# I have proof my IBS (and others) was caused by Fluoride(In tea)



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

About 12 years ago I experienced a total cure of my IBS (Irritable Bowel Syndrome) an intractable, mystery disease that now affects up to one third of Britons. Good news you might think? The problem is that a garden accident led to my discovering the cause as Fluoride! (I have proof that it was the cause).Recently I discovered that I am not unique. I have spoken to a doctor/lecturer in Analytical Chemistry at Surrey University, Guildford. He has done work on Fluoride, and he found that Fluoride toothpaste caused his own IBS. (He is not much of a tea drinker). When his symptoms recurred he discovered his wife had bought Fluoride toothpaste again! Both he, and a 2 leading Consultant/Specialists on IBS that I have corresponded with on this issue, do not dismiss this link out of hand. Rather they confirm that nobody has looked for it! (Even though the evidence that Fluoride attacks the gut exists)Whilst these experts at least take me seriously I seem to be banging my head against a wall of disbelief or apathy with politicians and the media. I feel they see me as an "anti-Fluoride crank". This is NOT the case. I was never anti -Fluoride until I was forced into that position by the series of events I describe.Please read my story and take me seriously.I was hit in the mouth with a large steel stake, breaking teeth. This meant a few days without hot drinks because of my injuries. To my utter amazement I realised I was suddenly totally free of the Irritable Bowel Syndrome that had plagued me daily for about 10 years with bloating, tummy cramps and anal mucus.When I was better, I tested, and retested various beveragesï¿½..and it was tea, my beloved tea, that would bring back the cramps within an hour or two every time. I researched tea to discover why it might cause IBS. Most notable was that tea contained more fluoride than any other edible plant. I found out that a symptom of fluoride-poisoning is gut pain and remembered that Canadian researchers had blamed toothpaste for IBS. So, out went the fluoride toothpaste as well as the tea! I went from daily gut pain to total cure!Since that day I have been IBS-freeï¿½ï¿½.except for a period when I went to live in Feering, Essex. At that time I could only blame tea for certain. But the symptoms crept back, so I enquired of the local water supplier if they fluoridated. ï¿½No we donï¿½tï¿½ they replied, ï¿½but you have the highest natural fluoride in the country and dilution is used to get it down to the WHO maximum!ï¿½ I changed to bottled water and the IBS totally disappeared again! This may not amount to a full-blown ï¿½double-blind medical trial,ï¿½but it did give a ï¿½blindï¿½ corroborative proof. I had moved to many areas at that period. I did not have, and could not have, anticipated an IBS recurrence, since the water at Feering was not even ï¿½officiallyï¿½ fluoridated.I pride myself on a rigorously scientific mind so I was prepared to believe that (however unlikely) it was only my IBS that was caused by fluoride. I remained suspicious however, because the enormous rise in IBS was ï¿½coincidentï¿½ with the rise in fluoride-ingestion from water, toothpastes, pesticides, non-stick cookware and mouthwashes.Then I was dismayed to learn, a couple of years ago, that the knowledge that fluoride causes IBS has been in the scientific domain for a long time! Professor A. K. Susheela director of the Fluorosis Research and Rural Development Foundation in New Delhi has done 30 years research in this field and is a senior advisor to the Indian government.She, and her team, are one of the foremost authorities on Fluoride having published 70 papers on the subject!She proved how long-term fluoride intake damaged the gastric mucosa and microvilli leading to IBS. There are also various papers that show that Fluoride affects muscle tissue/function (therefore peristalsis?)Notwithstanding this there has been a scientific/medical tendency to be pro-Fluoride in order to appear ï¿½anti-crankï¿½.Nevertheless some scientist/doctors now accept a ï¿½Fluoride-induced non-ulcerative dyspepsiaï¿½. It amounts to ï¿½Fluoride induced IBSï¿½. (IBS is a catchall, default description for a collection of symptoms. When a cause is found, it gets a new name!) In her evidence to the British Minister of Health 1998 Professor Susheelaï¿½highlighted the gastro-intestinal changes from excess fluoride. This"non-ulcer dyspeptic" complaint includes nausea, vomiting, cramps, gas,constipation followed by diarrhoea. She concluded that, "such symptoms wererelated to fluoride ingested via water, food or even dental products". (See attachment)Whatever we call it, this disease made me very ill. I do not want it again. This is a scientifically documented pathology. I am in total remission only as long as I avoid significant Fluoride. Recent Taiwanese research, published in ï¿½Natureï¿½ magazine found huge variations in the Fluoride content of different teas. This means control of the Fluoride dose is impossible. The concentration of Fluoride in tea could be as much as 41 times the optimum to reduce dental fillings! Even this dental ï¿½optimumï¿½ is not necessarily good for our general health. If you drink tea you are probably already getting too much Fluoride, as I certainly was. But we can choose to avoid tea we cannot avoid water. It would seem that the only argument for Fluoridation is the dental health argument.But even this is hotly contested. I can do no better than refer you to a paper published in The Irish Medical Journal by Dr. Don MacAuley (Dental Surgeon). He was a supporter of Fluoridation but changed his mind only after looking deeper into Fluoride at the request of some of his patients. His dental-school training had not supplied these perspectives. He outlines some of the multitudinous toxic affects of this poison. (It has seems naï¿½ve to me, to assume that a substance that has profound effects on teeth and bone would have no other effects on our bodies, particularly on the digestive tract through which it passes). This would not be so alarming were it not such a powerful poison. (Please find his paper attached.) Even if the dental health argument were uncontested, it would not justify ignoring all the powerful arguments against Fluorideï¿½s effects on other components of human health.The American ï¿½Clinical Toxicology of Commercial Productsï¿½ (5th. Edition) rates fluoride only slightly less toxic than arsenic, and more toxic than lead! And yet their Environmental Protection Agency permits 250 times more Fluoride than lead, in water, because America fluoridates. Is this logical?Moreover there is a goal of zero to be achieved for the, less poisonous, lead! If we found that lead or arsenic hardened teeth would we add them to water? Well Fluoride is just as toxic, with scores of proven detrimental effects on the body. Why are we pursuing Fluoridation when medical/expert opinion is becoming more sceptical about it, and whilst Ireland is considering reversing Fluoridation and 98% of Europe is against it?The Fluoride used has no drug approval; in fact it is an industrial waste, from fertiliser or smelting-plant chimney-scrubbers. It contains heavy metal impurities including Arsenic, Lead and Antimony as well as Uranium 238. And it is illegal to discharge it into the environment, or dump it at seaï¿½ except if your government asks your water supplier to dose you with it! It was one thing for Americans to solve a toxic waste problem in this manner, but to export this idea to tea-drinking nations like Britain and Ireland was downright irresponsible.Flouride is a thyroid suppressor, formally used to treat over-active thyroid glands. There are literally hundreds of studies on the thyroid-toxicity of fluoride. Furthermore, Chlorine (which is added to our water) and mercury (which is in our teeth-fillings) are also thyroid suppressors. The aluminium in tea enhances this effect. We seem to be conducting a multi-pronged assault on the thyroids of a whole generation and many people claim that a large percentage of the population is suffering from sub-clinically low thyroid function. Research, published in 2001, also showed that fluoride calcified the vital pineal gland in the brain with potentially far-reaching consequences.This compulsory mass-medication breaks every rule of medical prescribing, I will not been seen nor examined, my medical history is not taken, no account is taken of existing, or past, intake of this substance, its known toxicity and side-effects (or individual susceptibility) are disregarded, I do not need it, it does me great harm, and I will be forced to take it against my will. I do not believe for one minute that I am unique. Apart from the Doctor/Lecturer mentioned above, my own daughter had chronic gut pain until we refused her tea and changed the children to Fluoride-free toothpaste (I am not a ï¿½crankï¿½. I had even kept the children on FluorideToothpasteï¿½.now this appears naive) Because of Government moves on fluoridation I feel condemned to get IBS again at some point in the future, so I cannot remain complacent. The question for me is how to move it forward?I feel the best chance is to publicise "the possibility of a link between Fluoride and IBS".This would provoke enough IBS sufferers to conduct their personal trials (They need to cut out tea as well as obvious F sources). The weight of anecdotes, which, I believe, will ensue, will generate the interest and demand for proper, conclusive research. (This link is documented by professor Susheela, and patient information, such as supplied by The Digestive Disorders Foundation, cites ï¿½teaï¿½ as a possible cause)Please let me assure you, once more, of the absolute veracity of my experience. If Fluoride is at the root of much IBS it may take a very long time to discover it.... if we do nothing. The kind of "flook" events that led to my rejection of tea, followed by my unanticipated relapse on moving into a high natural Fluoride water supply area, will be very rare. The fact that people ingest F from diverse sources also means "accidental exclusions" will be rare. So where will the "anecdotal push" come from?I feel so frustrated, knowing that millions might be helped, but that, on the contrary, government plans to Fluoridate will cause more suffering.Yours trulyLeonard HarleySuggested Protocol for Fluoride exclusionIf you have IBS, and want to see if Fluoride is causing it, try giving up tea, fluoride toothpastes/mouthwashes, kelp, non-stick coated cookware, and fluoridated water. (Use bottled, and donï¿½t soak in the bath, in Fluoridated areas) Consult your doctor about Fluoride-containing medicines such as Prozac. Perhaps you will be totally cured as I was. You might also buy a bottle of tamarind paste/concentrate from an Indian grocers. Tamarind helps eliminates fluoride from the body. Indeed the recent trend to replace tamarind with tomatoes in cooking has been blamed for the increase of fluorosis in India.


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Further to my story, above, Re: IBS/Fluoride. If you exclude tea/Fluoride and find significant relief or a cure. Please send me your accounts so that I can pass them on to Consultants. Please also tell your Doctors/Carers.


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Further to my story, above, Re: IBS/Fluoride. If you exclude tea/Fluoride and find significant relief or a cure. Please send me your accounts so that I can pass them on to Consultants. Please also tell your Doctors/Carers.


----------



## K9Mom (Sep 20, 1999)

Why is kelp listed in the things to avoid?


----------



## K9Mom (Sep 20, 1999)

Why is kelp listed in the things to avoid?


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Fluoride attacks the Thyroid as well as causing IBS. It may be tempting to take Kelp to obtain iodine to support the thyroid. But Kelp is a relatively high source of Fluoride as well, so where does that get you? Fluorine and Iodine are both halines but Fluorine displaces the Iodine that the thyroid requires. Most seafoods contain some natural organic salts of Fluorine but not as much as kelp. Personally the mere removal of tea transformed my life. Tea is massively high in Fluoride. Look up the Taiwanese research in "Nature" magazine. (Feb 2003 I believe).


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Fluoride attacks the Thyroid as well as causing IBS. It may be tempting to take Kelp to obtain iodine to support the thyroid. But Kelp is a relatively high source of Fluoride as well, so where does that get you? Fluorine and Iodine are both halines but Fluorine displaces the Iodine that the thyroid requires. Most seafoods contain some natural organic salts of Fluorine but not as much as kelp. Personally the mere removal of tea transformed my life. Tea is massively high in Fluoride. Look up the Taiwanese research in "Nature" magazine. (Feb 2003 I believe).


----------



## K9Mom (Sep 20, 1999)

I have a thyroid friend that has done some massive research on flouride and the thyroid. She too believes that it is detrimental to us and possibly one of the triggers of autoimmune thyroid disease.You are right about kelp and the thyroid. Kelp is so very high in iodine it can make us overproduce thyroid hormone and make one hyperthyroid....or trigger autoimmune thyroid disease.


----------



## K9Mom (Sep 20, 1999)

I have a thyroid friend that has done some massive research on flouride and the thyroid. She too believes that it is detrimental to us and possibly one of the triggers of autoimmune thyroid disease.You are right about kelp and the thyroid. Kelp is so very high in iodine it can make us overproduce thyroid hormone and make one hyperthyroid....or trigger autoimmune thyroid disease.


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

len,Your post certainly interests me for the reason my wife and I eat exactly the same diet and have done so for many years, yet I suffer from the typical alternating bloating, gas, C, then D, and so it goes in cycles.She never has a problem with her digestion.The one thing that is different is, she drinks coffee exclusively and I drink at least 90% tea as my preferred beverage.I am certainly going to try kicking the tea and will let you know the result.---------------Redclaw.


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

len,Your post certainly interests me for the reason my wife and I eat exactly the same diet and have done so for many years, yet I suffer from the typical alternating bloating, gas, C, then D, and so it goes in cycles.She never has a problem with her digestion.The one thing that is different is, she drinks coffee exclusively and I drink at least 90% tea as my preferred beverage.I am certainly going to try kicking the tea and will let you know the result.---------------Redclaw.


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)




----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)




----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

len,Gee, I forgot to say, our water supply is fluoridated and I drink quite a lot of it in addition to many cups of tea every day!!! Maybe I'm being mega-dosed with fluoride?







I'm going to have to find a reliable drinking water supply too, now.-------------Redclaw.


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

len,Gee, I forgot to say, our water supply is fluoridated and I drink quite a lot of it in addition to many cups of tea every day!!! Maybe I'm being mega-dosed with fluoride?







I'm going to have to find a reliable drinking water supply too, now.-------------Redclaw.


----------



## mxz583 (Mar 19, 2000)

Well I hate to rain on the parade but we all know that in Texas they don't drink water. Well without whiskey mixed in that is. Now as far as brushing their teeth with fluoride tooth paste. Have you seen pictures of people from Texas? Heck one tube of tooth paste would last a year in Norb's trailer park. Ha HaWell every photo I've seen of the people of England they need fluoride real bad.Tim(Yes I'm Joking)


----------



## mxz583 (Mar 19, 2000)

Well I hate to rain on the parade but we all know that in Texas they don't drink water. Well without whiskey mixed in that is. Now as far as brushing their teeth with fluoride tooth paste. Have you seen pictures of people from Texas? Heck one tube of tooth paste would last a year in Norb's trailer park. Ha HaWell every photo I've seen of the people of England they need fluoride real bad.Tim(Yes I'm Joking)


----------



## norbert46 (Feb 20, 2001)

Tim, I go to the Dental Hygienist twice a year for a cleaning. They never told me I have to brush in between visits?







I have heard that Maine folks who are camping in winter just find a Moose dropping to brush with? Maybe some use Moose droppings when at home?







Norb


----------



## norbert46 (Feb 20, 2001)

Tim, I go to the Dental Hygienist twice a year for a cleaning. They never told me I have to brush in between visits?








I have heard that Maine folks who are camping in winter just find a Moose dropping to brush with? Maybe some use Moose droppings when at home?







Norb


----------



## Paula J. (Nov 23, 2001)

This is fascinating, but is it only some people who are sensitive? My dog has a lot of gas, and does have C/D periodically, but mostly gas.Most everybody has fluoride in the water, so drinking tea, or coffee made with the tap water would have fluoride in it.


----------



## Paula J. (Nov 23, 2001)

This is fascinating, but is it only some people who are sensitive? My dog has a lot of gas, and does have C/D periodically, but mostly gas.Most everybody has fluoride in the water, so drinking tea, or coffee made with the tap water would have fluoride in it.


----------



## Arnie W (Oct 22, 2003)

You would probably have to go for bottled or filtered water if you're unsure about your water supply. What effect would flouridated water have when cooking rice or vegetables?And what is it with non-stick cookware?


----------



## Arnie W (Oct 22, 2003)

You would probably have to go for bottled or filtered water if you're unsure about your water supply. What effect would flouridated water have when cooking rice or vegetables?And what is it with non-stick cookware?


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:I was hit in the mouth with a large steel stake, breaking teeth.


I don't believe your story.BTW, flouride is *safe* and does *not* cause IBS.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:I was hit in the mouth with a large steel stake, breaking teeth.


I don't believe your story.BTW, flouride is *safe* and does *not* cause IBS.


----------



## Linda mac (Feb 24, 2002)

Although I am appreciative of your post, I can not agree with your premise. I have had IBS-D all my life. I grew up in Scotland, but was not allowed to drink tea as a child. My Father preferred a toothpaste containing Eucalyptus Oil and Glycerin of Thymol, and we used it exclusively.No fluorideWhen I first came to the US, I couldn't find any decent teas, so drank coffee for years...and since the water here is so horrible, I have drank only bottled water for years and years, and have a water filtration system in my home.I began drinking tea again when I was able to get the British and Scottish blends I prefer...and have noticed no increase in my symptoms associated with Tea.Ours is a mysterious though common condition; I have come to believe that my worst attacks are stress related, although there are certain fruits and vegetables which I don't tolerate well, and I cannot drink alcohol.BTW, I am essentially in remission right now..and I have a large mug of strong tea every morning, and brush my teeth twice daily with a fluoride tootpaste.Luilu


----------



## Linda mac (Feb 24, 2002)

Although I am appreciative of your post, I can not agree with your premise. I have had IBS-D all my life. I grew up in Scotland, but was not allowed to drink tea as a child. My Father preferred a toothpaste containing Eucalyptus Oil and Glycerin of Thymol, and we used it exclusively.No fluorideWhen I first came to the US, I couldn't find any decent teas, so drank coffee for years...and since the water here is so horrible, I have drank only bottled water for years and years, and have a water filtration system in my home.I began drinking tea again when I was able to get the British and Scottish blends I prefer...and have noticed no increase in my symptoms associated with Tea.Ours is a mysterious though common condition; I have come to believe that my worst attacks are stress related, although there are certain fruits and vegetables which I don't tolerate well, and I cannot drink alcohol.BTW, I am essentially in remission right now..and I have a large mug of strong tea every morning, and brush my teeth twice daily with a fluoride tootpaste.Luilu


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

Paula,'Most everybody' does not have fluoride in their water supply on a world wide basis.Luilu and others...I'm not jumping to a conclusion that I am a fluoride victim, but when I consider I drink fluoridated water all day every day, I drink up to 10 cups of tea a day, I use fluoride toothpaste, swim for more than an hour each day in fluoridated water and probably ingest fluoride in other forms I'm unaware of, I think it is worth my checking this out. Add to this the possibility I may have a low tolerence for it and I could be receiving toxic doses every day.Flux assures us the level in drinking water is safe, and that may be so if drinking water were the only source.Perhaps Flux in his wisdom can tell us what the TOTAL safe daily intake from all sources is?---------------Redclaw.


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

Paula,'Most everybody' does not have fluoride in their water supply on a world wide basis.Luilu and others...I'm not jumping to a conclusion that I am a fluoride victim, but when I consider I drink fluoridated water all day every day, I drink up to 10 cups of tea a day, I use fluoride toothpaste, swim for more than an hour each day in fluoridated water and probably ingest fluoride in other forms I'm unaware of, I think it is worth my checking this out. Add to this the possibility I may have a low tolerence for it and I could be receiving toxic doses every day.Flux assures us the level in drinking water is safe, and that may be so if drinking water were the only source.Perhaps Flux in his wisdom can tell us what the TOTAL safe daily intake from all sources is?---------------Redclaw.


----------



## Stace (Sep 20, 2000)

I would approach this with an open mind. Anything is possible. We are all different and have different sensitivities and triggers. Could be that fluoride is a trigger for Redclaw.


----------



## Stace (Sep 20, 2000)

I would approach this with an open mind. Anything is possible. We are all different and have different sensitivities and triggers. Could be that fluoride is a trigger for Redclaw.


----------



## mxz583 (Mar 19, 2000)

I know what triggers Redclaw and it isn't in water. (Mango juice)My water comes from the ground. No Fluoride and it doesn't travel thru 100 year old pipes. One town over is where they get the water for Poland Spring Bottled Water.Tim


----------



## mxz583 (Mar 19, 2000)

I know what triggers Redclaw and it isn't in water. (Mango juice)My water comes from the ground. No Fluoride and it doesn't travel thru 100 year old pipes. One town over is where they get the water for Poland Spring Bottled Water.Tim


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

Tim, What's your trigger, Moose Joose?







Some underground water contains naturally occurring fluoride so I wouldn't be so sure your's has none unless tests confirm it.There is a town in our state where all the kids were getting badly discoloured teeth and it was found to be from very high levels of natural fluoride in the ground water supply. They had to change to some other source for water.Mango Juice! Yummy!!---------------Redclaw.


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

Tim, What's your trigger, Moose Joose?







Some underground water contains naturally occurring fluoride so I wouldn't be so sure your's has none unless tests confirm it.There is a town in our state where all the kids were getting badly discoloured teeth and it was found to be from very high levels of natural fluoride in the ground water supply. They had to change to some other source for water.Mango Juice! Yummy!!---------------Redclaw.


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Reply to Flux. Hi, Why don't you believe my story? I, to, have no axe to grind. I just don't understand your reference to "posts by Lel1059". What is that?I feels like an unfair slur!Every word of my story is true. The bare bones of it are verifiable from my medical records and my family can verify the rest.What evidence have you to doubt me?You say "Fluoride is safe". That is demonstrably untrue. Check out its toxicity rating for yourself and then tell me ?Nothing, so toxic, can be "safe" full stop. The most that can be said of such poisons is that ..."at such and such a dose, there is no evidence(so far) of any significant harmful effect (that has been looked for)"?In fact because of tea consumption, and its variable F content, there is NO CONTROL of the dosage of this poison. The very high toxicity of Fluoride is absolutely incontestable. Moreover the link between IBS and Fluoride has not been discounted, IT HAS NOT BEEN TESTED.Professor Susheela has spent 30 years reasearching Fluoride and she says plainly that Fluoride causes IBS.The advocates of Fluoride are Dentists. They are experts on teeth NOT Fluoride. Biochemists are the experts on Fluoride and all its noxious effects on the human body.Have you never thought it odd that, something more poisonous than lead, could, at a certain dose, radically alter teeth AND HAVE NO OTHER EFFECTS ON OUR BIOLOGY?I changed my mind about Fluoride because of what happened to me.In the end all I am saying is, "Try it".Including you Flux


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Reply to Flux. Hi, Why don't you believe my story? I, to, have no axe to grind. I just don't understand your reference to "posts by Lel1059". What is that?I feels like an unfair slur!Every word of my story is true. The bare bones of it are verifiable from my medical records and my family can verify the rest.What evidence have you to doubt me?You say "Fluoride is safe". That is demonstrably untrue. Check out its toxicity rating for yourself and then tell me ?Nothing, so toxic, can be "safe" full stop. The most that can be said of such poisons is that ..."at such and such a dose, there is no evidence(so far) of any significant harmful effect (that has been looked for)"?In fact because of tea consumption, and its variable F content, there is NO CONTROL of the dosage of this poison. The very high toxicity of Fluoride is absolutely incontestable. Moreover the link between IBS and Fluoride has not been discounted, IT HAS NOT BEEN TESTED.Professor Susheela has spent 30 years reasearching Fluoride and she says plainly that Fluoride causes IBS.The advocates of Fluoride are Dentists. They are experts on teeth NOT Fluoride. Biochemists are the experts on Fluoride and all its noxious effects on the human body.Have you never thought it odd that, something more poisonous than lead, could, at a certain dose, radically alter teeth AND HAVE NO OTHER EFFECTS ON OUR BIOLOGY?I changed my mind about Fluoride because of what happened to me.In the end all I am saying is, "Try it".Including you Flux


----------



## mxz583 (Mar 19, 2000)

One or two people mean nothing. Just because you feel better doesn't mean Fluoride was to blame for your IBS. There could be other things that have changed like stress levels just for one example. That is why they do studies to prove if something works. Do you have any idea how many people come on this board with some "Cure" every year? I like some others here have IBS because of something we ate or drank. I got mine from eating at a restaurant in Northern Maine. I was eating Dinner with a friend and we both ended up in the Hospital for five days. We both responded to the antibiotics. My friend is fine now but I'm stuck with IBS. Dr. Drossman (Co-director of the UNC Center for Functional GI and Motility disorders) told me that the infection triggered the IBS. My friend wasn't prone to IBS so he turned out fine.Redclaw just because I live in Maine doesn't mean I don't have my water tested.Tim


----------



## mxz583 (Mar 19, 2000)

One or two people mean nothing. Just because you feel better doesn't mean Fluoride was to blame for your IBS. There could be other things that have changed like stress levels just for one example. That is why they do studies to prove if something works. Do you have any idea how many people come on this board with some "Cure" every year? I like some others here have IBS because of something we ate or drank. I got mine from eating at a restaurant in Northern Maine. I was eating Dinner with a friend and we both ended up in the Hospital for five days. We both responded to the antibiotics. My friend is fine now but I'm stuck with IBS. Dr. Drossman (Co-director of the UNC Center for Functional GI and Motility disorders) told me that the infection triggered the IBS. My friend wasn't prone to IBS so he turned out fine.Redclaw just because I live in Maine doesn't mean I don't have my water tested.Tim


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

Tim,Len is not proclaiming his experience proves everyone with IBS symptoms is suffering fluoride poisoning.What you are overlooking here, Tim, is Len is not offering a cure as many do, in the form take "this magic potion (like mangosteen juice) and it will cure you."He is saying that if you are ingesting a toxic substance on a regular daily basis, it may be harming you without you realising it.So the two situations are entirely different!Isn't it feasable that daily overdoses of fluoride could have a similar effect on the digestive function as the bacteria which damaged your gut? If I eliminate as far as possible all the opportunities to ingest fluoride, and nothing changes with my symptoms, then nothing is lost, is it. On the other hand if my symptoms disappear over a sustained period, I will be another statistic to add to Len's story, and if Flux chooses to say he doesn't believe my story it will only prove to me what a charlatan he is.Besides, I asked Flux to tell us what the safe total daily intake of fluoride is, and so far no response.-----------------Redclaw


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

Tim,Len is not proclaiming his experience proves everyone with IBS symptoms is suffering fluoride poisoning.What you are overlooking here, Tim, is Len is not offering a cure as many do, in the form take "this magic potion (like mangosteen juice) and it will cure you."He is saying that if you are ingesting a toxic substance on a regular daily basis, it may be harming you without you realising it.So the two situations are entirely different!Isn't it feasable that daily overdoses of fluoride could have a similar effect on the digestive function as the bacteria which damaged your gut? If I eliminate as far as possible all the opportunities to ingest fluoride, and nothing changes with my symptoms, then nothing is lost, is it. On the other hand if my symptoms disappear over a sustained period, I will be another statistic to add to Len's story, and if Flux chooses to say he doesn't believe my story it will only prove to me what a charlatan he is.Besides, I asked Flux to tell us what the safe total daily intake of fluoride is, and so far no response.-----------------Redclaw


----------



## Guest (Dec 25, 2003)

I have to side with Flux on this one...odd as it feels...I use flouride toothpaste three times a day...drink flouidated water..and have for most of 56 years....I have IBS, which is just about completely dormant, save a flare up once in a while...I don't think flouride has a thing to do with IBS...I think its an emotionally triggered syndrome that presents in people with predisposition for digestive maladies. Now...flouride might well be a trigger substance in some people, but I hardly see it as a cause of flouride in all people, or even in most. Interesting supposition though.


----------



## Guest (Dec 25, 2003)

I have to side with Flux on this one...odd as it feels...I use flouride toothpaste three times a day...drink flouidated water..and have for most of 56 years....I have IBS, which is just about completely dormant, save a flare up once in a while...I don't think flouride has a thing to do with IBS...I think its an emotionally triggered syndrome that presents in people with predisposition for digestive maladies. Now...flouride might well be a trigger substance in some people, but I hardly see it as a cause of flouride in all people, or even in most. Interesting supposition though.


----------



## Elariel (Jan 1, 1999)

what flux said. if you really want to see that you need fluoride, stop using it and see what happens to your teeth


----------



## Elariel (Jan 1, 1999)

what flux said. if you really want to see that you need fluoride, stop using it and see what happens to your teeth


----------



## Stace (Sep 20, 2000)

> quote: if Flux chooses to say he doesn't believe my story it will only prove to me what a charlatan he is.


He proved that to me a long time ago. Just hang out in the Pain/Gas/Bloating forum.


----------



## Stace (Sep 20, 2000)

> quote: if Flux chooses to say he doesn't believe my story it will only prove to me what a charlatan he is.


He proved that to me a long time ago. Just hang out in the Pain/Gas/Bloating forum.


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

To Annie,The "flo" in "Teflon" refers to Fluoride.Regards Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

To Annie,The "flo" in "Teflon" refers to Fluoride.Regards Len


----------



## Guest (Dec 25, 2003)

Fact is, this Flouride theory is intriguing and could be a real factor...but NO one really knows one way or the other...so lets not get into a pissing contest about it...just take the info under advisement and use it if you can, or dismiss it if you have a mind to....fair enough?


----------



## Guest (Dec 25, 2003)

Fact is, this Flouride theory is intriguing and could be a real factor...but NO one really knows one way or the other...so lets not get into a pissing contest about it...just take the info under advisement and use it if you can, or dismiss it if you have a mind to....fair enough?


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Hi All,Look, I was brought up to believe the dentist and I brushed with Fluoride until I was 40. But dentists are NOT biochemists. Read what this Irish Doctor and Dentist discovered when some patients queried the advice he was dishing out. http://homepage.tinet.ie/~fluoridefree/cam...al-Sept2000.htm I'm not asking you to take my word for anything, I'm suggesting you test it. What's a few days without Tea, F-toothpaste and Fluoridated(or naturally high) water? All you risk is a total cure (or permanent 100% remission).But if you can't be bothered because you think I'm just making all this up, I challenge you to check out the science for yourself. BOTH sides. You've been brought up on a one-sided spin about Fluoride, check out the rest. Then see if its worth the test. Do you want to get better?Go to the pfpc website (If you want to read some science about tea & F, read the article "whats wrong with this picture?"). Or try the NPWA website in UK. Tons of links and enough science to at least raise a question in any OBJECTIVE mind.best regards to allI'm telling you the truthLen


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Hi All,Look, I was brought up to believe the dentist and I brushed with Fluoride until I was 40. But dentists are NOT biochemists. Read what this Irish Doctor and Dentist discovered when some patients queried the advice he was dishing out. http://homepage.tinet.ie/~fluoridefree/cam...al-Sept2000.htm I'm not asking you to take my word for anything, I'm suggesting you test it. What's a few days without Tea, F-toothpaste and Fluoridated(or naturally high) water? All you risk is a total cure (or permanent 100% remission).But if you can't be bothered because you think I'm just making all this up, I challenge you to check out the science for yourself. BOTH sides. You've been brought up on a one-sided spin about Fluoride, check out the rest. Then see if its worth the test. Do you want to get better?Go to the pfpc website (If you want to read some science about tea & F, read the article "whats wrong with this picture?"). Or try the NPWA website in UK. Tons of links and enough science to at least raise a question in any OBJECTIVE mind.best regards to allI'm telling you the truthLen


----------



## mxz583 (Mar 19, 2000)

They have Dentists in the UK? Ha HaTim


----------



## mxz583 (Mar 19, 2000)

They have Dentists in the UK? Ha HaTim


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Hi again,Have you never thought it very odd that up to 30% of our populations have this mstery disease we cause IBS?There is good science that redflags F as a cause of IBS and we are ingesting it , and NO, the studies on this are NOT being done. I know IBS Professors that would like them done. But they require funding and our Governments are Pro-Fluoride. That's why more people need to do the exclusion themselves. Beware of using the "stress" cause, as a "God of the gaps" that fills in for the stuff we can't explain. EVERY Doctor used to say that stomach ulcers were caused by stress until a few years ago. The Australian Surgeon that proved most had a simple, physical cause (Helicobacter Pylori)was pilloried for years. Now this is a recently accepted fact. Of course stress affects the gut, breathing, the heart, the immune system and more but we don't blame every disease on stress because we havn't found the cause yet. If I was a coalmine-owner no doubt I would have told miners their cough weren't caused by dust but the stress of being underground etc. Happy Xmas one and allLen


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Hi again,Have you never thought it very odd that up to 30% of our populations have this mstery disease we cause IBS?There is good science that redflags F as a cause of IBS and we are ingesting it , and NO, the studies on this are NOT being done. I know IBS Professors that would like them done. But they require funding and our Governments are Pro-Fluoride. That's why more people need to do the exclusion themselves. Beware of using the "stress" cause, as a "God of the gaps" that fills in for the stuff we can't explain. EVERY Doctor used to say that stomach ulcers were caused by stress until a few years ago. The Australian Surgeon that proved most had a simple, physical cause (Helicobacter Pylori)was pilloried for years. Now this is a recently accepted fact. Of course stress affects the gut, breathing, the heart, the immune system and more but we don't blame every disease on stress because we havn't found the cause yet. If I was a coalmine-owner no doubt I would have told miners their cough weren't caused by dust but the stress of being underground etc. Happy Xmas one and allLen


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

I heard that whenever someone comes up with a too-simple explanation or cure for an erroneously long held belief, the whole thing goes through a three stage process....1. Disbelief.2. Ridicule of the idea and especially personal ridicule of its proponents.3. Gradual acceptance.The stomach ulcer case and Helicobacter pylori's involvement is the best case I can think of, but there are many.I also suspect "stress" is a handy cop-out for too many health problems. What the hell is "stress", anyway?----------------Redclaw


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

I heard that whenever someone comes up with a too-simple explanation or cure for an erroneously long held belief, the whole thing goes through a three stage process....1. Disbelief.2. Ridicule of the idea and especially personal ridicule of its proponents.3. Gradual acceptance.The stomach ulcer case and Helicobacter pylori's involvement is the best case I can think of, but there are many.I also suspect "stress" is a handy cop-out for too many health problems. What the hell is "stress", anyway?----------------Redclaw


----------



## Linda mac (Feb 24, 2002)

It may be that Fluoride is a trigger for some people: I don't think it is in me. If I thought it was, I'd certainly give it a try....I hope it works for you Red...I mean, I'd eat Foofly if I thought it would "cure" me!As Tim said, I think that perhaps we have a genetic predisposition to this condition, and the triggers vary widely. I can eat hot spicy food with impunity...but a slice of Pizza has me rolling in agony...and I do believe that stress is a component, at least for me. My definition of stress is "Emotional Overload", although others may define it differently.Luilu


----------



## Linda mac (Feb 24, 2002)

It may be that Fluoride is a trigger for some people: I don't think it is in me. If I thought it was, I'd certainly give it a try....I hope it works for you Red...I mean, I'd eat Foofly if I thought it would "cure" me!As Tim said, I think that perhaps we have a genetic predisposition to this condition, and the triggers vary widely. I can eat hot spicy food with impunity...but a slice of Pizza has me rolling in agony...and I do believe that stress is a component, at least for me. My definition of stress is "Emotional Overload", although others may define it differently.Luilu


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

Foofly?What is Foofly, Luilu, though I suspect by the name it might be a nice fluffy dessert?


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

Foofly?What is Foofly, Luilu, though I suspect by the name it might be a nice fluffy dessert?


----------



## Lexi_Con (Aug 18, 2003)

Luilu,Pizza used to be a real no-no for me, too.







Then I develped my "No Dairy, No Meat Pizza" which can be found in the Diarrhea forum under one of my threads about ideas and recipes.I can eat this version of pizza with no bad effects whatsoever.Sure, it's not EXACTLY the same, but it is low-fat and pretty darned good!







Redclaw,I agree with you wholeheartedly.I don't see any harm in trying anything as simple as a change to unfluoridated water.The original posting was not shilling for an expensive "miracle cure" and I saw no evidence of hucksterism!Thinking back in my own life, there was a period of time when I drank only bottled unfluoridated water and worked out regularly at a gym.I drank as much as three litres (about 3 quarts) of bottled water every day.During this time, I had almost no symptoms of IBS.Is that a coincidence?I don't know. but I am thinking of switching back to drinking bottled water again.If this does make a significant difference, then the extra expense is certainly justified.Take care . . . from Lexi


----------



## Lexi_Con (Aug 18, 2003)

Luilu,Pizza used to be a real no-no for me, too.







Then I develped my "No Dairy, No Meat Pizza" which can be found in the Diarrhea forum under one of my threads about ideas and recipes.I can eat this version of pizza with no bad effects whatsoever.Sure, it's not EXACTLY the same, but it is low-fat and pretty darned good!







Redclaw,I agree with you wholeheartedly.I don't see any harm in trying anything as simple as a change to unfluoridated water.The original posting was not shilling for an expensive "miracle cure" and I saw no evidence of hucksterism!Thinking back in my own life, there was a period of time when I drank only bottled unfluoridated water and worked out regularly at a gym.I drank as much as three litres (about 3 quarts) of bottled water every day.During this time, I had almost no symptoms of IBS.Is that a coincidence?I don't know. but I am thinking of switching back to drinking bottled water again.If this does make a significant difference, then the extra expense is certainly justified.Take care . . . from Lexi


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Every word of my story is true. The bare bones of it are verifiable from my medical records and my family can verify the rest.What evidence have you to doubt me?


The story doesn't ring true.1) One breaks teeth. That seems like a *major* trauma. Yet your concern seems to shift rapidly to something else.


> quote:This meant a few days without hot drinks because of my injuries. To my utter amazement I realised I was suddenly totally free of the Irritable Bowel Syndrome that had plagued me daily for about 10 years with bloating, tummy cramps and anal mucus.


2) This is a pretty short time for the effects of a poison to reverse. I wonder if they would reverse at all, let alone whether they could do so in so short a time.


> quote:I researched tea to discover why it might cause IBS. Most notable was that tea contained more fluoride than any other edible plant.


3) Why didn't you get symptoms of fluorosis (see http://chorus.rad.mcw.edu/doc/01188.html)?


> quote:You say "Fluoride is safe". That is demonstrably untrue. Check out its toxicity rating for yourself and then tell me ?


4) The rest of your statement is a *largely bogus diatribe about fluoride*.


> quote:I just don't understand your reference to "posts by Lel1059". What is that?


It refers to a poster in the IBS forums who routinely posts false information.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Every word of my story is true. The bare bones of it are verifiable from my medical records and my family can verify the rest.What evidence have you to doubt me?


The story doesn't ring true.1) One breaks teeth. That seems like a *major* trauma. Yet your concern seems to shift rapidly to something else.


> quote:This meant a few days without hot drinks because of my injuries. To my utter amazement I realised I was suddenly totally free of the Irritable Bowel Syndrome that had plagued me daily for about 10 years with bloating, tummy cramps and anal mucus.


2) This is a pretty short time for the effects of a poison to reverse. I wonder if they would reverse at all, let alone whether they could do so in so short a time.


> quote:I researched tea to discover why it might cause IBS. Most notable was that tea contained more fluoride than any other edible plant.


3) Why didn't you get symptoms of fluorosis (see http://chorus.rad.mcw.edu/doc/01188.html)?


> quote:You say "Fluoride is safe". That is demonstrably untrue. Check out its toxicity rating for yourself and then tell me ?


4) The rest of your statement is a *largely bogus diatribe about fluoride*.


> quote:I just don't understand your reference to "posts by Lel1059". What is that?


It refers to a poster in the IBS forums who routinely posts false information.


----------



## Feisty (Aug 14, 2000)

> quote: I also suspect "stress" is a handy cop-out for too many health problems. What the hell is "stress", anyway?


I wholeheartedly agree, Redclaw. Stress this and stress that.







For the last several years, whenever my Doc asks me if I've had "stress" lately, my retort is "who doesn't"! Name me one person who does not have "stress". Grrrrrrrrrr. It's a cop out for the medical profession to use because they don't know or don't want to bother digging deeper to get to the bottom of it.


----------



## Feisty (Aug 14, 2000)

> quote: I also suspect "stress" is a handy cop-out for too many health problems. What the hell is "stress", anyway?


I wholeheartedly agree, Redclaw. Stress this and stress that.







For the last several years, whenever my Doc asks me if I've had "stress" lately, my retort is "who doesn't"! Name me one person who does not have "stress". Grrrrrrrrrr. It's a cop out for the medical profession to use because they don't know or don't want to bother digging deeper to get to the bottom of it.


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Reply to Flux 1.	My story doesnï¿½t ï¿½ring trueï¿½ to you. Why? (I asked you for ï¿½evidenceï¿½)It doesnï¿½t ring true because you make it plain that you currently believe Fluoride to be a ï¿½goodï¿½, ï¿½niceï¿½ ï¿½friendlyï¿½ chemical. Thatï¿½s the image it has been given. 2.	This is the reason for what you call my diatribe. How can I get you to consider the truth of my story without challenging your faith in Flourideï¿½s fluffy image? 3.	You protect your current perception of Fluoride by simply labelling my ï¿½diatribeï¿½ as ï¿½bogusï¿½. But what is bogus in it? Evidence please?4.	You ask why I didnï¿½t get ï¿½symptoms of fluorosisï¿½. I did! IBS is a name for a bunch of mystery symptoms, This same mystery bunch of symptoms is an early sign of fluorosis. http://homepage.tinet.ie/~fluoridefree/cam..._update/ibs.htm SUMMARY: This study was carried out to assess the effect on the human gastroduodenal mucosa of drinking naturally fluoridated water and treating patients with 30 mg sodium fluoride for otosclerosis. Ten cases each of skeletal fluorosis and otosclerosis and twenty cases of non-ulcer dyspepsia (NUD) were investigated through routine clinical investigations, chemical investigations of body fluids and drinking water for fluoride, radiographs, stool examination for ova, cysts and worms, abdominal sonography, upper gastrointestinal endoscopy, jejunal aspirates for Giardia lamblia, histopathology of biopsies of intestinal and gastric mucosa and scanning electron microscopy of the mucosa. Patients of all three groups, compared with a control group of normal healthy volunteers, presented gastrointestinal problems and discomfort. Four patients with non-ulcer dyspepsia also presented radiological evidence of skeletal fluorosis. Analysis of ingested drinking water revealed fluoride concentrations of 0.49 - 11.36 ppm. Histopathological studies revealed non-specific lesions. Stool examination revealed ova of Ascaris lumbricoides in two NUD patients, while the rest had normal stool on examination. Jejunal aspirates were negative for Giardia lamblia in all the subjects. Scanning electron microscopic studies revealed widespread damage to the mucosa, viz. (a) mucus droplets were not visible, (







loss of microvilli, © cracked-clay appearance of the duodenal mucosa and (d) desquamated epithelium of gastric mucosa. It is concluded: 1) Ingested fluoride damages gastroduodenal mucosa. 2) Gastrointestinal discomfort can be an early warning sign of fluorosis. 3) Fluoride toxicity should be considered a possible reason for non-ulcer dyspepsia, especially in fluorosis endemic areas. 4) Gastrointestinal discomfort during sodium fluoride therapy calls for extreme caution and close monitoring. 5) Gastrointestinal discomfort in the form of dyspeptic symptoms should be an important diagnostic feature when identifying fluorosis patients and should not be dismissed as non-specific.5.	As to your ï¿½traumaï¿½ point. I broke a front upper incisor and chipped another. Neighbouring teeth were numb and in danger of dying. I had cut gums. When you are trying to tell a story concisely how much detail do you give? I summed this up in two words ï¿½breaking teethï¿½. I was pulling out a steel tree-support, incorrectly, and I pulled it into my face. This was not major trauma. But it was horrible. My IBS was severe. I would have to have been dead not to notice its sudden, total disappearance within about 48 hours. 6.	If you think of this poison as ï¿½irritatingï¿½ the gut. It is perfectly possible that its withdrawal would bring swift amelioration.7.	I still donï¿½t get this kel1059 reference. What has it got to do with me? Why are you trying to associate me with something, or somebody, that I have no knowledge of?8.	You say ï¿½kel1059ï¿½ posts contain ï¿½false informationï¿½. Well I hope your accusations against them were fairer than yours against mine. 9.	Are you suggesting some link or not? If you are, the site host has all my contact details and could demonstrate the falsehood of it. If you are not suggesting a link, what you are doing is close to harassment.10.	You never did tell me what you found Fluorides toxicity to be?11.	Again, I repeat, I not asking anyone to take my word, I am asking, those that want to, to test my word.12. I know that in US itï¿½s very difficult to be Fluoride free. Any purchased beverage or pre-prepared foods may be made with F-water. But you may be get relief/cure from the reduction. I seem to tolerate the 0,2ppm natural F in our local supply , but at a 1.0ppm supply I got ill. Bottled waters are usually <0.1ppm.


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Reply to Flux 1.	My story doesnï¿½t ï¿½ring trueï¿½ to you. Why? (I asked you for ï¿½evidenceï¿½)It doesnï¿½t ring true because you make it plain that you currently believe Fluoride to be a ï¿½goodï¿½, ï¿½niceï¿½ ï¿½friendlyï¿½ chemical. Thatï¿½s the image it has been given. 2.	This is the reason for what you call my diatribe. How can I get you to consider the truth of my story without challenging your faith in Flourideï¿½s fluffy image? 3.	You protect your current perception of Fluoride by simply labelling my ï¿½diatribeï¿½ as ï¿½bogusï¿½. But what is bogus in it? Evidence please?4.	You ask why I didnï¿½t get ï¿½symptoms of fluorosisï¿½. I did! IBS is a name for a bunch of mystery symptoms, This same mystery bunch of symptoms is an early sign of fluorosis. http://homepage.tinet.ie/~fluoridefree/cam..._update/ibs.htm SUMMARY: This study was carried out to assess the effect on the human gastroduodenal mucosa of drinking naturally fluoridated water and treating patients with 30 mg sodium fluoride for otosclerosis. Ten cases each of skeletal fluorosis and otosclerosis and twenty cases of non-ulcer dyspepsia (NUD) were investigated through routine clinical investigations, chemical investigations of body fluids and drinking water for fluoride, radiographs, stool examination for ova, cysts and worms, abdominal sonography, upper gastrointestinal endoscopy, jejunal aspirates for Giardia lamblia, histopathology of biopsies of intestinal and gastric mucosa and scanning electron microscopy of the mucosa. Patients of all three groups, compared with a control group of normal healthy volunteers, presented gastrointestinal problems and discomfort. Four patients with non-ulcer dyspepsia also presented radiological evidence of skeletal fluorosis. Analysis of ingested drinking water revealed fluoride concentrations of 0.49 - 11.36 ppm. Histopathological studies revealed non-specific lesions. Stool examination revealed ova of Ascaris lumbricoides in two NUD patients, while the rest had normal stool on examination. Jejunal aspirates were negative for Giardia lamblia in all the subjects. Scanning electron microscopic studies revealed widespread damage to the mucosa, viz. (a) mucus droplets were not visible, (







loss of microvilli, © cracked-clay appearance of the duodenal mucosa and (d) desquamated epithelium of gastric mucosa. It is concluded: 1) Ingested fluoride damages gastroduodenal mucosa. 2) Gastrointestinal discomfort can be an early warning sign of fluorosis. 3) Fluoride toxicity should be considered a possible reason for non-ulcer dyspepsia, especially in fluorosis endemic areas. 4) Gastrointestinal discomfort during sodium fluoride therapy calls for extreme caution and close monitoring. 5) Gastrointestinal discomfort in the form of dyspeptic symptoms should be an important diagnostic feature when identifying fluorosis patients and should not be dismissed as non-specific.5.	As to your ï¿½traumaï¿½ point. I broke a front upper incisor and chipped another. Neighbouring teeth were numb and in danger of dying. I had cut gums. When you are trying to tell a story concisely how much detail do you give? I summed this up in two words ï¿½breaking teethï¿½. I was pulling out a steel tree-support, incorrectly, and I pulled it into my face. This was not major trauma. But it was horrible. My IBS was severe. I would have to have been dead not to notice its sudden, total disappearance within about 48 hours. 6.	If you think of this poison as ï¿½irritatingï¿½ the gut. It is perfectly possible that its withdrawal would bring swift amelioration.7.	I still donï¿½t get this kel1059 reference. What has it got to do with me? Why are you trying to associate me with something, or somebody, that I have no knowledge of?8.	You say ï¿½kel1059ï¿½ posts contain ï¿½false informationï¿½. Well I hope your accusations against them were fairer than yours against mine. 9.	Are you suggesting some link or not? If you are, the site host has all my contact details and could demonstrate the falsehood of it. If you are not suggesting a link, what you are doing is close to harassment.10.	You never did tell me what you found Fluorides toxicity to be?11.	Again, I repeat, I not asking anyone to take my word, I am asking, those that want to, to test my word.12. I know that in US itï¿½s very difficult to be Fluoride free. Any purchased beverage or pre-prepared foods may be made with F-water. But you may be get relief/cure from the reduction. I seem to tolerate the 0,2ppm natural F in our local supply , but at a 1.0ppm supply I got ill. Bottled waters are usually <0.1ppm.


----------



## Guest (Dec 27, 2003)

Stress is a factor in all life...eustress and distress...gotta have it. How we handle it is a major health factor like it or not...the term is very often misused however. "Stress" is often substituted for anxiety, distress, eustress, dischord, frustration, etc. I drink lots of tea..it seems to help my IBS. To make it worse, I drink decaf tea...


----------



## Guest (Dec 27, 2003)

Stress is a factor in all life...eustress and distress...gotta have it. How we handle it is a major health factor like it or not...the term is very often misused however. "Stress" is often substituted for anxiety, distress, eustress, dischord, frustration, etc. I drink lots of tea..it seems to help my IBS. To make it worse, I drink decaf tea...


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

Len,As of today, I am using a non-fluoride toothpaste, drinking skywater and making coffee with it, no longer drinking any tea, and I have suspended my daily swim in fluoridated water.I am serious about putting your suggestions to the test.I will keep you informed!


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

Len,As of today, I am using a non-fluoride toothpaste, drinking skywater and making coffee with it, no longer drinking any tea, and I have suspended my daily swim in fluoridated water.I am serious about putting your suggestions to the test.I will keep you informed!


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

I came across the hocus pocus about "stress" while extensively researching cardio-vascular disease.Many health professionals will tell you stress is a major cause of heart disease and too many patients like to believe it because it allows them to avoid facing the main, real causes, namely bad diet and lack of physical exercise.It is notoriously difficult to convince some heart patients they need to get serious about addressing their bad diet and physical inactivity, so if they can blame bad old "stress", all the more reason to do nothing.There are other factors too, but none as significant as bad diet and lack of exercise.Stress plays no part in contributing to plaque build-up in the coronary arteries, the precursor of ischemic heart attack, but if a person who already has advanced coronary artery blockages, is subjected to a highly emotional event (stress) it can cause tightening and restriction of already clogged blood vessels and this can trigger formation of a blood clot resulting in a heart attack.In most cases of heart attack, the victim has no idea they already have severely restricted arteries supplying blood to the the heart muscle, and therefore they find it easy to blame "stress" for their disease, when it was simply the trigger that caused a blood clot in an already diseased heart.I suspect similarly false premeses are used to blame stress as the culprit in many other diseases.PS..... I have never been aware of any sense of stress in my life, yet I started to show signs of heart disease at age 40 and suffered a near fatal heart attack a few years later. I no longer have any problem since I took seriously the correction of my diet and lifestyle. Stress had no bearing at all on my disase.


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

I came across the hocus pocus about "stress" while extensively researching cardio-vascular disease.Many health professionals will tell you stress is a major cause of heart disease and too many patients like to believe it because it allows them to avoid facing the main, real causes, namely bad diet and lack of physical exercise.It is notoriously difficult to convince some heart patients they need to get serious about addressing their bad diet and physical inactivity, so if they can blame bad old "stress", all the more reason to do nothing.There are other factors too, but none as significant as bad diet and lack of exercise.Stress plays no part in contributing to plaque build-up in the coronary arteries, the precursor of ischemic heart attack, but if a person who already has advanced coronary artery blockages, is subjected to a highly emotional event (stress) it can cause tightening and restriction of already clogged blood vessels and this can trigger formation of a blood clot resulting in a heart attack.In most cases of heart attack, the victim has no idea they already have severely restricted arteries supplying blood to the the heart muscle, and therefore they find it easy to blame "stress" for their disease, when it was simply the trigger that caused a blood clot in an already diseased heart.I suspect similarly false premeses are used to blame stress as the culprit in many other diseases.PS..... I have never been aware of any sense of stress in my life, yet I started to show signs of heart disease at age 40 and suffered a near fatal heart attack a few years later. I no longer have any problem since I took seriously the correction of my diet and lifestyle. Stress had no bearing at all on my disase.


----------



## Stace (Sep 20, 2000)

I agree, Redclaw. And not only that, there is cutting edge research which seems to indicate that cardiovascular disease could also be caused by inflammation/infection.My GI problems began when I got ill in a foreign country. It took me 5 GIs before I got a proper diagnosis of the bacteria that I had picked up overseas. Had I listened to the first 4 doctors, I would still be suffering today.If a doctor ever again attributes anything to stress, I will find a new one. I have lived long enough to know how my body reacts to stress and I refuse to accept that as an answer when I know something else is wrong.It is abundantly clear to me that stress is often mentioned when the dr. is unable to make a diagnosis. Nothing like blaming the victim by telling them they are bringing on their own physical suffering. When I think of the GIs who told me (after 5 minutes of knowing me) that all of my GI problems were due to stress, I still get furious. We know our bodies better than anyone and when something is amiss, it pays to find a doctor who will listen, work with you, and run the proper tests instead of merely blowing it off as "stress." And I'm not saying stress isn't the problem for some people. I just knew it wasn't my problem and it was hell trying to find a doctor who took the time to figure out the real problem.


----------



## Stace (Sep 20, 2000)

I agree, Redclaw. And not only that, there is cutting edge research which seems to indicate that cardiovascular disease could also be caused by inflammation/infection.My GI problems began when I got ill in a foreign country. It took me 5 GIs before I got a proper diagnosis of the bacteria that I had picked up overseas. Had I listened to the first 4 doctors, I would still be suffering today.If a doctor ever again attributes anything to stress, I will find a new one. I have lived long enough to know how my body reacts to stress and I refuse to accept that as an answer when I know something else is wrong.It is abundantly clear to me that stress is often mentioned when the dr. is unable to make a diagnosis. Nothing like blaming the victim by telling them they are bringing on their own physical suffering. When I think of the GIs who told me (after 5 minutes of knowing me) that all of my GI problems were due to stress, I still get furious. We know our bodies better than anyone and when something is amiss, it pays to find a doctor who will listen, work with you, and run the proper tests instead of merely blowing it off as "stress." And I'm not saying stress isn't the problem for some people. I just knew it wasn't my problem and it was hell trying to find a doctor who took the time to figure out the real problem.


----------



## Elariel (Jan 1, 1999)

> quote:Have you never thought it very odd that up to 30% of our populations have this mstery disease we cause IBS?


just a note on this and the 'fluoride' connection. perhaps it did cause it for you, but mine started when i was 15 or so. i lived *outside* of a city water supply, so no added fluoride. and just regular toothpaste, my parents didnt really key in on the fluoride importance in toothpaste. i did that myself when i started buying my own.. so fluoride definitly didnt have anything to do with mine. and now i am in a city, drink the water, and my IBS is little to none. i have seen people say there's something in their water supply. i dont think i'd pinpoint it down to fluoride though..especially since there are a few things about hot tea that can set off IBS!edit: small edit to add i drink hot black tea almost every day, usually 1-2 cups. the only ones that affect my IBS is the cinnamon ones


----------



## Elariel (Jan 1, 1999)

> quote:Have you never thought it very odd that up to 30% of our populations have this mstery disease we cause IBS?


just a note on this and the 'fluoride' connection. perhaps it did cause it for you, but mine started when i was 15 or so. i lived *outside* of a city water supply, so no added fluoride. and just regular toothpaste, my parents didnt really key in on the fluoride importance in toothpaste. i did that myself when i started buying my own.. so fluoride definitly didnt have anything to do with mine. and now i am in a city, drink the water, and my IBS is little to none. i have seen people say there's something in their water supply. i dont think i'd pinpoint it down to fluoride though..especially since there are a few things about hot tea that can set off IBS!edit: small edit to add i drink hot black tea almost every day, usually 1-2 cups. the only ones that affect my IBS is the cinnamon ones


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:My IBS was severe. I would have to have been dead not to notice its sudden, total disappearance within about 48 hours.


I don't know what severe IBS means, but could it be the case that "stress" actually eliminated your symptoms?


> quote:6. If you think of this poison as ï¿½irritatingï¿½ the gut. It is perfectly possible that its withdrawal would bring swift amelioration.


Poisons don't irritate. They cause damage that would probably not be reversible.


> quote:7. I still donï¿½t get this kel1059 reference. What has it got to do with me?


It is part of my sig line because kel1059 posts often and frequently and I don't necessarily respond to his(her?) every post.


> quote:10. You never did tell me what you found Fluorides toxicity to be?


Fluoride-*in excess*- cause fluorosis. *It does not cause IBS*


> quote:12. I know that in US itï¿½s very difficult to be Fluoride free.


*Fluoride is a good thing.*


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:My IBS was severe. I would have to have been dead not to notice its sudden, total disappearance within about 48 hours.


