a lot more detailed information on all this, go to and sign up to medscape.com, it has an excellent IBS resourse center is free and does not spam you. It does send Updates to you in IBS however. It also supplies IBS info from many sources.From Medscape GastroenterologyMEDLINE Abstracts: Serotonin Signaling and Visceral Hypersensitivity in IBSPosted 10/23/2003 What's new concerning the role of serotonin signaling and mechanisms of visceral hypersensitivity in the pathophysiology of irritable bowel syndrome IBS? Find out in this easy-to-navigate collection of recent MEDLINE abstracts compiled by the editors at Medscape Gastroenterology.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Serotonin and Its Implication for the Management of Irritable Bowel SyndromeGershon MDRev Gastroenterol Disord. 2003;3suppl 2:S25-S34Our understanding of the enteric nervous system ENS has evolved from the "classical" view, in which the brain controls all enteric behavior, to the current view, which holds that enteric innervation is one of local control within the bowel, modified by a bidirectional "dialogue" with the brain. The ENS independently controls enteric reflexes through intrinsic primary afferent neurons, which monitor intraluminal conditions. This monitoring is accomplished through the use of enteroendocrine cells in the mucosa, the best known of which are the serotonin-containing enterochromaffin cells. This article describes the roles that serotonin, specific serotonin-receptor subtypes, and the serotonin reuptake transporter play in the ENS and in the communication between the ENS and central nervous system. The way in which these findings have implicated serotonin in irritable bowel syndrome is discussed.Systematic Review: Serotonergic Modulators in the Treatment of Irritable Bowel Syndrome--Influence on Psychiatric and Gastrointestinal SymptomsKilkens TO, Honig A, Rozendaal N, Van Nieuwenhoven MA, Brummer RJAliment Pharmacol Ther. 2003 ;17:43-51Background: Both central and peripheral serotonergic modulators are used in the treatment of irritable bowel syndrome. The majority of patients with irritable bowel syndrome presenting to a gastroenterologist demonstrate affective dysregulation. Serotonin may play a regulatory role in both gastrointestinal motility and sensitivity, as well as in affective dysregulation, in irritable bowel syndrome.Aim: To analyse, systematically, randomized controlled trials studying the influence of serotonergic modulators on both gastrointestinal and psychiatric symptoms in irritable bowel syndrome, in order to elucidate baseline irritable bowel syndrome symptomatology and possible differential effects of serotonergic modulation on this symptomatology.Methods: A standardized qualitative analysis was performed of studies investigating the influence of serotonergic modulators on both gastrointestinal and psychiatric symptoms in irritable bowel syndrome using a blind review approach. The studies were ranked according to their total quality score maximum 100 points.Results: Eleven studies fulfilled the entry criteria, six of which scored above 55 points. An association between gastroenterological and psychiatric changes was present in five of the six studies.Conclusions: The results strengthen the serotonergic association between gastroenterological and psychiatric symptoms. Adjusted guidelines for combined gastrointestinal and psychiatric assessments are recommended in order to further elucidate the serotonergic interaction between gastrointestinal and psychiatric symptoms.Tegaserod and Other Serotonergic Agents: What Is the Evidence?Chey WDRev Gastroenterol Disord. 2003;3suppl 2:S35-S40Through effects on gastrointestinal motor and secretory function as well as visceral sensation, serotonin 5-HT plays a key role in the pathogenesis of irritable bowel syndrome IBS. In particular, 5-HT3 and 5-HT4 receptors appear to be very important in IBS. This article critically appraises the evidence supporting the use of the 5-HT3 receptor antagonist alosetron in the treatment of women with diarrhea-predominant IBS. The safety profile and restricted-use program for alosetron is also reviewed. This discussion is followed by a comprehensive review of the efficacy and safety data in support of tegaserod for women with constipation-predominant IBS.Sex Differences of Brain Serotonin Synthesis in Patients With Irritable Bowel Syndrome Using Alpha-11CMethyl-L-Tryptophan, Positron Emission Tomography and Statistical Parametric MappingNakai A, Kumakura Y, Boivin M, et alCan J Gastroenterol. 2003;17:191-196Background: Irritable bowel syndrome IBS is the most common functional bowel disorder and has a strong predominance in women. Recent data suggest that the brain may play an important role in the pathophysiology of IBS in the brain-gut axis. It is strongly suspected that serotonin 5-HT, a neurotransmitter found in the brain and gut, may be related to the pathophysiology of IBS. It is reported that a 5-HT3 antagonist is effective only in female patients with diarrhea-predominant IBS.Objective: In the present study, 5-HT synthesis was measured using positron emission tomography, with alpha-11Cmethyl-L-tryptophan as the tracer, in patients with IBS. The aim of the present study was to compare 5-HT synthesis in the IBS patients with that in the controls, and to compare 5-HT synthesis between male and female IBS patients.Methods: Six male and six female nonconstipated IBS patients were scanned. Age-matched healthy volunteers were scanned as controls. Eighty minute dynamic scans were performed. Functional 5-HT synthesis images were analyzed using statistical parametric mapping.Results: 5-HT synthesis was greater only in the female IBS patients in the right medial temporal gyrus multimodal sensory association cortex compared with the female controls P<0.001.Conclusions: The greater brain 5-HT synthesis in the female IBS patients than in the controls may be related to the pathological visceral pain processing of the IBS patients, a larger female predominance of the disorder, and the sex difference of the efficacy of the 5-HT3 antagonist in treatment.Sex-Related Differences in IBS Patients: Central Processing of Visceral StimuliNaliboff BD, Berman S, Chang L, et alGastroenterology. 2003;124:1738-1747Background & Aims: Women have a higher prevalence of irritable bowel syndrome IBS and possible differences in response to treatment, suggesting sex-related differences in underlying pathophysiology. The aim of this study was to determine possible sex-related differences in brain responses to a visceral and a psychological stressor in IBS.Methods: Regional cerebral blood flow measurements using H 2 15 O positron emission tomography were compared across 23 female and 19 male nonconstipated patients with IBS during a visceral stimulus moderate rectal inflation and a psychological stimulus anticipation of a visceral stimulus.Results: In response to the visceral stimulus, women showed greater activation in the ventromedial prefrontal cortex, right anterior cingulate cortex, and left amygdala, whereas men showed greater activation of the right dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, insula, and dorsal pons/periaqueductal gray. Similar differences were observed during the anticipation condition. Men also reported higher arousal and lower fatigue.Conclusions: Male and female patients with IBS differ in activation of brain networks concerned with cognitive, autonomic, and antinociceptive responses to delivered and anticipated aversive visceral stimuli.Functional Brain Imaging in Irritable Bowel Syndrome With Rectal Balloon-Distention by Using fMRIYuan YZ, Tao RJ, Xu B, et alWorld J Gastroenterol. 2003;9:1356-1360Aim: Irritable bowel syndrome IBS is characterized by abdominal pain and changes in stool habits. Visceral hypersensitivity is a key factor in the pathophysiology of IBS. The aim of this study was to examine the effect of rectal balloon-distention stimulus by blood oxygenation level-dependent functional magnetic resonance imaging BOLD-fMRI in visceral pain center and to compare the distribution, extent, and intensity of activated areas between IBS patients and normal controls.Methods: Twenty-six patients with IBS and eleven normal controls were tested for rectal sensation, and the subjective pain intensity at 90 ml and 120 ml rectal balloon-distention was reported by using Visual Analogue Scale. Then, BOLD-fMRI was performed at 30 ml, 60 ml, 90 ml, and 120 ml rectal balloon-distention in all subjects.Results: Rectal distention stimulation increased the activity of anterior cingulate cortex 35/37, insular cortex 37/37, prefrontal cortex 37/37, and thalamus 35/37 in most cases. At 120 ml of rectal balloon-distention, the activation area and percentage change in MR signal intensity of the regions of interest ROI at IC, PFC, and THAL were significantly greater in patients with IBS than that in controls. Score of pain sensation at 90 ml and 120 ml rectal balloon-distention was significantly higher in patients with IBS than that in controls.Conclusion: Using fMRI, some patients with IBS can be detected having visceral hypersensitivity in response to painful rectal balloon-distention. fMRI is an objective brain imaging technique to measure the change in regional cerebral activation more precisely. In this study, IC and PFC of the IBS patients were the major loci of the CNS processing of visceral perception.Role of Visceral Sensitivity in the Pathophysiology of Irritable Bowel SyndromeDelvaux MGut. 2002;51 suppl 1:i67-i71Visceral hypersensitivity has been recognised as a characteristic of patients with irritable bowel syndrome IBS. It may be involved in the pathogenesis of abdominal pain/discomfort, and seems to result from the sensitisation of nerve afferent pathways originating from the gastrointestinal tract. From a clinical point of view, hypersensitivity, although frequent, is not a constant finding among patients with IBS and cannot therefore be considered as a diagnostic marker of the condition. The advances made in understanding visceral hypersensitivity in patients with IBS are reviewed: the factors that influence abdominal distension are defined and different therapeutic perspectives are examined.www.medscape.com/viewarti...02/7001/-1This is from above and is very important to IBS."Both central and peripheral serotonergic modulators are used in the treatment of irritable bowel syndrome. The majority of patients with irritable bowel syndrome presenting to a gastroenterologist demonstrate affective dysregulation. Serotonin may play a regulatory role in both gastrointestinal motility and sensitivity, as well as in affective dysregulation, in irritable bowel syndrome."--------------------FYIGut ThoughtsThough few know about it, humans have a second brain that handles most of the body's digestive functions. Study of the enteric nervous system is a rapidly growing specialty, offering insight into malfunctions of the "gut brain" as well as the more complex cranial brain. Digestion is such a prosaic function that most people prefer not to think about it. Fortunately, they don't have to ï¿½ at least not with the brain in their heads. Though few know about it, humans (and other animals) have a second brain that handles most digestive functions. Deep in your gut lies a complex self-contained nervous system containing more nerve cells than the spinal cord, and indeed more neurons than all the rest of the peripheral nervous system. There are over 100 million nerve cells in the human small intestine alone. Malfunctions of this "gut brain" may be involved in irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), a condition that affects an estimated 20 percent of the U.S. population and is believed to be responsible for $8 billion in health care costs alone in the United States each year, according to the International Foundation for Functional Gastrointestinal Disorders. Patients with IBS suffer bouts of chronic diarrhea, constipation, or sometimes both alternately. IBS is the most common diagnosis made by gastroenterologists. The study of the enteric nervous system is a rapidly growing specialty known as neurogastroenterology. "What the gut has to do is extremely complicated," says Michael Gershon, chair of the department of anatomy and cell biology at the Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons and author of The Second Brain (Harper Perennial, 1999). "If the brain had to control that, it would have to run huge cables and have a huge number of cells devoted solely to that purpose. It makes great evolutionary sense to [separate these functions] and essentially use a microcomputer that is independent rather than a central processing unit." In fact, researchers believe that the gut brain evolved first ï¿½ because digestion came before locomotion in multicellular creatures. In mammals, the two systems originate near each other in the outer layer of the early embryo. Like many poorly understood organs, the gut brain was discovered by classical anatomists in the 19th century and then ignored. "No one knew what it did," says David Wingate, emeritus professor of gastrointestinal science at Queen Mary, University of London. "When you'd ask what it was for in medical school, they'd say, 'Let's move on.' " In 1899, physiologists studying dogs found that unlike any other reflex, the continuous push of material through the digestive system (now called the peristaltic reflex) continued when nerves linking the brain to the intestines were cut. By the 1970s, a society for the study of gastrointestinal motility had been set up ï¿½ but how this motility was controlled remained unclear. The vagus nerve, for example, sends some fibers from the brain to the gut; however, it connects directly with only a tiny minority of cells there. In 1965, Gershon published a paper in Science suggesting that serotonin might act as a neurotransmitter in the gut. At the time, acetylcholine and norepinephrine were accepted as transmitters in the peripheral nervous system, but serotonin was seen as a centrally acting transmitter used by some nerves to modulate the action of others. The peripheral nervous system wasn't supposed to use such controls ï¿½ only the brain and spinal cord were believed to process information through "interneurons" such as those containing serotonin. At a meeting of the Society for Neuroscience in 1981, however, Gershon and others marshaled enough data to finally convince skeptics that serotonin was indeed a key transmitter in the gut. In fact, it is now known that 95% of the body's serotonin is used by the gut ï¿½ and the enteric nervous system contains every neurotransmitter and neuromodulator found so far in the brain. "We now know quite a lot about the library of programs run by the [gut brain]," says Jackie Wood, professor of physiology and cell biology and of internal medicine at Ohio State University. "For example, when the bowel is empty, one particular program runs." Called the migrating motor complex (MMC), this involves a series of movements running from the stomach to the end of the small intestine, which is believed to function in keeping the potentially dangerous bacteria stored in the colon from moving upwards rather than out. At least 500 different species of deadly bacteria have been found to inhabit a person's colon at any given time; "traveler's diarrhea" often results when this mix is changed through exposure to new pathogens. If this happens, the gut runs a program designed to expel as much of its contents as quickly as possible ï¿½ unpleasant for the vacationer, but much better than a fatal infection. "Another program involves a flood of serotonin throughout the entire circuit, which produces the digestive pattern that mixes and stirs the contents," says Wood. Because the gut brain is smaller and more accessible than the brain itself, understanding it could offer insights about how to parse the more complex organ. "[That idea] was what lead me to begin my research when I was a fledgling neuroscientist," says Gershon. "I looked at the brain and found it daunting, and I still do, so I looked for a simpler nervous system to study." He adds, " 'Simple nervous system,' of course, turned out to be an oxymoron." Unlike the cranial brain, however, the gut brain doesn't seem to be conscious ï¿½ or at least, in health, it doesn't impinge much on consciousness. "The gut is not an organ from which you like to receive frequent progress reports," says Gershon. For most digestive processes, no news is good news. The problem in IBS, in fact, may be that the enteric nervous system becomes overly sensitive to normal functioning and reports to the brain when it shouldn't. Or, the brain may overreact to normal bowel signals. Normally, the brain may avoid conscious awareness of most gut activity. But in IBS, says Wingate, one theory is that "the barrier to information being projected into consciousness is lowered." As in many heterogeneous conditions defined by symptoms rather than specific pathology, different subgroups of patients may have different causes or varying levels of contributions by different factors. In some cases, IBS may be an autoimmune problem ï¿½ something like multiple sclerosis of the gut, where immune cells attack nervous tissue. "If you catch it early enough," says Wood, "You can use steroids to treat it [in such cases]." High doses of steroids shut down immune activity and prevent immune cells from causing harm, but they don't help once damage has been done. The gut is, in fact, a major immune organ, containing more immune cells than the rest of the body combined. The enteric nervous system interacts intimately with the immune system, and can affect mood and behavior by signaling the central nervous system. Further, the gut brain may in fact be the only system that can refuse central signals. Says Gershon, "The gut brain can say no to the big brain, absolutely. In fact, there are nerve fibers that project towards the CNS, and if the [bowel] doesn't like the message, it can turn it off or cancel it." Indeed, the vagus nerve mostly carries information from the enteric nervous system to the brain ï¿½ for every one message sent by the brain to the gut, about nine are sent in the other direction. And recent research has found that stimulating this nerve can have antidepressant and even learning-enhancing effects ï¿½ so "gut feelings" could genuinely be more than just a metaphor. The similarities between the two nervous systems may also mean that they are vulnerable to similar toxins and disease processes. For example, in both Parkinson's disease and Alzheimer's, the degenerative processes seen in brain nerve cells are also seen in the neurons of the enteric system. by Maia SzalavitzDin meningPiskesmï¿½ld har fysiske og kemiske ï¿½rsagerSchleudertrauma hat physische und chemische Ursachen (deutsch)ï¿½velser til genoptrï¿½ning efter whiplash This link could also help explain the connection between psychological problems and gut problems ï¿½ and could put to rest the myth that problems such as IBS are simply "neuroses" because they so often occur in people with other psychological disorders. It may be that the real reason that bowel disorders often accompany psychological problems is that both brain and gut neurons are suffering simultaneously ï¿½ in addition to the fact that having to spend a significant portion of one's life attending to bathroom functions is in itself depressing. Simultaneous effects of drugs on both systems also account for the gastrointestinal "side effects" of Prozac and other drugs that act on serotonin metabolism ï¿½ which actually may have more effect on the bowel than on the brain, because serotonin predominates in the bowel and the drug moves through the digestive system before reaching the brain. Fortunately, in most people, the bowel quickly develops tolerance to these drugs, and gastrointestinal side effects usually subside within a few days or weeks of the start of treatment. In fact, low doses of SSRI (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor) drugs may actually help patients with IBS. And since different serotonin receptors predominate in the brain and in the gut, new drugs may be developed to affect certain subtypes but not others. "What's exciting," says Wingate, "is getting away from essentially anecdotal ways of categorizing patients by symptoms and being able to study their Problems in a very systematic biological way." http://www.kiwiterapi.dk/whiplash/frames/gutthoughts.htm Complex and Hidden Brain in Gut Makes Bellyaches and ButterfliesEver wonder why people get "butterflies" in the stomach before going on stage ? Or why an impending job interview can cause an attack of intestinal cramps ? And why antidepressants targeted for the brain cause nausea or abdominal upset in millions of people who take such drugs ? The reason for these common experiences, scientists say, is that the body has two brains - the familiar one encased in the skull and a lesser known but vitally important one found in the human gut Like Siamese twins, the two brains are interconnected ; when one gets upset, the other does, too. The gut's brain, known as the enteric nervous system, is located in sheaths of tissue lining the oesophagus, stomach, small intestine and colon. Considered a single entity, it is a network of neurons, neurotransmitters and proteins that zap messages between neurons, support cells like those found m the brain proper and a complex circuitry that enables it to act independently, learn, remember and, as the saying goes, produce gut feelings.The brain in the gut plays a major role in human happiness and misery. But few people know it exists, said Dr. Michael Gershon, a professor of anatomy and cell biology at Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center in New-York. For years, people who had ulcers, problems swallowing or chronic abdominal pain were told that their problems were imaginary, emotional, simply all in their heads. Dr. Gershon said. They were shuttled to psychiatrists for treatment. Doctors were right in ascribing these problems to the brain. Dr. Gershon said, but they blamed the wrong one. Many gastro-intestmal disorders like colids and irritable bowel syndrome originate from problems within the gut's brain, he said. And the current wisdom is that most ulcers are caused by a bacterium, not by hidden anger at one's mother.Symptoms stemming from the two brains get confused. Dr. Gershon said. "Just as tlie brain can upset the gut, the gut can also upset the brain" he said. "If you were chained to the toilet with cramps, you'd be upset too." Details of how tlie enteric nervous system mirrors the central nervous system have been emerging in recent years, said Dr. Gershon, who is considered one of a new field of medicine called neurogastroenterology. Nearly every substance that helps run and control the brain has turned up in the gut. Dr. Gershon said. Major neurotransmitters like serotonin, dopamine, glutamate, norepinephrine and nitric oxide are there. Two dozen small brain proteins, called neuropepddes, are in the gut, as are major cells of the immune system. Enkephalins, one class of the body's natural opiates, are in the gut And in a finding that stumps researchers, the gut is a rich source of benzodiazepines - the family of psychoacrive chemicals that includes such ever popular drugs as Valium and Xanax. In evolutionary terms, it makes sense that the body has two brains, said Dr. David Wingate, a professor of gastrointestinal science at the University of London and a consultant at tlie Royal London Hospital. The first nervous systems were intubular animals that stuck to rocks and waited for food to pass by. Dr. Wingate said. The limbic system is often referred to as the "reptile brain". As life evolved, animals needed a more complex brain for finding food and sex and so developed a central nervous system. But the gut's nervous system was too important to put inside the newborn head with long connections going down to the body. Dr. Wingate said. O-ffsprmg need to eat and digest food at birth. Therefore, nature seems to have preserved the enteric nervous system as independant circuit. Inside higher animals, it is only loosely connected to the central nervous system and can mostly function alone, without insructions from topside. This is indeed the picture seen bydevelopmental biologists. A clump of tissue called the neural crest forms early in emblyogenesis. Dr. Gershon said. One section turns into the central nervous system. Another piece migrates to become the enteric nervous system. Only later arte the two nervous systems connected via a cable called the vagus nerve. Untill relatively recently, people thought that the gut's muscles and sensory nerves were vyired directly to the brain and that the brain controlled the gut through two pathways that increased or decreased rates of activity. Dr. Wingate said. The gut was simply a tube with simples reflexes. Trouble is, no one bothered to count the nerve fibers in the gut. When they did, he said, they were surprised to find that the gut contains 100 million neurons - more that the spinal cord has. Yet the vagus nerve only sends a couple of thousand nerve fibers to the gut. The brain sends signals to the gut by talking to a small number of "command neurons", which in turn send signals to gut intemeurons that cany messages up and down the pike. Dr. Gershon said. Both command neurons and interneurons are spread throughout two layers of gut tissue called the myenteric plexus and the subrnuscosal plexus. ("Solar plexus" is actually a boxing term that refers simply to nerves in the abdomen.) Command neurons control the pattern of activity in the gut. Dr. Gershon said. The vagus nerve only alters the volume by changing its rate of firing. The plexuses also contain glial cells that nourish neurons, mast cells involved in immune responses, and a "blood brain barrier" that keeps harmful substances away from important neurons. Dr. Gershon said. They have sensors for sugar, protein, acidity and other chemical factors that might monitor the progress of digestion, determining how the gut mixes and propels its contents. "It's not a simple pathway", he said. "It uses complex integrated circuits not unlike those found in the brain." The gut's brain and the head's brain act the same way when they are deprived of input from the outside world. Dr. Wingate said. During sleep, the head's brain produces 90-minute cycles of slow wave sleep punctuated by periods of rapid eye movement sleep in which dreams occur. During the night, when it has no food, the gut's brain produces 90-minute cycles of slow wave muscle contractions punctuated by short bursts of rapid muscle movements. Dr. Wingate said.The two brains may influence each other while in this state. Dr. Wingate said. Patients with bowel problems have been shown to have abnormal REM sleep. This finding is not inconsistent with the folk wisdom that indigestion can produce nightmare. As light is shed oA the circuitly between the two brains, researchers are beginning to understand why people act and feel the way they do. When the central brain encounters a frightening situation, it releases stress hormones that prepare the body to fight or flee. Dr. Gershon said. The stomach contains many sensory nerves that are stimulated by this chemical surge - hence the "butterflies". On the battlefield, the higher brain tells the gut brain to shut down. Dr. Gershon said. "A frightened, running animal does not stop to defecate", he said. Fear also causes the vagus nerve to "turn up the volume" on serotonin circuits in the gut. Dr. Gershon said. Thus overstimulated, the gut goes into higher gear and diarrhea results. Similarly, people sometimes "choke" with emotion. When nerves in the oesophagus are highly stimulated, people have trouble swallowing. Even the so-called "Maalox moment" of advertising fame can be explained by the two brains interacting, said Dr. Jackie D. Wood, chairman of the department of physiology at Ohio State University in Columbus. Stress signals from the head's brain can alter nerve function between the stomach and oesophagus, resulting in heartburn.In cases of extreme stress. Dr. Wood said, the higher brain seems to protect the gut by sending signals to immunological mast cells in the plexus. The mast cells secrete histamine, prostaglandin and other agents that help produce inflammation, he said. "This is protective. If an animal is in danger and subject to trauma, dirty stuff in the intestines is only a few cells away from the rest of the body. By inflaming the gut, the brain is priming the gut for surveillance. If the barrier breaks, the gut is ready to do repairs". Dr. Wood said. Unfortunately, the chemicals that get released also cause diarrhea and cramping. Such cross talk also explains many drug interactions. Dr. Gershon said. "When you make a drug to have psychic effects on the brain, it's veiy likely to have an effect on the gut that you didn't think about", he said. Conversely, drugs developped for the brain could have uses in the gut.For example, the gut is loaded with neurotransmitter serotonin. When pressure receptors in the gut's lining are stimulated, serotonin is released and starts the reflexive motion of peristalsis. Dr. Gershon said. Now a quarter of people taking Prozac or similar antidepressants have gastrointestmal problems like nausea, diarrhea and constipation, he said. These drugs act on serotonin, preventing its uptake by target cells so that it remains more abundant in the central nervous system.In a study to be published soon. Dr. Gershon and his colleagues explain Prozac's side effects ont the gut. They mounted a section of guinea pig colon on a stand and put a small pellet in the "mouth" end. The isolated colon whips the pellet down to the "anal" end of the column, just as it would inside an animal. Dr. Gershon said. When the researchers put a small amount of Prozac into the colon, the pellet "went into high gear". Dr. Gershon said. The drug doubled the speed at which the pellet passed through the colon, which would explain why some people get diarrhea. Prozac as been used in small doses to treat chronic constipation, he said.But when researchers increased the amount of Prozac in the guinea pig colon, the pellet stopped moving. The colon froze up. Dr. Gershon said, which is why some people get constipated on the drug. And because Prozac stimulated sensory nerves, he said, it can also cause nausea. Some antibiotics like crythromycin act on gut receptors to produce oscillations. Dr. Gershon said. People experience cramps and nausea. Drugs like morphine and heroin attach to the gut's opiate receptors, producing constipation. Indeed, both brains can be addicted to opiates. Victims of AIzheimer's and Parkingson's diseases suffer from constipation. The nerves in their gut are as sick as the nerve cells in their brains. Just as the central brain affects the gut, the gufs brain can talk back to the head. Dr. Gershon said. Most of the gut sensations that enter conscious awareness are negative things like pain and bloatedness. Dr. Wingate said. People do not expect to feel anything good from the gut but that does not mean such signals are absent, he said. Hence, the intriguing question : why does the human gut produce benzodiazepine 7 The human brain contains receptors for benzodiazepine, a drug that relieves anxiety, suggesting that the body produces its own internal source of the drug, said Dr. Anthony Basile, a neurochemist in the Neuroscience Laboratory at the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Md. Several years ago, he said, an Italian scientist made a startling discovery. Patients with their liver failure fall into a deep coma. The coma can be reversed, in minutes, by giving the patient a drug that blocks benzodiazepine. When the liver falls, substances usually broken down by the liver get to the brain. Dr. Basile said. Some are bad, like ammonia and mercaptans, which are "smelly compounds that skunks spray on you", he said. But a series of compounds are also identical to benzodiazepine. "We don't know if they come from gut itself, from bacteria in the gut or from food". Dr. Basile said. But when the liver falls, the gut's benzodiazepine goes straight to the brain, knocking the patient unconscious. The payoff for exploring gut and head brain interactions is enormous. Dr. Wood said. For example, many people are allergic to certain foods, like shellfish. This is because mast cells in the gut mysteriously become sensitized to antigens in the food. The next time the antigen shows up in the gut. Dr. Wood said ; the mast cells call up a program, releasing chemical modulators that try to eliminate the threat. The allergic person gets diarrhea and cramps, he said. Many autoimmune diseases like Krohn's disease and ulcerative colitis may involve the gut's brain. Dr. Wood said. The consequences can be horrible, as in Chagas disease, which is caused by a parasite found in South America. Those infected develop an autoimmune response to neurons in their gut. Dr. Wood said. Their immune systems slowly destroy their own gut neurons. When enough neurons die, the intestines literally explode. A big question remains. Can the gut's brain learn 7 Does it "think" for itself 7 Dr. Gershon tells a story about an old Army sergeant, a male nurse in charge of a group ofparaplegics. With their lower spinal cords destroyed, the patients would get impacted."The sergeant was anal compulsive". Dr. Gershon said. "At 10 A.M. eveiyday, the patients got enemas. Then the sergeant was rotated off the ward. His replacement decided to give enemas only after compactions occured. But at 10 the next morning, everyone on the ward had a bowel movement at the same time, without enemas". Dr. Gershon said. Had the sergeant trained those colons?The human gut has long been seen as a repositoiy of good and bad feelings. Perhaps emotional states from the head's brain are mirrored in the gut's brain, were they are felt by those who pay attention to them. The "brain in the gut" takes the form of two networks of neural connections in the lining of the gastrointestinal tract, called the myenteric plexus and the subrnucosal plexus. The nerves are highly interconnected and have direct influence on things like the speed of digestion, the movement and secretions of the finger-like mucosa that line the intestines and the contractions of the different kinds of muscle in the gut wall. [Diagram # 1] GUT-BRAIN HIGHWAY: A 2-WAY STREET:The gut has a mind of its own, the enteric nervous system. Just like the larger brain in the head, researchers say, this system sends and receives impulses, records and experiences and responds to emotions. Its nerve cells are bathed and influenced by the same nerotransmitters. The gut can upset the brain just as the brain can upset the gut. [Diagram #2]Diagram of wall of small intestine, with layers cut away to show two networks of nerves that make up enteric nervous system, or "brain in the gut". One network, called the subrnucosal plexus, is just under the mucosal lining. One, the myenteric plexus, lies between two coats of muscle. Sandra BLAKESLEE, The New York Times, Januaiy 23rd, 1996. http://www.aikidoaus.com.au/dojo/docs/2nd_braina.htm Ask The Expert.Image of a cadeusus. .General Medical Questions.Q: I have suffered from irritable-bowel syndrome for many years. I get diarrhea. The doctors I've seen have offered little help. Recently, my daughter suggested I try an over-the-counter medicine called "5-Hydroxy-tryptophan," made by a company called Natrol Inc. My daughter says it is a mild antidepressant. It seems to have helped quite a bit, but it also seems to slow me down and make me feel tired. Can you give me any information on this? What is it, exactly, and are there any serious side effects? The only other medicine I take is Synthroid....The Trusted Source..Harold J. DeMonaco, M.S.Harold J. DeMonaco, M.S., is senior analyst, Innovative Diagnostics and Therapeutics, and the chair of the Human Research Committee at the Massachusetts General Hospital. He is author of over 20 publications in the pharmacy and medical literature and routinely reviews manuscript submissions for eight medical journals...June 19, 2001.A:Irritable bowel syndrome is now recognized as a disorder of serotonin activity. Serotonin is a neurotransmitter in the brain that regulates sleep, mood depression, anxiety, aggression, appetite, temperature, sexual behavior and pain sensation. Serotonin also acts as a neurotransmitter in the gastrointestinal tract.Excessive serotonin activity in the gastrointestinal system enteric nervous system is thought to cause the diarrhea of irritable-bowel syndrome. The enteric nervous system detects bowel distension expansion on the basis of pressure-sensitive cells in the bowel lumen opening. Once activated, these pressure-sensitive cells promote the release of serotonin, which in turn promotes both secretory function and peristaltic function the contractions of the intestines that force the contents outward. At least four serotonergic receptors have been identified to be participants in the secretory and peristaltic response.Patients with diarrhea-predominant IBS may have higher levels of serotonin after eating than do people without the disorder. This recognition led to the development of the first drug used specifically to treat diarrheal symptoms of IBS, alosetron also known as Lotronex. Alosetron blocked the specific serotonin receptors responsible for recognizing bowel distention. In doing so, it blocked the effects of serotonin and reduced both bowel secretions and peristalsis. Constipation was the most common side effect seen. Note: Alosetron was removed from the market by the manufactur