I don't know what severe IBS means, but could it be the case that "stress" actually eliminated your symptoms?


> quote:6. If you think of this poison as ï¿½irritatingï¿½ the gut. It is perfectly possible that its withdrawal would bring swift amelioration.


Poisons don't irritate. They cause damage that would probably not be reversible.


> quote:7. I still donï¿½t get this kel1059 reference. What has it got to do with me?


It is part of my sig line because kel1059 posts often and frequently and I don't necessarily respond to his(her?) every post.


> quote:10. You never did tell me what you found Fluorides toxicity to be?


Fluoride-*in excess*- cause fluorosis. *It does not cause IBS*


> quote:12. I know that in US itï¿½s very difficult to be Fluoride free.


*Fluoride is a good thing.*


----------



## Zeruel (Nov 19, 2002)

I can only speak for myself. but in my case tea doesn't affect my IBS.


----------



## Zeruel (Nov 19, 2002)

I can only speak for myself. but in my case tea doesn't affect my IBS.


----------



## Guest (Dec 27, 2003)

"Stress" is only "hocus pocus" when you don't understand it...and thats fine. It seldom is the cause of any somatic problem, but it is often the exacerbating factor that triggers or worsens a condition...so it is best to learn how to recognize and deal with it....it is real and it does effect all living creatures.


----------



## Guest (Dec 27, 2003)

"Stress" is only "hocus pocus" when you don't understand it...and thats fine. It seldom is the cause of any somatic problem, but it is often the exacerbating factor that triggers or worsens a condition...so it is best to learn how to recognize and deal with it....it is real and it does effect all living creatures.


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

The degree to which "stress" affects you is as much as you allow it to. If you have a neighbour who is verbally abusive...if you ignore him, he will cause you no stress, or if it comes to a crunch and you can't handle him, move house.A doctor once told me "stress" was causing sores on my hands that would not go away. I didn't believe him and got another opinion. The sores were caused by a golden staph skin infection and were fixed quickly with a combination of antibiotic creams.I think it depends on your personality type. I have never personally been aware of this thing some people call "stress" causing me any distress whatsoever, despite the fact I worked hard at more than one job to raise a large family, and my life has been punctuated by many personal and family tragedies.


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

The degree to which "stress" affects you is as much as you allow it to. If you have a neighbour who is verbally abusive...if you ignore him, he will cause you no stress, or if it comes to a crunch and you can't handle him, move house.A doctor once told me "stress" was causing sores on my hands that would not go away. I didn't believe him and got another opinion. The sores were caused by a golden staph skin infection and were fixed quickly with a combination of antibiotic creams.I think it depends on your personality type. I have never personally been aware of this thing some people call "stress" causing me any distress whatsoever, despite the fact I worked hard at more than one job to raise a large family, and my life has been punctuated by many personal and family tragedies.


----------



## Persistance (Jul 11, 1999)

How on earth did I ever miss this amusing thread?(anyway, IBS is such a complex series of factors, it would be nearly impossible to attribute it to any one thing at this point. Except to say that Tim and others are correct when they say that an event such as antibiotics, surgery, food or water poisoning can bring it on in those who are predisposed to it by inheritance). As regards stress: it's well-known in the medical profession that whereever an individual is most sensitive -- eg., migraines, stomach distress, heart problems -- stress can exacerbate the problem. In people prone to headaches, stress can bring one on. In those with IBS, stress usually manifests itself that way. No big mystery. The body-mind/mind-gut connection is _huge,_ previously a conundrum -- but more and more at the forefront of scientific research on health _and_ IBS, as Shawn Eric and Flux and a handful of others have been providing evidence for over the last few years. Emotions are not everything (for instance, they might not cause Red's skin condition, or cancer, for instance), but no small thing when it comes to a lot of things that happen to the body. This, by the way, as we went over in days of yore many a time on the main forum, is _not_ the same thing as a doctor telling a patient "it's all "in your head." It's in your head _and_ in your gut. One place I tend to doubt it would be, would be in your tea (although the caffeine certainly wouldn't _help_).


----------



## Persistance (Jul 11, 1999)

How on earth did I ever miss this amusing thread?(anyway, IBS is such a complex series of factors, it would be nearly impossible to attribute it to any one thing at this point. Except to say that Tim and others are correct when they say that an event such as antibiotics, surgery, food or water poisoning can bring it on in those who are predisposed to it by inheritance). As regards stress: it's well-known in the medical profession that whereever an individual is most sensitive -- eg., migraines, stomach distress, heart problems -- stress can exacerbate the problem. In people prone to headaches, stress can bring one on. In those with IBS, stress usually manifests itself that way. No big mystery. The body-mind/mind-gut connection is _huge,_ previously a conundrum -- but more and more at the forefront of scientific research on health _and_ IBS, as Shawn Eric and Flux and a handful of others have been providing evidence for over the last few years. Emotions are not everything (for instance, they might not cause Red's skin condition, or cancer, for instance), but no small thing when it comes to a lot of things that happen to the body. This, by the way, as we went over in days of yore many a time on the main forum, is _not_ the same thing as a doctor telling a patient "it's all "in your head." It's in your head _and_ in your gut. One place I tend to doubt it would be, would be in your tea (although the caffeine certainly wouldn't _help_).


----------



## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

If you didn't have fluorinated water you'd prbably have worse problems like Oral cancer or really bad dental problems. You would be having false teeth by now


----------



## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

If you didn't have fluorinated water you'd prbably have worse problems like Oral cancer or really bad dental problems. You would be having false teeth by now


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

I don't suggest "stress" does not exist, but I believe from my own experience and working with a cardiac support group, "stress" is overused as an explanation for things the medicos have no answer for.The wife of a heart patient I know is convinced he has heart disease from the "stress" of driving a taxi. The fact he sits on his fat a*s all day without any physical activity and eats a diet that would kill a brown dog, doesn't wash with her because she won't accept she has fed him badly over the years, and a doctor said he has a "stressful" job.It's all just a great big cop-out and an excuse not to do anything about correcting the husband's lifestyle (and her own). This is typical of the unfortunate result of believing "stress" is a big factor in the cause of disease, when it is not!


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

I don't suggest "stress" does not exist, but I believe from my own experience and working with a cardiac support group, "stress" is overused as an explanation for things the medicos have no answer for.The wife of a heart patient I know is convinced he has heart disease from the "stress" of driving a taxi. The fact he sits on his fat a*s all day without any physical activity and eats a diet that would kill a brown dog, doesn't wash with her because she won't accept she has fed him badly over the years, and a doctor said he has a "stressful" job.It's all just a great big cop-out and an excuse not to do anything about correcting the husband's lifestyle (and her own). This is typical of the unfortunate result of believing "stress" is a big factor in the cause of disease, when it is not!


----------



## mxz583 (Mar 19, 2000)

I'm still waiting for the "Proof." I didn't end up in the ER and the Hospital for 5 days because I brushed my teeth that day.Tim


----------



## mxz583 (Mar 19, 2000)

I'm still waiting for the "Proof." I didn't end up in the ER and the Hospital for 5 days because I brushed my teeth that day.Tim


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

Oral cancer... big dental problems..... and having to have false teeth?Gee, bonniei, you sure have been brainwashed by the fluoride lobby!Only a small portion of the world's population drinks water with added fluoride and fewer use toothpaste of any kind. Dental decay was unknown in many native populations until they were introduced to crappy Western style food.The natives of the highlands of New Guinea have impressively beautiful teeth and most would never have heard of fluoride or a toothbrush.


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

Oral cancer... big dental problems..... and having to have false teeth?Gee, bonniei, you sure have been brainwashed by the fluoride lobby!Only a small portion of the world's population drinks water with added fluoride and fewer use toothpaste of any kind. Dental decay was unknown in many native populations until they were introduced to crappy Western style food.The natives of the highlands of New Guinea have impressively beautiful teeth and most would never have heard of fluoride or a toothbrush.


----------



## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Gee Redclaw I just jumped in here because the rest of the board is dead. And this is an interesting thread because flux might get proved to be a charlatan!







Thyis is what I read, don't blame me







MMWR. Morbidity and Mortality Weekly ReportVolume 50 ï¿½ Number RR-21 ï¿½ November 30, 2001Copyright ï¿½ 2001 The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (Reprinted with permission) Promoting Oral Health: Interventions for Preventing Dental Caries, Oral and Pharyngeal Cancers, and Sports-Related Craniofacial InjuriesA Report on Recommendations of the Task Force on Community Preventive Services SummaryThe Task Force on Community Preventive Services (the Task Force) has conducted systematic reviews of the evidence of effectiveness of selected population-based interventions to prevent and control dental caries (tooth decay), oral (mouth) and pharyngeal (throat) cancers, and sports-related craniofacial injuries. The Task Force strongly recommends community water fluoridation and school-based or school-linked pit and fissure sealant delivery programs for prevention and control of dental caries.


----------



## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Gee Redclaw I just jumped in here because the rest of the board is dead. And this is an interesting thread because flux might get proved to be a charlatan!







Thyis is what I read, don't blame me







MMWR. Morbidity and Mortality Weekly ReportVolume 50 ï¿½ Number RR-21 ï¿½ November 30, 2001Copyright ï¿½ 2001 The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (Reprinted with permission) Promoting Oral Health: Interventions for Preventing Dental Caries, Oral and Pharyngeal Cancers, and Sports-Related Craniofacial InjuriesA Report on Recommendations of the Task Force on Community Preventive Services SummaryThe Task Force on Community Preventive Services (the Task Force) has conducted systematic reviews of the evidence of effectiveness of selected population-based interventions to prevent and control dental caries (tooth decay), oral (mouth) and pharyngeal (throat) cancers, and sports-related craniofacial injuries. The Task Force strongly recommends community water fluoridation and school-based or school-linked pit and fissure sealant delivery programs for prevention and control of dental caries.


----------



## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Redclaw, the natives might be having something in their toothpaste passed down over the ages. Some kind of tribal medicine. In India they use Ayurveduic medicine- primarily Neem. I am just saying it wiould be diisaster to get rid of fluoride and not replace it with something else for prevention of tooth decay


----------



## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Redclaw, the natives might be having something in their toothpaste passed down over the ages. Some kind of tribal medicine. In India they use Ayurveduic medicine- primarily Neem. I am just saying it wiould be diisaster to get rid of fluoride and not replace it with something else for prevention of tooth decay


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quoteental decay was unknown in many native populations until they were introduced to crappy Western style food.





> quote:The natives of the highlands of New Guinea have impressively beautiful teeth and most would never have heard of fluoride or a toothbrush.










It's common sense that in a world without fluoride there would be rampant decay.... Overall: http://www.afro.who.int/oralhealth/epidemiology.html With respect to Papua New Guinea: http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/dynapage.taf...s/4807343a.html http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...5&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/quer...2&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/quer...2&dopt=Abstract


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quoteental decay was unknown in many native populations until they were introduced to crappy Western style food.





> quote:The natives of the highlands of New Guinea have impressively beautiful teeth and most would never have heard of fluoride or a toothbrush.










It's common sense that in a world without fluoride there would be rampant decay.... Overall: http://www.afro.who.int/oralhealth/epidemiology.html With respect to Papua New Guinea: http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/dynapage.taf...s/4807343a.html http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...5&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/quer...2&dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/quer...2&dopt=Abstract


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

How clever of flux to post 7 links but when you open them they nearly all carry the same report about modern-day STUDENTS having varying degrees of dental caries. The notable thing is , there is no comparison given to compare the rates of decay with any other populations.The articles quoted only reinforce my statement that many native populations had good teeth until they were intruduced to Western style food.In case flux is unaware, students in PNG no longer eat their former native diet, and the many students who come to the city where I live for their education get most of their "nutrition" from McD's KFC, Hungry Jack's and the like.


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

How clever of flux to post 7 links but when you open them they nearly all carry the same report about modern-day STUDENTS having varying degrees of dental caries. The notable thing is , there is no comparison given to compare the rates of decay with any other populations.The articles quoted only reinforce my statement that many native populations had good teeth until they were intruduced to Western style food.In case flux is unaware, students in PNG no longer eat their former native diet, and the many students who come to the city where I live for their education get most of their "nutrition" from McD's KFC, Hungry Jack's and the like.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quotef flux to post 7 links but when you open them they nearly all carry the same report about modern-day STUDENTS having varying degrees of dental caries.


Logic? How are 4 links, 7? What counts as modern day? One of those reports is over 20 years old Where would reports from earlier come from?General evidence that tooth decay existed a long time ago: http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites...ses/case19.html


> quote:The notable thing is , there is no comparison given to compare the rates of decay with any other populations.


Not so. The statistics reported is kind used in other studies.


> quote:The articles quoted only reinforce my statement that many native populations had good teeth until they were intruduced to Western style food.


Logic? The articles refuted your claims. This is just a load of


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quotef flux to post 7 links but when you open them they nearly all carry the same report about modern-day STUDENTS having varying degrees of dental caries.


Logic? How are 4 links, 7? What counts as modern day? One of those reports is over 20 years old Where would reports from earlier come from?General evidence that tooth decay existed a long time ago: http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites...ses/case19.html


> quote:The notable thing is , there is no comparison given to compare the rates of decay with any other populations.


Not so. The statistics reported is kind used in other studies.


> quote:The articles quoted only reinforce my statement that many native populations had good teeth until they were intruduced to Western style food.


Logic? The articles refuted your claims. This is just a load of


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Reply to Flux,So ï¿½stress may have eliminated my symptomsï¿½. This is the unassailable magic of ï¿½the stress interpretationï¿½ it can be made to say anything. Even contradict itself.1.	Stress causes IBS2.	Stress eliminates IBS You got me there. I expect ï¿½stressï¿½ can make IBS stay just the same too!You ï¿½ve got your ï¿½God of the gapsï¿½. It explains everything, its invisible, untestable and not responsible for inherent contradictions. Fluoride IS a poison! The 1984 issue of Clinical Toxicology of Commercial Products lists fluoride as more poisonous than lead and just slightly less poisonous than arsenic. It has been used as a pesticide for mice, rats and other small pests. A 10# infant could be killed by 1/100 of an ounce and a 100# adult could be killed by 1/10 of an ounce of fluoride. The Akron Regional Poison Center indicates that a 7 ounce tube of toothpaste contains 199 mg. of fluoride, more than enough to kill a 25# child. Even Procter & Gamble, the maker of Crest, acknowledges that this is true "theoretically, at least." There are documented deaths of infants and children caused by "normal dosage" of fluoride tablets or treatments. The acceleration of the aging process by fluoride occurs at the bio-chemical level by means of: 1.	enzyme inhibition; 2.	collagen breakdown; 3.	genetic damage; and/or 4.	disruption of the immune system per se. Fluoride damages enzymes which results in a wide range of chronic diseases. Fluoride as low as 1 ppm (usual Fluoridation rate) causes breakdown of collagen, the most abundant of the body's protein at 30%. It also leads to irregular formation of collagen which serves as a major structural component of skin, ligaments, tendons, muscles, cartilage, bones and teeth. The United States Pharmacopoeia lists some of the side effects from drinking 1 to 2 pints daily of municipally fluoridated water. The list includes: nausea, bloody vomit, faintness, stomach cramps, tremors, constipation, aching bones, stiffness, skin rash, weight loss, and brown or black discoloration of the teeth. The 1991 Physicians' Desk Reference lists some of the same side effects from administered doses of fluoride. Fluoride interacts with the bonds which maintain the normal shape of proteins. With distorted protein, the immune system attacks it's own protein, the body's own tissue. Fluoride (at 1 ppm) in drinking water: 1.	damages the immune system by inhibiting the migration rate of white blood cells to infected areas; 2.	interferes with phagocytosis (the destruction of bacteria and other foreign agents by white blood cells); and 3.	induces the release of superoxide free radicals in resting white blood cells. This fluoride-induced interference leads to an increased and more prolonged exposure of the body to foreign materials and leads to the release of free radicals which damage the body and leads to a further acceleration of the aging process. Proctor and Gamble studies which they published in Mutation Research, 1989, showed that fluoride at less than 1 ppm caused genetic damage in Chinese hamsters. Many studies make it clear that fluoride causes genetic damage. The mechanism cannot be exactly pinpointed because fluoride interferes with a number of physiological processes. Most evidence indicates that it acts on the DNA Repair Enzyme System. It may also interfere with DNA synthesis or act directly on the DNA. In any case, damaged DNA and a slowed down DNA Repair Enzyme System lead to a snowballing cycle of aging > damage > aging > damage, etc. If the unrepaired DNA damage occurs in a cell which gives rise to a sperm or egg cell, the damage will be replicated in every cell of the offspring's body and will lead to a birth defect. Unrepaired damage of a segment of DNA responsible for control of cell growth can lead to tumors and/or cancer. In the 1930s, H. Trendly Dean of the U.S. Public Health Service conducted extensive surveys which showed that as fluoride levels in the water increased, so did the incidence of dental fluorosis. Then Dr. Gerald Cox, on the staff of the Mellon Institute (the Mellons owned ALCOA Aluminum, a fluoride-polluting industry), claimed that if some fluoride was bad for teeth, a smaller amount was good and should be added to the water. In the late 1930s, Dean started publishing purposely skewed data to show that fluoride caused reduction in tooth decay. The USPHS was under the jurisdiction of Treasury Secretary Andrew Mellon, founder of ALCOA. Dr. Cox convinced a Wisconsin dentist, J. J. Frisch, to promote the addition of fluoride to the water supply. This was the beginning of the infiltration into the ADA & the AMA all to find an outlet for the by-product fluoride from the phosphate fertilizer and the aluminum industries. What part of this do you contest Flux? I invite any reader to go to google, punch in ï¿½Fluoride + toxicityï¿½ and see what you come up with. Go on, DO IT!Saying Fluoride ï¿½is a good thingï¿½ is like saying ï¿½mercury is a good thingï¿½ because we fix holes in our teeth with it.Fluoride accumulates in the bones and teeth making them harder and more brittle. Whether this is an intelligent remedy against high sugar diets is questionable to say the least.Please tell me where nice fluffy Fluoride comes from?You try to ï¿½proveï¿½ Fluoride is not a poison because damage from poisons are irreversible. The effects of every poison does NOT go from zero, to irreversible damage. It all depends on the dose. We would all be dead otherwise. You STILL havenï¿½t told me the toxicity rating of Fluoride. Come on?You seem to confuse ï¿½Skeletal Fluorosisï¿½ with Fluorosis. Didnï¿½t you follow the links. IBS symptoms are early signs of Fluorosis.Again I'm asking. Don't take my word test it?take care Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Reply to Flux,So ï¿½stress may have eliminated my symptomsï¿½. This is the unassailable magic of ï¿½the stress interpretationï¿½ it can be made to say anything. Even contradict itself.1.	Stress causes IBS2.	Stress eliminates IBS You got me there. I expect ï¿½stressï¿½ can make IBS stay just the same too!You ï¿½ve got your ï¿½God of the gapsï¿½. It explains everything, its invisible, untestable and not responsible for inherent contradictions. Fluoride IS a poison! The 1984 issue of Clinical Toxicology of Commercial Products lists fluoride as more poisonous than lead and just slightly less poisonous than arsenic. It has been used as a pesticide for mice, rats and other small pests. A 10# infant could be killed by 1/100 of an ounce and a 100# adult could be killed by 1/10 of an ounce of fluoride. The Akron Regional Poison Center indicates that a 7 ounce tube of toothpaste contains 199 mg. of fluoride, more than enough to kill a 25# child. Even Procter & Gamble, the maker of Crest, acknowledges that this is true "theoretically, at least." There are documented deaths of infants and children caused by "normal dosage" of fluoride tablets or treatments. The acceleration of the aging process by fluoride occurs at the bio-chemical level by means of: 1.	enzyme inhibition; 2.	collagen breakdown; 3.	genetic damage; and/or 4.	disruption of the immune system per se. Fluoride damages enzymes which results in a wide range of chronic diseases. Fluoride as low as 1 ppm (usual Fluoridation rate) causes breakdown of collagen, the most abundant of the body's protein at 30%. It also leads to irregular formation of collagen which serves as a major structural component of skin, ligaments, tendons, muscles, cartilage, bones and teeth. The United States Pharmacopoeia lists some of the side effects from drinking 1 to 2 pints daily of municipally fluoridated water. The list includes: nausea, bloody vomit, faintness, stomach cramps, tremors, constipation, aching bones, stiffness, skin rash, weight loss, and brown or black discoloration of the teeth. The 1991 Physicians' Desk Reference lists some of the same side effects from administered doses of fluoride. Fluoride interacts with the bonds which maintain the normal shape of proteins. With distorted protein, the immune system attacks it's own protein, the body's own tissue. Fluoride (at 1 ppm) in drinking water: 1.	damages the immune system by inhibiting the migration rate of white blood cells to infected areas; 2.	interferes with phagocytosis (the destruction of bacteria and other foreign agents by white blood cells); and 3.	induces the release of superoxide free radicals in resting white blood cells. This fluoride-induced interference leads to an increased and more prolonged exposure of the body to foreign materials and leads to the release of free radicals which damage the body and leads to a further acceleration of the aging process. Proctor and Gamble studies which they published in Mutation Research, 1989, showed that fluoride at less than 1 ppm caused genetic damage in Chinese hamsters. Many studies make it clear that fluoride causes genetic damage. The mechanism cannot be exactly pinpointed because fluoride interferes with a number of physiological processes. Most evidence indicates that it acts on the DNA Repair Enzyme System. It may also interfere with DNA synthesis or act directly on the DNA. In any case, damaged DNA and a slowed down DNA Repair Enzyme System lead to a snowballing cycle of aging > damage > aging > damage, etc. If the unrepaired DNA damage occurs in a cell which gives rise to a sperm or egg cell, the damage will be replicated in every cell of the offspring's body and will lead to a birth defect. Unrepaired damage of a segment of DNA responsible for control of cell growth can lead to tumors and/or cancer. In the 1930s, H. Trendly Dean of the U.S. Public Health Service conducted extensive surveys which showed that as fluoride levels in the water increased, so did the incidence of dental fluorosis. Then Dr. Gerald Cox, on the staff of the Mellon Institute (the Mellons owned ALCOA Aluminum, a fluoride-polluting industry), claimed that if some fluoride was bad for teeth, a smaller amount was good and should be added to the water. In the late 1930s, Dean started publishing purposely skewed data to show that fluoride caused reduction in tooth decay. The USPHS was under the jurisdiction of Treasury Secretary Andrew Mellon, founder of ALCOA. Dr. Cox convinced a Wisconsin dentist, J. J. Frisch, to promote the addition of fluoride to the water supply. This was the beginning of the infiltration into the ADA & the AMA all to find an outlet for the by-product fluoride from the phosphate fertilizer and the aluminum industries. What part of this do you contest Flux? I invite any reader to go to google, punch in ï¿½Fluoride + toxicityï¿½ and see what you come up with. Go on, DO IT!Saying Fluoride ï¿½is a good thingï¿½ is like saying ï¿½mercury is a good thingï¿½ because we fix holes in our teeth with it.Fluoride accumulates in the bones and teeth making them harder and more brittle. Whether this is an intelligent remedy against high sugar diets is questionable to say the least.Please tell me where nice fluffy Fluoride comes from?You try to ï¿½proveï¿½ Fluoride is not a poison because damage from poisons are irreversible. The effects of every poison does NOT go from zero, to irreversible damage. It all depends on the dose. We would all be dead otherwise. You STILL havenï¿½t told me the toxicity rating of Fluoride. Come on?You seem to confuse ï¿½Skeletal Fluorosisï¿½ with Fluorosis. Didnï¿½t you follow the links. IBS symptoms are early signs of Fluorosis.Again I'm asking. Don't take my word test it?take care Len


----------



## norbert46 (Feb 20, 2001)

Hey Flux, those crazy Aussies think just because 4 of our dollars converts into 7 of their dollars that your 4 links convert into 7 Aussie links?







JuniorPS: Just to show you how crazy those Aussies are, here is an article where they are trying to claim an Aussie Forklift driver is the "real" King of England?







http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,405...3^13780,00.html


----------



## norbert46 (Feb 20, 2001)

Hey Flux, those crazy Aussies think just because 4 of our dollars converts into 7 of their dollars that your 4 links convert into 7 Aussie links?







JuniorPS: Just to show you how crazy those Aussies are, here is an article where they are trying to claim an Aussie Forklift driver is the "real" King of England?







http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,405...3^13780,00.html


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

To my logical mind, 4 out of 7 is a majority. Besides, two stories were duplicated so that 3 links could have told the entire collection of stories you posted.


> quote: What counts as modern day? One of those reports is over 20 years old. Where would reports from earlier come from.


Modern day in the context I used it refers to people eating a Western diet, not their original native diet. This change has been happening for much longer than 20 years.So, flux, if you can't find it on the internet, I guess that means it doesn't exist? For someone who apparently spends most of their life peering into a computer screen, maybe that is true, but my 4 year old granddaughter can connect to the internet and find information of interest to her, too.Earlier reports of anthropologists and others are available to me in original printed form and what I have said comes from those.On top of that, I lived for some years in the Torres Strait, the sea passage between Australia and New Guinea, and I now live in a North Australian city which is the center of education for most Papua Nuigineans (as they are known).


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

To my logical mind, 4 out of 7 is a majority. Besides, two stories were duplicated so that 3 links could have told the entire collection of stories you posted.


> quote: What counts as modern day? One of those reports is over 20 years old. Where would reports from earlier come from.


Modern day in the context I used it refers to people eating a Western diet, not their original native diet. This change has been happening for much longer than 20 years.So, flux, if you can't find it on the internet, I guess that means it doesn't exist? For someone who apparently spends most of their life peering into a computer screen, maybe that is true, but my 4 year old granddaughter can connect to the internet and find information of interest to her, too.Earlier reports of anthropologists and others are available to me in original printed form and what I have said comes from those.On top of that, I lived for some years in the Torres Strait, the sea passage between Australia and New Guinea, and I now live in a North Australian city which is the center of education for most Papua Nuigineans (as they are known).


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Further reply to Flux,Flux says ï¿½its common sense that in a world without Fluoride there would be rampant decayï¿½. ï¿½commonï¿½ it may be, but is this sense? Fluoride is indisputably an extremely powerful poison. ONE of its effects is to harden and brittle bone and teeth. No-one disputes this effect, but scientists argue as to whether it is necessarily ï¿½a good thingï¿½. Is it a pathological effect that we find useful to correct a #### diet?The trouble is, it has a multitude of other affects on our bodies at sub-lethal doses.ï¿½Common senseï¿½ in this instance is ï¿½mass-manufactured opinionï¿½.Your statement presupposes the great error. ï¿½That Fluoride is about teethï¿½. The Fluoride you swallow doesnï¿½t know you only intend it to affect your teeth!!! As far as I know, No country has set an RDA for Fluoride, because it is a poison that we are not certain is necessary at all. We may INTERPRET one of its effects as useful against #### diets, but that is not dealing with the real problem. e.g. Tobacco is supposed to reduce the chances of getting Alzheimerï¿½s disease. Does that mean we show put it in the water, neglecting its other effects?e.g.Vitamin A is not only ï¿½ a good thingï¿½ but it is essential to our biology.( Fluoride is not).Nevertheless no-one suggests adding Vitamin A to water. Why not? Because it is toxic, in overdose, and we would have no control of the dose. How stupid is it to added something non-essential, that is infinitely more toxic, to water? BUT, If they were scraping Vitamin A out of factory chimneys, and if it were such a powerful poison that they werenï¿½t allowed to discharge it into the environment, you can bet that some bright spark would invent the idea of ï¿½sellingï¿½ this ï¿½problem wasteï¿½ to water companies! Fluoridation is a brilliant American answer to a toxic waste problem. Thatï¿½s the history of it. They have exported this wheeze to a few other English speaking countries. Most countries ban Fluoridation because it is a nefarious poison.NO AMMOUNT OF ï¿½DENTAL EVIDENCEï¿½ ANSWERS THE OTHER EVIDENCE ABOUT FLUORIDE. It hardens and brittles teeth and boneï¿½.. provenIt causes a multitude of other effectsï¿½ï¿½provenIt causes IBS symptomsï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½proven http://www.npwa.freeserve.co.uk/IBS.html


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Further reply to Flux,Flux says ï¿½its common sense that in a world without Fluoride there would be rampant decayï¿½. ï¿½commonï¿½ it may be, but is this sense? Fluoride is indisputably an extremely powerful poison. ONE of its effects is to harden and brittle bone and teeth. No-one disputes this effect, but scientists argue as to whether it is necessarily ï¿½a good thingï¿½. Is it a pathological effect that we find useful to correct a #### diet?The trouble is, it has a multitude of other affects on our bodies at sub-lethal doses.ï¿½Common senseï¿½ in this instance is ï¿½mass-manufactured opinionï¿½.Your statement presupposes the great error. ï¿½That Fluoride is about teethï¿½. The Fluoride you swallow doesnï¿½t know you only intend it to affect your teeth!!! As far as I know, No country has set an RDA for Fluoride, because it is a poison that we are not certain is necessary at all. We may INTERPRET one of its effects as useful against #### diets, but that is not dealing with the real problem. e.g. Tobacco is supposed to reduce the chances of getting Alzheimerï¿½s disease. Does that mean we show put it in the water, neglecting its other effects?e.g.Vitamin A is not only ï¿½ a good thingï¿½ but it is essential to our biology.( Fluoride is not).Nevertheless no-one suggests adding Vitamin A to water. Why not? Because it is toxic, in overdose, and we would have no control of the dose. How stupid is it to added something non-essential, that is infinitely more toxic, to water? BUT, If they were scraping Vitamin A out of factory chimneys, and if it were such a powerful poison that they werenï¿½t allowed to discharge it into the environment, you can bet that some bright spark would invent the idea of ï¿½sellingï¿½ this ï¿½problem wasteï¿½ to water companies! Fluoridation is a brilliant American answer to a toxic waste problem. Thatï¿½s the history of it. They have exported this wheeze to a few other English speaking countries. Most countries ban Fluoridation because it is a nefarious poison.NO AMMOUNT OF ï¿½DENTAL EVIDENCEï¿½ ANSWERS THE OTHER EVIDENCE ABOUT FLUORIDE. It hardens and brittles teeth and boneï¿½.. provenIt causes a multitude of other effectsï¿½ï¿½provenIt causes IBS symptomsï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½proven http://www.npwa.freeserve.co.uk/IBS.html


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

To Flux again,"Water fluoridation is the greatest case of scientific fraud of this century, if not of all time."Dr Robert Carton, former President of the Union of Government Scientists at the US Environmental Protection Agency"It has long been known that excessive fluoride intake carries serious toxic effects. But scientists are now debating whether fluoride confers any benefit at all."UNICEFIf you want the WHOLE truth about a CHEMICAL do you go to a Dentist?I suggest these are more "balanced sources"(But I guess they'll change their minds once they hear you say "Fluoride's a good thing").Don't take my word, or anyone else's. We need dozens of volunteers at least to TEST how big a phenomenom this is.This may be a great club to hang out in, but isn't anyone interested in trying to get better?Take care Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

To Flux again,"Water fluoridation is the greatest case of scientific fraud of this century, if not of all time."Dr Robert Carton, former President of the Union of Government Scientists at the US Environmental Protection Agency"It has long been known that excessive fluoride intake carries serious toxic effects. But scientists are now debating whether fluoride confers any benefit at all."UNICEFIf you want the WHOLE truth about a CHEMICAL do you go to a Dentist?I suggest these are more "balanced sources"(But I guess they'll change their minds once they hear you say "Fluoride's a good thing").Don't take my word, or anyone else's. We need dozens of volunteers at least to TEST how big a phenomenom this is.This may be a great club to hang out in, but isn't anyone interested in trying to get better?Take care Len


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

> quote:This may be a great club to hang out in. but isn't anyone interested in trying to get better?


Where have you been, Len? I gave up on that plea a couple of years ago, particulatly as it applies to diet. No one here is the least bit interested.All they can talk about is rubbish like Atkins Diet and how the big chemical and pharmaceutical companies know what is best for us.Flux is a willing victim of, and an apologist for chemical and pharmaceutical company bullsh*t and has convinced himself no one else knows anything about anything.


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

> quote:This may be a great club to hang out in. but isn't anyone interested in trying to get better?


Where have you been, Len? I gave up on that plea a couple of years ago, particulatly as it applies to diet. No one here is the least bit interested.All they can talk about is rubbish like Atkins Diet and how the big chemical and pharmaceutical companies know what is best for us.Flux is a willing victim of, and an apologist for chemical and pharmaceutical company bullsh*t and has convinced himself no one else knows anything about anything.


----------



## mdonbru (Oct 15, 2003)

I wonder why anyone would want to argue with someone here who says they have been helped by something they have tried or are trying. Haven't we all been through enough not to be jumped all over on this BB? We all need to remember that IBS is a catch-all term for anything the docs can't definitively diagnose as something else. Your IBS is not necessarily the same or is caused by the same things as someone else's. If Lenharley has found an answer for himself, I think it is generous of him to share it with us, as it's possible it may help one of us. I'm thinking of trying it, too. Why the hell not? What have I got to lose? Diarrhea and pain, that's what.


----------



## mdonbru (Oct 15, 2003)

I wonder why anyone would want to argue with someone here who says they have been helped by something they have tried or are trying. Haven't we all been through enough not to be jumped all over on this BB? We all need to remember that IBS is a catch-all term for anything the docs can't definitively diagnose as something else. Your IBS is not necessarily the same or is caused by the same things as someone else's. If Lenharley has found an answer for himself, I think it is generous of him to share it with us, as it's possible it may help one of us. I'm thinking of trying it, too. Why the hell not? What have I got to lose? Diarrhea and pain, that's what.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Fluoride IS a poison!


Summarized,









> quote:To my logical mind, 4 out of 7 is a majority. Besides, two stories were duplicated so that 3 links could have told the entire collection of stories you posted.


Now 4 is 4 out of 7? And where are the two duplicated stories, in the other three?


> quote:Modern day in the context I used it refers to people eating a Western diet, not their original native diet. This change has been happening for much longer than 20 years.


The diet the people were on in those studies was not given in the abstracts.


> quote:Earlier reports of anthropologists and others are available to me in original printed form and what I have said comes from those.


Where are they?


> quote:, I lived for some years in the Torres Strait, the sea passage between Australia and New Guinea, and I now live in a North Australian city which is the center of education for most Papua Nuigineans (as they are known).


So?


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Fluoride IS a poison!


Summarized,









> quote:To my logical mind, 4 out of 7 is a majority. Besides, two stories were duplicated so that 3 links could have told the entire collection of stories you posted.


Now 4 is 4 out of 7? And where are the two duplicated stories, in the other three?


> quote:Modern day in the context I used it refers to people eating a Western diet, not their original native diet. This change has been happening for much longer than 20 years.


The diet the people were on in those studies was not given in the abstracts.


> quote:Earlier reports of anthropologists and others are available to me in original printed form and what I have said comes from those.


Where are they?


> quote:, I lived for some years in the Torres Strait, the sea passage between Australia and New Guinea, and I now live in a North Australian city which is the center of education for most Papua Nuigineans (as they are known).


So?


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

> quote:So?


Well, at least I'm getting your attention, flux! Many here complain you never respond to their questions."So", I know these people and their ways from first hand experience, my children shared boarding school facilities with PNG students. I managed a conference centre that had PNG students stay many times. They requested ordinary meals that everyone here eats and sure as hell never asked me to give them wild pig and casserole of yam! There is no doubt that students, even in the early 80's would not have been eating their traditional diet, which for many, consisted of little else but yam.I still have some contact with PNG people so I know their lifestyle and habits.FYI, studies of the peoples of this region go back to the 19th century. The world existed long before you acquired a computer, flux.No, I won't be sharing my sources with you any more than you share yours, apart from the #### you find on the net.You need to get your butt off that computer chair and go see the real world, flux, then you might not be so sure you know everything just because you found it on the net.


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

> quote:So?


Well, at least I'm getting your attention, flux! Many here complain you never respond to their questions."So", I know these people and their ways from first hand experience, my children shared boarding school facilities with PNG students. I managed a conference centre that had PNG students stay many times. They requested ordinary meals that everyone here eats and sure as hell never asked me to give them wild pig and casserole of yam! There is no doubt that students, even in the early 80's would not have been eating their traditional diet, which for many, consisted of little else but yam.I still have some contact with PNG people so I know their lifestyle and habits.FYI, studies of the peoples of this region go back to the 19th century. The world existed long before you acquired a computer, flux.No, I won't be sharing my sources with you any more than you share yours, apart from the #### you find on the net.You need to get your butt off that computer chair and go see the real world, flux, then you might not be so sure you know everything just because you found it on the net.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: traditional diet, which for many, consisted of little else but yam.


Would that protect them from dental caries? Something with simple carbohdrates like fruits certainly would cause caries big time, but yams would probably not carry that risk.


> quote:I won't be sharing my sources with you any more than you share yours


But we don't have any hard evidence that either claim of yours is true.


> quote: apart from the #### you find on the net


And you discount purely factual information simply because it appears or is referenced on the web? Logic? Could you be telling us a tall tale after all?


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: traditional diet, which for many, consisted of little else but yam.


Would that protect them from dental caries? Something with simple carbohdrates like fruits certainly would cause caries big time, but yams would probably not carry that risk.


> quote:I won't be sharing my sources with you any more than you share yours


But we don't have any hard evidence that either claim of yours is true.


> quote: apart from the #### you find on the net


And you discount purely factual information simply because it appears or is referenced on the web? Logic? Could you be telling us a tall tale after all?


----------



## Linda mac (Feb 24, 2002)

Yes, I agree: all of us know our own bodies and it's reaction to all manner of things. I find that stress...which I have already defined, is a definite trigger for me vis-a-vis my IBS. As willie says we all have it to some degree. I have a high pressure job, and a lot of responsibility. There are times when it gets to me...I'm not as young as I used to be...and I find that those are the times when my IBS flares up. The last major flare-up, which immobilized me was when my Mother died. We were extremely close.Luilu


----------



## Linda mac (Feb 24, 2002)

Yes, I agree: all of us know our own bodies and it's reaction to all manner of things. I find that stress...which I have already defined, is a definite trigger for me vis-a-vis my IBS. As willie says we all have it to some degree. I have a high pressure job, and a lot of responsibility. There are times when it gets to me...I'm not as young as I used to be...and I find that those are the times when my IBS flares up. The last major flare-up, which immobilized me was when my Mother died. We were extremely close.Luilu


----------



## Feisty (Aug 14, 2000)

There's no doubt that stress can play a role in IBS. Is it the cause? Nope. Nadda. I will never believe that.


----------



## Feisty (Aug 14, 2000)

There's no doubt that stress can play a role in IBS. Is it the cause? Nope. Nadda. I will never believe that.


----------



## Persistance (Jul 11, 1999)

> quote:Flux is a willing victim of, and an apologist for chemical and pharmaceutical company bullsh*t


Comeon, Red, even you know that's not true. Without chemicals and pharmaceuticals, there would be no cancer medications, no aspirins, even...certainly no Lotronex, no heart-saving nitroglycerin, no cholesterol lowering drugs. You are throwing out the baby with the bathwater, I'm afraid.


----------



## Persistance (Jul 11, 1999)

> quote:Flux is a willing victim of, and an apologist for chemical and pharmaceutical company bullsh*t


Comeon, Red, even you know that's not true. Without chemicals and pharmaceuticals, there would be no cancer medications, no aspirins, even...certainly no Lotronex, no heart-saving nitroglycerin, no cholesterol lowering drugs. You are throwing out the baby with the bathwater, I'm afraid.


----------



## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Redclaw the Atkins diet is nothing to be taken lightly. It works. I go one step further and eliminate ALL FRUITS AND VEGGIES. I am in 00% remission with a fructose free diet.The Atkins diet works because few carbohydrates mean less gas. Rtention of gas leads to abdominal distension and the distribution of gas affects symptom perception. If there is no gas to retain or get distributed, voila there are no symptoms like bloating etc. Removing fruits and veggies could affect your D if you have it. I don't know what your symptoms are but the Atkins diet is worth more a shot than fluoride!


----------



## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Redclaw the Atkins diet is nothing to be taken lightly. It works. I go one step further and eliminate ALL FRUITS AND VEGGIES. I am in 00% remission with a fructose free diet.The Atkins diet works because few carbohydrates mean less gas. Rtention of gas leads to abdominal distension and the distribution of gas affects symptom perception. If there is no gas to retain or get distributed, voila there are no symptoms like bloating etc. Removing fruits and veggies could affect your D if you have it. I don't know what your symptoms are but the Atkins diet is worth more a shot than fluoride!


----------



## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

A question to lenharley. I assume you were having regular hot tea? Not with herbs etc. HerBS can cause their oown symptopms.


----------



## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

A question to lenharley. I assume you were having regular hot tea? Not with herbs etc. HerBS can cause their oown symptopms.


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

To Flux,When I first posted my experience you said you ï¿½didnï¿½t believe itï¿½. The only reason you gave for disbelieving me was that you believe ï¿½Fluoride is safeï¿½.I have continued with this ï¿½debateï¿½ to see if you had any rational basis for this faith in Fluoride. I have posted evidence of its toxicity and links to its proven gastro-intestinal aggressivity.Since then, I have asked you repeatedly to find out about Fluorideï¿½s toxicity and tell me.You have not done so. Could it be you donï¿½t want this block to believing me removed?I repeat the request again. You cannot consider the evidence for Fluoride-induced IBS rationally, until you are prepared to suspend, at least temporarily, your faith in Fluorideï¿½s fluffy image.Your latest ï¿½answerï¿½ is a picture of a Salami. Is this a discussion group or a platform for cheap, snide, shots. To everyone else,For anyone with an open mind and genuinely interested in whether some IBS can be cured by avoiding Fluoride. Please do not take my word for it. Check out the IBS/Fluoride link for yourself. But if you are sceptical because you also have a cosy view of Fluoride. Check out F for yourselves. There is any amount of Science on the web about Fluoride. Check out both ï¿½sidesï¿½.Iï¿½ll bet you will find out that thereï¿½s a ton of well funded studies that all repeat that F hardens teeth. Youï¿½ll also find tons of less well-funded (I wonder why) research on the various toxic affects of even small doses of Fluoride.How should you weigh them. I suggest ï¿½Persistencesï¿½ quote above "Seek not the favor of the multitude; it is seldom got by honest and lawful means. But seek the testimony of few; and number not voices, but weigh them."--- Emmanuel KantRemember. We are not discussing the hardening of teeth here. Even if this hardening were proved to be wise there are wiser, more controllable, ways to get a powerful poison into bodies. But if you put it in the water supply, every time you flush the toilet or wash the car you pass this (otherwise forbidden) toxin legally into the environment. Just think of all the extra toxic waste you can sell to dose a whole water supply instead of making a few tablets! If you didnï¿½t sell it, you would have a very expensive disposal problem. Itï¿½s a dream solution! Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

To Flux,When I first posted my experience you said you ï¿½didnï¿½t believe itï¿½. The only reason you gave for disbelieving me was that you believe ï¿½Fluoride is safeï¿½.I have continued with this ï¿½debateï¿½ to see if you had any rational basis for this faith in Fluoride. I have posted evidence of its toxicity and links to its proven gastro-intestinal aggressivity.Since then, I have asked you repeatedly to find out about Fluorideï¿½s toxicity and tell me.You have not done so. Could it be you donï¿½t want this block to believing me removed?I repeat the request again. You cannot consider the evidence for Fluoride-induced IBS rationally, until you are prepared to suspend, at least temporarily, your faith in Fluorideï¿½s fluffy image.Your latest ï¿½answerï¿½ is a picture of a Salami. Is this a discussion group or a platform for cheap, snide, shots. To everyone else,For anyone with an open mind and genuinely interested in whether some IBS can be cured by avoiding Fluoride. Please do not take my word for it. Check out the IBS/Fluoride link for yourself. But if you are sceptical because you also have a cosy view of Fluoride. Check out F for yourselves. There is any amount of Science on the web about Fluoride. Check out both ï¿½sidesï¿½.Iï¿½ll bet you will find out that thereï¿½s a ton of well funded studies that all repeat that F hardens teeth. Youï¿½ll also find tons of less well-funded (I wonder why) research on the various toxic affects of even small doses of Fluoride.How should you weigh them. I suggest ï¿½Persistencesï¿½ quote above "Seek not the favor of the multitude; it is seldom got by honest and lawful means. But seek the testimony of few; and number not voices, but weigh them."--- Emmanuel KantRemember. We are not discussing the hardening of teeth here. Even if this hardening were proved to be wise there are wiser, more controllable, ways to get a powerful poison into bodies. But if you put it in the water supply, every time you flush the toilet or wash the car you pass this (otherwise forbidden) toxin legally into the environment. Just think of all the extra toxic waste you can sell to dose a whole water supply instead of making a few tablets! If you didnï¿½t sell it, you would have a very expensive disposal problem. Itï¿½s a dream solution! Len


----------



## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Len Harley from your lack of response to my question you were taking herbal teas. That explains everything.







Chamomile gave me heart palpitation and peppermint gave me the most horrid smelling gas which got released more frequently than usual.


----------



## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Len Harley from your lack of response to my question you were taking herbal teas. That explains everything.







Chamomile gave me heart palpitation and peppermint gave me the most horrid smelling gas which got released more frequently than usual.


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

To Bonniei,No Bonniei , I never drank herbal teas at all until AFTER I was forced to give up real tea.Now I have a very occasional one, but never, ever camomile. To Flux,Oh! I get it. The picture of a "salami" is a "baloney". I hope you'll understand that's much more common in the US! The meat product I mean. Hardly known in UK.So that's the level of debate. Excuse me if I refuse to trade single words of abuse with you.I assume that this means you have no intention of coming up with any substantive responses.Even with your mysterious special "access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others". I suppose that means you know special stuff that we can't find out, so we should all respectfully take your word from the fount of secret knowledge.You say "Fluoride is safe" and all the Science I send you is "baloney". They sure use fancy language in these special unavailable reports.BUT IF THERE IS ANY STUDY THAT HAS EVEN EXAMINED PROFESSOR SUSHEELA'S LINK BETWEEN IBS & FLUORIDE THERE ARE MEDICS AND SCIENTISTS STUDYING IBS WHO WOULD LIKE TO KNOW ABOUT IT. I hope it won't emperil National Security to release this to them.To those observing, Some may have absolute faith in the secret knowledge of Flux that he cannot, or will not, reveal. To those with open minds. PLEASE do some research. Go to a search engine put in Fluoride + toxicity see what you come up with. Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

To Bonniei,No Bonniei , I never drank herbal teas at all until AFTER I was forced to give up real tea.Now I have a very occasional one, but never, ever camomile. To Flux,Oh! I get it. The picture of a "salami" is a "baloney". I hope you'll understand that's much more common in the US! The meat product I mean. Hardly known in UK.So that's the level of debate. Excuse me if I refuse to trade single words of abuse with you.I assume that this means you have no intention of coming up with any substantive responses.Even with your mysterious special "access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others". I suppose that means you know special stuff that we can't find out, so we should all respectfully take your word from the fount of secret knowledge.You say "Fluoride is safe" and all the Science I send you is "baloney". They sure use fancy language in these special unavailable reports.BUT IF THERE IS ANY STUDY THAT HAS EVEN EXAMINED PROFESSOR SUSHEELA'S LINK BETWEEN IBS & FLUORIDE THERE ARE MEDICS AND SCIENTISTS STUDYING IBS WHO WOULD LIKE TO KNOW ABOUT IT. I hope it won't emperil National Security to release this to them.To those observing, Some may have absolute faith in the secret knowledge of Flux that he cannot, or will not, reveal. To those with open minds. PLEASE do some research. Go to a search engine put in Fluoride + toxicity see what you come up with. Len


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:I have posted evidence of its toxicity and links to its proven gastro-intestinal aggressivity.


It's all a


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:I have posted evidence of its toxicity and links to its proven gastro-intestinal aggressivity.


It's all a


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

To Flux,Is that it? Another "Yah booh"? That's all you can offer?From your self-proclaimed pedestal of mysterious special access to medical knowledge unavailable to mortals like us....with your pious warnings against falsehood and fabrication...coupled with professional-sounding admonitions to consult medical professionals (Your signature), you certainly like to portray a serious, superior image of yourself.FROM ALL THIS, all you can offer is mere grunts of sulky contradiction.(1)Please delve into your mysterious resources and come up with a single reputable study that examines and rejects Professor Susheela's IBS/Fluoride link?(2)Please I repeat, yet again, tell me the toxicity rating of Fluoride?(3)What SPECIFIC claim, that I have made on Fluoride's toxicity, do you dispute? (4)IF YOU CANNOT SPECIFY A SINGLE ERROR, YOU MUST LOGICALLY ACCEPT THEM ALL AS TRUE.Some people who engage in your "yahbooh" language would say "Put up or..." But I would much rather ask you politely to do me the courtesy of believing me, unless you have evidence, other than your established prejudices, against what I am saying. If you have evidence , let's hear it please.Thank youLen


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

To Flux,Is that it? Another "Yah booh"? That's all you can offer?From your self-proclaimed pedestal of mysterious special access to medical knowledge unavailable to mortals like us....with your pious warnings against falsehood and fabrication...coupled with professional-sounding admonitions to consult medical professionals (Your signature), you certainly like to portray a serious, superior image of yourself.FROM ALL THIS, all you can offer is mere grunts of sulky contradiction.(1)Please delve into your mysterious resources and come up with a single reputable study that examines and rejects Professor Susheela's IBS/Fluoride link?(2)Please I repeat, yet again, tell me the toxicity rating of Fluoride?(3)What SPECIFIC claim, that I have made on Fluoride's toxicity, do you dispute? (4)IF YOU CANNOT SPECIFY A SINGLE ERROR, YOU MUST LOGICALLY ACCEPT THEM ALL AS TRUE.Some people who engage in your "yahbooh" language would say "Put up or..." But I would much rather ask you politely to do me the courtesy of believing me, unless you have evidence, other than your established prejudices, against what I am saying. If you have evidence , let's hear it please.Thank youLen


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote4)IF YOU CANNOT SPECIFY A SINGLE ERROR, YOU MUST LOGICALLY ACCEPT THEM ALL AS TRUE


It is up to the people making claims contrary to established facts to provide the evidence. All they have now is an active


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote4)IF YOU CANNOT SPECIFY A SINGLE ERROR, YOU MUST LOGICALLY ACCEPT THEM ALL AS TRUE


It is up to the people making claims contrary to established facts to provide the evidence. All they have now is an active


----------



## Guest (Dec 31, 2003)

Fluxorini, do you ever respond with your own hasbarah?


----------



## Guest (Dec 31, 2003)

Fluxorini, do you ever respond with your own hasbarah?


----------



## stargazer (Dec 26, 2000)

Len, I would seriously ignore Flux. You are not his only victim of "cute" little graphics that aren't cute but he rarely comes back with real information refruting yours. It's a lost cause.Edited to add: I don't believe Flouride had anything to do with my IBS and I currently live in an area where it's not in the water but if removing or reducing it worked for you, then good for you! Everyone is looking for the right solution that works for them.


----------



## stargazer (Dec 26, 2000)

Len, I would seriously ignore Flux. You are not his only victim of "cute" little graphics that aren't cute but he rarely comes back with real information refruting yours. It's a lost cause.Edited to add: I don't believe Flouride had anything to do with my IBS and I currently live in an area where it's not in the water but if removing or reducing it worked for you, then good for you! Everyone is looking for the right solution that works for them.


----------



## Guest (Dec 31, 2003)

i'm willing to try this. i'm willing to try anything to get better. i have noticed that i get noticably worse when i'm drinking tea - even the decaf stuff. my sinuses swell up too - almost immediately and i thoguht maybe it was allergies. years ago my doc gave me some flouride paste to put on my teeth and I cannot use it b/c the next day I'll have horrible ibs. i don't think this really proves anything - sometimes just the taste of things can trigger ibs in me, so who knows. but willing to try. i don't think stress causes most ibs either as I was stressed a long time and never had one day of stomach problems till i changed my diet to high carb (the most likely trigger or cause of my ibs).one thing about pharmaceutical companies. not all medicines are so good for you. my dad had really high blood pressure and high cholesterol - was resisting being put on drugs for years b/c of the accompanying negative effects they have on you. i sent him a book about eating for your heart - published by a Stanford doctor. The doctor he goes to said, sure you can try it if you want,but take these pills - here take these pills!!!! My dad said no. Then doctor found out that omega 3 is helpful for lowering cholestorol and other heart issues. My dad started taking some. Finally after like 10 years of very high blood pressure and cholesterol values - ALL his values are normal - within a month???!!!. he made no other changes to his diet or exercise plan. i think that is amazing. one thing makes sense - that all these chronic diseases that lots of americans get must be related to diet or something with our lifestyle. it doesn't make sense that so many would have these problems and have to take medication for life. That cannot be the way nature intended. I just don't believe in it anymore. My sinus problems have been greatly relieved with natural and medical solutions. the "really good and wonderful medicines" made things worse in my situation. i have 20 years of consistent data on that and finally a doctor who is noticing the same in his patients. i think we really do need to question western medicine b/c its not all gravy. And how many of us have been helped by it? Most of these ibs meds haven't helped us. Seems like the most effective "medicine" has been diet change and alternative.


----------



## Guest (Dec 31, 2003)

i'm willing to try this. i'm willing to try anything to get better. i have noticed that i get noticably worse when i'm drinking tea - even the decaf stuff. my sinuses swell up too - almost immediately and i thoguht maybe it was allergies. years ago my doc gave me some flouride paste to put on my teeth and I cannot use it b/c the next day I'll have horrible ibs. i don't think this really proves anything - sometimes just the taste of things can trigger ibs in me, so who knows. but willing to try. i don't think stress causes most ibs either as I was stressed a long time and never had one day of stomach problems till i changed my diet to high carb (the most likely trigger or cause of my ibs).one thing about pharmaceutical companies. not all medicines are so good for you. my dad had really high blood pressure and high cholesterol - was resisting being put on drugs for years b/c of the accompanying negative effects they have on you. i sent him a book about eating for your heart - published by a Stanford doctor. The doctor he goes to said, sure you can try it if you want,but take these pills - here take these pills!!!! My dad said no. Then doctor found out that omega 3 is helpful for lowering cholestorol and other heart issues. My dad started taking some. Finally after like 10 years of very high blood pressure and cholesterol values - ALL his values are normal - within a month???!!!. he made no other changes to his diet or exercise plan. i think that is amazing. one thing makes sense - that all these chronic diseases that lots of americans get must be related to diet or something with our lifestyle. it doesn't make sense that so many would have these problems and have to take medication for life. That cannot be the way nature intended. I just don't believe in it anymore. My sinus problems have been greatly relieved with natural and medical solutions. the "really good and wonderful medicines" made things worse in my situation. i have 20 years of consistent data on that and finally a doctor who is noticing the same in his patients. i think we really do need to question western medicine b/c its not all gravy. And how many of us have been helped by it? Most of these ibs meds haven't helped us. Seems like the most effective "medicine" has been diet change and alternative.


----------



## HipJan (Apr 9, 1999)

thank you for the information, len. I'm willing to believe that there can be a large variety of triggers for IBS, be they chemicals (as in fluoride), certain foods (and esp. poor nutrition), or whatever.as for "stress" causing IBS and much other illness, that is another subject altogether - and a BIG one!p.s. bonniei - am just curious as to how you can get away with eating no fruits or veggies (esp. veggies)? the typical body cannot do well for very long without them.


----------



## HipJan (Apr 9, 1999)

thank you for the information, len. I'm willing to believe that there can be a large variety of triggers for IBS, be they chemicals (as in fluoride), certain foods (and esp. poor nutrition), or whatever.as for "stress" causing IBS and much other illness, that is another subject altogether - and a BIG one!p.s. bonniei - am just curious as to how you can get away with eating no fruits or veggies (esp. veggies)? the typical body cannot do well for very long without them.


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

To Flux, You qoute my request (4) What about (1) (2) & (3)???As to (4) you still don't come up with an single error. But apparently stand as the silent custodian of "established fact".Don't you realise you are challenging established fact when you dispute Fluoride's toxicity.To repeat form earlier, Re: FluorideIt hardens and brittles teeth and boneï¿½.. provenIt causes a multitude of other effectsï¿½ï¿½provenIt causes IBS symptomsï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½proven http://www.npwa.freeserve.co.uk/IBS.html Which "established fact" are you questioning?But really I think you stand for "establisment facts", which is not quite the same thing as "established facts".Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

To Flux, You qoute my request (4) What about (1) (2) & (3)???As to (4) you still don't come up with an single error. But apparently stand as the silent custodian of "established fact".Don't you realise you are challenging established fact when you dispute Fluoride's toxicity.To repeat form earlier, Re: FluorideIt hardens and brittles teeth and boneï¿½.. provenIt causes a multitude of other effectsï¿½ï¿½provenIt causes IBS symptomsï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½proven http://www.npwa.freeserve.co.uk/IBS.html Which "established fact" are you questioning?But really I think you stand for "establisment facts", which is not quite the same thing as "established facts".Len


----------



## HipJan (Apr 9, 1999)

"Although skeletal fluorosis has been studied intensely in other countries for more than 40 years, virtually no research has been done in the U.S. to determine how many people are afflicted with the earlier stages of the disease, particularly the preclinical stages. Because some of the clinical symptoms mimic arthritis, the first two clinical phases of skeletal fluorosis could be easily misdiagnosed. "Skeletal fluorosis is not even discussed in most medical texts under the effects of fluoride; indeed, a number of texts say the condition is almost nonexistent in the U.S. Even if a doctor is aware of the disease, the early stages are difficult to diagnose. " - Hileman B. (1988). Fluoridation of water.Questions about health risks and benefits remain after more than 40 years. Chemical and Engineering News. August 1, 1988, 26-42."- Just because Medical Science in the U.S. apparently hasn't properly researched the side-effects of (too much) fluoride is hardly justification for saying fluoride is perfectly safe. "[E]xtensive research from India has revealed severe arthritic changes and crippling neurological complications even where the fluoride concentration in water naturally is as low as 1.5 ppm..."- Interesting."The use of fluoride in the prophylaxis or treatment of osteoporosis seems highly questionable for the following reasons: (a) the therapeutic window is very narrow, (







15%-37% of patients do not respond to fluoride, © there are frequent gastrointestinal disturbances and arthralgias,..."- Interesting again."...When Luke found out that the pineal gland - a little gland in the center of the brain, responsible for a very large range of regulating activities (it produces *serotonin and melatonin*) - was also a calcifying tissue, like the teeth and the bones, she hypothesized it would concentrate fluoride to very high levels. The gland is not protected by the blood brain barrier and has a very high perfusion rate of blood, second only to the kidney."- Intriguing. http://www.crha-health.ab.ca/pophlth/hp/fl...de/hpgastro.htm


----------



## HipJan (Apr 9, 1999)

"Although skeletal fluorosis has been studied intensely in other countries for more than 40 years, virtually no research has been done in the U.S. to determine how many people are afflicted with the earlier stages of the disease, particularly the preclinical stages. Because some of the clinical symptoms mimic arthritis, the first two clinical phases of skeletal fluorosis could be easily misdiagnosed. "Skeletal fluorosis is not even discussed in most medical texts under the effects of fluoride; indeed, a number of texts say the condition is almost nonexistent in the U.S. Even if a doctor is aware of the disease, the early stages are difficult to diagnose. " - Hileman B. (1988). Fluoridation of water.Questions about health risks and benefits remain after more than 40 years. Chemical and Engineering News. August 1, 1988, 26-42."- Just because Medical Science in the U.S. apparently hasn't properly researched the side-effects of (too much) fluoride is hardly justification for saying fluoride is perfectly safe. "[E]xtensive research from India has revealed severe arthritic changes and crippling neurological complications even where the fluoride concentration in water naturally is as low as 1.5 ppm..."- Interesting."The use of fluoride in the prophylaxis or treatment of osteoporosis seems highly questionable for the following reasons: (a) the therapeutic window is very narrow, (







15%-37% of patients do not respond to fluoride, © there are frequent gastrointestinal disturbances and arthralgias,..."- Interesting again."...When Luke found out that the pineal gland - a little gland in the center of the brain, responsible for a very large range of regulating activities (it produces *serotonin and melatonin*) - was also a calcifying tissue, like the teeth and the bones, she hypothesized it would concentrate fluoride to very high levels. The gland is not protected by the blood brain barrier and has a very high perfusion rate of blood, second only to the kidney."- Intriguing. http://www.crha-health.ab.ca/pophlth/hp/fl...de/hpgastro.htm


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:"Although skeletal fluorosis has been studied intensely in other countries for more than 40 years, virtually no


How is anyone supposed to get an overdose to cause that? By eating toothpaste?


> quote:- Just because Medical Science in the U.S. apparently hasn't properly researched the side-effects of (too much) fluoride is hardly justification for saying fluoride is perfectly safe.


Logic? The ï¿½side-effectsï¿½ of the doses people are exposed to are well-known: they protect the teeth from caries.


> quote:"[E]xtensive research from India has revealed severe arthritic changes and crippling neurological complications even where the fluoride concentration in water naturally is as low as 1.5 ppm..."- Interesting.


Obvious fiction. Whatï¿½s interesting? That someone would make up statements out of whole cloth?


> quote:"...When Luke found out that the pineal gland - a little gland in the center of the brain, responsible for a very large range of regulating activities (it produces serotonin and melatonin) - was also a calcifying tissue, like the teeth and the bones, she hypothesized it would concentrate fluoride to very high levels. - Intriguing.


That it doesnï¿½t should be common sense. So whatï¿½s intriguing that someone could make this up?


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:"Although skeletal fluorosis has been studied intensely in other countries for more than 40 years, virtually no


How is anyone supposed to get an overdose to cause that? By eating toothpaste?


> quote:- Just because Medical Science in the U.S. apparently hasn't properly researched the side-effects of (too much) fluoride is hardly justification for saying fluoride is perfectly safe.


Logic? The ï¿½side-effectsï¿½ of the doses people are exposed to are well-known: they protect the teeth from caries.


> quote:"[E]xtensive research from India has revealed severe arthritic changes and crippling neurological complications even where the fluoride concentration in water naturally is as low as 1.5 ppm..."- Interesting.


Obvious fiction. Whatï¿½s interesting? That someone would make up statements out of whole cloth?


> quote:"...When Luke found out that the pineal gland - a little gland in the center of the brain, responsible for a very large range of regulating activities (it produces serotonin and melatonin) - was also a calcifying tissue, like the teeth and the bones, she hypothesized it would concentrate fluoride to very high levels. - Intriguing.


That it doesnï¿½t should be common sense. So whatï¿½s intriguing that someone could make this up?


----------



## HipJan (Apr 9, 1999)

We can't believe everything we read, that's for sure. But, you know, flux, if you were more open to possibilities (less rigid), less immediately reactive, and generally less negative, you might be a healthier person than you are. It's amazing what influences negativism can have on our health. Something for you, and all of us, to think about - but off topic, granted.P.S. On a different subject, I may direct another thread to you on a different subject.


----------



## HipJan (Apr 9, 1999)

We can't believe everything we read, that's for sure. But, you know, flux, if you were more open to possibilities (less rigid), less immediately reactive, and generally less negative, you might be a healthier person than you are. It's amazing what influences negativism can have on our health. Something for you, and all of us, to think about - but off topic, granted.P.S. On a different subject, I may direct another thread to you on a different subject.


----------



## HipJan (Apr 9, 1999)

> quote:One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.


Yup - but if only our medical professionals could always give us an answer, any answer!


----------



## HipJan (Apr 9, 1999)

> quote:One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.


Yup - but if only our medical professionals could always give us an answer, any answer!


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

Len, Wonder Boy flux is asking me to provide proof of what I say while refusing to do so for you.There is no obligation to provide anything on this forum.No one has to believe anything, just try it if you are interested in finding the cause of your affiction.Judy, I don't get your reasoning. Because I say flux is a victim and apologist for the big companies, does not translate to my having no faith at all in drug and chemical companies.But, I suspect a great many drugs being pushed on the public are unnecessary and dangerous.Fluoride is SAFE! YEAH!!Thalidomide is SAFE! YEAH!!How many others???


----------



## Redclaw (Sep 22, 2001)

Len, Wonder Boy flux is asking me to provide proof of what I say while refusing to do so for you.There is no obligation to provide anything on this forum.No one has to believe anything, just try it if you are interested in finding the cause of your affiction.Judy, I don't get your reasoning. Because I say flux is a victim and apologist for the big companies, does not translate to my having no faith at all in drug and chemical companies.But, I suspect a great many drugs being pushed on the public are unnecessary and dangerous.Fluoride is SAFE! YEAH!!Thalidomide is SAFE! YEAH!!How many others???


----------



## erin5983 (Mar 25, 2003)

I'm up for trying this. I have not looked yet, but what non-fluoride toothpastes are on the market? I thought fluoride was the key ingredient in preventing cavities?


----------



## erin5983 (Mar 25, 2003)

I'm up for trying this. I have not looked yet, but what non-fluoride toothpastes are on the market? I thought fluoride was the key ingredient in preventing cavities?


----------



## Persistance (Jul 11, 1999)

Fine, Redclaw, fine.HipJan, I so often agree with your sensible posts -- but -- there's a lot of people for whom Flux has saved time and money and worry who wouldn't view his posts as negative. I doubt the originator of skeptics.com or the folks who run Urban Legends.com view their sites as negative -- but a service to a net-surfing public who too often are confronted with an overwhelming array of pseudo-science, snake-oil pitches, flakes and bad information (oh, gosh, I think that last is Flux's phrase!







). Think of it as the scientific equivalent of cult-busting.


----------



## Persistance (Jul 11, 1999)

Fine, Redclaw, fine.HipJan, I so often agree with your sensible posts -- but -- there's a lot of people for whom Flux has saved time and money and worry who wouldn't view his posts as negative. I doubt the originator of skeptics.com or the folks who run Urban Legends.com view their sites as negative -- but a service to a net-surfing public who too often are confronted with an overwhelming array of pseudo-science, snake-oil pitches, flakes and bad information (oh, gosh, I think that last is Flux's phrase!







). Think of it as the scientific equivalent of cult-busting.


----------



## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

The reply I gave you HipJan on the Alternative healing thread belongs here. Hip Jan it has been about 1 and a half months since I went on no fruits or veggies. But I am not strict with the diet if I don't have to be around people. But I know if I want to be around people I have a sure remedy for it. Also I tend to eat fruits, veggies and juice at night occasionaly when my body craves carbs. I don't care if I have gas at nights when I am sleeping. So that is how I manage.


----------



## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

The reply I gave you HipJan on the Alternative healing thread belongs here. Hip Jan it has been about 1 and a half months since I went on no fruits or veggies. But I am not strict with the diet if I don't have to be around people. But I know if I want to be around people I have a sure remedy for it. Also I tend to eat fruits, veggies and juice at night occasionaly when my body craves carbs. I don't care if I have gas at nights when I am sleeping. So that is how I manage.


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Flux Why is everything you disagree with is ï¿½obvious fictionï¿½, against ï¿½common senseï¿½ or ï¿½doesnï¿½t ring trueï¿½. These are merely expressions of your current, conventional rigid beliefs. I donï¿½t know if youï¿½ve studied the History of Science, or Philosophy, but most ï¿½common sense,ï¿½ and most ï¿½established facts,ï¿½ were once new, highly-ridiculed ideas.It used to be ï¿½established fact,ï¿½ and is still ï¿½common sense?,ï¿½ that THE EARTH IS FLAT.I think we can all guess how you would have ridiculed the man who came up with the spherical earth idea. What fun you could have had sniping at him.To accept the pioneering thinking of others (once it is canonised by convention), whilst ridiculing people who continue to think, is intellectually lazy and parasitical.It betokens fear of freedom and growth.Qoute:ï¿½Obvious fiction. Whatï¿½s interesting? That someone would make up statements out of whole clothï¿½?Is this some reference to this research coming from India? (Huge producers of cloth)I hope this is not an attempt to trash research by intellectual racism.FYI the reason much of the general research on ALL the affects of Fluoride is done in India is that India has some soils with high Fluoride, and has long had good reason to do research on all the effects of Fluoride.The head of the Fluorosis Institute (Professor Susheela) has spent over 30years researching all aspects of Fluoride. She is a world, pre-emminet expert on Fluoride, writing over 100 papers on the subject. (And she says that IBS symptoms are caused by Fluoride).You will not rubbish this by a (racist?) reference to cloth. I WANT AN EXPLANATION, AND I REQUEST THE MODERATOR OF THIS FORUM TO LOOK AT THIS?As to HipJanï¿½ s ref: to the Pineal Gland Calcification by Fluoride:She is quite right. Go to Google, punch in ï¿½Pineal glandï¿½ + fluoride. Thereï¿½s reams of research and itï¿½s very worryingLen


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Flux Why is everything you disagree with is ï¿½obvious fictionï¿½, against ï¿½common senseï¿½ or ï¿½doesnï¿½t ring trueï¿½. These are merely expressions of your current, conventional rigid beliefs. I donï¿½t know if youï¿½ve studied the History of Science, or Philosophy, but most ï¿½common sense,ï¿½ and most ï¿½established facts,ï¿½ were once new, highly-ridiculed ideas.It used to be ï¿½established fact,ï¿½ and is still ï¿½common sense?,ï¿½ that THE EARTH IS FLAT.I think we can all guess how you would have ridiculed the man who came up with the spherical earth idea. What fun you could have had sniping at him.To accept the pioneering thinking of others (once it is canonised by convention), whilst ridiculing people who continue to think, is intellectually lazy and parasitical.It betokens fear of freedom and growth.Qoute:ï¿½Obvious fiction. Whatï¿½s interesting? That someone would make up statements out of whole clothï¿½?Is this some reference to this research coming from India? (Huge producers of cloth)I hope this is not an attempt to trash research by intellectual racism.FYI the reason much of the general research on ALL the affects of Fluoride is done in India is that India has some soils with high Fluoride, and has long had good reason to do research on all the effects of Fluoride.The head of the Fluorosis Institute (Professor Susheela) has spent over 30years researching all aspects of Fluoride. She is a world, pre-emminet expert on Fluoride, writing over 100 papers on the subject. (And she says that IBS symptoms are caused by Fluoride).You will not rubbish this by a (racist?) reference to cloth. I WANT AN EXPLANATION, AND I REQUEST THE MODERATOR OF THIS FORUM TO LOOK AT THIS?As to HipJanï¿½ s ref: to the Pineal Gland Calcification by Fluoride:She is quite right. Go to Google, punch in ï¿½Pineal glandï¿½ + fluoride. Thereï¿½s reams of research and itï¿½s very worryingLen


----------



## HipJan (Apr 9, 1999)

B, thanks, I was just curious. Hope you didn't mind my asking.P, well, I guess I can't always be "sensible" or completely tactful.







What I said to flux also applies to *all* of us - just a general comment based on observation. 1) Sometimes some of us can carry skepticism just too far. It pays to be open as well, in many ways. Well, we need balance. 2) I am also finding that "negative energy" can be detrimental to our health. All of us here have problems with health, and thus all of us could also stand to benefit by being more "positive" (excuse the triteness here). I most definitely include myself here.







P.S. I so believe that we cannot afford to be cavalier about evironmental ("external") factors negatively affecting our physical selves. While a bit of fluoride or mercury or pollution or antibiotics in meat or pesticides, etc., shouldn't pose any immediate threats, I'm afraid I am quite aware of the negative cumulative effects of toxins over time. The exposure to fluoride - or rather, in some cases, the overexposure to it - is just another thing we ought to be open to consider. And, yes, we should also be very thankful for the beneficial aspects of fluoride for our teeth (though too much can actually hurt our teeth). Again, "everything" is about balance.


----------



## HipJan (Apr 9, 1999)

B, thanks, I was just curious. Hope you didn't mind my asking.P, well, I guess I can't always be "sensible" or completely tactful.







What I said to flux also applies to *all* of us - just a general comment based on observation. 1) Sometimes some of us can carry skepticism just too far. It pays to be open as well, in many ways. Well, we need balance. 2) I am also finding that "negative energy" can be detrimental to our health. All of us here have problems with health, and thus all of us could also stand to benefit by being more "positive" (excuse the triteness here). I most definitely include myself here.







P.S. I so believe that we cannot afford to be cavalier about evironmental ("external") factors negatively affecting our physical selves. While a bit of fluoride or mercury or pollution or antibiotics in meat or pesticides, etc., shouldn't pose any immediate threats, I'm afraid I am quite aware of the negative cumulative effects of toxins over time. The exposure to fluoride - or rather, in some cases, the overexposure to it - is just another thing we ought to be open to consider. And, yes, we should also be very thankful for the beneficial aspects of fluoride for our teeth (though too much can actually hurt our teeth). Again, "everything" is about balance.


----------



## Stace (Sep 20, 2000)

I agree with you about the negativity, the need for balance and the need to consider environmental factors as well, HJ.


> quote:there's a lot of people for whom Flux has saved time and money and worry who wouldn't view his posts as negative.


And there's a lot of people Flux has chased away with his rudeness, skepticism and misinformation. Flux was dead wrong about my GI problems. If I had listened to him, I would still be suffering today. Thank goodness I continued my research and found a GI willing to work with me who gave me the diagnosis Flux said I couldn't possibly have. I had it, it was treated and I feel good.


----------



## Stace (Sep 20, 2000)

I agree with you about the negativity, the need for balance and the need to consider environmental factors as well, HJ.


> quote:there's a lot of people for whom Flux has saved time and money and worry who wouldn't view his posts as negative.


And there's a lot of people Flux has chased away with his rudeness, skepticism and misinformation. Flux was dead wrong about my GI problems. If I had listened to him, I would still be suffering today. Thank goodness I continued my research and found a GI willing to work with me who gave me the diagnosis Flux said I couldn't possibly have. I had it, it was treated and I feel good.


----------



## HipJan (Apr 9, 1999)

len, I am pretty sure flux didn't mean anything (racist) by the cloth comment. thanks again for bringing your information to our attention, by the way.







don't worry: you have been heard!stace, we do all need to listen to ourselves, don't we, as we can be our own best doctors and certainly our own best advocates! we get such a mixture of advice and theories on this BB, but we must wade through it all with open but critical minds and, hopefully with the help of our healthcare experts, come up with appropriate solutions.


----------



## HipJan (Apr 9, 1999)

len, I am pretty sure flux didn't mean anything (racist) by the cloth comment. thanks again for bringing your information to our attention, by the way.







don't worry: you have been heard!stace, we do all need to listen to ourselves, don't we, as we can be our own best doctors and certainly our own best advocates! we get such a mixture of advice and theories on this BB, but we must wade through it all with open but critical minds and, hopefully with the help of our healthcare experts, come up with appropriate solutions.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:I thought fluoride was the key ingredient in preventing cavities?


Isn't this something we learn as kids?


> quote: much of the general research on ALL the affects of Fluoride is done in India is that India has some soils with high Fluoride, and has long had good reason to do research on all the effects of Fluoride.


"High" fluoride? How can it have *any* relevance to the the effects of *therapeutic levels* of fluoride?


> quote:The head of the Fluorosis Institute (Professor Susheela) has spent over 30years researching all aspects of Fluoride. She is a world, pre-emminet expert on Fluoride, writing over 100 papers on the subject.


43 papers actually, and they seem to about "high" fluoride, not about the effects of *therapeutic levels* of fluoride.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:I thought fluoride was the key ingredient in preventing cavities?


Isn't this something we learn as kids?


> quote: much of the general research on ALL the affects of Fluoride is done in India is that India has some soils with high Fluoride, and has long had good reason to do research on all the effects of Fluoride.


"High" fluoride? How can it have *any* relevance to the the effects of *therapeutic levels* of fluoride?


> quote:The head of the Fluorosis Institute (Professor Susheela) has spent over 30years researching all aspects of Fluoride. She is a world, pre-emminet expert on Fluoride, writing over 100 papers on the subject.


43 papers actually, and they seem to about "high" fluoride, not about the effects of *therapeutic levels* of fluoride.


----------



## HipJan (Apr 9, 1999)

Exactly, flux, high levels. That is what we have been talking about on this thread. That which may at one time be therapeutic can at some other point become high. Sometimes we need to be cautioned about the dangers of excess so that we don't become blase. We needn't be alarmists, yet we shouldn't close our ears either. I feel it is perfectly reasonable that in certain situations - and perhaps more often than we now are aware - fluoride use or exposure can become excessive. It is worth studying.


----------



## HipJan (Apr 9, 1999)

Exactly, flux, high levels. That is what we have been talking about on this thread. That which may at one time be therapeutic can at some other point become high. Sometimes we need to be cautioned about the dangers of excess so that we don't become blase. We needn't be alarmists, yet we shouldn't close our ears either. I feel it is perfectly reasonable that in certain situations - and perhaps more often than we now are aware - fluoride use or exposure can become excessive. It is worth studying.


----------



## HipJan (Apr 9, 1999)

len, an interesting tidbit about that pineal gland blurb I posted.... last night I had been reading up about various glands (since I have glandular problems) and, so, I did a search for pineal gland. the fluoride link came up immediately - a coincidence!


----------



## HipJan (Apr 9, 1999)

len, an interesting tidbit about that pineal gland blurb I posted.... last night I had been reading up about various glands (since I have glandular problems) and, so, I did a search for pineal gland. the fluoride link came up immediately - a coincidence!


----------



## HipJan (Apr 9, 1999)

Ooops, I reread, and reconsidered, part of an earlier post I wrote: "...you might be healthier..." That bit didn't sound too nice (was presumptuous). Sorry, flux, and any others I may have accidentally offended.I was somewhat irritated, yes, but I think I wrote the post too hastily.(However, I still most certainly believe "we" can be too skeptical and that striving to be flexible, open to other ideas beyond our own, and courteous are good ways to be, not bad. Hint.) That's all from me for now.


----------



## HipJan (Apr 9, 1999)

Ooops, I reread, and reconsidered, part of an earlier post I wrote: "...you might be healthier..." That bit didn't sound too nice (was presumptuous). Sorry, flux, and any others I may have accidentally offended.I was somewhat irritated, yes, but I think I wrote the post too hastily.(However, I still most certainly believe "we" can be too skeptical and that striving to be flexible, open to other ideas beyond our own, and courteous are good ways to be, not bad. Hint.) That's all from me for now.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:That is what we have been talking about on this thread.


We are? Why? Is high fluoride a problem outside of India? Seems like the problem is the opposite: http://www.deltadentalca.org/health/fluoride.html Don't forget to brush ;-)


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:That is what we have been talking about on this thread.


We are? Why? Is high fluoride a problem outside of India? Seems like the problem is the opposite: http://www.deltadentalca.org/health/fluoride.html Don't forget to brush ;-)


----------



## HipJan (Apr 9, 1999)

Boo. Wake up and smell the coffee burning.It at least has the potential of being a problem, in this country, in the UK (where a lot of tea is drunk), etc.Yes, brush up, but watch the fluoride too!


----------



## HipJan (Apr 9, 1999)

Boo. Wake up and smell the coffee burning.It at least has the potential of being a problem, in this country, in the UK (where a lot of tea is drunk), etc.Yes, brush up, but watch the fluoride too!


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

> -----------------------------------------------"[E]xtensive research from India has revealed severe arthritic changes and crippling neurological complications even where the fluoride concentration in water naturally is as low as 1.5 ppm..."- Interesting-------------------------------------Obvious fiction. Whatï¿½s interesting? That someone would make up statements out of whole cloth?-------------------------------------------------- If this is not an attempt to trash research with a racist jibe, WHAT IS IT?This is my second request for Flux to explain it.
> 
> 
> > --------------------------------------------------I thought fluoride was the key ingredient in preventing cavities?--------------------------------------------------Isn't this something we learn as kids?------------------------------------------------- The "key ingredient" to avoiding cavities is a low sugar diet.Some of us are now grown up, and we are able to question "what we learnt as kids".quote: --------------------------------------------------much of the general research on ALL the affects of Fluoride is done in India, is that India has some soils with high Fluoride, and has long had good reason to do research on all the effects of Fluoride. --------------------------------------------------"High" fluoride? How can it have any relevance to the the effects of therapeutic levels of fluoride? ------------------------------------------------- "High Fluoride" means that they have more of this in their soils than you do in the US. From your contributions up to now, you should believe this to be a healthy thing. So, Flux, you now finally accept that F IS a poison after all, and it can be too high? The problem is that the research done in India shows so many effects at low dosages that UNICEF questioned whether F was useful at all?(2) What is your idea a "therapeutic" level of F?Public Health Authorities are usually careful NOT to use the word "Therapeutic" for Fluoridating water. If they did they would have to get FDA approval for this toxic waste. It has none. If they did, they would need to monitor "the patients" for total dosage , side effects etc.If they did they could be sued for overdosages.SOME poisons (e.g. digitalis)can have therapeutic uses, in carefully controlled doses and conditions, on individual prescription. This poison is used en masse, to curb one of the effects of a mass #### diet. It is justified by trials that do not consider TOTAL F ingestion, from all sources.It is one of the weaknesses of the scientific Method that it likes to isolate a SINGLE criteria to measure it. Unfortunately that is not how we live and there is ample research to show many of us ingest toxic F doses routinely . And it is a major poison , higher than lead.Flux I am still waiting for you to tell me HOW toxic Fluoride is? On 26 October 1998, the NPWA brought Professor Dr A.K. Susheela to meet with Ms Tessa Jowell, the present Minister for Public Health. Dr Susheela is a histocytochemist and a Doctor of Medical Science with 25 years experience in fluoride research and more than 100 published scientific papers on the adverse effects of fluoride on human health to her credit. She is a senior consultant to the Indian Government on the subject of fluoride toxicity. Dr Susheela showed Ms Jowell and three of her advisers - Dr Michael Waring, Mr Ian Cooper and Mr Jerry Read - electron-micrographs of cells - how fluoride kills erythrocytes (red blood cells) and causes devastating damage to gastric mucosa, resulting in a collection of symptoms which we westerners describe as "Irritable Bowel Syndrome". This condition, if shown to be caused by fluoride, can be completely cured in 10-15 days by eliminating fluoride from the diet and drinking pure water with no fluoride contamination. She showed how calcium levels in the body decrease as fluoride levels rise. She showed photographs of how fluoride induces pitting and cavity formation on the surface of tooth enamel and that these cavities are distinctly different from those formed as a result of dental caries. She showed how blood fluoride levels rise continuously with prolonged use of fluoridated toothpaste. She showed how, in those who ingest fluoride-contaminated water and who use fluoridated toothpaste, mouth rinses, etc., the muscles, connective tissue elements (particularly the collagen fibres) and bone tissue undergo degenerative changes.The government's advisers uttered not a word of comment, nor did they ask the Professor a single question. These are the "experts" on whom Ministers rely. Ms Jowell asked why we are not seeing these effects in our own fluoridated areas. Susheela replied: "You do not have a NHS facility for testing fluoride levels in blood and urine. If you do not look for adverse effects, how can you hope to find them?"Our, Government, like yours, wants to believe in a cheap answer to caries. They are determined not to look for ï¿½inconvenientï¿½ data in case they find it!How many of YOUR Doctors have checked your BLOOD Fluoride levels? NONE I bet. So how the heck do you know if you have received what Flux calls a ï¿½Therapeutic doseï¿½ (....whatever that is), or whether you have Fluoride-induced IBS?The only way to find out is to test it yourself. Refer to the protocol in my first post for how to do this. Let me know how you do.All this attachment to a cosy image of Fluoride! Suspend all your beliefs, and disbeliefs, just long enough to test. What is so difficult about that? You would thimk I had said IBS was cause by motherhood and apple-pie!Many Thanks Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

> -----------------------------------------------"[E]xtensive research from India has revealed severe arthritic changes and crippling neurological complications even where the fluoride concentration in water naturally is as low as 1.5 ppm..."- Interesting-------------------------------------Obvious fiction. Whatï¿½s interesting? That someone would make up statements out of whole cloth?-------------------------------------------------- If this is not an attempt to trash research with a racist jibe, WHAT IS IT?This is my second request for Flux to explain it.
> 
> 
> > --------------------------------------------------I thought fluoride was the key ingredient in preventing cavities?--------------------------------------------------Isn't this something we learn as kids?------------------------------------------------- The "key ingredient" to avoiding cavities is a low sugar diet.Some of us are now grown up, and we are able to question "what we learnt as kids".quote: --------------------------------------------------much of the general research on ALL the affects of Fluoride is done in India, is that India has some soils with high Fluoride, and has long had good reason to do research on all the effects of Fluoride. --------------------------------------------------"High" fluoride? How can it have any relevance to the the effects of therapeutic levels of fluoride? ------------------------------------------------- "High Fluoride" means that they have more of this in their soils than you do in the US. From your contributions up to now, you should believe this to be a healthy thing. So, Flux, you now finally accept that F IS a poison after all, and it can be too high? The problem is that the research done in India shows so many effects at low dosages that UNICEF questioned whether F was useful at all?(2) What is your idea a "therapeutic" level of F?Public Health Authorities are usually careful NOT to use the word "Therapeutic" for Fluoridating water. If they did they would have to get FDA approval for this toxic waste. It has none. If they did, they would need to monitor "the patients" for total dosage , side effects etc.If they did they could be sued for overdosages.SOME poisons (e.g. digitalis)can have therapeutic uses, in carefully controlled doses and conditions, on individual prescription. This poison is used en masse, to curb one of the effects of a mass #### diet. It is justified by trials that do not consider TOTAL F ingestion, from all sources.It is one of the weaknesses of the scientific Method that it likes to isolate a SINGLE criteria to measure it. Unfortunately that is not how we live and there is ample research to show many of us ingest toxic F doses routinely . And it is a major poison , higher than lead.Flux I am still waiting for you to tell me HOW toxic Fluoride is? On 26 October 1998, the NPWA brought Professor Dr A.K. Susheela to meet with Ms Tessa Jowell, the present Minister for Public Health. Dr Susheela is a histocytochemist and a Doctor of Medical Science with 25 years experience in fluoride research and more than 100 published scientific papers on the adverse effects of fluoride on human health to her credit. She is a senior consultant to the Indian Government on the subject of fluoride toxicity. Dr Susheela showed Ms Jowell and three of her advisers - Dr Michael Waring, Mr Ian Cooper and Mr Jerry Read - electron-micrographs of cells - how fluoride kills erythrocytes (red blood cells) and causes devastating damage to gastric mucosa, resulting in a collection of symptoms which we westerners describe as "Irritable Bowel Syndrome". This condition, if shown to be caused by fluoride, can be completely cured in 10-15 days by eliminating fluoride from the diet and drinking pure water with no fluoride contamination. She showed how calcium levels in the body decrease as fluoride levels rise. She showed photographs of how fluoride induces pitting and cavity formation on the surface of tooth enamel and that these cavities are distinctly different from those formed as a result of dental caries. She showed how blood fluoride levels rise continuously with prolonged use of fluoridated toothpaste. She showed how, in those who ingest fluoride-contaminated water and who use fluoridated toothpaste, mouth rinses, etc., the muscles, connective tissue elements (particularly the collagen fibres) and bone tissue undergo degenerative changes.The government's advisers uttered not a word of comment, nor did they ask the Professor a single question. These are the "experts" on whom Ministers rely. Ms Jowell asked why we are not seeing these effects in our own fluoridated areas. Susheela replied: "You do not have a NHS facility for testing fluoride levels in blood and urine. If you do not look for adverse effects, how can you hope to find them?"Our, Government, like yours, wants to believe in a cheap answer to caries. They are determined not to look for ï¿½inconvenientï¿½ data in case they find it!How many of YOUR Doctors have checked your BLOOD Fluoride levels? NONE I bet. So how the heck do you know if you have received what Flux calls a ï¿½Therapeutic doseï¿½ (....whatever that is), or whether you have Fluoride-induced IBS?The only way to find out is to test it yourself. Refer to the protocol in my first post for how to do this. Let me know how you do.All this attachment to a cosy image of Fluoride! Suspend all your beliefs, and disbeliefs, just long enough to test. What is so difficult about that? You would thimk I had said IBS was cause by motherhood and apple-pie!Many Thanks Len


----------



## Gret (Sep 23, 2003)

If a person has IBS, then stress may trigger it. If you don't have IBS, then "stress" takes on a different profile.I think Len's story is meant to help people, not cause a debate. And why would it be so hard to just give up flouride and see if it helps? Our water has no flouride. We had it checked to see if our kids should take flouride supplements (which they never take!). So I'll ditch the flouride toothpaste too and see how it goes. What the heck.Thanks for sharing your knowledge and research, Len.


----------



## Gret (Sep 23, 2003)

If a person has IBS, then stress may trigger it. If you don't have IBS, then "stress" takes on a different profile.I think Len's story is meant to help people, not cause a debate. And why would it be so hard to just give up flouride and see if it helps? Our water has no flouride. We had it checked to see if our kids should take flouride supplements (which they never take!). So I'll ditch the flouride toothpaste too and see how it goes. What the heck.Thanks for sharing your knowledge and research, Len.


----------



## Persistance (Jul 11, 1999)

I've used flouride toothpaste all along. My IBS has gotten [/i]better[/i] as time has gone on, not worse. That's all I can say.


----------



## Persistance (Jul 11, 1999)

I've used flouride toothpaste all along. My IBS has gotten [/i]better[/i] as time has gone on, not worse. That's all I can say.


----------



## Linda mac (Feb 24, 2002)

Although I don't think fluoride has anything to do with my IBS, which is largely in remission at the moment (And as I've said before, I drink strong black tea every day, and use fluoride toothpaste),I don't see any harm in _ELIMINATING_ something from your lifestyle to see if your IBS improves. It may very well be a trigger for some people.I don't think Len is trying to sell anything here...he's just sharing his experience.Luilu


----------



## Linda mac (Feb 24, 2002)

Although I don't think fluoride has anything to do with my IBS, which is largely in remission at the moment (And as I've said before, I drink strong black tea every day, and use fluoride toothpaste),I don't see any harm in _ELIMINATING_ something from your lifestyle to see if your IBS improves. It may very well be a trigger for some people.I don't think Len is trying to sell anything here...he's just sharing his experience.Luilu


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Some of us are now grown up, and we are able to question "what we learnt as kids"


Really?


> quote:you now finally accept that F IS a poison after all, and it can be too high?


Anything in an abnormal amount can be poisonous. That's common sense.


> quote: Authorities are usually careful NOT to use the word "Therapeutic" for Fluoridating water. If they did they would have to get FDA approval for this toxic


Nonsense.*Fluoridating water and using fluoridated toothpaste are







and smart.*


> quote: I'll ditch the flouride toothpaste too





> quote:I don't see any harm in ELIMINATING something


These are not.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Some of us are now grown up, and we are able to question "what we learnt as kids"


Really?


> quote:you now finally accept that F IS a poison after all, and it can be too high?


Anything in an abnormal amount can be poisonous. That's common sense.


> quote: Authorities are usually careful NOT to use the word "Therapeutic" for Fluoridating water. If they did they would have to get FDA approval for this toxic


Nonsense.*Fluoridating water and using fluoridated toothpaste are







and smart.*


> quote: I'll ditch the flouride toothpaste too





> quote:I don't see any harm in ELIMINATING something


These are not.


----------



## Linda mac (Feb 24, 2002)

Flux, I beg your pardon? I think my opinion is every bit as valid as yours, and your response to my post was very rude and entirely unnecessary.Luilu


----------



## Linda mac (Feb 24, 2002)

Flux, I beg your pardon? I think my opinion is every bit as valid as yours, and your response to my post was very rude and entirely unnecessary.Luilu


----------



## Guest (Jan 2, 2004)

some questions:what are safe levels of flouride? how much flouride do tea leaves have and why are they so high? is this black tea or green tea or both?if you live in a major city is the water guaranteed to be flouridated? i'm guessing yes.thanks.


----------



## Guest (Jan 2, 2004)

some questions:what are safe levels of flouride? how much flouride do tea leaves have and why are they so high? is this black tea or green tea or both?if you live in a major city is the water guaranteed to be flouridated? i'm guessing yes.thanks.


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Flux, Qoute.Really?--------------------------------------------------Not an answer. Only a sneer?If youï¿½ve never questioned anything you were taught as a kid, I think your going to be upset about Santa one day.Qoute------------------------------------------------Anything in an abnormal amount can be poisonous. That's common sense.--------------------------------------------------Itï¿½s not common sense and itï¿½s not true. Unfluoridated water for example.This is the 6th or 7th time I have asked you to tell us the toxicity of Fluoride.Is it, or is it not, more toxic than lead? See American ï¿½Clinical Toxicology of Commercial Productsï¿½ (5th. Edition)You can take all the cheap, snide, empty pot-shots you want but you cannot answer the questionQoute--------------------------------------------------43 papers actually, and they seem to about "high" fluoride-------------------------------------------------- Wrong again!. You probably got this incomplete list from Pubmed. If you follow these two link youï¿½ll get fuller lists. http://education.vsnl.com/fluorosis/publication.html http://education.vsnl.com/fluorosis/animal.html Thatï¿½s 67 on humans and 45 on animals, Makes more than 100 to me!For the third time I am asking you to explain ï¿½the cloth commentï¿½ of yours. I can only think of a racist interpretation, but surely youï¿½ve had time to come up with something else?


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Flux, Qoute.Really?--------------------------------------------------Not an answer. Only a sneer?If youï¿½ve never questioned anything you were taught as a kid, I think your going to be upset about Santa one day.Qoute------------------------------------------------Anything in an abnormal amount can be poisonous. That's common sense.--------------------------------------------------Itï¿½s not common sense and itï¿½s not true. Unfluoridated water for example.This is the 6th or 7th time I have asked you to tell us the toxicity of Fluoride.Is it, or is it not, more toxic than lead? See American ï¿½Clinical Toxicology of Commercial Productsï¿½ (5th. Edition)You can take all the cheap, snide, empty pot-shots you want but you cannot answer the questionQoute--------------------------------------------------43 papers actually, and they seem to about "high" fluoride-------------------------------------------------- Wrong again!. You probably got this incomplete list from Pubmed. If you follow these two link youï¿½ll get fuller lists. http://education.vsnl.com/fluorosis/publication.html http://education.vsnl.com/fluorosis/animal.html Thatï¿½s 67 on humans and 45 on animals, Makes more than 100 to me!For the third time I am asking you to explain ï¿½the cloth commentï¿½ of yours. I can only think of a racist interpretation, but surely youï¿½ve had time to come up with something else?


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

To joanofarc,Fluoride is MORE toxic than lead. See ref in last post.(It is slightly less than Arsenic)The target for lead in water is ZERO. Having said that we all live with some lead in us.These poisons are so noxious that personally I would like to get the Fluoride I have ingested out.Your asking, what is a safe dose of Lead and Arsenic?Black and green tea are both extremely high in Fluoride but highly variable. Personally I think one day we will see De -Fluoridated teas in the Supermarkets!You can find a detailed Article here http://www.bruha.com/fluoride In UK only 10% is Fluoridated. in US you'll have to enquire of the Water Co.Reverse-Osmosis filters will remove it, but they are very expensive. Activated Alumina filters will remove it but they will add some undesirable Aluminium.Jug Filters do NOT usually remove Fluoride.If you find one that does , please tell me. See the exclusion protocol in my original post on this topic.Many Thanks LenPlease let me know how you do?


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

To joanofarc,Fluoride is MORE toxic than lead. See ref in last post.(It is slightly less than Arsenic)The target for lead in water is ZERO. Having said that we all live with some lead in us.These poisons are so noxious that personally I would like to get the Fluoride I have ingested out.Your asking, what is a safe dose of Lead and Arsenic?Black and green tea are both extremely high in Fluoride but highly variable. Personally I think one day we will see De -Fluoridated teas in the Supermarkets!You can find a detailed Article here http://www.bruha.com/fluoride In UK only 10% is Fluoridated. in US you'll have to enquire of the Water Co.Reverse-Osmosis filters will remove it, but they are very expensive. Activated Alumina filters will remove it but they will add some undesirable Aluminium.Jug Filters do NOT usually remove Fluoride.If you find one that does , please tell me. See the exclusion protocol in my original post on this topic.Many Thanks LenPlease let me know how you do?


----------



## RitaLucy (May 3, 2000)

Interesting Post....I have a question getting back to the tea...are we talking about caffeinated or decaffeinated tea here?Because I know a real trigger for me is caffeine whether it be in tea, coffee or other beverages or foods. There is nothing that has affected my ibs and hypoglycemia worse than caffeine... This is a FACT for me..


----------



## RitaLucy (May 3, 2000)

Interesting Post....I have a question getting back to the tea...are we talking about caffeinated or decaffeinated tea here?Because I know a real trigger for me is caffeine whether it be in tea, coffee or other beverages or foods. There is nothing that has affected my ibs and hypoglycemia worse than caffeine... This is a FACT for me..


----------



## Guest (Jan 2, 2004)

maybe i'm being a little gullible, but this article: http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/shamesfluoride.htm made me wonder if this is why many cats have thyroid problems. according to my vet its really really common for them to have thyroid problems. they drink our water too and they are much smaller. ??????!!


----------



## Guest (Jan 2, 2004)

maybe i'm being a little gullible, but this article: http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/shamesfluoride.htm made me wonder if this is why many cats have thyroid problems. according to my vet its really really common for them to have thyroid problems. they drink our water too and they are much smaller. ??????!!


----------



## Guest (Jan 2, 2004)

I drink alot of decaf iced tea..I love it...causes not problems at all...


----------



## Guest (Jan 2, 2004)

I drink alot of decaf iced tea..I love it...causes not problems at all...


----------



## Tummy Trouble TB (Nov 10, 2001)

I don't know about flouride, but stress, anxiety or whatever you want to call it definitely affects my bowels. I don't know if it's a "what came first - the chicken or the egg" kind of deal, but whenever I have any kind of emotional upset, like a panic attack, my bowels are the first to respond. Same with just plain old nervousness. I get terrible cramping, bloating, and the urge to go, even if I just went.So, maybe I don't even have IBS. I guess it's possible that since I've been high-strung my entire life, my gut just reacts to it.


----------



## Tummy Trouble TB (Nov 10, 2001)

I don't know about flouride, but stress, anxiety or whatever you want to call it definitely affects my bowels. I don't know if it's a "what came first - the chicken or the egg" kind of deal, but whenever I have any kind of emotional upset, like a panic attack, my bowels are the first to respond. Same with just plain old nervousness. I get terrible cramping, bloating, and the urge to go, even if I just went.So, maybe I don't even have IBS. I guess it's possible that since I've been high-strung my entire life, my gut just reacts to it.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Itï¿½s not common sense and itï¿½s not true. Unfluoridated water for example


It is common sense and it is true. *All water is poisonous if consumed in large enough volumes*


> quote:Wrong again!. You probably got this incomplete list from Pubmed.


That's the listing I trust.


> quote: I am asking you to explain ï¿½the cloth commentï¿½ of yours


An American expression of fabrication. We make things out of cloth (e.g. clothes). So we can make *up* things too. Such as...


> quote:Fluoride is MORE toxic than lead.


*FLUORIDE IS A SAFE AND HEALTHY WAY TO PREVENT TOOTH DECAY*.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Itï¿½s not common sense and itï¿½s not true. Unfluoridated water for example


It is common sense and it is true. *All water is poisonous if consumed in large enough volumes*


> quote:Wrong again!. You probably got this incomplete list from Pubmed.


That's the listing I trust.


> quote: I am asking you to explain ï¿½the cloth commentï¿½ of yours


An American expression of fabrication. We make things out of cloth (e.g. clothes). So we can make *up* things too. Such as...


> quote:Fluoride is MORE toxic than lead.


*FLUORIDE IS A SAFE AND HEALTHY WAY TO PREVENT TOOTH DECAY*.


----------



## Linda mac (Feb 24, 2002)

To the best of my knowledge, there is no actual caffeine in tea. There is a caffeine-like substance call Theobromide (sp?). It has the rejuvenating effects of caffeine without the jitters.I drink "high-test" tea. Strong and Black, the way all Brits like it. On hot summer days I drink the same brew but iced, with added lemon.TT, what you described is typical of how an IBS attack starts for me when I get stressed out. I have always had panic associated with my IBS, even as a young child...the first thing I ever did when I visited a person's home was to enquire where the bathroom was located!LuiluP.S. All teas, green and black are full of anti-oxidants...it's a good thing!


----------



## Linda mac (Feb 24, 2002)

To the best of my knowledge, there is no actual caffeine in tea. There is a caffeine-like substance call Theobromide (sp?). It has the rejuvenating effects of caffeine without the jitters.I drink "high-test" tea. Strong and Black, the way all Brits like it. On hot summer days I drink the same brew but iced, with added lemon.TT, what you described is typical of how an IBS attack starts for me when I get stressed out. I have always had panic associated with my IBS, even as a young child...the first thing I ever did when I visited a person's home was to enquire where the bathroom was located!LuiluP.S. All teas, green and black are full of anti-oxidants...it's a good thing!


----------



## GailSusan (Dec 23, 2000)

This is an interesting topic from several perspectives. First, of all, there is the issue of whether Len's IBS symptoms could have been triggered by fluoride or go away as quickly as he said. I found some support for Len's experience in CHEMICAL & ENGINEERING NEWS, August 1, 1988, "Special Report: Fluoridation of Water, Questions about health risks and benefits remain after more than 40 years": _Just as a few people react idiosyncratically to almost anything, some people may have adverse reactions to fluoride whether contained in pills or water. Some individuals seem to be hypersensitive to fluoride pills or drops containing 1 mg or less as well as to fluoride toothpaste. The 1983 edition of the "Physicians Desk Reference" states: "In hypersensitive individuals, fluorides occasionally cause skin eruptions, such as atopic dermatitis, eczema, or urticaria. Gastric distress, headache, and weakness have also been reported. These hypersensitivity reactions usually disappear promptly after discontinuation of the fluoride." (This information was omitted from later editions of the reference.)_ Another interesting aspect is that the water fluoridation product used in public water supplies is not calcium fluoride (which is naturally found in some waters), but rather synthetic, non-toxicologically tested, non-FDA approved, non-pharmaceutical grade sodium fluorosilicate, which carries a "toxic" label complete with skull and crossbones, or hydrofluorosilicic acid, a classified hazardous waste, which is a bproduct of the phosphate fertilizer production process. This is not stuff I would want to put in my body.Also, fluoride works topically, there is no benefit to ingesting it. When you ingest it via public drinking water, most of it gets absorbed through the GI tract. Who knows what the impact is of these nasty chemicals on your GI tract? I personally avoid fluoride, except for my toothpaste, and the kind of fluoride used in toothpaste is NOT an industrial waste chemical, like the kind in the public water supply. The effects of drinking fluoride via the public water supply are still in question 50 years later. We don't know the full effects of this kind of fluoride on our bodies. There are more questions than answers, if you ask me.Then, of course, there are the ethical issues of whether the government has the right to add any chemical to our water supply even if it is "for the common good." There are many more countries, states, cities and towns that have stopped adding fluoride to their water supplies than there are those adding it. I don't think it's an open and shut case that the fluoride we drink in the public water supply is safe.


----------



## GailSusan (Dec 23, 2000)

This is an interesting topic from several perspectives. First, of all, there is the issue of whether Len's IBS symptoms could have been triggered by fluoride or go away as quickly as he said. I found some support for Len's experience in CHEMICAL & ENGINEERING NEWS, August 1, 1988, "Special Report: Fluoridation of Water, Questions about health risks and benefits remain after more than 40 years": _Just as a few people react idiosyncratically to almost anything, some people may have adverse reactions to fluoride whether contained in pills or water. Some individuals seem to be hypersensitive to fluoride pills or drops containing 1 mg or less as well as to fluoride toothpaste. The 1983 edition of the "Physicians Desk Reference" states: "In hypersensitive individuals, fluorides occasionally cause skin eruptions, such as atopic dermatitis, eczema, or urticaria. Gastric distress, headache, and weakness have also been reported. These hypersensitivity reactions usually disappear promptly after discontinuation of the fluoride." (This information was omitted from later editions of the reference.)_ Another interesting aspect is that the water fluoridation product used in public water supplies is not calcium fluoride (which is naturally found in some waters), but rather synthetic, non-toxicologically tested, non-FDA approved, non-pharmaceutical grade sodium fluorosilicate, which carries a "toxic" label complete with skull and crossbones, or hydrofluorosilicic acid, a classified hazardous waste, which is a bproduct of the phosphate fertilizer production process. This is not stuff I would want to put in my body.Also, fluoride works topically, there is no benefit to ingesting it. When you ingest it via public drinking water, most of it gets absorbed through the GI tract. Who knows what the impact is of these nasty chemicals on your GI tract? I personally avoid fluoride, except for my toothpaste, and the kind of fluoride used in toothpaste is NOT an industrial waste chemical, like the kind in the public water supply. The effects of drinking fluoride via the public water supply are still in question 50 years later. We don't know the full effects of this kind of fluoride on our bodies. There are more questions than answers, if you ask me.Then, of course, there are the ethical issues of whether the government has the right to add any chemical to our water supply even if it is "for the common good." There are many more countries, states, cities and towns that have stopped adding fluoride to their water supplies than there are those adding it. I don't think it's an open and shut case that the fluoride we drink in the public water supply is safe.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:First, of all, there is the issue of whether Len's IBS symptoms


I still think the story was fabricated out of whole cloth.


> quote:I don't think it's an open and shut case that the fluoride we drink in the public water supply is safe.


It was never even open


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:First, of all, there is the issue of whether Len's IBS symptoms


I still think the story was fabricated out of whole cloth.


> quote:I don't think it's an open and shut case that the fluoride we drink in the public water supply is safe.


It was never even open


----------



## Guest (Jan 2, 2004)

my stomach hurts


----------



## Guest (Jan 2, 2004)

my stomach hurts


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Quote:"It is common sense and it is true. All water is poisonous if consumed in large enough volumes"Not true. (1)You would die of expoding NOT poisoning.(2) You said "abnormal quantities" originally.An "abnormal quantity" of water is NOT poisonous.(3) Point of Linguistic analysis:The statement as you NOW construct it is uttererly meaningless. "Enough" is used to create a mere tautology"large enough volumes " here actually refers to "the volume that would be poisonous"The statement actually says no more than "Allwater is poisonous if consumed in (the volume that would be poisonous)"This is an extremely common cheat, more commonly associated with statementes like "too much" of something is a bad thing.A good higher Education would sort this out.


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Quote:"It is common sense and it is true. All water is poisonous if consumed in large enough volumes"Not true. (1)You would die of expoding NOT poisoning.(2) You said "abnormal quantities" originally.An "abnormal quantity" of water is NOT poisonous.(3) Point of Linguistic analysis:The statement as you NOW construct it is uttererly meaningless. "Enough" is used to create a mere tautology"large enough volumes " here actually refers to "the volume that would be poisonous"The statement actually says no more than "Allwater is poisonous if consumed in (the volume that would be poisonous)"This is an extremely common cheat, more commonly associated with statementes like "too much" of something is a bad thing.A good higher Education would sort this out.


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Qoute ï¿½Anything in an abnormal amount can be poisonous. That's common sense.--------------------------------------------------COMMON SENSEï¿½ A useful strategy for everyday functioning without having to delve into every issue.BUT ï¿½Common senseï¿½ vis-ï¿½-vis ScienceWhat is that?It is merely ï¿½appealing to the crowdï¿½ That wonï¿½t serve us in the pursuit of knowledge?It is the last refuge of a man that has no evidence to offer for his beliefs.It is the alternative to the pursuit of knowledge.It is the product of the childish yearning for the safe, fundamentalist certainties of home-spun, folksy wisdom?It is the mental habits that obstruct the progress of Science.It is the rallying cry of the anti-intellectuals. It is the motto for ï¿½Lynch a thinker dayï¿½. Anthem of the Flat-Earthers.It is the escape to ignorant bliss.It is whistling in the dark?But is it ï¿½Common Senseï¿½ to put something in drinking water that is between Arsenic and Lead in toxicity?Is it ï¿½Common Senseï¿½ to believe that something so toxic can radically alter your teeth and bones without other effects?Is it ï¿½Common Senseï¿½ to test what Iï¿½m saying for yourself?Or is it ï¿½Common Senseï¿½ to say Flux doesnï¿½t believe it, so I wonï¿½t?Is Fluxï¿½s reaction to my request ï¿½Common Senseï¿½?I have told you of the cure of myself and others. It has a Scientific basis (contended, as most science is). Two professors of IBS units in UK would be interested to know more about this. I am asking you to help (and help yourselves) by a simple, harmless trial. I am not selling anything. I use my real name and I am willing to post my address if requested. We need hundreds of IBS sufferers to try this and report back , just to get an idea of whether this is THE major cause of IBS, or the cause of minor subset within IBS.I really am at a loss to understand Fluxï¿½s obstructiveness.Why doesnï¿½t he want this simple, harmless experiment done?He has his belief but isnï¿½t he curious to find out for certain?If his belief is correct he will have the reward of smug satisfaction.If I am correct many, many thousands will eventually be helped and you will play your part. Why wouldnï¿½t Flux want that?Please think constructively, and openly for yourselvesLen


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Qoute ï¿½Anything in an abnormal amount can be poisonous. That's common sense.--------------------------------------------------COMMON SENSEï¿½ A useful strategy for everyday functioning without having to delve into every issue.BUT ï¿½Common senseï¿½ vis-ï¿½-vis ScienceWhat is that?It is merely ï¿½appealing to the crowdï¿½ That wonï¿½t serve us in the pursuit of knowledge?It is the last refuge of a man that has no evidence to offer for his beliefs.It is the alternative to the pursuit of knowledge.It is the product of the childish yearning for the safe, fundamentalist certainties of home-spun, folksy wisdom?It is the mental habits that obstruct the progress of Science.It is the rallying cry of the anti-intellectuals. It is the motto for ï¿½Lynch a thinker dayï¿½. Anthem of the Flat-Earthers.It is the escape to ignorant bliss.It is whistling in the dark?But is it ï¿½Common Senseï¿½ to put something in drinking water that is between Arsenic and Lead in toxicity?Is it ï¿½Common Senseï¿½ to believe that something so toxic can radically alter your teeth and bones without other effects?Is it ï¿½Common Senseï¿½ to test what Iï¿½m saying for yourself?Or is it ï¿½Common Senseï¿½ to say Flux doesnï¿½t believe it, so I wonï¿½t?Is Fluxï¿½s reaction to my request ï¿½Common Senseï¿½?I have told you of the cure of myself and others. It has a Scientific basis (contended, as most science is). Two professors of IBS units in UK would be interested to know more about this. I am asking you to help (and help yourselves) by a simple, harmless trial. I am not selling anything. I use my real name and I am willing to post my address if requested. We need hundreds of IBS sufferers to try this and report back , just to get an idea of whether this is THE major cause of IBS, or the cause of minor subset within IBS.I really am at a loss to understand Fluxï¿½s obstructiveness.Why doesnï¿½t he want this simple, harmless experiment done?He has his belief but isnï¿½t he curious to find out for certain?If his belief is correct he will have the reward of smug satisfaction.If I am correct many, many thousands will eventually be helped and you will play your part. Why wouldnï¿½t Flux want that?Please think constructively, and openly for yourselvesLen


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Qoute;I don't think it's an open and shut case that the fluoride we drink in the public water supply is safe.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------It was never even open.Sorry Flux.You can't tell people not to think.Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Qoute;I don't think it's an open and shut case that the fluoride we drink in the public water supply is safe.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------It was never even open.Sorry Flux.You can't tell people not to think.Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

To RitaLucy,Caffeine, like stress can exacerbate or trigger IBS episodes.The same was(is) true of Stomach Ulcers.But the fundamental cause of IBS (All, most, some is not yet known) is Fluoride.Just as the cause of most ulcers (Helicobecterv Pylori was ridiculed) so it is now with the Fluoride hypothesis.Thanks Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

To RitaLucy,Caffeine, like stress can exacerbate or trigger IBS episodes.The same was(is) true of Stomach Ulcers.But the fundamental cause of IBS (All, most, some is not yet known) is Fluoride.Just as the cause of most ulcers (Helicobecterv Pylori was ridiculed) so it is now with the Fluoride hypothesis.Thanks Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

quote:---------------------------------------------FLUORIDE IS A SAFE AND HEALTHY WAY TO PREVENT TOOTH DECAY.---------------------------------------------Even if this statement were true (and its not)what does it say about Fluoride and IBS? NOTHING.Flux,For the 4th time please explain "the (racist?) cloth comment".For the 8th time please tell us the toxicity of Fluoride?.More cheap shots I see, but still a total refusal to answer questions.You do not disclose your name, nor your profession, but you like to "hint" at an aura of pseudo-medicality in your signature. Personally I suspect you are a frustrated, paint-ball sniper.You like to lay in hiding, avoiding an open exchange, but taking easy, trite shots that can only smear.Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

quote:---------------------------------------------FLUORIDE IS A SAFE AND HEALTHY WAY TO PREVENT TOOTH DECAY.---------------------------------------------Even if this statement were true (and its not)what does it say about Fluoride and IBS? NOTHING.Flux,For the 4th time please explain "the (racist?) cloth comment".For the 8th time please tell us the toxicity of Fluoride?.More cheap shots I see, but still a total refusal to answer questions.You do not disclose your name, nor your profession, but you like to "hint" at an aura of pseudo-medicality in your signature. Personally I suspect you are a frustrated, paint-ball sniper.You like to lay in hiding, avoiding an open exchange, but taking easy, trite shots that can only smear.Len


----------



## GailSusan (Dec 23, 2000)

> quote: But the fundamental cause of IBS (All, most, some is not yet known) is Fluoride.