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

With permission from the UNCStress and the GutDr. Howard MertzAssociate Professor of Medicine and RadiologyVanderbilt UniversityStress is a ubiquitous condition that affects all people. Stress can be mental or physical, although in the context of this article the focus will be mental stress. Mental stress involves challenge, threat or worry about future adverse events. Such stress activates the brainï¿½s stress response systems, which in turn effect the body. Many of the bodyï¿½s major systems are altered by stress cardiovascular, muscular, urinary, gastrointestinal, sweat glands, etc often with adverse consequences. Gastrointestinal function is particularly influenced by stress. Common gastrointestinal symptoms due to stress are heartburn, indigestion, nausea and vomiting, diarrhea, constipation and associated lower abdominal pain. These symptoms and the alterations in intestinal function that cause them are becoming understood.Gastrointestinal Stress Reactions in Animals and CRFIn animals such as rats, stress can be induced in experimental situations. When rats are wrap restrained, or placed on a small platform surrounded by water they become stressed. During these situations, alterations in motility of the gut occur. The upper gut, including the stomach and small intestine, exhibits markedly reduced transit. This may be a defense mechanism to promote vomiting and reduce oral intake. Conversely the large bowel motility increases with increased stool output and transit speed. This may be a defense mechanism to eliminate toxins. We have learned that a hormone called corticotropin releasing factor CRF influences these changes. CRF is released from nerve cells in the hypothalamus of the brain. These nerve cells release the hormone via long processes into other parts of the brain such as the locus ceruleus, where arousal and autonomic nervous system changes are mediated. In rats, injection of CRF blockers into the brain fluid diminishes the stress induced motility changes in the gut. CRF directly injected into the brain fluid mimics the stress response closely Figure 1. CRF also stimulates the gut directly via CRF-1 and CRF-2 receptors. CRF-1 receptors stimulate colonic contractions, while CRF-2 receptors reduce upper gut activity. Antagonists to CRF-1 receptors are currently being tested for treatment of depression, and may become available for testing in functional bowel disorders as well.Brain Areas Involved in Stress ReactionTwo of the primary brain regions involved in stress reactivity are the hypothalamus and the locus ceruleus. Activation of the hypothalamus by stress is likely to be mediated in part by the limbic brain particularly the amygdala and hippocampus and partly by the locus ceruleus in the brainstem. The locus ceruleus and the hypothalamus actually stimulate each other, creating the potential for a vicious cycle, where a stress reaction in one region stimulates the other, which in turn stimulates the first to react even more. The limbic system is a group of connected and related brain regions that mediate emotions and flight or fight attitudes. The limbic or ï¿½emotional brainï¿½ is more primitive by evolutionary standards, and is not necessarily under control by the higher intellectual cortex. This system receives sensory and higher cortical inputs, calls upon memories and determines the threat level imposed by a stimulus. The amygdala for instance is a limbic structure in the base of the brain that is important in anger and rage. In cats, electrical stimulation of the amygdala causes hissing, back arching and the hair to stand on end, typical of anger and defense postures in cats. In animals that have damage to the amygdala a placid state results in which anger cannot be induced. Inputs to the amygdala are thought to originate from the hippocampus, the cingulate cortex and other parts of the limbic sytem. The locus ceruleus is located in the pontine portion of the brainstem. The locus ceruleus is the source of most of the stimulant neurotransmitter norepinephrine in the nervous system. Cells here project to other brain areas, releasing norepinephrine to activate other systems and increase arousal and alertness. Release of norepinephrine increases heart rate, blood pressure and primes the muscles and nervous system for fight or flight. This reaction is not helpful in routine stress of daily activities. If the stress reaction is excessive or the perceived threat too frequent, tachycardia racing heart, hypertension, muscle tension, bowel spasms and dyspepsia can result.Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Adrenal AxisCRF release is the first step in activation of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis HPA axis involved in stress response. This is the major endocrine hormonal response system to stress. Release of CRF by the hypothalamus stimulates the pituitary gland immediately underneath it. The pituitary gland responds to CRF by release of adreno-corticotropic hormone ACTH to stimulate adrenal gland secretion of the stress hormone cortisol. Cortisol promotes fluid and salt retention and impairs inflammation, functions helpful in the short term during flight or fight situations or injury. Again, if the HPA system is activated too frequently adverse health outcomes such as hypertension from salt retention and impaired immune function from excess cortisol may result. The CRF system and the norepinephrine systems work together to respond to stress with resultant changes in bodily functions that prepare for flight or fight. Figure 2Gastrointestinal Stress Response in HumansHumans respond to stress in similar ways to animals. A variety of human studies indicate stress promotes decreased gastric emptying and accelerated colonic transit in normal volunteers. A pioneering study by Almy measured colonic contractions during flexible sigmoidoscopy. The volunteers were told that a cancer was found, leading to abrupt increases in colonic contractions, which resolved after the hoax was explained. Other stressors such as ball-sorting, driving in city traffic and mentally challenging listening tasks similarly increase colonic contractions and reduce gastric motility. Recent data also indicates that intestinal sensitivity increases with stress compared to relaxation. This effect may lower the threshold for sensing intestinal events. In gastroesophageal reflux for example, psychological stressors can increase heartburn symptoms. Analysis of the esophageal pH measurement of acid indicates that the amount of reflux doesnï¿½t increase during stress, but the probability of feeling a reflux as heartburn does increase. In one small study of normal controls, intravenous infusion of CRF induced greater rectal sensitivity to balloon distension. It may be that the sensitizing effects of stress on the gut are partly mediated by the stress hormone CRF. Irritable Bowel Syndrome and Functional DyspepsiaTwo of the major causes of uncomfortable or painful intestinal symptoms are irritable bowel syndrome IBS and functional dyspepsia. IBS occurs in approximately 12% of people world-wide. Dyspepsia indigestion/upper abdominal discomfort is also very common. The majority of dyspepsia is functional, that is not associated with ulcers, gallstones, reflux esophagitis or cancer. In both of these common disorders, motility and sensory changes are present which mimic the stress state. Both disorders demonstrate hypersensitivity of the gut either stomach or intestine. Both disorders demonstrate alterations in motor function of the gut typical of stress and CRF-induced changes. In functional dyspepsia the stomach generally has mildly reduced emptying and reduced accommodation of meals. In IBS, colonic contractions are generally increased. Furthermore, IBS subjects appear to have increased stress responsiveness in the gut. In one study, IBS patients and healthy controls both underwent ambulatory motility recordings in the colon. Both groups were confronted on return to the lab ï¿½youï¿½re lateï¿½, ï¿½you came to the wrong windowï¿½, ï¿½now the study may need to be repeatedï¿½. Colonic motility jumped up in the IBS patients during confrontation, but not in healthy volunteers. Figure 3 IBS patients may also have greater sensitivity to the stress hormone CRF. Infusion of CRF intravenously to IBS patients and controls in one study caused significantly greater colonic motor responses in IBS patients. Another study indicates that listening stress increases rectal sensitivity to balloon distension in IBS patients but not controls. It appears both intestinal motility and sensory responses to stress are heightened in IBS patients. These alterations are likely to cause symptoms such as diarrhea and intestinal cramps due to increased contractions of the gut and increased sensitivity of the gut during stress. The chemical mediators of these changes are not yet established, although alterations in CRF release or CRF receptors may be implicated to some extent in functional bowel diseases.IBS and other functional bowel symptoms are generally worsened by stress. In fact recent research has indicated that IBS symptoms tend to resolve in those without major psychosocial stressors. Conversely, symptoms are persistent in subjects with ongoing ï¿½threateningï¿½ psychosocial stressors. The onset of IBS and functional dyspepsia often begin with bereavement, abuse or other major negative life events. Emotional distress is very common in IBS patients, particularly those who seek medical treatment for the condition. Anxiety and depression are significantly increased in IBS patient populations, present in nearly 40%. Psychosocial distress appears much less common in IBS sufferers who do not seek medical care. Population based surveys, however, do still suggest tendencies toward emotional reactivity in people with IBS. Accordingly, stress modification, psychotherapy and hypnosis appear helpful for IBS and functional dyspeptic symptoms. Tricyclic antidepressants also appear effective for IBS and other functional bowel symptoms, even in low doses. Recent evidence indicates the drugs may work by reducing the brainï¿½s response to intestinal pain during stress. Sedatives such as the benzodiazepine Librium can reduce the effect of stress on the gut. During ball sorting challenge, Librium blunts the colonic motor response to mental stress in IBS patients. This effect may explain the benefits of combined sedative-anti-spasmodic drugs for IBS.SummaryThere is much yet to learn about the effects of stress on the gastrointestinal tract. The exact neural and hormonal pathways that mediate excess gut sensitivity and altered contractility during stress are not defined. Where these pathways are excessive or dysfunctional in IBS, functional dyspepsia and other GI disorders is unclear. Specific neurotransmitters are likely to underlie the gastrointestinal stress reaction, and may be amenable to pharmacologic blockade. Psychological therapies are likely to blunt the stress response as well. New tools such as brain imaging to study brain responses to stressors and drugs, and molecular biology to study function of neurotransmitters and their receptors are likely to lead to better understanding of the stress response and its role in disease states. Based on this knowledge, advances in pharmacology may lead to better drug therapies to address these important health problems. http://www.med.unc.edu/wrkunits/2depts/med...idc/welcome.htm


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: I am not sure if yeast is the problem, but it just stands to reason if the skin is over-grown due to yeast, that possibly the GI tract could be also. We all have it, just gets out of control in some and not others


Your "reasoning" is VERY logical. The body is under constant assault from a wide variety of bacteria, fungi, even parasites on our produce. The immune system of the skin, lungs, gut, sinuses have to prevent these organisms from taking over the body. In healthy people this can be accomplished, but we are all DIFFERENT. Some of us could have any number of things going on that makes it difficult to control either bacteria or fungi/yeast. After 2 courses of antibiotics several years ago my health went from bad to a freefall. I was very dizzy and fatigued all the time (actually many symptoms exploded as did allergies). I am convinced that there was some type of yeast overgrowth (along with a bacteria problem) going on. This is because there was massive improvement after a very aggressive program to treat the yeast. If I had to do it over again, i would NOT take the antifungals by themselves again. I would address bacteria along with any suspected fungal problems together.I have been wondering lately about all the people who suspect SIBO due to bloating, gas, .... I am wondering if the pancreas could be operating inefficiently. It seems that the enzymes are supposed to keep the bacteria/yeast under control but if the enzymes are in a reduced quantity then that could explain the problem.Many things could be happening. I found out that there are no easy answers but everyone is different. Certain foods cause a low blood sugar attack in me. I am convinced that Dr Philpot is correct when he says that this is a manifestation of a food intolerance (i.e., the pancreas is being affected somehow)There is also the issue of yeast hypersensitivity as noted by the Mayo Clinic a few years ago. They speculate that genetics can play a role ---- the same way that genetics can play a role in wheat/autoimmune conditions (celiac).It makes sense to me; i don't need to wait 75 years for everyone to get on board. I took action and I am MUCH better (except for these horrible food intolerances that continue to plague me).Be careful of Eric's yeast abstract, it is very out-of-date and proves nothing especially in light of the hypersensitivity issue. Also, the Mayo Clinic clearly stated that culturing fungi is VERY difficult to do. They are probably another 15 years away from discovering the same number (approx 40) of species of fungus in the guts of us sufferers. Wasn't it Xtian who had geotrichium yeast organisms cultured from his gut???? Yes, it does happen --- especially with the indiscriminate use of antibiotics and a junk food diet (sweets, cakes, cookies...)However, I am equally suspicious of bacteria as I am of fungi/yeast. I believe that meckle posted something that had papers that highlighted the bacteria/yeast problem occuring together.---- and I also believe that a lot of this may be due to a body that is operating out of whack, and these problems need to be figured out. I am taking pancreatic enzymes with all my meals --just in case-- i also take a lot of herbs that control the bad stuff like pau d'arco tea...


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

There is absoulutely no research candida has anything to do with IBS, zip none!!!!!!The reason why that abstract is old is because it was barking up the wrong tree. They are way ahead at this point from those days.Hypersensesivity Kel does not understand AT ALL!!!It is very likely that neurotransmitters play a role in hypersensensitivity and nerve fibers signals and they alreay know serotonin is one involved in pain!This condition is in how things work that is messed up!!!!History of Functional Disorders"PRESENT PATHOPHYSIOLOGICAL OBSERVATIONS Despite differences among the functional gastrointestinal disorders, in location and symptom features, common characteristics are shared with regard to:motor and sensory physiology, central nervous system relationships, approach to patient care. What follows are the general observations and guidelines. MotilityIn healthy subjects, stress can increase motility in the esophagus, stomach, small and large intestine and colon. Abnormal motility can generate a variety of GI symptoms including vomiting, diarrhea, constipation, acute abdominal pain, and fecal incontinence. Functional GI patients have even greater increased motility in response to stressors in comparison to normal subjects. While abnormal motility plays a vital role in understanding many of the functional GI disorders and their symptoms, it is not sufficient to explain reports of chronic or recurrent abdominal pain.Visceral HypersensitivityVisceral hypersensitivity helps to account for disorders associated with chronic or recurrent pain, which are not well correlated with changes in gastrointestinal motility, and in some cases, where motility disturbances do not exist. Patients suffering from visceral hypersensitivity have a lower pain threshold with balloon distension of the bowel or have increased sensitivity to even normal intestinal function. Additionally, there may be an increased or unusual area of somatic referral of visceral pain. Recently it has been concluded that visceral hypersensitivity may be induced in response to rectal or colonic distension in normal subjects, and to a greater degree, in persons with IBS. Therefore, it is possible that the pain of functional GI disorders may relate to sensitization resulting from chronic abnormal motor hyperactivity, GI infection, or trauma/injury to the viscera. Brain-Gut AxisThe concept of brain-gut interactions brings together observations relating to motility and visceral hypersensitivity and their modulation by psychosocial factors. By integrating intestinal and CNS central nervous system activity, the brain-gut axis explains the symptoms relating to functional GI disorders. In other words, senses such as vision and smell, as well as enteroceptive information (i.e. emotion and thought) have the capability to affect gastrointestinal sensation, motility, secretion, and inflammation. Conversely, viscerotopic effects reciprocally affect central pain perception, mood, and behavior. For example, spontaneously induced contractions of the colon in rats leads to activation of the locus coeruleus in the pons, an area closely connected to pain and emotional centers in the brain. Jointly, the increased arousal or anxiety is associated with a decrease in the frequency of MMC activity of the small bowel possibly mediated by stress hormones in the brain. Based on these observations, it is no longer rational to try to discriminate whether physiological or psychological factors produce pain or other bowel symptoms. Instead, the Functional GI disorders are understood in terms of dysregulation of brain-gut function, and the task is to determine to what degree each is remediable. Therefore, a treatment approach consistent with the concept of brain-gut dysfunction may focus on the neuropeptides and receptors that are present in both enteric and central nervous systems. " http://www.med.unc.edu/wrkunits/2depts/med...aldisorders.htm


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

eric,there are many causes of IBS. I prefer to think of our problems as ----"GI symptoms" instead of IBS.Pete describes the same phenomena as me.... he takes antibiotics and probiotics and he receives symptom reduction.My experience was that i took antifungal drugs and I improved (but i improved much more when I took very strong herbal antibiotics and garlic to control bacteria).Are you going to tell me that out of 5 billion people on the planet no one has fungal organisms in their gut that are causing cramps, bloat, gas????The same thing with bacteria. are you going to tell me that no one's intestines is home to some very strange and highly IRRITATING species of bacteria that cause "IBS" symtoms???In my opinion, i know that it is much more complicated than just bacteria or yeast. there could be active viruses involved and there is probably some type of poor/inferior immune system thing going on. there could be plenty of things happening.the serotonin issue is more of an intermediate player in this whole thing.however, i think you are dead on correct with dr sternberg's paper on the hypothalamus and how it gets dysregulated. --and once it gets dysregulated then it just adds to the causal loop.Eric,so tell me ---- just where does the TARTARIC ACID come from???Please don't avoid this question ----- where does it come from????


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

This is downright scary!!! This would explain very nicely why I kept getting a rebound problem after being off the antifungal drugs for around 2 or 3 months. My God!! if he is right then this stuff just keeps coming back. That must be why i normalized so much when i was on the drugs; however, the food intolerances were yo-yoing me all over.i am convinced that this ridiculous practice of NOT breastfeeding your baby (or for only a few weeks) is a strong contributor to a lot of our problems. same with the use of antibiotics. Modern medicine has really hosed this one up. http://www.greatplainslaboratory.com/yeast.html


> quote: I have now detected this same phenomenon in hundreds of other cases. Even after six months of antifungal treatment, there is often a biochemical "rebound" and loss of improvements after discontinuing antifungal therapy. This rebound also occurs after other antifungal drugs as well. Several explanations are possible for this phenomenon:Because of one or more defects in the immune system such as IgA deficiency, IgG deficiency, or severe combined immunodeficiency disease (SCID) which are found in most children with autism, the yeast, which are everywhere in our environment including the food we eat, repopulate the intestinal tract very rapidly. The yeast are very resistant and have not been completely eliminated even after six months of antifungal therapy *The yeast have genetically transformed some of the human cells that line the intestinal tract so that some of the human cells now contain yeast DNA. These genetically transformed human cells produce both yeast and human products and are somewhat sensitive to antifungal drugs but are not killed by them and produce yeast products whenever antifungal drugs are absent. * (Kel wonders...... i wonder if this could explain the theory of pleomorphism and mycrozyma??????) *Some of the yeast are hidden in recesses of the intestinal tract or in the deeper layers of the mucosa that lines the intestine * where they are relatively safe from the drug. Although their numbers are small, they readily repopulate the intestine after antifungals are stopped. In addition to the immune system taking inventory of its own cells, it seems increasingly likely that the immune system also takes an inventory of bacteria and yeast cells present in the intestinal tract soon after birth. This inventory is performed by a group of cells called the CD5+ B-cells, which are among the very first immunological cells to appear in the developing embryo and appear to play a role in tolerance to intestinal microorganisms in postnatal life. These cells may play a role in regulating the secretion of IgA, the antibody class that is secreted into the intestinal tract and which may select which microorganisms are tolerated in the intestinal tract. Furthermore, the eradication of normal flora especially when antibiotics are administered repetitively during infancy may cause the CD5+ cells to reject these normal organisms at a later age. Any cells that are on this early inventory may be awarded immune tolerance and will not be attacked later on by the immune system. *Either antibiotic use in infancy or yeast infection of the mother during pregnancy may result in later immune tolerance to yeast.*


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Kel, really I am with Kmottus and what she just recently said to you. You totally ignore IBS research and the huge amount of it there is on IBS in favor of your theories and extremely questionable websites and information you find.For me this is getting old and diverts from real IBS research and issues.You don't even understand some of the basics in IBS and some of this we have gone over a million times now.At this point some of this should be sticking with you and its not and you totally disregard major aspects of the condition, again just from your beleifs, beliefs are not hard research and science and replicated studies. That is what I am interested in personally.So I wish you the very best with your problems and health and I hope you can get to a point where you can enjoy life more and worry about it all less. But I cannot discuss IBS with you any longer."tartaric acidn. Any of four isomeric crystalline organic compounds, C4H6O6, used to make cream of tartar and baking powder, as a sequestrant, and in effervescent beverages and photographic chemicals. Source: The American Heritageï¿½ Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Editioncopyright ï¿½ 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. tartaric acid P tartaric acid: log in for this definition of tartaric acid and other entries in Merriam-Webster Medical Dictionary, available only to Dictionary.com Premium members.Source: Merriam-Webster Medical Dictionary, ï¿½ 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc. tartaric acidTartaric Tar*tar"ic, a. Chem. Of or pertaining to tartar; derived from, or resembling, tartar.Tartaric acid. a An acid widely diffused throughout the vegetable kingdom, as in grapes, mountain-ash berries, etc., and obtained from tartar as a white crystalline substance, C2H2OH2. CO2H2, having a strong pure acid taste. It is used in medicine, in dyeing, calico printing, photography, etc., and also as a substitute for lemon juice. Called also dextro-tartaric acid. b By extension, any one of the series of isomeric acids racemic acid, levotartaric acid, inactive tartaric acid of which tartaric acid proper is the type.Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, ï¿½ 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc. tartaric acidn : an acid found in many fruits; used in soft drinks and confectionery and baking powderSource: WordNet ï¿½ 1.6, ï¿½ 1997 Princeton University "tartaric acid Organic acid present in vegetable tissues and fruit juices in the form of salts of potassium, calcium, and magnesium. It is used in carbonated drinks and baking powders."


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

* Tartaric Acid Use: Molecular formula: C4H6O6 CAS No: 133-37-9 EINECS No: 205-105-7 ToxicologySkin, eye and respiratory irritant. * Properties of tartaric acidWhat is tartaric acid and what is known about this product? *A toxicology manual (3) indicates that tartaric acid is a highly toxic substance. * As little as 12 g has caused human fatality with death occurring from 12 hours to 9 days after ingestion. Gastrointestinal symptoms were marked (violent vomiting and diarrhea, abdominal pain, thirst) and followed by cardiovascular collapse and/or acute renal failure(3). A gram is approximately the weight of a cigarette. This compound especially damages the muscles and the kidney (4,5 *) and may even cause fatal human nephropathy (kidney damage) (6) * ***********************************************Surprisingly, the Food and Drug Administration lists tartaric acid in the Generally Recognized As Safe or GRAS category(9) which means this product can be freely used as an additive in processed foods. Unless a food additive is put on the GRAS list, the food company using the product may have to spend thousands or even millions of dollars to prove its safety. Therefore, the political pressure to get a product on this GRAS list is intense. Tartaric acid is a byproduct of the wine industry since a tremendous amount of tartaric acid sludge has to be removed from the wine after yeast fermentation of the grape juice. This sludge is the primary source of tartaric acid used as a food additive.Tartaric acid is an analog of the Krebs cycle compound malic acid (Figure 5). An analog is a chemical compound that closely resembles but is not identical to another chemical compound. The atoms that differ in the two molecules are shaded in gray. The reason an analog is important is that the analog may prevent the normal biochemical from completing its normal biochemical function.On a molecular level the same kind of thing happens. Probably in some of the cases the analog or false copy of the molecule breaks off and is stuck in the biological keyhole which may be the critical part of an enzyme or cell receptor. These analogs then prevent the biochemical functioning from occurring. ****************************************eric, supression of information is not the proper response. If you want to furnish some evidence then I am sure that everyone would like to read it.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Your "reasoning" is VERY logical.


I would think logically that reasoning that is logical certainly qualifies as reasoning without quotes or is that illogical?


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

I am on the side of kmottus and eric and what flux says in his signature. *I wouldn't believe in anything kel says because she tries 101 things at the same time and claims they all worked. She is very unscientific.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

CME Diagnosis, Pathophysiology, and Treatment of Irritable Bowel SyndromeRead this comprehensive update for primary care physicians on irritable bowel syndrome, by Kevin W. Olden, MD."IntroductionDefinitionIrritable bowel syndrome IBS, in its essence, can be defined as a combination of abdominal pain or discomfort and altered bowel habit. The alteration in bowel habit can take the form of altered stool frequency ie, diarrhea or constipation or altered stool form in terms of thin, overly hard and firm, or soft and even liquid stools. Symptoms that are commonly associated with IBS include passage of clear or white mucus with a bowel movement, sensation of incomplete evacuation after having a bowel movement, and relief of abdominal pain or discomfort transiently after defecation and abdominal bloating. Patients with IBS have traditionally been described as being "constipation predominant," "diarrhea predominant," or as having an alternating pattern of constipation and diarrhea ie, so-called "alternators". Although the research on the exact epidemiology of these 3 variants of IBS is incomplete, our best understanding is that each type is represented approximately equally in the overall IBS population. Abdominal pain or discomfort is a sine qua non for the diagnosis of IBS. The pain or discomfort most commonly occurs in the left lower quadrant, but can be found anywhere in the abdomen; however, isolated pain or discomfort above the level of the umbilicus is uncommon in patients with pure IBS. This combination of altered bowel habits with abdominal pain or discomfort separates IBS from other functional bowel disorders, such as functional dyspepsia, functional constipation, functional diarrhea, or functional abdominal bloating, to name a few.In addition to gastrointestinal symptoms, IBS has been associated with a number of extraintestinal conditions, such as fibromyalgia, sexual dysfunction, urinary symptoms, and certain psychiatric disorders in excess of non-IBS controls. These latter findings have implications both for further supporting the diagnosis of IBS, as well as for helping to define the level of disability of the patient who presents with IBS with extraintestinal manifestations.""Pathophysiology of IBSThe pathophysiology of IBS is a work in progress. Roughly 200 years after its initial description by the English physician William Powell, our understanding of what causes IBS symptoms remains incompletely understood. For most of the second half of the 20th century, tremendous attention was paid to the concept of altered gut motility as a cause of IBS symptoms.20 However, several difficulties are apparent in this approach. First, although altered motility of the colon and small bowel can be demonstrated in patients with IBS, there is a very poor correlation between IBS symptomatology and the presence of alterations in gastrointestinal motility. 21 Likewise, drugs that alter gastrointestinal motility alone, such as antispasmodic 22,23 and prokinetic drugs like metoclopramide and cisapride, 24,25 have not been shown to be of any significant benefit in relieving IBS symptoms.The third dilemma facing investigators in this area is that no pathognomonic pattern of gut dysmotility can be identified specifically with IBS, as opposed to other functional or organic disorders of the gut. 20 Altered motility, as occurs in IBS, is currently seen as one of many epiphenomena associated with the disorder, as opposed to being a cause of the disorder itself.In the early 1980s, it was discovered that upon balloon distention in the rectum, individuals suffering from IBS were more sensitive to distention than were individuals who did not suffer from IBS. 26 This means that IBS patients feel discomfort at lower levels of balloon inflation in the rectum and lower bowel than do normal controls. This finding has been replicated in numerous studies, and the concept of "visceral" hypersensitivity has been established. 27 A second level of investigation in this area is the fascinating finding that individuals with IBS not only have a unique local response in the rectum to visceral stimulation, but they also tend to process signals in the brain differently from non-IBS controls. Mertz and others 27 have shown that IBS patients have differential responses in the anterior cingulate cortex and other areas of the brain when stimulated with rectal or sigmoid colon distention, compared with controls. These findings have been replicated by other investigators. 28 These data certainly suggest the possibility of a "brain-gut axis" where peripheral symptoms are processed in the end organ ie, the colon, and then neural signals are carried via visceral afferents to the spinal cord, and then to the brain, where they are subject to additional processing.29 It is this brain-gut axis that has received considerable attention recently in IBS research. The findings of enhanced visceral sensitivity in the colon and rectum, as well as altered processing of signals in the brain, have provided new insight. Regarding the pathophysiology of IBS, the altered processing of neural sensation in IBS patients logically raises the question as to which neurotransmitters play a role in this abnormal signal transmission.A large number of neuropeptides are involved in the regulation of both gastrointestinal motility and sensation in the gut. These include motolin, gastrin, peptide Y, cholecystokinin, serotonin, and others.Serotonin has received the most interest for a number of reasons. The first reason is the dramatic impact that modulation of serotonin has had on psychiatric disorders. The development of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor SSRI medications in the late 1980s revolutionized the practice of psychiatry. The ability to treat depression with far fewer side effects than seen with earlier drugs made depression treatment more acceptable both to patients and physicians. The success of these medications led to increased interest in the role of serotonin in the nervous system. The second reason is that almost all ie, more than 90% of the serotonin contained in the body is found in the gut and not in the central nervous system.29 This fact raises the reasonable question of whether modulation of serotonin action in the gut could influence IBS and other functional bowel symptoms.Serotonin 5-HT is an interesting molecule. There are at least 15 subtypes of the 5-HT molecule. 5-HT1 and 5-HT2 are contained almost exclusively in the central nervous system. These are the target neurotransmitters for the SSRIs. The subtypes of serotonin contained in the gut consist mainly of 5-HT3 and 5-HT4, which has led to the development of drugs designed specifically to act on these serotonin subtypes see detailed discussion in the Management section below. Identifying the role of serotonin in the pathophysiology of IBS symptomatology has led to the investigation of other neurotransmitters. Cholecystokinin antagonist and various neurokinin antagonists are all actively being investigated for their potential to influence IBS symptomatology. 30 This has led to a whole new era of gastrointestinal pharmacology based on a brain-gut axis. The opportunity to develop interventions at the level of the bowel, spinal cord, and brain based on this pathophysiologic conceptual model is considerable.""Diet and Lifestyle ModificationIBS is not caused by stress. Likewise it is not caused by any particular dietary indiscretion. However, stress can clearly influence outcomes and severity of IBS, as it can in many other diseases. 31 Identifying stressors in a patient's life and urging the patient to develop coping strategies can be key in helping improve overall symptomatology and sense of well being. The patient who is working 60 hours per week in a job that he or she truly does not enjoy needs to have the courage to look at the situation and consider it as part of the overall clinical "problem." Likewise, pressure points in one's family relations, economic situation, or other psychosocial variables need to be evaluated as part of the overall treatment of IBS. Most patients can accomplish this simply by recognizing these stressors and promoting positive life changes. Some patients may benefit from counseling or psychotherapy to help them work through this process.32 Likewise, patients who have significant severe psychosocial issues, such as a history of being physically or sexually abused, or patients with diagnosable psychiatric disorders accompanying their IBS, such as depression or severe anxiety disorders like panic disorder may benefit from psychotherapy. 33 The literature supporting the efficacy of behavioral approaches in this setting is quite positive. 34 Cognitive behavioral therapy, hypnosis, and relaxation therapy have all been effectively applied to the treatment of IBS, particularly in patients with severe symptomatology. 35,36,37The issue of diet is more convoluted. Recent studies suggest that although individual patients may have "food triggers," there is no definitive evidence that suggests that food allergies or food intolerance to large food groups, such as meats or grains, are associated with either the development or the exacerbation of IBS symptoms. Patients should be encouraged to eat a healthy diet and to avoid only foods that they know specifically can trigger symptoms. Extensive testing, such as radioallergosorbent RAST or immunoglobulin E IgE or IgA testing, for gut-based food allergies is usually nonproductive in IBS patients." http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/463481_4 There is a lot more to this article and a great section on diagnoses.


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

Here - read this stuff folks if you want some evidence:ReferencesShaw W, Kassen E, and Chaves E. "Increased excretion of analogs of Krebs cycle metabolites and arabinose in two brothers with autistic features." Clin Chem 41:1094-1104, 1995. Shaw, W., Chaves, E., and Luxem, M. "Abnormal urine organic acids associated with fungal metabolism in urine samples of children with autism: preliminary results of a clinical trial with antifungal drugs. " Published in The Proceedings of the Autism Society of American National Conference on Autism. Greensboro, NC, July 1995. Shaw, W. "Organic acid testing: abnormal metabolites in the urine of children may assist in the diagnosis of, and therapies for, autism." Presented at the Autism Society of America National Conference on Autism, Las Vegas, NV, July 1994. Shaw, W and Chaves, E. "Experience with organic acid testing to evaluate abnormal microbial metabolites in the urine of children with autism." Published in The Proceedings of the Autism Society of American National Conference on Autism. Milwaukee,WI,1996. Kontstantareas M and Homatidis S "Ear infections in autistic and normal children." J Autism and Dev Dis 17:585,1987. Kennedy M and Volz P "Dissemination of yeasts after gastrointestinal inoculation in antibiotic-treated mice." Sabouradia 21:27-33, 1983. Danna P, Urban C, Bellin E, and Rahal J. "Role of Candida in pathogenesis of antibiotic associated diarrhea in elderly patients." Lancet 337: 511-14, 1991. Ostfeld E , Rubinstein E, Gazit E, Smetana Z. "Effect of systemic antibiotics on the microbial flora of the external ear canal in hospitalized children." Pediat 60: 364-66, 1977. Kinsman O S, Pitblado K." Candida albicans gastrointestinal colonization and invasion in the mouse: effect of antibacterial dosing, antifungal therapy, and immunosuppression." Mycoses 32:664-74, 1989. Van der Waaij D. "Colonization resistance of the digestive tractï¿½mechanism and clinical consequences." Nahrung 31:507-17, 1987. Samonis G and Dassiou M. "Antibiotics affecting gastrointestinal colonization of mice by yeasts." Chemotherapy 6: 50-2, 1994. Samonis G, Gikas A, and Toloudis P. "Prospective evaluation of the impact of broad-spectrum antibiotics on the yeast flora of the human gut."European Journal of Clinical Microbiology & Infectious Diseases 13:665-7, 1994. Samonis G, Gikas A, and Anaissie E. "Prospective evaluation of the impact of broad-spectrum antibiotics on gastrointestinal yeast colonization of humans." Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy 37: 51-53, 1993. Gorbach S et al. "Successful treatment of relapsing Clostridium difficile colitis with Lactobacillus GG." Lancet 1987 ii: 1519,1987. Van der Waaij D. "Colonization resistance of the digestive tract--mechanism and clinical consequences." Nahrung 31:507-17, 1987. Berg R. "Promotion of enteric bacteria from the gastrointestinal tracts of mice by oral treatment with penicillin clindamycin, or metranidazole." Infection and Immunity 33:854-61, 1981. Finegold S. "Anaerobic infections and Clostridium difficile colitis emerging during antibacterial therapy." Scand J Infect Dis Suppl 49: 160-4, 1986. Bartlett J." Antibiotic-associated diarrhea." Clin Infect Dis 15:573-81, 1992. Sumiki Y. "Fermentation products of mold fungi.IV. Aspergillus glaucus.I." J Agr Chem Soc Jap 5 : 10, 1929. Sumuki Y. "Fermentation products of molds." J Agr Chem Soc Jap 7:819, 1931. Kawarda A, Takahoshi N., Seta Y, Takai M, and Tamura S. "Biochemical studies on bakanae fungus." Bull Agr Soc Jap 19:84, 1955 Mrochek J and Rainey W. "Identification and biochemical significance of substituted furans in human urine." Clin Chem 18: 821-828, 1972. Pettersen J and Jellum E. "The identification and metabolic origin of 2-furoylglycine and 2,5-furandicarboxylic acid in human urine." Clin Chem Acta 41:199-207, 1972. Hanneman K, Puchta V, Simon E., Ziegler H., Ziegler G, and Spiteller G. "The common occurrence of furan fatty acids in plants." Lipids 24:296-8, 1989 Henderson S and Lindup E. "Renal organic acid transport: uptake by rat kidney slices of a furan dicarboxylic acid which inhibits plasma protein binding of acidic ligands in uremia." J Pharmacol and Exp Ther 263:54-60, 1992. Gupta S, Aggarawal, and Heads C. (1995). "Dysregulated immune system in children with autism. Beneficial effects of intravenous immune globulin on autistic characteristics." J. Autism Develop Dis 26: 439-52, 1996. Warren R P, Foster A, Margaretten N C. "Immune abnormalities in patients with autism." J. Autism Develop Dis 16, 189-197, 1986. Warren R P, Yonk J, Burger R A, Odell D, and Warren W L. " Dr. positive T cells in autism: association with decreased plasma levels of the complement C4B protein. "Neurophyschobiology 39:53-57, 1995. Stubbs E G, Crawford M L, Burger D R, and Vanderbark A A. "Depressed lymphocyte responsiveness in autistic children." J Autism Child Schizophr 7:49-55 1977. Singh V K, Frudenberg H H, Emerson D, Coleman M. "mmunodiagnosis and immunotherapy in autistic children." Ann NY Acad Sci 540: 602-604, 1998. Shah D and Larsen B. "Identity of a Candida albicans toxin and its production in vaginal secretions." Med Sci Res 20:353-355, 1992. Shah D and Larsen B. "Clinical isolates of yeast produce a glitotoxin-like substance." Mycopathologia 116:203-208, 1991. Fischer A, Ballet J, and Griscelli C. "Specific inhibition of in vitro Candida-induced lymphocyte proliferation by polysaccharide antigens present in the serum of patients with chronic mucocutaneous candidiasis." J Clin Invest 62: 1005-1013, 1978. Iwata K and Ichita K. "Cellular immunity in experimental fungal infections in mice." Mykosen Supplement 1;72-81, 1978 Roboz J and Katz R. "Diagnosis of disseminated candidiasis based on serum D/L arabinitol ratios using negative chemical ionization mass spectrometry." J Chromatog 575: 281-286, 1992 Wong B, Brauer K., Clemens J., and Beggs S. "Effects of gastrointestinal candidiasis, antibiotics, dietary arabinitol, and cortisone acetate on levels of the Candida metabolite D-arabinitol in rat serum and urine." Infect Immunol 58:283-288, 1990. Larrson, Lennart. "Determination of microbial chemical markers by gas chromatography-mass spectrometry-potential for diagnosis and studies on metabolism in situ". APMIS 102: 161-169, 1994. Gitzelman R., Steinmann B, and Van der Berghe G. "Disorders of fructose metabolism." In: The Metabolic Basis of Inherited Disease. pgs 399-424, 1989. 6th edition. Edited by C Scriver. McGraw Hill, NY, NY. Varma R and Hoshino A." Serum glycoproteins in schizophrenia." Carbohydrate Research 82: 343-351, 1980. Varma R, Michos G, Gordon B, Varma R S, and Shirey R." Serum glycoprotiens in children with schizophrenia and conduct and adjustment disorders." Biochem Med 30: 206-214, 1983. Horowitz B, Edelstein S, and Lipman L. " Sugar chromatography studies in recurrent vulvovaginitis." J Reproductive Medicine 29:441-443, 1984. Roberts J, Burchinal M, and Campbell F. "Otitis media in early childhood and patterns of intellectual development and later academic performance." J Ped Psychol 19:347-367, 1994. Hagerman R and Falkstein A. "An association between recurrent otitis media in infancy and later hyperactivity." Clin Pediat 26:253-257, 1987. Teele D, Klein J, Rosner B, and The Greater Boston Study Group. "Otitis media with effusion during the first years of life and development of speech and language." Pediatrics 74:282-287, 1984. Silva P, Chalmers D, and Stewart I. "Some audiological, psychological, educational, and behavioral characteristics of children with bilateral ottitis media with effusion: a longitudinal study."J Learning Disabilities 19:165-169, 1986 Sak R and Ruben R. "Effects of recurrent middle ear effusion in preschool years on language and learning." Developmental and Behavioral Pediatrics 3: 7-11, 1982 Vojdani A, Rahimian P, Kalhor H, and Mordechai E."Immunological cross reactivity between candida albicans and human tissue." J Clin Lab Immunol 48: 1-15, 1996 "Yeast-related mental disturbances, Psychiatric symptoms elicited through biological mechanisms." An interview with Richard G. Jaeckle MD Mastering Food Allergies 10: 1-4, 1995.


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

bumpevidence people evidence


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

In light of the recent findings at the Mayo Clinic concerning the extreme difficulty in culturing the fungus and the hypersensitivity to it. Plus, the recognition that the Medical Doctors were treating sinusitis ALL WRONG by using antibiotics. Then it does not take a genius to understand that many of us could have the same fungal species in the gut where there is a rich supply of food.I believe that when a highly esteemed doctor like dr shaw finds the metabolites of yeast (such as tartaric acid) at levels 600 times higher in some of his patients urine --- then it tells me that someone should be paying more attention to this issue.--and once again it seems as though the bacteria/yeast is not necessarily the root cause--rather- it appears that there is some type of immune system problem present. _Because of one or more defects in the immune system such as IgA deficiency, IgG deficiency, or severe combined immunodeficiency disease (SCID) --In addition to the immune system taking inventory of its own cells, it seems increasingly likely that the immune system also takes an inventory of bacteria and yeast cells present in the intestinal tract soon after birth. This inventory is performed by a group of cells called the CD5+ B-cells, which are among the very first immunological cells to appear in the developing embryo and appear to play a role in tolerance to intestinal microorganisms in postnatal life. These cells may play a role in regulating the secretion of IgA, the antibody class that is secreted into the intestinal tract and which may select which microorganisms are tolerated in the intestinal tract. Furthermore, the eradication of normal flora especially when antibiotics are administered repetitively during infancy may cause the CD5+ cells to reject these normal organisms at a later age. Any cells that are on this early inventory may be awarded immune tolerance and will not be attacked later on by the immune system. Either antibiotic use in infancy or yeast infection of the mother during pregnancy may result in later immune tolerance to yeast. _ *************************************************this reminds me of the time a friend gave me this fulvic acid (an organic acid just like tartaric acid) and this stuff caused some of the WORST cramping and IBS pain that i felt in years. if a small amount of highly irritating fulvic acid can cause IBS pain then i imagine that a number of other organic acids can do the same. the product was called ---- Healix --- and I do not recomend it.......ORGANIC ACIDS -----------POTENTIALLY -BAD STUFF! (tartaric acid: if someone offers it ---- Just Say --NO!).....


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:ead this stuff folks if you want some evidence:


Evidence for what? That you can fill a page with irrelevant and often meaningless material?


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Meckle, find a current one with IBS in the title?Not one of these has anything to do with studying IBS? Not to mention the ;last date one you posted is 96!!!!We know people with sverely compromised immune systems, such as AID and Cancer Patients or people on long term anti biotics, can have this is the colon, which can be seen on colonoscopy.Have you ever talked to a person who does those about it?Neither of you are talking about IBS, or this and any new IBS research or current studies, your just rambling on. For one its not possible even if you did have it, to cause some of the things KNOWN through nerve pathways in IBS.All you two do really with this is give another reason for people to worry more.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

simply unbelievable that some people can not make SIMPLE inferences. certain byproducts of bacteria and fungal organisms can cause severe chaos all over the body.get a hold of some fulvic acid and take a little -- you will reexperience what severe pain feels like.don't you read anything before criticizing it? researchers are CLEARLY tying toxins to all kinds of nerve, brain, and nervous system problems.as doctor shaw (former center for disease control) states --"it all depends on what type of toxins are being produced and how susceptible the patient is."if you study his research you will see that the use of antifungal drugs severely reduced tartaric acid in the urine of his patients. the problem is that when the drug is withdrawn the levels of tartaric acid rise. therefore there are additional problems that need to be worked out. (tartaric acid is a byproduct of yeast ----not bacteria)------------- 2 + 2 = 4 ----------------It is simple


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: Meckle, find a current one with IBS in the title?


eric, it took them decades to discover that h pylori was responsible for stomach ulcers.it took them decades for them to discover fungal organisms in the sinuses (therefore -- for years the Mr magoo's were screwing people up with antibiotics by mistake. (one of the doctors that you frequently quote played a role in okaying this practice -- blind trust is dangerous)it is going to take them decades longer for them to understand how intestinal dysbiosis is causing or complicating the problems of a subset of IBS sufferers.this is why doctors like Pimental are able to obtain temporary results in so many patients --- it is due to microorganisms.------------------------ 2 + 2 = 4


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## bodycreator (May 22, 2003)

No offence but...Shhhhhhhhhh.You guys need to take up sword-fighting or another less violent sport. I think you guys are forgetting the part about trying to be less stressed out in regards to your conditions.I think I can feel my symptoms coming back, Not to mention a headache from all the reading. Can't we all just get along?(All this is sid with my tongue rammed firmly in my cheek of course!)DING! Round two!


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:his is why doctors like Pimental are able to obtain temporary results in so many patients --- it is due to microorganisms.


Maybe you need a







but Pimental results are unreplicated and could be entirely wrong or there may be other explanations.


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

Quite frankly Eric.Why should I bother finding a more recent one scientific reference? To be honest - unlike the rest of you I haven't got the time nor inclination to go reading reams of data whilst understanding none of it. Nothing is good enough for you flux.Secondly - just because something was published in '96 does not mean it isn't valid anymore. Jesus - you get one piece of evidence - the journal is too obscure, you get another - it's too old. You use the same self-delusional tactics that you accuse me an Kel off. We have given you some evidence - no-one said it was definitve - no-one is denying that your own beliefs are relevant.Thirdly - You are the dangerous one. Pletny of people on this board are interested in the candida idea. Pletny of people have found it a useful or completely successful treament (including me - man I just had the best sh1t - did you know people can actually be a GOOD experience). You and flux are in fact the dangerous ones trying to bury a subject that needs to aired just as much as your own theories.Fourth - I have spoken to Doctors about this subject. In fact my flat mate is a doctor - he has had a candida problem himself accepts that it causes stomach problems. Many doctors do - many doctors treat it -Dr McKenna, Dr Shaw etc. Fifth - I have just done a year in MED SCHOOL (and had an exemption for a year also). I have studied the anatomy, physiology. I have dissected ****ing intestines, stomachs etc etc. I don'T know enough yet to have a definitive opinion - whichis whay I don't give one - even with the yeast theories I don't give one. But the point of it is - I am learning the medical knowledge - I am open to all sides of the argument - I have no definite opinions. I post as a patient here not as a med student - this is why I don't tout my studies.Sixth - I am a science graduate. I worked in R & D for several years. I used to make computer chips - you don't get any more scientifc than that. I know what science is about and how it works. From your post eric and flux it is clear you do not. When I am sceptical of science, it is because I know what goes on behind the scences., and that in the end science comes down to money, vested interests and personal belief (there is NO CONCLUSIVE PROOF of any theory - there is ALWAYS a leap of faith)Seventh - in any case MEDICINE is not SCIENCE. It is a craft or an art. In my med school studies - we do not study the WHY of it all - we just learn facts after facts after facts - there is not logic to it. Science is not the facts it is the process by which they are obtained - doctors in general do not obtain facts they apply them (with exceptions) A medical degree does not include scientific methodology. When I complete my studies I will not get a science degree and will get an ARTS degree (and I go t a VERY reputable school).Eight - I am NOT Kel. I do not agree with everything she says. Some people seem to confuse that. Don't but words in my mouth or beliefs in my head.Ninth - I post only on the candida topic. THis is because I wish to balance the extremely irrational attidue to it of Eric, Flux etc. It is not the limit or depth of my knowledge and interest - I simply don't have time to post on everthing else. the candida Posit is just as valid as your own viewpoint eric (and I know a bit more about the HPA axis than you might think). Personally I fuond the candida approach worked for me - many doctors use this approach - SUCCESSFULLY - it IS valid. You may not have seen conclusive proof - and it may be a flawed theory - but it has SOME MERIT.Now - if you and flux cannot have even the slightest bit of open-mindedness, then please shut up. Honestly - you people just say the same thing over and over. Flux - please stop disrespecting everybody and harassessing each new poor innocent who wants to learn about yeast. Eric - please stop posting the same really long links over and over - once is enough. Kel also - brevity is virtue !!


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Wondering if a suggestion of moving all the Candida threads over to the OTC, supplements and Alternative Medicine part of the board might be a way to ease the tensions???Rather than having it over on the main board where it gets caught up in my science is better than your science arguements.Just a suggestion...what do ya'll think.Personally I feel it would help ease some of the tensions on the main board, and give the ALT med is the bestest people a place to discuss things AND let the main part of the board end up being a more "what the general scientific consensus" thing is (or maybe pull the alt med out of the OTC and supplements and BAN anyone who DARES to look things up in Medline (like me and Eric and Flux from making any comment there...even though there are SOME aspects of SOME alternative approaches I find useful...just not most of them).I'll bring this up to Jeff and see what he thinks...It might make this whole place a bit more user-friendly and scare off fewer newbies.K.


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## Jenkins (Feb 15, 2002)

Funny with all the info on IBS studies odd how they can't cure a single person of "IBS". Most doctors do not check for yeast overgrowth or parasites. I know my doctor gets a funny look on his face if I even mention it and if he is like most doctors (which he is) then who knows how mant people have these problems. I have been sick (every day people, I never feel good- ever) for three years now. My doc has succeeded in telling me I have generalized anxiety disorder and IBS C. Yeah not a single test done except a CBC and thyroid panel (all normal). Here's some antidepressants, I know they make you sick he says but please try one MORE brand, and some xanax, oh and some zelnorm. What about my fatigue, dizziness, nausea?? Blank stare.... Did anyone one here ever think that IBS is caused by something?? Perhaps something different in each person but something is causing this, the seratonin levels in the gut are screwed up, what is screwing them up??? The doctors know diddly about IBS, we have companies making drugs to helps the symptoms but nothing to actually heal what is wrong. I think everyone who poo poos candidas as a possible problem should be a little more open minded. Afterall if the medical establishment is groping around in the dark how do you know anything for sure yourself?? Just because it may not be your problem doesn't mean it isn't someone elses problem. I am sick and tired of feeling like **** everyday of my life (I am 33 years old and live like I am 90) The medical profession has let me down for three straight years, so I hope you don't mind if all your articles and #### you post on here mean nothing to me. Jenkins/Kellie


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

For one who was pretty much cured (there has to be an exception the proves the rule, huh? It is good enough now that when I do not take any medications I no longer meat the diagnositic criteria and while it isn't 100% normal, it is not enough to be that bothersome...Am I cured enough????)by one of the studies posted here that I participated in (why I got involved on-line in the first place...I had good results and wanted to share with others that there CAN be things that work for some people)...I'm sorry the medical profession has been such a let down to you.Really...if you wanna go for the Candida approach GO TO A NATUROPATHIC doctor or other ALT MED professional or any M.D. who uses the word HOLISITIC in their title. They will be MORE than happy to take you seriously and work with you...REALLY they will.I know some...now one of them would probably diagnose everyone with Candida (got really weirded out that I didn't have the skin thing that All people with IBS should have as a sign we all have Candida....but that is another story).So I'm taking it you would LIKE to have a part of the board dedicated solely to the less than "what science says" approach.So one vote yes from the masses







K.


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

Kmottus,whilst I agree less agro is a good aim.I don't think your suggestion of splitting the topics is a good one. Apart from the point that it rates ones thing as better than the other when there is no concensus - if you put it on another board people won't find it.Personally I rareley use the other discussion boards - it is hard enought to try and keep up with this one. Newbies don't know where to go so come here.Also - I don't think it's good that alt people stay alt and contemporary people stay contemporary - that's dangerous on both sides. There needs to be discussion between the too.There's just needs to be less aggression all round(including me an Kel) and more openmindedness (flux and eric).Meckle


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

Kmottus,It isn't a case of either or.It is a case of us all being grown-ups. Letting all the information be there and letting people make up there own minds. Flux, Eric - you are not the keepers of all things scietific.Kel - medicine isn't all bad.For my part - I am studying the thing - obviously I think there is merit to it.Kmottus - as allopathic worked for you - alternative worked for me. You seem to think it's a case of one or the other. It isn't it's about options. And us all having respect for each other's opinions and experience.I also came on to share a positive experience - next thing I was verbally assaulted for talking about candida. This intolerance is why mewbies are scared off. It's the same on both sides. People on both sides need to be flexible and open. Everyone listening ?????


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## Jenkins (Feb 15, 2002)

Yes I truly believe that IBS is different for each sufferer. I don't think the same thing causes all cases of IBS. I think that every approach short of tying a string around your finger and hoping for the best is plausible and should never be poo pooed by the masses as they may be poo pooing something that could work for some people. I suffered mild constipation all of mylife in hindsight better diet higher water intake would have cleared it up. I went to Texas in 2000 for Thanksgiving at my Boyfriends mothers house. I got what I call a weird cold while there, started with a wicked sore throat and made me feel all crappy but it plugged my ears up something fierce. Let me also mention this womans house was FAR from what I would consider clean. The water came out of the pipes discolored and everything else was just gross. I was very stressed the entire trip as you can imagine my being grossed out to all heavens and back, I get back to Florida and have been sick ever since. My doctor thinks I am crazy. He thinks I am just a very anxious person. When I tell him yes, my mother called me fidget when I was little, but never to the extreme that I can no longer go to Wal Mart or even the grocery store without feeling faint and having hot flashes, he just says I am predisposed --when this all started suddenly. I just wish a doctor would take me seriously as I have no health insurance it is hard to get every imaginable test done, but it doesn't seem to matter my doctor said he would order the test insurance no insurance if he felt it was necessary. SOMETHING is necessary when you feel like I do every day of my life. It sucks and I am tired beleive it or not constipation is the least of my concerns anymore, it's the nervousness and all over bad feeling. I truly feel like I have been poisoned the night before everyday. Little bit rambly but no option should be discouraged, because if I have learned anyhting from science it's that anything seems possible.Jenkins/Kellie


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

Err - what skin thing ?


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## Jenkins (Feb 15, 2002)

Thanks Meckle--I am grumpy today!! You can email me at jenkins22270###yahoo.com and tell me more about what cured you if you like.







Kellie


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

I am with you Kmottus on this and think that is a excellent idea.Meckle, wow?You can't post new abstarcts on IBS and candida because there are none, it would be nice to see some kind of data on it and no one ever shows that in regards to IBS, they just say it can happen. Or they post completely unrelated data to IBS. There are tons of bugs why does candida stand out? There are even different strains of candida?You spent the time to post all the references, why not IBS references. Of course some doctors promote it, usally ones with treatments and things to sell the public.Are those doctors major IBS researchers? Where are the papers, where is the research findings on IBS?I posted all those long up to date absracts on state of the art research on IBS in an attempt to clarify IBS better. There are also new people who perhaps have not seen all that information.As of yet, there is no bacterial or virual pathogen found in IBS period!!!!When they do find it it will be big news if that is even the problem.The thing is here also, your not looking at the problems they are finding. Your "GUESSING" its candida!Also, because some of the public may believe in it also doesn't make it right or the cause. Lets see it doesn't show up in millions of IBS colonoscopies, it doesn't show up in stool samples of IBS patients, or the general population, they have not nailed it under a microscope as the problem, it can't cause some of the problems in IBS, IBS overlapps with other functional gi syndromes, it doesn't show up in blood work as a high white cell count fighting infection. Most people with IBS improve on treatments totally unrelated to fighting candida. They have excellent data on how some people get IBS. The history of IBS research over the years is extensive and yet no candida. The list goes on.Where does it show up?Where are the "scientifically rigorous clinical studies" on it and IBS?The "Organification" of Functional GI Disorders:Implications for Research http://www.med.unc.edu/medicine/fgidc/organification.htm IBS at this time is a functional disorder and recently reclassified as Disorders of function.Overview of Functional GI Disorders http://www.med.unc.edu/medicine/fgidc/bkgrnd.htm


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

O I see above the skin thing.I had a skin thing that used to come up in hot weather. Basically it was an extremely ithcy rash in my groin region. It was consistent with a yeast infection and always started in the anal region.I went to 2 GP's and a dermatologist. They took a lot of my money, sold me a lot of cream - but had no clue what it was. When I treated my intestinal candida problem this skin thing did not come back.I don't think skin problems are necessarily a part of candida infections - but I certainly believe it's possible, and given my medical history probable. I can't speak for anyone else.


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

Eric,All Doctors sell something. They are ALL trying to make money. Good God - wise up.What about your vested interests ? Isn't it ture you sell hypnotherapy tapes to treat IBS ? And also - you promote this approach which you make money from. In all truth - YOU yourself cannot claim to have an unbiased opinion here - as your financial status is tied in to the very discussion.There has been evidence posted here. There was even evidence in this post - yet you ALWAYS find something wrong with it. You have CHOSEN not to accept it. Your choice - don't force it on everyone else. Quite simply - I DON'T HAVE TIME to research all this properly (at the moment).You need to think abuot your own objectivity.


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

By the way Eric, Kmottus.I do respect your opinions. I don't mnean anything personal.Flux - not quite sure what your opinion is to be honest, but again I really don'T mean anything personal.


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## DavidLA (Nov 28, 2000)

Kel & Meckle-I really have to give you credit for trying to provide some evidence on how over-growths of bacteria/candida/parasites can cause digestive problems. Some people just don't seem to understand that "IBS" is just a catch-all diagnosis..something just to write on a patients chart. Since there's never going to be anything published in JAMA or other Medical Journal/Newsletters. Most of the proof has to come from patients/Alternative Drs. simply saying that their feeling much better & not having any more symtoms. This is the bottom line!!.Feeling much better--Not having anymore symtoms. Of course the doubting Dan's will say it must be a "placebo effect". For those people out there that are tired of going to Conventional Drs.,still suffering, and not getting any better. I say TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for your own HEALTH. Do your own research,start reading more,experimenting more with supplements & draw your own conclusions. And when your Health returns--Try to post at least 5 messages somewhere sharing your Success!!or Better yet..Write a BOOK!!


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Meckle, I get paid to build websites, I do not sell the tapes persoanlly.They have helped hundreds here as well as myself bar no other treatment I have tried in thrity years of IBS.Also why in the studies is hypnotherapy so effective for IBS? hell one of the most effective treatments to date for IBS.Why do people get better long term on HT, five years after treantment??????I think there is a difference between selling things and IBS researchers, yes they get paid and I know all about drug companies and the whole nine yards.But,How does candida cause the sensation of incomplete evacuation?How does it cause rectal sensitivity?How does it effect the ACC in IBS patients brain?How does it effect rem sleep?How does it cause c and d and alternate for people.How does it increase cell counts in the gut in IBSers?Why would hormones effect it, or the weather, or foods or stress?Why do more women seem to have it?Why does it overlapp a lot with fibro and CFIS?Why is there mild moderate and severe IBS?Why can they reproduce IBS in animal models?Why do they see problems in the way the brain receivs signals from the gut in IBS patients.Why does rectal barostat ballon studies show these brain differences? How would candida do that???? Why when using the right criteria to diagnose IBS, is there less the 2 percent of the people later found to have organic diseases?They don't diagnose IBS anymore based on exclusion.Were just asking for some hard data?Why is the last study on IBS and candida from 1993 in the national library of medicine?Actually from 1996Fortschr Med. 1996 Sep 20;114 26:319-21. Pathogenicity of fungi in the intestines--current status of the discussionArticle in GermanScheurlen M.Medizinische Poliklinik, Universitat, Wurzburg.The hypothesis that colonization of the intestinal tract by yeasts e.g. Candida albicans can lead to disease in immunocompromised individuals is currently being discussed controversially. Proponents assume that toxins produced by the fungi can trigger such complaints as irritable bowel syndrome of the chronic fatigue syndrome, and that such chronic or recurrent infections may be caused by an intestinal reservoir of yeasts. Opponents of the hypothesis, however, point out that no hard data on the pathogenetic significance of an intestinal reservoir of yeasts are available, controlled studies have failed to demonstrate the effectiveness of antifungal treatment. Discussions are however, hampered by a lack of objective data. The postulated pathomechanisms therefore need to be clarified, diagnostic criteria developed, and the efficacy of the proposed therapeutic measures shown by controlled studies. Until this has been done, assumption about the pathogenicity of yeasts in the bowel, cannot be taken as a basis for binding therapeutic recommendations.Publication Types: Review Review, Tutorial PMID: 8999002Again, why do the majority of IBS patients get better on treatments completely unrelated to treating candida?


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Skin thing....Here is the theory....when Candida over-runs you it over-runs everything, intestines, skin, everything..so to prove that I had Candida in my intestines which was causing all of my IBS stuff she looked at my skin for some sort of white bump sort of thing (that most people have because she usually finds them on everyone who has any symptom of Candida at all) kinda like a quick diagnostic to prove it to me that I had Candida.I don't got none of these funny white bumps on my skin, but I do have yellow in my irises that prove it probably is Candida even I'm the only person on the planet that doesn't have Candida on the skin like I am supposed to....K.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Meckle, did you watch all these ever?Advances in Irritable Bowel SyndromeLecture series http://www.conference-cast.com/ibs/Lecture...dRegLecture.cfm


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

also for 150.00 buck you can get this on cd.A gastroenterology teaching project.Irritable Bowel SyndromeCTP 13 Table of ContentsTitle Slide Functional GI Disorders - Definition Functional GI Disorders - Definition Functional GI Disorders - Anatomic Regions Esophageal Functional GI Disorders Gastroduodenal Functional GI Disorders Bowel Functional GI Disorders Biliary Functional GI Disorders Anorectal Functional GI Disorders Definition of IBSIBS - Epidemiology U.S. Prevalence World Prevalences Health Care Seeking Doctor Visits by Gender Prevalence of Diagnosis in Clinical Practice Work and School Absences - U.S. Data Physician Visits per Year - U.S. Data Epidemiology SummaryGastrointestinal Physiology Effects of Stress on GI Symptoms Time Line of Physiologic Research in IBS Normal Colonic Response to Stress - Almy, 1951. Increased Meal-Stimulated Sigmoid Motility in IBS - Rogers, 1989 Effect of Anticholinergic on Meal-Stimulated Sigmoid Motility - Sullivan, 1978 Stress-induced Effects on Jejunal Activity - Kumar, 1985 Normal Migrating Motor Complex Discrete Clustered Contractions in IBS - Kellow, 1987 Prolonged Propagated Contractions in IBS - Kellow, 1987 Pain Produced from Rectosigmoid Distension - Whitehead, 1980 Lower Pain Tolerance in IBS Occurs Primarily in the Bowel - Whitehead, 1990 Brain-Gut Physiology Integration of CNS-Gastrointestinal Function Ascending Pain Pathway #1 Ascending Pain Pathway #2 continued Descending Pain Modulating System The Enteric Nervous System Enteric Nervous System Anatomy Effect of CNS on ENS Activity Visceral Hypersensitivity Spinal Hyperexcitability - General Concept Visceral Hypersensitivity - Normal Regulatory Activity Visceral Hypersensitivity - Painful Event Visceral Hypersensitivity - Sensitizing Event Visceral Hypersensitivity - Regulatory Activity After Sensitization Visceral Hypersensitivity - Summary slide Molecular Mechanism for Visceral Hypersensitivity - I. Magnesium Block Molecular Mechanism for Visceral Hypersensitivity - II. Ca2+ Entry and Binding Molecular Mechanism for Visceral Hypersensitivity - III. Nitric Oxide Diffusion Colonic Distension in Normals - Pain Reporting Rectal Pain Threshold Post Distension - IBS vs. Normals Change in Symptoms and Rectal Sensitivity Over Time Sigmoid Distension - Fedotozine Effect Effect of Octreotide on Pain Reporting in IBS Regional Cerebral Activation - PET Scan Correlation of Anterior Cingulate Activity with Rectal Pain Intensity Increased REM Sleep in IBS Pathophysiology SummaryPsychosocial Factors Dysmotility and Hyperalgesia, Symptoms and Health Care Seeking Self-selection into Clinical Practice Psychosocial Disturbances in Referral Practices Frequency of Psychiatric Disorders in IBS - Referral Centers Are Psychological Disturbances the Same? Comparison of Psychologic Disturbance Abnormal MMPI Scores Among IBS Patients and Non-patients and Normals Conceptual Model of IBS Psychosocial Factors Affecting Outcome in IBS IBS and Abuse - Abuse Reporting Based on IBS Severity and Treatment Site IBS and Abuse - Effects on Health Status Severe IBS and Abuse - Possible Mechanisms IBS and Abuse - Self-Selection Psychosocial SummaryDiagnosis Timeline of Diagnostic Approaches Diagnostic Approach - Overall Scheme Establish Symptom-Based Diagnosis Manning Criteria Rome Criteria Identify Dominant Symptom Other Clinical Factors Perform Diagnostic Tests Initial Evaluation -Rome Recommendations "Red Flags" Differential Diagnosis Initiate Treatment - Reassess in 3-6 Weeks Additional Specialized Studies Change in Diagnosis Unusual After Initial Evaluation Symptoms Retained at Follow-up Symptom Onset and DisappearanceTreatment Physician-Patient Relationship - Treatment Guidelines Treatment Guidelines and M.D. Visits Combined Slide - Listing of Treatment Guidelines and M.D. Visits The Patient's Agenda The Doctor's Agenda Factors Affecting Treatment Placebo Response Rate Spectrum of Severity in IBS Mild IBS - Routine Check-up with Primary Care Physician Education and Reassurance Dietary Modifications Moderate IBS - Referral to a Gastroenterologist Monitoring and Modification Symptom Diary Pharmacotherapy of Gut Symptoms Pharmaceutical Agents Psychological Treatments Psychological Treatments - Definitions Psychologic Interventions - Treatment Study Results Psychotherapy - Interpersonal Treatment Psychotherapy - Interpersonal Treatment cont. Severe IBS - Sent to Referral Center Set Realistic Goals Focus on Health, not Illness Antidepressants for Pain Control Brain - Gut Inhibitory Pain Pathway "Gate" Control Comparison of Tricyclic and SSRI Antidepressants Referral for Symptom Management Indications for Referral Treatment Summary Future Pharmacological Agents


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Meckle,you are studying to be a doctor. i think that is incredible, and i am sure you will be a good one.--but just to be clear. if i was in need of acute care i would definitely see an orthodox doctor, but i think it is clear that orthodox medicine is very poor at treating chronic illness.*********************davidla,always good to hear from you. i am so close to being well, but there is still something going on within me and i can't figure it out. i think it may have to do with all the severe food intolerances that i have developed over the years. one of these days i would like to hear your story and where you are at in your progression.**********************************************i agree with meckle about not burying a topic like this in no-man's-land. i also think that the "candida" word freaks too many people out and that is why i never use it. instead i speak of fungus. by the way ERIC ---- the MAYO CLINIC study ---- was that 40 or 42 species of fungus that they discovered in the sinus cavities that was causing the weird immune activation? i forget.Eric, you promised to keep me updated as to when the Mayo Clinic was going to publish their research on the intestinal biopsies with respect to their search for fungal organisms. have you heard anything yet?Jenkins,it sounds like you could have picked something up in texas. the know-it-alls here will tell me that i am wrong but it makes good sense to me. texas borders mexico and people get sick all the time when they go to mexico. the mexicans don't get sick because they are probably adapted to the bacteria.i have posted a lot of info the past month on bacteria and how it can cause all kinds of problems but the immune system is shielded from recognizing it. therefore, the "bad" bacteria just continues to give off toxins that your liver can not metabolize. I SUFFERED FROM THE SAME TOXIC/SICK FEELING FOR 7 YEARS. IT IS FINALLY GONE. IT CAME ON AFTER 2 COURSES OF ANTIBIOTICS. if i told you how i got rid of it you would never believe me --- no one would -- sometimes i don't even believe it but it worked.meckle, my yeast-ally.... you know it is impossible for me to be brief.(actually i am a bit wordy at times.) ( it is a shame because i bet you will be leaving us soon and i will be left alone to fend off the hounds myself)


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## Jenkins (Feb 15, 2002)

Eric--Wow you are so into proving your point I wonder if you read anyones post with actual interest. Welp some of those people that have "IBS" maybe don't have IBS. I for one have been told by two doctors I have IBS when in fact I have never even had a colonoscopy no doctor seems to want to give me one. Why don't you try to think outside of the box and realize alot of people may be walking around with the diagnosis of IBS when they dont actually have it. And how are we to know that there is simply one cause for IBS?? Perhaps one day they will find 50 different sound proof reasons of what caused what we all came to know as IBS, eliminating the term IBS all together-- I Mean really IBS is a catch all phrase these days and most doctors are more than happy to hand you that diagnosis without proper testing. I told my doctor that my dads grandmother died of colon cancer along with two of his uncles and now my dad at the age of 56 has colon cancer that metasticized to his liver. It's like my doctor didn't even hear me. I mean I think that deserves some attention when I myself have many bowel troubles. Nope IBS and anxiety off you go with your little pills come back in three months so we can do the same old song and dance all over again. IBS is not set in stone as far as I am concerned and you can post all the long confirmative information all you want truth is there is always a possibility that what I am saying is true.