Len, That's quite a statement!I've had very little exposure to fluoride over the course of my life due to well water, bottled water, and not using a toothpaste with fluoride until I was in my 20's. Frankly, my IBS symptoms were in full bloom by age 16, but got worse due to a parasitic infection and even worse a few years later with food poisoning. As I said before, I'm not dismissing your experience with fluoride and perhaps there are a few others on here who might find a connection between fluoride and their IBS, but I don't think it's the major cause of IBS for most people. So it sounds like you are recruiting subjects for a study on this? Is that correct? Are you part of an organized group? Can you tell us more about your organization?


----------



## GailSusan (Dec 23, 2000)

> quote: But the fundamental cause of IBS (All, most, some is not yet known) is Fluoride.


Len, That's quite a statement!I've had very little exposure to fluoride over the course of my life due to well water, bottled water, and not using a toothpaste with fluoride until I was in my 20's. Frankly, my IBS symptoms were in full bloom by age 16, but got worse due to a parasitic infection and even worse a few years later with food poisoning. As I said before, I'm not dismissing your experience with fluoride and perhaps there are a few others on here who might find a connection between fluoride and their IBS, but I don't think it's the major cause of IBS for most people. So it sounds like you are recruiting subjects for a study on this? Is that correct? Are you part of an organized group? Can you tell us more about your organization?


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

GailSusan,Thank you for your interest. Fluoride may play no part in your IBS. (Is IBS I or 20 diseases? Did I have the same disease as you, or just the same sympyoms/diagnosis?).But before you exclude the possibility entirely. (1) Did you drink tea?2)The wellwater. What was it's Fluoride content. It is perfectly possible for it to have been high through either geology of pollution. (3)Did you live in the fallout fan of Smelting of Fertiliser-production facilities?(4) Did your family use non-stick cookware?(5) Did you eat a lot of bone products (Stocks/marrow/gelatine)?(6) Did you/do you take Kelp?Good Luck Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

GailSusan,Thank you for your interest. Fluoride may play no part in your IBS. (Is IBS I or 20 diseases? Did I have the same disease as you, or just the same sympyoms/diagnosis?).But before you exclude the possibility entirely. (1) Did you drink tea?2)The wellwater. What was it's Fluoride content. It is perfectly possible for it to have been high through either geology of pollution. (3)Did you live in the fallout fan of Smelting of Fertiliser-production facilities?(4) Did your family use non-stick cookware?(5) Did you eat a lot of bone products (Stocks/marrow/gelatine)?(6) Did you/do you take Kelp?Good Luck Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

GailSusan,Sorry I forgot to answer you in full.I am not part of any "Organisation"I have found the NPWA in UK and the PFPC in US informative for understanding the startling events that occurred in my case.I am in contact with two Heads of IBS units. To get funding for more research on this issue more evidence is required. This is why I turned to this site to "float" this idea and see how big a phenomenom this is. I will pass on any "results".I must say that, although I expected a certain ammount of healthy scepticism, I did not expect the kind of antagonism that has come from Flux.thanks Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

GailSusan,Sorry I forgot to answer you in full.I am not part of any "Organisation"I have found the NPWA in UK and the PFPC in US informative for understanding the startling events that occurred in my case.I am in contact with two Heads of IBS units. To get funding for more research on this issue more evidence is required. This is why I turned to this site to "float" this idea and see how big a phenomenom this is. I will pass on any "results".I must say that, although I expected a certain ammount of healthy scepticism, I did not expect the kind of antagonism that has come from Flux.thanks Len


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Not true. (1)You would die of expoding NOT poisoning.(2) You said "abnormal quantities" originally.An "abnormal quantity" of water is NOT poisonous.


*False. *You would get water intoxication. http://www.fruit-eze.com/education/laxativ...rhydration.html


> quote:more commonly associated with statementes like "too much" of something is a bad thing


Exactly. This is common sense, by the way.


> quote:You can't tell people not to think


The lack of thinking seems to be the problem.


> quote:Even if this statement were true (and its not)what does it say about Fluoride and IBS?


*Fluoride has NOTHING to do with IBS*


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Not true. (1)You would die of expoding NOT poisoning.(2) You said "abnormal quantities" originally.An "abnormal quantity" of water is NOT poisonous.


*False. *You would get water intoxication. http://www.fruit-eze.com/education/laxativ...rhydration.html


> quote:more commonly associated with statementes like "too much" of something is a bad thing


Exactly. This is common sense, by the way.


> quote:You can't tell people not to think


The lack of thinking seems to be the problem.


> quote:Even if this statement were true (and its not)what does it say about Fluoride and IBS?


*Fluoride has NOTHING to do with IBS*


----------



## GailSusan (Dec 23, 2000)

Len,


> quote: (1) Did you drink tea? 2)The wellwater. What was it's Fluoride content. It is perfectly possible for it to have been high through either geology of pollution. (3)Did you live in the fallout fan of Smelting of Fertiliser-production facilities?(4) Did your family use non-stick cookware?(5) Did you eat a lot of bone products (Stocks/marrow/gelatine)?(6) Did you/do you take Kelp?


No to all the above. I don't know about the well water, but I haven't had any for 30 years. I drink bottled water.Flux isn't open-minded. He only trusts current mainstream medical sources. I wouldn't spend much time trying to convince him of your ideas. It's a waste of time.You are probably right that IBS symptoms might have multiple causes: food poisoning, parasitic infection, GI viruses, etc. Who knows what really causes these constellation of symptoms. Personally, my interest lies less in how fluoride might impact IBS and more in how it might affect all aspects of our health. I think fluoride is an interesting topic and worthy of debate.Good luck with your research!


----------



## GailSusan (Dec 23, 2000)

Len,


> quote: (1) Did you drink tea? 2)The wellwater. What was it's Fluoride content. It is perfectly possible for it to have been high through either geology of pollution. (3)Did you live in the fallout fan of Smelting of Fertiliser-production facilities?(4) Did your family use non-stick cookware?(5) Did you eat a lot of bone products (Stocks/marrow/gelatine)?(6) Did you/do you take Kelp?


No to all the above. I don't know about the well water, but I haven't had any for 30 years. I drink bottled water.Flux isn't open-minded. He only trusts current mainstream medical sources. I wouldn't spend much time trying to convince him of your ideas. It's a waste of time.You are probably right that IBS symptoms might have multiple causes: food poisoning, parasitic infection, GI viruses, etc. Who knows what really causes these constellation of symptoms. Personally, my interest lies less in how fluoride might impact IBS and more in how it might affect all aspects of our health. I think fluoride is an interesting topic and worthy of debate.Good luck with your research!


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Qoute:more commonly associated with statements like "too much" of something is a bad thing. Exactly. This is common sense, by the way.------------------------------------------------If I say (too much) salt is (a bad thing). This is a tautology. It canï¿½t be used to prove or justify anything.Why? Because (too much) only means (a quantity that is bad).The statement means. A bad thing is a bad thing. Itï¿½s hot air intended to sound like your saying something.Got it? It's only "common sense" when people exchange such tautalogical platitudes when bonding.In the pursuit of knowledge, or debate it is a cheat.Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Qoute:more commonly associated with statements like "too much" of something is a bad thing. Exactly. This is common sense, by the way.------------------------------------------------If I say (too much) salt is (a bad thing). This is a tautology. It canï¿½t be used to prove or justify anything.Why? Because (too much) only means (a quantity that is bad).The statement means. A bad thing is a bad thing. Itï¿½s hot air intended to sound like your saying something.Got it? It's only "common sense" when people exchange such tautalogical platitudes when bonding.In the pursuit of knowledge, or debate it is a cheat.Len


----------



## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Post Infectious Irritable Bowel Syndrome http://www.med.unc.edu/medicine/fgidc/post_infectious.htm INFLAMMATION AND MOTILITY Increased rectal mucosal expression of interleukin 1ï¿½ in recently acquired post-infectious irritable bowel syndrome http://gut.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/52/4/523 "In a recent study examining IBS patients over a several year period, up to 90% of the fluctuations in symptoms could be predicted by chronic stressors during the several preceding months. Another recent study examined patients who developed an acute GI infection (often after traveling in a foreign country). Most of the subjects recovered over a period of a few weeks with treatment but a significant percentage seemed to develop chronic symptoms similar to IBS. Level of stress during the three months prior to the infection was a strong predictor of who did and did not develop these chronic symptoms. Thus while stress is not the sole cause of IBS some stress clearly play a significant role in generating and prolonging symptoms in susceptible individuals, especially those with some GI symptoms. " http://ibs.med.ucla.edu/Articles/PatientAr...l99StressGI.htm


----------



## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Post Infectious Irritable Bowel Syndrome http://www.med.unc.edu/medicine/fgidc/post_infectious.htm INFLAMMATION AND MOTILITY Increased rectal mucosal expression of interleukin 1ï¿½ in recently acquired post-infectious irritable bowel syndrome http://gut.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/52/4/523 "In a recent study examining IBS patients over a several year period, up to 90% of the fluctuations in symptoms could be predicted by chronic stressors during the several preceding months. Another recent study examined patients who developed an acute GI infection (often after traveling in a foreign country). Most of the subjects recovered over a period of a few weeks with treatment but a significant percentage seemed to develop chronic symptoms similar to IBS. Level of stress during the three months prior to the infection was a strong predictor of who did and did not develop these chronic symptoms. Thus while stress is not the sole cause of IBS some stress clearly play a significant role in generating and prolonging symptoms in susceptible individuals, especially those with some GI symptoms. " http://ibs.med.ucla.edu/Articles/PatientAr...l99StressGI.htm


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Qoute:Fluoride has NOTHING to do with IBS----------------------------------------------Prove that.


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Qoute:Fluoride has NOTHING to do with IBS----------------------------------------------Prove that.


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Original quote:"Anything in an abnormal amount can be poisonous. That's common sense".-----------------------------------------------What PRECISELY does "abnormal ammount" mean here?IF it means ("a poisonous ammount") the statement is meaningless tautology. i.e. "A (poisonous ammount) can be poisonous".But, If it means ("a less than poisonness ammount") it is, by definition WRONG.i.e. "A (less than poisoness ammount) can be poisoness".I can see that, as the sniper, have been getting away with logical murder on this forum.All this "common sense" fog you put up is to evade the REAL SUBSTANTIVE QUESTION.What effects may occur at what total ingested doses?I'm beginning to notice you avoid real answers to real questions.So Flux,For the 5th time, please explain "the (racist?) cloth comment".For the 9th time, please tell us the toxicity of Fluoride?.Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Original quote:"Anything in an abnormal amount can be poisonous. That's common sense".-----------------------------------------------What PRECISELY does "abnormal ammount" mean here?IF it means ("a poisonous ammount") the statement is meaningless tautology. i.e. "A (poisonous ammount) can be poisonous".But, If it means ("a less than poisonness ammount") it is, by definition WRONG.i.e. "A (less than poisoness ammount) can be poisoness".I can see that, as the sniper, have been getting away with logical murder on this forum.All this "common sense" fog you put up is to evade the REAL SUBSTANTIVE QUESTION.What effects may occur at what total ingested doses?I'm beginning to notice you avoid real answers to real questions.So Flux,For the 5th time, please explain "the (racist?) cloth comment".For the 9th time, please tell us the toxicity of Fluoride?.Len


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

lenharley,incredible job you are doing here. i believe that you are providing extremely relevant information. our gov't has been tricked into dumping this toxic waste into our water supply.flux is 100%, pure, unadulterated (i won't say it).anyway, if he denies all the evidence that you have just presented then it just further goes to show how sick he is. i am going to be even more careful about the water i drink. i have been using bottled water for at least 2 years now but sometimes i cook with tap water. i am getting rid of all commercial toothpaste in favor of natural.i like gailsusan's paper on how some of us have these idiosyncratic reactions to various substances. i think that makes a lot of sense in explaining why some of us have these weird reactions.flux quit being so pitifully stupid. you have hurt too many people. you almost killed one lady due to your twisted logic and elevated opinion of yourself.


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

lenharley,incredible job you are doing here. i believe that you are providing extremely relevant information. our gov't has been tricked into dumping this toxic waste into our water supply.flux is 100%, pure, unadulterated (i won't say it).anyway, if he denies all the evidence that you have just presented then it just further goes to show how sick he is. i am going to be even more careful about the water i drink. i have been using bottled water for at least 2 years now but sometimes i cook with tap water. i am getting rid of all commercial toothpaste in favor of natural.i like gailsusan's paper on how some of us have these idiosyncratic reactions to various substances. i think that makes a lot of sense in explaining why some of us have these weird reactions.flux quit being so pitifully stupid. you have hurt too many people. you almost killed one lady due to your twisted logic and elevated opinion of yourself.


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/shamesfluoride.htm Richard Shames, M.D. graduated Harvard and University of Pennsylvania, did research at the National Institutes of Health with Nobel Prize winner Marshall Nirenberg, and has been in private practice for twenty five years. Dr. Shames practices holistic medicine -- with a focus on thyroid and autoimmune conditions -- out of Boca Raton, Florida, Drs. Shames: Of major interest to us was the statement released Jan 2, 1997 from the employees union of the Environmental Protection Agency, representing 1500 scientists, engineers, lawyers, and other professionals at EPA headquarters in Washington DC. The statement reads: "Our members' review of the body of evidence over the last 11 years, including animal and human epidemiology studies, indicates a causal link between fluoride/fluoridation and cancer, genetic damage, neurological impairment, and bone pathology."Since our review of the thyroid literature was revealing a growing epidemic, we became interested in possible causes for this mushrooming incidence of a specific autoimmune illness. We came to believe that the thyroid epidemic could be due, in large part, to the bombardment of our collective thyroid glands by chemicals considered to be helpful, but which are actually harmful. Fluoride is just one of a great many such substances dumped into the environment, with deleterious human results. It is a particularly noteworthy example because it is supposed to be beneficial, as well as totally benign to even the youngest members of the society, for whom it is targeted. In fact, it appears to be neither benign nor all that effective.


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/shamesfluoride.htm Richard Shames, M.D. graduated Harvard and University of Pennsylvania, did research at the National Institutes of Health with Nobel Prize winner Marshall Nirenberg, and has been in private practice for twenty five years. Dr. Shames practices holistic medicine -- with a focus on thyroid and autoimmune conditions -- out of Boca Raton, Florida, Drs. Shames: Of major interest to us was the statement released Jan 2, 1997 from the employees union of the Environmental Protection Agency, representing 1500 scientists, engineers, lawyers, and other professionals at EPA headquarters in Washington DC. The statement reads: "Our members' review of the body of evidence over the last 11 years, including animal and human epidemiology studies, indicates a causal link between fluoride/fluoridation and cancer, genetic damage, neurological impairment, and bone pathology."Since our review of the thyroid literature was revealing a growing epidemic, we became interested in possible causes for this mushrooming incidence of a specific autoimmune illness. We came to believe that the thyroid epidemic could be due, in large part, to the bombardment of our collective thyroid glands by chemicals considered to be helpful, but which are actually harmful. Fluoride is just one of a great many such substances dumped into the environment, with deleterious human results. It is a particularly noteworthy example because it is supposed to be beneficial, as well as totally benign to even the youngest members of the society, for whom it is targeted. In fact, it appears to be neither benign nor all that effective.


----------



## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

lenharley;so ,as you said,if i change my toothpaste and dosen't eat on a non-stick pan and evoid tea i can cure ibs,i would like to know how long it take, i'm curious about that.I already use a natural toothpaste last year with no cure.i cannot say if it was fluoride in it.


----------



## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

lenharley;so ,as you said,if i change my toothpaste and dosen't eat on a non-stick pan and evoid tea i can cure ibs,i would like to know how long it take, i'm curious about that.I already use a natural toothpaste last year with no cure.i cannot say if it was fluoride in it.


----------



## Persistance (Jul 11, 1999)

One wonders how much over-all comprehension there is in someone who not only totally misunderstands the extremely common expression "cut out of whole cloth?" which has been around for centuries -- and also, somehow managed to miss Flux's explanation of it? Not trying to be snide here, but all raise hands who haven't heard this old expression? (for the one or two in the world who hasn't, Googling it will give you a thousand different hits on it -- not one "racist").Whenever anybody stands firm against medical science by calling themselves misunderstood radicals, "ahead of their time," fighting the oh-so-close-minded advocates of facts and science -- they seem to forget that in order for something to become "mainstream," it has to go through years of testing. Many alternatives came _out_ of this route, and others went this route as well, and didn't withstand the test. If you do a Google, you'll find hundreds and hundreds of medical and scientific sites -- too many to mention here -- that cite the 50 years of use of research on flouride in our drinking water. I learned it is perhaps the most researched and studied issue in all of health science. And with its indisputable conclusion: it is safe. Over and over and over. Many of these articles cite "anti-flouride zealots" who persist with their crusades, but as yet have not proved their case one iota. So, I'd submit -- this anti-flouride stance is not only not new and cutting edge and open -- _it's_ what is reactionary and closed. What _is_ ahead of the curve and ahead of its time is the hypothesis that Eric and Flux and a handful of others put forward as the most cutting-edge discovery about IBS: that it is a disconnect between the mind and the gut (caused in susceptible people by, as I said, some event such as surgery, water and/or food poisoning, antibiotics), and can be exacerbated by stress (as Eric just posted). Not so simple as cutting something out of the diet (although we know there are triggers). Few things are that simple.


----------



## Persistance (Jul 11, 1999)

One wonders how much over-all comprehension there is in someone who not only totally misunderstands the extremely common expression "cut out of whole cloth?" which has been around for centuries -- and also, somehow managed to miss Flux's explanation of it? Not trying to be snide here, but all raise hands who haven't heard this old expression? (for the one or two in the world who hasn't, Googling it will give you a thousand different hits on it -- not one "racist").Whenever anybody stands firm against medical science by calling themselves misunderstood radicals, "ahead of their time," fighting the oh-so-close-minded advocates of facts and science -- they seem to forget that in order for something to become "mainstream," it has to go through years of testing. Many alternatives came _out_ of this route, and others went this route as well, and didn't withstand the test. If you do a Google, you'll find hundreds and hundreds of medical and scientific sites -- too many to mention here -- that cite the 50 years of use of research on flouride in our drinking water. I learned it is perhaps the most researched and studied issue in all of health science. And with its indisputable conclusion: it is safe. Over and over and over. Many of these articles cite "anti-flouride zealots" who persist with their crusades, but as yet have not proved their case one iota. So, I'd submit -- this anti-flouride stance is not only not new and cutting edge and open -- _it's_ what is reactionary and closed. What _is_ ahead of the curve and ahead of its time is the hypothesis that Eric and Flux and a handful of others put forward as the most cutting-edge discovery about IBS: that it is a disconnect between the mind and the gut (caused in susceptible people by, as I said, some event such as surgery, water and/or food poisoning, antibiotics), and can be exacerbated by stress (as Eric just posted). Not so simple as cutting something out of the diet (although we know there are triggers). Few things are that simple.


----------



## GoLightly (Mar 23, 2003)

I have to hold my hand up, and admit that I've never heard the expression either, and I consider myself to be a reasonably intelligent and well-educated person. But, like Len, I come from the UK so perhaps that has something to do with it?!Otherwise, I agree Persistance with everything else you've said. I'm pretty sure Fluoride is toxic in large doses but no more harmful in small doses that most of the other things we imbibe of a daily basis. I can't believe the small amounts in toothpaste (which you don't even swallow) can have any effect.I know my IBS-D is caused by a mind/gut problem and not by anything I eat. Saying that, it is helpful to read about other people's experiences (like Len's), and I was glad to find out about Calcium on these boards because it's constipating effect has helped me to a degree. But I find Len's "proof" as definitely open to debate (which this thread has certainly done).


----------



## GoLightly (Mar 23, 2003)

I have to hold my hand up, and admit that I've never heard the expression either, and I consider myself to be a reasonably intelligent and well-educated person. But, like Len, I come from the UK so perhaps that has something to do with it?!Otherwise, I agree Persistance with everything else you've said. I'm pretty sure Fluoride is toxic in large doses but no more harmful in small doses that most of the other things we imbibe of a daily basis. I can't believe the small amounts in toothpaste (which you don't even swallow) can have any effect.I know my IBS-D is caused by a mind/gut problem and not by anything I eat. Saying that, it is helpful to read about other people's experiences (like Len's), and I was glad to find out about Calcium on these boards because it's constipating effect has helped me to a degree. But I find Len's "proof" as definitely open to debate (which this thread has certainly done).


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

To Spasman,When I stopped tea, because of mouth injuries, my IBS disappeared within a couple of days. When it recurred on moving to a high F-water supply area, I switched to bottled water < 0.1ppm and the IBS went away again in less than a week.Professor Susheela says to allow 10-15 days. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/waterforum/message/9019 I didnï¿½t say it would definitely cure you.It DID definitely cure me It DID definitely cure the 2 others I mention in this original post. (To date these are the only 2 sufferers I know who have tested this)There IS Science to support this.I posted this story to try to find out much IBS is Fluoride inducedItï¿½s DEFINITELY worth tryingThank you very much for your interest SpasmanAnd please let me know how you do?Thanks Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

To Spasman,When I stopped tea, because of mouth injuries, my IBS disappeared within a couple of days. When it recurred on moving to a high F-water supply area, I switched to bottled water < 0.1ppm and the IBS went away again in less than a week.Professor Susheela says to allow 10-15 days. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/waterforum/message/9019 I didnï¿½t say it would definitely cure you.It DID definitely cure me It DID definitely cure the 2 others I mention in this original post. (To date these are the only 2 sufferers I know who have tested this)There IS Science to support this.I posted this story to try to find out much IBS is Fluoride inducedItï¿½s DEFINITELY worth tryingThank you very much for your interest SpasmanAnd please let me know how you do?Thanks Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

To Persistence,Thank you for the enlightenment about the expression. ï¿½Cut out of whole clothï¿½.It is appreciated.The jibe about ï¿½over-all comprehensionï¿½ was inappropriateWe seem to have a case of Churchillï¿½s ï¿½Two nations divided by a common languageï¿½Expressions, common in American English are not necessarily common in UK English.That is why I asked for an explanation, which was not forthcoming.Although I have an unusually broad Higher Education, and some Language qualifications as well, I have never, consciously, heard this expression. Because this site is dominated by US contributors I am careful to adapt my English accordingly as best I can.If I conducted my contributions in French, and you didnï¿½t understand them, I would not Insult your ï¿½overall comprehensionï¿½.I think you will agree that lack of encounter with an expression has no logical connection to the ability to comprehend.I will accept that Fluxï¿½s use of this epithet, to dismiss, insult and ignore research conducted in India, was an unfortunate and regrettable coincidence. I further accept that the selection of this particular expression, did not come from unconscious associations with images of India, nor Ghandiï¿½s expression of Indian identity by weaving their own cloth.Qoute:---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Whenever anybody stands firm against medical science by calling themselves misunderstood radicals, "ahead of their time," fighting the oh-so-close-minded advocates of facts and science -- they seem to forget that in order for something to become "mainstream," it has to go through years of testing. Many alternatives came out of this route, and others went this route as well, and didn't withstand the test.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------(1)	I am not ï¿½standing firm against medical Scienceï¿½. The issues of the medical effects of Fluoride are not closed and settled. Those who stifle debate (see my next post) impede Medical Science.(2)	I have NOT described myself as a ï¿½misunderstood radicalï¿½(3)	Yes, letï¿½s test. Thatï¿½s what I came to ask for.(4) Yes, letï¿½s do the Science. Thanks Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

To Persistence,Thank you for the enlightenment about the expression. ï¿½Cut out of whole clothï¿½.It is appreciated.The jibe about ï¿½over-all comprehensionï¿½ was inappropriateWe seem to have a case of Churchillï¿½s ï¿½Two nations divided by a common languageï¿½Expressions, common in American English are not necessarily common in UK English.That is why I asked for an explanation, which was not forthcoming.Although I have an unusually broad Higher Education, and some Language qualifications as well, I have never, consciously, heard this expression. Because this site is dominated by US contributors I am careful to adapt my English accordingly as best I can.If I conducted my contributions in French, and you didnï¿½t understand them, I would not Insult your ï¿½overall comprehensionï¿½.I think you will agree that lack of encounter with an expression has no logical connection to the ability to comprehend.I will accept that Fluxï¿½s use of this epithet, to dismiss, insult and ignore research conducted in India, was an unfortunate and regrettable coincidence. I further accept that the selection of this particular expression, did not come from unconscious associations with images of India, nor Ghandiï¿½s expression of Indian identity by weaving their own cloth.Qoute:---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Whenever anybody stands firm against medical science by calling themselves misunderstood radicals, "ahead of their time," fighting the oh-so-close-minded advocates of facts and science -- they seem to forget that in order for something to become "mainstream," it has to go through years of testing. Many alternatives came out of this route, and others went this route as well, and didn't withstand the test.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------(1)	I am not ï¿½standing firm against medical Scienceï¿½. The issues of the medical effects of Fluoride are not closed and settled. Those who stifle debate (see my next post) impede Medical Science.(2)	I have NOT described myself as a ï¿½misunderstood radicalï¿½(3)	Yes, letï¿½s test. Thatï¿½s what I came to ask for.(4) Yes, letï¿½s do the Science. Thanks Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

I believe this is a Forum.I take that to be a meeting place for ï¿½debate, discussion and dialogueï¿½ I posted the experience of my cure(and others) in a spirit of helpfulness and enquiry.I would like to find out how common IBS/Fluoride problem is. I am willing to debate, discuss and dialogue with anyone. That is the function of a forum.I do not understand Fluxï¿½s postsThey do not attempt dialogue, discussion or debate.They consist of (1) Selected quotes by others(2)A pejorative word, expression, or a pasted picture.(3)A lengthy signature, dropping hints of pseudo-medical association, and sober warnings not to listen to others, intended to lend gravitas to the 2 or 3 words he has actually written.I know several contributors have advised me to ignore him. They may be wiser than I.Nonetheless I would like to appeal to him to respect this as a place for discussion.Mono-verbal (or pictorial) responses, such as ï¿½Nonesenseï¿½. "Baloney", "Hooey" and "Fish story" should not be the routine contribution of anyone in a constructive debate. When your contribution consists of "Nonesense"What if I were to reply "Nonesense to your nonesense"You see, if we behave as you do, then "discussion" ends.But that does seem to be your objective. That is not a fitting objective for a discussion forum.Please try to remember we meet here for discussion between individuals, on an equal footing, and on the basis of mutual respect.Whatever your beliefs as to the cause of IBS you do not advance them by trashing (Notice I didnï¿½t say ï¿½rubbishingï¿½ i.e.UK English!) other peopleï¿½s experiences/evidence/beliefs/researches/studies/Science.You act as if you are sniping from the lofty rock of established Science (or sometimes contradictorily of established ï¿½Common Senseï¿½) I think youï¿½re on a storm-tossed raft shooting peas at those trying to throw you a line.The only Science you stand for is the Science that agrees with you. You ignore inconvenient data.The only ï¿½common senseï¿½ you stand for is ï¿½current, indoctrinated, US common senseï¿½.i.e. It used to be ï¿½common senseï¿½ to keep Fluoride out of water in the US.It remains ï¿½common senseï¿½, in most countries to keep Fluoride out of water. Thank you Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

I believe this is a Forum.I take that to be a meeting place for ï¿½debate, discussion and dialogueï¿½ I posted the experience of my cure(and others) in a spirit of helpfulness and enquiry.I would like to find out how common IBS/Fluoride problem is. I am willing to debate, discuss and dialogue with anyone. That is the function of a forum.I do not understand Fluxï¿½s postsThey do not attempt dialogue, discussion or debate.They consist of (1) Selected quotes by others(2)A pejorative word, expression, or a pasted picture.(3)A lengthy signature, dropping hints of pseudo-medical association, and sober warnings not to listen to others, intended to lend gravitas to the 2 or 3 words he has actually written.I know several contributors have advised me to ignore him. They may be wiser than I.Nonetheless I would like to appeal to him to respect this as a place for discussion.Mono-verbal (or pictorial) responses, such as ï¿½Nonesenseï¿½. "Baloney", "Hooey" and "Fish story" should not be the routine contribution of anyone in a constructive debate. When your contribution consists of "Nonesense"What if I were to reply "Nonesense to your nonesense"You see, if we behave as you do, then "discussion" ends.But that does seem to be your objective. That is not a fitting objective for a discussion forum.Please try to remember we meet here for discussion between individuals, on an equal footing, and on the basis of mutual respect.Whatever your beliefs as to the cause of IBS you do not advance them by trashing (Notice I didnï¿½t say ï¿½rubbishingï¿½ i.e.UK English!) other peopleï¿½s experiences/evidence/beliefs/researches/studies/Science.You act as if you are sniping from the lofty rock of established Science (or sometimes contradictorily of established ï¿½Common Senseï¿½) I think youï¿½re on a storm-tossed raft shooting peas at those trying to throw you a line.The only Science you stand for is the Science that agrees with you. You ignore inconvenient data.The only ï¿½common senseï¿½ you stand for is ï¿½current, indoctrinated, US common senseï¿½.i.e. It used to be ï¿½common senseï¿½ to keep Fluoride out of water in the US.It remains ï¿½common senseï¿½, in most countries to keep Fluoride out of water. Thank you Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

To Golightlyï¿½ I had IBS for about 10 years before I had the accident that led to me stopping tea.In those 10m years I tended to blame Psychology/Stress/Emotions because:-(1)	That was the prevailing theory(2)	There was no other explanation available (Which, of course is why it was the prevailing theory)(3)	Because Stress affects IBS(4)	I was a practising Hypnotherapist at the time, well-versed in the mind-body connection.It was a total surprise to find that my IBS had an underlying physical cause. You did not say if you drank tea. I did not swallow my toothpaste, nor have a high-F water supply at that time. My IBS was caused entirely by the Fluoride in tea! It recurred at Feering which has a high F supply.If you do drink tea, would you be prepared to give it upfor a couple of weeks (along with other F products) just to see for certain?Thereï¿½s a chance youï¿½ll get the same surprise I got.Neither did you say what the F-content of your water-supply (Natural or added) was?Your Water Company will supply you with a copy of the analysis of you water supply. It is free and includes the F level.You say that my proof "is open to debate". So it is. Even better it is open to test. What have you got to lose?Thanks Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

To Golightlyï¿½ I had IBS for about 10 years before I had the accident that led to me stopping tea.In those 10m years I tended to blame Psychology/Stress/Emotions because:-(1)	That was the prevailing theory(2)	There was no other explanation available (Which, of course is why it was the prevailing theory)(3)	Because Stress affects IBS(4)	I was a practising Hypnotherapist at the time, well-versed in the mind-body connection.It was a total surprise to find that my IBS had an underlying physical cause. You did not say if you drank tea. I did not swallow my toothpaste, nor have a high-F water supply at that time. My IBS was caused entirely by the Fluoride in tea! It recurred at Feering which has a high F supply.If you do drink tea, would you be prepared to give it upfor a couple of weeks (along with other F products) just to see for certain?Thereï¿½s a chance youï¿½ll get the same surprise I got.Neither did you say what the F-content of your water-supply (Natural or added) was?Your Water Company will supply you with a copy of the analysis of you water supply. It is free and includes the F level.You say that my proof "is open to debate". So it is. Even better it is open to test. What have you got to lose?Thanks Len


----------



## GoLightly (Mar 23, 2003)

LenJust to say thank you for your reply but I am sceptical still I'm afraid which means I'm unlikely to give up tea. I could go in to great detail as to why not, I consider myself to be open-minded and would give most things a go but in this case I really do believe it would be inappropriate to my particular position.1. I have suffered from D since I was 10 years old (well before I ever drank tea).2. My D is 8 times out of 10 caused by the fear of having D. If someone phoned me now and said we're coming round to pick you up in a coach to go to a beach party I would be on the toilet within 5 minutes with a severe bout of D.If I'm going to sit here at my computer all day I will be fine. This is why I believe in the mind/gut connection!3. I only drink 1 or 2 cups of tea a day. I have over the years (I am now 38) pinned my hopes on cutting out certain drinks and food without success. Now I just avoid alcohol.4. I have stopped drinking tea for a week or more on a number of occasions recently when away from home with no noticeable effect on whether or not I suffer from D. And I didn't drink tea at all in my 20s when my D was at it's daily worst.5. In your opening post you suggested one of your main symptoms was gut pain which is not something I have ever particularly suffered from.6. For the last 3 years I have drunk bottled water as we have lead pipes here but there has been no difference in my health.7. I have reached some sort of balance now, by taking Calcium which has prevented the daily morning D, and by taking imodium whenever I have to go somewhere where I would have anxiety-induced D. I don't expect to find a miraculous cure.I could go on with more on my life-history (I've even seen a hypnotherapist) but I don't think it's necessary. If I had the faintest glimmer of hope that giving up tea would help me then I would like a shot...Having said that, I'm glad it's worked for you.


----------



## GoLightly (Mar 23, 2003)

LenJust to say thank you for your reply but I am sceptical still I'm afraid which means I'm unlikely to give up tea. I could go in to great detail as to why not, I consider myself to be open-minded and would give most things a go but in this case I really do believe it would be inappropriate to my particular position.1. I have suffered from D since I was 10 years old (well before I ever drank tea).2. My D is 8 times out of 10 caused by the fear of having D. If someone phoned me now and said we're coming round to pick you up in a coach to go to a beach party I would be on the toilet within 5 minutes with a severe bout of D.If I'm going to sit here at my computer all day I will be fine. This is why I believe in the mind/gut connection!3. I only drink 1 or 2 cups of tea a day. I have over the years (I am now 38) pinned my hopes on cutting out certain drinks and food without success. Now I just avoid alcohol.4. I have stopped drinking tea for a week or more on a number of occasions recently when away from home with no noticeable effect on whether or not I suffer from D. And I didn't drink tea at all in my 20s when my D was at it's daily worst.5. In your opening post you suggested one of your main symptoms was gut pain which is not something I have ever particularly suffered from.6. For the last 3 years I have drunk bottled water as we have lead pipes here but there has been no difference in my health.7. I have reached some sort of balance now, by taking Calcium which has prevented the daily morning D, and by taking imodium whenever I have to go somewhere where I would have anxiety-induced D. I don't expect to find a miraculous cure.I could go on with more on my life-history (I've even seen a hypnotherapist) but I don't think it's necessary. If I had the faintest glimmer of hope that giving up tea would help me then I would like a shot...Having said that, I'm glad it's worked for you.


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

To Golightly,Thanks for your response.I think it's true, that, although we may have both been given the IBS diagnosis tag, we have(had) different symptoms (D was never much of a problem for me) and maybe different disorders.Thanks, and Good Luck,Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

To Golightly,Thanks for your response.I think it's true, that, although we may have both been given the IBS diagnosis tag, we have(had) different symptoms (D was never much of a problem for me) and maybe different disorders.Thanks, and Good Luck,Len


----------



## 5069 (Jul 17, 2003)

I'd like to comment on TEA that I dearly love. It contains a bacteria and sometimes this can be activated and cause an infection or diarrhea. I wish I knew more about this only that it does happen.IBS is rampant in China where we get a lot of our tea. Where does tea in the USA and England come from? Anyone know?Eric, are you there? Can you comment on the bacteria in tea?Thank you, Annem


----------



## 5069 (Jul 17, 2003)

I'd like to comment on TEA that I dearly love. It contains a bacteria and sometimes this can be activated and cause an infection or diarrhea. I wish I knew more about this only that it does happen.IBS is rampant in China where we get a lot of our tea. Where does tea in the USA and England come from? Anyone know?Eric, are you there? Can you comment on the bacteria in tea?Thank you, Annem


----------



## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

You know with IBS the gut is overly sensitive to ALL stimuli, so for some fluoride might be a trigger, but it is not likely the cause of IBS.One problem here is its important to know alot about IBS, not just about the fluoride.You would have to show and prove how fluoride, dysregulates serotonin for example or what the effects are on the gastro track and go from there to match what they see in IBS. Its not inflammation, because just inflammation does not explain IBS. So by what mechanisms might it cause what they see with IBS pathology and how would it alter brain gut communications?annem, I am not totally familar with bacteria and tea, but one thing would be the water source you made the tea with as that may have bacteria in it. Also may depend on the type of tea perhaps and may even where it was grown.But where did you see or here that?I did a quick search. http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/columncc/cc960502.html http://www.fda.gov/fdac/departs/596_form.html http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m1590/8...1/article.jhtml


----------



## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

You know with IBS the gut is overly sensitive to ALL stimuli, so for some fluoride might be a trigger, but it is not likely the cause of IBS.One problem here is its important to know alot about IBS, not just about the fluoride.You would have to show and prove how fluoride, dysregulates serotonin for example or what the effects are on the gastro track and go from there to match what they see in IBS. Its not inflammation, because just inflammation does not explain IBS. So by what mechanisms might it cause what they see with IBS pathology and how would it alter brain gut communications?annem, I am not totally familar with bacteria and tea, but one thing would be the water source you made the tea with as that may have bacteria in it. Also may depend on the type of tea perhaps and may even where it was grown.But where did you see or here that?I did a quick search. http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/columncc/cc960502.html http://www.fda.gov/fdac/departs/596_form.html http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m1590/8...1/article.jhtml


----------



## 5069 (Jul 17, 2003)

Eric: Thanks, I knew you'd come through. I really don't remember exactly where I saw that about iced tea as it has been sometime ago but a guess would be our local newspaper. I will look here at home through books of mine and see if I can find anything on that and let all of you know. But, I just thought everyone knew that sometimes ice tea could make one sick. As far as IBS in the Orient, another person told me that. Your links were good, especially the Colorado State.Edu link in the article, "Is It Safe To Drink Ice Tea," by Ann Zander dated 5-2-96. Thanks, I appreciate this. Annem


----------



## 5069 (Jul 17, 2003)

Eric: Thanks, I knew you'd come through. I really don't remember exactly where I saw that about iced tea as it has been sometime ago but a guess would be our local newspaper. I will look here at home through books of mine and see if I can find anything on that and let all of you know. But, I just thought everyone knew that sometimes ice tea could make one sick. As far as IBS in the Orient, another person told me that. Your links were good, especially the Colorado State.Edu link in the article, "Is It Safe To Drink Ice Tea," by Ann Zander dated 5-2-96. Thanks, I appreciate this. Annem


----------



## Caroleenie (Nov 5, 2003)

Wow Stacie this is exactly how I feel!!!Why is it that I have never been right since a trip to Mexico 10 years ago? Why did I then develop Crohn's when they told me I had IBS for two years? Why are they telling me again that it is IBS? THEY DON'T KNOW and it is HELL to try to get a doctor who will help and not just say "well it is stress you know" They do indeed say this when they have no idea how to help you. I have spent many many hours researching this IBS "condition" and THEY DON'T HAVE A CLUE!!! AND I am finding that so many different herbal or diet things work for some and not others that I am totally convinced that it has nothing to do with diet or herbal "cures" Didn't they say to ulcer sufferers not long ago "this is caused by stress" when indeed it was a bacterial problem all along???!!! Ahhhh feels good to blast the medical profession yet again as I have seen so many GIs and GPs that the thought of seeing one more makes me want to puke! Floride??!! seems a bit of a stretch to me but EVENTUALLY we will have the answer. Wouldn't it be nice if it were in our life times!!!


----------



## Caroleenie (Nov 5, 2003)

Wow Stacie this is exactly how I feel!!!Why is it that I have never been right since a trip to Mexico 10 years ago? Why did I then develop Crohn's when they told me I had IBS for two years? Why are they telling me again that it is IBS? THEY DON'T KNOW and it is HELL to try to get a doctor who will help and not just say "well it is stress you know" They do indeed say this when they have no idea how to help you. I have spent many many hours researching this IBS "condition" and THEY DON'T HAVE A CLUE!!! AND I am finding that so many different herbal or diet things work for some and not others that I am totally convinced that it has nothing to do with diet or herbal "cures" Didn't they say to ulcer sufferers not long ago "this is caused by stress" when indeed it was a bacterial problem all along???!!! Ahhhh feels good to blast the medical profession yet again as I have seen so many GIs and GPs that the thought of seeing one more makes me want to puke! Floride??!! seems a bit of a stretch to me but EVENTUALLY we will have the answer. Wouldn't it be nice if it were in our life times!!!


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

To Annem,Here is the abstract of a Science article that should worry tea drinkers.Whilst ï¿½acute intoxicationï¿½ is deemed unlikely, tea lovers are advised to consider their consumption to ï¿½avoid potential chronic effectsï¿½. http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf...s/7500259a.html Of course ï¿½acute intoxicationï¿½ would be obvious enough to spot. Amongst the very many ï¿½chronic affects ï¿½ is IBS http://www.npwa.freeserve.co.uk/IBS.html Tea (especially Green Tea) is becoming more vaunted as a ï¿½health drinkï¿½ because of its high antioxidant catechin levels.But read this firstï¿½. http://www.mercola.com/2000/sept/10/green_...ide_thyroid.htm Personally I think tea should be seen as a powerful Chinese herb, (To be treated with appropriate respect and caution) and not drunk by the gallon as I used to.I understand the tea habit and perhaps I would never have tried giving it up on somebody elseï¿½s word alone But when I was forced to give it up for a few days, I was cured, like going from night to day!RegardsLen


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

To Annem,Here is the abstract of a Science article that should worry tea drinkers.Whilst ï¿½acute intoxicationï¿½ is deemed unlikely, tea lovers are advised to consider their consumption to ï¿½avoid potential chronic effectsï¿½. http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf...s/7500259a.html Of course ï¿½acute intoxicationï¿½ would be obvious enough to spot. Amongst the very many ï¿½chronic affects ï¿½ is IBS http://www.npwa.freeserve.co.uk/IBS.html Tea (especially Green Tea) is becoming more vaunted as a ï¿½health drinkï¿½ because of its high antioxidant catechin levels.But read this firstï¿½. http://www.mercola.com/2000/sept/10/green_...ide_thyroid.htm Personally I think tea should be seen as a powerful Chinese herb, (To be treated with appropriate respect and caution) and not drunk by the gallon as I used to.I understand the tea habit and perhaps I would never have tried giving it up on somebody elseï¿½s word alone But when I was forced to give it up for a few days, I was cured, like going from night to day!RegardsLen


----------



## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Green, Black, and Red: The Tea-Total Evidence http://wellnessletter.com/html/wl/2000/wlFeatured0300.html Stress and ulcers"Not all that long ago, most people ï¿½ and most doctors ï¿½ believed stress was a leading cause of stomach (or peptic) ulcers. Then research pointed to a bacterial infection as the primary cause. But even though stress isn't a primary cause, it still has an influence on the development of ulcers.About 90 percent of stomach ulcers are caused by infection with bacteria called H. pylori. But many people have H. pylori in their stomachs and never develop an ulcer. That's because other factors play a role, including genetic components, the taking of nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory medications such as aspirin or ibuprofen, as well as stress.The discovery of H. pylori as a cause does not invalidate stress as a contributor to peptic ulcer formation. Striking examples include the notable upsurge in peptic ulcers after super-stressful events such as the bombing of England during World War II and the Kobe earthquake.The stresses of life, such as losing a job or the death of a loved one, have been shown to increase the production of stomach acid. The overabundance of acid creates an environment in which ulcer formation is more likely. Stress may also contribute by weakening the immune system and decreasing the ability to heal an early ulcer. Stress also may play a role in determining how quickly an ulcer will heal. Antibiotic treatment against H. pylori is successful for the vast majority of patients. But stress may delay healing, and antibiotics may falter amid persistent stress or excessive anxiety. In that case, you might want to consider learning stress-management techniques. You can try relaxation tapes or progressive muscle relaxation. You also might want to try behavioral therapy to learn other coping strategies for your stressful situations.If you've been under a great deal of stress and think you may be developing an ulcer, see your doctor for an evaluation. Symptoms to watch for include a gnawing sensation in the upper part of your stomach below your breastbone ï¿½ a feeling that is relieved by eating, because food helps to neutralize the acid just the way antacids do.Pain may not be the main symptom of an ulcer. If you have a bleeding ulcer you may have no discomfort at all. Your clue that something is wrong will be black, tarry stools ï¿½ a sign that blood is present.Although not the main cause of ulcers, stress should not be ignored as a contributor. Stress was overstressed in the past. It should not be understressed now." http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH?t=219...,WSIHW000|~b,*| Just like Ulcers also stress *Ican be* a contributing factor to developing IBS and two majorally in generating symptoms.Does stress cause IBS or similar disorders in the GI Tract?Does stress exassperate symptoms in patients who already have this disorder?What kinds of stress are the worse and will problems go away if stress is decreased."These questions and many more like them are often asked by patients with GI disorders. They are also asked by physicians who are confronted with a confusing set of symptoms and few ï¿½objectiveï¿½ physiological markers for disease (like infections or blockage). As you might expect there are no simple answers, but new research has begun to point the way to a better picture of how stress and GI problems might be linked and even ways to address the role of stress in treatment. The first thing to remember is that stress has a strong impact on the GI tract in everyone. It is well known that patients with IBS often report that stressful events precede the onset or exacerbation of IBS symptoms. In one survey study for example 73% of IBS patients reported that stress altered their stool pattern, and 84% reported that stress led to abdominal pain. Interestingly in the same study 54% of persons without IBS also reported stress altered stool patterns and 68% reported stress caused abdominal pain. While affecting everyone, stress does seem to more strongly impact GI function in persons with IBS or similar disorders, such as dyspepsia, or chronic heartburn. In a recent study examining IBS patients over a several year period, up to 90% of the fluctuations in symptoms could be predicted by chronic stressors during the several preceding months. Another recent study examined patients who developed an acute GI infection (often after traveling in a foreign country). Most of the subjects recovered over a period of a few weeks with treatment but a significant percentage seemed to develop chronic symptoms similar to IBS. Level of stress during the three months prior to the infection was a strong predictor of who did and did not develop these chronic symptoms. Thus while stress is not the sole cause of IBS some stress clearly play a significant role in generating and prolonging symptoms in susceptible individuals, especially those with some GI symptoms. " http://ibs.med.ucla.edu/Articles/PatientAr...l99StressGI.htm Neurophysiology of Brain-Gut Interactions During Stress "Jack Wood, PhDProfessor of Physiology and Internal MedicineChairman Emeritus, Department of PhysiologyThe Ohio State University College of Medicine Dr. Wood was the first to use microelectrodes to record the electrical and synaptic behavior of neurons in the enteric nervous system. He coined the term "brain-in-the-gut" in view of emerging evidence that the enteric nervous system had neurophysiological properties like the brain and spinal cord. In recent years he has focused on signaling interactions between the enteric immune system and the brain-in-the-gut during infectious enteritis and food allergy. In this lecture he shows how the central nervous system, enteric nervous system and intestinal immune system are integrated during physical and emotional stress to produce irritable bowel symptoms of diarrhea and abdominal pain and discomfort." http://www.conference-cast.com/ibs/Lecture...dRegLecture.cfm J Neuroimmunol. 2004 Jan;146(1-2):1-12. Related Articles, Links Critical role of mast cells in inflammatory diseases and the effect of acute stress.Theoharides TC, Cochrane DE.Department of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics, Tufts-New England Medical Center, Boston, MA, USAMast cells are not only necessary for allergic reactions, but recent findings indicate that they are also involved in a variety of neuroinflammatory diseases, especially those worsened by stress. In these cases, mast cells appear to be activated through their Fc receptors by immunoglobulins other than IgE, as well as by anaphylatoxins, neuropeptides and cytokines to secrete mediators selectively without overt degranulation. These facts can help us better understand a variety of sterile inflammatory conditions, such as multiple sclerosis (MS), migraines, inflammatory arthritis, atopic dermatitis, coronary inflammation, interstitial cystitis and irritable bowel syndrome, in which mast cells are activated without allergic degranulation.PMID: 14698841


----------



## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Green, Black, and Red: The Tea-Total Evidence http://wellnessletter.com/html/wl/2000/wlFeatured0300.html Stress and ulcers"Not all that long ago, most people ï¿½ and most doctors ï¿½ believed stress was a leading cause of stomach (or peptic) ulcers. Then research pointed to a bacterial infection as the primary cause. But even though stress isn't a primary cause, it still has an influence on the development of ulcers.About 90 percent of stomach ulcers are caused by infection with bacteria called H. pylori. But many people have H. pylori in their stomachs and never develop an ulcer. That's because other factors play a role, including genetic components, the taking of nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory medications such as aspirin or ibuprofen, as well as stress.The discovery of H. pylori as a cause does not invalidate stress as a contributor to peptic ulcer formation. Striking examples include the notable upsurge in peptic ulcers after super-stressful events such as the bombing of England during World War II and the Kobe earthquake.The stresses of life, such as losing a job or the death of a loved one, have been shown to increase the production of stomach acid. The overabundance of acid creates an environment in which ulcer formation is more likely. Stress may also contribute by weakening the immune system and decreasing the ability to heal an early ulcer. Stress also may play a role in determining how quickly an ulcer will heal. Antibiotic treatment against H. pylori is successful for the vast majority of patients. But stress may delay healing, and antibiotics may falter amid persistent stress or excessive anxiety. In that case, you might want to consider learning stress-management techniques. You can try relaxation tapes or progressive muscle relaxation. You also might want to try behavioral therapy to learn other coping strategies for your stressful situations.If you've been under a great deal of stress and think you may be developing an ulcer, see your doctor for an evaluation. Symptoms to watch for include a gnawing sensation in the upper part of your stomach below your breastbone ï¿½ a feeling that is relieved by eating, because food helps to neutralize the acid just the way antacids do.Pain may not be the main symptom of an ulcer. If you have a bleeding ulcer you may have no discomfort at all. Your clue that something is wrong will be black, tarry stools ï¿½ a sign that blood is present.Although not the main cause of ulcers, stress should not be ignored as a contributor. Stress was overstressed in the past. It should not be understressed now." http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH?t=219...,WSIHW000|~b,*| Just like Ulcers also stress *Ican be* a contributing factor to developing IBS and two majorally in generating symptoms.Does stress cause IBS or similar disorders in the GI Tract?Does stress exassperate symptoms in patients who already have this disorder?What kinds of stress are the worse and will problems go away if stress is decreased."These questions and many more like them are often asked by patients with GI disorders. They are also asked by physicians who are confronted with a confusing set of symptoms and few ï¿½objectiveï¿½ physiological markers for disease (like infections or blockage). As you might expect there are no simple answers, but new research has begun to point the way to a better picture of how stress and GI problems might be linked and even ways to address the role of stress in treatment. The first thing to remember is that stress has a strong impact on the GI tract in everyone. It is well known that patients with IBS often report that stressful events precede the onset or exacerbation of IBS symptoms. In one survey study for example 73% of IBS patients reported that stress altered their stool pattern, and 84% reported that stress led to abdominal pain. Interestingly in the same study 54% of persons without IBS also reported stress altered stool patterns and 68% reported stress caused abdominal pain. While affecting everyone, stress does seem to more strongly impact GI function in persons with IBS or similar disorders, such as dyspepsia, or chronic heartburn. In a recent study examining IBS patients over a several year period, up to 90% of the fluctuations in symptoms could be predicted by chronic stressors during the several preceding months. Another recent study examined patients who developed an acute GI infection (often after traveling in a foreign country). Most of the subjects recovered over a period of a few weeks with treatment but a significant percentage seemed to develop chronic symptoms similar to IBS. Level of stress during the three months prior to the infection was a strong predictor of who did and did not develop these chronic symptoms. Thus while stress is not the sole cause of IBS some stress clearly play a significant role in generating and prolonging symptoms in susceptible individuals, especially those with some GI symptoms. " http://ibs.med.ucla.edu/Articles/PatientAr...l99StressGI.htm Neurophysiology of Brain-Gut Interactions During Stress "Jack Wood, PhDProfessor of Physiology and Internal MedicineChairman Emeritus, Department of PhysiologyThe Ohio State University College of Medicine Dr. Wood was the first to use microelectrodes to record the electrical and synaptic behavior of neurons in the enteric nervous system. He coined the term "brain-in-the-gut" in view of emerging evidence that the enteric nervous system had neurophysiological properties like the brain and spinal cord. In recent years he has focused on signaling interactions between the enteric immune system and the brain-in-the-gut during infectious enteritis and food allergy. In this lecture he shows how the central nervous system, enteric nervous system and intestinal immune system are integrated during physical and emotional stress to produce irritable bowel symptoms of diarrhea and abdominal pain and discomfort." http://www.conference-cast.com/ibs/Lecture...dRegLecture.cfm J Neuroimmunol. 2004 Jan;146(1-2):1-12. Related Articles, Links Critical role of mast cells in inflammatory diseases and the effect of acute stress.Theoharides TC, Cochrane DE.Department of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics, Tufts-New England Medical Center, Boston, MA, USAMast cells are not only necessary for allergic reactions, but recent findings indicate that they are also involved in a variety of neuroinflammatory diseases, especially those worsened by stress. In these cases, mast cells appear to be activated through their Fc receptors by immunoglobulins other than IgE, as well as by anaphylatoxins, neuropeptides and cytokines to secrete mediators selectively without overt degranulation. These facts can help us better understand a variety of sterile inflammatory conditions, such as multiple sclerosis (MS), migraines, inflammatory arthritis, atopic dermatitis, coronary inflammation, interstitial cystitis and irritable bowel syndrome, in which mast cells are activated without allergic degranulation.PMID: 14698841


----------



## california123 (Jun 8, 2003)

Hi annem,About the iced tea concern. I think you might be talking about "sun tea" where you put water and tea bags in a jar and then leave it out in the sun to get hot and steep itself. Well, it turned out some people left it outside way too long and it began to form bacteria/mold/or something else that could make you ill. So they recommended that if you wanted to make iced tea without boiling water to combine water and tea bags in a covered container and leave it overnight in the frig. Cold tea in the morning without the fear of problems. Hope this helps. Take care.


----------



## california123 (Jun 8, 2003)

Hi annem,About the iced tea concern. I think you might be talking about "sun tea" where you put water and tea bags in a jar and then leave it out in the sun to get hot and steep itself. Well, it turned out some people left it outside way too long and it began to form bacteria/mold/or something else that could make you ill. So they recommended that if you wanted to make iced tea without boiling water to combine water and tea bags in a covered container and leave it overnight in the frig. Cold tea in the morning without the fear of problems. Hope this helps. Take care.


----------



## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

len harley;you're link for the images of the cell guts dosen't said how much mg it take to feel sick!Do you know when exactly they done this research and if the medical communauty had tell their comment on that?It's tough to understand this research for me but it seems too easy.


----------



## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

len harley;you're link for the images of the cell guts dosen't said how much mg it take to feel sick!Do you know when exactly they done this research and if the medical communauty had tell their comment on that?It's tough to understand this research for me but it seems too easy.