Jenkins/Kellie


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: There are tons of bugs why does candida stand out? There are even different strains of candida?


Eric,finally you are catching on. candida is usually picked because it is one of the more common subtypes that exists in humans.however, we know from your Mayo Clinic study that there can be ---what??? 40, 50 different types of fungus.... causing some type of weird immune response. if the researchers are correct then some of this could be due to a genetic tendency to be hypersensitive.also, all the problems that you list can EASILY be provoked by the dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of bacterial and fungal toxins that are given off.-- and don't forget ---- your mayo clinic study said that culturing the fungus was extremely difficult to do. apparently it likes to stay tucked away within the tissue lining --- safe and snug as a bug in a rug.


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## Jenkins (Feb 15, 2002)

Kel-I would love to know what you did to get rid of it. You can email me personally at jenkins22270###yahoo.comI was in the part of Texas that is near Louisiana but this womans house may as well been a third world country. My boyfriend did warn me and she was all I cleaned everything up and he said it was clean for her standards as I stood there looking about thinkin no way is this clean. Please let me know what you did to fix yourself I desperatley need some help over here.Kellie


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Jenkins,you are right on TARGET there!!!!if you keep thinking along these lines -- you can dig yourself out of the hole that you are in. i refused to listen to my doctors and slowly i have made tremendous progress. --- but i am still frustrated over the collapse of my immune system.it is possible that meckle is much further along than me because he is younger than me and caught it in time before serious damage occured. anything is possible.as far as bacteria is concerned --- my CDSA says that i have a case of dysbiosis and i believe it but it does not seem to reverse itself. the doctors are clueless --- that should rtell us all something -- right???if you had e coli 0157 (???) --- they could slam you on antibiotics but if you have a very slow festering bacterial problem -- then all they will do is give you a blank stare and send you to the shrink.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

To clarify what I was hoping to creat was not JUST a send the Candida of to no-man's land (hey for some reason most people find the other sections of this board...diarrhea...constipation, etc because they are looking for more specific info to start with) but more of a how can we make it so there is less"ALL DOCTORS BAD ALL SCIENCE IS ####""ONLY SCIENCE IS GOOD ALL THE REST ARE QUACKS"constant bickering going on here.No one on either side seems to be able to control themselves and Jeff has usually come down on the side of wanting the board to be much more along the lines of "scientifically validated" rather than "suspected quackery"But if he is game I think that maybe giving a SAFE HAVEN for the discussion of alternative medicine might DECREASE the noise and INCREASE the ability of someone to get what type of information the want without having to wade through all the bullcrap.But I suspect some people may prefer the bickering to having a safe haven to discuss their viewpoint....unfortunately.AND for the UMPTEENTH TIME...I am NOT IN ANY WAY EITHER OR...There are a LOT of good things about each system and A LOT of #### as well. I am always talking about finding a doctory who is doing something other than what the 15 min lecture on IBS 20 years ago taught them AND I do promote some ALTERNATIVE methods that really do seem to have some benefit that is understandable given all the known biological, chemical, and physical laws of the universe. I know it is silly but if you read my posts I talk about PROBIOTICS a lot and PEPPERMINT which both tend to be ALTERNATIVE. and not what your TRADITIONAL doctor will recommend...But post a few abstracts and one is immediately cast as a SCIENCE NAZI and I am SICK TO DEATH of being accused of things I AM NOT IN ANYWAY.Thank you for your attention.K.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Jenkins, my dad just died of colon cancer, if your doctor won't give you one find one that will, even if you tried two times. I am not sure why there not, except maybe your age or something or a lack of red flag symptoms or lack of anything showing on tests like blood work, which has advance significantly as well. They don't give colonoscopies as much for IBS though like they use to depending on your medical history and age, because they know mucking with the colons nerves can make IBS worse in some people and the diagnoses of IBS is better then it was in the past, so unless there are "red flag" alarm symptoms, they hold off.I am well aware of not all people have IBS, some have celiac, some frutose intloernce, some other gi conditions for sure and even a small percentage misdiagnosed.If however your diagnosed with IBS using the right criteria and the symptoms don't change after six months, an you have no alarm symptoms, there is a good chance you have IBS.That's also not to say people can have IBS and other conditions. Many do, especially dyspepsia.However the majority of IBS patients diagnosed using the right criteria for IBS have IBS. So when you see a doctor ask them what criteria they are diagnosing you with IBS with?Its outdated to say IBS is a catch all term anymore. IBS is a real physical medical condition of which a huge amount of research has been done and more being done. Kel the sinus and the digestive system are two different systems.I thing you should also know lately they found in allergies that kids raised on farms exposed to more pathogens are less likely to develop allergies then those raised in confined environments at home. yes all there are a zillion possiblities of infection, virues, pathogens and other reasons and the list is majorally extensive, and the reason why people should work closely with their doctors for red flags or symptoms not matching IBS. But NO Pathogen has been found as a biological marker in IBS!!!!


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

Eric,Since you build the website that sells the product you still earn your living based on the sale of the product.I never made any of those claims you are making about candida.You ahve just collected everything any quack ever said about it and lumped on myself and other here. Most of the claims you have just made I have not even heard of before.What I am saying is that it Plausibly plays SOME ROLE in IBS for SOME people. I also think your favoured theory of brain-gut axis imbalance is also a plasuible theory for some people. It is NOT EITHER/OR.


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

Ok Kmottus,I understand your proposal a bit better now.Yeah maybe that is a good idea then. I personally don't like to think in terms of scientific and alternative - I think of them all as potential solutions in the same pot - but in the name of peace and quite I'll vote for your solution.Meckle


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

hey lionala Are you







Or are you trying to shut your ears? I don';t think anyone is listening to the other.


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## Fachtna (May 22, 2002)

Sigh..... Here we go again. Of the four main protagonists (Meckle, Eric, Kel, Flux), I find Meckle the most level headed. He's not dismissing the relevance of other theories - merely trying to highlight an approach that he and others have benefitted from. I have seen articles and published research in American and Australian medical journals on IBS and bacteria. Some were written by T Borody, the guy who did pionerring work on H pylori and was ridiculed for it for many years by the mainstseam medical consensus. Kel, I'm afraid I find a germ of truth in someone's criticism that you try so many different things at once, and also I worry that you "experiment" on youself so much and hope that you don't do yourself harm. Meckle on the other hand seems to have followed a programme under the supervision of a successful doctor who practises in London and Ireland and has had great success with this approach. Eric and Flux's attitude to this is most unscientific - to me science involves being open-minded, especially in the case of something like IBS where - whatever research has been done on serotonim etc - no expert is going to claim that a cause or a cure has been found for it. It they don't know what causes it and they don't know how to cure it, and if many IBS patients who have tried everything else gain relief from approaches based on a bacterial, fungal, yeast etc approach, surely it it is unscientific to totally rule out any role for these things in IBS, or at least in may of those who are currently diagnosed as having IBS? As far as I'm concerned the jury on these things is out.Eric - why do many IBS sufferers gain relief from anti-biotics?Why do many IBS sufferers benefit from a low carbohydrate, low sugar diet?Why do you dismiss the experience of Meckle and others who have beaten their IBS through treatment programmes based on a bacterial/fungal approach?Why do you treat the theories of respected Gastroenterologists such as T Borody as heresy rather than as a minority scientific viewpoint with which you do not agree? Especially since minority viewpoints have often in the past become conventional wisdom eventually.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

Here are your *scientific*







answers...


> quote:Eric - why do many IBS sufferers gain relief from anti-biotics?


Do any? We have little evidence since the only formal studies may involve those who never had IBS. Anecdotally, on this BB, many seem to have *contracted IBS after having antibiotics*, but that could be unrelated or related to the reason they were given antibiotics in the first place (i.e., gastroenteritis).


> quote:Why do many IBS sufferers benefit from a low carbohydrate, low sugar diet?


Again, there is little formal evidence this is the case. Most studies of diet don't seem to point to anything in particular. However, elimination diets superficially tend to improvement, but this may be due to reduced intake rather than a problem with any specific foods. Anecdotally, there seems to be a fair variety of dietary triggers.


> quote:Why do you dismiss the experience of Meckle and others who have beaten their IBS through treatment programmes based on a bacterial/fungal approach?


They are anecdotes and as such difficult to evaluate. We don't know if they really had IBS. In addition, their approaches could have been irrelevant to their improvement. Without double-blinding and placebo controls, how can we know?


> quote:Why do you treat the theories of respected Gastroenterologists such as T Borody as heresy rather than as a minority scientific viewpoint with which you do not agree?


T Borody's patients almost certainly had some other problem other than Rome-defined IBS. That's probably why they are in the "minority". Most people who appear to have IBS don't have the condition being treated by this or similar therapies. However, this appears to be a common result in IBS research. That is, the researcher finds or succeeds in finding or treating what he or she sets out to. It is uncommon, however, for the effect to be consistently replicated in other studies. One explanation is that there are multiple underlying pathologies IBS. However, most IBSers presumably have a common pathology related to the brain-gut and that is unrelated to these specialized misdiagnosed cases.


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

> quote: Without double-blinding and placebo controls, how can we know?


Ah progress ! On this point Flux I completely agree. However and this is the key issue that causes all these rows, to be truly scientific about it:We CANNOT say that the candida idea ISN'T true either.Yet this is EXACTLY whah you a eric and others consistently do - in fact you hound an denigrate those who favour the possiblity.Since this kind of well designed placebo-controlled double blind studies have not been done you CANNOT say with absolute certainly that yeast does or does not cause IBS symptoms.What myself , kel and others are saying is that it is a POSSIBLITY, and through worknig with that possiblity have found solutions to our problems.As for the Rome criteria - interesting concept, but the reality is that IBS is still a catch-all diagnosis.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

> quote:Why do many IBS sufferers benefit from a low carbohydrate, low sugar diet?


You might want to define what you mean by sugar. If it is fructose or lactose( not sucrose which is commonly called sugar), because patients have lactose or fructose malabsorption, gas and diarrhea is eliminated and some studies have shown that for those with fructose malabsorption, fructose free diets help to eliminate symptoms of bloating and pain as well. Lactose free diets haven't helped IBS patients with lactose malabsorption in ridding them of pain and bloating in double blind studies. It can be argued that fructose malabsorbers have had succes with fructose fre diets because double blind studies are hard to do for vegetables and fruits as it is hard to replicate these items. It can also be argued that when you eliminate veggies and fruits you are eliminating a whole bunch of things, other than the sugar, which cause gas and other symptoms. So there a bunch of reasons that might be at play other than the notorious yeast. However it is to be said that fructose and lactose malbsorption can be proved by hydrogen breath tests. Unfortunately there are no valid studies for yeast which can be replicated.


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## Fachtna (May 22, 2002)

Here are your scientific answers...quote:


> quote: Do any? We have little evidence since the only formal studies may involve those who never had IBS. Anecdotally, on this BB, many seem to have contracted IBS after having antibiotics, but that could be unrelated or related to the reason they were given antibiotics in the first place (i.e., gastroenteritis).


I have read of at least one study of IBS patients where a significant number of them received short-term relief from anti-biotics. I'll try to find it if I have time. But then you say something interesting - "Anecdotally, on this BB, many seem to have contracted IBS after having antibiotics" Well in the same vein, anecdotally many on this BB, including myself, seem to have obtained short-term relief from antibiotics. How do you explain this and the fact as you acknowledge that many seem to contract IBS after a course of anti-biotics and/or after gastritis? You say "but that could be unrelated or related to the reason they were given antibiotics in the first place (i.e., gastroenteritis)" Actually I find this a very reasonable comment - you say "could be related or unrelated". Well exactly! All I'm saying and Meckle is saying is that we can't rule out the possibilities at this stage. Being more inclined towards one theory or another is one thing. But seeming to treat one theory or the other as dangerous heresy, as you and Eric seem to have done previously is quite another.You did't really in my opinion answer my question about why many here seem to benifit from low carboydrate diets. Granted, there is not much formal medical data on this. I never said there was. But when person after person on this BB who have been diagnosed with IBS report relief from such a diet, how can you totally dismiss that? I'm not saying this proves that IBS is caused by bacteria, or that this is an element in all people with IBS, but simply that neither of us has sufficient cause to either totally dismiss or totally beleive in such a theory. IN the abscene of a definite medicaly know cause or cure for IBS, what are IBS sufferers supposed to do? Do nothing and wait for the medical profession to come up with a cure? No! The whole point of this BB is for people to share information, and find things which help them even if we don't know exactly why these things work and even if there is as yet no body of research to back them up. Doing something which gives you relief, as long as it is not dangerous (which is I admit a danger about informal sharing of information) is the best we can do, and people should not be put off that by lack of firm medical proof.


> quote: quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Why do you dismiss the experience of Meckle and others who have beaten their IBS through treatment programmes based on a bacterial/fungal approach?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------They are anecdotes and as such difficult to evaluate. We don't know if they really had IBS. In addition, their approaches could have been irrelevant to their improvement. Without double-blinding and placebo controls, how can we know?


Mmmm - "We don't really know if they had IBS". The thing is they were DIAGNOSED as having IBS. And that's mostly what people who come to this board are - people who have been diagnosed with IBS. Now you can argue about what exactly IBS is and say that really many of those diagnosed with it really have some other unkown, chronic digestive disorder, but it doesn't alter the fact that many users of this BB could benifit from this information. Frankly, you're comment that their approaches could have been irrelevant to their improvement is intellectually arrogant, insulting, and contrary to the whole point of this BB which is for people to share information about their condition and how they cope with it. Whenever you come accross someone who has benifitted from something that you don't approve of, you always say that. I have had IBS for 12 years and through constant trial and error I have noticed certain patterns which I described here previously - I know my own body - but when I described these patterns here previously you dismissed my observations in the same manner - that the same coinindences might have been occuring over and over again. Give us a break - you're not the only one with a modicum of intelligence. "Without double-blinding and placebo controls, how can we know?"Well precisely, how can we know, how can YOU know? Isn't that what myself and Meckle are saying?


> quote: T Borody's patients almost certainly had some other problem other than Rome-defined IBS.


Again, knowbody knows their business better than you, not even one of the world's foremost gastroenterologists.


> quote: One explanation is that there are multiple underlying pathologies IBS.


Well yeah and isn't that again very much in line with what myself and Meckle are saying? What's going on here? When you dissect your posts they include many open minded comments which seem to leave plenty of space for honest and open debate, but when you attack other people's opinions you often do so with the most virulent fanatical arrogance.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Here we go again!









> quote:You did't really in my opinion answer my question about why many here seem to benifit from low carboydrate diets. Granted, there is not much formal medical data on this. I never said there was. But when person after person on this BB who have been diagnosed with IBS report relief from such a diet, how can you totally dismiss that? I'm not saying this proves that IBS is caused by bacteria, or that this is an element in all people with IBS, but simply that neither of us has sufficient cause to either totally dismiss or totally beleive in such a theory. IN the abscene of a definite medicaly know cause or cure for IBS, what are IBS sufferers supposed to do? Do nothing and wait for the medical profession to come up with a cure? No! The whole point of this BB is for people to share information, and find things which help them even if we don't know exactly why these things work and even if there is as yet no body of research to back them up. Doing something which gives you relief, as long as it is not dangerous (which is I admit a danger about informal sharing of information) is the best we can do, and people should not be put off that by lack of firm medical proof.


Not very scientific. I gave an answer and yet you have ignored it. Tch Tch!


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## sick.n.tired (Nov 1, 2003)

GO FACHYLACHA! *ahem* Pardon me, I got carried away for a second.







There have been a lot of good points brought up here. Here is a summary of my favorites:1) The absence of evidence does not necessarily disprove something.2) While we know a lot more about IBS than we did 10 years ago, we still can't precisely define it. All we can do is say what it isn't. As we whittle away at IBS and rule things out, it may be that in 10, 20, or 30 years we will discover that there is really no IBS but only several DIFFERENT disorders/syndromes/dieases/whatever with the SAME symptoms.And I would like to add that scientific studies cannot claim to have found causal relationships. I am a scientist. I have taken the classes in statistics, methodology, and even philosophy. I know that you can't really *prove* anything even through science. The best you can do is find significant relationships between things. There comes a point at which (as Meckle, I think it was, said) even scientists have to take a leap of faith, so to speak, and make an educated guess. We are still in the "educated guess" stage in solving the riddle of IBS. Getting a diagnosis of IBS is rather like getting diagnosed with headaches. There are a multitude of different causes and treatments for headaches even though headaches with different causes can feel the same. We know that headaches can be caused by anxiety, hormonal imbalance or fluctuations, certain medications, changes in blood pressure, allergic responses to foods or smells, viruses, brain cancer, poor eyesight, sinus infections, getting hit in the head, etc., etc. Perhaps IBS not it's own illness but merely symptoms (like a headache or coughing) of other, later-to-be-isolated illnesses. I don't want this board to be divided into different boards for different treatment approaches b/c I think there are a multitude of different causes and treatments for IBS. Let's keep it all on one board for convenience.


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## sick.n.tired (Nov 1, 2003)

I thought I ought to add that when I was cheering for Fachylacha I was only agreeing with the ideas expressed as regards to IBS, not in regards to criticisms of Bonniei or anyone else.







I don't enjoy watching people bash others or get bashed themselves.







This is a great discussion! Let's not make it personal, 'K?


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## Fachtna (May 22, 2002)

Sick n' Tired, I take your point about criticising people - some of my comments about Flux were a bit personal - but just to be pedantic, I haven't criticised Bonnei (I haven't got round to her yet!!!







)Bonnei - take it easy there - I can't spend my whole day writing here - addressing Flux exhausted me for a while. By the way I'm glad to see your well - I haven't spoken to you in a while but there was a time when I found it difficult to understand you. Anyway, yes you suggested a possible reply to one of my answers and fair play to you, but it doesn't change my basic point, which is that I'm not dismissing such theories as you suggest, I'm merely objecting to those who totally dismiss bacteria etc as a possible factor.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:u say "could be related or unrelated".


Related to the reason they were given antibiotics, not because of the antibiotics.


> quote: But when person after person on this BB who have been diagnosed with IBS report relief from such a diet, how can you totally dismiss that?


The simplest explanation would be that it is due to a reduction in volume of material and less "workload" for the gut.


> quote: The thing is they were DIAGNOSED as having IBS.


Actually they were not. IBS diagnosis is fairly specific in terms of Rome II criteria. Pimental's original study didn't use Rome criteria and neither has Borody.


> quote:you're comment that their approaches could have been irrelevant to their improvement is


But what if it is true?


> quote:Well precisely, how can we know, how can YOU know?


We don't know. That is the point.


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## DavidLA (Nov 28, 2000)

Meckle-What I find interesting is when I've spoken with some of the conventional Drs. (the ones that specialize in "IBS") or are the "experts in IBS" they seem more open minded to overgrowth's of bacteria/candida fungal infections causing digestive problems than some of the people on this board. Making a blanket statement that "IBS" is DEFINITELY not connected to yeast's/Fungal overgrowths/bacteria/parasites is beyond the scope of ANY common sense...Given how "IBS" is determined and diagnosed. I really feel badfor anyone that's suffering with "IBS" AND waiting for this "IBS" drug to come out or who buy into the the whole stress/brain connection. I personally did for years, that plus the FEAR of experimenting with different supplements. I think some of the people on this board are simply on some kind of a ego trip..& refuse to be open minded to any other explanations or possible treatments.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

We are continuously asking for some studies or proof in regards to IBS and bacteria or candida?Not one person has provided that ever, instead were told to think outside the box. The brain gut theory is not my personal theory or Flux's or K's, its the current state of art on IBS research, based on the pathology of problems they HAVE FOUND IN IBS!!!Part of the problem here is the disregard or lack of knowledge on the MAJOR amount of research that has been done on IBS. Its hard to get this through to anyone, as they are totally disregarding all the new IBS research and are not viewing it with an open mind either, the same things were accuse here of. First you have to know about the box, before you can think out of it.And who says we don't think outside of it, I have read anything and erverything I can get my hands on on IBS, from the web to teaching projects gastroenterologists have given me personally on the current state of information on IBS.Nobody answers the questions above I posted in how can candida for example causes what they see in IBS?There are many organic conditions that are studied along with IBS to compare IBS too.Nor am I saying some people here do not have other issues. That is where peoples doctors come in and that is where studying things helps a person to calirify symptoms and problems so you can go back to the doctor and ask them questions. Which is not to be confused with people saying doctors suck so I will self diagnose myself and treat what I believe, which may be based on a person having no understanding of the digestive system. Now that is dangerous.As far as T Borody is concerned, well."Irritable Bowel Syndrome IBS should not be diagnosed until infestation with the parasite Dientamoeba fragilis has been ruled out, a Sydney gastroenterologist says."This is consistant with all gastorenterolgists, he is not calling IBS a parasite infection, he is saying rule out parasite infections.Some of these conditions MIMICK SOME IBS SYMPTOMS! Most have red flags!!!Is it irritable bowel? Rule out parasites first2 October 02 edition of Australian Medical Observer by Rada RouseIrritable Bowel Syndrome IBS should not be diagnosed until infestation with the parasite Dientamoeba fragilis has been ruled out, a Sydney gastroenterologist says.Many patients with diarrhoea-type IBS symptoms - such as bloating, abdominal cramps and urgency - could obtain relief by eradication of this parasite, Centre for Digestive Diseases director Dr Tom Borody said.But most commercial laboratories were not geared to detect it, he said.Dr Borody will tell the Gastroenterological Society of Australia scientific meeting in Adelaide next week that his trials show D. fragilis cannot be detected in fresh stool samples but must be placed in a fixative to prevent degradation."This bug is more common than giardia," Dr Borody told Medical Observer."It's always been there but it's not widely known because we send stools off in an incorrect fashion, to people who don't know how to find it."Parasitologist Graham Robertson, from Sydney's Concord Repatriation Hospital, is one of Australia's few experts in the detection of D. fragilis, although more hospitals are testing for it and training their laboratory staff.Mr Robertson designed a special fixative to enable Dr Borody to conduct a pilot study to detect and eradicate the parasite in 21 patients with a two-month to lifelong history of symptoms including diarrhoea, constipation, cramps, bloating, flatulence, nausea, fatigue and anorexia.All patients tested positive for the parasite using fixed stool samples examined by Mr Robertson, but no parasite was found using fresh, unfixed specimens examined routinely by an accredited pathology laboratory.A treatment regimen developed by Dr Borody - iodoquinol and doxycychne for adults, iodoquinol and Flagyl for children - eradicated the parasite in all patients."You can't use Flagyl alone because it makes people feel better, but then the symptoms come back," Dr Borody said.In 14 out of the 21 patients 67%, irregular bowel habits resolved immediately, and other symptom improvements were maintained at four weeks post-eradication.Side-effects included dizziness, headache, nausea, lethargy and pruritus. MO Dientamoeba fragilis Infection fact sheet from center for disease control. http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dpd/parasites/di...dientamoeba.htm This parasite causes d for the most part, most infections caused d, but in IBS, IBS causes D and C and alternating. IT also has specific symptoms that don't match an infection from this bug as well as red flags this bug may cause to alert a doctor to checking for it.People need to work closely with their doctors to rule out organic causes, no one argues that either. However, because they can't find anything it doesn't mean its time to start self diagnosing and guessing. It means IBS needs more research to figure out the complexities of it all.Flux already answered the antibiotic question, but also some work as prokinetic reasons.As mention earlier as well there is a link to getting IBS from Antibiotics for some people."Why do many IBS sufferers benefit from a low carbohydrate, low sugar diet?"Carb's eventually break down to serotonin and this is an area of IBS research at some centers and sugars can cause more fermentation and hence gas problems and there are physiological reasons and phycological reasons and act of eating reasons and all kinds of other reasons."Why do you dismiss the experience of Meckle and others who have beaten their IBS through treatment programmes based on a bacterial/fungal approach?"Have they beaten it? Really?Also I am in agreement with Flux on we don't know anything about their personal doctors and treatments and diagnoses.However, did they self diagnose themselves and then treat say candida, without anyone actually finding it? Is there immune systems highly compromised?"Why do you treat the theories of respected Gastroenterologists such as T Borody as heresy rather than as a minority scientific viewpoint with which you do not agree?"I respect Dr Borody work, especially with ulcers and stress. I would imagine if you emailed him on IBS and asked him what he thought and if he followed the majority of research on IBS, you might get a different opinion then what you personally think he thinks.I also could ask you the same question?Why do you treat the majority of IBS research from all over the world, from tons of different angles and professions, from some of the worlds leading gastroenterologists, neurogastroenterologists, international immuneologists and many other professions as invalid?Or just thinking that they are missing a some sort of bacteria or fungus not yet found! Because the truth is no one has found a pathogen in IBS!!!! So all it is belief? And all were asking for is research in regards to IBS and clinical studies, so with an open mind we can review it.Why do the majority of IBS pateints seen at gastroenerologists center, demonstrate effected serotonin dyregulation?HEALTH-SYSTEM EDITION CLINICAL PRACTICE New role seen for serotonin in irritable bowel syndrome In what looks like another win for targeted therapy, the two lead investigators of a novel study of serotonin showed for the first time that abnormal alterations in serotonin signaling in the gut are present in patients with irritable bowel syndrome. The University of Vermont researchersï¿½Peter Moses, M.D., associate professor of medicine and director of clinical research in digestive diseases, and Gary Mawe, Ph.D., professor of anatomy and neurobiologyï¿½reported their findings during the American College of Gastroenterology ACG plenary session, which featured selected state-of-the-art oral presentations. "We validated for the first time a significant molecular change in the guts of people with IBS," Mawe emphasized in an interview with Drug Topics. "Now we can say 'their guts are different from normal,' and this may be the factor that underlies the difference in GI function." Clinically, the frustration of IBS has always been that despite obvious symptoms of altered gut functionï¿½chronic profound constipation or diarrhea, bloating, and heightened sensitivity to abdominal painï¿½there's no sign of organic disease. "No matter what test is run, from a blood test to a biopsy, the GI tract always looks normal," said Mawe. "As a result, some doctors may convince their patients of a basic relationship with stress or depression in IBS, and thus perpetuate the stigma that 'it's all in your head.' " Moses added, "Serotonin 5-HT is a naturally occurring signaling molecule neurotransmitter necessary for normal gut function. When released, it causes gut motility and secretion, triggering signals to the brain and spinal cord." Their finding that key signaling elements are different in IBS challenges the common belief that IBS is basically a psychologic or social disorder, he said. "It suggests, instead, that IBS is due to altered GI tract biochemistry and to interactions between gut and brain." Moses pointed out, again contrary to popular belief, that 95% of all serotonin is localized in the GI tract, not the brain. Emphasized Mawe, "Now we have a new perspective on molecular changes in the intestines of individuals with IBS. We identified a significant decrease in the serotonin transporters in cells that form the inner lining of the GI tract." There, the transportersï¿½regulatory molecules controlling serotonin activityï¿½normally act as a kind of sponge to soak up serotonin once it has been released, take it back to its receptors, and thus stop its actions. "But because the transporters are diminished in IBS, serotonin stays around longer, which can lead to changes in motility, secretion, and sensitivity," said Mawe, who is also a professor of pharmacology. The study looked at tissue obtained from 43 healthy controls and 32 IBS patients. The latter were defined according to strict standardized diagnostic criteria. Each biopsy was evaluated by five parameters: immunohistochemical staining, histologic assessment, serotonin content, serotonin release, and the measurement of mRNA encoding. The study also examined the molecular components of serotonin signaling, including the serotonin reuptake system. Specifically, they looked at serotonin content, the endocrine cell number, serotonin release, and presence of serotonin transporters. In patients with IBS, the study found a significant decrease in serotonin content and significantly higher numbers of endocrine cells compared with controls. The release of serotonin from endocrine cells was not significantly different, however. The main finding, as noted above, showed that serotonin transporters were markedly fewer in IBS patients, which led to a reduction in the capacity to remove serotonin from intracellular space once it was released. Mawe summed up: "If our model is correctï¿½that is, that changes in signaling are what lead to the dramatic GI dysfunction in IBS patientsï¿½it validates the targeting of serotonin transmission as the focus for therapeutic tools." Naomi Pfeiffer http://dt.pdr.net/be_core/content/journals...dhpgast11b.html IS it the whole picture, no. But its a start as they start to figure out IBS.It also helps to explain in part pain transmission to the brain and abnormalities across the brain barrier in regards to problems seen in the brain specifically in regards to IBS patients.The biggest issue here is working closely with your doctor!!!Another part of this is asking what they do really know in IBS.Here is the AGA technical review on IBS. In the December 2002 issue of Gastroenterology http://www2.us.elsevierhealth.com/scripts/...1650850200481X& I and others post information from accurate sources from the US and other leading institutions to help people figure out IBS and to be able to treat it more effectively. I don't think I have seen many people posting and promoting the rome criteria for a more accurate diagnoses in regards to IBS or candida for that matter?