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Hi Spasman,It may sometimes be tough to understand research, but to TEST this for yourself is straightforward.I got better when I knew nothing about Fluoride and didnï¿½t care either!If it seems too easy, why not try? It is not THAT easy to avoid Fluoride, even for a week or so, in Canada I believe?When you ask about mg. Do you mean mg/litre in water? (ppmï¿½parts per million is exactly the same).Some research Iï¿½ve seen suggests problems at around 1ppm. (img/Litre)I certainly got ill again at Feering where the water was 1ppm (1mg/Litre). And I was off tea and F Dental products at that point!But life is not like the science experiments that isolate a single stimulus (like 1ppm in water)In real life we get Fluoride from foods, beverages and other products. (TEA IS THE BIG ONE).This does not make Fluoride OK. We get Mercury, Lead etc in the same ways. http://bruha.com/pfpc/html/picture_i.html This is also complicated by the fact that Aluminium(in tea) and Fluoride potentiate each other in extremely worrying detrimental effects. Here are the two lists of Professor Susheelaï¿½s papers (With publication dates) http://education.vsnl.com/fluorosis/publication.html http://education.vsnl.com/fluorosis/animal.html Follow these links and you will find enough material to make any rational person at least question Fluoride. http://64.177.90.157/science/index.html http://www.mercola.com/article/links/fluoride_links.htm Scientists often work in very isolated ways. Today a scientist contacted me who has already published work on Fluoride in tea, and its hazards. She expressed enthusiastic interest and wanted to know more about Professor Susheelaï¿½s work and where she could find it!Perhaps, if Professor Susheela were American, or if there was money to be made NOT putting F in water, her work would be better known?The sad fact is, I think, that nobody much has any vested interest in publicising the Fluoride/IBS link. Rather the reverse.That does not alter the validity of the data in any way.It is only my impression; but it seems that those who study Fluoride in depth are not at all keen on it. It is pushed by Dental Health professionals, politicians, administrators and Public Health officials. The trials that were done to justify US fluoridation were done at a time when Scientists were still proving that cigarettes donï¿½t cause cancer.All the best Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Hi Spasman,It may sometimes be tough to understand research, but to TEST this for yourself is straightforward.I got better when I knew nothing about Fluoride and didnï¿½t care either!If it seems too easy, why not try? It is not THAT easy to avoid Fluoride, even for a week or so, in Canada I believe?When you ask about mg. Do you mean mg/litre in water? (ppmï¿½parts per million is exactly the same).Some research Iï¿½ve seen suggests problems at around 1ppm. (img/Litre)I certainly got ill again at Feering where the water was 1ppm (1mg/Litre). And I was off tea and F Dental products at that point!But life is not like the science experiments that isolate a single stimulus (like 1ppm in water)In real life we get Fluoride from foods, beverages and other products. (TEA IS THE BIG ONE).This does not make Fluoride OK. We get Mercury, Lead etc in the same ways. http://bruha.com/pfpc/html/picture_i.html This is also complicated by the fact that Aluminium(in tea) and Fluoride potentiate each other in extremely worrying detrimental effects. Here are the two lists of Professor Susheelaï¿½s papers (With publication dates) http://education.vsnl.com/fluorosis/publication.html http://education.vsnl.com/fluorosis/animal.html Follow these links and you will find enough material to make any rational person at least question Fluoride. http://64.177.90.157/science/index.html http://www.mercola.com/article/links/fluoride_links.htm Scientists often work in very isolated ways. Today a scientist contacted me who has already published work on Fluoride in tea, and its hazards. She expressed enthusiastic interest and wanted to know more about Professor Susheelaï¿½s work and where she could find it!Perhaps, if Professor Susheela were American, or if there was money to be made NOT putting F in water, her work would be better known?The sad fact is, I think, that nobody much has any vested interest in publicising the Fluoride/IBS link. Rather the reverse.That does not alter the validity of the data in any way.It is only my impression; but it seems that those who study Fluoride in depth are not at all keen on it. It is pushed by Dental Health professionals, politicians, administrators and Public Health officials. The trials that were done to justify US fluoridation were done at a time when Scientists were still proving that cigarettes donï¿½t cause cancer.All the best Len


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

A summary of this thread...


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

A summary of this thread...


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

To Flux and all,I think this bears repetition...This is a discussion forum.Therefore I do not understand Fluxï¿½s postsThey do not attempt dialogue, discussion or debate.They consist of (1) Selected quotes by others(2)A pejorative word, expression, or a pasted picture.(3)A lengthy signature, dropping hints of pseudo-medical association, and sober warnings not to listen to others, intended to lend gravitas to the 2 or 3 words he has actually written.I know several contributors have advised me to ignore him. They may be wiser than I.Nonetheless I would like to appeal to him to respect this as a place for discussion.Mono-verbal (or pictorial) responses, such as ï¿½Nonesenseï¿½. "Baloney", "Hooey", "Fish story" or "balderdash" should not be the routine contribution of anyone in a constructive debate. When your contribution consists of "Balderdash"What if I were to reply "Balderdash to your Balderdash"You see, if we behave as you do, then "discussion" ends.That appears to be your objective. But that is not a fitting objective for a "discussion" forum.Please try to remember we meet here for discussion between individuals, on an equal footing, and on the basis of mutual respect.Whatever your beliefs as to the cause of IBS you do not advance them by trashing other peopleï¿½s experiences/evidence/beliefs/researches/studies/Science.What happened to me happened. Cheap abuse will not change it.Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

To Flux and all,I think this bears repetition...This is a discussion forum.Therefore I do not understand Fluxï¿½s postsThey do not attempt dialogue, discussion or debate.They consist of (1) Selected quotes by others(2)A pejorative word, expression, or a pasted picture.(3)A lengthy signature, dropping hints of pseudo-medical association, and sober warnings not to listen to others, intended to lend gravitas to the 2 or 3 words he has actually written.I know several contributors have advised me to ignore him. They may be wiser than I.Nonetheless I would like to appeal to him to respect this as a place for discussion.Mono-verbal (or pictorial) responses, such as ï¿½Nonesenseï¿½. "Baloney", "Hooey", "Fish story" or "balderdash" should not be the routine contribution of anyone in a constructive debate. When your contribution consists of "Balderdash"What if I were to reply "Balderdash to your Balderdash"You see, if we behave as you do, then "discussion" ends.That appears to be your objective. But that is not a fitting objective for a "discussion" forum.Please try to remember we meet here for discussion between individuals, on an equal footing, and on the basis of mutual respect.Whatever your beliefs as to the cause of IBS you do not advance them by trashing other peopleï¿½s experiences/evidence/beliefs/researches/studies/Science.What happened to me happened. Cheap abuse will not change it.Len


----------



## floridian2 (Dec 1, 2003)

Len,the "1 condition or 20?" comment is on the mark. For me, cutting way back on fructose means normality. The improvement was rapid and unmistakeable. Eating too much fructose brings the problem back. I had never heard of (or imagined) fructose intolerance or malabsorption. This wasn't caused by nerves or emotional energy (probably the reverse - the IBS drained my mental energy, caused stress related drop in cognitive performance). But in some, the brain does trouble the gut. As I mentioned in another post (and another thread), I could find nothing in the medical literature on fluoride and IBS (see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi). To me, that means the question is open. There are no studies supporting the idea, and none arguing against it. I also don't doubt your personal experience. I don't know if this is a widespread condition or a rare one.


----------



## floridian2 (Dec 1, 2003)

Len,the "1 condition or 20?" comment is on the mark. For me, cutting way back on fructose means normality. The improvement was rapid and unmistakeable. Eating too much fructose brings the problem back. I had never heard of (or imagined) fructose intolerance or malabsorption. This wasn't caused by nerves or emotional energy (probably the reverse - the IBS drained my mental energy, caused stress related drop in cognitive performance). But in some, the brain does trouble the gut. As I mentioned in another post (and another thread), I could find nothing in the medical literature on fluoride and IBS (see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi). To me, that means the question is open. There are no studies supporting the idea, and none arguing against it. I also don't doubt your personal experience. I don't know if this is a widespread condition or a rare one.


----------



## Mrs Bear (Apr 9, 2003)

I totally agree with Lenharley!! It has been some months since I have visited this board, and I can't believe Flux is still telling people what they should think. With something so subjective as IBS, Flux does not seem to want to discuss any possibilities. 'YOU ARE WRONG' is all I hear!!!The majority of these four pages have been Flux picking holes in what people say. Can't we be a bit more supportive, we are supposed to understand (somewhat) how each other feels.Let's make this the 'IBS Self-Help and SUPPORT! Bulletin Board' as it is named.Mrs Bear


----------



## Mrs Bear (Apr 9, 2003)

I totally agree with Lenharley!! It has been some months since I have visited this board, and I can't believe Flux is still telling people what they should think. With something so subjective as IBS, Flux does not seem to want to discuss any possibilities. 'YOU ARE WRONG' is all I hear!!!The majority of these four pages have been Flux picking holes in what people say. Can't we be a bit more supportive, we are supposed to understand (somewhat) how each other feels.Let's make this the 'IBS Self-Help and SUPPORT! Bulletin Board' as it is named.Mrs Bear


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

len,keep up the good work. fluoride may not be the cause of everyone's problem but everything that i have read tells me that this stuff should NOT be in our water supply against our will. if anything the gov't should give us the option of taking a supplemental pill. --but in any event it should be our choice concerning this toxin. http://www.fluoridealert.org http://www.orgsites.com/ny/nyscof http://www.enn.com/direct/display-by-affiliate.asp?id=1765 http://www.fluoridation.com http://www.bruha.com/fluoride http://www.garynull.com/issues/Fluoride/Fl...eActionFile.htm http://www.citizens.org/Food_water_safety/...on/fluoride.htm http://www.npwa.freeserve.co.uk http://www.glenwalker.net http://www.fluoride.org.uk http://www.fluoridefree.com http://www.dartmouth.edu/~rmasters/AHABS/welcome.htm


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

len,keep up the good work. fluoride may not be the cause of everyone's problem but everything that i have read tells me that this stuff should NOT be in our water supply against our will. if anything the gov't should give us the option of taking a supplemental pill. --but in any event it should be our choice concerning this toxin. http://www.fluoridealert.org http://www.orgsites.com/ny/nyscof http://www.enn.com/direct/display-by-affiliate.asp?id=1765 http://www.fluoridation.com http://www.bruha.com/fluoride http://www.garynull.com/issues/Fluoride/Fl...eActionFile.htm http://www.citizens.org/Food_water_safety/...on/fluoride.htm http://www.npwa.freeserve.co.uk http://www.glenwalker.net http://www.fluoride.org.uk http://www.fluoridefree.com http://www.dartmouth.edu/~rmasters/AHABS/welcome.htm


----------



## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

what is the date they done the research in india?It seems tough to follow this diet.Fructose seems worst than fluoride.I'm scrap!


----------



## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

what is the date they done the research in india?It seems tough to follow this diet.Fructose seems worst than fluoride.I'm scrap!


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:When your contribution consists of "Balderdash"What if I were to reply "Balderdash to your Balderdash"


Then your reply would be as untrue as your statements.







It's essentially the same thing as creationism vs evolution.


> quote:I could find nothing in the medical literature on fluoride and IBS (seehttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi). To me, that means the question is open.


This is logic?


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:When your contribution consists of "Balderdash"What if I were to reply "Balderdash to your Balderdash"


Then your reply would be as untrue as your statements.







It's essentially the same thing as creationism vs evolution.


> quote:I could find nothing in the medical literature on fluoride and IBS (seehttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi). To me, that means the question is open.


This is logic?


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

quote: (LenHarley) When your contribution consists of "Balderdash"What if I were to reply "Balderdash to your Balderdash"------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: (Flux)Then your reply would be as untrue as your statements. It's essentially the same thing as creationism vs evolution. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------And if I were to reply that ï¿½this reply was as untrue as YOUR statementsï¿½ï¿½ï¿½We would get absolutely nowhere. Yahbooing is not discussion, nor is it mutual support.Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

quote: (LenHarley) When your contribution consists of "Balderdash"What if I were to reply "Balderdash to your Balderdash"------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: (Flux)Then your reply would be as untrue as your statements. It's essentially the same thing as creationism vs evolution. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------And if I were to reply that ï¿½this reply was as untrue as YOUR statementsï¿½ï¿½ï¿½We would get absolutely nowhere. Yahbooing is not discussion, nor is it mutual support.Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

"I would advise against fluoridation.. Side-effects cannot be excluded .. In Sweden, the emphasis nowadays is to keep the environment as clean as possible with regard to pharmacologically active and, thus, potentially toxic substances." - Dr. Arvid Carlsson, co-winner of the Nobel Prize for Medicine (2000) ------------------------------------- "The American Medical Association is NOT prepared to state that no harm will be done to any person by water fluoridation. The AMA has not carried out any research work, either long-term or short-term, regarding the possibility of any side effects." - Dr. Flanagan, Assistant Director of Environmental Health, American Medical Association. [letter] -------------------------------------------------- "I am appalled at the prospect of using water as a vehicle for drugs. Fluoride is a corrosive poison that will produce serious effects on a long range basis. Any attempt to use water this way is deplorable." - Dr. Charles Gordon Heyd, Past President of the American Medical Association. --------------------------------------------"E.P.A. should act immediately to protect the public, not just on the cancer data, but on the evidence of bone fractures, arthritis, mutagenicity and other effects." - Dr. William Marcus, Senior Toxicologist at E.P.A. --------------------------------------------"Water contains a number of substances that are undesirable, and fluorides are just one of them" stated Dr. F. A. Bull, State Dental Director of Wisconsin, speaking at the Fourth Annual Conference of State Dental Directors. ------------------------------------------------Are these obvious "ceationists" Flux?The safety of Fluoride has never been a closed question for Scientists.LenSee http://www.nofluoride.com/quotes.htm


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

"I would advise against fluoridation.. Side-effects cannot be excluded .. In Sweden, the emphasis nowadays is to keep the environment as clean as possible with regard to pharmacologically active and, thus, potentially toxic substances." - Dr. Arvid Carlsson, co-winner of the Nobel Prize for Medicine (2000) ------------------------------------- "The American Medical Association is NOT prepared to state that no harm will be done to any person by water fluoridation. The AMA has not carried out any research work, either long-term or short-term, regarding the possibility of any side effects." - Dr. Flanagan, Assistant Director of Environmental Health, American Medical Association. [letter] -------------------------------------------------- "I am appalled at the prospect of using water as a vehicle for drugs. Fluoride is a corrosive poison that will produce serious effects on a long range basis. Any attempt to use water this way is deplorable." - Dr. Charles Gordon Heyd, Past President of the American Medical Association. --------------------------------------------"E.P.A. should act immediately to protect the public, not just on the cancer data, but on the evidence of bone fractures, arthritis, mutagenicity and other effects." - Dr. William Marcus, Senior Toxicologist at E.P.A. --------------------------------------------"Water contains a number of substances that are undesirable, and fluorides are just one of them" stated Dr. F. A. Bull, State Dental Director of Wisconsin, speaking at the Fourth Annual Conference of State Dental Directors. ------------------------------------------------Are these obvious "ceationists" Flux?The safety of Fluoride has never been a closed question for Scientists.LenSee http://www.nofluoride.com/quotes.htm


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

A likely source for some (or all) of these quotes:


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

A likely source for some (or all) of these quotes:


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Flux,Your loom picture is just another way of saying "Rubbish" "Balderdash" etc. etc. etc.My previous comments about this kind of "Yahboo" exchange apply.This is a discussion group.You are not taking part in discussion.You only offer grunts of contradiction.---------------------------------------------You accused me(With a picture) of "Baloney"for saying "Fluoride is poisonous"For the 10th. time. What is the toxicity of Fluoride? Is it more poisonous than Lead?Now, in a discussion, it is customary to respond.Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Flux,Your loom picture is just another way of saying "Rubbish" "Balderdash" etc. etc. etc.My previous comments about this kind of "Yahboo" exchange apply.This is a discussion group.You are not taking part in discussion.You only offer grunts of contradiction.---------------------------------------------You accused me(With a picture) of "Baloney"for saying "Fluoride is poisonous"For the 10th. time. What is the toxicity of Fluoride? Is it more poisonous than Lead?Now, in a discussion, it is customary to respond.Len


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

50 REASONS TO OPPOSE FLUORIDATIONDate added: 08/24/02 New News Items by Paul Connett, Ph.D.March 6, 2001 SEE ALSO: FLUORIDE ALERT1) Fluoride is not an essential nutrient. No disease has ever been linked to a fluoride deficiency. Humans can have perfectly good teeth without fluoride. 2) Fluoridation is not necessary. Most Western European countries are not fluoridated and have experienced the same decline in dental decay as the US (see data from World Health Organization on levels of tooth decay in Europe, US, New Zealand, and Australia in Appendix 1).3) Fluoridation's role in the ........ for the remaining 47 reasons see...... http://www.dcnutrition.com/news/Detail.CFM?RecordNumber=641


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

50 REASONS TO OPPOSE FLUORIDATIONDate added: 08/24/02 New News Items by Paul Connett, Ph.D.March 6, 2001 SEE ALSO: FLUORIDE ALERT1) Fluoride is not an essential nutrient. No disease has ever been linked to a fluoride deficiency. Humans can have perfectly good teeth without fluoride. 2) Fluoridation is not necessary. Most Western European countries are not fluoridated and have experienced the same decline in dental decay as the US (see data from World Health Organization on levels of tooth decay in Europe, US, New Zealand, and Australia in Appendix 1).3) Fluoridation's role in the ........ for the remaining 47 reasons see...... http://www.dcnutrition.com/news/Detail.CFM?RecordNumber=641


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.dcnutrition.com/news/Detail.CFM?RecordNumber=608 http://www.dcnutrition.com/news/ Is Fluoride Really As Safe As You Are Told? Part 1 of 3Fluoride is added to the water supply of most American cities for the ostensible purpose of dental hygiene. The reader will be amazed to find out that such a thing is not only unlikely, but actually the reverse of the ongoing realityThe U.S. has been fluoridating drinking water for so many decades that we hardly think about it. Very few articles appear about fluoridation in newspapers and magazines any more. At least chlorine will evaporate from a glass of water if you let it sit for an hour or so. No such luck with fluoride. Even cooking, food processing, filtration, or digestion doesn't remove fluoride. Goes right up the food chain. Accumulates in fat cells.........that fluoride was not safe at all, but was actually a carcinogenic industrial waste? .......a toxic industrial waste could be passed off on the public as a nutrient with necessary health benefits, to the tune of $10 billion per year. Or more. http://www.dcnutrition.com/news/Detail.CFM?RecordNumber=609 Fluoride poisonings are most likely to kill children http://www.dcnutrition.com/news/Detail.CFM?RecordNumber=640 FLUORIDATED WATER IS A CAUSE OF ALZHEIMERS DISEASEThe question addressed in this study was to understand why 0.5 ppm of aluminum fluoride in the drinking water of rats was associated with a larger increase in infections and mortality


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.dcnutrition.com/news/Detail.CFM?RecordNumber=608 http://www.dcnutrition.com/news/ Is Fluoride Really As Safe As You Are Told? Part 1 of 3Fluoride is added to the water supply of most American cities for the ostensible purpose of dental hygiene. The reader will be amazed to find out that such a thing is not only unlikely, but actually the reverse of the ongoing realityThe U.S. has been fluoridating drinking water for so many decades that we hardly think about it. Very few articles appear about fluoridation in newspapers and magazines any more. At least chlorine will evaporate from a glass of water if you let it sit for an hour or so. No such luck with fluoride. Even cooking, food processing, filtration, or digestion doesn't remove fluoride. Goes right up the food chain. Accumulates in fat cells.........that fluoride was not safe at all, but was actually a carcinogenic industrial waste? .......a toxic industrial waste could be passed off on the public as a nutrient with necessary health benefits, to the tune of $10 billion per year. Or more. http://www.dcnutrition.com/news/Detail.CFM?RecordNumber=609 Fluoride poisonings are most likely to kill children http://www.dcnutrition.com/news/Detail.CFM?RecordNumber=640 FLUORIDATED WATER IS A CAUSE OF ALZHEIMERS DISEASEThe question addressed in this study was to understand why 0.5 ppm of aluminum fluoride in the drinking water of rats was associated with a larger increase in infections and mortality


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

The above posts contain purely







information.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

The above posts contain purely







information.


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Hi Flux, You've found a new epithet of abuse (ie. phoney)Still no response to my question though.For the 11th. time. What is the precise toxicity of Fluoride?To make it quick and easy for you, here is a qoute you can use;"The American Clinical Toxicology of Commercial Products (5th. Edition) rates fluoride only slightly less toxic than arsenic, and more toxic than lead"All you need to do is say, "True", "False", or "They've got it wrong" Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Hi Flux, You've found a new epithet of abuse (ie. phoney)Still no response to my question though.For the 11th. time. What is the precise toxicity of Fluoride?To make it quick and easy for you, here is a qoute you can use;"The American Clinical Toxicology of Commercial Products (5th. Edition) rates fluoride only slightly less toxic than arsenic, and more toxic than lead"All you need to do is say, "True", "False", or "They've got it wrong" Len


----------



## Albion (Feb 14, 2001)

Illegitimus non carborundum.


----------



## Albion (Feb 14, 2001)

Illegitimus non carborundum.


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Floridian2Pease forgive me for not answering you before. (I probably got distracted by Fluxï¿½s catcalls from the sidelines. I wonï¿½t let that happen again)Here are 2 relevant papers I.P. Gupta. T.K. Das, A.K. Susheela, S. Dasarathy and R.K. Tandon. Alimentary tract and pancreas : Fluoride as possible etiological factor in non-ulcer dyspepsia. Journal of Gastroenterology & Hepatology, 7 : 355-359, 1992A.K. Susheela, Taposh K.Das. I.P. Gupta, R.K.Tandon, S.K. Kacker,P.Ghosh and R.C.Deka. Fluoride ingestion and its correlation with gastro-intestinal discomfort. Fluoride, 25 (1) : 5-22, 1992Also proof that me and my daughter are not unique: http://www.ibsnetwork.org.uk/GutReaction/G...ionArcLet01.htm Please remember the limitations inherent in the Scientific method.Experiments are specifically designed to focus on one phenomena.This means you will only find a link (eg between IBS and Fluoride) if you set out an experiment to look for it. You can only find links that you are looking for.The data is there (see above) but it would be nice to get more research done.Thatï¿½s one reason I have asked people to test this and report back.There is a natural tendency to count papers, instead of weighing the validity of an argument.(e.g. for the sake of argument, ï¿½20 papers say F hardens teeth, and 1 paper says F causes IBSï¿½ ï¿½.itï¿½s illogical to see this as a 20 to 1 vote for Fluoridation. They are different issues.)Sadly, because of Fluoridation, Administrators, Politicians etc. have little appetite to go out of their way to look for what may be very inconvenient, or embarrassing data.They feel that even looking at this would ï¿½confuse the publicï¿½.But perhaps they are scared the results would mean they would have some paddling backwards to do?What research will or wonï¿½t get done is largely a reflection of the concerns/preoccupation/questions of the people who decide these things.At any point in the history of Science (including now) we have a knowledge base skewed by past concerns, flooks, vested interests etc. It is an impure process, but the best weï¿½ve got.As to whether my experience is a rare, or a widespread one, letï¿½s find out?Thatï¿½s why I started this thread.So how about trying the exclusion protocol?ThanksLen


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Floridian2Pease forgive me for not answering you before. (I probably got distracted by Fluxï¿½s catcalls from the sidelines. I wonï¿½t let that happen again)Here are 2 relevant papers I.P. Gupta. T.K. Das, A.K. Susheela, S. Dasarathy and R.K. Tandon. Alimentary tract and pancreas : Fluoride as possible etiological factor in non-ulcer dyspepsia. Journal of Gastroenterology & Hepatology, 7 : 355-359, 1992A.K. Susheela, Taposh K.Das. I.P. Gupta, R.K.Tandon, S.K. Kacker,P.Ghosh and R.C.Deka. Fluoride ingestion and its correlation with gastro-intestinal discomfort. Fluoride, 25 (1) : 5-22, 1992Also proof that me and my daughter are not unique: http://www.ibsnetwork.org.uk/GutReaction/G...ionArcLet01.htm Please remember the limitations inherent in the Scientific method.Experiments are specifically designed to focus on one phenomena.This means you will only find a link (eg between IBS and Fluoride) if you set out an experiment to look for it. You can only find links that you are looking for.The data is there (see above) but it would be nice to get more research done.Thatï¿½s one reason I have asked people to test this and report back.There is a natural tendency to count papers, instead of weighing the validity of an argument.(e.g. for the sake of argument, ï¿½20 papers say F hardens teeth, and 1 paper says F causes IBSï¿½ ï¿½.itï¿½s illogical to see this as a 20 to 1 vote for Fluoridation. They are different issues.)Sadly, because of Fluoridation, Administrators, Politicians etc. have little appetite to go out of their way to look for what may be very inconvenient, or embarrassing data.They feel that even looking at this would ï¿½confuse the publicï¿½.But perhaps they are scared the results would mean they would have some paddling backwards to do?What research will or wonï¿½t get done is largely a reflection of the concerns/preoccupation/questions of the people who decide these things.At any point in the history of Science (including now) we have a knowledge base skewed by past concerns, flooks, vested interests etc. It is an impure process, but the best weï¿½ve got.As to whether my experience is a rare, or a widespread one, letï¿½s find out?Thatï¿½s why I started this thread.So how about trying the exclusion protocol?ThanksLen


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quotelease remember the limitations inherent in the Scientific method.Experiments are specifically designed to focus on one phenomena.This means you will only find a link (eg between IBS and Fluoride) if you set out an experiment to look for it. You can only find links that you are looking for.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quotelease remember the limitations inherent in the Scientific method.Experiments are specifically designed to focus on one phenomena.This means you will only find a link (eg between IBS and Fluoride) if you set out an experiment to look for it. You can only find links that you are looking for.


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

i agree with albion! lenharley,here is my testimony. i started drinking mainly distilled water about 3 1/2 years ago. although i would cook with fluoridated tap water. --and i still had all my original problems.a couple of months ago i started to soak my beans (my main food)in the distilled water, but i would still cook them in regular water (an improvement). as of 2 weeks ago i have completely eliminated all tap water except for the water that gets absorbed from the shower/bath. this can actually be more than most people think (absorbing water via soaking -- especially if the person is dehydrated.)i would have to say that fluoride is not my main enemy; however, your thread on the topic has reawakened me to the hazards of this toxic compound that is being force fed --- against our will -- by these bumbling fools (gov't officials).i am convinced that this compound ravages the body -- especially the enzyme system. i believe that all of us vary to a great extent in how much punishment our bodies can take before succumbing.i am going to take steps to completely eliminate both the chlorine and the toxic fluoride from even my bath water. this will not be easy, but i will leave no stone unturned when it comes to my health.thanks for your persistance on this issue.--and always keep in mind that flux is a very sick person (emotionally more so than physically).


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

i agree with albion! lenharley,here is my testimony. i started drinking mainly distilled water about 3 1/2 years ago. although i would cook with fluoridated tap water. --and i still had all my original problems.a couple of months ago i started to soak my beans (my main food)in the distilled water, but i would still cook them in regular water (an improvement). as of 2 weeks ago i have completely eliminated all tap water except for the water that gets absorbed from the shower/bath. this can actually be more than most people think (absorbing water via soaking -- especially if the person is dehydrated.)i would have to say that fluoride is not my main enemy; however, your thread on the topic has reawakened me to the hazards of this toxic compound that is being force fed --- against our will -- by these bumbling fools (gov't officials).i am convinced that this compound ravages the body -- especially the enzyme system. i believe that all of us vary to a great extent in how much punishment our bodies can take before succumbing.i am going to take steps to completely eliminate both the chlorine and the toxic fluoride from even my bath water. this will not be easy, but i will leave no stone unturned when it comes to my health.thanks for your persistance on this issue.--and always keep in mind that flux is a very sick person (emotionally more so than physically).


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Hello Flux and all,Still no answer to a simple question. (Toxicity of Fluoride)I repeat it for the 12th time?Thank you for the nice picture of Feynman. Iï¿½m confident you didnï¿½t mean to illustrate my point, but that does it nicely.Atomic research was not funded because it was ï¿½interestingï¿½ (nor because it might solve tummy-aches) but because there was a war to be won.This research has had myriads of spin-offs that we inherit (e.g. nuclear power) because of an historico-political accident (WW2).(I think it was the Philosopher Bertrand Russell who said that, if wars could have been won with solar power we would have solar-powered economies today). Funding, and emphasis, are channelled toward immediate, perceived, needs (eg winning a war). This produces a skewed take on reality and technological inheritances. We inherit the answers to past problems but also the rolling juggernaut of past perceptions and technologies that are hard to turn around. (eg Fluoride is nice?)This really isnï¿½t controversial Flux. Iï¿½m beginning to think you are being contradictory for some other motive?In the case of Fluoride, two needs were driving the post-war research1) to avoid having to clean up polluting industries.& (2) Being able to harden teeth (Pathologically???) to correct a #### diet.It is easy to fund research in such circumstances to prove the point you want to prove.For the other issues, that might prove obstructive to your designs, you just donï¿½t do the research.For the open-minded try this link: http://www.rvi.net/~fluoride/wrong.htm Please note that I have addressed certain issues and raised certain questions with you. You refuse to enter into dialogue. You persist in abstracting a sentence, or a clause, out of context for you to slap a ï¿½funny pictureï¿½ on. This is cheap, easy and infantile It does not belong in a "discussion" group or mutual help forumYou snipe, but you are careful not to produce a single contribution of your own for assessment. It certainly is not something that Feynman would have indulged in. Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Hello Flux and all,Still no answer to a simple question. (Toxicity of Fluoride)I repeat it for the 12th time?Thank you for the nice picture of Feynman. Iï¿½m confident you didnï¿½t mean to illustrate my point, but that does it nicely.Atomic research was not funded because it was ï¿½interestingï¿½ (nor because it might solve tummy-aches) but because there was a war to be won.This research has had myriads of spin-offs that we inherit (e.g. nuclear power) because of an historico-political accident (WW2).(I think it was the Philosopher Bertrand Russell who said that, if wars could have been won with solar power we would have solar-powered economies today). Funding, and emphasis, are channelled toward immediate, perceived, needs (eg winning a war). This produces a skewed take on reality and technological inheritances. We inherit the answers to past problems but also the rolling juggernaut of past perceptions and technologies that are hard to turn around. (eg Fluoride is nice?)This really isnï¿½t controversial Flux. Iï¿½m beginning to think you are being contradictory for some other motive?In the case of Fluoride, two needs were driving the post-war research1) to avoid having to clean up polluting industries.& (2) Being able to harden teeth (Pathologically???) to correct a #### diet.It is easy to fund research in such circumstances to prove the point you want to prove.For the other issues, that might prove obstructive to your designs, you just donï¿½t do the research.For the open-minded try this link: http://www.rvi.net/~fluoride/wrong.htm Please note that I have addressed certain issues and raised certain questions with you. You refuse to enter into dialogue. You persist in abstracting a sentence, or a clause, out of context for you to slap a ï¿½funny pictureï¿½ on. This is cheap, easy and infantile It does not belong in a "discussion" group or mutual help forumYou snipe, but you are careful not to produce a single contribution of your own for assessment. It certainly is not something that Feynman would have indulged in. Len


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:For the open-minded try this link: http://www.rvi.net/~fluoride/wrong.htm


Itï¿½s full of


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:For the open-minded try this link: http://www.rvi.net/~fluoride/wrong.htm


Itï¿½s full of


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Flux's latest,Yet another picture that just says "Rubbish".This is not discussion.You are just a parasite upon this discussion.You nip and bite, feeding off others contributions. But you are too cowardly to expose anything of yourself, lest it be subject to attack.Other people's qoutes, plus other people's pictures.In the service of Childish spite.Why don't you actually say something?Still not brave enough to respond on Fluoride's toxicity?Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Flux's latest,Yet another picture that just says "Rubbish".This is not discussion.You are just a parasite upon this discussion.You nip and bite, feeding off others contributions. But you are too cowardly to expose anything of yourself, lest it be subject to attack.Other people's qoutes, plus other people's pictures.In the service of Childish spite.Why don't you actually say something?Still not brave enough to respond on Fluoride's toxicity?Len


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

len this is a thread from another UK member on water. it seems that flux is the only person out of about 20 who responded who thinks that water will not affect anything. http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php...=1;t=035732;p=2 it makes you wonder ...... are we all crazy and this person has all the answers. i already know the answer to that one.


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

len this is a thread from another UK member on water. it seems that flux is the only person out of about 20 who responded who thinks that water will not affect anything. http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php...=1;t=035732;p=2 it makes you wonder ...... are we all crazy and this person has all the answers. i already know the answer to that one.


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/shamesfluoride.htm


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/shamesfluoride.htm


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Fluoride not good. http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/shamesfluoride.htm http://www.rvi.net/~fluoride/wrong.htm http://www.dcnutrition.com/news/Detail.CFM?RecordNumber=609 http://www.dcnutrition.com/news/Detail.CFM?RecordNumber=640 http://www.dcnutrition.com/news/Detail.CFM?RecordNumber=608 http://www.nofluoride.com/quotes.htm http://homepage.tinet.ie/~fluoridefree/cam...al-Sept2000.htm http://homepage.tinet.ie/~fluoridefree/cam..._update/ibs.htm http://groups.yahoo.com/group/waterforum/message/9019 http://www.mercola.com/2000/sept/10/green_...ide_thyroid.htm http://bruha.com/pfpc/html/picture_i.html http://education.vsnl.com/fluorosis/publication.html http://education.vsnl.com/fluorosis/animal.html http://64.177.90.157/science/index.html http://www.mercola.com/article/links/fluoride_links.htm http://www.npwa.freeserve.co.uk http://www.glenwalker.net http://www.fluoride.org.uk http://www.fluoridefree.com http://www.dartmouth.edu/~rmasters/AHABS/welcome.htm http://www.fluoridealert.org http://www.orgsites.com/ny/nyscof http://www.enn.com/direct/display-by-affiliate.asp?id=1765 http://www.fluoridation.com http://www.bruha.com/fluoride http://www.garynull.com/issues/Fluoride/Fl...eActionFile.htm http://www.citizens.org/Food_water_safety/...on/fluoride.htm


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Fluoride not good. http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/shamesfluoride.htm http://www.rvi.net/~fluoride/wrong.htm http://www.dcnutrition.com/news/Detail.CFM?RecordNumber=609 http://www.dcnutrition.com/news/Detail.CFM?RecordNumber=640 http://www.dcnutrition.com/news/Detail.CFM?RecordNumber=608 http://www.nofluoride.com/quotes.htm http://homepage.tinet.ie/~fluoridefree/cam...al-Sept2000.htm http://homepage.tinet.ie/~fluoridefree/cam..._update/ibs.htm http://groups.yahoo.com/group/waterforum/message/9019 http://www.mercola.com/2000/sept/10/green_...ide_thyroid.htm http://bruha.com/pfpc/html/picture_i.html http://education.vsnl.com/fluorosis/publication.html http://education.vsnl.com/fluorosis/animal.html http://64.177.90.157/science/index.html http://www.mercola.com/article/links/fluoride_links.htm http://www.npwa.freeserve.co.uk http://www.glenwalker.net http://www.fluoride.org.uk http://www.fluoridefree.com http://www.dartmouth.edu/~rmasters/AHABS/welcome.htm http://www.fluoridealert.org http://www.orgsites.com/ny/nyscof http://www.enn.com/direct/display-by-affiliate.asp?id=1765 http://www.fluoridation.com http://www.bruha.com/fluoride http://www.garynull.com/issues/Fluoride/Fl...eActionFile.htm http://www.citizens.org/Food_water_safety/...on/fluoride.htm


----------



## drdahlman (Nov 6, 2000)

It makes me so happy to see the same old cast of characters attacking someone else. Now I know I'm not so special!LenHarley, I feel for you. These attacks on your story will be endless and it's probably best to not respond because you'll never get anywhere. Here's my take on all this. What the usual cast of characters doesn't realize is that there isn't one cause for ANY symptoms associated with the gastro-intestinal system, in other words, IBS. There are many causes. It is traditional medicine's greatest failure to think that they can find the same cause in all people.Flouride was LenHarleys cause. For some odd reason, he has this extreme sensitivity to it and when he eliminated it from his world, the symptoms went away. It may not work for many other people.The biggest "take away" from his story is that flouride is poison and should be avoided and it MIGHT contribute to your symptoms. Try and see, a short term test will tell. But you should still avoid flouride. There's far too much evidence that it can be harmful.Case in point: Mother brings in her 13 year old who has been diagnosed with ADD/ADHD. This kid was rude in my office, interupted and was disrespectful to his mother. And he got straight A's. In talking with Mom about his history we discovered that when he was a baby, a well intentioned pediatrician put the baby on flouride pills because they lived in a rural community where the water wasn't treated with it. When he got older, he was put on a special multi vitamin that also contained large amounts of flouride. This didn't seem right and I was thinking that this was the equivalent to a poisoning. We decided that we would try to eliminate flouride from his world and begin a detox program to assist the elimination from his body.One month later, they returned to my office and there was a different child in front of me. Mom was amazed...they even switched to a non flouride toothpaste. The boy sat patiently while we discussed his progress and even did some homework. Totally different child.Now, I would never say that all ADD/ADHD is caused by flouride, but it certainly played a major role in this case. Avoid it at all costs and see if your health changes.


----------



## drdahlman (Nov 6, 2000)

It makes me so happy to see the same old cast of characters attacking someone else. Now I know I'm not so special!LenHarley, I feel for you. These attacks on your story will be endless and it's probably best to not respond because you'll never get anywhere. Here's my take on all this. What the usual cast of characters doesn't realize is that there isn't one cause for ANY symptoms associated with the gastro-intestinal system, in other words, IBS. There are many causes. It is traditional medicine's greatest failure to think that they can find the same cause in all people.Flouride was LenHarleys cause. For some odd reason, he has this extreme sensitivity to it and when he eliminated it from his world, the symptoms went away. It may not work for many other people.The biggest "take away" from his story is that flouride is poison and should be avoided and it MIGHT contribute to your symptoms. Try and see, a short term test will tell. But you should still avoid flouride. There's far too much evidence that it can be harmful.Case in point: Mother brings in her 13 year old who has been diagnosed with ADD/ADHD. This kid was rude in my office, interupted and was disrespectful to his mother. And he got straight A's. In talking with Mom about his history we discovered that when he was a baby, a well intentioned pediatrician put the baby on flouride pills because they lived in a rural community where the water wasn't treated with it. When he got older, he was put on a special multi vitamin that also contained large amounts of flouride. This didn't seem right and I was thinking that this was the equivalent to a poisoning. We decided that we would try to eliminate flouride from his world and begin a detox program to assist the elimination from his body.One month later, they returned to my office and there was a different child in front of me. Mom was amazed...they even switched to a non flouride toothpaste. The boy sat patiently while we discussed his progress and even did some homework. Totally different child.Now, I would never say that all ADD/ADHD is caused by flouride, but it certainly played a major role in this case. Avoid it at all costs and see if your health changes.


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

dr d i could not agree more with what you wrote.there are many causes for our troubles. some people have very odd responses to a number of chemicals even in microscopically small amounts -- sulfites are an example.


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

dr d i could not agree more with what you wrote.there are many causes for our troubles. some people have very odd responses to a number of chemicals even in microscopically small amounts -- sulfites are an example.


----------



## Gin Gin (Jan 25, 2004)

Hi all.I lurk here from time to time. This thread is really interesting. I think it's worth a try, but I have one question:Is all bottled water free of flouride, or are there specific brands to look for?


----------



## Gin Gin (Jan 25, 2004)

Hi all.I lurk here from time to time. This thread is really interesting. I think it's worth a try, but I have one question:Is all bottled water free of flouride, or are there specific brands to look for?


----------



## drdahlman (Nov 6, 2000)

Most bottled water is free of flouride. There could be exceptions because of very little regulation. You can be sure if it says reverse osmosis or distilled, but most major brands don't have it added.


----------



## drdahlman (Nov 6, 2000)

Most bottled water is free of flouride. There could be exceptions because of very little regulation. You can be sure if it says reverse osmosis or distilled, but most major brands don't have it added.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Flouride was LenHarleys cause.


I didn't believe his story, nor do I believe yours...


> quote:Case in point: Mother brings in her 13 year old who has been diagnosed with ADD/ADHD. This kid was rude in my office, interupted and was disrespectful to his mother. And he got straight A's. In talking with Mom about his history we discovered that when he was a baby, a well intentioned pediatrician put the baby on flouride pills because they lived in a rural community where the water wasn't treated with it. When he got older, he was put on a special multi vitamin that also contained large amounts of flouride. This didn't seem right and I was thinking that this was the equivalent to a poisoning. We decided that we would try to eliminate flouride from his world and begin a detox program to assist the elimination from his body.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Flouride was LenHarleys cause.


I didn't believe his story, nor do I believe yours...


> quote:Case in point: Mother brings in her 13 year old who has been diagnosed with ADD/ADHD. This kid was rude in my office, interupted and was disrespectful to his mother. And he got straight A's. In talking with Mom about his history we discovered that when he was a baby, a well intentioned pediatrician put the baby on flouride pills because they lived in a rural community where the water wasn't treated with it. When he got older, he was put on a special multi vitamin that also contained large amounts of flouride. This didn't seem right and I was thinking that this was the equivalent to a poisoning. We decided that we would try to eliminate flouride from his world and begin a detox program to assist the elimination from his body.


----------



## vere76 (Jul 14, 2002)

has anyone put this for 14 days or so ?


----------



## vere76 (Jul 14, 2002)

has anyone put this for 14 days or so ?


----------



## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

i tried natural toothpaste the other day for one month and it dosen't seem to be effective as fluoride toothpastes.fluoride is so corrosive that mouth bacteria pass a bad time.I would like to find a natural toothpast also effective that fluoride for healthy shining smile.Fluoride is so corossive for the tongue and mucosa(maybe the bowel mucosa too).


----------



## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

i tried natural toothpaste the other day for one month and it dosen't seem to be effective as fluoride toothpastes.fluoride is so corrosive that mouth bacteria pass a bad time.I would like to find a natural toothpast also effective that fluoride for healthy shining smile.Fluoride is so corossive for the tongue and mucosa(maybe the bowel mucosa too).


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

yes, fluoride is not good. poison.


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

yes, fluoride is not good. poison.


----------



## AlphaMale (Jan 21, 2004)

LenHarleyI do not understand why you have to reply to every post from this mentaly retarded flux. Most people do not take him serious. He do not worth a reply.I believe your story.


----------



## AlphaMale (Jan 21, 2004)

LenHarleyI do not understand why you have to reply to every post from this mentaly retarded flux. Most people do not take him serious. He do not worth a reply.I believe your story.


----------



## daisysp (Jan 13, 2004)

I must say also, why do you reply to Flux ? You just give him fuel to continue. IF we all ignore him maybe he will get a life and go away.I have to ask !!! I don't use Flouride toothpaste, never have as I was raised on all natural everything; my kids have had reactions from it when they've used it outside the house, yet again, nothing at home. I have a very expensive water cleanser so I get no flouride, I dont' use non-stop cookwear (cast iron) and don't like tea so don't drink it. Where the heck would I be getting my flouride from ? The only thing I can relate to is I take thyroid supplments daily, they do contain some kelp, yet I have to take this or I get fat......quickly ! What do you suggest ?? I have had IBS for 7 yrs, got it from a severe case of Ecoli/Blasitis, from eating tainted beef. I hate it !! IT ruins my day every day. I eat so carefully and usually take appetite suppresents so I dont' get hungry cause it feels better to just not eat. I cannot lose this weight and I workout about 1 1/2 hrs a day religiously. Got any suggestions ?? Your info on flouride will really help my ongoing arguement with my boyfriend though about the dangers of flouride. ha ha


----------



## daisysp (Jan 13, 2004)

I must say also, why do you reply to Flux ? You just give him fuel to continue. IF we all ignore him maybe he will get a life and go away.I have to ask !!! I don't use Flouride toothpaste, never have as I was raised on all natural everything; my kids have had reactions from it when they've used it outside the house, yet again, nothing at home. I have a very expensive water cleanser so I get no flouride, I dont' use non-stop cookwear (cast iron) and don't like tea so don't drink it. Where the heck would I be getting my flouride from ? The only thing I can relate to is I take thyroid supplments daily, they do contain some kelp, yet I have to take this or I get fat......quickly ! What do you suggest ?? I have had IBS for 7 yrs, got it from a severe case of Ecoli/Blasitis, from eating tainted beef. I hate it !! IT ruins my day every day. I eat so carefully and usually take appetite suppresents so I dont' get hungry cause it feels better to just not eat. I cannot lose this weight and I workout about 1 1/2 hrs a day religiously. Got any suggestions ?? Your info on flouride will really help my ongoing arguement with my boyfriend though about the dangers of flouride. ha ha


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Fluoride is so corossive for the tongue and mucosa(maybe the bowel mucosa too)





> quote:yes, fluoride is not good. poison.





> quote: about the dangers of flouride












> quote:don't use Flouride toothpaste, never have as I was raised on all natural everything;


Fluoride is natural.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Fluoride is so corossive for the tongue and mucosa(maybe the bowel mucosa too)





> quote:yes, fluoride is not good. poison.





> quote: about the dangers of flouride












> quote:don't use Flouride toothpaste, never have as I was raised on all natural everything;


Fluoride is natural.


----------



## drdahlman (Nov 6, 2000)

My Dearest Flux, What don't you believe about my story? I have no need to contribute to this thread, but you think I made the story up just to participate? I want to contribute, not just participate like you do. It's not enough for any of us that you simply don't believe or dogmatically say we are wrong. If flouride isn't a poison, please go get a glass of pure flouride mixed in water and take a drink and let us know what happens. Matter of fact, just do a third of a glass and let us know.


----------



## drdahlman (Nov 6, 2000)

My Dearest Flux, What don't you believe about my story? I have no need to contribute to this thread, but you think I made the story up just to participate? I want to contribute, not just participate like you do. It's not enough for any of us that you simply don't believe or dogmatically say we are wrong. If flouride isn't a poison, please go get a glass of pure flouride mixed in water and take a drink and let us know what happens. Matter of fact, just do a third of a glass and let us know.


----------



## HipJan (Apr 9, 1999)

I am surprised to still find this conversation going on. I remember it from the MP a couple months ago.I guess the next time I have a question about what is absolutely safe and what is not safe to imbibe, I will ask flux.







I tend to think flux sees things more in terms of black and white than in grays. Right?Thanks again for the interesting information. Thanks for hanging in there.


----------



## HipJan (Apr 9, 1999)

I am surprised to still find this conversation going on. I remember it from the MP a couple months ago.I guess the next time I have a question about what is absolutely safe and what is not safe to imbibe, I will ask flux.







I tend to think flux sees things more in terms of black and white than in grays. Right?Thanks again for the interesting information. Thanks for hanging in there.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: What don't you believe about my story?


All of it.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: What don't you believe about my story?


All of it.


----------



## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

i find this whole thread funny. flux just picks on one thing out of a mile long post and has a graphic for it, or a thumbs down or this last interchange. i must admit i don't like it when it happens to me. Don't mind me!


----------



## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

i find this whole thread funny. flux just picks on one thing out of a mile long post and has a graphic for it, or a thumbs down or this last interchange. i must admit i don't like it when it happens to me. Don't mind me!


----------



## christywisty (Mar 12, 2002)

Definitely something worth investigating -- I was diagnosed with dental fluorosis when I was in elementary school, and as you can see in my profile, I've picked up a few other things along the way ...


----------



## christywisty (Mar 12, 2002)

Definitely something worth investigating -- I was diagnosed with dental fluorosis when I was in elementary school, and as you can see in my profile, I've picked up a few other things along the way ...


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Hi,Iï¿½ve taken some kind contributors advice, and not responded to Flux latelyBut I would like to say thank you to BeautyLover and Daisysp. I was pretty new to this internet-posting idea and I had expected a mutually-supportive and mutually-respecting community. I must admit I found Fluxï¿½s responses not just unfair but hurtful; now I see he is the exception and I was too ready to waste my energy on someone whose only agenda is mischief.I have decided he is placing his posts upside-downï¿½His pompous signature, which hints at pseudo-medical authority, should be at the top and the picture of Bovine-excrement, Hot-air etc. underneath it!--------------------------------------------------Some contributors believe my experience, but see it as a highly unusual sensitivity; others seem to believe I am saying the only cause of IBS is Fluoride.I have never claimed that the bundle of gastric irritation symptoms we call IBS is ALWAYS caused by Fluoride.But (1) I can prove I am not unique http://www.ibsnetwork.org.uk/GutReaction/G...ionArcLet01.htm (2)I can also prove that reputable scientific studies show Fluoride causes IBS symptoms ...................ï¿½It is concluded that in an endemic zone, where the inhabitants are consuming water of high fluoride content, the occurrence of gastrointestinal complaints - viz., loss of appetite, nausea, abdominal pain, flatulence, constipation and intermittent diarrhoea - is one of the early warning signs of fluoride toxicity and fluorosis. When water with negligible amounts of fluoride (safe water) is provided, the complaints disappear within a fortnightï¿½ Susheela AK, et al. (1993). Prevalence of endemic fluorosis with gastro-intestinal manifestations in people living in some North-Indian villages. Fluoride 26(2): 97-104. http://www.slweb.org/susheela-1993.html --------------------------------------------------After 23 years of Fluoridation, the Netherlands outlawed it in 1976. This followed the Moolenberg/Grimbergen double-blind trials, using water Fluoridated to the usual level of 1ppm. These trials showed many adverse reactions."The main symptoms exhibited by the patients were gastro-intestinal, stomatitis, joint pains, polydipsia, headaches, visual disturbances, muscular weakness, and extreme tiredness. A definite relationship between the symptoms and fluoride in water was clearly established." "Fluoride" (7:146-152, July, 1974) http://www.holisticmed.com/fluoride/acute.htm Moolenberg told me personally ï¿½we won too easilyï¿½ï¿½. He expected these trials to be repeated all over the world. But, Holland was safe, and the Anglo-Saxon world just ignored the work. There are now 7 countries that have reversed Fluoridation.-------------------------------------------------George L Walbott did clinical studies and double-blind trialsï¿½During the past two decades I have had experience with more than 400 similar cases. At least twenty were hospitalized for detailed studies. In others, laboratory and double blind tests have been utilized in my clinic. The salient symptoms have been sharp pains in the stomach area associated with nausea, spasticity of the bowels (ileitis, colitis), polydipsia and polyuria, arthritic pains, especially in the lower spine, migraine-like headaches and painful paresthesia in arms and legs with loss of muscular powerï¿½. ï¿½Fluorideï¿½ 31(1) 1998 pp13-20 http://www.fluoride-journal.com/98-31-1/31113-20.htm -------------------------------------------------Also clear intestinal changes, caused by Fluoride, were seen in experiments with mice in 1995 (4)Sondhi H, et al. (1995). Intestinal effects of sodium fluoride in Swiss Albino mice. Fluoride 28: 21-24. http://www.slweb.org/bibliography.html#gastro --------------------------------------------------(3) I can prove that Fluoride is a protoplasmic, mutagenic poison,ï¿½.and ï¿½an enzyme poison in the same class as cyanide, oxalate, or azide, which means that it is capable of a very wide variety of harmful effects, even at low doses.ï¿½ Dr. Patrick BS. MA. PhD. Senior Professor and Chairman of the Department of Chemistry, Mary Baldwin College, Stauton, Virginia, (1967 to date). http://www.nofluoride.com/eight.htm (4)I can offer you this assessment of my account from ALBERT W. BURGSTAHLER, Ph.D. (Organic Chemistry and Environmental Fluoride), Professor of Chemistry at the University of Kansas, and Editor of ï¿½Fluorideï¿½ the quarterly magazine for scientific researches concerning Fluoride.ï¿½Dear Mr. Harley, Extensive references to gastric distress caused by fluoride can be found in clinical reports published by George L. Waldbott, MD, that are listed with all his other fluoride research publications in the February 1998 issue of the journal Fluoride. Many are also cited in the book Fluoridation: The Great Dilemma (Coronado Press, Lawrence, Kansas, 1978). Earlier reports are given in Kaj Roholm's Fluorine Intoxication published in 1937. A number of editorials on this subject with references appeared over the years in Fluoride. I am sorry that I do not have the time or resources to assemble and send you copies of these published items. From reading your account, I have to conclude that your case is very well authenticated. Sincerely, Albert W. BurgstahlerEditor, Fluorideï¿½(5)Whether I am one of a tiny subset, or the tip of an iceberg, remains to be seen.Is Fluoride a minor factor in IBS; or is it another Helicobacter-Pylori/Stomach-ulcer story?Research is needed and, as far as I know, it is not being done. So how about trying it.I repeat the Fluoride exclusion protocol here:Suggested Fluoride Exclusion ProtocolIf you, or someone you know has IBS. If you/they want to see if Fluoride is causing it, try giving up tea, fluoride dental products, kelp, non-stick coated cookware, and fluoridated water. (Use bottled, and donï¿½t soak in the bath, in Fluoridated areas) Consult your doctor about Fluoride-containing medicines such as Prozac. Perhaps you will be totally cured as I was. You might also buy a bottle of tamarind paste/concentrate from an Indian grocers. Tamarind helps eliminates fluoride from the body. Indeed the recent trend to replace tamarind with tomatoes in cooking has been blamed for the increase of fluorosis in India.(The Tamarind effect has good science studies to back it up)Thanks Len ï¿½The only nations that I know of that have advance standards of public health and permit fluoridation are the U.S., Great Britain, and a few of the British Dominions. The reason seems to be that dentists campaigned vigorously in the English-speaking countries very early and got fluoridation adopted because of its claimed dental benefits. But the opposition of fluoridation is not concerned with dental effects nearly so much as whole body toxicity. Dentists are not trained in toxicology or enzyme biochemistry and are in no position to assess the public health hazards of fluoridation. In all of the countries that have rejected fluoridation it is conspicuous that biochemists, physiologists, pharmacologists, and enzymologists have been consulted and listened toï¿½. It is a scientific disgrace that a well organized lobby of the American Dental Association ever managed to stampede American legislators into ignoring the highly technical but very cogent objection to fluoridations." (Dr. Patrick. Senior Professor and Chairman of the Department of Chemistry, Mary Baldwin College, Stauton, Virginia, 1967 to date.) (Italics are mine)


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Hi,Iï¿½ve taken some kind contributors advice, and not responded to Flux latelyBut I would like to say thank you to BeautyLover and Daisysp. I was pretty new to this internet-posting idea and I had expected a mutually-supportive and mutually-respecting community. I must admit I found Fluxï¿½s responses not just unfair but hurtful; now I see he is the exception and I was too ready to waste my energy on someone whose only agenda is mischief.I have decided he is placing his posts upside-downï¿½His pompous signature, which hints at pseudo-medical authority, should be at the top and the picture of Bovine-excrement, Hot-air etc. underneath it!--------------------------------------------------Some contributors believe my experience, but see it as a highly unusual sensitivity; others seem to believe I am saying the only cause of IBS is Fluoride.I have never claimed that the bundle of gastric irritation symptoms we call IBS is ALWAYS caused by Fluoride.But (1) I can prove I am not unique http://www.ibsnetwork.org.uk/GutReaction/G...ionArcLet01.htm (2)I can also prove that reputable scientific studies show Fluoride causes IBS symptoms ...................ï¿½It is concluded that in an endemic zone, where the inhabitants are consuming water of high fluoride content, the occurrence of gastrointestinal complaints - viz., loss of appetite, nausea, abdominal pain, flatulence, constipation and intermittent diarrhoea - is one of the early warning signs of fluoride toxicity and fluorosis. When water with negligible amounts of fluoride (safe water) is provided, the complaints disappear within a fortnightï¿½ Susheela AK, et al. (1993). Prevalence of endemic fluorosis with gastro-intestinal manifestations in people living in some North-Indian villages. Fluoride 26(2): 97-104. http://www.slweb.org/susheela-1993.html --------------------------------------------------After 23 years of Fluoridation, the Netherlands outlawed it in 1976. This followed the Moolenberg/Grimbergen double-blind trials, using water Fluoridated to the usual level of 1ppm. These trials showed many adverse reactions."The main symptoms exhibited by the patients were gastro-intestinal, stomatitis, joint pains, polydipsia, headaches, visual disturbances, muscular weakness, and extreme tiredness. A definite relationship between the symptoms and fluoride in water was clearly established." "Fluoride" (7:146-152, July, 1974) http://www.holisticmed.com/fluoride/acute.htm Moolenberg told me personally ï¿½we won too easilyï¿½ï¿½. He expected these trials to be repeated all over the world. But, Holland was safe, and the Anglo-Saxon world just ignored the work. There are now 7 countries that have reversed Fluoridation.-------------------------------------------------George L Walbott did clinical studies and double-blind trialsï¿½During the past two decades I have had experience with more than 400 similar cases. At least twenty were hospitalized for detailed studies. In others, laboratory and double blind tests have been utilized in my clinic. The salient symptoms have been sharp pains in the stomach area associated with nausea, spasticity of the bowels (ileitis, colitis), polydipsia and polyuria, arthritic pains, especially in the lower spine, migraine-like headaches and painful paresthesia in arms and legs with loss of muscular powerï¿½. ï¿½Fluorideï¿½ 31(1) 1998 pp13-20 http://www.fluoride-journal.com/98-31-1/31113-20.htm -------------------------------------------------Also clear intestinal changes, caused by Fluoride, were seen in experiments with mice in 1995 (4)Sondhi H, et al. (1995). Intestinal effects of sodium fluoride in Swiss Albino mice. Fluoride 28: 21-24. http://www.slweb.org/bibliography.html#gastro --------------------------------------------------(3) I can prove that Fluoride is a protoplasmic, mutagenic poison,ï¿½.and ï¿½an enzyme poison in the same class as cyanide, oxalate, or azide, which means that it is capable of a very wide variety of harmful effects, even at low doses.ï¿½ Dr. Patrick BS. MA. PhD. Senior Professor and Chairman of the Department of Chemistry, Mary Baldwin College, Stauton, Virginia, (1967 to date). http://www.nofluoride.com/eight.htm (4)I can offer you this assessment of my account from ALBERT W. BURGSTAHLER, Ph.D. (Organic Chemistry and Environmental Fluoride), Professor of Chemistry at the University of Kansas, and Editor of ï¿½Fluorideï¿½ the quarterly magazine for scientific researches concerning Fluoride.ï¿½Dear Mr. Harley, Extensive references to gastric distress caused by fluoride can be found in clinical reports published by George L. Waldbott, MD, that are listed with all his other fluoride research publications in the February 1998 issue of the journal Fluoride. Many are also cited in the book Fluoridation: The Great Dilemma (Coronado Press, Lawrence, Kansas, 1978). Earlier reports are given in Kaj Roholm's Fluorine Intoxication published in 1937. A number of editorials on this subject with references appeared over the years in Fluoride. I am sorry that I do not have the time or resources to assemble and send you copies of these published items. From reading your account, I have to conclude that your case is very well authenticated. Sincerely, Albert W. BurgstahlerEditor, Fluorideï¿½(5)Whether I am one of a tiny subset, or the tip of an iceberg, remains to be seen.Is Fluoride a minor factor in IBS; or is it another Helicobacter-Pylori/Stomach-ulcer story?Research is needed and, as far as I know, it is not being done. So how about trying it.I repeat the Fluoride exclusion protocol here:Suggested Fluoride Exclusion ProtocolIf you, or someone you know has IBS. If you/they want to see if Fluoride is causing it, try giving up tea, fluoride dental products, kelp, non-stick coated cookware, and fluoridated water. (Use bottled, and donï¿½t soak in the bath, in Fluoridated areas) Consult your doctor about Fluoride-containing medicines such as Prozac. Perhaps you will be totally cured as I was. You might also buy a bottle of tamarind paste/concentrate from an Indian grocers. Tamarind helps eliminates fluoride from the body. Indeed the recent trend to replace tamarind with tomatoes in cooking has been blamed for the increase of fluorosis in India.(The Tamarind effect has good science studies to back it up)Thanks Len ï¿½The only nations that I know of that have advance standards of public health and permit fluoridation are the U.S., Great Britain, and a few of the British Dominions. The reason seems to be that dentists campaigned vigorously in the English-speaking countries very early and got fluoridation adopted because of its claimed dental benefits. But the opposition of fluoridation is not concerned with dental effects nearly so much as whole body toxicity. Dentists are not trained in toxicology or enzyme biochemistry and are in no position to assess the public health hazards of fluoridation. In all of the countries that have rejected fluoridation it is conspicuous that biochemists, physiologists, pharmacologists, and enzymologists have been consulted and listened toï¿½. It is a scientific disgrace that a well organized lobby of the American Dental Association ever managed to stampede American legislators into ignoring the highly technical but very cogent objection to fluoridations." (Dr. Patrick. Senior Professor and Chairman of the Department of Chemistry, Mary Baldwin College, Stauton, Virginia, 1967 to date.) (Italics are mine)


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

All that when a simple picture will do?