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: Nobody answers the questions above I posted in how can candida for example causes what they see in IBS?


if only you were capable of making a few simple inferences you would see the connections.However, if you are looking for a very SIMPLE and CLEAR CUT association between IBS and fungal hypersensitivity you will NOT get one.The reason for this is because IBS is multifactorial and will NEVER be explained by a SINGLE cause.Instead --- most cases --- will involve multiple factors. all of these factors will need to be unraveled.a lot of us have issues with dysbiosis. The evidence is everywhere it is overwhelming. At least we know that there are dozens and dozens of people who are smart enough to take notice of all this evidence.I know for a fact that you don't read the information that is posted. i know for a fact that you did not and will not read the work of Dr William Shaw with an open mind.Your ideas are firmly in place and you think that what is true for you is true for EVERYONE and it is NOT.************************************************** *Toxins from bacteria and fungal organisms can and do affect the brain!!!* .......


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Kel, less then six months ago you said your were cured by IBSacol. You rudely told some of the top IBS reseachers in the world that they didn't know what they were talking about. You didn't take one minute to listen to what they were saying. Because you seemed to think you knew more then them.Since then you have self diagnosed yourself with even more problems. let seemercury poisoningTartar acidfood allergiesfood intolerncesfungusyeastbacteriawhat else, as I am sure there is more?Then you do a ton of things at once to fix whatever it is you think you have?This is why I don't want to discuss this any further with you personally.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

it is tartaric acid not tarter acid.and yes--- i was smart, i had the mercury chelated from my body by DMSA. it was a very unpleasant 4 1/2 months. On the days that i took the DMSA i experienced quite a bit if shaking, tremors, nervousness, irritability, anxiety and depressed thoughts. The medical Doctor imformed me that that was typical of what mercury does to a person when it is being liberated. Your body does not like it!!!!i have immune dysfunction of some type or another. part of this is explained by both typical and atypical allergy testing which has revealed that they are off the charts.antifunagal drug therapy has helped me quite a bit but antibiotic herbals have even helped me more.Ibsacol has helped me and several others through its actions on my prostaglandins and leukotrienes. it sesms that the immune system is highly involved in IBS and is highly involved in disrupting serotonin signaling.except for my dysfunctional immune system and multiple foof intolerances --- i am in very good shape.your recommendations of CBT did not do anything for my IBS. The hynotherapy did not help me (although, i may give it a second go since i am doing so much better).i.e., what gives you partial relief does not give everyone partial relief.****************************************************************************tartaric acid...... a known toxin..... a byproduct of yeast metabolism..


> quote: Carb's eventually break down to serotonin


Carb's do NOT break down into serotonin. a carbohydrate is a NON-nitrogen bearing molecule ---- it can NOT break down into serotonin.please get your facts straight. if they taught you this in cooking school then they are wrong -- it would not be your fault (however, carbs can have an effect on insulin which theoretically increases tryptophan transport into the brain....)...


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

Eric's point are


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: your accuracy rate will approach 1%.


ahhh! the abuse i put up with.i think my accuracy rate is closer to 98%.************************************************by the way flux, what is your response to the tartaric acid levels that are found in extremely high concentrations in certain very ill patients. are we going to get one of your wacky pictures? or just an ignore?


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: Not one person has provided that ever, instead were told to think outside the box. The brain gut theory is not my personal theory or Flux's or K's, its the current state of art on IBS research, based on the pathology of problems they HAVE FOUND IN IBS!!!


eric,the doctors that you frequently quote receive substantial amounts of research dollars from the drug companies. the university of vermont researcher is being funded by the zelnorm people.ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.....i don't know about you but the research is tainted. it is tainted in a very subtle way. i.e., yes i agree that there are disturbances in serotonin but i am convinced that serotonin or the receptor is being affected by some other process.even your vermont study said in the second to last paragraph that there was some activity by the immune system that had an effect on the receptor. (it is the post from last week)my friend, you are being led down the wrong path. that is the way the drug companies want to conduct their business. they would prefer to get people on drugs that control symptoms rather than cure the condition.but to be fair--- there are many things going on and everyone is different.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: think my accuracy rate is closer to 98%


Your thinking accuracy rate is 0%.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

My mistake on the carbs directly creating serotonin issue without going into more detail.I should have said indirectly effect."L-Tryptophan and Carbohydrates L-tryptophan may be found in turkey and other dietary proteins, but it's actually a carbohydrate-rich as opposed to protein-rich meal that increases the level of this amino acid in the brain and leads to serotonin synthesis. Carbohydrates stimulate the pancreas to secrete insulin. When this occurs, some amino acids that compete with tryptophan leave the bloodstream and enter muscle cells. This causes an increase in the relative concentration of tryptophan in the bloodstream. Serotonin is synthesized and you feel that familiar sleepy feeling." http://www2.us.elsevierhealth.com/scripts/...1650850200481X& Kel, go ahead an disregard all current state of the art IBS research because the drug companies are involved. Its all a big conspiracy.Everyone should believe doctors are worthless so don't listen to them, unless they say what you want to hear, and any information from the medical communitiy is worthless and everyone should self diagnose them selves and treat what they believe, regardless if they really know what they are doing and what harm can really happen from certain treatments. Regardless of the real science and research that goes into it all.Then you qoute doctors to make a case???I guess it just can be ones studying IBS?That is the message you seem to be promoting. Mainly based on yourself and your problems and your opinion. I cannot be a part of this kind of thinking.


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

Eric,For my part. I ahve not disregarded any current research on anything. I have quite often stated hat I don'T ahve a problem with the brain-gut theory. Please do not put words and opinions in my mouth.The POINT is that you and flux disregard the candida possibility in a BIASED manner that is inconsistent with an objective scientific mindset. This is the critical point: the yeast idea has not been conclusively prooved or disproved. You CHOOSE not to believe it. Fair enough. But you do not have the right to impose your belief on all the rest of us, which is what Flux does when he belittles, insults and intimidates people posting abuot yeast. Fascist.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

> quote: Kel, less then six months ago you said your were cured by IBSacol. You rudely told some of the top IBS reseachers in the world that they didn't know what they were talking about. You didn't take one minute to listen to what they were saying. Because you seemed to think you knew more then them.Since then you have self diagnosed yourself with even more problems. let seemercury poisoningTartar acidfood allergiesfood intolerncesfungusyeastbacteriawhat else, as I am sure there is more?Then you do a ton of things at once to fix whatever it is you think you have?This is why I don't want to discuss this any further with you personally.


Thanks for the good laugh eric. I needed it. I have just suffered from food poisoning and the laugh did me good.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

The yeast people have had plenty of time to prove their theories. They have come up with zilch. Nada. Their last research was in 96 if I recall correctly. We are open minded but not naive.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

> quote: but it doesn't change my basic point, which is that I'm not dismissing such theories as you suggest, I'm merely objecting to those who totally dismiss bacteria etc as a possible factor.


Theproblem arises from my vieewpoint when you lump in the bacteria with the etc. Bacteria and yeast are two separate entities. Yeast has zero credibility in the medical community. As fas bacterial overgrowth is concerned, there is a debate going on in the medical community whether Pimental's studies are valid. There have been a lot of editorials going back and forth about it particularly how the subjects were chosen and as to the timing of the peaks in the hydrogen breath tests. While I tend to think Pimental is doing good work(hey any work for IBS is better than no work), flux is merely opicking up on the comments of those in the nedical community who have a quarrel with Pimental. He is not being arrogant but basing his opinions on what could be argued as sound arguments on the part of the naysayers.I have taken many courses of antibiotics for another problem and at the same time I was takling psychotropic medications so I don't know what helped me. I will not be like the likes of kel and insist that it was the anitibiotics.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: disregard the candida possibility in a BIASED manner that is inconsistent with an objective scientific mindset


Redundant? How can a scientific mindset not be objective? Perhaps you are confusing scientific with pseudoscientific?


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Meckle, I am in no way targeting you.Show us something later then 92 on this, at least we can show this.Postgrad Med J. 1992 Jun;68 800:453-4. Related Articles, Links Comment in: Postgrad Med J. 1993 Jan;69 807:80.The role of faecal Candida albicans in the pathogenesis of food-intolerant irritable bowel syndrome.Middleton SJ, Coley A, Hunter JO.Department of Gastroenterology, Addenbrooke's Hospital, Cambridge, UK.Candida albicans was sought in stool samples from 38 patients with irritable bowel syndrome and 20 healthy controls. In only three patients with irritable bowel syndrome was C. albicans discovered and these patients had either recently received antibiotics or the stool sample had been delayed more than 24 hours in transit. C. albicans was isolated from none of the control stool samples. We conclude that C. albicans is not involved in the aetiology of the irritable bowel syndrome.PMID: 1437926Also, we have not said bacteria plays no role at all, were saying there has been no pathogen found as the culprit in IBS.ButReport on the 4th International Symposium on Functional Gastrointestinal DisordersMarch 30th - April 2nd, 2001 Milwaukee, Wisconsin"There is a growing understanding of the multi-faceted nature of functional gastrointestinal disorders. Symptoms, behaviors, and treatment outcomes for individuals with these disorders relate to disturbances in gastrointestinal motility and sensation that is effected by interactions that take place via the brain-gut axis. To understand and study these conditions, physicians and researchers must become familiar with evolving knowledge that integrates basic science, physiology, clinical medicine, psychology, and psychiatry. Indicated below are some of the highlights of the presentations at the 4th International Symposium for Functional Gastrointestinal Disorders, which we believe truly reflect the developing areas of research in Irritable Bowel Syndrome IBS and the functional gastrointestinal GI disorders."Basic Principles: Brain-Gut Moderators: Emeran Mayer MD and Jackie Wood PhD; Panel: Michael Gershon MD, Brent Vogt PhD, Stuart Derbyshire PhD, Santosh Coutinho PhD During the last decade the concept of unique bi-directional interactions between the gut and the brain as an important factor in coordinated gut function in health has become widely accepted. More recent speculations have considered the possible role of these brain-gut interactions in brain function and the regulation of emotions. A dysregulation of brain-gut interactions is thought to play an underlying role in the functional GI disorders and may account for accompanying disorders related to emotional states e.g., anxiety. This session focused on basic physiological principles i.e., the characteristics of vital processes or functions."Mary Perdue from McMaster University, Ontario discussed the importance of the epithelial intestinal barrier to maintain immune tolerance to potentially harmful matter, such as bacteria, ingested when we eat or drink. Everything that enters the human body must pass through an epithelial layer. Various types of epithelial tissues line not only the body cavities, blood vessels, and most organs, but also our outer surface-our skin. Within the intestines, epithelial tissue forms an intestinal barrier involved with absorption, secretion, sensation, contractility, and protection. Studies in animal models show that psychological stress can disrupt this barrier, leading to the penetration of bacteria into the gut, inflammation, an immune system response inflammatory cytokines, and ultimately sensitization of neural signals from the gut to the brain that can heighten the perception of pain. Robin Spiller from the University of Notingham, UK brought this basic information to the human model of post-infectious IBS. The predictors of post-infectious IBS include increased life events and psychological distress, female sex, and longer duration of diarrhea episode. In response to bacterial infection, there is an increase in certain gut enterochromaffin secretory cells 5HT producing and inflammatory cells cytokine producing leading to prolongation of pain and diarrheal symptoms, and this may be aggravated by the presence of psychological stressors. These findings suggest ways in which infection-induced inflammation might interact with chronic stress to produce long lasting bowel dysfunction. They also suggest possible treatments that need study. " http://www.iffgd.org/symposium2001.html Next is the Report on the 5th International Symposium on Functional Gastrointestinal DisordersApril 4, 2003 to April 7, 2003 Milwaukee, WisconsinOutcomes of Pediatric Functional GI Disorders Epidemiology/Genetic/Behavioral Factors Basic Principles -- Brain-Gut Brain Imaging Emerging Techniques to Evaluate and Treat Functional GI and Motility Disorders Clinical Applications of Diagnosis and Treatment Functional GI DisordersGeneral Principles of TreatmentPharmacological Treatment Psychological Treatment http://www.iffgd.org/symposium2003report.html


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

Eric - no worries







Flux - huh ? You clearly didn't understand what I said.Bonniei - I am not speaking from the same point as Kel. I have cured my IBS-D probs of 20 years standing based on a yeast approach. Personally I don't think anti-biotics play a role in sloving yeast overgrowth. I think they CAUSE dysbiosis of one form or another.


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## DavidLA (Nov 28, 2000)

Bonniei,Kel doesn't know or claim to have all the answers of how over-growth's of yeast, bacteria, and parasites can cause digestive symtoms. She's strictly going with a theory that many people in the medical community believe in. Believe it or not..Medical Drs. do believe in this! Alternative Drs. Micro-biologists..Believe in it!!Most people on this board have tried or are currently doing: enzymes, probiotics, garlic and other supplements. There probably doing it manly because it helps there symtoms, not knowing WHY! it is helping there SYMTOMS!!!Remember that's exactly what "IBS" is..just a collection of symtoms with NO CAUSE! These supplements that people on this board are taking..are exactly the SAME as what Alternative Drs and some Conventional Drs. are telling their patients to take for Candida/Bacteria overgrowths!!!. The Same! There is mountains of evidence..unfortuanately, mostly small studies that have been done that has shown the relationship why these over-growth's can cause symtoms. Why not large studies??The chances of there being large double/blind placebo studies being done will not happen for 4 main reasons. Number one: they cost a fortune. One G.I. Doc. told me his study with 1000 patients cost over 1 million dollars. Who's going to underwrite this?? Number two: Since "IBS" is just a collection of symtoms. Ones Diet, alergies, etc. play huge roles. Trying to control these factors would be very difficult. Three: treating candida/bacteria involves taking possible many supplements..Most studies are set up for the one pill theory. You can't just take a Anti-Fungal and get better!!and Four: even if you have this great data showing the relationship..Who's going to PUBLISH IT?? The main medical Journals/Newsletters would probably say there readers would not be interested. Because all the $$$$, the Drug Company's, the current thought with conventional Drs. is going a different direction! These idea's about Candida, Bacteria over-growths have been around for a while & keep coming back. The main reason is that many patients find relief, and share it!! & alternative Drs. & some conventional Drs. see that its MORE IMPORTANT to help patients from there suffering..Than being Politically Correct!!!!!!!


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Don't you think its odd that all these same conventional doctors that conspire with the drugs companies, are urging patients to understand the major importance of stress and the gi tract and how it all works and highly promoting relaxation techniques and CBT and Gut directed Hypnotherapy for IBS? Isn't it also odd that these treatments are quite effective for the majority of IBS patients, regarless of the cause of IBS.Have you also taken into account and considered with bacteria and fugus and yeast, why there are mild moderate and severe IBS patients? How many functional disorders there are and how they can overlap and related to each other?How much research has gone into oragnic GI diseases such as IBD. How they use different conditions to compare with, the organic diseases with the functional ones.I don't think there is enough credit being given here to some fantastic Doctors working on IBS. Like Dr Gershon or DR Woods for examples. Look into who they are?You would think by reading some of the posts here, they pick their noses, work for drug money and not one of them has ever used a microscope on IBS patients or for that matter on bacteria yeast and fungus. Hell, to boot one of the worlds leading immunologists is involved in the research. You think there not looking or haven't looked? Don't you think if it was say ONE bacteria strain a drug company would make a lot of money on that pill?Gut ThoughtsThough few know about it, humans have a second brain that handles most of the body's digestive functions. Study of the enteric nervous system is a rapidly growing specialty, offering insight into malfunctions of the "gut brain" as well as the more complex cranial brain. Digestion is such a prosaic function that most people prefer not to think about it. Fortunately, they don't have to ï¿½ at least not with the brain in their heads. Though few know about it, humans and other animals have a second brain that handles most digestive functions. Deep in your gut lies a complex self-contained nervous system containing more nerve cells than the spinal cord, and indeed more neurons than all the rest of the peripheral nervous system. There are over 100 million nerve cells in the human small intestine alone. Malfunctions of this "gut brain" may be involved in irritable bowel syndrome IBS, a condition that affects an estimated 20 percent of the U.S. population and is believed to be responsible for $8 billion in health care costs alone in the United States each year, according to the International Foundation for Functional Gastrointestinal Disorders. Patients with IBS suffer bouts of chronic diarrhea, constipation, or sometimes both alternately. IBS is the most common diagnosis made by gastroenterologists. The study of the enteric nervous system is a rapidly growing specialty known as neurogastroenterology. "What the gut has to do is extremely complicated," says Michael Gershon, chair of the department of anatomy and cell biology at the Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons and author of The Second Brain Harper Perennial, 1999. "If the brain had to control that, it would have to run huge cables and have a huge number of cells devoted solely to that purpose. It makes great evolutionary sense to separate these functions and essentially use a microcomputer that is independent rather than a central processing unit." In fact, researchers believe that the gut brain evolved first ï¿½ because digestion came before locomotion in multicellular creatures. In mammals, the two systems originate near each other in the outer layer of the early embryo. Like many poorly understood organs, the gut brain was discovered by classical anatomists in the 19th century and then ignored. "No one knew what it did," says David Wingate, emeritus professor of gastrointestinal science at Queen Mary, University of London. "When you'd ask what it was for in medical school, they'd say, 'Let's move on.' " In 1899, physiologists studying dogs found that unlike any other reflex, the continuous push of material through the digestive system (now called the peristaltic reflex) continued when nerves linking the brain to the intestines were cut. By the 1970s, a society for the study of gastrointestinal motility had been set up ï¿½ but how this motility was controlled remained unclear. The vagus nerve, for example, sends some fibers from the brain to the gut; however, it connects directly with only a tiny minority of cells there. In 1965, Gershon published a paper in Science suggesting that serotonin might act as a neurotransmitter in the gut. At the time, acetylcholine and norepinephrine were accepted as transmitters in the peripheral nervous system, but serotonin was seen as a centrally acting transmitter used by some nerves to modulate the action of others. The peripheral nervous system wasn't supposed to use such controls ï¿½ only the brain and spinal cord were believed to process information through "interneurons" such as those containing serotonin. At a meeting of the Society for Neuroscience in 1981, however, Gershon and others marshaled enough data to finally convince skeptics that serotonin was indeed a key transmitter in the gut. In fact, it is now known that 95% of the body's serotonin is used by the gut ï¿½ and the enteric nervous system contains every neurotransmitter and neuromodulator found so far in the brain. "We now know quite a lot about the library of programs run by the [gut brain]," says Jackie Wood, professor of physiology and cell biology and of internal medicine at Ohio State University. "For example, when the bowel is empty, one particular program runs." Called the migrating motor complex (MMC), this involves a series of movements running from the stomach to the end of the small intestine, which is believed to function in keeping the potentially dangerous bacteria stored in the colon from moving upwards rather than out. At least 500 different species of deadly bacteria have been found to inhabit a person's colon at any given time; "traveler's diarrhea" often results when this mix is changed through exposure to new pathogens. If this happens, the gut runs a program designed to expel as much of its contents as quickly as possible ï¿½ unpleasant for the vacationer, but much better than a fatal infection. "Another program involves a flood of serotonin throughout the entire circuit, which produces the digestive pattern that mixes and stirs the contents," says Wood. Because the gut brain is smaller and more accessible than the brain itself, understanding it could offer insights about how to parse the more complex organ. "[That idea] was what lead me to begin my research when I was a fledgling neuroscientist," says Gershon. "I looked at the brain and found it daunting, and I still do, so I looked for a simpler nervous system to study." He adds, " 'Simple nervous system,' of course, turned out to be an oxymoron." Unlike the cranial brain, however, the gut brain doesn't seem to be conscious ï¿½ or at least, in health, it doesn't impinge much on consciousness. "The gut is not an organ from which you like to receive frequent progress reports," says Gershon. For most digestive processes, no news is good news. The problem in IBS, in fact, may be that the enteric nervous system becomes overly sensitive to normal functioning and reports to the brain when it shouldn't. Or, the brain may overreact to normal bowel signals. Normally, the brain may avoid conscious awareness of most gut activity. But in IBS, says Wingate, one theory is that "the barrier to information being projected into consciousness is lowered." As in many heterogeneous conditions defined by symptoms rather than specific pathology, different subgroups of patients may have different causes or varying levels of contributions by different factors. In some cases, IBS may be an autoimmune problem ï¿½ something like multiple sclerosis of the gut, where immune cells attack nervous tissue. "If you catch it early enough," says Wood, "You can use steroids to treat it [in such cases]." High doses of steroids shut down immune activity and prevent immune cells from causing harm, but they don't help once damage has been done. The gut is, in fact, a major immune organ, containing more immune cells than the rest of the body combined. The enteric nervous system interacts intimately with the immune system, and can affect mood and behavior by signaling the central nervous system. Further, the gut brain may in fact be the only system that can refuse central signals. Says Gershon, "The gut brain can say no to the big brain, absolutely. In fact, there are nerve fibers that project towards the CNS, and if the [bowel] doesn't like the message, it can turn it off or cancel it." Indeed, the vagus nerve mostly carries information from the enteric nervous system to the brain ï¿½ for every one message sent by the brain to the gut, about nine are sent in the other direction. And recent research has found that stimulating this nerve can have antidepressant and even learning-enhancing effects ï¿½ so "gut feelings" could genuinely be more than just a metaphor. The similarities between the two nervous systems may also mean that they are vulnerable to similar toxins and disease processes. For example, in both Parkinson's disease and Alzheimer's, the degenerative processes seen in brain nerve cells are also seen in the neurons of the enteric system. by Maia Szalavitz This link could also help explain the connection between psychological problems and gut problems ï¿½ and could put to rest the myth that problems such as IBS are simply "neuroses" because they so often occur in people with other psychological disorders. It may be that the real reason that bowel disorders often accompany psychological problems is that both brain and gut neurons are suffering simultaneously ï¿½ in addition to the fact that having to spend a significant portion of one's life attending to bathroom functions is in itself depressing. Simultaneous effects of drugs on both systems also account for the gastrointestinal "side effects" of Prozac and other drugs that act on serotonin metabolism ï¿½ which actually may have more effect on the bowel than on the brain, because serotonin predominates in the bowel and the drug moves through the digestive system before reaching the brain. Fortunately, in most people, the bowel quickly develops tolerance to these drugs, and gastrointestinal side effects usually subside within a few days or weeks of the start of treatment. In fact, low doses of SSRI selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor drugs may actually help patients with IBS. And since different serotonin receptors predominate in the brain and in the gut, new drugs may be developed to affect certain subtypes but not others. "What's exciting," says Wingate, "is getting away from essentially anecdotal ways of categorizing patients by symptoms and being able to study their Problems in a very systematic biological way."


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

anyway ,i had tried a drug to heal from candida just in case i have that,it was a long shot and it seems that i really miss the target.it was prescribe by an holistic m.d.and i was worst irritable,and i stop it like hundred of things i tried who make me worst.the people i've known who claim that i have candida was almost CROOK or NATURAL CROOK.i don't know the cure for candida anyway


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: The information that follows is a two-part article taken directly from Doug Kaufmann and Dave Holland, MD's new book, "The Fungus Link, Volume 2." Inside this follow-up to the Fungus Link, published in 2000, you'll not only learn about the dangers of antibiotics. You'll also learn about the ins and outs of natural and prescriptive antifungals. Additionally, Doug and Dave share with you the role fungi and their mycotoxins play in what are unfortunately everyday diseases such as prostatitis, ear-nose-throat disorders, weight problems (including obesity and anorexia), autoimmune diseases, hormonal disorders, neurologic diseases, hair loss, and eye problems. "It is ironic that this humbled fungus, hailed as a benefactor of mankind, may by its very success prove to be a deciding factor in the decline of the present civilization."Simply put, antibiotics are poisons that are used to kill. Only licensed physicians can prescribe them. The drugs are used to kill bacteria. Certainly, many people have benefited from using them. However, if bacteria were the only organisms that antibiotics killed, much of this book would be unnecessary. In fact, I contend that poisons that kill small organisms in small doses -- organism-specific varieties notwithstanding -- can also kill big organisms, when they are taken in big doses. You, my friend, are a big organism.We've talked about the link between fungus and human disease. This chapter addresses the possibility that antibiotics may help fungi to proliferate within the human body.As an adult human, you have three to four pounds of beneficial bacteria and yeast living within your intestines. These microbes compete for nutrients from the food you eat. Usually, the strength in numbers beneficial bacteria enjoy both keeps the ever-present yeasts in check and causes them to produce nutrients such as the B vitamins. However, every time you swallow antibiotics, you kill the beneficial bacteria within your intestines. When you do so, you upset the delicate balance of your intestinal terrain. Yeasts grow unchecked into large colonies and take over, in a condition called dysbiosis.Yeasts are opportunistic organisms. This means that, as the intestinal bacteria die, yeasts thrive, especially when their dietary needs are met. They can use their tendrils, or hyphae, to literally poke holes through the lining of your intestinal wall. This results in a syndrome called leaky gut. Yeasts are not the only possible cause of this syndrome. Some scientists have linked non-steroidal, anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDS) such as naproxen and ibuprofen to the problem. Given their ability to alter intestinal terrain, antibiotics also likely contribute to leaky gut syndrome.In addition to possibly causing leaky gut syndrome, I believe that parasitic yeasts can also cause you to change what you eat in that they encourage you to binge on carbohydrates including pasta, bread, sugar, potatoes, etc. So, it should come as no surprise that weight gain counts as one of the telltale signs of antibiotic damage and subsequent yeast overgrowth.By altering the normal terrain of the intestines, antibiotics can also make food allergies more likely. An array of intestinal disorders can ensue, as well. Sadly, most doctors claim ignorance concerning their patients' intestinal disorders rather than admit that the drugs they themselves prescribed actually caused the disorders to begin with.Tons of antibiotics are fed to American livestock on a daily basis, purportedly to proof them against bacteria. This practice not only possibly contributes to antibiotic resistance in humans -- many experts feel weight gain, and not disease prevention, is the real reason antibiotics are so widely used. Fat cattle sell for more than thin cattle. That's all very well, but imagine what the antibiotics thereby possibly present in dairy products could be doing to our children's health.Back in the 1950s, two researchers in Albany, New York, worked to develop an antimicrobial drug from a substance produced by a soil-based fungus. Although the nystatin they discovered is technically a mycotoxin, it works wonders an intestinal antifungal. This as yet revolutionary drug stops the yeast overgrowth caused by all other antibiotics and is 100 percent safe to use. In addition, nystatin works with no side effects, though it can cause a pseudo sickness that patients often confuse with side effects. Also in the 1950s, scientists used mice to grade the relative toxicity of 340 antibiotics (Dr. William S. Spector, The Handbook of Toxicity, 1957). The researchers based their rankings on the amount of a given antibiotic required to kill half of the lab mice injected with it. I relate this story only to ask you, before 1957, how did scientists decide what would serve as prescriptive doses for these very same antibiotics when used in humans?I'll assume that the same toxicity scale remains in place today. If it does, and if a given dose of penicillin will kill 50 percent of mice injected, it stands to reason that a much larger dose, or perhaps repetitive doses extended over 40 years, might prove fatal to a human. I don't know if larger doses are in fact administered to people. And, the 40-year scenario has its problems. But you have to admit, it's certainly food for thought.The time span between when patients take rounds of antibiotics and when they die interests me. That's because I believe that few people really die of heart disease and diabetes. In actuality, antibiotics are responsible for deaths attributed to these diseases, because these drugs are what caused people to develop the diseases to begin with. And yet, incredibly, death certificates usually state the probable cause of death without mentioning whether the deceased had a history of taking antibiotics. Remember, antibiotics are dangerous mycotoxins -- fungal metabolites. Just as importantly, medical experts have written articles maintaining that these drugs kill people. But, other experts insist on remaining sceptical as to the problem, even though these same experts readily recognize the link between weakened immune systems and death. According to the 2001 Allergy and Asthma Report, the first immunodeficiency syndrome was identified in 1952. This document tells us that since that time, "more than 95 immune syndromes have been identified, with new conditions coming to light every day." The report goes on to say that research indicates that "increased antibiotic use in human infancy may be associated with increased risk of developing allergies."Max Planck won the 1918 Nobel Prize in Physics. He once weighed in as to why science is slow to change even in the presence of overwhelming evidence that it should do so. "A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light," Planck said, "but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with the ideas from the beginning."That a new generation will grow up knowing of the dangers inherent in taking antibiotics is a good thing. That doctors will continue randomly prescribing fungal toxins should teach us the importance of knowing medical facts before blindly accepting any prescription. Please study the antimicrobial benefits and the immune system stimulants that nature provides. Know also that, in some instances, antibiotics may become necessary. If you reach the point where no alternatives exist, I recommend that you ask your doctor to prescribe nystatin simultaneously with the antibiotic (see Dr. Holland's article). Also, keep in mind the post-antibiotic importance of restoring the intestinal terrain with plain yogurt and probiotics. If you experience bloating, belching, gas, constipation, diarrhea, GERD, or other intestinal problems, probiotics can play an important role in restoring your intestinal terrain.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Its pretty well known about taking probiotics for gut flora, not killing them unless there is a specific pathogen diagnosed, but adding good to kill the bad in IBS. However, probiotics have shown good results in IBD, they have not shown as good in IBS. Positive yes, major no.However.Bacteria: More Than PathogensBy Trudy M. Wassenaar, Ph.D. Bacteria are usually associated with dirt, disease, and death. Misunderstood bacteria Bacteria suffer from negative public relations. You probably associate bacteria with the three D's: dirt, disease and death. And indeed, for centuries bacterial infections were the major cause of infant and child mortality worldwide. Child mortality began to decline after people were educated about better hygiene. The decline continued with the introduction of antibiotics for better treatment and vaccination for prevention of common deadly diseases.Bacteria are certainly involved in dirt, disease and death, to which we should add decay. Spoilage of leftover food, decomposition of garden cuttings, decay of dead bodies, or smelly water in a forgotten vase, are all the result of bacterial activity. As is body odor, caries, strep throat, or bubonic plague, to name a few diseases from both ends of the spectrum. No wonder that bacteria receive a bad press. Bacteria that caused large-scale disease in our history may be close to extinction. Commercials want us to believe that the only good bacterium is a dead bacterium. Antimicrobial agents are added to tooth paste, soaps, detergents, and plastics. There is no Society for the Protection of Bacteria, although there is a satirical initiative for the Ethical Treatment of Bacteria.1 Some bacteria may even hover on the edge of extinction, and it is no coincidence that these are pathogenic disease-causing bacteria such as Salmonella typhi the cause of typhoid fever or Yersinia pestis the cause of plague. Fortunately for the little critters, populations survive in remote areas where they are not efficiently hunted with vaccines and antimicrobials, and people are still at risk for the diseases they cause in these places. The bacterial kingdom It is about time we take a closer look at the Bacterial Kingdom, with capitals. For a Kingdom it is, biologically speaking, and the ancient lineage, diversity, and evolutionary power of its inhabitants deserve royal treatment rather than disgust. A bacterium differs from a virus in its structure and in the way it inhabits a host. Before kindling fascination for the world of bacteria, a common misconception must be cleared: bacteria are not viruses. Whereas most bacteria live as independent cells with a membrane to separate them from the outside world, viruses can only multiply inside, and to the detriment of, the cells they infect. Interestingly, some viruses, called bacteriophages, have specialized to infect bacteria.2,3 Viruses consist only of genetic material DNA or RNA surrounded by a protein shell. They cannot metabolize and once inside a host cell, their genetic material hijacks the cell's machinery to produce replicas of the virus. Bacteria are much more similar to you and me. They exhibit the basic characteristics of all living things -- they breathe, metabolize, produce waste, and maintain a membrane potential. However, they do not have a nucleus in which their DNA is separated from the rest of the cell, as plants and animals do, and that is the major distinction between prokaryotes a type of cell that most microorganisms are made of, including all bacteria and eukaryotes a different type of cell making up nucleated microorganisms, such as yeasts, or cells in an organism, e.g., human. Both viruses and bacteria can cause disease. However, not all types of viruses cause disease in humans, and not all bacteria cause disease. The majority of bacteria are harmless and some are beneficial. Another common misconception is that all bacteria are bad for you. Some bacteria you'd better not meet, but the majority of them are completely harmless, and some are highly beneficial to us. Confusingly, certain bacteria can be beneficial to some animals, and pathogenic to others. More commonly, pathogenic bacteria are harmful only to a limited number of hosts, or even only to one, whereas they live happily within other hosts without causing trouble. If the suffering host happens to be human, the culprit bacteria are called human pathogens; however, from the bacterial point of view, humans are just the wrong host to be in. So who is to blame for the disease? Harmless bacteria can become deadly in certain circumstances. Most bacteria are completely harmless Although a tree can kill a person when it falls, we usually don't regard trees as harmful. The same is true for most bacteria -- although they may cause problems under specific conditions, they usually live their lives without interfering with ours. An example is Pseudomonas aeruginosa, which commonly lives in soil without doing harm. However, if it is inhaled by a person with Cystic Fibrosis, it can colonize their lungs and cause lethal infections.4 The human body is not the natural environment for many bacteria. For many bacteria, the human body is not the right place to live in at all. They couldn't cope with the lack of oxygen inside our cells the oxygen concentration is lower than that of air or with the presence of oxygen for bacteria that live in oxygen-deprived environments, oxygen is toxic. They couldn't withstand our defense mechanisms such as the salt present on our skin and in our tears, the lack of iron a smart device keeps iron, a vital element to all living organisms, inaccessible to most microorganisms in our body, or with the toxic radicals that cells release when under attack of bacteria. It could be too warm for them, or too cold, as certain bacteria have specific temperature requirements to grow. Or they could be deprived of food, as the members of the Bacterial Kingdom have specialized to live on almost anything, but each species has specific nutrient needs. In conclusion, we have little to fear from most bacteria that we encounter. Our bodies can resist most bacterial attacks. It is no big surprise that we are relatively inert to bacteria. After all, mammals have evolved in the presence of bacteria, and have developed specialized strategies to keep bacteria under control. In contrast to what your mother taught you, soap is not essential to survive. Our body can resist the bombardment of bacteria it receives every day quite efficiently. Just as well that we can't see them for the idea is unpleasant but with every breath of air, every bite we take, little bugs are unknowingly entering our body. And this shouldn't worry you in the least. As long as you keep the troublemakers -- the real pathogens -- out. The human body is home to millions of beneficial bacteria. We couldn't live without bacteria We house millions of bacteria on our skin and in our nose, mouth, and gut:up to 500 species can be found as normal oral flora5 there can easily be 25 species living in a single mouth a milliliter of saliva can contain as many as 40 million 4 x 107 bacterial cells6 108 bacterial cells present in the cecum the initial part of the colon per milliliter of content is normal and many of these species are different from those found in the mouth7 Strictly speaking, the inside of our mouth, stomach and intestines are part of our outer surfaces. Although they are inside our body, their surfaces are in direct contact with the outside world, and as food particles pass the mucosal inner lining of our intestines, hitchhiking bacteria can stay there and multiply. We are born sterile (free of bacteria) but within hours we are colonized by our little friends, not to be left alone again. Antibiotics can wipe out our body's beneficial bacteria, causing unwanted health consequences. Without bacteria we would not survive. They help us digest our food, produce vitamins, and occupy niches that would otherwise be available for competing pathogens. This competitive effect becomes apparent when we wipe out a large proportion of our intestinal flora, for instance by an antibiotic that is prescribed to treat a bacterial infection. Diarrhea is frequently the unwanted result, as 'foreign' bacteria take their chance to occupy the 'empty' niches. Healthy bacteria take over in time, so that in most cases the side effects of antibiotics are soon gone. Bacterial populations grow into a state of equilibrium until some external factor disturbs it again. Certain foods and the way we process food depend on bacteria. We can buy supplements or foods with beneficial bacteria. Certain bacteria are good for you For centuries, people have eaten certain food deliberately for the bacteria it contains and have used bacteria in food preparation.The best-known example is the consumption of yogurt and other fermented milk products, which have the combined effect of reducing spoilage, and enhancing tolerance for partially lactose-intolerant individuals. A major industry has developed to produce bacterial preparations, in the form of powders, drinks, and dairy products; all sold as healthy and beneficial and sometimes tasty supplements. Although some of their promises are unrealistic some products don't even contain viable bacteria, it is generally accepted that certain bacteria are beneficial, especially when intestinal flora is unbalanced as with antibiotic-associated diarrhea. The most commonly used bacterial species as so-called probiotics are lactobacilli and bifidobacterium.8 A number of bacterial species are required for the preparation of food, and may or may not arrive on our plate alive.9 Notably, many cheese varieties are dependent on their characteristic bacterial starter culture. Fermenting bacteria are required to produce sausages and sauerkraut; they even help cacao and coffee beans to attain their desired flavor.10 Conclusion: Bacteria are essential to human health and the world's ecosystems. Earth: the planet of bacteria In a gram of soil, approximately 108 bacteria are present11 and these are estimated to represent over 10,000 species. Interestingly, there are more than 1030 bacteria on earth, compared with fewer than 1010 humans.12 Bacteria were the first living organisms found on Earth. They inhabit deserts, ice caps, oceans and hot springs. The number of bacterial species worldwide is estimated to be more than a thousand million.11 Their individual sizes may be insignificant, but their number and diversity is unimaginably large. Bacteria contribute substantially to the total biomass in marine environments.13 And, since oceans cover 70% of our planet's surface, bacteria make up a significant part of the total biomass on Earth. These facts are truly impressive for organisms so small that they are invisible to the eye. It is to our advantage to look at bacteria as more than just pathogens. ï¿½ 2002, BioScience Productions, Inc., an organization promoting bioscience literacy. Educators have permission to reprint articles for classroom use; other users, please contact editor for reprint permission. See reprint policy. About the author: Trudy Wassenaar, Ph.D., is a molecular biologist specializing in microbiology. She has done research at the University of Amsterdam and the University of Utrecht The Netherlands, as well as at the University of Mainz Germany, for over 15 years. In 2000, she founded a consulting company to assist research groups in academia and governmental agencies with the development of research strategies and dissemination of results. She is Curator of the Virtual Museum of Bacteria supported by the Foundation for Bacteriology. http://www.bacteriamuseum.org/homepageTW.shtml How we fight bacteria: our immune system vs bacteria http://www.bacteriamuseum.org/niches/hwfba...unesystem.shtml