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

All that when a simple picture will do?


----------



## drdahlman (Nov 6, 2000)

That's where you're mistaken, Flux. The pictures never do. They are not enough, nor is your response to my question. It all just makes you appear foolish. You just keep saying no to everything. You have no credibility, no credentials and no experience in diagnosing or treating any patients at all. We all think your silly. And that's being polite.


----------



## drdahlman (Nov 6, 2000)

That's where you're mistaken, Flux. The pictures never do. They are not enough, nor is your response to my question. It all just makes you appear foolish. You just keep saying no to everything. You have no credibility, no credentials and no experience in diagnosing or treating any patients at all. We all think your silly. And that's being polite.


----------



## drdahlman (Nov 6, 2000)

Just read your "signature" at the bottom of your posts. Do you know that you have an error in using proper tense? Also would you please name the sources that you have access to that we or I do not?


----------



## drdahlman (Nov 6, 2000)

Just read your "signature" at the bottom of your posts. Do you know that you have an error in using proper tense? Also would you please name the sources that you have access to that we or I do not?


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

oh! -- look what i found.


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

oh! -- look what i found.


----------



## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Almost off topic but i just arrive from the dentist office and i have been shoot with Lidocaine.I think it make IBS worst as well.:-oC-worst.We decide to delay my big Cerek du to my fear of the Cerek sensitivity.I have a real bad time with Mutant since many years.Lidocaine alone hurts the back and the bowel.


----------



## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Almost off topic but i just arrive from the dentist office and i have been shoot with Lidocaine.I think it make IBS worst as well.:-oC-worst.We decide to delay my big Cerek du to my fear of the Cerek sensitivity.I have a real bad time with Mutant since many years.Lidocaine alone hurts the back and the bowel.


----------



## gutsgonewild (Jun 27, 2004)

Interesting post!







Thanks for the bumping this thread.


----------



## gutsgonewild (Jun 27, 2004)

Interesting post!







Thanks for the bumping this thread.


----------



## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Quote:Well every photo I've seen of the people of England they need fluoride real bad.TimEspecially Bruce Dickenson.


----------



## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Quote:Well every photo I've seen of the people of England they need fluoride real bad.TimEspecially Bruce Dickenson.


----------



## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Yeah Bruce have everything for him but look his teeth







Sorry to bump that Flux.


----------



## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Yeah Bruce have everything for him but look his teeth







Sorry to bump that Flux.


----------



## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Lenharley,Which toothpaste do you recommand?Fluoride works well to figth the mouth bacterias.


----------



## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Lenharley,Which toothpaste do you recommand?Fluoride works well to figth the mouth bacterias.


----------



## kschultz (Jul 8, 2004)

THE TRUTH ABOUT THE DRINKING WATER Our drinking water today, far from being pure, contains some two hundred deadly commercial chemicals. Add to that bacteria, viruses, inorganic minerals (making the water hard) and you have a chemical cocktail that is unsuitable (if not deadly) for human consumption. John Archer in his book 'THE WATER YOU DRINK, HOW SAFE IS IT ?' refers to an estimate of 60,000 tonnes of fifty different chemicals being deliberately added annually to Australia's water. Some of these are: ... sodium fluoride: this is not a water treatment and was initially added as a supplement to 'assumingly' prevent tooth decay5 in children. Its toxicity is high enough that in larger concentrations can be used as a pesticide and rat killer. In humans it can be damaging to the heart, lungs, liver, cause genetic mutations and have long term negative effects on enzyme production and the efficiency of the immune system. In the medical encyclopedia and dictionary by Miller-Keane, under fluoridation it refers that slight excesses of fluoride are poisonous and it can cause dental fluorosis (mottled discolouration of teeth) and when you look up further down under fluorosis, you can see clearly the irony of the system an enamel hypoplasia resulting from prolonged ingestion of drinking water containing high levels of fluoride". Tests carried out in Victoria in 1976 by the State Water Supply Commission indicated that fluoride is involved in the corrosion of the copper pipes, which causes more poisons leaching into the water. Copper at certain concentrations effects the uptake of essential zinc in the body and can bring on stomach pain, nausea and diarrhoea. Newer office blocks and high stories buildings are more risky, as taps are not regularly used, leaving fluorinated water standing in the copper pipes for longer periods of times, consequently allowing corrosion. As the debate about the safety of fluoride continuous, countries such as Switzerland, Belgium, Holland, Germany and Sweden have terminated its use due to its potential health hazard.Also details the dangerous effects of chlorine, giardia and cryptosporidium, aluminium sulphate, lead, nitrates, ...The list goes on ... sodium sillicofluoride slurry, sulphuric acid, sodium hypochlorite solution, calcium oxide, silt, rust, algae, debris, larvae, asbestos (mostly from corroding cement pipe lines), pesticides, herbicides, fertilisers (from agricultural run offs), moulds, fungi, industrial waste, toxic metals, amoebas, clay and silica have all found their way into the water. As if this is not enough, chemical reactions of the different constituents in our drinking chemical and sewage cocktail make things even worse." http://www.laleva.cc/environment/water.html Scary.


----------



## kschultz (Jul 8, 2004)

THE TRUTH ABOUT THE DRINKING WATER Our drinking water today, far from being pure, contains some two hundred deadly commercial chemicals. Add to that bacteria, viruses, inorganic minerals (making the water hard) and you have a chemical cocktail that is unsuitable (if not deadly) for human consumption. John Archer in his book 'THE WATER YOU DRINK, HOW SAFE IS IT ?' refers to an estimate of 60,000 tonnes of fifty different chemicals being deliberately added annually to Australia's water. Some of these are: ... sodium fluoride: this is not a water treatment and was initially added as a supplement to 'assumingly' prevent tooth decay5 in children. Its toxicity is high enough that in larger concentrations can be used as a pesticide and rat killer. In humans it can be damaging to the heart, lungs, liver, cause genetic mutations and have long term negative effects on enzyme production and the efficiency of the immune system. In the medical encyclopedia and dictionary by Miller-Keane, under fluoridation it refers that slight excesses of fluoride are poisonous and it can cause dental fluorosis (mottled discolouration of teeth) and when you look up further down under fluorosis, you can see clearly the irony of the system an enamel hypoplasia resulting from prolonged ingestion of drinking water containing high levels of fluoride". Tests carried out in Victoria in 1976 by the State Water Supply Commission indicated that fluoride is involved in the corrosion of the copper pipes, which causes more poisons leaching into the water. Copper at certain concentrations effects the uptake of essential zinc in the body and can bring on stomach pain, nausea and diarrhoea. Newer office blocks and high stories buildings are more risky, as taps are not regularly used, leaving fluorinated water standing in the copper pipes for longer periods of times, consequently allowing corrosion. As the debate about the safety of fluoride continuous, countries such as Switzerland, Belgium, Holland, Germany and Sweden have terminated its use due to its potential health hazard.Also details the dangerous effects of chlorine, giardia and cryptosporidium, aluminium sulphate, lead, nitrates, ...The list goes on ... sodium sillicofluoride slurry, sulphuric acid, sodium hypochlorite solution, calcium oxide, silt, rust, algae, debris, larvae, asbestos (mostly from corroding cement pipe lines), pesticides, herbicides, fertilisers (from agricultural run offs), moulds, fungi, industrial waste, toxic metals, amoebas, clay and silica have all found their way into the water. As if this is not enough, chemical reactions of the different constituents in our drinking chemical and sewage cocktail make things even worse." http://www.laleva.cc/environment/water.html Scary.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:THE TRUTH ABOUT THE DRINKING WATER


is









> quote:sodium fluoride: this is not a water treatment and was initially added as a supplement to 'assumingly' prevent tooth decay5 in childre


which it does quite well.


> quote:Scary


So is this







Is that one reason why we read science fiction?


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:THE TRUTH ABOUT THE DRINKING WATER


is









> quote:sodium fluoride: this is not a water treatment and was initially added as a supplement to 'assumingly' prevent tooth decay5 in childre


which it does quite well.


> quote:Scary


So is this







Is that one reason why we read science fiction?


----------



## kschultz (Jul 8, 2004)

So does cleaning your teeth. So do you also believe they should add everthing people "might" be deficient in to the water ...??


----------



## kschultz (Jul 8, 2004)

So does cleaning your teeth. So do you also believe they should add everthing people "might" be deficient in to the water ...??


----------



## kschultz (Jul 8, 2004)

Flux how you go about selecting your sources ? Do you have a recommended reading list ? I would love to see it.


----------



## kschultz (Jul 8, 2004)

Flux how you go about selecting your sources ? Do you have a recommended reading list ? I would love to see it.


----------



## kschultz (Jul 8, 2004)

Here's a very "red" site (for some reason uses a lot of capitals and bold red type to "get the readers attention ??) which makes it very difficult to read but has a list of foodstuffs with a high fluoride content. http://www.npwa.freeserve.co.uk/IBS.html


----------



## kschultz (Jul 8, 2004)

Here's a very "red" site (for some reason uses a lot of capitals and bold red type to "get the readers attention ??) which makes it very difficult to read but has a list of foodstuffs with a high fluoride content. http://www.npwa.freeserve.co.uk/IBS.html


----------



## kschultz (Jul 8, 2004)

(provided by the UK's National Pure Water Association)


----------



## kschultz (Jul 8, 2004)

(provided by the UK's National Pure Water Association)


----------



## jeanne m (Feb 9, 2004)

Re: Flux- I notice that he/she is always ready to argue against anything others post- wonder if he/she even suffers from IBS- or is just a trouble maker. If you are really suffering from IBS, and even your doctors have run out of suggestions that might help, as mine have, why not try something- anything that might help- regardless of what Flux thinks!


----------



## jeanne m (Feb 9, 2004)

Re: Flux- I notice that he/she is always ready to argue against anything others post- wonder if he/she even suffers from IBS- or is just a trouble maker. If you are really suffering from IBS, and even your doctors have run out of suggestions that might help, as mine have, why not try something- anything that might help- regardless of what Flux thinks!


----------



## jeanne m (Feb 9, 2004)

Have been using a floride gell for my teeth, drank a large tea in a restaurant yesterday and despite being very careful about what I ate my bloating was much worse in the evening. Have decided to stop the floride products and to drink bottled water for a while and see what happens. If it seems to help will report back here.


----------



## jeanne m (Feb 9, 2004)

Have been using a floride gell for my teeth, drank a large tea in a restaurant yesterday and despite being very careful about what I ate my bloating was much worse in the evening. Have decided to stop the floride products and to drink bottled water for a while and see what happens. If it seems to help will report back here.


----------



## kschultz (Jul 8, 2004)

> quote: quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------sodium fluoride: this is not a water treatment and was initially added as a supplement to 'assumingly' prevent tooth decay5 in childre--------------------------------------------------------------------------------which it does quite well.


Flux you're always demanding that members justify their claims ... what scientific research or data supports your claim that fluoride in the water prevents tooth decay ?From what I have read, "Most people do not know that plain "fluoride" does not exist in our water. The naturally occurring form of fluoride, calcium fluoride, is not toxic - but this form is not used to fluoridate water. The chemicals used to fluoridate over 90% of the in the US are one of the silicofluorides (either fluosilicic acid or sodium silicofluoride, not sodium fluoride). Sodium hydrofluorosilicic acid is one of the most reactive chemical species know to man. Its toxicity is well known. This is added to our water to produce "healthy teeth.ï¿½ Very little long-term research has been done on fluorosilicates, that which is what is poured into the drinking water." http://www.lammd.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_form...2-No5-Water.cfm When several regions in the former East Germany halted the artificial fluoridation of their water, they braced themselves for an expected rise in dental caries (cavities). However, as it turns out, they needn't have worried at all, since dental decay rates actually WENT DOWN.According to researchers, following the cessation of public water fluoridation, "ï¿½a significant fall in caries prevalence was observed. This trend corresponded to the national caries decline and appeared to be a new population-wide phenomenon." According to the study, the results provide "ï¿½further support for the contention that caries prevalence may continue to fall after the reduction of fluoride concentration in the water supply from about 1 ppm to below 0.2 ppm F." http://www.mercola.com/2000/oct/29/fluoride_cavities.htm


----------



## kschultz (Jul 8, 2004)

> quote: quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------sodium fluoride: this is not a water treatment and was initially added as a supplement to 'assumingly' prevent tooth decay5 in childre--------------------------------------------------------------------------------which it does quite well.


Flux you're always demanding that members justify their claims ... what scientific research or data supports your claim that fluoride in the water prevents tooth decay ?From what I have read, "Most people do not know that plain "fluoride" does not exist in our water. The naturally occurring form of fluoride, calcium fluoride, is not toxic - but this form is not used to fluoridate water. The chemicals used to fluoridate over 90% of the in the US are one of the silicofluorides (either fluosilicic acid or sodium silicofluoride, not sodium fluoride). Sodium hydrofluorosilicic acid is one of the most reactive chemical species know to man. Its toxicity is well known. This is added to our water to produce "healthy teeth.ï¿½ Very little long-term research has been done on fluorosilicates, that which is what is poured into the drinking water." http://www.lammd.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_form...2-No5-Water.cfm When several regions in the former East Germany halted the artificial fluoridation of their water, they braced themselves for an expected rise in dental caries (cavities). However, as it turns out, they needn't have worried at all, since dental decay rates actually WENT DOWN.According to researchers, following the cessation of public water fluoridation, "ï¿½a significant fall in caries prevalence was observed. This trend corresponded to the national caries decline and appeared to be a new population-wide phenomenon." According to the study, the results provide "ï¿½further support for the contention that caries prevalence may continue to fall after the reduction of fluoride concentration in the water supply from about 1 ppm to below 0.2 ppm F." http://www.mercola.com/2000/oct/29/fluoride_cavities.htm


----------



## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Q-John Archer in his book 'THE WATER YOU DRINK, HOW SAFE IS IT ?' refers to an estimate of 60,000 tonnes of fifty different chemicals being deliberately added annually to Australia's water. Some of these are: ...Most of them are "remove" with the treatment.Visit your local installation.Some chemicals remains like chloride which form insane molecules with pigs urin apparently.Cancer related.


----------



## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Q-John Archer in his book 'THE WATER YOU DRINK, HOW SAFE IS IT ?' refers to an estimate of 60,000 tonnes of fifty different chemicals being deliberately added annually to Australia's water. Some of these are: ...Most of them are "remove" with the treatment.Visit your local installation.Some chemicals remains like chloride which form insane molecules with pigs urin apparently.Cancer related.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:http://www.npwa.freeserve.co.uk/IBS.html












> quote:http://www.lammd.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_form...2-No5-Water.cfm












> quote:http://www.mercola.com/2000/oct/29/fluoride_cavities.htm


This is a real study but it doesn't tell us what is being claimed. We don't know what other sources of fluoride the subjects are getting or what their diets or genetics are like. It does *not* say that halting flouridation of water reduces tooth decay


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:http://www.npwa.freeserve.co.uk/IBS.html












> quote:http://www.lammd.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_form...2-No5-Water.cfm












> quote:http://www.mercola.com/2000/oct/29/fluoride_cavities.htm


This is a real study but it doesn't tell us what is being claimed. We don't know what other sources of fluoride the subjects are getting or what their diets or genetics are like. It does *not* say that halting flouridation of water reduces tooth decay


----------



## kschultz (Jul 8, 2004)

Flux again you demonstrate selective hearing."Flux you're always demanding that members justify their claims ... what scientific research or data supports your claim that fluoride in the water prevents tooth decay ?"


----------



## kschultz (Jul 8, 2004)

Flux again you demonstrate selective hearing."Flux you're always demanding that members justify their claims ... what scientific research or data supports your claim that fluoride in the water prevents tooth decay ?"


----------



## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=11021861 RESULTS: 214 studies were included. The quality of studies was low to moderate. Water fluoridation was associated with an increased proportion of children without caries and a reduction in the number of teeth affected by caries. The range (median) of mean differences in the proportion of children without caries was -5.0% to 64% (14.6%). The range (median) of mean change in decayed, missing, and filled primary/permanent teeth was 0.5 to 4.4 (2.25) teeth. A dose-dependent increase in dental fluorosis was found. At a fluoride level of 1 ppm an estimated 12.5% (95% confidence interval 7.0% to 21.5%) of exposed people would have fluorosis that they would find aesthetically concerning. CONCLUSIONS: The evidence of a beneficial reduction in caries should be considered together with the increased prevalence of dental fluorosis. There was no clear evidence of other potential adverse effects.From the other thread where there was supposed to be ZERO studies showing safety. THis is a different quote from a review of the subject including MANY studies.K.


----------



## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=11021861 RESULTS: 214 studies were included. The quality of studies was low to moderate. Water fluoridation was associated with an increased proportion of children without caries and a reduction in the number of teeth affected by caries. The range (median) of mean differences in the proportion of children without caries was -5.0% to 64% (14.6%). The range (median) of mean change in decayed, missing, and filled primary/permanent teeth was 0.5 to 4.4 (2.25) teeth. A dose-dependent increase in dental fluorosis was found. At a fluoride level of 1 ppm an estimated 12.5% (95% confidence interval 7.0% to 21.5%) of exposed people would have fluorosis that they would find aesthetically concerning. CONCLUSIONS: The evidence of a beneficial reduction in caries should be considered together with the increased prevalence of dental fluorosis. There was no clear evidence of other potential adverse effects.From the other thread where there was supposed to be ZERO studies showing safety. THis is a different quote from a review of the subject including MANY studies.K.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:you're always demanding that members justify their claims ... what scientific research or data supports your claim that fluoride in the water prevents tooth decay ?"


That fluoride is safe and effective has been well established over decades of use. It is up to those with the


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:you're always demanding that members justify their claims ... what scientific research or data supports your claim that fluoride in the water prevents tooth decay ?"


That fluoride is safe and effective has been well established over decades of use. It is up to those with the


----------



## kschultz (Jul 8, 2004)

The earth was round all along, even before "science" proved otherwise. They also believed it was flat once too.


----------



## kschultz (Jul 8, 2004)

The earth was round all along, even before "science" proved otherwise. They also believed it was flat once too.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:The earth was round all along, even before "science" proved otherwise. They also believed it was flat once too.


So what are you saying that Earth is really flat and science will eventually prove this?


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:The earth was round all along, even before "science" proved otherwise. They also believed it was flat once too.


So what are you saying that Earth is really flat and science will eventually prove this?


----------



## kschultz (Jul 8, 2004)

Aahh the twisted mind of flux ...









Did you really not understand my point or was this merely attempt to twist my words.For those that didn't understand my comment, I was saying that the earth was believed flat by scientists until later it was proved to be round.In other words, fluoride was thought to be safe (you can't prove a product is safe, it can take hundreds of years before all the side effects of something are realised in their cause) but from the growing controversy surrounding fluoride it is quite possible it could soon be proven to be harmful.


----------



## kschultz (Jul 8, 2004)

Aahh the twisted mind of flux ...







Did you really not understand my point or was this merely attempt to twist my words.For those that didn't understand my comment, I was saying that the earth was believed flat by scientists until later it was proved to be round.In other words, fluoride was thought to be safe (you can't prove a product is safe, it can take hundreds of years before all the side effects of something are realised in their cause) but from the growing controversy surrounding fluoride it is quite possible it could soon be proven to be harmful.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: I was saying that the earth was believed flat by scientists until later it was proved to be round.


No, AFAIK, no scientist ever believed the Earth was flat. Science, namely the Greeks, discovered it was round over 2000 years ago. So the idea of a flat Earth came later on, an obvious myth.Also, AFAIK, fluoride may have initally been believed for a short time to be a problem probably around 1930s, but that was apparently dispelled I guess by the 1950s (just twenty years, not centuries), at least in the scientific/medical community and, just like the flat Earth myth appearing centuries after the fact. There is a group running around posting entirely false information about fluoride (and many other things, if you read closely). *No reputable scientist today believes fluoride is a problem*


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: I was saying that the earth was believed flat by scientists until later it was proved to be round.


No, AFAIK, no scientist ever believed the Earth was flat. Science, namely the Greeks, discovered it was round over 2000 years ago. So the idea of a flat Earth came later on, an obvious myth.Also, AFAIK, fluoride may have initally been believed for a short time to be a problem probably around 1930s, but that was apparently dispelled I guess by the 1950s (just twenty years, not centuries), at least in the scientific/medical community and, just like the flat Earth myth appearing centuries after the fact. There is a group running around posting entirely false information about fluoride (and many other things, if you read closely). *No reputable scientist today believes fluoride is a problem*


----------



## alex39 (Jun 21, 2004)

Since the one thing in my diet that I've never eliminated is the prodigious amounts of tea I drink each day, I think I might follow Len's advice and remove tea for several weeks along with fluoridated toothpaste. I drink probably a liter or more of tea each day...I'll report back if I notice any improvement.


----------



## alex39 (Jun 21, 2004)

Since the one thing in my diet that I've never eliminated is the prodigious amounts of tea I drink each day, I think I might follow Len's advice and remove tea for several weeks along with fluoridated toothpaste. I drink probably a liter or more of tea each day...I'll report back if I notice any improvement.


----------



## Jan8 (Nov 5, 1999)

Thanks for all this information, had not seen this thread before now. Fluoride free for me thats for sure. Thank you Len.In a previous post on this thread someone said of a certain person that they only see things in black and white with no grey. That is one of the symptoms of Borderline Personality Disorder along with mood swings and destructive behavior. Which explains a lot.We should be kind to this person, it is one hell of an illness, no fun for him/her.


----------



## Jan8 (Nov 5, 1999)

Thanks for all this information, had not seen this thread before now. Fluoride free for me thats for sure. Thank you Len.In a previous post on this thread someone said of a certain person that they only see things in black and white with no grey. That is one of the symptoms of Borderline Personality Disorder along with mood swings and destructive behavior. Which explains a lot.We should be kind to this person, it is one hell of an illness, no fun for him/her.


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Fluoride not good. http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/shamesfluoride.htm http://www.rvi.net/~fluoride/wrong.htm http://www.dcnutrition.com/news/Detail.CFM?RecordNumber=609 http://www.dcnutrition.com/news/Detail.CFM?RecordNumber=640 http://www.dcnutrition.com/news/Detail.CFM?RecordNumber=608 http://www.nofluoride.com/quotes.htm http://homepage.tinet.ie/~fluoridefree/cam...al-Sept2000.htm http://homepage.tinet.ie/~fluoridefree/cam..._update/ibs.htm http://groups.yahoo.com/group/waterforum/message/9019 http://www.mercola.com/2000/sept/10/green_...ide_thyroid.htm http://bruha.com/pfpc/html/picture_i.html http://education.vsnl.com/fluorosis/publication.html http://education.vsnl.com/fluorosis/animal.html http://64.177.90.157/science/index.html http://www.mercola.com/article/links/fluoride_links.htm http://www.npwa.freeserve.co.uk http://www.glenwalker.net http://www.fluoride.org.uk http://www.fluoridefree.com http://www.dartmouth.edu/~rmasters/AHABS/welcome.htm http://www.fluoridealert.org http://www.orgsites.com/ny/nyscof http://www.enn.com/direct/display-by-affiliate.asp?id=1765 http://www.fluoridation.com http://www.bruha.com/fluoride http://www.garynull.com/issues/Fluoride/Fl...eActionFile.htm http://www.citizens.org/Food_water_safety/...on/fluoride.htm


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Fluoride not good. http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/shamesfluoride.htm http://www.rvi.net/~fluoride/wrong.htm http://www.dcnutrition.com/news/Detail.CFM?RecordNumber=609 http://www.dcnutrition.com/news/Detail.CFM?RecordNumber=640 http://www.dcnutrition.com/news/Detail.CFM?RecordNumber=608 http://www.nofluoride.com/quotes.htm http://homepage.tinet.ie/~fluoridefree/cam...al-Sept2000.htm http://homepage.tinet.ie/~fluoridefree/cam..._update/ibs.htm http://groups.yahoo.com/group/waterforum/message/9019 http://www.mercola.com/2000/sept/10/green_...ide_thyroid.htm http://bruha.com/pfpc/html/picture_i.html http://education.vsnl.com/fluorosis/publication.html http://education.vsnl.com/fluorosis/animal.html http://64.177.90.157/science/index.html http://www.mercola.com/article/links/fluoride_links.htm http://www.npwa.freeserve.co.uk http://www.glenwalker.net http://www.fluoride.org.uk http://www.fluoridefree.com http://www.dartmouth.edu/~rmasters/AHABS/welcome.htm http://www.fluoridealert.org http://www.orgsites.com/ny/nyscof http://www.enn.com/direct/display-by-affiliate.asp?id=1765 http://www.fluoridation.com http://www.bruha.com/fluoride http://www.garynull.com/issues/Fluoride/Fl...eActionFile.htm http://www.citizens.org/Food_water_safety/...on/fluoride.htm


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: That is one of the symptoms of Borderline Personality Disorder


That could very well explain it.


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: That is one of the symptoms of Borderline Personality Disorder


That could very well explain it.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Fluoride not good.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Fluoride not good.


----------



## alex39 (Jun 21, 2004)

That's funny Flux. Kel post twenty links with fairly credible evidence that Fluoride is not good for you and you counter with a graphic. Hmm, can't argue with that...


----------



## alex39 (Jun 21, 2004)

That's funny Flux. Kel post twenty links with fairly credible evidence that Fluoride is not good for you and you counter with a graphic. Hmm, can't argue with that...


----------



## SHANNON S (Feb 10, 2003)

This is very interesting to me. I just took Folic Acid the other day because I read somewhere that our bodies need it. Well that was two days ago and I have suffered with "D", headache, I just feel like when you are about to get a cold (in a fog). I did some reasearch and came across info that Folic Acid can contain fluoride. Prior to me taken this I was free of "D" for about a month and a half. I only drink bottle water that does not have flouride in it and I only use a small amount of toothpaste. And of course my diet is very limited. Just thought I would share.ShannonIBS-D


----------



## SHANNON S (Feb 10, 2003)

This is very interesting to me. I just took Folic Acid the other day because I read somewhere that our bodies need it. Well that was two days ago and I have suffered with "D", headache, I just feel like when you are about to get a cold (in a fog). I did some reasearch and came across info that Folic Acid can contain fluoride. Prior to me taken this I was free of "D" for about a month and a half. I only drink bottle water that does not have flouride in it and I only use a small amount of toothpaste. And of course my diet is very limited. Just thought I would share.ShannonIBS-D


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quoteost twenty links with fairly *credible* evidence that Fluoride is not good for you


Don't you mean..


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quoteost twenty links with fairly *credible* evidence that Fluoride is not good for you


Don't you mean..


----------



## Homebound (Jan 27, 2000)

Well my problems are due to my gallbladder going bad. I know this for fact. Honestly it doesn't surprise me that the things we put in to our bodies could be causing these types of symptoms. There is so much #### we eat, drink and breathe these days. But I don't believe it's the sole reason why people get this. I HATE tea, never drink it. I don't swallow my tooth paste, and honestly I'm not one to drink a whole lot of water. There is a lot of reasons why people get these symptoms. Mine started with my gallbladder going bad, stayed that way once it was removed. And can be triggered by certain foods, but mostly emotions I've found. I don't think we'll ever find one "magic" reason as to why we all have this. Unfortunately!


----------



## Homebound (Jan 27, 2000)

Well my problems are due to my gallbladder going bad. I know this for fact. Honestly it doesn't surprise me that the things we put in to our bodies could be causing these types of symptoms. There is so much #### we eat, drink and breathe these days. But I don't believe it's the sole reason why people get this. I HATE tea, never drink it. I don't swallow my tooth paste, and honestly I'm not one to drink a whole lot of water. There is a lot of reasons why people get these symptoms. Mine started with my gallbladder going bad, stayed that way once it was removed. And can be triggered by certain foods, but mostly emotions I've found. I don't think we'll ever find one "magic" reason as to why we all have this. Unfortunately!


----------



## krislynn (Jun 19, 2004)

People are allergic to different things. Maybe flouride is a problem for some people. while others have no reaction to it. But I do believe in general fluoride is safe,,but I woulnd't go swimming in it. Too much of anything will cause some reaction, even too much water in one sitting can put you into a coma. This happened to a kid getting hazed. He had to gulp down gallons of water,,I think he drank 6 gallons or something in one sitting,,and his body went into shock and he was in a coma for a few days...anyway, if you find something particular bothers you,,then cut back & see what happens..and if it works for you,,then great...if it can benefit others then that is good too...


----------



## krislynn (Jun 19, 2004)

People are allergic to different things. Maybe flouride is a problem for some people. while others have no reaction to it. But I do believe in general fluoride is safe,,but I woulnd't go swimming in it. Too much of anything will cause some reaction, even too much water in one sitting can put you into a coma. This happened to a kid getting hazed. He had to gulp down gallons of water,,I think he drank 6 gallons or something in one sitting,,and his body went into shock and he was in a coma for a few days...anyway, if you find something particular bothers you,,then cut back & see what happens..and if it works for you,,then great...if it can benefit others then that is good too...


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/shamesfluoride.htm Fluoride: A Bad Idea Whose Time Has Passed Drs. Richard and Karilee Shames on the Thyroid/Fluoride Linkage by Mary ShomonRichard Shames, M.D. graduated Harvard and University of Pennsylvania, did research at the National Institutes of Health with Nobel Prize winner Marshall Nirenberg, and has been in private practice for twenty five years. Dr. Shames practices holistic medicine -- with a focus on thyroid and autoimmune conditions -- out of Boca Raton, Florida, and has for twenty years been engaged in the search for answers about thyroid disease. Karilee Halo Shames R.N., Ph.D., Dr. Shames' wife, is herself hypothyroid, and is a Clinical Specialist in Psychiatric Nursing and a Certified Holistic Nurse with a PhD. in Holistic Studies. The Shames have a new book called Thyroid Power out in June of 2001, talking about thyroid disease. Mary Shomon: An increasing number of practitioners have identified fluoride as a health concern, and more jurisdictions are fighting fluoridation of water, citing health concerns. In addition to believing that fluoride can cause a variety of health problems, you both have long held that fluoride can trigger or worsen hypothyroidism. Can you explain a bit about how and why fluoride can negatively impact health, and specifically the thyroid?Drs. Shames: Of major interest to us was the statement released Jan 2, 1997 from the employees union of the Environmental Protection Agency, representing 1500 scientists, engineers, lawyers, and other professionals at EPA headquarters in Washington DC. The statement reads: "Our members' review of the body of evidence over the last 11 years, including animal and human epidemiology studies, indicates a causal link between fluoride/fluoridation and cancer, genetic damage, neurological impairment, and bone pathology."


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/shamesfluoride.htm Fluoride: A Bad Idea Whose Time Has Passed Drs. Richard and Karilee Shames on the Thyroid/Fluoride Linkage by Mary ShomonRichard Shames, M.D. graduated Harvard and University of Pennsylvania, did research at the National Institutes of Health with Nobel Prize winner Marshall Nirenberg, and has been in private practice for twenty five years. Dr. Shames practices holistic medicine -- with a focus on thyroid and autoimmune conditions -- out of Boca Raton, Florida, and has for twenty years been engaged in the search for answers about thyroid disease. Karilee Halo Shames R.N., Ph.D., Dr. Shames' wife, is herself hypothyroid, and is a Clinical Specialist in Psychiatric Nursing and a Certified Holistic Nurse with a PhD. in Holistic Studies. The Shames have a new book called Thyroid Power out in June of 2001, talking about thyroid disease. Mary Shomon: An increasing number of practitioners have identified fluoride as a health concern, and more jurisdictions are fighting fluoridation of water, citing health concerns. In addition to believing that fluoride can cause a variety of health problems, you both have long held that fluoride can trigger or worsen hypothyroidism. Can you explain a bit about how and why fluoride can negatively impact health, and specifically the thyroid?Drs. Shames: Of major interest to us was the statement released Jan 2, 1997 from the employees union of the Environmental Protection Agency, representing 1500 scientists, engineers, lawyers, and other professionals at EPA headquarters in Washington DC. The statement reads: "Our members' review of the body of evidence over the last 11 years, including animal and human epidemiology studies, indicates a causal link between fluoride/fluoridation and cancer, genetic damage, neurological impairment, and bone pathology."


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quoteeople are allergic to different things.


But not to fluoride.Fluoride is great stuff. Brush away...


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quoteeople are allergic to different things.


But not to fluoride.Fluoride is great stuff. Brush away...


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

*"Our members' review of the body of evidence over the last 11 years, including animal and human epidemiology studies, indicates a causal link between fluoride/fluoridation and cancer, genetic damage, neurological impairment, and bone pathology." *


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

*"Our members' review of the body of evidence over the last 11 years, including animal and human epidemiology studies, indicates a causal link between fluoride/fluoridation and cancer, genetic damage, neurological impairment, and bone pathology." *


----------



## krislynn (Jun 19, 2004)

i am sure there is some people in this world where fluoride makes them sick. heck, some children have to live in darkeness because light will kill them. there are all sorts of weird things out there.


----------



## krislynn (Jun 19, 2004)

i am sure there is some people in this world where fluoride makes them sick. heck, some children have to live in darkeness because light will kill them. there are all sorts of weird things out there.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:here are all sorts of weird things out there


Like believing that fluoride is bad.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:here are all sorts of weird things out there


Like believing that fluoride is bad.


----------



## roger (Mar 26, 2003)

FYI Glasgow Health Officials Push for FlouridationIt appears to be quite a controversial subject in Scotland.


----------



## roger (Mar 26, 2003)

FYI Glasgow Health Officials Push for FlouridationIt appears to be quite a controversial subject in Scotland.


----------



## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

Question: anyone know if Cipro, Floxin or any of the Floroquinilin (sp?) are drived from flouride? thought I read that somewhere. Joann


----------



## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

Question: anyone know if Cipro, Floxin or any of the Floroquinilin (sp?) are drived from flouride? thought I read that somewhere. Joann


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:anyone know if Cipro, Floxin or any of the Floroquinilin (sp?) are drived from flouride?


Who cares?


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:anyone know if Cipro, Floxin or any of the Floroquinilin (sp?) are drived from flouride?


Who cares?


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote:who cares?


Because it is relevant -- JakAs http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/2003-0...luorophenyl.htm In the 1930s is was first observed that all fluoride compounds, organic and inorganic ones, inhibit thyroid hormones. This was first established in the 1930s by experiments conducted by Prof. Kurt Kraft who exposed tadpoles (bufo vulgaris, rana temporaria) to fluoride compounds including sodium fluoride, fluorotyrosine and fluorobenzoic acid (Kraft, 1937). Numerous fluoride compounds were used subsequently as the first line of treatment for hyperthyroidism in various countries, for several decades.


----------



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote:who cares?


Because it is relevant -- JakAs http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/2003-0...luorophenyl.htm In the 1930s is was first observed that all fluoride compounds, organic and inorganic ones, inhibit thyroid hormones. This was first established in the 1930s by experiments conducted by Prof. Kurt Kraft who exposed tadpoles (bufo vulgaris, rana temporaria) to fluoride compounds including sodium fluoride, fluorotyrosine and fluorobenzoic acid (Kraft, 1937). Numerous fluoride compounds were used subsequently as the first line of treatment for hyperthyroidism in various countries, for several decades.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Because it is relevant


To?


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Because it is relevant


To?


----------



## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

Kel, Thanks. on the link of the site above is an article on cipro. It is a flouride. Been having a weird foot problem coincidently after finishing a round of floxin, that is why I asked. when I stretch my foot the ball of foot seems to knot and feel k=like I am stepping on a ball. hmmm, Joann


----------



## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

Kel, Thanks. on the link of the site above is an article on cipro. It is a flouride. Been having a weird foot problem coincidently after finishing a round of floxin, that is why I asked. when I stretch my foot the ball of foot seems to knot and feel k=like I am stepping on a ball. hmmm, Joann


----------



## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

THE THING IS THERE IS NO TOOTHPASTE EFFECTIVE LIKE FLUORIDE.RIGTH?I CHALLENGE ANYBODY TO FIND A FLUORIDE TOOTHPASTE REPLACEMENT.I WOULD BE THE FIRST TO TRY IT.


----------



## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

THE THING IS THERE IS NO TOOTHPASTE EFFECTIVE LIKE FLUORIDE.RIGTH?I CHALLENGE ANYBODY TO FIND A FLUORIDE TOOTHPASTE REPLACEMENT.I WOULD BE THE FIRST TO TRY IT.


----------



## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Effective meaning how.Cleaning ability you don't need fluoride, but they are supposed to prevent tooth decay. But frequent brushing should help with that no matter what the content (like after every meal)I mean my Aunt who never had cavities or dental problems just used plain old baking soda. http://www.tomsofmaine.com/ has a variety of toothpasts some without fluoride that seem to be good. http://nhe.net/naturalorganictoothpaste/ lists a bunch of them.Pretty much need to go to your health food/organic food store. But those who want fluoride out of their water usually aslo refuse to use toothpaste with it.K.


----------



## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Effective meaning how.Cleaning ability you don't need fluoride, but they are supposed to prevent tooth decay. But frequent brushing should help with that no matter what the content (like after every meal)I mean my Aunt who never had cavities or dental problems just used plain old baking soda. http://www.tomsofmaine.com/ has a variety of toothpasts some without fluoride that seem to be good. http://nhe.net/naturalorganictoothpaste/ lists a bunch of them.Pretty much need to go to your health food/organic food store. But those who want fluoride out of their water usually aslo refuse to use toothpaste with it.K.


----------



## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

spas teatree oil toothpaste Joann


----------



## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

spas teatree oil toothpaste Joann


----------



## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

LETS WRITE BIG SINCE THE BB IS small.I have tried a cherry toothpaste at the health store the other day but after a while the teeth become "coated" and then i had to return to Fluoride.







A clinical trial who prove that a "new" toothpaste would be more effective than Fluoride,that's what we need.


----------



## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

LETS WRITE BIG SINCE THE BB IS small.I have tried a cherry toothpaste at the health store the other day but after a while the teeth become "coated" and then i had to return to Fluoride.







A clinical trial who prove that a "new" toothpaste would be more effective than Fluoride,that's what we need.


----------



## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Fluoride has nothing to do with how well it cleans your teeth.So the coating may be that it was a bad brand, not that it was no fluoride.Try one of the Tom's Natural. People I know who use that brand seem to like it, they make them with and without fluoride.K.


----------



## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Fluoride has nothing to do with how well it cleans your teeth.So the coating may be that it was a bad brand, not that it was no fluoride.Try one of the Tom's Natural. People I know who use that brand seem to like it, they make them with and without fluoride.K.


----------



## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

I think the flouride is like antibacterial in toothpaste. so less bacteria less cavities. Joann


----------



## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

I think the flouride is like antibacterial in toothpaste. so less bacteria less cavities. Joann


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:I think the flouride is like antibacterial in toothpaste. so less bacteria less cavities.


No, fluoride is incorporated into the "bone" of the tooth. It makes the tooth physically more resistant to decay, which is breakdown by the action of bacteria. Sort of like adding steel to concrete to reinforce it.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:I think the flouride is like antibacterial in toothpaste. so less bacteria less cavities.


No, fluoride is incorporated into the "bone" of the tooth. It makes the tooth physically more resistant to decay, which is breakdown by the action of bacteria. Sort of like adding steel to concrete to reinforce it.


----------



## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

Flux, That is not what my dentist told me! He said flouride used while pregnant has the effect you are talking about...incorporated into the bone of teeth. Not so when already formed. Maybe if flouride + calcium is put directly on the tooth with a VERY small hole it might rebuild but even then it would not be as strong as witness the "experiments" in the past using flouride for fractured bones, the bones were weak and fragile. Joann


----------



## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

Flux,  That is not what my dentist told me! He said flouride used while pregnant has the effect you are talking about...incorporated into the bone of teeth. Not so when already formed. Maybe if flouride + calcium is put directly on the tooth with a VERY small hole it might rebuild but even then it would not be as strong as witness the "experiments" in the past using flouride for fractured bones, the bones were weak and fragile. Joann


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

It definitely seems to be involved in remineralization (whether or not is physically incorporated into the tooth structure) : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=15185988


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

It definitely seems to be involved in remineralization (whether or not is physically incorporated into the tooth structure) : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=15185988


----------



## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

If I read correctly above Pottasium flouride and a flouride amine together is what showed a difference. amine is ammonia? is this in toothpaste? Joann


----------



## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

If I read correctly above Pottasium flouride and a flouride amine together is what showed a difference. amine is ammonia? is this in toothpaste? Joann


----------



## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Amine is not ammonia, exactly.Amine is a group of atoms (that has nitrogen and hydrogen like ammonia dose) that is stuck onto something else.Amino Acids make up all the protiens in your body typically have Amine groups, thus they Amino Acids (I'd have to check to make sure it is everyone of them, but I think it is)Ammonia is like an amine group hanging out all by itself.K.


----------



## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Amine is not ammonia, exactly.Amine is a group of atoms (that has nitrogen and hydrogen like ammonia dose) that is stuck onto something else.Amino Acids make up all the protiens in your body typically have Amine groups, thus they Amino Acids (I'd have to check to make sure it is everyone of them, but I think it is)Ammonia is like an amine group hanging out all by itself.K.


----------



## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

Thanks, so in the ammonia, hydrogen is replaced by something else. sodium flouride in toothpaste? amine? think no. baking soda does a better job I think. Joann


----------



## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

Thanks, so in the ammonia, hydrogen is replaced by something else. sodium flouride in toothpaste? amine? think no. baking soda does a better job I think. Joann


----------



## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Ammonia is JUST Hydrogens and Nitrogen.In an amine one of the Hydrogens is replaced by usually a chain of carbons with hydrogens stuck on them (a hydrocarbon)K.


----------



## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Ammonia is JUST Hydrogens and Nitrogen.In an amine one of the Hydrogens is replaced by usually a chain of carbons with hydrogens stuck on them (a hydrocarbon)K.


----------



## GSNAILS (Aug 21, 2004)

I will deffinatley give it a try, the flouride thing that is because my husband and my 9 year old son both on thyroid meds, so you know it couldn't hurt. I am totally miserable from this IBS thing and yes it is probably something we all use and it only triggers the IBS in certain ones. Worth a try, at this point what would it hurt.


----------



## GSNAILS (Aug 21, 2004)

I will deffinatley give it a try, the flouride thing that is because my husband and my 9 year old son both on thyroid meds, so you know it couldn't hurt. I am totally miserable from this IBS thing and yes it is probably something we all use and it only triggers the IBS in certain ones. Worth a try, at this point what would it hurt.


----------



## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

bumped for a new member


----------



## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

bumped for a new member


----------



## AnthonyS (Sep 10, 2004)

wow i didnt see this..im so glad people are finally making the connection!.....thanks for showing me this


----------



## AnthonyS (Sep 10, 2004)

wow i didnt see this..im so glad people are finally making the connection!.....thanks for showing me this


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:im so glad people are finally making the connection!


Creativity is a strong suit around here.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:im so glad people are finally making the connection!


Creativity is a strong suit around here.


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Hi,To answer an earlier point of Fluxï¿½s that ï¿½no reputable scientist believed Fluoride was a problemï¿½.One has first to establish whether the act of questioning Fluoride would itself define a Scientist as ï¿½disreputableï¿½ in Fluxï¿½s opinion, or Kookyï¿½ as he implied earlier. If, to be reputable, one has to have Fluxï¿½s view on Fluoride then there are very, very many disreputable scientists.In fact is it is not the experts on Fluoride that favour it. It tends to be Dentists pushing Fluoride. Dentists are NOT experts on FluorideToxicologists and Histocytochemists, the real experts in this field are immensely sceptical about Fluoride.But here is the story of one New Zealand Dental Officer that did a World Tour promoting Fluoride before he realised he was duped and wrong.WHY I CHANGED MY MIND ABOUT WATER FLUORIDATIONby JOHN COLQUHOUN*Perspectives in Biology and Medicine, 41, 1, Autumn 1997Former AdvocateTo explain how I came to change my opinion about water fluoridation, I must go back to when I was an ardent advocate of the procedure. I now realize that I had learned, in my training in dentistry, only one side of the scientific controversy over fluoridation. I had been taught, and believed, that there was really no scientific case against fluoridation, and that only misinformed lay people and a few crackpot professionals were foolish enough to oppose it. I recall how, after I had been elected to a local government in Auckland (New Zealand's largest city, where I practised dentistry for many years and where I eventually became the Principal Dental Officer) I had fiercely ï¿½ and, I now regret, rather arrogantly ï¿½ poured scorn on another Council member (a lay person who had heard and accepted the case against fluoridation) and persuaded the Mayor and majority of my fellow councillors to agree to fluoridation of our water supply.A few years later, when I had become the city's Principal Dental Officer, I published a paper in the New Zealand Dental Journal that reported how children's tooth decay had declined in the city following fluoridation of its water, to which I attributed the decline, pointing out that the greatest benefit appeared to be in low-income areas [1]. My duties as a public servant included supervision of the city's school dental clinics, which were part of a national School Dental Service which provided regular six-monthly dental treatment, with strictly enforced uniform diagnostic standards, to almost all (98 percent) school children up to the age of 12 or 13 years. I thus had access to treatment records, and therefore tooth decay rates, of virtually all the city's children. In the study I claimed that such treatment statistics "provide a valid measure of the dental health of our child population" [1]. That claim was accepted by my professional colleagues, and the study is cited in the official history of the New Zealand Dental Association [2]. For the reasons he changed his mind read thre full article here:- http://www.fluoride-journal.com/98-31-2/312103.htm


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Hi,To answer an earlier point of Fluxï¿½s that ï¿½no reputable scientist believed Fluoride was a problemï¿½.One has first to establish whether the act of questioning Fluoride would itself define a Scientist as ï¿½disreputableï¿½ in Fluxï¿½s opinion, or Kookyï¿½ as he implied earlier. If, to be reputable, one has to have Fluxï¿½s view on Fluoride then there are very, very many disreputable scientists.In fact is it is not the experts on Fluoride that favour it. It tends to be Dentists pushing Fluoride. Dentists are NOT experts on FluorideToxicologists and Histocytochemists, the real experts in this field are immensely sceptical about Fluoride.But here is the story of one New Zealand Dental Officer that did a World Tour promoting Fluoride before he realised he was duped and wrong.WHY I CHANGED MY MIND ABOUT WATER FLUORIDATIONby JOHN COLQUHOUN*Perspectives in Biology and Medicine, 41, 1, Autumn 1997Former AdvocateTo explain how I came to change my opinion about water fluoridation, I must go back to when I was an ardent advocate of the procedure. I now realize that I had learned, in my training in dentistry, only one side of the scientific controversy over fluoridation. I had been taught, and believed, that there was really no scientific case against fluoridation, and that only misinformed lay people and a few crackpot professionals were foolish enough to oppose it. I recall how, after I had been elected to a local government in Auckland (New Zealand's largest city, where I practised dentistry for many years and where I eventually became the Principal Dental Officer) I had fiercely ï¿½ and, I now regret, rather arrogantly ï¿½ poured scorn on another Council member (a lay person who had heard and accepted the case against fluoridation) and persuaded the Mayor and majority of my fellow councillors to agree to fluoridation of our water supply.A few years later, when I had become the city's Principal Dental Officer, I published a paper in the New Zealand Dental Journal that reported how children's tooth decay had declined in the city following fluoridation of its water, to which I attributed the decline, pointing out that the greatest benefit appeared to be in low-income areas [1]. My duties as a public servant included supervision of the city's school dental clinics, which were part of a national School Dental Service which provided regular six-monthly dental treatment, with strictly enforced uniform diagnostic standards, to almost all (98 percent) school children up to the age of 12 or 13 years. I thus had access to treatment records, and therefore tooth decay rates, of virtually all the city's children. In the study I claimed that such treatment statistics "provide a valid measure of the dental health of our child population" [1]. That claim was accepted by my professional colleagues, and the study is cited in the official history of the New Zealand Dental Association [2]. For the reasons he changed his mind read thre full article here:- http://www.fluoride-journal.com/98-31-2/312103.htm


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:If, to be reputable, one has to have Fluxï¿½s view on Fluoride then there are very, very many disreputable scientists


Disreputable, yes. Scientists, no.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:If, to be reputable, one has to have Fluxï¿½s view on Fluoride then there are very, very many disreputable scientists


Disreputable, yes. Scientists, no.


----------



## hyenaDEN5 (Sep 3, 2004)

Forgive me if someone already went more into detail about this, for I did not read ALL the posts... but...I read something about flouride also causing Hypothyroidism. I have that also! I have that and IBS. I know hypothyroidism could cause "C" but I've been on Synthroid for 9 years now, and my thyroid numbers are normal, so I don't feel that the thyroid is causing the IBS. I was about to disregard this post until I saw the connection between Flouride and hypothyroidism! Wtf, how could I ignore that.







The ones disagreeing with Len, well you can say I'm gullible or something, but it seems too coincidental to pass up for me. However, I drink hardly any tap water...my mother suggested when I was a kid not to do so b/c of all the pollution in it, etc. However, I still use it when boiling water, etc. Hmm... this is interesting. Whether it is ever proven true or not, thanks, Len, for adding another possible "cause" or something...


----------



## hyenaDEN5 (Sep 3, 2004)

Forgive me if someone already went more into detail about this, for I did not read ALL the posts... but...I read something about flouride also causing Hypothyroidism. I have that also! I have that and IBS. I know hypothyroidism could cause "C" but I've been on Synthroid for 9 years now, and my thyroid numbers are normal, so I don't feel that the thyroid is causing the IBS. I was about to disregard this post until I saw the connection between Flouride and hypothyroidism! Wtf, how could I ignore that.







The ones disagreeing with Len, well you can say I'm gullible or something, but it seems too coincidental to pass up for me. However, I drink hardly any tap water...my mother suggested when I was a kid not to do so b/c of all the pollution in it, etc. However, I still use it when boiling water, etc. Hmm... this is interesting. Whether it is ever proven true or not, thanks, Len, for adding another possible "cause" or something...


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:you can say I'm gullible or something


You are gullible.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:you can say I'm gullible or something


You are gullible.


----------



## hyenaDEN5 (Sep 3, 2004)

Why am I not suprised. I looked at that and even thought out that you would respond exactly as you did.Actually I am really skeptical by nature, and usually don't trust much of anything without proof. That's why I wouldn't go out and proclaim that this is the truth or something...however I'm not close minded (not that I'm saying you are) and keep all possible things in my mind until I find out what IS right. If ever.And also, you know, I don't care if you really read this or not Flux. But sometimes you're replies are funny, like when you said "Don't. We need flouride." I thought it was funny how you wrote it. But come on, lighten up a little, we are all people who have this *****y disorder (ha. .) And who knows, maybe one rumor you render false might work for one person. What am I saying, who cares. Feel free to dissect this and make me look like an idiot if you want.


----------



## hyenaDEN5 (Sep 3, 2004)

Why am I not suprised. I looked at that and even thought out that you would respond exactly as you did.Actually I am really skeptical by nature, and usually don't trust much of anything without proof. That's why I wouldn't go out and proclaim that this is the truth or something...however I'm not close minded (not that I'm saying you are) and keep all possible things in my mind until I find out what IS right. If ever.And also, you know, I don't care if you really read this or not Flux. But sometimes you're replies are funny, like when you said "Don't. We need flouride." I thought it was funny how you wrote it. But come on, lighten up a little, we are all people who have this *****y disorder (ha. .) And who knows, maybe one rumor you render false might work for one person. What am I saying, who cares. Feel free to dissect this and make me look like an idiot if you want.


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Hi,quote from Flux----------------------------------------------"Disreputable, yes. Scientists, no."-----------------------------------------------(1) Flux, don't pose as a supporter of Science when you flout it's principles.(2)The scientific mentality is no more than the rejction of convention, authority and Common sense in favour of minute examination of evidence, all evidence!You obviously have not considered the evidence you condemn. That is ANTI-SCIENTIFIC.You NEVER contribute, nor analyse, but only snipe with silly, childish, pasted pictures. That is ANTI-SCIENTIFIC.Perhaps you feel your mischief "is in a good cause", but you cannot defend "Science" by defiling Science. Science cannot be defended by ignoring challenges, ignoring evidence, striking superior postures, hiding behind conventional thought, cowering under "commonsense" or sniping with childish pictures and soundbites.YOU INSULT SCIENCE AND ALL IT STANDS FOR.Science, embraces the debate; it does not shrink from any issue or challenge; it does not proceed by lazy, cheap, ignorant, opportunist, one-line retorts. (3) Where is your EVIDENCE that "No reputable scientist considers Fluoride a problem".This is something that no reputable scientist would dare say. Science does not work by a process of mutual insult!(4) To take a case in point. Why not tell us what makes the Chief Dental Officer/Former World Advocate of Fluoride "Disreputable"?If he is disreputable now, was he "disreputable" when he toured the world advocating Fluoridation?Do you know. I'm beginning to believe you don't even read the posts/links/evidence. It's beginning to look like you just look for a phrase to lift out of context to fit a funny pic. This may fill your life with purpose. BUT IT'S NO SERVICE TO SCIENCE.


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Hi,quote from Flux----------------------------------------------"Disreputable, yes. Scientists, no."-----------------------------------------------(1) Flux, don't pose as a supporter of Science when you flout it's principles.(2)The scientific mentality is no more than the rejction of convention, authority and Common sense in favour of minute examination of evidence, all evidence!You obviously have not considered the evidence you condemn. That is ANTI-SCIENTIFIC.You NEVER contribute, nor analyse, but only snipe with silly, childish, pasted pictures. That is ANTI-SCIENTIFIC.Perhaps you feel your mischief "is in a good cause", but you cannot defend "Science" by defiling Science. Science cannot be defended by ignoring challenges, ignoring evidence, striking superior postures, hiding behind conventional thought, cowering under "commonsense" or sniping with childish pictures and soundbites.YOU INSULT SCIENCE AND ALL IT STANDS FOR.Science, embraces the debate; it does not shrink from any issue or challenge; it does not proceed by lazy, cheap, ignorant, opportunist, one-line retorts. (3) Where is your EVIDENCE that "No reputable scientist considers Fluoride a problem".This is something that no reputable scientist would dare say. Science does not work by a process of mutual insult!(4) To take a case in point. Why not tell us what makes the Chief Dental Officer/Former World Advocate of Fluoride "Disreputable"?If he is disreputable now, was he "disreputable" when he toured the world advocating Fluoridation?Do you know. I'm beginning to believe you don't even read the posts/links/evidence. It's beginning to look like you just look for a phrase to lift out of context to fit a funny pic. This may fill your life with purpose. BUT IT'S NO SERVICE TO SCIENCE.


----------



## Guest (Sep 12, 2004)

recently i was told to use an EXTREMELY high flouride gel (Colgate Gel-Kam) .4% stannous Flouride. on my teeth and sleep with it overnite - my mouth full of this stuff. i did this and every single time i would have the WORST stomach problems after a few days. i kept on trying b/c my teeth are wearing thin at gum level and dentist send the flouride would "re-calcify and harden" my teeth. but i just couldn't stand what it did to my stomach. i figured it was the fake sugars in it though. however when i read the ingredients is only said: stannous flouride, glycerin, hydorxyethylcellulose, flavoringany ideas?


----------



## Guest (Sep 12, 2004)

recently i was told to use an EXTREMELY high flouride gel (Colgate Gel-Kam) .4% stannous Flouride. on my teeth and sleep with it overnite - my mouth full of this stuff. i did this and every single time i would have the WORST stomach problems after a few days. i kept on trying b/c my teeth are wearing thin at gum level and dentist send the flouride would "re-calcify and harden" my teeth. but i just couldn't stand what it did to my stomach. i figured it was the fake sugars in it though. however when i read the ingredients is only said: stannous flouride, glycerin, hydorxyethylcellulose, flavoringany ideas?


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Hi,To joanofarc & j houston:Re-calcification, by definition, requires Calcium not Fluoride.Fluoride is an accumulative poison. It accumulates in the mineral structures of the body. ie bone and teeth (Like the less poisonous Lead does).One of the effects it seems to have in these structures is to cause them to be harder and more brittle. Whether this hardening and brittling is a purely pathological/disease process is hotly debated.(ie does Fluoride harm more teeth and bones than it ï¿½helpsï¿½?)However, it seems to have been siezed on as ï¿½a useful pathologyï¿½. (A quick, technical fix for the dental results of bad nutrition). Itï¿½s a bit like taking up smoking to help you slim, or reduce your chances of Alzheimers, (Some evidence for both effects).We are evolved to cope with the minimal, natural, background traces of naturally occurring poisonous compounds, such as would occur in our ancient diet. Thus a trace of Calcium Fluoride, or a trace of other poisonous minerals, will probably have no perceptible effect.However this has nothing to do with shovelling all manner of Fluorides from industrial waste into water and dental products. Due to industrial activity Fluorides in the air and foods has ALREADY risen above natural levels.Therefore Fluoride supplementation of any kind is playing with fire. Although Fluorides are accumulated in bone and teeth this does not mean they are benign with regard to soft tissues. Fluorides are intensely reactive on our soft tissues and this is precisely why they are added to medicines. ï¿½Flourideï¿½ is NOT a medicine. Its reactivity on our tissue is used to potentiate other medicines, increasing their uptake.J. Houstonï¿½s questions can be answered by punching the names of the medications + ï¿½Fluorideï¿½ into google. But any ï¿½floï¿½ in the name almost certainly means it is potentiated with Fluorides.With regard Joanofarcï¿½s thin enamel. It so happens that my wife and I both suffered from this for a long time. We found out the cause and were able to give up Sensodyne completely, our teeth ï¿½remineralisingï¿½ naturally from our diet.The cause was the Orange Juice lollies(Popsicles) we made at home and used to suck nearly every day! Citrus may be good but it might possibly eat your enamel as well, especially sucked as we used to!Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Hi,To joanofarc & j houston:Re-calcification, by definition, requires Calcium not Fluoride.Fluoride is an accumulative poison. It accumulates in the mineral structures of the body. ie bone and teeth (Like the less poisonous Lead does).One of the effects it seems to have in these structures is to cause them to be harder and more brittle. Whether this hardening and brittling is a purely pathological/disease process is hotly debated.(ie does Fluoride harm more teeth and bones than it ï¿½helpsï¿½?)However, it seems to have been siezed on as ï¿½a useful pathologyï¿½. (A quick, technical fix for the dental results of bad nutrition). Itï¿½s a bit like taking up smoking to help you slim, or reduce your chances of Alzheimers, (Some evidence for both effects).We are evolved to cope with the minimal, natural, background traces of naturally occurring poisonous compounds, such as would occur in our ancient diet. Thus a trace of Calcium Fluoride, or a trace of other poisonous minerals, will probably have no perceptible effect.However this has nothing to do with shovelling all manner of Fluorides from industrial waste into water and dental products. Due to industrial activity Fluorides in the air and foods has ALREADY risen above natural levels.Therefore Fluoride supplementation of any kind is playing with fire. Although Fluorides are accumulated in bone and teeth this does not mean they are benign with regard to soft tissues. Fluorides are intensely reactive on our soft tissues and this is precisely why they are added to medicines. ï¿½Flourideï¿½ is NOT a medicine. Its reactivity on our tissue is used to potentiate other medicines, increasing their uptake.J. Houstonï¿½s questions can be answered by punching the names of the medications + ï¿½Fluorideï¿½ into google. But any ï¿½floï¿½ in the name almost certainly means it is potentiated with Fluorides.With regard Joanofarcï¿½s thin enamel. It so happens that my wife and I both suffered from this for a long time. We found out the cause and were able to give up Sensodyne completely, our teeth ï¿½remineralisingï¿½ naturally from our diet.The cause was the Orange Juice lollies(Popsicles) we made at home and used to suck nearly every day! Citrus may be good but it might possibly eat your enamel as well, especially sucked as we used to!Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Hi,Here is a petition by emminent scientific professionals to end the misrepresentation of the pro-Fluoride case.Has Flux EVIDENCE (independent of their scepticism on Fluoride) against each one of these proving they are "disreputable". A Petition to all Governments Practicing, and all Organizations Supporting, Water Fluoridation Released: September 2003 A Petition to all Governments Practicing, and all Organizations Supporting, Water Fluoridation We, the undersigned members of the scientific, academic and professional communities, and others promoting sound public health policy worldwide, call upon professional associations and government agencies in Australia, Brazil, Canada, Ireland, Israel, Malaysia, New Zealand, Singapore, South Africa, the UK and the US, to bring scientific integrity to the issue of water fluoridation. To this end, we urge them: 1) To examine carefully all the literature which pertains to fluoridation's dangers and benefits, in an open, honest and transparent manner. We urge them to hear from experts on both sides of this issue who are prepared to give their testimony under oath before a truly independent scientific panel, the membership of which is approved by both sides. 2) To collect fundamental data such as fluoride levels in the bones and pineal glands, measured during autopsy, and the prevalence of skeletal fluorosis and hypersensitivity/intolerance to fluoride, of those who have lived for various lengths of times in fluoridated areas, as well as using dental fluorosis (tooth mottling) as a bio-marker to investigate the possible dangers to children of being exposed to excessive levels of fluoride at an early age. 3) To halt immediately the practice of using untested and industrial grade waste materials (such as hexafluorosilicic acid from the phosphate fertilizer industry) in water fluoridation programs. 4) To renounce the use of any intimidatory pressures on those professionals whose research or review has led them to adopt an anti-fluoridation position. 5) To renounce the widespread practice of misrepresenting scientific results in order to achieve the fluoridation of more water supplies.6) Either to defend water fluoridation in open public debate or to halt the practice forthwith. (To see the appeal that brought about this petition, click here)--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Current Signatories Include (see complete listing below) :- Dr. Arvid Carlsson, Pharmacologist, Nobel Laureate in Medicine in 2000, Sweden; - Robert J. Carton, PhD, Past-President, EPA Headquarters Union, Washington, DC, USA; - Michael Colby, Executive Director, Food & Water Journal, Vermont, USA;- Paul Connett, PhD, Professor, Chemistry, St. Lawrence University, USA; - Pat Costner, Senior Scientist, Greenpeace International; - Mark Diesendorf, PhD, Director, Sustainability Centre Pty Ltd, Australia; - Samuel S. Epstein, MD, Author of "The Politics of Cancer"; - Dr Doug. N. Everingham, Former Federal Minister of Health, Australia; - Michael Godfrey, Chairman, New Zealand Academy of Oral Medicine and Toxicology; - Edward Goldsmith, Founding Editor, The Ecologist; - Green Party of England & Wales;- Toxics Campaign directors for Greenpeace in Australia, India, Japan, Philippines and Thailand; - Lorna Hancock, Founding Director, Health Action Network Society, Canada; - Paul Hawken, Author, "The Ecology of Commerce" and "Natural Capitalism"; - Von Hernandez, Goldman Prize winner 2003, Toxics Campaigner, Greenpeace International, Phillipines; - William J. Hirzy, PhD, Vice-President, EPA Headquarters Union, Washington, DC, USA; - C. Vyvyan Howard, MB, ChB, PhD, FRCPath, Senior Lecturer, Developmental Toxico-Pathology Group, Department of Human Anatomy and Cell Biology, University of Liverpool; - S.M. Mohamed Idris, President, Friends of the Earth, Malaysia;- Irish Dentists Opposing Fluoridation, Ireland; - Henry Lickers, Scientific Co-chair, Environmental Task Force, Haueenosaunee Nation;- Hardy Limeback, DDS, PhD, Head, Preventive Dentistry, University of Toronto & Former President, Canadian Association for Dental Research; - Lynn Margulis, PhD, Recipient of the 1999 National Medal of Science, University of Massachusetts, USA; - Ronald R. Minor, VMD, PhD, Professor of Biomedical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY;- Peter Montague, PhD, Editor, Rachelï¿½s Environment and Health News, New Brunswick, New Jersey;- Ralph Ryder, President, Communities Against Toxics, England; - Andrew Rynne, GP, Medical Writer, Irish Medical News, Ireland; - Mageswari Sangaralingam, Research Officer, Consumers Association of Penang (CAP), Malaysia;- Albert Schatz, Ph.D., Co-Discoverer of the antibiotic streptomycin, Professor Emeritus, Temple University, Philadelphia;- Ted Schettler, MD, MPH, Science Director, Science and Environmental Health Network, USA; - Gar Smith, Editor Emeritus, Earth Island Journal, Berkeley, California; - John Stauber, Executive Director, Center for Media & Democracy, Co-author of ï¿½Toxic Sludge Is Good For You!" and "Trust Us, We're Experts!ï¿½, Madison, Wisconsin;|- A. K. Susheela, PhD, FASc, FAMS, Executive Director, Fluorosis Research & Rural Development Foundation, Delhi;- Terri Swearingen, RN, Goldman Prize winner 1997, Executive Director, Tri-State Environmental Council, Chester, West Virginia;- World Alliance for Breastfeeding Action, Penang, Malyasia.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------SIGNATORIES: From 40 countries: Argentina, Australia, Austria, Bangladesh, Belarus, Belgium, Brazil, Bulgaria, Canada, Czech Republic, Denmark, Ethiopia, France, Germany, Hungary, India, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Jordan, Malaysia, Nepal, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Philippines, Poland, Puerto Rico, Singapore, Slovenia, South Africa, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Taiwan, Thailand, UK and the USA. NOTE: The listing of institutions/organizations (following the individual's name) is for identification purposes only, and is not meant to imply institutional support for the petition.ARGENTINARaul A. Montenegro, PhD, Professor of Evolutionary Biology, National University of Cordoba and President of FUNAM (Fundaciï¿½n para la defensa del ambient.AUSTRALIAAlwyn Anstis, Secretary, Ballarat Health Watch, Ballarat, Victoria.Linda Apps, Communications officer, Greenpeace.Ante, Joe, John, Mara, Marina, & Miryana Baran, Melbourne.Sandra Barlow, Peace Activist and Environmentalist, Northern NSW.Viviann Birch, Natural therapist/Clinical Hypnotherapist, ViQi Synergy Natural Therapies, Melbourne.Ronald Bradley, Director, Hippocrates Health Centre of Australia, Mudgeeraba Qld.Ailsa Boyden, International Advisory Board, Fluoride Action Network, Farleigh, Queensland.Keith Boyden, Chemist-Technologist, Farleigh, Queensland.Noel Campbell, FACNEM, FASID, BDSc, LDS, Consultant, Clinical Research Scientist, Melbourne, Victoria.Jason Collins, LLB, Toxics campaign volunteer, Greenpeace.Sue Connor, Toxics campaigner, Greenpeace.Rosamund Dallow-Smith, Teacher, Sydney.Mark Diesendorf, PhD, Director, Sustainability Centre Pty Ltd, Sydney.Mark Donohoe, MD, Physician, Sydney.Bernard K. Ehrig, Traffic Supervisor, Geelong, Victoria.Vanessa Errol, Dip Physical Education, BSW CELTA, Speaker for Genethics WA, Como, Western Australia Dr Doug. N. Everingham, Former Federal Minister of Health.Annette Gade, Executor, Conservation of Rockingham Kwinana Environment .C.O.R.K.E., Kwinana, Western Australia.Katica Gracey, Melbourne. Donna Hall, concerned community member, Leopold, Geelong, Victoria.Gail Hamilton*, Project Manager Environmental Impact Management, Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority (*signing in a private capacity), Townsville, Queensland.Sonia Hamill, Geelong.Beatrice Harris, Volunteer, Greenpeace.Steve Hesse, President, Kwinana Progress Association, Kwinana, Western Australia.Anthony & Cheryl Nanette Hill, Lara, Victoria. Elaine Hollingsworth, Director, Hippocrates Health Centre of Australia, Mudgeeraba Qld. Peter Hopper, Mechanical Engineer / Environmental Consultant, Zero Waste Network, Sydney.Bradley Hughes, Internet consultant, Melange computing, Sydney.Konrad Knerr*, Center for Australian Ethical Research (*signing in a private capacity).Ulricke Kroeger, Intern, Greenpeace.Jessa Latona, Media assistant, Greenpeace.Joanne Mahony, Geelong.Katarina Markusic, Melbourne. David McRae, Community Health Officer, Bellarine Community Health, Geelong.Martina Meckel, Genetics Engineering campaigner, Greenpeace.Daniel-Lucas Novakovic, Jennings Computers, Geelong, Victoria. Genevieve O'Connell, Convenor, Wholistic Health Group, Australian Greens Victoria.Geoff Pain, PhD, Consultant scientist, Kelmscott, Western Australia.Nick Pavicic, Melbourne. Sunil Raman, Volunteer Greenpeace.Monica Richter, Corporate Environmental campaigner, Greenpeace..Sarah Roberts, Fundraising & Marketing, Greenpeace.Philip Robertson, Lecturer, Natural Medicine, Dept. Health Science, Victoria University, Victoria.Jean Ryan, Brisbane.John Alexander Ryan, Brisbane.Juliette Frances Ryan, Brisbane.Wieslawa Slomowski, retired, Cartright, NSW.Dr Mariann Lloyd-Smith, PhD, Coordinator, National Toxics Network, Inc., Rivett, ACT, Australia. Melania Stevens, Humanitarian Aid Worker. Shirley Strachan, Geelong, Victoria.Jenie Stroh, Lecturer, Physical Therapies Department, Southern School of Natural Therapies, Naturopath. Dr Philip Stowell MB, BS, FACNEM, General Practitioner, Brisbane, Queensland. Ellen Stuebe, Communications officer, Greenpeace.Andrew S Thurgood, ND, Technical Consultant and Naturopath, Health World Ltd., Brisbane, Qld. Glen S. R. Walker, Chairman, Freedom from Fluoridation in Australia, Victoria.Alan Weinstein, Strategy Matters, Sydney.Ed Wilkinson, Sydney.AUSTRIARudolf Ziegelbecker, Engineer and physicist, retired, formerly scientist at the Center for Electron Microscopy of the Technical University of Graz and at the Institute for Environmental Research at the Research Center Graz.Dr.techn. Rudolf Ziegelbecker, jun.,Technical Physicist, Professor and Koordinator of Physics at Ortwein School, Graz.BANGLADESHDr.Zafrullah Chowdhury, Projects' Coordinator, Gonoshasthaya Kendra, Dhaka.BELGIUMMaurice-Eugï¿½ne Andre, Commandant dï¿½Aviation E.R. spï¿½cialisï¿½ en protection NBCR (nuclï¿½aire, biologique, chimique, radiologique), Visï¿½.Fred De Baere, Flemish Platform Environment and Health.Prof. Dr. Luc Hens, Human Ecology Dept., Vrije Universiteit Brussel (Free University Brussels) Brussels.Johan Malcorps, Member of the Flemish Parliament (Belgium) ï¿½ AGALEV (Flemish Green Party).Pierre Piï¿½rart, Honorary Professor, Mons-Hainaut University, Mons.Dr. Eric Pluygers, Honorary Head of the Department of Oncology, Jolimont Hospital, La Louviï¿½re.Chris Vermeire, Journalist, Humo, Brussels.BRAZILAltamir A. Andrade, Journalist, www.ovizinho.com.brJeffer Castelo Branco, Presidente, ACPO - Associaï¿½ï¿½o de Consciï¿½ncia ï¿½ Prevenï¿½ï¿½o Ocupacional.Maria Lï¿½cia Prandi, Deputada Estadual, Assemblï¿½ia Legislativa do Estado de Sï¿½o Paulo.BELARUS Eugeniy Lobanov, Project co-ordinator, Foundation for Realization of Ideas, Minsk. BULGARIAMilena Bokova, Executive Director, TIMEï¿½Ecoprojects Foundation, Sofia.CANADAColleen Cooney, Elementary School Principal (retired), Ontario Health Advocacy Association, Coldwater, Ontario.Elke Babiuk, Production assistant and webmaster for the journal FLUORIDE, Calgary, Alberta.Dr. Rosalie Bertell, Retired Founder and President, International Institute of Concern for Public Health, Toronto.Donna Bird, concerned consumer, Calgary, Alberta.Salina Braganza, Health Practitioner, Calgary, Alberta.Susan De Rosa, Toronto, Ontario.Michael Downey, Freelance health and science writer, Toronto.Richard G. Foulkes, MD, former health adviser to the government of British Columbia, who also signs ï¿½in fond memory of the late Anne Anderson who worked so hard on this issue for many years."Ella Haley, PhD, Assistant Professor, Centre for Global and Social Analysis, Athabasca University, Edmonton, Alberta.Lorna Hancock, Founding Director, Health Action Network Society (Canada's largest consumer health organization), 'Who's Who in Canada' for 15 years, Burnaby.David R. Hill, M.A., M.Sc, P.Eng., Professor Emeritus, University of Calgary, Calgary, Alberta.Melissa Johnson ND, Naturopathic Doctor, Ottawa, Ontario.Eleanor Kenny, Creston, British Columbia. Hardy Limeback, DDS, PhD, Head of Preventive Dentistry, University of Toronto and former President of the Canadian Association of Dental Research.Mary Logue, Parksville, British Columbia.Norm Martin, Creston, British Columbia. Pat Martin, Director, East Kootenay Environmental Society-Creston Valley Branch, Creston, B.C. Brian D. McLean, B.Sc. D.D.S., Barrie, Ontario.Michelle Meyer, ND, Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine , Ottawa, Ontario.Marion Odell, RN (retired), Vice President, International Institute of Concern for Public Health , Toronto.Maureen Reilly, Clean Water Campaign, East Canada chapter, Sierra Club of Canada.Richard Riley, B.P.H.E., D.D.S., Huntsville, Ontario.Dorothy Goldin Rosenberg, PhD, MES, Associate Member of the School of Graduate Studies of the University of Toronto, Course Director: Environmental Health, Transformative Higher Eduction and Policy Change, Toronto.Dr. O.M. Sawiak, D.D.S., Chairman, Perio Committtee of the International academy of Oral Medicine and Toxicology, Mississauga, Ontario. Richard Smyth, DDS, General Dentistry, Huntsville, Ontario.L. Stoffman, Board of Directors, Labour Environmental Alliance Society.Charlene & Martin Wieler, Winnipeg.CZECH REPUBLICProf. Dr. Jiri Patocka, DSc, King Charles University, Prague.Anna Strunecka, PhD, Professor of Physiology, King Charles University, Prague.DENMARKClaus Hancke, MD, Specialist in General Medicine, Copenhagen.ETHIOPIAYalemtsehay Mekonnen, PhD, Department of Biology, Addis Ababa University.FRANCEPatrick Chapuis, President, Ass. de Sauvegarde du Patrimoine et du Cadre de Vie de Solerieux, Solerieux.Rï¿½my Coulet, Manager, SARL, SudexFrance.Michel Guerin, Researcher, CADDI.Evelyne Matthews, Yoga Teacher "Les Dï¿½serts" 35580 Saint-Senoux. Paul Matthews, Artist and Writer "Les Dï¿½serts" 35580 Saint-Senoux. Pierre-Emmanuel Neurohr, Director of CNIID, National Center for Independent Information on Waste, Paris.Alain Vï¿½rignon, Member of the permanent bureau of AIPRI (International Association for the Protection against the Ionising Rays ), Toulon.Christian Villaume, Researcher, Inserm.Franck Yonnet, PhD, Chercheur en Sciences economiques, Laboratoire PHARE Paris-I Panthï¿½on Sorbonne, Paris. GERMANYPeter Malaise, Board Member of PalmPool, Cologne. HAUEENOSAUNEE NATIONHenry Lickers, Scientific Co-chair Environmental Task Force, Haueenosaunee Nation.HUNGARYDr. Miklos Bely, National Institute of Rheumatology, Budapest.INDIAK.S. Balasubramanian, Joint Secretary, The Madras Presidency Homoeopathic Association Active Member of Exnora International, India and City Waterways Monitoring Programme (WAMP).Rajiv Bhatt, PRAKRUTI, Bombay.Ajay Chandak, President PRINCE (Promoters & Researchers In Non Conventional Energy), Jankibai Trust., Dhule, Maharashtra.Bharati Chaturvedi, Director, Chintan Environmental Research and Action Group, New Delhi.N. J. Chinoy, PhD, Zoology Department, Gujarat University, Ahmedabad.Ashish Fernandes, Ecologist Asia, Mumbai.Ms. Sneha Gill, PBVM, Coordinator GAD, UKSVK, Noida, Uttar Pradesh. L.S.M. Hasan Fizal, Advocate, High Court, Chennai, Tamil Nadu, Senate Member-Youth Affairs, Exnora International, Chennai.Debi Goenka, Member-Activist, Bombay Environmental Action Group.Manu Gopalan, Toxics Campaigner, Greenpeace India, Bangalore.Jayakumar C., for Thanal, Thiruvananthapuram, Kerala.Tushar Kant Joshi, Head, Centre for Occupational and Environmental Health, Lok Nayak Hospital, New Delhi.Gopal Krishna, Environment Journalist, Toxics Link, New Delhi. Kisan Mehta Save Bombay Committee, Bombay.Xavier Manjooran, SJ, President Rajpipla Social Service Society, Rajpipla, Gujarat.T.K.Ramkumar, Principal Advisor, Exnora International, Coordinator, Citizens' Waterways and Water Bodies Monitoring Program (WAMP).Leo Rebello, ND, PhD, DSc, Director, Natural Health Centre, Bombay. Bittu Saghal, Ecologist Asia, Mumbai.A. K. Susheela, PhD, FASc, FAMS, Executive Director, Fluorosis Research & Rural Development Foundation, Delhi. S.Unnikrishnan, River Research Group, Chalakudy River Protection Council, Thrissur, Kerala.IRELANDNiall ï¿½ Brolchï¿½in, Spokesperson of the Galway Green Party, Galway.Rosie Cargin, Kinsale Environment Watch.Kieran Cunnane, Chairperson, Galway for a Safe Environment, Galway.John Gormley TD, Health Spokesperson, Green Party.Irish Dentists Opposing Fluoridation, www.idof.net.Irish Doctorsï¿½ Environmental Association, Ireland.Ruth McGrath, PhD, Co-ordinator of Voice of Irish Concern for the Environment.Robert Pocock, Stop Fluoridation Campaigner with Voice of Irish Concern for the Environment.Dr Andrew Rynne, General practitioner, writer, human rights activist, founder of Clane General Hospital, Co. Kildare. ISRAELShlomi Ben-Arush, Israel Union for Environmental Defense, Tel Aviv.Elizabeth Ramsay, Teacher, journalist and author, Jerusalem.Gur Rotem, MSc, Ecologist, Permaculture.Irit Rotem, Veterinarian.Shimon Tsuk, MSc, Hydrologist, Science Department, Israel Union for Environmental Defense,Tel Aviv.Maria Westerman, laboratory technician, Hadassah Hospital, Ein Kerem,Loty Zilberman, MSc, Chemical and toxicological consultant., Tel Aviv.ITALYJosef Hasslberger, La Leva di Archimede - Association for Freedom of Choice in Health, Rome.JAPANKenji Akiniwa, DDS, Editor of the Journal of Japanese Society For Fluoride Research, Tokyo.Mikiko Fukuda, Volunteer, Greenpeace.Masatoshi Hirata, Volunteer, Greenpeace.Tomoya Inyaku, Communications, Greenpeace.Noriko Kanashige, Fundraiser, Greenpeace.Junji Kato, MD, Member of Medwatcher Japan, and the Director of the Miyachiyo Kato Clinic.Tohru Murakami, DDS, PhD, Vice President, Japanese Society for Fluoride Research.Momako Nakamura, Volunteer, Greenpeace.Kenichi Narita, DDS, Vice President of Japanese Society for Fluoride Research, Director of Sumon Village Dental Office.Tomoko Nose, Volunteer, Greenpeace.Noriko Oyama, Fundraiser, Greenpeace.Junichi Sato, Toxics campaign director, Greenpeace.Ayako Sekine, Climate campaign director, Greenpeace.Keiko Shirokawa, Media officer, Greenpeace.Kazue Suzuki, Volunteer, Greenpeace.Setsuko Yamamoto, Representative, Non-Incineration Citizens.JORDANHoma Darmani, PhD, Associate Professor of Cell Biology/Microbiology, Jordan University of Science and Technology, Irbid.MALAYSIAS.M. Mohamed Idris, President of the Consumers' Association of Penang, and Sahabat Alam Malaysia (Friends' of the Earth Malaysia).Mageswari Sangaralingam, Research Officer, Consumers' Association of Penang .World Alliance for Breastfeeding Action (WABA), (www.waba.org.my), Penang.NETHERLANDSDr. J. Begemann, Dentist, Roosendaal.Tjarko Holtjer, Director of Harmonic Health - Free Forever, Amsterdam.Hans C. Moolenburgh, M.D., Author, "Fluoride, the Freedom Fight," Haarlem.Fred Neelissen, The Dutch Biological Dentist Organisation.NEW ZEALANDDr. Robert Anderson, Member, Physicians and Scientists for Responsible Genetics, Tauranga. Laurie Brett, General Dental Practitioner, Whangarei.Don G. Church, Chartered Accountant, Fluoride Action Group, Ashburton.Sylvia Cole, Wairoa.Michael Godfrey, MBBS, Chairman, NZ Academy of Oral Medicine and Toxicology, Tauranga.Imelda Hitchcock, Former Chairperson, Timaru Fluoride Free Association, Timaru.Timothy Leitch, Chartered Loss Adjuster and former City Councillor, North Shore City.Warren Snow, Manager, Envision New Zealand.Bruce Spittle, MB, ChB, FRANZCP, Senior Lecturer, Department of Psychological Medicine, Dunedin School of Medicine, University of Otago , Dunedin.Bill Wilson, Member, Fluoride Action Network, North Shore City.NEPALRam Charitra Sah, Staff Scientist, PRO PUBLIC, Kathmandu, Nepal NORWAY Brad Smith, Toxics Campaigner, Greenpeace, Oslo. PUERTO RICOAlliance for a Sustainable Management of Our Residues (AMANESER). Mision Industrial de Puerto Rico (MIPR) PHILIPPINESAntonio Claparols, President, Ecological Society of the PhilippinesJavier M. Claparols, Director, Ecological Society of the Philippines.Gigie Cruz, Environmentalist/Architect.Von Hernandez, Goldman prize winner 2003, Toxics Campaigner, Greenpeace International, Manilla.Abigail Jabines, GAIA secretariat, GAIA, Manilla.Sonia Mendoza, Mother Earth Unlimited.Romeo F. Quijano, M.D, Professor, College of Medicine, Univ. of the Philippines, Manila.Lou Valencia-Arsenio, Advocacy Program Officer, Caritas Manila, Manila.POLANDDariusz Chlubek MD, PhD, Department of Biochemistry and Chemistry, Pomeranian Medical University, Szczecin.Pawel Gluszynski, Chairman, Waste Prevention Association "3R".SINGAPOREGaurav Vaidya, Undergraduate, Department of Biological Sciences, National University of Singapore.SLOVENIAMaja Baydaz Solce, President of DEA Club- Citizens' Anti-toxics Action, Ankaran.SOUTH AFRICARodney Bishop, Pr Eng, Principal Engineer, Water Department, CMC Administration, Cape Town.Mario Antonio Bowers, Member, Water Institute of South Africa, Cape Town.Trish Davies, Johannesburg.Nico Liebenberg Pr. Eng., B. Eng., MIMESA, Technical Services, Mossel Bay Municipality, Mossel Bay.Marie-Lou Roux, Executive Officer: Habitat Council, Cape Town.Walter Veith, Professor of Medical Bio-Science, University of Western Cape, Bellville.Mervyn Wright, Area Manager (North), Bulk Water Dept,Water Services Directorate, City of Cape Town. SOUTH KOREAJung-gab Ahn, Detective, Police Station of Northern PohangKyung-sook Ahn, MD, Green-Biz.Kun-su An, Head official, Chungbuk Migrant Worker's Center Byung-cheol Bae, Physical Therapist, Kyungsang Hospital Dae-hyun Bae, Physical Therapist, Kyungsan Elder Hospital So-young Bae, Student, Daegu University.Hong-chul Byun, Editor, GreenReviewHyun-suk Byun, Teacher, Mochung Elementary school Sang-hee Cha, Lecturer, Andong Science College Yong-hye Chang, HousewifeCheong-hyun Cheong, Manager, Daewoo Motor Sales Co Yoo-hyun Cho, Managing Director, Pohang green consumers' network.Hyun-ju Choi, Physical Therapist, Kyungsang Hospital Sang-il Choi, Author of 'Stop! Fluoridation'.Sung-Gak Choi, Writer, Nature Peace.Young-sook Chun, Head of Section, Choyoohyun Tax Information Office.Sang-myung Chung, Painter. Young-sil Do, Manager, Daejeon Citizens' coalition for Economic Justice Dae-hyun Ha, Worker, Daegu Catholic University Seung-soo Ha, Lawyer.Sun-joo Ha, Vice-president, Hansalim coop. Chung-ho Ham, Student, Choong-pook Univ Eun-hye Ham, Reporter, The Research Institute for the Differently Abled People Rights In Korea Cheng-suk Hong, Vice-chairman, Chung-buk KDLP Joung Hee Hong, Housewife Jung-pyo Hong, Manager, Culture Center of The Research Institute for the Differently Abled People Rights In Korea Byung-su Hwang, Worker, plusmake Sung-su Hwang, MD, Neuro-surgeon, Teagu medical center. Tae-soon Hwang, Member, Buddhist Group Kwon-ouk Jang, Physical Therapist, Kyungsang Hospital Sung-ik Jang, Editor of Environment & Life.Sung-soo Jang, Professor, Chonbuk University.Sun-hyun Jo, Physical Therapist, Kyungsang Hospital Young Jun, Priest.Chang-sup Jung, Head of Section, YEN Co., Ltd. Sang-myung Jung, Painter, Nature Peace.Soo-geun Jung, Head of Sales Dept, GreenReview Beom-hyeon Kim, Worker, YEN.Byung-hyuk Kim, Head official, CR coop Chang-soo Kim, Standing-representative, Gwangju-Jeonnam Greenkorea United.Gui-wan Kim, MD, Jesus Hospital. Hai-sook Kim, Representative, Chongju History & Culture School Hee-young Kim, Manager, Pohang Green Consumers Network Hyung-chil Kim, Coordinate Director, Gwangju-Jeonnam Greenkorea United.In-cheol Kim, Head of planning Dept, Gwangju-Jeonnam Greenkorea United.Jeong-soog Kim, Teacher, Ancheun Middle School.Ji-eun Kim, Worker, Dongwon Metal co. Jin-guk Kim, MD, 'Deagu-Kyungpook Association of Physicians for Humanism'.Jong-Chul Kim, Editor of the Green Review.Jong-pil Kim, Volunteer, Gwangju-Jeonnam Greenkorea United Joo-sung Kim, Researcher, Sociology Institute of Keimung Univ.Jung-seok Kim, Worker, OUTFOOTJun-ho Kim, MinisterKi-hyun Kim, Member, Eco-Education Center 'Ter'Ki-jung Kim, Worker, Kumoh ENG co., Ltd. Kyung-jung Kim, Head of Education Dept, Chungbuk-KFEM Man-hee Kim, worker, LG computer co. Ltd. Min-jyung Kim, Manager, Job Rehabilitation Mi-kyung Kim, Staff, Chongju YWCA Myoung-shik Kim, Member, Chongju citizen action group Myung-gon Kim, Head officer, Choyoohyun Tax Information Office Sang-beom Kim, Member, Chongju citizen action group Soo-jin Kim, Head official, Nature Trail-For the Beauty of This Earth.Sun-ae Kim, Member, Chongju citizen action group Sung-a Kim, Physical Therapist, Kyungsang Hospital Sun-hee Kim, Volunteer, Gwangju-Jeonnam Greenkorea United.Sun-kyung Kim, Manager, Daegu-Kyungpook Association of Physicians for Humanism Tae-jong Kim, Minister, Sarmter Church Tae-kyeung Kim, Head official, baedudaegan of corea Tae-sik Kim, Teacher, Ga-duk Middle school Yi-young Kim, Director, Mirae Mental Health Center Yong-joo Kim, MD, Orthopatic surgeon.Young-ho Kim, Priest, Coordinate Director of Korea National Coalition against Fluoridation.Ho-keun Kwak, Manager, Chungbuk-KDLP Jung-soo Kwon, Worker, Daegu Agenda 21 Ki-yun Kwon, Head of Department, Jikji Press Eun-sook Kwoun, Head of Education Dept, chungbuk differently abled women united.Byung-chul Lee, Coordinate Director of Green Korea United.Chang-soo Lee, MD, Kimpo Cheil Hospital.Duk-ja Lee, Chief Director, Hanwool coop.Eun-jeong Lee, Housewife Goang-hee Lee, Publisher, Newspaper 'Hanuri' Ho-heun Lee, Worker, GreenReview Hyun-ho Lee, Head of Department, Daejeon Citizens' coalition for Economic Justice.Jang-hee Lee, Physical Therapist, Kyungsang Hospital Jea-seung Lee, Professor, Chonbuk University.Jeong-hwa Lee, MD, 'Deagu-Kyungpook Association of Physicians for Humanism'.Jin-yon Lee, Worker, YEN Co., Ltd, Jin-young Lee, Member, Chongju citizen action group Jung-sub Lee, Worker, Daejeon Hansalim Kwang-jin Lee, Executive officer, Daejeon Citizens' coalition for Economic Justice.Nam-sook Lee, Teacher, Anyang High school Sang-kook Lee, executive officer of 'Hansalim'.Seung-ryul Lee, Professor of English Literature, Yeognam University. Sook-hee Lee, Manager, Kyungsang Hospital Sook-ja Lee, Chief, Green WorldSoon-sook Lee, Director of Bureau, Women's Environmental ForumSoung-woo Lee, Chief of planning Section, Jikji Press Tae-gyo Lee, Head of Dept, The Research Institute for the Differently Abled People Rights In Korea Woo-dong Lee Woong Lee, Coordinate Director, Nature Trail-For the Beauty of This Earth.Yeon-sook Lee, Reporter, Catholic News <PBC>Yoo-jung Lee, Manager, Culture Center of The Research Institute for the Differently Abled People Rights In Korea Chang-woo Lim, Representative, Chongju citizen action group Hyun-ja Lim, Student, Kyungpook University.Jai-tai Lim, Manager, Korea Highway Co. So-youn Lim, Worker, The Research Institute for the Differently Abled People Rights In Korea Sung-moo Lim, Chief of policy-planning Section, Daegu-KTU Sook-young Moon, Head official, Pohang Green Consumers Network Yo-won Nam, Chief director/Publisher of 'Environment & Life'.Jin-young Noh, Member, Daegu-KDLP Soon-il Noh, Lawyer. Tae-maeng Noh, MD, 'Deagu-Kyungpook Association of Physicians for Humanism'.Mi-sun O, Teacher, Seo-won High School Se-hyun O, Worker, Kyungsang Hospital Young-chol Oh, Manager, The Research Institute for the Differently Abled People Rights In KoreaByung-sang Park, Ph.D in Biology, Head of 'Nature Trail for the Beauty of this Earth' Sang-hyeon Park, Teacher, Chongju Mechanical Engineering High School Choong-il Park, Member, Daegu-KDLP Eun-hee Park, Student, Sung-Kong-Hoe UniversityGae-myoung Park, Member, Eco-Education Center 'Ter' Hyun-ju Park, Staff, Daejen-Chongnam Greenkorea UnitedHye-Young Park, Professor of English Literature, Yeungnam University, Kyeunsan-si, Kyeung-buk.Hyeong-gyoo Park, Ph.D., MD. In-geum Park, MD, Sunchon Hospital.Jea-il Park, President of 'Hansalim'.Jung-a Park, HousewifeJung-hyun Park, Executive officer, Daejeon-Chungnam Greenkorea United.Mi-suk Park, Administer, Chongju-KFEMOk-soon Park, The Research Institute for the Differently Abled People Rights In Korea Sung-hee Park, Manager, Culture Center of The Research Institute for the Differently Abled People Rights In Korea Sun-jung Park, Teacher, Chongju Hyewon School Wan-hee Park, Head official, Eco-Education Center 'Ter'.In-won Ryu, Manager, Gong-ju Credit Union Ji-youn Ryu, Manager, Forest of Life Yung-ju Ryu, Teacher, O-chang Middle school Suk-jae Seo, Worker, Kumoh ENG co., Ltd.Eun-jung Shin, Physical Therapist, Kyungsang Hospital Je-in Shin, Chief Director, Eco-Education Center 'Ter'.Ji-min Shin, Manager, The Research Institute for the Differently Abled People Rights In Korea Min-a Shin, Occupational Therapist, Kyungsang Hospital Sang-suk Shin, Worker, GreenReview Myung-ok Sim, Member, Buddhist Group Seon-hui Sin, Housewife Bum-chol Soh, Minister, Taekwang Church.Jung-ok Son, International Certified Public Accountant Bang-ho Song, Representative, Citizens' Coalition for Health.Kwang-yik Song, MD, 'Deagu-Kyungpook Association of Physicians for Humanism'.Mi-jung Song, Member, Chongju citizen action groupHan-tae Suh, MD. Youn-kyo Suh, Speech Therapist, Seobu Rehabilitation center Young-ja suh, Teacher, Hungduk Elementary school Chang Ok Sung, Teacher, Manseung Elementary school Woo-hyun Sung, Member, Chongju citizen action group Byung-chol Sur, Secretary-general, Pohang YMCA Han-tae Sur, MD, Mokpo Health & Environment Research. Hyung-sook Sur, Co-representative, Korea National coalition Against Fluoridation.Young-soo Tag, Office worker, Hana Bank Joon-min Yeo, Reporter, The Research Institute for the Differently Abled People Rights In Korea Kwang-oh Yi, Ph.D, in Psychology, Professor at Yeungnam University.Bong-hee Yoo, Professor, Chonbuk University.Duk-joon Yoo, Manager, FOMOCOM Co., LtdJong-bem Yoo, Assistant director of general affairs, Chungbuk Branch of Korea Confederation For Trade Union Hee-kyong Yoon, Teacher, Ryul-ryang Middle school Jang-won Yoon, Professor, Chonbuk University.Jung-sang Yoon, Office Worker Jung-sook Yoon, Housewife.Sung-hee Yoon, Chairman, Sangdang-Gu KDLP June-jong Yu, Occupational Therapist, Kyungsang HospitalSong-hyeon Yun, Member, Eco education Center TerPlus:69 Members of Hansalim Coop31 Members of Hanwool Coop25 Graduate Students at Chonbuk University23 Members of Taegu City Gas Engineering Co., Ltd.13 Members of Jeonju District Tax Office10 Daegu-Korea Federation for Bicycles Movement10 Members of Nature trail - For Beauty of This Earth 7 Members of Choyoohyun Tax Information OfficeSPAINJosep Puig, PhD, Engineer, Earth Day, Barcelona, Catalonia.SWEDENDr. Arvid Carlsson, Nobel laureate for Medicine, 2000.SWITZERLANDKonradin Kreuzer, Dipl. Ing. Chem. ETH, Founder and leader of the Forum fï¿½r verantwortbare Anwendung der Wissenschaft (Forum for Responsible Application of Science ) since 1973.TAIWANGeorge Chen, Managing Director, Taiwan Watch Institute.Dr. Chin-Cheng Chou, Associate Professor of Veterinary Public Health Department of Veterinary Medicine, National Taiwan University.Herlin Hsieh, Researcher, Taiwan Watch Institute.THAILANDTara Buakamsri, Toxics Campaigner, Greenpeace Southeast Asia, Bangkok.UNITED KINGDOMPaul Armstrong, Organiser of 'End the FIB' (Fluoridation In Bedfordshire) campaign, http://www.fluorideinbeds.org,[/URL] Bedfordshire.Frank Banks, Erdington, BirminghamNaomi Browton, Secretary, REACT!, Canterbury Alliance for Incinerator Alternatives, Canterbury.Nikki Clarke, Chair/Swerve the SWERF Community Campaign Group.Jill Cliffe, Co-ordinator, Dover District Friends of the Earth, Kent.Andrew D Ferguson, Director, Argot Ergo Business Writing Services, Glasgow.Ronald Gill, Honorary Chair, Anti-Fluoridation East Midlands.Edward Goldsmith, Founding Editor of The Ecologist, and President of The Climate Initiatives Fund. Richmond.Zac Goldsmith, Editor, The Ecologist.Green Party of England & WalesBarry Groves, PhD, Author of "Fluoride: Drinking Ourselves to Death?",Oxford.Gordon Hillman, Visiting Professor of Paleo-ethno Botany, University College, London.C. Vyvyan Howard, MB, ChB, PhD, FRCPath, Senior Lecturer, Developmental Toxico-Pathology Group, Department of Human Anatomy and Cell Biology, University of Liverpool.Cllr. Darren Johnson AM, Leader of the Green Party Group in the London Assembly, London.Helen Kimball-Brooke LCPH MARH, homeopath, London.Susan King, Fluoride Exposure Network, Leicester.Raven LeFay, Independent Researcher in Holistic Science, Schumacher College, Dartington, Devon.Greg Macgregor, Secretary, REACT!, Canterbury Alliance for Incinerator Alternatives, Canterbury.David Maddock, Safe Water Society, Research Officer, Southampton.Chris McGarry, Secretary, Green Party, Northampton.Andrew Meyer, Practitioner of Classical Homoeopathy, Registered with Society of Homoeopaths.H. S. Micklem, Dphil, Emeritus Professor of Immunobiology, University of Edinburgh.Julie Parry, Reiki Master, Member of National Pure Water Association, Crewe, Cheshire, England.Matthew Rhys-Roberts, electronics engineer and environmental researcher, Starchaser IndustriesLtd. Ralph Ryder, President, Communities Against Toxics, Ellesmere Port.Eleanor Scott, Toxics and Waste campaigner, Canterbury Friends of the Earth.Phil Scott, Vice Chair and Secretary, Sandwich Action Group for the Environment, Kent.Dorothy Skrytek, Co-ordinator, Derby Friends of the Earth, Derby.Gina Ulgen, Cambridge.Alan Watson, Chartered Engineer, Director of Public Interest Consultants, Swansea.Anthony Wong, Bachelor of Dental Surgery, London. UNITED STATESPhillip M. Allen, MD, PhD, Enviro-Health Concerns, Wichita, Kansas. .Mary Lou Albert, Co-Chair of Vermont Citizens Against Fluoridated Water, Bennington, Vermont.Peter Alteri Jr., Water/Sewer Superintendent for the Town of CortlandvilleCortland, New York.Richard Anthony, Richard Anthony Associates, San Diego, California.Cindy Asrir, Co-Chair, Nebraska Green Party, Omaha, Nebraska.Susan Augustoni, Superior, Colorado.Peter Bailey, PhD, Professor of English, St Lawrence University, NY.Henry Baker, East Flat Rock, North Carolina.Vicki Baker, RN, Former Onondaga County Legislator, Syracuse, New York.Lucille Balukian, President, Citizens' Alliance for Progressive Health AwarenessPaoli, Pennsylvania. Margaret Kent Bass, PhD, Associate Professor of English, St. Lawrence University, NY.Steven R. Bean, Chair, Ann Arbor Environmental Commission, Ann Arbor, Michigan.Marilyn Beattie, in loving memory of my father, Walter H. Miller, who gave nearly 50 years of his life to the fight against fluoridation.W.Dexter Bellamy, PhD, microbiology emeritis, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York.Martha Bevis, Houston, Texas.Debbie Bishop, Administrative Secretary, St. Lawrence University, NY.Angela Brantley, Solid Waste Program Manager, City of Monterey, California.Fred Briggs, Concerned citizen and loving father, Harvard, Illinois.Robert G. Briggs, Electrical Engineer (retired), Hawaii Citizens for Safe Drinking Water, Kailua, Hawaii.Brightspirit, executive director, People for Environmental Action and Children's Health, Spokane, Washington.Jennifer Brodersen, concerned consumer, Okaloosa County, Florida.Clarence Brown, MD, US Army Colonel, (ret.), Massachusetts.Shirley M. Brown, RN, (ret.), Massachusetts.Will Bullock, Health Therapist, Carmel, California.Debbie Burch, BSN, Austin,Texas.Gene Burke, N.D. (Hon), Director-founder-- Santa Monicans for SAFE Drinking Water, Santa Monica, California.Albert Burgstahler, PhD, Professor Emeritus of Chemistry, University of Kansas, Lawrence, Kansas.Anna Maria Caldara, Author, Director One Clean World, Pennsylvania.Kate Caldwell, Assistant Director of Career Services, St. Lawrence University, NY.Lynne Campbell, Executive Director, Oregon Citizens for Safe Drinking Water, Oregon.Robin Campbell, M.A., freelance writer, Sandpoint, Idaho.Doyle Canning, Organizing Director, Institute for Social Ecology Biotechnology Project, Vermont.Neil J. Carman, PhD, Clean air program director Sierra Club Lone Star Chapter (for identification only) Austin, Texas.Don Caron, Composer, President of People for Environmental Action and Children's Health, Spokane, Washington.Robert J. Carton, PhD (Environmental Science), Former Chief, Environmental Compliance, U.S. Army Medical Research and Materiel Command, Fort Detrick, Maryland.Adrian Chang, BS Electrical Engineering, USN Nuclear Engineer (ret), Oahu Citizens for Safe Drinking Water, Honolulu.Andrea Chasen, Longmeadow Health and Environment Initiatiave, Longmeadow, Massachusetts.Kenneth Church, PhD, Assistant Professor of History, St. Lawrence University, NY.Michael Colby, Executive Director Food & Water/Wild Matters, Montpelier, Vermont.John Collins, PhD, Assistant Professor of Global Studies, St Lawrence University, NY.Ellen Connett, Director, Fluoride Action Network Pesticide Project, Canton, NY.Michael Connett, Web Manager/Researcher, Fluoride Action Network, Burlington, Vermont.Paul Connett, PhD, Professor of Chemistry, St. Lawrence University, Canton, NY.Gary A Corn, East Flat Rock, North Carolina.Pat Costner, Senior Scientist, Greenpeace International.Connie Crew, RN, LMT, Phoenix, Arizona.Ronnie Cummins, National Director, Organic Consumers Association, Little Marais, Minnesota.Kathleen A. Curtis, Executive Director, Citizens' Environmental Coalition, Albany, NY.Edna R. Dana, Associate Director of Telecommunications, St. Lawrence University, NY.Lindsey E. Daniels, Waco, Texas.Robert Darling, Horse Shoe, North Carolina.Stephen Day, PhD, Visiting Assistant Professor of Government, St. Lawrence University, NY.Stephen A. Dean, DC, President Massachusetts Communities for Pure Water, Springfield, Massachusetts.Robert DeGraaff, PhD, Professor of English, St. Lawrence University, NY. Armand DeLaurel M.S., Little Rock, Arkansas.Tony Del Plato, Health & Safety Trainer, Ithaca, NY.Michael F. Dolan, PhD, Department of Geosciences, UMASS, Amherst,Massachusetts.Kimberly Ead, Director, Peace & Human Rights Project, Peace & Justice Center, Vermont.Ann Eagan, West Queens Greens, Sunnyside, NY.Jane Eaton, Science librarian, St. Lawrence University, Canton, NY.Lynn H. Ehrle, MEd, Senior Research Fellow, Cancer Prevention Coalition, Chicago, Illinois.Thomas Ellis, Co-Chair of Board of Directors of Citizens' Environmental Coalition, Albany, New York. Wendy Emmert, El Cajon, California.Samuel S. Epstein, MD, Professor Emeritus Environmental & Occupational Medicine, University of Illinois at Chicago School of Public Health, and Chairman, Cancer Prevention Coalition, Chicago, Illinois.Mike Ewall, Environmental Researcher and Organizer, Activists' Center for Training In Organizing and Networking (ACTION Center, www.actionpa.org), Philadelphia, PA.Sally Fallon, President, The Weston A. Price Foundation.George B. Ferrell, Dallas, Pennsylvania.Carolyn Filippi, University Registrar, St. Lawrence University, Canton, NY.Rich Fischer, DDS, Past President of the International Academy of Oral Medicine & Toxicology, Alexandria, Virginia.Marc D. Flack, D.D.S., F.A.G.D A./ F.I.A.O.M.T., Founder, S.A.F.E. (Science Against Fluoride in the Environment) Salt Lake City, Utah. Naomi Flack, EdM, Cofounder, New York State Coalition Opposed to Fluoridation, West Palm Beach, Florida.Alima Frank, Birmingham, Alabama. Celeste Frank, Nursing student at University of Southern Florida, Tampa Florida.Elun Gabriel, PhD, Visiting Assistant Professor of History, St. Lawrence University, NY.Sarah Gates, PhD, Adjunct Assistant Professor of English, St. Lawrence University, NY.Raymond A. Gauger, Centreville, Virginia.Audrey Glimpse, East Flat Rock, North Carolina.Kenneth R. Glimpse, M.E., East Flat Rock, North Carolina.Paul Goettlich, Mindfully.org, Berkeley, California.Elahu Sustarsic Gosney, Molecular Biologist, Ohio University, Athens, Ohio.Jahiah Gosney, Athens, Ohio.Ken Gould, PhD, Professor of Sociology, St. Lawrence University, Canton, NY.Steven N. Green, DDS, Past-President, Holistic Dental AssociationMiami, Florida.Thomas Greene, PhD, Professor of Psychology, St. Lawrence University, Canton, NY.Joel Griffiths, Investigative journalist (ret), New York City.Margaret Gutowsky, Hendersonville, North Carolina.William Hamilton, Chief Operator Village of Canton water supply, Canton, NY. Steve Hamm, Member of Green Party of Washington State and US Green party delegate.Amy A. Hansen, MSW, Texas Bucket Brigade (for identification only), Houston, Texas.Curtis and Linda Harrington, Parents of 7 children who need to be protected, Ladysmith, Wisconsin.Halstead Harrison, PhD, Professor Emeritus, Atmospheric Sciences Dept., University of Washington, Seattle, Washington.Paul Hawken, Director, Natural Capital Institute, Sausalito, California.Howie Hawkins, Green Party, Syracuse NY.David Henderson, PhD, Assistant Professor of Music, St. Lawrence University, NY.Martha R. Herbert, MD, PhD, Pediatric Neurologist, Boston, Massachusetts.W. Robert Hetrick, PhD, Retired, Clinical Psychologist, Kansas.Dr. Donald Hillman, Professor Emeritus, Department of Animal Science, Michigan State University, East Lansing, Michigan. William J. Hirzy, PhD, Vice-President, National Treasury Employees Union, Chapter 280, US EPA, Washington, DC.Liz Hollenbeck, Graduate Assistant, St. Lawrence University, NY.Michael Horn, Los Angeles, California.Dean Howell, ND, Tonasket, Washington State.Trisha Howell, M.A., Howell Canyon Press, Snohomish, Washington State. Bobbie Hulse, McPherson, Kansas.Corinne Irwin, Austin, Texas. Sarah Janssen, MD, PhD, Freeport, Illinois.Carrie Johns, PhD, Assoc. Professor of Environmental Studies, St. Lawrence University, Canton, NY.Bobette S. Jones, JD, Medical Integration Services, LLC, Seattle, Washington.Maureen Jones, Citizens for Safe Drinking Water, California.Victoria Jordan, Chair Tompkins County Green Party, NY.David Kennedy, DDS, Past President of the Institute Academy for Oral Medicine and Toxiolcogy.Peter G. Keyes, Director, Water Or Waste, Sacramento, California.Alice Kichty, Ellwood City Pennsylvania.Nancy Kloepfer, Hendersonville, North Carolina.Daniel Knapp, PhD, President, Urban Ore, Inc, Berkeley, California.Anita Marie Knight, St. Petersburg, Florida. Bob Krasowski, The Zero Waste Collier County Group, Florida.Lennart Krook, DVM, PhD, Professor of Pathology, Emeritus, Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y.Susan E. Krow, Pueblo West, Colorado.Linda Langness, PhD, Co-Chair, Boundary County Concerned Citizens, Bonners Ferry, Idaho.Phyllis Laufer, M.Ed., Nazareth, Pennsylvania.John R. Lee, MD, Sebastopol, California.Nathaniel S. Lehrman, MD, former Clinical Director, Kingsboro Psychiatric Center, Brooklyn, New York.Ann Leonard, International Co-Coordinator, GAIA (Global Alliance for Incinerator Alternatives), Berkeley, California.Howard Lieberman, DC, Cortland, New York.Bebe Lising-Jowell, Registered Health Information Administrator, Lower Rio Grande Valley, Texas.Mary Ann Litchfield, Member of the Green party, Fulteney, NY.Timothy Logan, NYC Environmental Justice Alliance, NYC.Carlos A. Lugo, Dependant/Co-user of natural resources of this planet, St Petersburg, Florida.Seï¿½n D. Mac an Airchinnigh, Post Falls, Idaho.Firuzeh Mahmoudi, MSES, MPA, Health Care Without Harm International Coordinator.Lynn Margulis, PhD, Distinguished University Professor of Geoscience, 1999 Recipient of National Medal of Science, Department of Geosciences, UMASS, Amherst, Massachusetts.Roger D. Masters, PhD, Nelson A. Rockefeller Professor of Government Emeritus, Department of Government, Dartmouth College, Hanover, New Hampshire. L.D. McClanahan, PhD, Psychiatrist, Athens, Ohio.H. Lewis McKinney, PhD, Professor Emeritus of the History of Science, University of Kansas.John K. McNabb, Jr., Cohasset, Massachusetts.Cory Mermer, Civil Engineer, Westfield, New Jersey. Bernard W. Miltenberger, Member of the Board of Directors of the Pure Water Committee of Western Maryland, Cumberland, Maryland.Ronald R. Minor, VMD, PhD, Professor of Biomedical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY. Joseph M. Mitchell, Jr., La Canada, California.Anne Monck, Associate Director of Service/Community-based Learning, St. Lawrence University, NY.Peter Montague, PhD, Editor, Rachelï¿½s Environment and Health News, New Brunswick, New Jersey.Deborah E. Moore, PhD, Director, Second Look, Worcester, Massachusetts.Pat Moreell, Citizens for Safe Drinking Water, South Florida Chapter, Boca Raton, Florida.Ann Elizabeth Morris, BS, MS, Science Teacher (retired), San Antonio, Texas. Jeffrey Morris, Ph.D., Economist with Sound Resource Management, Durham, NCMothers Organized to Stop Environmental Sins (M.O.S.E.S), Dallas, Texas. Rafat Mottaghian, Registered Nurse, Nob Hill Health Care Center. San Francisco.Edward Mulhauser, Chair, Government Oversight Committee, People for Environmental Act