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

You know you on the yeast side are all claiming that the theory of yeast can't be proved or disproved. It is the same as saying







Or were you referring to the time when kel changed her username to flux?. kel see what you did now.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Now that I have had my fun for the day, let's see if I can address some of the points David raised.


> quote: Bonniei,Kel doesn't *know*or claim to have all the answers of how over-growth's of yeast, bacteria, and parasites can cause digestive symtoms.


You are right there. I will not argue with that









> quote:She's strictly going with a theory that many people in the medical community believe in. Believe it or not


Can you put a number on this? You might be surprised that not many believe it.


> quote:Believe it or not..


I believe you are including naturopaths in this account. I do!


> quote:Most people on this board have tried or are currently doing: enzymes, probiotics, garlic and other supplements.


Please don't lump probiotics in with this group.If an idea is good the mainstream community picks up on it. There have been nmany good papers written on probiotics. And as to why they help- because they are the non gas producing bacteria which thwart the gas prodcing ones


> quote:These supplements that people on this board are taking..are exactly the SAME as what Alternative Drs and some Conventional Drs. are telling their patients to take for Candida/Bacteria overgrowths!!!


So? Your point being?


> quote:There is mountains of evidence..unfortuanately, mostly small studies that have been done that has shown the relationship why these over-growth's can cause symtoms.


Even the authors of these small scale studies are anbivalent about yeast. Why shouldn't we be?


> quote:The main reason is that many patients find relief, and share it!!


So just because their multifaceted approach works it doesn't mean it is because of yeast. Sorry you haven't convinced me. When there is not a sinfgle credible test for yeast there is no basis for talking abouit it. Like I said it is a religion with you and perhaps you should gather every Sunday for it. A world widwe gathering of yeast folks with the Dummies Guide for the Candida God by Kel as Bible.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: There is absoulutely no research bacteria or fungal organisms have anything to do with IBS, zip none!!!!!!


(as we step into the time machine --- and enter spring 1991) "furthermore, there is NO evidence whatsoever that there is any bacteria present in the stomach that could cause ulcers. We are WORKING on these things!!! we already know so much about it. We know that STRESS is the culprit NOT H. Pylori. ----now quit scaring people.**************************************************************************(time machine ---- 2003) (".....well, i guess there was plenty of evidence of the h. pylori issue, but me and the boys were so convinced that it was a hoax that we failed to read even a shred of the evidence or to even question whether or not there was some truth to it". yes, eric, there was plenty of evidence. all it takes is a willingness to examine the tartar sauce -- err --- i mean evidence.)**********(concerning IBS and bacteria/yeast -- 2003) "....we are working on these things (IBS) --- there is NO evidence that bacterial toxins or fungal toxins are causing some of the symptoms of IBS in some of the people. Our scientists would have proven it by now. the reason that they have not is because there is NO evidence." *****************************************************************************eric, there is a mountain of circumstantial evidence that some type of dysbiosis is involved in SOME of the cases of IBS.IBS is very complex and it has its roots in many issues therefore it would be impossible to conclusively prove that the eradication of a single organism is the responsible party. experiments would fail for all the reasons that davidla has mentioned plus a few additional ones. the issue is much more complicated than just a single organism. everyone with IBS has something unique about them that would be certain to bring mixed results to the study. Plus, a lot of people don't even have a fungal hypersensitivity or issue...


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: Immune system cytokines released in the periphery during inflammation act as hormones, mediating a variety of changes in brain function, including sickness behaviors, sleep, fever and activation of the hormonal stress response. Thus, cytokines stimulate the hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis


ahhhh! more evidence from Dr Esther Sternberg that when the immune system is activated in the intestines it can have a profound affect on the brain.she listed bacterial toxins and viruses as 2 of several things that can cause altered hormone (prostaglandin) release in the brain. (a prostaglandin is a hormone)the evidence mounts.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

FYIThe majority of patients with irritable bowel syndrome IBS associate stressful life events with the initiation or exacerbation of their symptoms. Emerging evidence suggests that this association may be due to an alteration in the way the brain communicates with the gut during periods of prolonged or severe life stresses. While stress and stress related symptoms have long been regarded as a domain of psychology, tremendous progress has been made in our understanding of the biological processes that mediate the body's response to stress. The brain network which plays a central role in the stress response is the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal cortex HPA axis which produces the hormone cortisol. The HPA axis interacts with other brain areas which are concerned with the responses to pain and in the autonomic nervous system function of the bowel during stress. There is a growing body of evidence that suggests that altered HPA responses in IBS and other chronic pain syndromes, such as fibromyalgia, play a role in the body's increased sensitivity to painful and non-painful stimuli resulting in chronic pain and other symptoms of discomfort and distress. Activation of the HPA axis in response to stress leads normally to a coordinated series of adaptive physiologic and behavioral changes which attempt to maintain and restore our body's homeostasis in a state of equilibrium. In the setting of stress, adaptive behaviors such as increased arousal, vigilance, focused attention, and alertness occur. Altered function of the HPA axis in response to stress may play a primary role in behavioral abnormalities such as fatigue, lack of motivation, abnormal sleep and appetite, which are commonly seen in patients with functional bowel disease, such as IBS. In our patient database of functional bowel disease, 71% reported frequent tiredness and fatigue and the two-thirds reported sleep disturbances. These symptoms in turn play an important role in the impact of IBS on quality of life.Stress responses involving the HPA axis are mediated by the release of corticotropin releasing hormone CRH from a brain region called the hypothalamus. Stressful events activate the HPA axis which result in the eventual release of CRH which then results in release of adrenocorticotropin hormone ACTH from the pituitary gland. ACTH then acts on the adrenal cortex causing it to release cortisol into the bloodstream. Cortisol and ACTH are secreted in a specific rhythm over the course of 24 hours each day, and both reach their highest levels in the early morning and their lowest in the late afternoon and evening. The cortisol peaks correlate with the state of greatest alertness and energy in the majority of healthy people. Cortisol can be measured in the blood and urine. Regulation of the HPA axis has not been studied well in IBS. We have preliminary evidence which suggests that IBS patients have blunted or decreased levels of cortisol in response to a stressor such as balloon distension of the lower colon and rectum. There is also evidence that IBS and fibromyalgia patients have lower baseline levels of 24-hour urine cortisol. In order to learn more about how stress may play a role in chronic pain disorders, the UCLA Neuroenteric Disease Program has several ongoing studies in IBS, fibromyalgia and gastroesophageal reflux disease GERD. There is a study measuring ACTH and cortisol levels in the blood over a 24-hour period in patients with IBS and/or fibromyalgia, and healthy individuals. In addition, we are studying how stress may affect the perception of signals originating from the intestine. We are completing another study which has examined the relation of stressful life events and increase in heartburn symptoms in patients with GERD.In summary, alterations in the HPA axis in patients with chronic pain syndromes such as IBS or fibromyalgia may play a role both in the inadequate activation of the body's own pain inhibition systems including the "endorophin system", resulting in bowel and/or muscle hypersensitivity. A better understanding of the way the body responds to stress via the HPA axis will therefore help in the development of novel therapies for these common conditions. http://ibs.med.ucla.edu/Articles/PatientAr...teredStress.htm


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

eric, is this a sneaky way to divert the topic of bacteria over to stress? stress is your pet topic. stress does seem to aggravate everything but it does not cause IBS. you pound away on stress (and it is appreciated) on dozens of other threads.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

As far as the diversion of topics is concerned all I can say is eric must have learnt from the master herself.


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## california123 (Jun 8, 2003)

Having read through this thread, I'm beginning to wonder if there is a direct link between the excessive use of !!!!!!! marks, ????????? marks and CAPITAL LETTERS and severe IBS symptoms. I don't know, but when I see all those !!!!!!!!, ??????? and KAJD DLSTDLKSU YDYSDSKDSHDKLDLH, it makes me feel the person posting must be under a lot of stress. Take care all.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: , it doesn't show up in blood work as a high white cell count fighting infection


(unbelievable!!!)eric,all your questions just prove that you know nothing about this issue. the infection question highlights this fact.i don't feel like wasting my time educating you because you never read anything other than your pet theory (your pet theory is valid but it never explains the cause of anything)there is a very good reason -- actually several-- as to why the body is NOT at war against these organisms, also, your Mayo Clinic study clearly illustrates a couple of things. 1. they are difficult to culture 2. the immune system is reacting to the organisms in a non-allergic manner ---more specifically it is an immune response such as elevated eosinophils.i think your problem is that you trust and think that medicine is much more advanced than it really is.the H. Pylori fiasco should have clued you in to just how lacking and slow they are to discover these kinds of things.by the way, i am not saying that fungal organisms are the sole cause of all symptoms. however, there is substantial evidence that it contributes to the malfunction of the body --- in some people. toxins from bacteria and fungal organisms can affect nervous system function and immune function.


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## shirlchris (Nov 6, 2003)

I get the impression that most of you (especially Eric, Bonnie and Flux)are trying to make us believe that you know MUCH more than the rest of us and yours is the only right way.I've tried the Medical way with no results, so now I'm doing the alternative route, and am doing much better, so I will continue.I'm a new member here, and am very disillusioned with this board, so goodbye everyone. I pray you all get well and live happily ever after.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Sadly we are not religious.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Its not a diversion, its that the HPA axis is invovled in fighting infection and stress.Its using a more holistic approach looking at the big picture. Its thinking outside the box.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

LOL eric , you are getting funnier by the day.








Since kel doesnot know how to post pics I will post one on her behalf


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

I always love the "outside the box" etc arguement when it comes to IBS.So much of the Dr. Drossman et al. approach is "outside the box" compared to how medicine has tradionally looked at IBS (and some of the alternative approaches are much close to "in the old box")I suppose Dr. Drossman would play much better to the public sometimes if he had given up publishing in reputable medical journals and getting grants, etc. and just wrote up his reasearch in books designed for the lay public. I know some of the problems with IBS and the "mainstream medical community" IS that the approaches done in the research of the last 10 years are still so far out of the box that most medical doctors do not even consider them. Although now there are some IBS-specific drugs I think at least a few people are willing to go beyond "you don't eat enough fiber and that is the ONLY thing that is wrong with you" (this is the "box" most of medicine has been in for the last couple of decades...the whole brain-gut axis is in many ways "out of the box"







...which funny enough IS the box some alt. med types use for treating IBS although with a slightly different spin---usually it is you have to take this right fiber to clean the 35 pounds of material trapped in your colon....but some of it still comes off as "eat more fiber and less junk and you will be 100% better and never have a GI symptom again in your life....The thing is I would think the Candida thing woulda run its "out of the box" status and things would have moved on beyond it. After all I first heard about it back during the "hypoglycemia" craze...and hardly anyone gets told that is their problem anymore (although a lot of the diet recommendations are the same).K.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: After all I first heard about it back during the "hypoglycemia" craze...and hardly anyone gets told that is their problem anymore


no doctor ever told me that i had it. i knew based on how rubbery my legs felt and by the rapid swings in my blood sugar. after eating sugar i would sometimes have a very bad plunge a few hours later.the interesting thing is that once i quit eating wheat the swings leveled off quite a bit.i suspect that some of us could be experiencing some type of endocrine gland problem due to severe food intolerances.***************************************************************************based on the sinusitis information which is relatively current research, i think that the medical establishment will be focusing more on how certain people due to a ***** in their immune system can possibly be affected by certain fungal organisms.i think that the solution will not necessarily come from eliminating the organisms (but if there is an overgrowth then it is necessary to reduce them), but in correcting the immune function so that the immune system will support beneficial bacteria and will also help to make fungal organisms less likely to flourish in the body. --- and less likely to cause the body to react in a stange immune-related manner.


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## missC (Oct 16, 2002)

". I know what science is about and how it works. From your post eric and flux it is clear you do not. "ehh ehehehh hehehe eheheh hehehHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHHEHEHEHEHEHE!


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## floridian2 (Dec 1, 2003)

I thought Eric's post was quite reasonable. The HPA axis is important, and is involved in panic, IBS, cluster headaches, and other conditions that I have. These conditions interact with each other. There is a connection between the gut and the brain. And it works both ways - stress and abberant neural signals can make the gut go haywire, and gut diseases can affect nutrition, neurotramsitters, and the brain. I don't think that the HPA is THE cause in all cases, but it plays an important role for many people. Many people report good results with anti-anxiety meds. I am not saying its all in the nervous system, but those classes of meds might be able to break a downward spiral and allow some balance to be restored.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: The gut is, in fact, a major immune organ, containing more immune cells than the rest of the body combined. The enteric nervous system interacts intimately with the immune system, and can affect mood and behavior by signaling the central nervous system.


Eric,i'll be the first to admit that you post some excellent information. *Often times i am able to use your information against you and your narrow belief system.* one example would be Dr esther sternberg and her claims that things like bacterial toxins and viruses can disturb the functioning of the brain.for people who suffer from panic and anxiety disorders this is something that needs to be explored. panic and anxiety can be induced by a number of chemicals. by the same token, it can also be the result of early conditioning (social, etc). once again, these things are complicated and everyone is different.i really wish that CBT and hypnotherapy would have worked for me. this is the approach that i originally took and it led me nowhere. However, i do think that hypnotherapy is a very valid treatment option and i think that now that i have the bulk of my problems under control -- it could provide some additional relief.*****************************************************************just because you may not suffer from food intolerances or a bacterial or fungal problem does not mean that everyone is exactly like you.just a short while ago you engaged MNL in several debates --- it is almost like you are denying that foods can provoke the immune system despite all the evidence otherwise.to disagree with MNL --- a man who is far more schooled than you-- is nonsense. he knows what he is talking about. i think it just shows that you are INTOLERANT to anyone's viewpoint other than your own. what works for you does not work for everyone. we are all different.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

let's see if this is how it is done....







(edit ----- there i did it! --- i posted my first and last picture ) (however, i suspect that when flux does it it slows down peoples' computers. i think that is why he does it.) (however, a funny cartoon may be worth an extra few seconds. i like animal humor like the Far Side from gary larsen)****************************************************************************while i am here i might as well make a comment about something. let me see...... hmmmmm.okay ---- my opinion of the intestinal dysbiosis issue is that it can happen to us for a variety of reasons. i think that antibiotics can seriously disturb our gut flora. i think that not breastfeeding infants can also cause a "less than" normal intestinal flora. i think that the typical western diet of high sugar, high processed carbs, low omega 3 fatty acids, ---combined with many other factors such as extreme stress and other abuses that we heap upon our bodies ---- ex. alcohol, cigarettes, crack,.... can all work to breakdown the body's ability to properly defend itself. i also suspect that a number of people are reacting to very common foods like wheat, corn, dairy, etc....when all these factors come together, then it is no wonder that we develop various GI disorders ---- and it is no wonder that a scientist has not come up with a perfect pill that solves all of our troubles ---- or has designed the perfect study where 1000 IBSers take an antifungal drug and then in 3 weeks they are PERFECT.it does not happen because it is absurd to think that such a thing could happen. (however, there could be some people --- such as Meckle --- who do improve greatly on a program that specifically addresses fungal issues. although even meckle has taken a long time to get a handle on things.i improved greatly on antifungal drugs but the improvement was very dicey for me. many strange things were still going on with me and that is why i have been forced to address bacterial issues and also the use of Ibsacol which has made the biggest difference for me out of anything. although, it seems that the Ibsacol is useless unless i do a few other things perfectly such as strict oligoantigenic diet, herbal antibiotics....


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

FYIIrritable Bowel Syndrome:How Far Do You Go in the Workup?"There is evidence that IBS is a heterogeneous disorder in which different physiologic sub groups contribute to the clinical expression of the syndrome. For example, there is a subgroup of patients, called "post-infectious IBS' who appear to respond to an enteric infection such as cawpylobactor jejuni with an increased inflammatory cell response.22 This is associated with activating enterochromaffin cells to produce 5HT, and CD3 cells to produce cytokines, which in turn leads to enhanced motility and lowered visceral sensation thresholds.22,23 *But microscopic inflammation cannot be a diagnostic marker for IBS because it does nor typically produce pain in those who have it. * All patients with active celiac disease have microscopic inflammation, but a large proportion do not have abdominal pain, and patients with ulcerative colitis who also have microscopic inflammation when compared with patients with IBS seem to have higher pain thresholds.24 In individuals with these disorders, there may be central nervous system counter-regulatory measures responding to the peripheral pain/inflammatory processes that increase pain thresholds.With regard to IBS, the gut-related effects of microscopic inflammation may be only one component of a dysfunctional brain-gut system. In addition, and often in response to stress, there may be a failure to activate pain inhibition systems that lead to the perception of pain and produce other symptoms that typify this disorder.25 In one prospective study of postinfectious IBS, it was found that those who retained their symptoms 3 months after an enteric infection had not only increased inflammation in the intestinal lining, but also had increased psychosocial distress at the time of the infection. Furthermore, lowered visceral pain thresholds and increased motility were present after the infection regardless of whether or not the patients retained their symptoms.26 Therefore, the microscopic inflammation and its physiologic effects on motility and sensation contribute to, but are not always sufficient for, the clinical expression of IBS pain. At least for postinfectious IBS, this provides some evidence that psychologic distress alters brain pain regulatory pathways to amplify incoming visceral signals leading to the full clinical expression of this syndrome.27,28 Recent studies using brain imaging29,30 may help us to understand the physiologic mechanisms that modulate these central nervous system responses to pain, and in the process, identify the subgroup with IBS that are more amenable to psychologic and psychopharmacological treatments.As we continue to develop the means to assess the pathophysiological determinants of IBS symptoms, we will identify subgroups that will change our diagnostic assessment. This may even lead us to redefine what we mean by IBS. Postinfectious IBS and patients having concurrent psychosocial disturbances among others to be determined characterize subgroups that will be more responsive to more specific treatments. For the present, we must still make a diagnosis of IBS based on established guidelines, including symptom-based e.g., Rome criteria. We must also remain vigilant to identifying other relevant disorders like celiac disease that may mimic or exacerbate IBS, and will use clinical judgment e.g., ordering anti-endomysial antibodies for patients with predominant diarrhea, rather than routinely ordering tests in all IBS patients just to exclude other disease. With careful appraisal of the historical and laboratory data and good clinical judgment, a positive diagnosis of IBS can be made in a cost-effective manner and with confidence." http://www.med.unc.edu/medicine/fgidc/how_..._the_workup.htm


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

FYIEsophageal Candidiasis Common in Patients Treated With Fluticasone PropionateNEW YORK Reuters Health Nov 24 - Patients treated with inhaled corticosteroids often develop esophageal candidiasis, according to results of a study published in the October issue of the American Journal of Gastroenterology.Dr. Tsutomu Chiba, of Kyoto University Graduate School of Medicine, in Japan, and colleagues examined the prevalence of esophageal candidiasis among 49 patients treated with fluticasone propionate, an inhaled corticosteroid. All of the subjects underwent upper GI endoscopy.Of the 49 patients, 36 had bronchial asthma and 13 had chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. The researchers also examined upper GI endoscopy findings for 700 control patients without malignancy or immunosuppression.Esophageal candidiasis was detected in 18 of 49 patients treated with inhaled fluticasone propionate, including 13 patients with asthma and 5 patients with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Only two 0.3% of the 700 control subjects had esophageal candidiasis.Patients with diabetes mellitus and those who were treated with a high dose of inhaled fluticasone propionate had an especially high prevalence of esophageal candidiasis. When the daily dose of inhaled fluticasone propionate was reduced, the infection was eliminated in four of five patients. The fifth patient had severe diabetes mellitus."Whether this high prevalence of esophageal candidiasis can affect the clinical course or prognosis of the patients with asthma or chronic obstructive pulmonary disease needs to be clarified in future studies," Dr. Chiba and colleagues note.Am J Gastroenterol 2003;98:2146-2148.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

If chronic yeast infection is present, treatment is essential for recovery. Dr. Carol Jessop, Assistant Professor of Medicine at The University of California, treated 900 of her CFIDS patients with a strong anti-yeast drug known as ketoconazole, and a sugar free diet. Results were impressive. Eighty four percent recovered to a level at which they could remain working 30 to 40 hours a week. Of those, almost 30 percent still had a reoccurrence of their symptoms with infections, surgery or other stressors. Thirty percent fully recovered to their previous level of health. Dr. Jessop found that 80 percent of her CFIDS patients gave a history of recurrent antibiotic use. Also, most of her patients had a history of serious sugar addiction. Eighty percent of her patients had recurrent ear, nose and throat infections as children, acne and recurrent hives as adolescents, anxiety attacks, headaches and bowel problems, and had to stop drinking because it didn't agree with them. Dr. Jessop's current treatment of choice is fluconazole, 100mg daily combined with some form of grapefruit seed extract.Dr. Carol Jessop reported that the majority of their patients with CFS responded favorably to a comprehensive program which included a sugar-free special diet and antifungal medications including Nystatin, Nizoral and Diflucan.In some individuals with CFS, the illness develops suddenly following an acute epidemic viral infection similar to the one that occurred in Incline Village, Nevada in 1984 or the Los Angeles Hospital in 1930. Yet the observations of Carol Jessop, a leading CFS clinician and researcher, show that this disorder often develops insidiously -- especially in individuals who give a history of: Repeated courses of antibiotic drugs in childhood, adolescence or adult years  Recurrent vaginal yeast infections  Diets loaded with sugar and alcohol Like AIDS patients, CFS patients can develop yeast infections in their mouths and throats, called "thrush." That localized overgrowth of a type of yeast that lives normally in people's gastrointestinal systems, called Candida albicans, can spread from the mouth into the rest of the gastrointestinal system in CFS patients, as it does in AIDS patients, if the immune system is depressed severely enough to allow the overgrowth to occur. * Actually, for many people, a yeast infection or a lack of the friendly bacteria can be established the moment you are born. Both friendly and unfriendly microorganisms are picked up at birth as a newborn baby passes through the birth canal of its mother. * If the mother is not adequately supplied with the friendly flora, her baby will also be lacking. If she should happen to have a yeast infection anywhere in her body, then the Candida or a predisposition to a yeast infection can be transferred at birth to the baby. * If the child is not breast-fed (mother's milk contains and supports the friendly flora to help the baby), Candida will begin to grow slowly throughout life. When you consider all the white flour and sugary candy children eat, you begin to wonder how we survive. This is how and when many adults created the foundation for a yeast problem. *****************************************************************************************************Candida albicans is a dimorphic fungus that grows at 37oC. * Its normal habitat is the mucosal membranes of humans * and other warm-blooded animals, where it grows as a yeast (Fig. C) and causes little or no damage. In fact, it can be isolated from the mucosa of up to 50% of humans - from the mouth, the gut, the vagina or, less often, from the surface of the skin. In some circumstances, however, the same strains of C. albicans that grow as harmless commensals can become pathogenic * , invading the mucosa and causing significant damage. This usually happens when a variety of predisposing factors cause the yeast population to multiply, escaping the normal competition from resident bacteria which keep the yeast population in check. * Then the yeast cells sprout a hyphal outgrowth (Fig. D) which locally penetrates the mucosal membrane, causing irritation and shedding of the tissues.One of the best examples of this is the disease termed thrush - a white speckling of the tongue and the back of the throat, resembling the speckling on the bird's chest. This is common in newborn babies, perhaps resulting from passage through an infected birth canal. It is also common in AIDS patients and people who have had a prolonged course of antibacterial therapy, reducing the normal resident bacterial population.C. albicans also causes vaginitis - inflammation and invasion of the vaginal mucosa, especially during the third trimester of pregnancy and in women who take the pill. The predisposing factors seem to be hormonal, associated with changes in the balance of cell types in the lining epithelium of the vagina. A similar condition termed stomatitis is common in people who wear dentures. Candida can adhere to denture resin, and high sugar levels in the diet can also increase the adhesion by enhancing the production of a mannoprotein adhesive on the yeast cell surface. Systemic candidosis is a more serious condition, when yeast cells proliferate in the circulatory system. **************************************************************************************************Ron Kennedy, M.D., Santa Rosa, California The Yeast Syndrome, also known as chronic candidiasis, the chronic candida syndrome, and candida related complex is still unaccepted by some medical doctors. The habit of the medical establishment, in general, is to not accept as real any symptom complex which they do not understand. The effects of chronic yeast infestation in the intestine are so widespread in the body that it does not at first seem logical that one thing could cause all this. Many a patient have been branded hypochondriac, malingering, neurotic, and hysteric who appeared in doctors' offices with this complex, confusing symptomatology. One of the symptoms is irritability and this quality has tended to alienate doctors, leaving both doctor and patient frustrated. Also, doctors are accustomed to think that if routine blood tests show nothing, then nothing is wrong. Chronic yeast, in fact, shows nothing on routine blood tests. The incidence of yeast syndrome is remarkably high. In my practice signs and symptoms suggesting yeast syndrome are present in ï¿½ of new patients. This can be attributed to the commonness of factors thought to lead to a predisposition to this health problem. The three most important factors favoring the development of this syndrome are the presence of dental amalgam and resultant mercury toxicity, the use (and overuse) of antibiotics and the high carbohydrate content of the typical western diet. All three of these predisposing factors are widely prevalent in the modern western world and both favor the growth of yeast. To be correct - yeast, fungus, and anaerobic bacteria as "yeast syndrome" always involves all three. In this article, when I write "yeast," I am referring to all three - yeast, fungus, and anaerobic bacteria. This condition is also know as dysbiosis. Persistent bloating and flatulence unrelated to specific foods are the consistent symptoms.Antibiotics, especially Tetracycline, long used at the drop of a hat by doctors eager for a simple answer to complex health problems, kill off bacteria which are needed for normal digestion. In their relative absence intestinal yeast are able to proliferate beyond their normal bounds. Add to this the excessive intake of not only simple sugars but "high glycemic index" carbohydrates such as breads, pastas, potatoes, and rice which convert to simple sugars in short order, and yeast organisms are provided with their basic food group. Under these conditions yeast can proliferate and cause symptoms even in people with normal immune systems. Symptoms of yeast syndrome are caused by the normal byproducts of yeast metabolism. Candida has been found to produce 79 distinct toxins. The human body must dispose of these toxins. They easily diffuse throughout the body and no organ system is immune to the effects they produce. Yeast, once it takes hold in the intestinal mucosa, is difficult to eliminate and if eliminated, tends to return over and over. Dietary changes which control yeast overgrowth must become a life style change in order to be meaningful as a long term prevention. Once having dominated the intestinal mucosa, yeast renders the mucosa partially incompetent to regulate the entry of digested food into the intestine. This circumstance is called the "leaky gut syndrome" and what leaks into the circulation are long chain polypeptides (partially digested protein). These molecules can set off the immune system into inappropriate action as they are recognized as "foreign" by the immune system. The antibodies which are produced may attack host tissue and this may account for some autoimmune diseases. Yeast overgrowth is implicated in many forms of psoriasis and other dermatoses (Skinner, Crook, James, Oranje, Buslau), also in infantile seborrheic dermatitis (Bothe, Busacker, Reinel).


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.aegis.com/pubs/catie/1994/cati4703.html Feeding Fungi Community AIDS Treatment Information Exchange: TreatmentUpdate 47 - Volume 4, No. 7 - February 1994 Sean Hosein * YEAST INFECTIONS People whose immune systems are weakened by chemotherapy or other conditions can develop life-threatening yeast infections. The fungus Candida albicans can often cause serious mouth/throat, vaginal and intestinal infections in people with HIV/AIDS. Although several antifungal drugs are available, patients will probably need maintenance doses for the rest of their lives. So it is not surprising that doctors are beginning to report more cases of yeast resistant to one or several antifungal drugs. In an attempt to minimize their use of antifungal drugs, some patients are changing their diet and restricting their use of sugar which they hope will discourage yeast infections. Researchers in the USA have been performing experiments on baby mice with Candida and sugar to monitor the growth of yeast. * BABY MICE AND YEAST The researchers used yeast grown from the spinal fluid of a man who died from an overwhelming yeast infection. This yeast was then used to infect 63 mice. Of these 63, 46 survived but only 36 were used for the experiments. The 36 mice were divided into 3 groups. In group one, 14 mice were kept for observation and comparison with the other two groups. In group two, 12 mice drank water which had the sugar substitute xylitol (a natural sweetener) added. Xylitol is not ordinarily used by Candida and unlike glucose does not help yeast grow. In group three, 10 mice drank water with added glucose. The immune systems of the mice were then damaged by injecting them with the anticancer drug Cytoxan®(cyclophosphamide). * RESULTS--GROWTH OF YEAST Yeast was detected in feces samples from all the mice approximately 16 days after they had been infected. A week later the amount of fungus in feces samples from the mice fed glucose increased to levels greater than in samples from the other mice. This increase was statistically significant, that is, not likely due to chance alone. * RESULTS--CHEMOTHERAPY When all of the mice were given chemotherapy to suppress their immune systems the amount of yeast rose in feces samples from the mice fed glucose. The level of yeast in fecal samples from the other two groups of mice remained "relatively stable", according to the researchers. * RESULTS--INTESTINES Eighty percent of mice fed glucose had detectable yeast in their intestines. In comparison, 90% of the mice fed xylitol or no sugar had either no detectable yeast or only minor outbreaks. This difference between the mice fed glucose and others fed xylitol or no sugar was highly statistically significant. *SUMMARYAdding glucose to the diets of baby mice clearly "stimulated the growth of [yeast] in their intestines", stated the researchers. Xylitol did not increase the growth of yeast in mice. The intestines of mice fed glucose had yeast that was able to penetrate the intestine and enter the body. * GLUCOSE This sugar is important in stimulating the growth of yeast. This change, stimulated by glucose, helps fungi resist attack by the immune system. In these experiments xylitol did not help the growth of yeast. The researchers warned that glucose supplements in the diet can encourage the growth of Candida. Reducing the amount of added sugars in the diets of patients with HIV/AIDS may help them avoid severe oral and intestinal yeast infections. * SUBSTITUTES? We have reports from several doctors and their HIV-infected patients that eating less sugar has helped reduce outbreaks of oral yeast infections. For some people simply reading the list of ingredients of the processed food they buy is a good way to begin to eat less simple sugars such as corn and maple syrup, glucose, fructose, invert sugar and sucrose. Some people use the artificial sweetener NutraSweet® others use barley malt extracts (which have complex carbohydrates yet still taste sweet) or concentrated apple and pear juices to sweeten the taste of baked food. Some people take a daily capsule of 'friendly' bacteria (available from the refrigerated section of health food stores) which they use to help keep the growth of yeast under control. A more detailed report on this appears in the next section. REFERENCES: 1. Vargus SL, Patrick CC, Ayers G and Hughes WT. Modulating effect of dietary carbohydrate supplementation on Candida albicans colonization and invasion in a neutropenic mouse model. Infection and Immunity 1993;61: 619-626. 9402


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Autism is characterized by impaired social interactions, by impaired communication, and by repetitive interests and behaviors. Sometimes autistic people are unable to speak. Vision may be impaired/altered. *Almost 90% of the autistic population have the wrong flora in their intestines and many appear to have a viral infection in the intestines.* Most have high serotonin levels or excess free serotonin. When treated for the infections, dysbiosis, and other related problems (such as Mrs. Weiss' TARTER sauce&#8230







, some of the autistic recover. Interventions with the youngest children seem to hold the most promise.


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## Fachtna (May 22, 2002)

Apologies but I really don't seem to have the same amount of time to spend here as other people which is why I'm only know getting back to a Flux post to me from a while up the thread.


> quote: quote:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But when person after person on this BB who have been diagnosed with IBS report relief from such a diet, how can you totally dismiss that? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------The simplest explanation would be that it is due to a reduction in volume of material and less "workload" for the gut.


The "simplest" explanation doen't neccessarily mean it's the correct explanation. Following that logic the "simplest" explanation for IBS is that it is all in the mind, or that it's purely caused by "stress" but I think both of us would agree that the reality is more complicated.


> quote: quote:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The thing is they were DIAGNOSED as having IBS.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Actually they were not. IBS diagnosis is fairly specific in terms of Rome II criteria. Pimental's original study didn't use Rome criteria and neither has Borody.


Actually they WERE diagnosed with IBS. YOu can argue that they were mis-diagnosed, but the fact remains that its highly likely that many people on this board have similar conditions, however you define those conditions. They have been diagnosed by their doctors with IBS and may benifit from the same things as Meckle has benifeted from.


> quote: quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------you're comment that their approaches could have been irrelevant to their improvement is--------------------------------------------------------------------------------But what if it is true?


That's weak. You edit out the argument I made against you're point and just ask "What if it is true?". Is that supposed to be an argument? I mean what if it's true that IBS is really all in the mind? What if it's true that you are a secret agent of the drug companies just trying to keep us away from non drug based approaches? What if it's true that IBS is all a big conspiracy etc etc...? What if it's true that you are wrong and I am right? That's not really an argument is it? More like children fighting in the playground.


> quote: quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Well precisely, how can we know, how can YOU know?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------We don't know. That is the point.


Old debating trick that one - take the original central point of the person you are debating against and try to make it look as if they only forced into it by the logic of your arguments!


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## Fachtna (May 22, 2002)

> quote: You know you on the yeast side are all claiming that the theory of yeast can't be proved or disproved. It is the same as saying Existence of God can neither be proved or disproved. It is an act of faith and can't be argued with. Perhaps it is just as futile arguing with you folks. It is just as futile.


Mmmm ... Good if flawed analogy. When you say "you on the yeast side" I suppose you just mean it as a shorthand and aren't saying that we are for one theory and against the brain-gut axis. With regard to God I consider it most unscientific for someone to argue that God certainly doesn't exist. I'm not sure I beleive in the existence of God but I have an open mind on the subject. However we are unlikely in the forseeable future if ever to prove the existence of God. But if yeast/bacteria play an important role in IBS this WILL probably be established eventually.


> quote: Oh and by the way Fach(I hope you don't mind me calling you that) when you said there was a time you couldn't understand what I was saying were you referring to the time when we were duiscussing a very difficult hard to understand paper on yeast on meckle's site? when you were being um a bit slow on the uptake?


I'll take that in the spirit it was intended Bon Bon!


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Fach, good point that it is unscientific to argue the non existence of God. Just thought I would make a joke . It seenmed to have made some of them speechless and had its effect. I agree that it is not superfluous to argue the existence of yeast in terms of science, but however in the absence of studies and tests it seems to me we might as well discuss the objects of *my* imagination







. (I am a schizophrenic so I should know about products of the imagination. ) I could easily conjure up a theory odf a new animal in our stomachs, would you all follow me? Hey I could make a cool million. I don't even know why we are discussing it in the absence of definitive studies(I would even accept definitive small scaler studies but alas there are none) except for the fact that diet works. We know fat is a problem for IBS'ers, eric has been shouting that for ages, and we know of the various types of carbohyrate malabsorption, so is it any wonder the diet works?. I am not even sure about whether the diet works as fructose malabsorption is supposed to be a factor in IBS and many fruits and veggies are allowed in the candida diet. I know I have got total relief from a fructose free diet. You all might get better results eliminating fruits and veggies.But meckle and kel and David, besides that, the reason that this has come too a head is that if anyone reads this board people will think candida is the factyor behind IBS, given that kel seems to have nothing better to do that spen houras on the board talking about it and I go to the Meeting Place and have neglected this part of the board for the last one year. What is happening here is a tragedy. Let's not forget we are in the Internet age and if you all care about this board you will go and become more well rounded in your reasoning and research so that information is shared in a responsible manner. I know I do and I support the board generously financially as do many others on thjis thread and we take on the stewardship of the board seriously. I would not support this board if it went to the dogs as might not the others but perhaps you all prefer thatI think new ideas are great and it is great that this debate is taking place and I appreciate the well reasoned approaches of some on this thread but you will not find it easy to float anything, which cannot stand up to the test, around on this board for too long. So like it or leave it.OK Let me get off the soapbox. I will wait for an attack.


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## Fachtna (May 22, 2002)

> quote: I agree that it is not superfluous to argue the existence of yeast in terms of science, but however in the absence of studies and tests it seems to me we might as well discuss the objects of my imagination . (I am a schizophrenic so I should know about products of the imagination. ) I could easily conjure up a theory odf a new animal in our stomachs, would you all follow me? Hey I could make a cool million.



























































Do you know we are only allowed use eight of those images?Seriously Bon Bon, I think you worry too much about people not getting a full picture. I think most intelligent people would look at some of the general articles that are available on this board and aren't just going to follow the advice of the very first poster they come accros. And if they are stupid enough to do that, than you're not going to be able to save them from themselves anyway. There is more than enough information around here about mainstream approaches to IBS for it to be unmissable to anyone seriously looking for information.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

I am afraid the image I have of you is enextricably tied to your name







But take a look at the threads on the main page around 10 am. There are twio directly about candida, one asking about the candida diet, a bacterial vivonex diiscussion which became about candida, one about homeopathy and one on the alternative practition Dr Dahlman. That added to the fact thatr kel takexs any opportunity to divert the topic and talk about whatever her current favorite allternative medicine cure is. Have you seen the number of thrreads asking kel for her o[inion like she is well read







If it were not for our efforts in debunking candida and other alternative types of cures , I wouldn't blame anyone for being gullible enough to fall for all this BS propogated by Kel and ciompany. But it seems we have to be constantly on our guard as kel never tires and as annoying and arrogant as you find our picturesque debunking efforts, believe me it is tiresome and exhausting for us.kel get a job.







Now that you have graduated and posted a pic, maybe you could get a reconmmendation from one of the members in the computer field.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Also how many articles or posts about the mainstrseam are there directly related tO IBS? If you want us to take you more seriously, kel, meckle and david, post some articles from the mainstream please.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: Dr. Carol Jessop, Assistant Professor of Medicine at The University of California, treated 900 of her CFIDS patients with a strong anti-yeast drug known as ketoconazole, and a sugar free diet. Results were impressive.


Results? Where are they? It seems safe to assume these studies never took place. It sounds made up.


> quote:Actually, for many people, a yeast infection or a lack of the friendly bacteria can be established the moment you are born. Both friendly and unfriendly microorganisms are picked up at birth as a newborn baby passes through the birth canal of its mother. If the mother is not adequately supplied with the friendly flora, her baby will also be lacking. If she should happen to have a yeast infection anywhere in her body, then the Candida or a predisposition to a yeast infection can be transferred at birth to the baby. If the child is not breast-fed (mother's milk contains and supports the friendly flora to help the baby), Candida will begin to grow slowly throughout life. When you consider all the white flour and sugary candy children eat, you begin to wonder how we survive. This is how and when many adults created the foundation for a yeast problem.


Are the bolded statements the ones they made up?


> quote:The Yeast Syndrome, also known as chronic candidiasis, the chronic candida syndrome, and candida related complex is still unaccepted by some medical doctors


Why is this accurate statement *not* in bold?


> quote:Almost 90% of the autistic population have the wrong flora in their intestines and many appear to have a viral infection in the intestines. M


Actual number: 0. I didn't put that in bold because it's accurate and wouldn't want to confuse people


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

MissC -glad your amused. Do Eric and flux have any actual qualifications or experience in science ???







Bonniei


> quote: But take a look at the threads on the main page around 10 am. There are twio directly about candida, one asking about the candida diet, a bacterial vivonex diiscussion which became about candida, one about homeopathy and one on the alternative practition Dr Dahlman. That added to the fact thatr kel takexs any opportunity to divert the topic and talk about whatever her current favorite allternative medicine cure is. Have you seen the number of thrreads asking kel for her o[inion like she is well read If it were not for our efforts in debunking candida and other alternative types of cures , I wouldn't blame anyone for being gullible enough to fall for all this BS propogated by Kel and ciompany. But it seems we have to be constantly on our guard as kel never tires and as annoying and arrogant as you find our picturesque debunking efforts, believe me it is tiresome and exhausting for us.


You ahve this all backwards. The reason this topic always come up - is because you of the non-yeast persusaion do not let anyone discuss it. Every poor newbie who comes along and asks an innocent question about yeast gets lambasted out of it by flux and eric. Then kel joins in and the whole thing starts up.


> quote: If it were not for our efforts in debunking candida and other alternative types of cures


Who gave you this authority ? Who appointed you, Eric and Flux the definer and protector of all things scientific. F###$k off! We are all equals here and we can discuss and believe what we want. Seriously leave your idealisitc fascism at home Bonnei, Eric and flux. You don't have to save anyone.Incidentally Bonniei - how's your own symptoms ? Hows that pharmaceutical approach worknig out for ya ?Me ? I'm perfect - my crazy "out of the box" (who's box?) alternative stuff seems to have worked. I no longer have excrutiating stomach cramps along with abdominal guarding (which means your peritoneum is irritated by the way) or diarrhea, an inflamed pancreas, high blood pressure or extermely irritating skin infections. My digestion is better, my appetite normal at last and my BM's normal, regular and almost an enjoyable experience for the first time in my life. But I expect your right - I'm sure it's just placebo.


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## DavidLA (Nov 28, 2000)

Meckle-You right on target! Someone brings up candida/yeast questions & they immediately get slamed. As I've been saying since day one..there is no such thing as an "IBS expert" The only true expert for yourself is the person you see when you look in the mirror each morning. You, Kel and I all initially went the conventional route..& it failed us miserable. So instead of feeling sorry for ourselfs, or excepting everything conventional Drs. told us as gospel we chosed going another path. If Eric or anyone else wants to go strictly with the mind/brain connection, and not even consider another thoeory or possibility there the ones who are going to have to "live" with the condition from HELL. You,Kel and I believe there is something more to this..for the simply reason that we feel so much better. Maybe that's the ONLY thing that would finally convince anyone..is when they can see first hand for themselfs that they feel so much better. But, in-order to accomplish this..you have to first JUMP IN. You have to at least be open minded enough to give it a chance. You can't just pop a probiotic or enzyme occasionally. You have to really commit yourself to it! Read,research and start experimenting with Supplements and changes in your Diet. And once you've passed the hump, you'll now join the believers.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

I have many positions besides bacteria and fungus/yeast.1. prostaglandins, bradykinins, leukotrienes, 5-HT release and their impact on substance P and mast cells2. heavy metal toxicity3. hormones such as CRH (thanks eric)4. the role of the hypothalamus and other lower brain organs.5. Mike NoLomotil's lost oral tolerance theory (very important!!!) (where is he?)6. the role of mycoplasma as a possible triggering agent in Crohn's Disease7. omega 3 fatty acid supplements8. homeopathy (it's PHYSICS -- folks. It does work!) (bonniei, i really wish that since you are in India and it is cheap there that you would give it a try-- what do you have to lose except for a few rupies) (25,000 indian homeopaths are not wrong and all of their patients are not delusional) (you can thank me later)9. acupunture10. accupressure11. viruses12. probiotics13. environmental issues like clean water, air and pure food14. consumer activism -- i am against corporate influence and there use of antibiotics, steroids, hormones and synthetic chemicals (food engineering)etc15. many other topics***********************************************************************************************the only thing that i ever said was that bacteria and yeast can definitely play a role in *SOME* people. it depends on many factors. in my case there are many things going on besides IBS symptoms (by the way my IBS is almost completely wiped out --- except for --- multiple food intolerances that cause poor stool formation (kind of like VERY slow diarrhea), poor peristalsis, and some brain dysfunction.) However, if i am super-strict, take the antibiotic herbals, and Ibsacol -- then i finally feel close to normal for the first time in 2 decades. (and i have gotten myself off of all drugs)i have made a great deal of progress by following a specific plan. it is incredibly difficult to follow this plan. it requires a lot of discipline, but the alternative is far more than i can bear. my suffering was extreme and there was never even a single day of remission. to go from total hopelessness to where i am at now is amazing.eric and flux can ridicule all they want but the fact is that i am solving this curse. (despite the fact that i am still frustrated over several issues --- viral????? i am frustrated because i don't know what has caused this whole thing, and the struggle may eventually wear me down --- if i am not cured in 1 year i plan on using Dr Dantini's anti-viral program to see if it helps) ( i will eventually solve this )information should be exchanged and shared and talked about. eric has a single ridiculous study that he keeps posting from dr hunter. the joke is that eric posted another study that clearly illustrates just how difficult it is to culture fungus. but when they did it correctly they came up with over 40 different species. --- so why does he continue to post this ridiculous study by dr hunter??? who knows. maybe it does have to do with financial incentives (his tapes). maybe it is because he does not have problems with bacteria or yeast and therefore he decides that NO one must then have the problem.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: Robert E. Willner, M.D. Ph.D. The very nature of the medical profession, *under the influence and deception of the pharmaceutical industry* , is one of conflict of interest. _True disease prevention_ , other than the questionable practice of vaccination, is either rejected, *too time consuming, or in conflict with economic gain. * Traditional natural nutritional concepts are therefore a total enigma to most physicians. It is certainly more profitable to dispense with the patient quickly and at a substantial fee, and *simply write a prescription regardless of the risks involved * to the patients. Everything is ruled by "consensus" and therefore is the "best that is available. "It goes unchallenged because *all opposition is "unorthodox"* , "unprofessional" and "not in keeping with community standards," and therefore illegal and quackery. The so-called "side effects" of drugs are, in truth, unwanted DIRECT EFFECTS. The cumulative result of many of these therapies on the suppression of the immune system, coupled with the multiple insults visited daily upon us from the pollution of our air, food and water, has unquestionably been the reason that the rate of cancer has doubled in the last twenty years. *The crime is compounded by establishment medicine's symptomatic approach * WHICH LEAVES THE CUASATIVE FACTORS IN TACT....The massive medical centers are impressive monuments to modern technology. They excel in diagnostic ability. But once having accomplished that goal, (diagnosis) these great edifices become tombs for the medically maimed. With great authority and pomposity, they assume a deified presence and solemnly direct the course of your life on a hopeless path towards death. You sign legal documents absolving them of their arrogant ignorance and intended crimes. Your questions are taken as an affront to their lofty position and an insult to their supreme intelligence, *for they truly believe that no other answer exists but what they have to offer.* ********** (kel says, "geez --- doesn't this sound like two people that we know") *********** They brand as heretics and venomously denounce their own colleagues who have dared question their rituals. They excommunicate those who seek a rational and non-destructive path to salvation. My advice - find physicians with open minds and the courage of their convictions. THE ANSWERS YOU SEEK SHOULD NOT BE A DOCTOR'S OPINION BASED ON ANOTHER OPINION. IT SHOULD BE AN OPINION BASED ON CLINICAL EXPERIENCE, OBSERVATION AND ACTUAL FACT.....if the doctor gives you an opinion, always ask for the source of his information. Too often, doctors simply say "Oh that doesn't work." or "Which quack did you hear that from?" Ask him very simply, "How do you know it doesn't work?" or "Could you tell me where you read that?" If he doesn't give you resource material and instead repeats a similar statement then you know that you are listening to propaganda. It is the same old pseudo-scientific nonsense that has blocked or suppressed some incredibly wonderful therapies *in favor of the poisons produced for profit (drugs).* If your doctor does not have any information about the safer natural therapies, show him the information in this book and all of the references. Many doctors have open minds but are not aware of the fact that a wall of silence has been placed around them.Physicians today are required to practice within the "standards of the community." This does not mean what it seems to say. The word "standards" no longer refers to qualities of high or low, excellent or poor. It now means that you do what everybody else is doing, even though no vote on the matter has been taken.The true orthodox physician, if one uses Hippocrates as the standard, is now referred to as the "alternative" or "holistic" physician. However, the current common usage exists *because establishment allopathic medicine, through the efforts of the AMA, which represents less than half of the physician population, has successfully gained control of the institutions of learning and the journals that disseminate medical information. They effectively dictate medical consensus. * For the most part, there is no conscious conspiracy going on. The *physician of today is merely the product of over a century of conditioning * in the "legitimate drug" culture. The formative years of modern medicine has left a profound impact on the adult it has grown to be.


you can say that again. i think this doctor sums it up very nicely. i am not saying that all drugs are bad, but the record speaks for itself. chronic illness is not being treated effectively by orthodox methods....


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

American Gastroenterological AssociationAmerican Gastroenterological Association medical position statement: Irritable bowel syndrome"Pathophysiology of IBS symptoms The symptoms of IBS have a physiological basis. Although no specific physiological mechanism is unique to, or characterizes IBS, there are at least 3 interrelated factors that affect symptoms to varying degrees in individuals with IBS: 1 altered gut reactivity motility, secretion in response to luminal e.g., meals, gut distention, inflammation, bacterial factors or provocative environmental psychosocial stress stimuli, resulting in symptoms of diarrhea and/or constipation; 2 a hypersensitive gut with enhanced visceral perception and pain; and 3 dysregulation of the brain-gut axis, possibly associated with greater stress-reactivity and altered perception and/or modulation of visceral afferent signals. Brain-gut axis dysregulation may also play a role in the subgroups of patients who have gut inflammatory and immune factors persisting following infection or inflammation of the bowel. Further studies are needed to characterize the precise role of these factors in IBS and to identify physiological subgroups more amenable to specific treatments. " http://www2.gastrojournal.org/scripts/om.d...id=agast1232105 American Gastroenterological Association medical position statement: Guidelines on constipation http://www2.gastrojournal.org/scripts/om.d...&id=a0060001761


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## DavidLA (Nov 28, 2000)

Kel,-Great Post! I love when conventional trained Drs. (M.D's) make their number one priority to find relief for their patients. Even if it goes against what main-stream beliefs are. Very refreshing.


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## Jenkins (Feb 15, 2002)

I have said it before and I am going to say it again to all the naysayers against yeast and other things.Not all of us here may have THE IBS that Eric and FLUX always talks about. Perhaps some or many of us have been told we have IBS by doctors who are too quick to dismiss or in my case I have no insurance so my doc says IBS and anxiety here's some antidepressants.Not all people who suffer with IBS like symptoms may actually have it due to crappy doctors misdiagnosing. So I think it is only fair that people be allowed to discuss whatever they want when it comes to their symptoms. We shouldnt be made to feel like fools for choosing a different path. If the path doesn't work we can choose another one but to ridicule and take away hope is just mean. And there is a very good chance that just one person ONE person came here listened to the naysayers and didnt find the cure that they needed. So lay off, if you dont believe in it then go start your own topic.Jenkins


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

"And there is a very good chance that just one person ONE person came here listened to the naysayers and didnt find the cure that they needed. "Or there is the chance that a thousand people will come here read extremely questionable candida and pathogen theories and be lead down the wrong path against their doctors explaining IBS and diagnoses and treatments and may actually have one of the many functional disorders or an actual disease they know about or be mislead away from the current state of the art knowledge on IBS which is substantial and does not at this time point to candida, but other very complex problems they know about?When there is a connection between candida and IBS, that is actually quantified and replicated in IBS research you will hear about it for sure!"Readers' ExchangeDefining Stress in IBSFall 2003From Arizona -- Thank you so much for your efforts and support for those of us with GI disorders. Your first issue Spring 2003 of Digestive Health Matters is both professional and informative. I would like to comment on one of the articles - "The CNS: Center for Neurovisceral Sciences and Women's Health at UCLA." I am encouraged to know that steps are being taken for funding research of IBS and interstitial cystitis. However, it is discouraging that researchers are still expending time and money to research "neurobiological mechanisms by which stress modulates brain-visceral interaction." I realize that stress is a popular theory in the discussion of IBS triggers, however, I believe this is completely backward and it is the chronic pain and totally unreliable bowel function of an IBS sufferer which causes the greatest stress. If research would focus on "fixing" the bowel, no doubt the panic and fear of IBS would be greatly alleviated. Comment from Emeran Mayer, M.D. -- In contrast to the common interpretation of the term "stress" as a psychological phenomenon, it should be understood as any real or perceived perturbation of an organism's homeostasis, or state of harmony or balance. For example, in this viewpoint a severe hemorrhage, starvation, extreme temperature, or worry about the unpredictable onset of abdominal pain all qualify as stressors -- some as "physical" stressors, others as "psychological" stressors. The fear to leave the house in the morning without knowing if one can make it to work without having to stop on the freeway because of an uncontrollable bowel movement, or the fear of experiencing uncontrollable abdominal discomfort during an important business meeting are sufficient stressors to activate the central stress system. The central stress system involves the release of chemical stress mediators in the brain such as corticotropin releasing factor, which in turn orchestrate an integrated autonomic, behavioral, neuroendocrine, and pain modulatory response. This biological response in turn will alter the way the brain and the viscera interact, and this altered brain-gut interaction can result in worsening of IBS symptoms. Thus, pain and discomfort, fear of these symptoms, activation of the stress response, and modulation of the brain-gut interactions by stress mediators are part of a vicious cycle which need to be interrupted to produce symptom relief. The neurobiology of stress is not a theory, but a topic that can be studied in animal models, and one of the hottest topics in drug development for treatment of IBS e.g., substance P antagonists, corticotropin releasing factor antagonists. " http://www.aboutibs.org/Publications/StressDefined.html So while it is great to theroize somewhat, and think "outside the box" although that can lead to even more worry and cause more symptoms, and sometimes extremely questionable treatments, although if they are not harmful why not, it is still very important to keep your eyes on the ball.Meanwhile, stress reduction and diet manipulation are crucial treatments for IBS and have been shown to be effective in the majority of IBS patients to better their quality of life and reduce their symptoms.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

eric,when people like Pete and myself (and many others) experience a great deal of symptom relief from taking an antibiotic and a probiotic --- then it kind of makes you wonder if something is going on with respect to various microorganisms living within our intestinal tract.researchers know very little about colonic bacteria. this is one of the reasons why it took them forever to discover that H. Pylori was causing ulcers in the stomach and duodenum in 90% of the cases.How can anyone with any sense of intelligence and reason take a look at the h. pylori situation and NOT wonder if there could be dozens of different types of bacteria (even fungal organisms --- like GEOTRICHUM yeast organisms that a particular person tested positive for) that could be causing a host of problems in SOME of the suffering IBSers???i strongly suspect that various toxins might be responsible for pain, cramping, altered mood states, brain fog, and any number of symptoms. prior to initiating the antibacterial/ antifungal herbals i felt incredibly toxic or poisoned. the herbal antibiotics was able to eliminate about 1/2 of this problem. the antifungal drugs were able to clear up a lot of the brain fog and dizzyness --- but it would seem to return somewhat after a few months.---I do NOT claim that this must happen in all people nor do i claim that this is the sole reason for anyone's problem. Our problems are very complex and your theories certainly fit into the IBS puzzle. i think that the various hormones that you mention are involved in this mess. you think that stress is involved. i also think that stress is involved (stress does seem to worsen the condition but does not cause it)dr sternberg mentions the hormone CRF corticotropin-releasing factor (CRF) as a problem for some people --- especially for those who lean towards the IBD spectrum.the fact that some of my problems have been cleared up by ibsacol suggests that there could be some type of metabolic disorder going on. i.e., essential fatty acids are eventually converted to hormones such as CRF and to prostaglandins and leukotrienes. maybe something is causing them to not get manufactured the correct way ???very confusing as to what is happening...... viral???? i wonder. antibiotic induced intestinal dysbiosis (my CDSA states this to be the case!!!). i wonder. --- can one so readily dismiss bacterial issues when a report from a respected lab states that the IBS sufferer has intestinal dysbiosis??? no! they should not, but it seems that does not stop 2 people from trying to ban the topic. jenkins, you are correct. these issues need to be addressed.eric you are correct when you say that a treatment is okay if it is not harmful. i don't think that drinking herbal teas like pau d'arco is harmful. anyone???? it seems to have helped me immensely (but especially when combined with other treatments)


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

> quote: We are all equals here and we can discuss and believe what we want


You are free to believe what you want. You are welcome to your beliefs. But please don't expect us to sit quietly on the sidelines. And is this what you call a discussiom, this


> quote: F###$k off!










And accusing us of fascism when things don't go your way. Were it not for the fact that I find you completely amusing I would have reported


> quote: F###$k off!


to Jeff. Obscenities are not allowed on this board.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

> quote: Incidentally Bonniei - how's your own symptoms ? Hows that pharmaceutical approach worknig out for ya ?