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Hi,Here is a petition by emminent scientific professionals to end the misrepresentation of the pro-Fluoride case.Has Flux EVIDENCE (independent of their scepticism on Fluoride) against each one of these proving they are "disreputable". A Petition to all Governments Practicing, and all Organizations Supporting, Water Fluoridation Released: September 2003 A Petition to all Governments Practicing, and all Organizations Supporting, Water Fluoridation We, the undersigned members of the scientific, academic and professional communities, and others promoting sound public health policy worldwide, call upon professional associations and government agencies in Australia, Brazil, Canada, Ireland, Israel, Malaysia, New Zealand, Singapore, South Africa, the UK and the US, to bring scientific integrity to the issue of water fluoridation. To this end, we urge them: 1) To examine carefully all the literature which pertains to fluoridation's dangers and benefits, in an open, honest and transparent manner. We urge them to hear from experts on both sides of this issue who are prepared to give their testimony under oath before a truly independent scientific panel, the membership of which is approved by both sides. 2) To collect fundamental data such as fluoride levels in the bones and pineal glands, measured during autopsy, and the prevalence of skeletal fluorosis and hypersensitivity/intolerance to fluoride, of those who have lived for various lengths of times in fluoridated areas, as well as using dental fluorosis (tooth mottling) as a bio-marker to investigate the possible dangers to children of being exposed to excessive levels of fluoride at an early age. 3) To halt immediately the practice of using untested and industrial grade waste materials (such as hexafluorosilicic acid from the phosphate fertilizer industry) in water fluoridation programs. 4) To renounce the use of any intimidatory pressures on those professionals whose research or review has led them to adopt an anti-fluoridation position. 5) To renounce the widespread practice of misrepresenting scientific results in order to achieve the fluoridation of more water supplies.6) Either to defend water fluoridation in open public debate or to halt the practice forthwith. (To see the appeal that brought about this petition, click here)--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Current Signatories Include (see complete listing below) :- Dr. Arvid Carlsson, Pharmacologist, Nobel Laureate in Medicine in 2000, Sweden; - Robert J. Carton, PhD, Past-President, EPA Headquarters Union, Washington, DC, USA; - Michael Colby, Executive Director, Food & Water Journal, Vermont, USA;- Paul Connett, PhD, Professor, Chemistry, St. Lawrence University, USA; - Pat Costner, Senior Scientist, Greenpeace International; - Mark Diesendorf, PhD, Director, Sustainability Centre Pty Ltd, Australia; - Samuel S. Epstein, MD, Author of "The Politics of Cancer"; - Dr Doug. N. Everingham, Former Federal Minister of Health, Australia; - Michael Godfrey, Chairman, New Zealand Academy of Oral Medicine and Toxicology; - Edward Goldsmith, Founding Editor, The Ecologist; - Green Party of England & Wales;- Toxics Campaign directors for Greenpeace in Australia, India, Japan, Philippines and Thailand; - Lorna Hancock, Founding Director, Health Action Network Society, Canada; - Paul Hawken, Author, "The Ecology of Commerce" and "Natural Capitalism"; - Von Hernandez, Goldman Prize winner 2003, Toxics Campaigner, Greenpeace International, Phillipines; - William J. Hirzy, PhD, Vice-President, EPA Headquarters Union, Washington, DC, USA; - C. Vyvyan Howard, MB, ChB, PhD, FRCPath, Senior Lecturer, Developmental Toxico-Pathology Group, Department of Human Anatomy and Cell Biology, University of Liverpool; - S.M. Mohamed Idris, President, Friends of the Earth, Malaysia;- Irish Dentists Opposing Fluoridation, Ireland; - Henry Lickers, Scientific Co-chair, Environmental Task Force, Haueenosaunee Nation;- Hardy Limeback, DDS, PhD, Head, Preventive Dentistry, University of Toronto & Former President, Canadian Association for Dental Research; - Lynn Margulis, PhD, Recipient of the 1999 National Medal of Science, University of Massachusetts, USA; - Ronald R. Minor, VMD, PhD, Professor of Biomedical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY;- Peter Montague, PhD, Editor, Rachelï¿½s Environment and Health News, New Brunswick, New Jersey;- Ralph Ryder, President, Communities Against Toxics, England; - Andrew Rynne, GP, Medical Writer, Irish Medical News, Ireland; - Mageswari Sangaralingam, Research Officer, Consumers Association of Penang (CAP), Malaysia;- Albert Schatz, Ph.D., Co-Discoverer of the antibiotic streptomycin, Professor Emeritus, Temple University, Philadelphia;- Ted Schettler, MD, MPH, Science Director, Science and Environmental Health Network, USA; - Gar Smith, Editor Emeritus, Earth Island Journal, Berkeley, California; - John Stauber, Executive Director, Center for Media & Democracy, Co-author of ï¿½Toxic Sludge Is Good For You!" and "Trust Us, We're Experts!ï¿½, Madison, Wisconsin;|- A. K. Susheela, PhD, FASc, FAMS, Executive Director, Fluorosis Research & Rural Development Foundation, Delhi;- Terri Swearingen, RN, Goldman Prize winner 1997, Executive Director, Tri-State Environmental Council, Chester, West Virginia;- World Alliance for Breastfeeding Action, Penang, Malyasia.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------SIGNATORIES: From 40 countries: Argentina, Australia, Austria, Bangladesh, Belarus, Belgium, Brazil, Bulgaria, Canada, Czech Republic, Denmark, Ethiopia, France, Germany, Hungary, India, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Jordan, Malaysia, Nepal, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Philippines, Poland, Puerto Rico, Singapore, Slovenia, South Africa, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Taiwan, Thailand, UK and the USA. NOTE: The listing of institutions/organizations (following the individual's name) is for identification purposes only, and is not meant to imply institutional support for the petition.ARGENTINARaul A. Montenegro, PhD, Professor of Evolutionary Biology, National University of Cordoba and President of FUNAM (Fundaciï¿½n para la defensa del ambient.AUSTRALIAAlwyn Anstis, Secretary, Ballarat Health Watch, Ballarat, Victoria.Linda Apps, Communications officer, Greenpeace.Ante, Joe, John, Mara, Marina, & Miryana Baran, Melbourne.Sandra Barlow, Peace Activist and Environmentalist, Northern NSW.Viviann Birch, Natural therapist/Clinical Hypnotherapist, ViQi Synergy Natural Therapies, Melbourne.Ronald Bradley, Director, Hippocrates Health Centre of Australia, Mudgeeraba Qld.Ailsa Boyden, International Advisory Board, Fluoride Action Network, Farleigh, Queensland.Keith Boyden, Chemist-Technologist, Farleigh, Queensland.Noel Campbell, FACNEM, FASID, BDSc, LDS, Consultant, Clinical Research Scientist, Melbourne, Victoria.Jason Collins, LLB, Toxics campaign volunteer, Greenpeace.Sue Connor, Toxics campaigner, Greenpeace.Rosamund Dallow-Smith, Teacher, Sydney.Mark Diesendorf, PhD, Director, Sustainability Centre Pty Ltd, Sydney.Mark Donohoe, MD, Physician, Sydney.Bernard K. Ehrig, Traffic Supervisor, Geelong, Victoria.Vanessa Errol, Dip Physical Education, BSW CELTA, Speaker for Genethics WA, Como, Western Australia Dr Doug. N. Everingham, Former Federal Minister of Health.Annette Gade, Executor, Conservation of Rockingham Kwinana Environment .C.O.R.K.E., Kwinana, Western Australia.Katica Gracey, Melbourne. Donna Hall, concerned community member, Leopold, Geelong, Victoria.Gail Hamilton*, Project Manager Environmental Impact Management, Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority (*signing in a private capacity), Townsville, Queensland.Sonia Hamill, Geelong.Beatrice Harris, Volunteer, Greenpeace.Steve Hesse, President, Kwinana Progress Association, Kwinana, Western Australia.Anthony & Cheryl Nanette Hill, Lara, Victoria. Elaine Hollingsworth, Director, Hippocrates Health Centre of Australia, Mudgeeraba Qld. Peter Hopper, Mechanical Engineer / Environmental Consultant, Zero Waste Network, Sydney.Bradley Hughes, Internet consultant, Melange computing, Sydney.Konrad Knerr*, Center for Australian Ethical Research (*signing in a private capacity).Ulricke Kroeger, Intern, Greenpeace.Jessa Latona, Media assistant, Greenpeace.Joanne Mahony, Geelong.Katarina Markusic, Melbourne. David McRae, Community Health Officer, Bellarine Community Health, Geelong.Martina Meckel, Genetics Engineering campaigner, Greenpeace.Daniel-Lucas Novakovic, Jennings Computers, Geelong, Victoria. Genevieve O'Connell, Convenor, Wholistic Health Group, Australian Greens Victoria.Geoff Pain, PhD, Consultant scientist, Kelmscott, Western Australia.Nick Pavicic, Melbourne. Sunil Raman, Volunteer Greenpeace.Monica Richter, Corporate Environmental campaigner, Greenpeace..Sarah Roberts, Fundraising & Marketing, Greenpeace.Philip Robertson, Lecturer, Natural Medicine, Dept. Health Science, Victoria University, Victoria.Jean Ryan, Brisbane.John Alexander Ryan, Brisbane.Juliette Frances Ryan, Brisbane.Wieslawa Slomowski, retired, Cartright, NSW.Dr Mariann Lloyd-Smith, PhD, Coordinator, National Toxics Network, Inc., Rivett, ACT, Australia. Melania Stevens, Humanitarian Aid Worker. Shirley Strachan, Geelong, Victoria.Jenie Stroh, Lecturer, Physical Therapies Department, Southern School of Natural Therapies, Naturopath. Dr Philip Stowell MB, BS, FACNEM, General Practitioner, Brisbane, Queensland. Ellen Stuebe, Communications officer, Greenpeace.Andrew S Thurgood, ND, Technical Consultant and Naturopath, Health World Ltd., Brisbane, Qld. Glen S. R. Walker, Chairman, Freedom from Fluoridation in Australia, Victoria.Alan Weinstein, Strategy Matters, Sydney.Ed Wilkinson, Sydney.AUSTRIARudolf Ziegelbecker, Engineer and physicist, retired, formerly scientist at the Center for Electron Microscopy of the Technical University of Graz and at the Institute for Environmental Research at the Research Center Graz.Dr.techn. Rudolf Ziegelbecker, jun.,Technical Physicist, Professor and Koordinator of Physics at Ortwein School, Graz.BANGLADESHDr.Zafrullah Chowdhury, Projects' Coordinator, Gonoshasthaya Kendra, Dhaka.BELGIUMMaurice-Eugï¿½ne Andre, Commandant dï¿½Aviation E.R. spï¿½cialisï¿½ en protection NBCR (nuclï¿½aire, biologique, chimique, radiologique), Visï¿½.Fred De Baere, Flemish Platform Environment and Health.Prof. Dr. Luc Hens, Human Ecology Dept., Vrije Universiteit Brussel (Free University Brussels) Brussels.Johan Malcorps, Member of the Flemish Parliament (Belgium) ï¿½ AGALEV (Flemish Green Party).Pierre Piï¿½rart, Honorary Professor, Mons-Hainaut University, Mons.Dr. Eric Pluygers, Honorary Head of the Department of Oncology, Jolimont Hospital, La Louviï¿½re.Chris Vermeire, Journalist, Humo, Brussels.BRAZILAltamir A. Andrade, Journalist, www.ovizinho.com.brJeffer Castelo Branco, Presidente, ACPO - Associaï¿½ï¿½o de Consciï¿½ncia ï¿½ Prevenï¿½ï¿½o Ocupacional.Maria Lï¿½cia Prandi, Deputada Estadual, Assemblï¿½ia Legislativa do Estado de Sï¿½o Paulo.BELARUS Eugeniy Lobanov, Project co-ordinator, Foundation for Realization of Ideas, Minsk. BULGARIAMilena Bokova, Executive Director, TIMEï¿½Ecoprojects Foundation, Sofia.CANADAColleen Cooney, Elementary School Principal (retired), Ontario Health Advocacy Association, Coldwater, Ontario.Elke Babiuk, Production assistant and webmaster for the journal FLUORIDE, Calgary, Alberta.Dr. Rosalie Bertell, Retired Founder and President, International Institute of Concern for Public Health, Toronto.Donna Bird, concerned consumer, Calgary, Alberta.Salina Braganza, Health Practitioner, Calgary, Alberta.Susan De Rosa, Toronto, Ontario.Michael Downey, Freelance health and science writer, Toronto.Richard G. Foulkes, MD, former health adviser to the government of British Columbia, who also signs ï¿½in fond memory of the late Anne Anderson who worked so hard on this issue for many years."Ella Haley, PhD, Assistant Professor, Centre for Global and Social Analysis, Athabasca University, Edmonton, Alberta.Lorna Hancock, Founding Director, Health Action Network Society (Canada's largest consumer health organization), 'Who's Who in Canada' for 15 years, Burnaby.David R. Hill, M.A., M.Sc, P.Eng., Professor Emeritus, University of Calgary, Calgary, Alberta.Melissa Johnson ND, Naturopathic Doctor, Ottawa, Ontario.Eleanor Kenny, Creston, British Columbia. Hardy Limeback, DDS, PhD, Head of Preventive Dentistry, University of Toronto and former President of the Canadian Association of Dental Research.Mary Logue, Parksville, British Columbia.Norm Martin, Creston, British Columbia. Pat Martin, Director, East Kootenay Environmental Society-Creston Valley Branch, Creston, B.C. Brian D. McLean, B.Sc. D.D.S., Barrie, Ontario.Michelle Meyer, ND, Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine , Ottawa, Ontario.Marion Odell, RN (retired), Vice President, International Institute of Concern for Public Health , Toronto.Maureen Reilly, Clean Water Campaign, East Canada chapter, Sierra Club of Canada.Richard Riley, B.P.H.E., D.D.S., Huntsville, Ontario.Dorothy Goldin Rosenberg, PhD, MES, Associate Member of the School of Graduate Studies of the University of Toronto, Course Director: Environmental Health, Transformative Higher Eduction and Policy Change, Toronto.Dr. O.M. Sawiak, D.D.S., Chairman, Perio Committtee of the International academy of Oral Medicine and Toxicology, Mississauga, Ontario. Richard Smyth, DDS, General Dentistry, Huntsville, Ontario.L. Stoffman, Board of Directors, Labour Environmental Alliance Society.Charlene & Martin Wieler, Winnipeg.CZECH REPUBLICProf. Dr. Jiri Patocka, DSc, King Charles University, Prague.Anna Strunecka, PhD, Professor of Physiology, King Charles University, Prague.DENMARKClaus Hancke, MD, Specialist in General Medicine, Copenhagen.ETHIOPIAYalemtsehay Mekonnen, PhD, Department of Biology, Addis Ababa University.FRANCEPatrick Chapuis, President, Ass. de Sauvegarde du Patrimoine et du Cadre de Vie de Solerieux, Solerieux.Rï¿½my Coulet, Manager, SARL, SudexFrance.Michel Guerin, Researcher, CADDI.Evelyne Matthews, Yoga Teacher "Les Dï¿½serts" 35580 Saint-Senoux. Paul Matthews, Artist and Writer "Les Dï¿½serts" 35580 Saint-Senoux. Pierre-Emmanuel Neurohr, Director of CNIID, National Center for Independent Information on Waste, Paris.Alain Vï¿½rignon, Member of the permanent bureau of AIPRI (International Association for the Protection against the Ionising Rays ), Toulon.Christian Villaume, Researcher, Inserm.Franck Yonnet, PhD, Chercheur en Sciences economiques, Laboratoire PHARE Paris-I Panthï¿½on Sorbonne, Paris. GERMANYPeter Malaise, Board Member of PalmPool, Cologne. HAUEENOSAUNEE NATIONHenry Lickers, Scientific Co-chair Environmental Task Force, Haueenosaunee Nation.HUNGARYDr. Miklos Bely, National Institute of Rheumatology, Budapest.INDIAK.S. Balasubramanian, Joint Secretary, The Madras Presidency Homoeopathic Association Active Member of Exnora International, India and City Waterways Monitoring Programme (WAMP).Rajiv Bhatt, PRAKRUTI, Bombay.Ajay Chandak, President PRINCE (Promoters & Researchers In Non Conventional Energy), Jankibai Trust., Dhule, Maharashtra.Bharati Chaturvedi, Director, Chintan Environmental Research and Action Group, New Delhi.N. J. Chinoy, PhD, Zoology Department, Gujarat University, Ahmedabad.Ashish Fernandes, Ecologist Asia, Mumbai.Ms. Sneha Gill, PBVM, Coordinator GAD, UKSVK, Noida, Uttar Pradesh. L.S.M. Hasan Fizal, Advocate, High Court, Chennai, Tamil Nadu, Senate Member-Youth Affairs, Exnora International, Chennai.Debi Goenka, Member-Activist, Bombay Environmental Action Group.Manu Gopalan, Toxics Campaigner, Greenpeace India, Bangalore.Jayakumar C., for Thanal, Thiruvananthapuram, Kerala.Tushar Kant Joshi, Head, Centre for Occupational and Environmental Health, Lok Nayak Hospital, New Delhi.Gopal Krishna, Environment Journalist, Toxics Link, New Delhi. Kisan Mehta Save Bombay Committee, Bombay.Xavier Manjooran, SJ, President Rajpipla Social Service Society, Rajpipla, Gujarat.T.K.Ramkumar, Principal Advisor, Exnora International, Coordinator, Citizens' Waterways and Water Bodies Monitoring Program (WAMP).Leo Rebello, ND, PhD, DSc, Director, Natural Health Centre, Bombay. Bittu Saghal, Ecologist Asia, Mumbai.A. K. Susheela, PhD, FASc, FAMS, Executive Director, Fluorosis Research & Rural Development Foundation, Delhi. S.Unnikrishnan, River Research Group, Chalakudy River Protection Council, Thrissur, Kerala.IRELANDNiall ï¿½ Brolchï¿½in, Spokesperson of the Galway Green Party, Galway.Rosie Cargin, Kinsale Environment Watch.Kieran Cunnane, Chairperson, Galway for a Safe Environment, Galway.John Gormley TD, Health Spokesperson, Green Party.Irish Dentists Opposing Fluoridation, www.idof.net.Irish Doctorsï¿½ Environmental Association, Ireland.Ruth McGrath, PhD, Co-ordinator of Voice of Irish Concern for the Environment.Robert Pocock, Stop Fluoridation Campaigner with Voice of Irish Concern for the Environment.Dr Andrew Rynne, General practitioner, writer, human rights activist, founder of Clane General Hospital, Co. Kildare. ISRAELShlomi Ben-Arush, Israel Union for Environmental Defense, Tel Aviv.Elizabeth Ramsay, Teacher, journalist and author, Jerusalem.Gur Rotem, MSc, Ecologist, Permaculture.Irit Rotem, Veterinarian.Shimon Tsuk, MSc, Hydrologist, Science Department, Israel Union for Environmental Defense,Tel Aviv.Maria Westerman, laboratory technician, Hadassah Hospital, Ein Kerem,Loty Zilberman, MSc, Chemical and toxicological consultant., Tel Aviv.ITALYJosef Hasslberger, La Leva di Archimede - Association for Freedom of Choice in Health, Rome.JAPANKenji Akiniwa, DDS, Editor of the Journal of Japanese Society For Fluoride Research, Tokyo.Mikiko Fukuda, Volunteer, Greenpeace.Masatoshi Hirata, Volunteer, Greenpeace.Tomoya Inyaku, Communications, Greenpeace.Noriko Kanashige, Fundraiser, Greenpeace.Junji Kato, MD, Member of Medwatcher Japan, and the Director of the Miyachiyo Kato Clinic.Tohru Murakami, DDS, PhD, Vice President, Japanese Society for Fluoride Research.Momako Nakamura, Volunteer, Greenpeace.Kenichi Narita, DDS, Vice President of Japanese Society for Fluoride Research, Director of Sumon Village Dental Office.Tomoko Nose, Volunteer, Greenpeace.Noriko Oyama, Fundraiser, Greenpeace.Junichi Sato, Toxics campaign director, Greenpeace.Ayako Sekine, Climate campaign director, Greenpeace.Keiko Shirokawa, Media officer, Greenpeace.Kazue Suzuki, Volunteer, Greenpeace.Setsuko Yamamoto, Representative, Non-Incineration Citizens.JORDANHoma Darmani, PhD, Associate Professor of Cell Biology/Microbiology, Jordan University of Science and Technology, Irbid.MALAYSIAS.M. Mohamed Idris, President of the Consumers' Association of Penang, and Sahabat Alam Malaysia (Friends' of the Earth Malaysia).Mageswari Sangaralingam, Research Officer, Consumers' Association of Penang .World Alliance for Breastfeeding Action (WABA), (www.waba.org.my), Penang.NETHERLANDSDr. J. Begemann, Dentist, Roosendaal.Tjarko Holtjer, Director of Harmonic Health - Free Forever, Amsterdam.Hans C. Moolenburgh, M.D., Author, "Fluoride, the Freedom Fight," Haarlem.Fred Neelissen, The Dutch Biological Dentist Organisation.NEW ZEALANDDr. Robert Anderson, Member, Physicians and Scientists for Responsible Genetics, Tauranga. Laurie Brett, General Dental Practitioner, Whangarei.Don G. Church, Chartered Accountant, Fluoride Action Group, Ashburton.Sylvia Cole, Wairoa.Michael Godfrey, MBBS, Chairman, NZ Academy of Oral Medicine and Toxicology, Tauranga.Imelda Hitchcock, Former Chairperson, Timaru Fluoride Free Association, Timaru.Timothy Leitch, Chartered Loss Adjuster and former City Councillor, North Shore City.Warren Snow, Manager, Envision New Zealand.Bruce Spittle, MB, ChB, FRANZCP, Senior Lecturer, Department of Psychological Medicine, Dunedin School of Medicine, University of Otago , Dunedin.Bill Wilson, Member, Fluoride Action Network, North Shore City.NEPALRam Charitra Sah, Staff Scientist, PRO PUBLIC, Kathmandu, Nepal NORWAY Brad Smith, Toxics Campaigner, Greenpeace, Oslo. PUERTO RICOAlliance for a Sustainable Management of Our Residues (AMANESER). Mision Industrial de Puerto Rico (MIPR) PHILIPPINESAntonio Claparols, President, Ecological Society of the PhilippinesJavier M. Claparols, Director, Ecological Society of the Philippines.Gigie Cruz, Environmentalist/Architect.Von Hernandez, Goldman prize winner 2003, Toxics Campaigner, Greenpeace International, Manilla.Abigail Jabines, GAIA secretariat, GAIA, Manilla.Sonia Mendoza, Mother Earth Unlimited.Romeo F. Quijano, M.D, Professor, College of Medicine, Univ. of the Philippines, Manila.Lou Valencia-Arsenio, Advocacy Program Officer, Caritas Manila, Manila.POLANDDariusz Chlubek MD, PhD, Department of Biochemistry and Chemistry, Pomeranian Medical University, Szczecin.Pawel Gluszynski, Chairman, Waste Prevention Association "3R".SINGAPOREGaurav Vaidya, Undergraduate, Department of Biological Sciences, National University of Singapore.SLOVENIAMaja Baydaz Solce, President of DEA Club- Citizens' Anti-toxics Action, Ankaran.SOUTH AFRICARodney Bishop, Pr Eng, Principal Engineer, Water Department, CMC Administration, Cape Town.Mario Antonio Bowers, Member, Water Institute of South Africa, Cape Town.Trish Davies, Johannesburg.Nico Liebenberg Pr. Eng., B. Eng., MIMESA, Technical Services, Mossel Bay Municipality, Mossel Bay.Marie-Lou Roux, Executive Officer: Habitat Council, Cape Town.Walter Veith, Professor of Medical Bio-Science, University of Western Cape, Bellville.Mervyn Wright, Area Manager (North), Bulk Water Dept,Water Services Directorate, City of Cape Town. SOUTH KOREAJung-gab Ahn, Detective, Police Station of Northern PohangKyung-sook Ahn, MD, Green-Biz.Kun-su An, Head official, Chungbuk Migrant Worker's Center Byung-cheol Bae, Physical Therapist, Kyungsang Hospital Dae-hyun Bae, Physical Therapist, Kyungsan Elder Hospital So-young Bae, Student, Daegu University.Hong-chul Byun, Editor, GreenReviewHyun-suk Byun, Teacher, Mochung Elementary school Sang-hee Cha, Lecturer, Andong Science College Yong-hye Chang, HousewifeCheong-hyun Cheong, Manager, Daewoo Motor Sales Co Yoo-hyun Cho, Managing Director, Pohang green consumers' network.Hyun-ju Choi, Physical Therapist, Kyungsang Hospital Sang-il Choi, Author of 'Stop! Fluoridation'.Sung-Gak Choi, Writer, Nature Peace.Young-sook Chun, Head of Section, Choyoohyun Tax Information Office.Sang-myung Chung, Painter. Young-sil Do, Manager, Daejeon Citizens' coalition for Economic Justice Dae-hyun Ha, Worker, Daegu Catholic University Seung-soo Ha, Lawyer.Sun-joo Ha, Vice-president, Hansalim coop. Chung-ho Ham, Student, Choong-pook Univ Eun-hye Ham, Reporter, The Research Institute for the Differently Abled People Rights In Korea Cheng-suk Hong, Vice-chairman, Chung-buk KDLP Joung Hee Hong, Housewife Jung-pyo Hong, Manager, Culture Center of The Research Institute for the Differently Abled People Rights In Korea Byung-su Hwang, Worker, plusmake Sung-su Hwang, MD, Neuro-surgeon, Teagu medical center. Tae-soon Hwang, Member, Buddhist Group Kwon-ouk Jang, Physical Therapist, Kyungsang Hospital Sung-ik Jang, Editor of Environment & Life.Sung-soo Jang, Professor, Chonbuk University.Sun-hyun Jo, Physical Therapist, Kyungsang Hospital Young Jun, Priest.Chang-sup Jung, Head of Section, YEN Co., Ltd. Sang-myung Jung, Painter, Nature Peace.Soo-geun Jung, Head of Sales Dept, GreenReview Beom-hyeon Kim, Worker, YEN.Byung-hyuk Kim, Head official, CR coop Chang-soo Kim, Standing-representative, Gwangju-Jeonnam Greenkorea United.Gui-wan Kim, MD, Jesus Hospital. Hai-sook Kim, Representative, Chongju History & Culture School Hee-young Kim, Manager, Pohang Green Consumers Network Hyung-chil Kim, Coordinate Director, Gwangju-Jeonnam Greenkorea United.In-cheol Kim, Head of planning Dept, Gwangju-Jeonnam Greenkorea United.Jeong-soog Kim, Teacher, Ancheun Middle School.Ji-eun Kim, Worker, Dongwon Metal co. Jin-guk Kim, MD, 'Deagu-Kyungpook Association of Physicians for Humanism'.Jong-Chul Kim, Editor of the Green Review.Jong-pil Kim, Volunteer, Gwangju-Jeonnam Greenkorea United Joo-sung Kim, Researcher, Sociology Institute of Keimung Univ.Jung-seok Kim, Worker, OUTFOOTJun-ho Kim, MinisterKi-hyun Kim, Member, Eco-Education Center 'Ter'Ki-jung Kim, Worker, Kumoh ENG co., Ltd. Kyung-jung Kim, Head of Education Dept, Chungbuk-KFEM Man-hee Kim, worker, LG computer co. Ltd. Min-jyung Kim, Manager, Job Rehabilitation Mi-kyung Kim, Staff, Chongju YWCA Myoung-shik Kim, Member, Chongju citizen action group Myung-gon Kim, Head officer, Choyoohyun Tax Information Office Sang-beom Kim, Member, Chongju citizen action group Soo-jin Kim, Head official, Nature Trail-For the Beauty of This Earth.Sun-ae Kim, Member, Chongju citizen action group Sung-a Kim, Physical Therapist, Kyungsang Hospital Sun-hee Kim, Volunteer, Gwangju-Jeonnam Greenkorea United.Sun-kyung Kim, Manager, Daegu-Kyungpook Association of Physicians for Humanism Tae-jong Kim, Minister, Sarmter Church Tae-kyeung Kim, Head official, baedudaegan of corea Tae-sik Kim, Teacher, Ga-duk Middle school Yi-young Kim, Director, Mirae Mental Health Center Yong-joo Kim, MD, Orthopatic surgeon.Young-ho Kim, Priest, Coordinate Director of Korea National Coalition against Fluoridation.Ho-keun Kwak, Manager, Chungbuk-KDLP Jung-soo Kwon, Worker, Daegu Agenda 21 Ki-yun Kwon, Head of Department, Jikji Press Eun-sook Kwoun, Head of Education Dept, chungbuk differently abled women united.Byung-chul Lee, Coordinate Director of Green Korea United.Chang-soo Lee, MD, Kimpo Cheil Hospital.Duk-ja Lee, Chief Director, Hanwool coop.Eun-jeong Lee, Housewife Goang-hee Lee, Publisher, Newspaper 'Hanuri' Ho-heun Lee, Worker, GreenReview Hyun-ho Lee, Head of Department, Daejeon Citizens' coalition for Economic Justice.Jang-hee Lee, Physical Therapist, Kyungsang Hospital Jea-seung Lee, Professor, Chonbuk University.Jeong-hwa Lee, MD, 'Deagu-Kyungpook Association of Physicians for Humanism'.Jin-yon Lee, Worker, YEN Co., Ltd, Jin-young Lee, Member, Chongju citizen action group Jung-sub Lee, Worker, Daejeon Hansalim Kwang-jin Lee, Executive officer, Daejeon Citizens' coalition for Economic Justice.Nam-sook Lee, Teacher, Anyang High school Sang-kook Lee, executive officer of 'Hansalim'.Seung-ryul Lee, Professor of English Literature, Yeognam University. Sook-hee Lee, Manager, Kyungsang Hospital Sook-ja Lee, Chief, Green WorldSoon-sook Lee, Director of Bureau, Women's Environmental ForumSoung-woo Lee, Chief of planning Section, Jikji Press Tae-gyo Lee, Head of Dept, The Research Institute for the Differently Abled People Rights In Korea Woo-dong Lee Woong Lee, Coordinate Director, Nature Trail-For the Beauty of This Earth.Yeon-sook Lee, Reporter, Catholic News <PBC>Yoo-jung Lee, Manager, Culture Center of The Research Institute for the Differently Abled People Rights In Korea Chang-woo Lim, Representative, Chongju citizen action group Hyun-ja Lim, Student, Kyungpook University.Jai-tai Lim, Manager, Korea Highway Co. So-youn Lim, Worker, The Research Institute for the Differently Abled People Rights In Korea Sung-moo Lim, Chief of policy-planning Section, Daegu-KTU Sook-young Moon, Head official, Pohang Green Consumers Network Yo-won Nam, Chief director/Publisher of 'Environment & Life'.Jin-young Noh, Member, Daegu-KDLP Soon-il Noh, Lawyer. Tae-maeng Noh, MD, 'Deagu-Kyungpook Association of Physicians for Humanism'.Mi-sun O, Teacher, Seo-won High School Se-hyun O, Worker, Kyungsang Hospital Young-chol Oh, Manager, The Research Institute for the Differently Abled People Rights In KoreaByung-sang Park, Ph.D in Biology, Head of 'Nature Trail for the Beauty of this Earth' Sang-hyeon Park, Teacher, Chongju Mechanical Engineering High School Choong-il Park, Member, Daegu-KDLP Eun-hee Park, Student, Sung-Kong-Hoe UniversityGae-myoung Park, Member, Eco-Education Center 'Ter' Hyun-ju Park, Staff, Daejen-Chongnam Greenkorea UnitedHye-Young Park, Professor of English Literature, Yeungnam University, Kyeunsan-si, Kyeung-buk.Hyeong-gyoo Park, Ph.D., MD. In-geum Park, MD, Sunchon Hospital.Jea-il Park, President of 'Hansalim'.Jung-a Park, HousewifeJung-hyun Park, Executive officer, Daejeon-Chungnam Greenkorea United.Mi-suk Park, Administer, Chongju-KFEMOk-soon Park, The Research Institute for the Differently Abled People Rights In Korea Sung-hee Park, Manager, Culture Center of The Research Institute for the Differently Abled People Rights In Korea Sun-jung Park, Teacher, Chongju Hyewon School Wan-hee Park, Head official, Eco-Education Center 'Ter'.In-won Ryu, Manager, Gong-ju Credit Union Ji-youn Ryu, Manager, Forest of Life Yung-ju Ryu, Teacher, O-chang Middle school Suk-jae Seo, Worker, Kumoh ENG co., Ltd.Eun-jung Shin, Physical Therapist, Kyungsang Hospital Je-in Shin, Chief Director, Eco-Education Center 'Ter'.Ji-min Shin, Manager, The Research Institute for the Differently Abled People Rights In Korea Min-a Shin, Occupational Therapist, Kyungsang Hospital Sang-suk Shin, Worker, GreenReview Myung-ok Sim, Member, Buddhist Group Seon-hui Sin, Housewife Bum-chol Soh, Minister, Taekwang Church.Jung-ok Son, International Certified Public Accountant Bang-ho Song, Representative, Citizens' Coalition for Health.Kwang-yik Song, MD, 'Deagu-Kyungpook Association of Physicians for Humanism'.Mi-jung Song, Member, Chongju citizen action groupHan-tae Suh, MD. Youn-kyo Suh, Speech Therapist, Seobu Rehabilitation center Young-ja suh, Teacher, Hungduk Elementary school Chang Ok Sung, Teacher, Manseung Elementary school Woo-hyun Sung, Member, Chongju citizen action group Byung-chol Sur, Secretary-general, Pohang YMCA Han-tae Sur, MD, Mokpo Health & Environment Research. Hyung-sook Sur, Co-representative, Korea National coalition Against Fluoridation.Young-soo Tag, Office worker, Hana Bank Joon-min Yeo, Reporter, The Research Institute for the Differently Abled People Rights In Korea Kwang-oh Yi, Ph.D, in Psychology, Professor at Yeungnam University.Bong-hee Yoo, Professor, Chonbuk University.Duk-joon Yoo, Manager, FOMOCOM Co., LtdJong-bem Yoo, Assistant director of general affairs, Chungbuk Branch of Korea Confederation For Trade Union Hee-kyong Yoon, Teacher, Ryul-ryang Middle school Jang-won Yoon, Professor, Chonbuk University.Jung-sang Yoon, Office Worker Jung-sook Yoon, Housewife.Sung-hee Yoon, Chairman, Sangdang-Gu KDLP June-jong Yu, Occupational Therapist, Kyungsang HospitalSong-hyeon Yun, Member, Eco education Center TerPlus:69 Members of Hansalim Coop31 Members of Hanwool Coop25 Graduate Students at Chonbuk University23 Members of Taegu City Gas Engineering Co., Ltd.13 Members of Jeonju District Tax Office10 Daegu-Korea Federation for Bicycles Movement10 Members of Nature trail - For Beauty of This Earth 7 Members of Choyoohyun Tax Information OfficeSPAINJosep Puig, PhD, Engineer, Earth Day, Barcelona, Catalonia.SWEDENDr. Arvid Carlsson, Nobel laureate for Medicine, 2000.SWITZERLANDKonradin Kreuzer, Dipl. Ing. Chem. ETH, Founder and leader of the Forum fï¿½r verantwortbare Anwendung der Wissenschaft (Forum for Responsible Application of Science ) since 1973.TAIWANGeorge Chen, Managing Director, Taiwan Watch Institute.Dr. Chin-Cheng Chou, Associate Professor of Veterinary Public Health Department of Veterinary Medicine, National Taiwan University.Herlin Hsieh, Researcher, Taiwan Watch Institute.THAILANDTara Buakamsri, Toxics Campaigner, Greenpeace Southeast Asia, Bangkok.UNITED KINGDOMPaul Armstrong, Organiser of 'End the FIB' (Fluoridation In Bedfordshire) campaign, http://www.fluorideinbeds.org,[/URL] Bedfordshire.Frank Banks, Erdington, BirminghamNaomi Browton, Secretary, REACT!, Canterbury Alliance for Incinerator Alternatives, Canterbury.Nikki Clarke, Chair/Swerve the SWERF Community Campaign Group.Jill Cliffe, Co-ordinator, Dover District Friends of the Earth, Kent.Andrew D Ferguson, Director, Argot Ergo Business Writing Services, Glasgow.Ronald Gill, Honorary Chair, Anti-Fluoridation East Midlands.Edward Goldsmith, Founding Editor of The Ecologist, and President of The Climate Initiatives Fund. Richmond.Zac Goldsmith, Editor, The Ecologist.Green Party of England & WalesBarry Groves, PhD, Author of "Fluoride: Drinking Ourselves to Death?",Oxford.Gordon Hillman, Visiting Professor of Paleo-ethno Botany, University College, London.C. Vyvyan Howard, MB, ChB, PhD, FRCPath, Senior Lecturer, Developmental Toxico-Pathology Group, Department of Human Anatomy and Cell Biology, University of Liverpool.Cllr. Darren Johnson AM, Leader of the Green Party Group in the London Assembly, London.Helen Kimball-Brooke LCPH MARH, homeopath, London.Susan King, Fluoride Exposure Network, Leicester.Raven LeFay, Independent Researcher in Holistic Science, Schumacher College, Dartington, Devon.Greg Macgregor, Secretary, REACT!, Canterbury Alliance for Incinerator Alternatives, Canterbury.David Maddock, Safe Water Society, Research Officer, Southampton.Chris McGarry, Secretary, Green Party, Northampton.Andrew Meyer, Practitioner of Classical Homoeopathy, Registered with Society of Homoeopaths.H. S. Micklem, Dphil, Emeritus Professor of Immunobiology, University of Edinburgh.Julie Parry, Reiki Master, Member of National Pure Water Association, Crewe, Cheshire, England.Matthew Rhys-Roberts, electronics engineer and environmental researcher, Starchaser IndustriesLtd. Ralph Ryder, President, Communities Against Toxics, Ellesmere Port.Eleanor Scott, Toxics and Waste campaigner, Canterbury Friends of the Earth.Phil Scott, Vice Chair and Secretary, Sandwich Action Group for the Environment, Kent.Dorothy Skrytek, Co-ordinator, Derby Friends of the Earth, Derby.Gina Ulgen, Cambridge.Alan Watson, Chartered Engineer, Director of Public Interest Consultants, Swansea.Anthony Wong, Bachelor of Dental Surgery, London. UNITED STATESPhillip M. Allen, MD, PhD, Enviro-Health Concerns, Wichita, Kansas. .Mary Lou Albert, Co-Chair of Vermont Citizens Against Fluoridated Water, Bennington, Vermont.Peter Alteri Jr., Water/Sewer Superintendent for the Town of CortlandvilleCortland, New York.Richard Anthony, Richard Anthony Associates, San Diego, California.Cindy Asrir, Co-Chair, Nebraska Green Party, Omaha, Nebraska.Susan Augustoni, Superior, Colorado.Peter Bailey, PhD, Professor of English, St Lawrence University, NY.Henry Baker, East Flat Rock, North Carolina.Vicki Baker, RN, Former Onondaga County Legislator, Syracuse, New York.Lucille Balukian, President, Citizens' Alliance for Progressive Health AwarenessPaoli, Pennsylvania. Margaret Kent Bass, PhD, Associate Professor of English, St. Lawrence University, NY.Steven R. Bean, Chair, Ann Arbor Environmental Commission, Ann Arbor, Michigan.Marilyn Beattie, in loving memory of my father, Walter H. Miller, who gave nearly 50 years of his life to the fight against fluoridation.W.Dexter Bellamy, PhD, microbiology emeritis, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York.Martha Bevis, Houston, Texas.Debbie Bishop, Administrative Secretary, St. Lawrence University, NY.Angela Brantley, Solid Waste Program Manager, City of Monterey, California.Fred Briggs, Concerned citizen and loving father, Harvard, Illinois.Robert G. Briggs, Electrical Engineer (retired), Hawaii Citizens for Safe Drinking Water, Kailua, Hawaii.Brightspirit, executive director, People for Environmental Action and Children's Health, Spokane, Washington.Jennifer Brodersen, concerned consumer, Okaloosa County, Florida.Clarence Brown, MD, US Army Colonel, (ret.), Massachusetts.Shirley M. Brown, RN, (ret.), Massachusetts.Will Bullock, Health Therapist, Carmel, California.Debbie Burch, BSN, Austin,Texas.Gene Burke, N.D. (Hon), Director-founder-- Santa Monicans for SAFE Drinking Water, Santa Monica, California.Albert Burgstahler, PhD, Professor Emeritus of Chemistry, University of Kansas, Lawrence, Kansas.Anna Maria Caldara, Author, Director One Clean World, Pennsylvania.Kate Caldwell, Assistant Director of Career Services, St. Lawrence University, NY.Lynne Campbell, Executive Director, Oregon Citizens for Safe Drinking Water, Oregon.Robin Campbell, M.A., freelance writer, Sandpoint, Idaho.Doyle Canning, Organizing Director, Institute for Social Ecology Biotechnology Project, Vermont.Neil J. Carman, PhD, Clean air program director Sierra Club Lone Star Chapter (for identification only) Austin, Texas.Don Caron, Composer, President of People for Environmental Action and Children's Health, Spokane, Washington.Robert J. Carton, PhD (Environmental Science), Former Chief, Environmental Compliance, U.S. Army Medical Research and Materiel Command, Fort Detrick, Maryland.Adrian Chang, BS Electrical Engineering, USN Nuclear Engineer (ret), Oahu Citizens for Safe Drinking Water, Honolulu.Andrea Chasen, Longmeadow Health and Environment Initiatiave, Longmeadow, Massachusetts.Kenneth Church, PhD, Assistant Professor of History, St. Lawrence University, NY.Michael Colby, Executive Director Food & Water/Wild Matters, Montpelier, Vermont.John Collins, PhD, Assistant Professor of Global Studies, St Lawrence University, NY.Ellen Connett, Director, Fluoride Action Network Pesticide Project, Canton, NY.Michael Connett, Web Manager/Researcher, Fluoride Action Network, Burlington, Vermont.Paul Connett, PhD, Professor of Chemistry, St. Lawrence University, Canton, NY.Gary A Corn, East Flat Rock, North Carolina.Pat Costner, Senior Scientist, Greenpeace International.Connie Crew, RN, LMT, Phoenix, Arizona.Ronnie Cummins, National Director, Organic Consumers Association, Little Marais, Minnesota.Kathleen A. Curtis, Executive Director, Citizens' Environmental Coalition, Albany, NY.Edna R. Dana, Associate Director of Telecommunications, St. Lawrence University, NY.Lindsey E. Daniels, Waco, Texas.Robert Darling, Horse Shoe, North Carolina.Stephen Day, PhD, Visiting Assistant Professor of Government, St. Lawrence University, NY.Stephen A. Dean, DC, President Massachusetts Communities for Pure Water, Springfield, Massachusetts.Robert DeGraaff, PhD, Professor of English, St. Lawrence University, NY. Armand DeLaurel M.S., Little Rock, Arkansas.Tony Del Plato, Health & Safety Trainer, Ithaca, NY.Michael F. Dolan, PhD, Department of Geosciences, UMASS, Amherst,Massachusetts.Kimberly Ead, Director, Peace & Human Rights Project, Peace & Justice Center, Vermont.Ann Eagan, West Queens Greens, Sunnyside, NY.Jane Eaton, Science librarian, St. Lawrence University, Canton, NY.Lynn H. Ehrle, MEd, Senior Research Fellow, Cancer Prevention Coalition, Chicago, Illinois.Thomas Ellis, Co-Chair of Board of Directors of Citizens' Environmental Coalition, Albany, New York. Wendy Emmert, El Cajon, California.Samuel S. Epstein, MD, Professor Emeritus Environmental & Occupational Medicine, University of Illinois at Chicago School of Public Health, and Chairman, Cancer Prevention Coalition, Chicago, Illinois.Mike Ewall, Environmental Researcher and Organizer, Activists' Center for Training In Organizing and Networking (ACTION Center, www.actionpa.org), Philadelphia, PA.Sally Fallon, President, The Weston A. Price Foundation.George B. Ferrell, Dallas, Pennsylvania.Carolyn Filippi, University Registrar, St. Lawrence University, Canton, NY.Rich Fischer, DDS, Past President of the International Academy of Oral Medicine & Toxicology, Alexandria, Virginia.Marc D. Flack, D.D.S., F.A.G.D A./ F.I.A.O.M.T., Founder, S.A.F.E. (Science Against Fluoride in the Environment) Salt Lake City, Utah. Naomi Flack, EdM, Cofounder, New York State Coalition Opposed to Fluoridation, West Palm Beach, Florida.Alima Frank, Birmingham, Alabama. Celeste Frank, Nursing student at University of Southern Florida, Tampa Florida.Elun Gabriel, PhD, Visiting Assistant Professor of History, St. Lawrence University, NY.Sarah Gates, PhD, Adjunct Assistant Professor of English, St. Lawrence University, NY.Raymond A. Gauger, Centreville, Virginia.Audrey Glimpse, East Flat Rock, North Carolina.Kenneth R. Glimpse, M.E., East Flat Rock, North Carolina.Paul Goettlich, Mindfully.org, Berkeley, California.Elahu Sustarsic Gosney, Molecular Biologist, Ohio University, Athens, Ohio.Jahiah Gosney, Athens, Ohio.Ken Gould, PhD, Professor of Sociology, St. Lawrence University, Canton, NY.Steven N. Green, DDS, Past-President, Holistic Dental AssociationMiami, Florida.Thomas Greene, PhD, Professor of Psychology, St. Lawrence University, Canton, NY.Joel Griffiths, Investigative journalist (ret), New York City.Margaret Gutowsky, Hendersonville, North Carolina.William Hamilton, Chief Operator Village of Canton water supply, Canton, NY. Steve Hamm, Member of Green Party of Washington State and US Green party delegate.Amy A. Hansen, MSW, Texas Bucket Brigade (for identification only), Houston, Texas.Curtis and Linda Harrington, Parents of 7 children who need to be protected, Ladysmith, Wisconsin.Halstead Harrison, PhD, Professor Emeritus, Atmospheric Sciences Dept., University of Washington, Seattle, Washington.Paul Hawken, Director, Natural Capital Institute, Sausalito, California.Howie Hawkins, Green Party, Syracuse NY.David Henderson, PhD, Assistant Professor of Music, St. Lawrence University, NY.Martha R. Herbert, MD, PhD, Pediatric Neurologist, Boston, Massachusetts.W. Robert Hetrick, PhD, Retired, Clinical Psychologist, Kansas.Dr. Donald Hillman, Professor Emeritus, Department of Animal Science, Michigan State University, East Lansing, Michigan. William J. Hirzy, PhD, Vice-President, National Treasury Employees Union, Chapter 280, US EPA, Washington, DC.Liz Hollenbeck, Graduate Assistant, St. Lawrence University, NY.Michael Horn, Los Angeles, California.Dean Howell, ND, Tonasket, Washington State.Trisha Howell, M.A., Howell Canyon Press, Snohomish, Washington State. Bobbie Hulse, McPherson, Kansas.Corinne Irwin, Austin, Texas. Sarah Janssen, MD, PhD, Freeport, Illinois.Carrie Johns, PhD, Assoc. Professor of Environmental Studies, St. Lawrence University, Canton, NY.Bobette S. Jones, JD, Medical Integration Services, LLC, Seattle, Washington.Maureen Jones, Citizens for Safe Drinking Water, California.Victoria Jordan, Chair Tompkins County Green Party, NY.David Kennedy, DDS, Past President of the Institute Academy for Oral Medicine and Toxiolcogy.Peter G. Keyes, Director, Water Or Waste, Sacramento, California.Alice Kichty, Ellwood City Pennsylvania.Nancy Kloepfer, Hendersonville, North Carolina.Daniel Knapp, PhD, President, Urban Ore, Inc, Berkeley, California.Anita Marie Knight, St. Petersburg, Florida. Bob Krasowski, The Zero Waste Collier County Group, Florida.Lennart Krook, DVM, PhD, Professor of Pathology, Emeritus, Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y.Susan E. Krow, Pueblo West, Colorado.Linda Langness, PhD, Co-Chair, Boundary County Concerned Citizens, Bonners Ferry, Idaho.Phyllis Laufer, M.Ed., Nazareth, Pennsylvania.John R. Lee, MD, Sebastopol, California.Nathaniel S. Lehrman, MD, former Clinical Director, Kingsboro Psychiatric Center, Brooklyn, New York.Ann Leonard, International Co-Coordinator, GAIA (Global Alliance for Incinerator Alternatives), Berkeley, California.Howard Lieberman, DC, Cortland, New York.Bebe Lising-Jowell, Registered Health Information Administrator, Lower Rio Grande Valley, Texas.Mary Ann Litchfield, Member of the Green party, Fulteney, NY.Timothy Logan, NYC Environmental Justice Alliance, NYC.Carlos A. Lugo, Dependant/Co-user of natural resources of this planet, St Petersburg, Florida.Seï¿½n D. Mac an Airchinnigh, Post Falls, Idaho.Firuzeh Mahmoudi, MSES, MPA, Health Care Without Harm International Coordinator.Lynn Margulis, PhD, Distinguished University Professor of Geoscience, 1999 Recipient of National Medal of Science, Department of Geosciences, UMASS, Amherst, Massachusetts.Roger D. Masters, PhD, Nelson A. Rockefeller Professor of Government Emeritus, Department of Government, Dartmouth College, Hanover, New Hampshire. L.D. McClanahan, PhD, Psychiatrist, Athens, Ohio.H. Lewis McKinney, PhD, Professor Emeritus of the History of Science, University of Kansas.John K. McNabb, Jr., Cohasset, Massachusetts.Cory Mermer, Civil Engineer, Westfield, New Jersey. Bernard W. Miltenberger, Member of the Board of Directors of the Pure Water Committee of Western Maryland, Cumberland, Maryland.Ronald R. Minor, VMD, PhD, Professor of Biomedical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY. Joseph M. Mitchell, Jr., La Canada, California.Anne Monck, Associate Director of Service/Community-based Learning, St. Lawrence University, NY.Peter Montague, PhD, Editor, Rachelï¿½s Environment and Health News, New Brunswick, New Jersey.Deborah E. Moore, PhD, Director, Second Look, Worcester, Massachusetts.Pat Moreell, Citizens for Safe Drinking Water, South Florida Chapter, Boca Raton, Florida.Ann Elizabeth Morris, BS, MS, Science Teacher (retired), San Antonio, Texas. Jeffrey Morris, Ph.D., Economist with Sound Resource Management, Durham, NCMothers Organized to Stop Environmental Sins (M.O.S.E.S), Dallas, Texas. Rafat Mottaghian, Registered Nurse, Nob Hill Health Care Center. San Francisco.Edward Mulhauser, Chair, Government Oversight Committee, People for Environmental Act


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Hi,Can we all agree at least that any rational, unprejudiced person would say the case is open?To see the appeal (that mentions Gastric distress)that led to this petition see: http://www.fluoridealert.org/appeal.htm Len


----------



## lenharley (Dec 24, 2003)

Hi,Can we all agree at least that any rational, unprejudiced person would say the case is open?To see the appeal (that mentions Gastric distress)that led to this petition see: http://www.fluoridealert.org/appeal.htm Len


----------



## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

Thanks Len, I have checked it out. On another thread regarding antibiotics there is a discussion about fluoroquinolones (cipro, floxin) since side effects to tendons, bones I brought up the fact there is fluorine/flouride? in the drug. The affinity for minerals may be the cause of the adverse side effects. Joann


----------



## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

Thanks Len, I have checked it out. On another thread regarding antibiotics there is a discussion about fluoroquinolones (cipro, floxin) since side effects to tendons, bones I brought up the fact there is fluorine/flouride? in the drug. The affinity for minerals may be the cause of the adverse side effects. Joann


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Can we all agree at least that any rational, unprejudiced person would say the case is open?


No person in their right head would even remotely consider this to be anything other than pure









> quote: On another thread regarding antibiotics there is a discussion about fluoroquinolones (cipro, floxin) since side effects to tendons, bones I brought up the fact there is fluorine/flouride?


This is both irrelevant and non-sequitur.


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Can we all agree at least that any rational, unprejudiced person would say the case is open?


No person in their right head would even remotely consider this to be anything other than pure









> quote: On another thread regarding antibiotics there is a discussion about fluoroquinolones (cipro, floxin) since side effects to tendons, bones I brought up the fact there is fluorine/flouride?


This is both irrelevant and non-sequitur.


----------



## hyenaDEN5 (Sep 3, 2004)

Did you read what I said, Flux? (even though I said I don't care if you read it, I guess I do a little lol : P). Just curious. (I feel I'm setting myself up for some sort of 'diss')


----------



## hyenaDEN5 (Sep 3, 2004)

Did you read what I said, Flux? (even though I said I don't care if you read it, I guess I do a little lol : P). Just curious. (I feel I'm setting myself up for some sort of 'diss')


----------



## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

Flux, I was not talking to you! Who the h**l do you think you are? My response was to Len re: what Len posted. dumb! Joann


----------



## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

Flux, I was not talking to you! Who the h**l do you think you are? My response was to Len re: what Len posted. dumb! Joann


----------



## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

This is hopeful, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=12162452 Joann


----------



## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

This is hopeful, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=12162452 Joann


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:This is hopeful,


We need hope for what, exactly?


----------



## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:This is hopeful,


We need hope for what, exactly?


----------



## JMSIMPSON9 (Oct 4, 2004)

This is my first time posting to this board and the second time reading it. I discovered it last month as I was searching the Internet looking for something to relieve my IBS. The older I have gotten the worse my IBS has been. The last 6 months have been sheer hell with the pain and bloating.I found this thread and read the whole thing, no small feat. I decided I had nothing to lose by eliminating fluoride and tried it. What could it hurt?30 Days later I am pain free for the first time in over a year and have been pain free for that entire time, excepting one day when we were traveling and we stopped for a bite to eat. I had lemonade in the restaurant. Hours later I was in pain and so disappointed that the pain being gone for several weeks was back. The next day the pain was gone again so I researched that cities water content. Surprise, surprise, I found that the city we had lunch in had a high fluoride content in the water. Will this work for everyone? I doubt it. My guess is that different things may cause the same symptoms (including stress).Is Fluoride safe? For most people it probably is. But on the other hand, I truly believe that some people may be sensitive to it. Just like aspirin is safe for most people to take, some people die from taking it. Regardless, if your suffering, what can it hurt to experiment on yourself by eliminating possible causes? It certainly cant hurt and in my case it helped. May common sense prevail.


----------



## JMSIMPSON9 (Oct 4, 2004)

This is my first time posting to this board and the second time reading it. I discovered it last month as I was searching the Internet looking for something to relieve my IBS. The older I have gotten the worse my IBS has been. The last 6 months have been sheer hell with the pain and bloating.I found this thread and read the whole thing, no small feat. I decided I had nothing to lose by eliminating fluoride and tried it. What could it hurt?30 Days later I am pain free for the first time in over a year and have been pain free for that entire time, excepting one day when we were traveling and we stopped for a bite to eat. I had lemonade in the restaurant. Hours later I was in pain and so disappointed that the pain being gone for several weeks was back. The next day the pain was gone again so I researched that cities water content. Surprise, surprise, I found that the city we had lunch in had a high fluoride content in the water. Will this work for everyone? I doubt it. My guess is that different things may cause the same symptoms (including stress).Is Fluoride safe? For most people it probably is. But on the other hand, I truly believe that some people may be sensitive to it. Just like aspirin is safe for most people to take, some people die from taking it. Regardless, if your suffering, what can it hurt to experiment on yourself by eliminating possible causes? It certainly cant hurt and in my case it helped. May common sense prevail.


----------