My symptoms are 100% under control for your info. I am traveling and haven't had a problem once. And I achieved 100% relief ion a fructose free diet. I don't say I am *almost* cured or anything like kel does. My symptoms are completely non existent.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

> quote: 1. prostaglandins, bradykinins, leukotrienes, 5-HT release and their impact on substance P and mast cells2. heavy metal toxicity3. hormones such as CRH (thanks eric)4. the role of the hypothalamus and other lower brain organs.5. Mike NoLomotil's lost oral tolerance theory (very important!!!) (where is he?)6. the role of mycoplasma as a possible triggering agent in Crohn's Disease7. omega 3 fatty acid supplements8. homeopathy (it's PHYSICS -- folks. It does work!) (bonniei, i really wish that since you are in India and it is cheap there that you would give it a try-- what do you have to lose except for a few rupies) (25,000 indian homeopaths are not wrong and all of their patients are not delusional) (you can thank me later)9. acupunture10. accupressure11. viruses12. probiotics13. environmental issues like clean water, air and pure food14. consumer activism -- i am against corporate influence and there use of antibiotics, steroids, hormones and synthetic chemicals (food engineering)etc15. many other topics


I suppose they all cured you.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

no not at all.the most important factors in my turnaround are:1. strict oligoantigenic diet2. ibsacol3. antibacterial & antifungal herbals (& garlic)4. homeopathyi can't really be certain about all the other things.they seemed to address the following problems:1. strict diet ----- stops triggering the immune system2. ibsacol ---- an immunomodulator that quiets down my whacked out immune system3. the antibiotic herbals ------ solving something with respect to my flora4. homeopathy ------- this stuff had an absolutely 100%, unmistakeable effect on a very narrow symptom set of mine (but it has NOT touched my gut problems --- so far)


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

If with all these meds you are on a strict diet I don't know, kel. i really recommend that you stick with a fructose free diet or even better a carb free diet and you not only might get good relief from your symptomsd, but you will save a fortune and stop misinforming the people on the board. Incidentally which med in homeopathy are you trying? Please note my new thread.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

fructose is strictly avoided. i do better on low carb as far as dizziness and brain fog, but i feel better overall on a 60% carb diet.plus most proteins cause bad symptoms.IBS is a wicked beast for many of us --- mine was a severe case. i am still battling it, and it could be viral. i don't know what the true cause of it is.there have been at least 3 dozen people on 4 or 5 ibsacol threads that have reported very good progress. therefore, reporting my experience is the right thing to do.there are many people including pete who have had success with a program that contains bacteria.... and the use of probiotics. this should be reported.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://fampra.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/18/3/258 Infectious DiseasesEffectiveness of nystatin in polysymptomatic patients. A randomized, double-blind trial with nystatin versus placebo in general practice Heiko Santelmann, Even Laerum, Joergen Roenneviga, and Hans E Fagertunb, Department of General Practice and Community Medicine, University of Oslo, 0317 Oslo, a Alpharma AS, 0212 Oslo and b Parexel Medstat AS, 2001 Lillestroem, Norway. Correspondence to: Correspondence to Dr H. Santelmann, Holmenveien 1, 0374 Oslo, Norway.Background. Antifungal therapy has been claimed to be effective in polysymptomatic patients with diffuse symptoms from multiple body systems and even well defined diseases, traditionally not related to fungi. Hypersensitivity to fungus proteins and mycotoxins has been proposed as the cause. Methods. We conducted a 4-week randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study in 116 individuals selected by a 7-item questionnaire to determine whether the antifungal agent nystatin given orally was superior to placebo. At the onset of the study, the patients were free to select either their regular diet or a sugar- and yeast-free diet, which resulted in four different subgroups: nystatin + diet [ND); placebo & diet [PD); nystatin [N); and placebo [P). Results. Nystatin was significantly better than placebo in reduction of the overall symptom score [P less than 0.003]. In six of the 45 individually recorded symptoms, the improvement was significant (P less than 0.01). All three active treatment groups reduced their overall symptom scores significantly (P less than 0.0001), while the placebo regimen had no effect (P equal 0.83). The benefit of diet was significant within both the nystatin (ND greater than N) and the placebo groups (PD greater than P). Conclusions. Nystatin is superior to placebo in reducing localized and systemic symptoms in individuals with presumed fungus hypersensitivity as selected by a 7-item questionnaire. This superiority is probably enhanced even further by a sugar- and yeast-free diet.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

more evidence for the role of bacteria....********************************************************************************** http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/129/7/1451S Many cases of IBS follow bouts of gastroenteritis (McKendrick et al. 1994B12B12 ) or courses of antibiotics (Alun Jones et al. 1984B2B2 ), and the gut flora may be abnormal with an increase in the number of facultative anaerobes together with a reduction in counts of Bifidobacteria (Bayliss et al. 1984B3B3 ). Recently, we have shown that patients with IBS have abnormal colonic fermentation with increased hydrogen production that is greatly reduced when the patient is retested after following a diet containing equal amounts of substrates for fermentation such as fiber and non-starch polysaccharides, but excluding those foods that typically provoke symptoms (King et al. 1998B8B8 ). It thus appears that as many as 50% of patients with IBS have abnormal colonic fermentation. Although symptoms may be well controlled by exclusion diets, the management of the condition would be greatly simplified if fermentation could be corrected. We have successfully treated some patients with IBS with probiotic bacteria (Fuller 1991B5B5 , Hunter et al. 1996B7B7 ). However, probiotics are of limited value because colonization resistance prevents their becoming established permanently in the gastrointestinal tract and patients' symptoms return shortly after withdrawing treatment. However, because at least 50% of patients with IBS are known to have food intolerance, which in turn is an effect of abnormal colonic fermentation, it would be premature to discard oligofructose without further investigation, particularly because the counts of Bifidobacter have been shown to be low in some of these patients (Bayliss et al. 1984B3B3 ). Direct studies of fermentation in these patients with and without fructose-oligosaccharide should be performed using the calorimetry model developed by King et al. (1998)B8B8 and assessing the value of higher doses. Further clinical studies would be justified if these fermentation studies suggested that oligofructose did indeed improve abnormal colonic fermentation. -- (the study results show that oligofructose does not help IBS patients) (my experience is that it can make things WORSE) (it is probably feeding the bad bacteria)-


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## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

My individual story: In 1996 I had a UTI, used Floxin. Noticed stool changed ...very small and dry. no ibs symptoms to speak of but have always been a BM every 3 or so days. In 1997 I took erythromycin for 4 days. My tongue has looked "strange" and still does. In early 1998 bloating, gas started. a skin problem that is a mystery. doc #1 says "flea bites", doc #2 says hyperhydrosis, derm doc says ?. it started with a break out on upper chest of "bumps" itched, lasted 2 weeks. but then a "skin condition" of I would feel like I burned my skin on 1 spot and look and there would be a red bump...my handle was Alcohol made it feel better. this went on for 2 years. Summer 1998 I had what docs call Viral syndrome. low temp, feeling weak, all food = feeling drugged, and sleep disturb..waking up every couple hrs. lost 15 lbs, Major Brain fog. tendons spasming, seemed like the retrieval system in my brain was not working. lasted for 6 weeks. the light went back on. BUT left me with low tolerance of all food and sleep disturb. I would get the druggy feeling. I gained the weight back and more after 2 years. symptoms after eating subsided. if I had the flu they would return. then stop. In March of this year I had a uti AND spasming colon. happened 3 times. took Floxin. Then I went to GI doc. dx IBS. Oh took Flagyl about 2 yrs ago. as soon as I finished last dose I had explosive diarhea. Bloat/gas got worse after that. Coincidence? that is what docs reply. I don't think so, but I do go into denial and think it is all not related. So after 1998's "viral snydrome" I find most of symptoms are CFS symptoms, now IBS symptoms.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

jhouston,you know more than your doctors because you are extremely familiar with your body and everything that has happened. do you or anyone else really think that a doctor is going to say, "yes, jhouston, our wonderful medicines really screwed you up." No. Instead they will give you some lame answer like, "oh, it is just a coincidence, quit being such a worrier."if is was selling a product and people were getting hurt, i would not own up to anything.parts of your story sound like mine.***********************************************************************************by the way someone INCORRECTLY thought that i was saying antibiotics were okay. Not true. i agree with eric that they can be quite dangerous. it is my belief that they should be given with an antifungal like nystatin 2 million units per day if they are used.a probiotic or yogurt with very active cultures should be standard practice. it is not and this just goes to show the stupidity that still pervades western medicine.*************************************************************************************************eric,you say that there is no evidence that BACTERIA or fungus plays a role in our symptoms (or even some of the IBS population).well i beg to differ with you. every where i look i keep turning up information.here is a little study from Dr J.O. Hunter ---- the same doctor who did the primitive stool culture to "prove" his yeast bias.the study shows that bacteria is involved and is abnormal compared to control subjects bacteria.


> quote: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...6&dopt=Abstract Lancet. 1998 Oct 10;352(9135):1187-9. Abnormal colonic fermentation in irritable bowel syndrome.King TS, Elia M, Hunter JO.Department of Gastroenterology, Addenbrooke's Hospital, Cambridge, UK.BACKGROUND: The cause of irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) is unknown. It may follow gastroenteritis *and be associated with an abnormal gut flora and with food intolerance. Our study was designed to assess whether these factors were associated with colonic malfermentation. * METHODS: We carried out a crossover controlled trial of a standard diet and an exclusion diet matched for macronutrients in six female IBS patients and six female controls. During the final 72 h on each diet, faecal excretion of fat, nitrogen, starch, and non-starch polysaccharide NSP was measured, and total excretion of hydrogen and methane collected over 24 h in a purpose-built 1.4 m3 whole-body calorimeter. Breath hydrogen and methane excretion were then measured for 3 h after 20 g oral lactulose. FINDINGS: *The maximum rate of gas excretion was significantly greater in patients than in controls (2.4 mL/min IQR 1.7-2.6 vs 0.6, 0.4-1.1).* Although total gas production in patients was not greater than in controls (median 527 mL/24 h IQR 387-660 vs 412, 234-507), *hydrogen production was higher (332, 318-478 vs 162, 126-217, p=0.009). * In patients, the exclusion diet reduced symptoms and produced a fall in maximum gas excretion (0.5 mL/min IQR 0.3-0.7). After lactulose, breath hydrogen was greater on the standard than on the exclusion diet. INTERPRETATION: * Colonic-gas production, particularly of hydrogen, is greater in patients with IBS than in controls, and both symptoms and gas production are reduced by an exclusion diet. This reduction may be associated with alterations in the activity of hydrogen-consuming bacteria. Fermentation may be an important factor in the pathogenesis of IBS. * Publication Types:  Clinical Trial  Controlled Clinical Trial  Randomized Controlled Trial PMID: 9777836 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Kel, funny how you left the first sentence out of the above."Immunologic studies have revealed no evidence of food allergy." LOLI understand fermentation issues and also probiotics in IBS.However, Kel, this is an IBS bb and more is known about IBS then you seem to think they know.Also its not right to tell people they know more about their bodies then the doctors do. They may know more about their symptoms, but probably not their bodies and how they work. For example most people probably don't know the cells in the gut are pressure sensitive to stimulous or how stress effects digestion for the most part. If you or others feel you have candida or a bacterial or yeast infection then you need to go back to the doctors and get a different diagnoses and find out what is wrong with you personally as an organic cause. There are doctors who are experts in infectious diseases. But we all hopefully presume people went to the doctors here and were diagnosed with IBS and were told we do not totally understand or know what fully causes it, but we have a lot of research and basic science on it and the problem and we have ways to treat it.Because they did not send you home saying candida or bacteria causes IBS. You came to that conclusion on your own and your belief system.So you must think your were misdiagnosed, because your only thinking you have organic causes here through bacteria or yeast or fungus.You also seem to want everyone else to believe it also based on yourself and your beliefs.If people's doctors diagnose them with organic diseases, fine then the doctor and the patinet can work on the problem/problems. But guessing and saying all you do, leads to more anxiety and more symptoms and more worry, instead of systematically working to understand the disordered and what is know about it. Maybe then if you spent more time on it, you would understand it better. You have IBS over twenty years, well the bacteria yeast of fungus hasn't gotten any worse in all those years. The treatments your using are not 'Curing you" like you have stated in the past and you still believe a ton of things are wrong and causing problems and have a totally crazy diet.So in your case also you have not accepted you have IBS. Also again I am well aware of the fact that many people have more then one thing going on at once.You need to go to a doctor and have a bacteria yeast or fungus confirmed and treated, not convince everyone here IBS is caused by these things. They have not found the cause and your personal guessing won't get them there any faster.There are many more possibly reasons and causes that can go wrong in the digestion process, it is extremely complex and I am sure they will find more, they don't know about yet. They have found reasons however and there are treatments out there and most people get better. You have your eye so far from the ball, your on a different playing field.But your beliefs and for the most part completely condradictory advise for treating IBS and your personal results are not science or hopefully what people come here to learn about and find support for and that is IBS, because this is an IBS BB.There are problems in gas and fermentation and transit time. There may be other issues that are not totally clear yet. But the answer is not all bacteria are bad so kill them all. Many are extremely important to digestion and indiscriminatly killing the good ones increases the bad ones. They don't have a way basically to just kill the ones you want to kill or you believe your killing. That's why in IBS they suggest adding probiotics, not killing the bacteria in the gut. This can actually do some damge and harm.A lot of IBS suffering stems from gas problems in the gut, slow transit of gas, trapped gas or gas retension and fermentation causing gas, which puts pressure on the cells which are pressure sensitive and cause pain. However, that is not what the underlying problem is that causes IBS.The Merck Manual Gashttp://www.merck.com/mrkshared/CVMHighLigh...th&domain=www.m erck.com#hl_anchor[/URL]The merck manual IBS http://www.merck.com/mrkshared/CVMHighLigh...k.com#hl_anchor and by the way"Excess mucus production, which often occurs in IBS, is not related to mucosal injury. Its cause is unclear, but it may be related to cholinergic hyperactivity."


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

eric,you are misinformed in so many areas.1st --- the food ALLERGY issue is irrelavent and misleading. ALLERGY is NOT the issue. intolerance is the issue. would you like me to post something from your dr hunter that states that food intolerance is a likely result of the fermentative action taking place in the intestines???? i will if you want to see it.2nd of all what america do you live in --- on what planet --- and in what galaxy???? because you don't live in the same america as me on planet earth.infectious disease doctors are a bad joke. they only know how to treat raging aggressive, life-threatening infections. --- and they are not even that good at it. the complications can be severe.the overwhelming amout of doctors DON't know how to treat a case of dysbiosis because they don't even know what it is.getting treated is a joke. a holistic MD is the best bet. this is what i did and thank God for it --- because i am much better.however, i am being 100% honest when i speak of my continuing problems with respect to my immune system. my whole body can be turned upside down by ingesting any number of intolerant foods.what is your problem with that.. you may not have it but i do. i am trying to solve it.are you putting me down for still having some problems that need to be worked out???I feel darn normal a lot of the time. i could never say this in the past --- NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!i am working hard to solve it all. My IBS symptoms are 90% wiped out. once in a while they are 100% wiped out. this happens on the rare days when i have perfect peristalsis. which i had the past 2 days. we will see if it holds up (i doubt it).***************************************************************************************************you are missing the boat on so many issues.just because you don't have certain problems does not mean that the rest of us don't have them.as several people have already said, " eric, butt out". actually you don't have to butt out but quit telling people what they have and don't have. as MNL once said, "some people will never get it".


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Food intolerance and immune system, you must be confused here?"The immune system is not responsible for the symptoms of a food intolerance." http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/food.htm


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: "The immune system is not responsible for the symptoms of a food intolerance."


last month i told you how worthless that paper is (from the gov't). they are calling "food intolerance" ---- something like lactose intolerance. fine! we will use MNL's term of 'lost oral tolerance" and the release of multiple immune system cytokines and the eventual release of mast cell constituents.... but you will not get me to debate this issue. you have been fighting with MNL for 3 years now??? you fight with every one who does not embrace the sales of your hypno tapes 100%. what do you want from me? i think hypno is a great thing. --but it will not solve all of our problems. you continue to suffer with stool irregularities yourself. you would be long gone if you were well, but you aren't.


> quote: There are problems in gas and fermentation and transit time. There may be other issues that are not totally clear yet. But the answer is not all bacteria are bad so kill them all. Many are extremely important to digestion and indiscriminatly killing the good ones increases the bad ones. They don't have a way basically to just kill the ones you want to kill or you believe your killing. That's why in IBS they suggest adding probiotics, not killing the bacteria in the gut. This can actually do some damge and harm.


what do you mean they don't have a way of only killing the bad ones. of course they do.i have posted multiple papers on how garlic, onion, pau d'arco and so many others do this exact thing.mother nature has provided us with some powerful tools to help in our health problems.people all over the world have been using herbs to treat their conditions for centuries.granted -- they may not be the most incredibly powerful things in the world but their gentle nature makes them highly suited to treat the stubborn, chronic cases. however my research has pointed out a few bacteria that seem to be resistant to not only all herbs but also ..... so i don't know what the answer is there..... actually i have a few ideas.you need to read the research and quit thinking you know everything.you also need to study Dr hunter's paper a little more carefully ------ he specifically mentions IBS -- IBS--- IBS as in .... he is talking about IBSyes that is correct -----IBS!**************************************************************************************


> quote: Lancet. 1998 Oct 10;352(9135):1187-9. Abnormal colonic fermentation in irritable bowel syndrome.King TS, Elia M, Hunter JO.Department of Gastroenterology, Addenbrooke's Hospital, Cambridge, UK.BACKGROUND: The cause of irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) is unknown. It may follow gastroenteritis *and be associated with an abnormal gut flora and with food intolerance. * Our study was designed to assess whether these factors were associated with colonic malfermentation. . *Fermentation may be an important factor in the pathogenesis of IBS.*


eric,sooner or later you just need to eat some crow and accept it.----


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

I have known about that study since it first came out. It is also now five years old. It also has desing flaws and problems in the research. That fermentation may upset the gut and be a trigger is pretty well know in IBS at this point. Fermentation May Be At Root Of Irritable Bowel Syndrome LONDON, ENGLAND -- Oct. 9, 1998 -- Irritable bowel syndrome IBS is one of the most common reasons that people go to see a gastroenterologist. People with this disorder experience intermittent bouts of abdominal pain, usually accompanied by diarrhoea or constipation. About half of patients with IBS report that certain foods make their symptoms worse. Why this might be so is unknown, but one theory is that these foods contain substances easily fermented by the bacteria normally found in the colon. To find out, Dr. T. S. King and colleagues from Cambridge, England, recruited 12 women to participate in an experiment. The results of the study appear in this weekï¿½s issue of The Lancet.Six of the women had IBS, and six had no gastrointestinal difficulties. All women adhered to two different diets, each for two weeks. One diet was a standard diet with normal western foods. The second was a diet often prescribed to IBS patients, which sometimes helps reduce their symptoms. This diet excludes beef, dairy products, all cereals except rice and restricts the consumption of foods with yeast, citrus fruits, caffeinated drinks and tap water. On the last day of each two-week diet, the women spent 24 hours under a plastic canopy allowing the investigators to sample the gases they produced, such as hydrogen and methane. Breath samples, which can be used to monitor a person's gas production, were also taken every 30 minutes during waking hours. All faeces passed during the final 72 hours of the diet were collected and analysed. Dr King and colleagues report that while on the standard diet, both groups of women produced about the same amount of gas. However, the IBS women produced more hydrogen and produced gas more rapidly, indicating an increase in fermentation. "In four of the six IBS patients, symptoms occurred when gas excretion was rapid," the investigators write. These patients were then put on the restricted diet and the rate at which they produced gas fell dramatically and their symptoms improved. Although it is unlikely that the gas alone causes discomfort, the investigators explained, it may be that other chemicals produced by fermentation are to blame, producing the symptoms either by causing local effects in the bowel, or perhaps affecting the nervous system. http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/b43b2.htm The inflammation seen in some IBS patients is localized to specifc cells and is not like Inflammatory bowel diseases.Inflammation, Infection, and Irritable Bowel Syndrome IBS: An Update http://www.fibromyalgiasupport.com/library...cle.cfm/id/4518


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## california123 (Jun 8, 2003)

Hi Eric,You know that I have been supportive of your efforts, but having followed this thread for way too many days, I have just one question--why do you bother trying to change the mind of people who would argue that human blood wasn't red if you said it was? Sometimes, when you ignore such people they just stop posting. Of course, we do have posters who will post to themselves repeatedly just to keep their thread going, but that should eventually bore people. Take care Eric.


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

Bonniei,I am just expressing myself. The words were appropriate to yours and others insulting behaviour. In fact I find flux's posts in particular are far more insulting than using a few curses here and there. As to the facism - apart from the moot point that mya arguments are more balanced and accurate than yours - that's what trying to control others beliefs and ideology is - the use of the word is accurate and appropriate, not emotive. Truth hurts sometimes - doesn't it?And bonniei - you amuse me too ! Thanks !!


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

this is from eric's post from above:


> quote: Although it is unlikely that the gas alone causes discomfort, the investigators explained, it may be that *other chemicals produced by fermentation are to blame, producing the symptoms either by causing local effects in the bowel, or perhaps affecting the nervous system. *


this is what i have believed for the longest time.bacterial and fungal toxins ( such as tartaric acid or any of the dozens and dozens...) are affecting the nervous system.i believe that there is much more to it than this though.Eric,why would you post this information??? it goes against your basic belief that "bacteria and yeast are not involved in IBS -- because if they were involved our researchers would know about it"why would you sink your own ship with this information?----are you finally admitting that maybe microorganism toxins could play a role?---california123...abc ... 123... you and me -- sing it!, toxins can and will affect mood states. they can cause anxiety. it all depends on what and how much is being produced and how effective your liver is able to process them. drinking can impair this process.----


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Ah meckle, I have been hurt many times but I don't give the power to anyone lightly to hurt me. I am afraid your words have just as much power to hurt me as the power of yeast to control my thoughts.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

oh great -- now see what you did. i've got this jackson 5 song going off in my head -- non-stop!


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

Bonniei -huh ?I wasn't trying to hurt anyone - quite the opposite in fact.But once again - huh ? Your post made no sense.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

> quote:Truth* hurts *sometimes - doesn't it?


Probably now it makes more sense? I thought you had atleast some common intelligence meckle.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

And you were a medical student meckle? Perhaps this is the reason why you had to give it up your lack of intelligence; That's ok not everyone gets as far as I have done -got a Ph D in Math from a top notch university.


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

Ah sweet bonniei....I try to help you by showing you the truth . if it hurts that isn't my fault - that's your own illusions tht are hurting you !!!I like you too though !!


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

Who said I gave it up ? No didn't - I am taking a year out - but that's for me - that's smart honey !!I started a phd once - I quit because it was completely uninspiring and I could do the same job in industry for more money.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

I am afraid you are incoherent and apart from the F**k off you truly make no sense. Atleast I have a decent conversation with *many* on the board.


> sweet bonnie[/b]fu too.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Ah but did you try Math? Or did you take a year off after learning to add 2plus 2?


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

ok bonniei - chill out. I wasn't directing that at you personally. Also I'm Irish it's part of our cultural expression - if you took offence to everytime some said that to you in Ireland - well you be offended all the time.Ok so - apologies if you feel offended. I wasn't meaning to offend anyone - merely trying to display how irritated I get by some people's posts sometimes.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Apology Accepted. I already grinned at you the last time.


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

No year off after learning 2plus2.But you know I thought after curing my IBS and going through some nasty side-effects and having a new functioning digestive system - and passing my med exams despite being very ill - it would be nice to chill out and see the world a bit before going back to the studies! I think I earned that for myself.And I'm not so bad at the auld maths myself bon.


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

Thanks bon !














I've been grinning too !!


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Yes I understand. I am afraid I haven't been able to do much with my PhD myself because of my illness.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

the evidence continues to pile up that SOME people (NOT all) --but some people-- have issues with either bacterial dysbiosis or bacteria + fungal dysbiosis.it seems that i may have been correct when i suggested that some people might have diminished pancreatic enzymes. the enzymes are important to keep microorganism populations under control.Eric,this is not a threat to your brain-gut theory. If anything it highly supports it. It is well known that the metabolites of bacteria and fungus can and do affect nervous tissue and brain function. the alcohol is well known to have an impact on our nerves and brain (and the alcohol is just 1 out of a couple hundred chemicals that are produced by bacteria and fungus).**************************************************************************************************Gastric Acid Production, Pancreatic Secretions and Blood Levels of Higher Alcohols in Patients with Fungal-type Dysbiosis of the GutJ. Nutr. & Env. Medicine. 2002; 12(2): 107-112Eaton K.K., Gaier H.C., Howard M., McLaren-Howard J and Reid LAbstractPurpose: Patients with gut dysbioses are clinically difficult to distinguish from those with food intolerance. The variety known as fungal-type is associated with the generation of small amounts of ethanol in the blood. A recent study has shown abnormalities of histidine metabolism. In view of this, gastric function was studied. This also provided data on pancreatic function.Design: Two groups of newly referred patients, with similar symptom profiles, attending two clinicians were studied. Group A (42 patients) had positive ethanol fermentation tests: group B (37 patients) did not. There were 20 healthy control subjects. Levels of higher alcohols, short-chain fatty acids, gastric acid production and pancreatic exocrine secretions were measured and compared statistically.Materials and Methods: Ehtanol, higher alcohols and short-chain fatty acids were measured by gas-liquid chromatography. Gastric acid production, emptying time and pancreatic function were measured using a swallowed transponder.Results: A significant number of group A patients had elevated levels of higher alcohols; all of these also showed excess short-chain fatty acids. Group B patients showed similar findings for both; these figures were not statistically significant. However, as compared with group B, group A patients were less likely to show lower levels of gastric acid and/or pancreatic enzyme production and these results were statistically highly significant.Conclusions: As these findings show minimal effects on stomach and duodenum, *it is suggested that fungal-type dysbiosis is largely an ileal condition.* For these patients, the presence of elevated levels of higher alcohols with a positive ethanol test is a better indicator of disease severity.******************************************************************************************************************A COMPARISON OF LACTULOSE BREATH HYDROGEN MEASUREMENTS WITH GUT FERMENTATION PROFILES IN PATIENTS WITH FUNGAL-TYPE DYSBIOSIS.J. Nutr. & Env. Med. 2001; 11: 33-42.Eaton, Keith Kenneth, The Princess Margaret Hospital, Osborne Road, Windsor, Berks. SL4 3SJ.Chan,Rebecca.Howard, Mark Andrew.McLaren-Howard, John Michael, Biolab Medical Unit, The Stone House, 9 Weymouth Street, London W1W 6DB.Background. Fungal-type dysbiosis is still an unproven diagnosis. Patients are polysymptomatic, *but most have symptoms of irritable bowel. * Treatment, using a diet low in fermentable, yeasty and mouldy foods with/or without antifungal drugs, is often rewarding. Patients with the condition also show elevated blood ethanol levels after fasting glucose challenge Because of this a fungal cause has been suggested. These features do not suggest a bacterial overgrowth. Hydrogen generation, on the other hand, is a bacterial fermentation product and would be expected only if a bacterial cause were present. It was therefore decided to compare ethanol and hydrogen production.Methods. Newly referred polysymptomatic untreated adult patients were investigated in a clinic for allergic and environmental diseases. Patients were subjected to two laboratory investigations: a gut fermentation profile which measured ethanol, higher alcohols and short-chain fatty acids, and a lactulose breath hydrogen. These were performed after the initial consultation and reported at the first follow-up visit.Results. Two groups were studied. The first produced excess ethanol (n=18) and the second (n=20) did not. Both groups included patients producing hydrogen. There was no statistical correlation between ethanol and hydrogen production.Conclusions. If fungal-type dysbiosis is solely due to yeasts, our ethanol positive group should not produce hydrogen, but our ethanol negative group should. If the conventional view, that yeasts do not produce hydrogen as a fermentation product, is correct, *it appears from the commonness of breath hydrogen positives in this series that bacterial fermentation is in some way implicated in fungal-type dysbiosis.* ----


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## Jenkins (Feb 15, 2002)

Eric--**When there is a connection between candida and IBS, that is actually quantified and replicated in IBS research you will hear about it for sure!**You do not listen or I do not explain wellI am saying alot of people are being told they have IBS with little more than a flip of the docs hand. Some people who come here may NOT have IBS. But since that is their diagnosis what are they to do?? I have intestinal difficulties but I also have a ton of other symptoms that my doc flips off as anxiety. Thing is it all started very suddenly three years ago making be believe i have picked up something that is makng me toxic bringing about the sudden anxiety problems (these were literally almost overnight dizziness, lightheadedness over all feeling of yuck daily and lots more) but since my doc refuses to listen to me and my saga and has thrown about 7-8 different antidepressants at me I feel as I got to go it alone. The antidepressants have all failed --usually the side effects are so bad I cannot take them for more than a week lest I lose my job staying home all the time. So I guess I keep trying to remind you that not everyone here may truly have IBS and I still believe that all IBS cases are individual-since the therapies for IBS seem to work for some and not others. Also can you not wrap your mind around the thought that in ten years there could be 50 different organic reasons for "IBS" not just one?? Just take a moment and think about these things. All I am asking is that you accept the fact that some here may not actually have IBS but they have no where else to go since their docs flippantly say IBS And send them on their way. So by coming here they may find out there are other things besides antidepressants and all the other drugs the docs give them. When you have tried them all and none of them work you gotta keep searching. And I am notpreaching about yeast here I am simply stating there could be other things.Jenkins


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

> quote: but most have symptoms of irritable bowel


Not by Rome criteria. They do not mention how they diagnosed them


> quote: it *appears* from the commonness of breath hydrogen positives in this series that bacterial fermentation is in some way implicated in fungal-type dysbiosis.


Again very ambivalernt. It could be bacterial overgrowth and not candida


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Jenkins, if you read my posts and the abstracts I am providing, you will see that there are many functional conditions and problems that go along with IBS or overlap IBS. That they actually know about and can treat or manage for most people. There are also many organic diseases that can mimick IBS and would show red flag symptoms. A person can also have both.This info is for a more accurate diagnoses of problems concurent or just IBS. That's part of the point.If you have a doctors that dimiss you its really important to find another that takes you seriously and works more closely with you. I don't know where you live, but we can help with finding a good one in most areas.But the bb here shouldn't be a tool to diagnose yourself with every crazy theory supplied by Kel who doesn't even understand her own theories.So if you take the rome criteria back to a doctor and specific questions and tell them to diagnose you using that, the odds after six months and no red flags of an organic disease are very low, using that diagnoses method.There are also many other means of IBS management besides antidepressants if you read up on IBS.Patients drive medications for IBS just as much as doctors prescibe them, many want a pill and a cure and find later there is no magic pill or cure.We also don't know if meckles treatment was what worked or he went into remission, on its own which it can do. One or two people are not enough to draw any conclusions on anything here.Working on diet and lifestyle changes are still the most effective way to treat IBS. The doctors for the most part want to see people get better that way before meds, but the patient might be adimant to have a "pill cure." Or they might not understand what the doctor is telling them or why they say try treatments. So the treatment fails and the person thinks that wasn't the problem. And yes some doctors just give meds and no explanations. Which is to bad really. I agree with that and it is taking a long time for IBS research to get back to regular MDs.we seem to be getting attacked by supplying the most up to date IBS research and what they already know. You would think that would interest people with IBS.Everybody is free to treat their bodies any way they want, but you would think by reading and learning all the research they have on IBS, they would have a better change of treating it effectively and knowing what the problems really are, but people should still not self diagnose themselves. The digestive system is way to complex and misunderstood. I would rather personally see people accurately diagnosed and treated then to see them go off and treat something they don't have for years by self diagnosing themselves off the internet.perhaps by checking sources for accuracy and by reading the material, it will help to learn and figure out what problems a person really has and how to treat and manage them.The understanding of IBS is getting better and better all the time. To ignore the information is in my book is self defeating.Even here the brain gut "theory" is not well accepted, after years of the proof, pictures, physiology explanations, and a major body of basic science on it, even though the brain and the gut communicate and that is a fact not a theory. This is not a competition. The brain and the gut are both operational to cause IBS symptoms.


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## DavidLA (Nov 28, 2000)

Kel& other Opened Minded People,-This might be of interest to you. Dr. RobertYoung has a book called Sick and Tired: Reclaim Your Inner Terrain. Dr. Young has a Ph.D in Micro-Biology & has been study'g for the last 15 years how over-growths of Yeast-Fungal/Bacteria effects your digestive tract/body.He suggest 13 Nutritional ingredients/supplements that have been proven to help along with a srict 30 day diet program.Here's some of the supplementsCaprylic ExtractUndecylenic ExtractOlive Leaf ExtractGarlicBromelainNoni FruitThioctic/Lipoic ExtractChlorine DioxideOmega 3 and Omega 6 essential fatty acidsAntimycotoxic/Antioxidant enzymesOrgantic GermaniumN-Acetyl cysteineIn his book he has many images of changes that have take place before and after treatments. I really feel that the field of Micro-Biology maybe where the big breakthroughs may come. Waswondering how many of these have you tried??or a familar with??


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## floridian2 (Dec 1, 2003)

No chlorine dioxide for me, thanks. But some of the other ingredients sound reasonable for nutritional support of the gut.


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