# Oh, man!



## Guest (Jul 12, 2001)

I'm someone who is extremely lactose sensitive, shall we say. The other day I spoke with my physician about some of the commercials I've been seeing on TV advertising that their medical products were having comparable results to placebo. I know that many medical pills contain lactose and that the amounts of lactose generally contained are supposed to be so miniscule that they aren't supposed to be relevent. At the same time, however, I wondered if the ads I've been seeing on TV weren't being misleading so I decided to do an internet search on placebo, the milk sugar pill, to see if people were having side effects from it. And apparently they do. An advil study claims that their products "results are similar to placebo". A lot of people assume that means there are no side effects. The results however showed that 30 some odd percent of people taking advil as well as 30 some odd percent of people taking placebo had some side effects and more specifically, 12% and 11% of those tested showed side effects that were registered as intestinal. Lactose should be removed from pills and medicines and replaced with micro-cellulous. The fact that lactose is only being used as a filler doesn't alleviate the fact binding lactose with medicine may reduce the medical benefits an individual is seeking. This is something the FDA really should think about. I don't know if any drug researchers have studied whether or not less drug benefit is obtained by people who are lactose intolerant when lactose is used as a principal filler ingredient. I do know that a recent study of US drugs manufactured for overseas consumption shocked the inspectors who found that the amounts of active ingredient in individual pills varied widely, some having too little active ingredient to be therapeutic and some having too much. Of course, all the pills were supposed to have had the exact same carefully calibrated amount of active ingredient. In a perfect world...


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:The results however showed that 30 some odd percent of people taking advil as well as 30 some odd percent of people taking placebo had some side effects


This is perfectly normal. The side effects are generally presumed *not* to be due to the placebo per se. That is, it presumed not have a direct pharmacological effect. The "effects" supposedly are induced by the brain's modulation of body function (recently this has been questioned). However, most symptoms are probably largely due to the normal fluctuations of a biological system. In other words, human machinery is not perfect and people get various symptoms from time to time. The FDA requires that all symptoms be reported.


> quote:by people who are lactose intolerant when lactose is used as a principal filler ingredient.


The lactose required to cause symptoms in a person who is "extremely sensitive" would probably require more than *ONE HUNDRED PILLS* taken at once on an empty stomach, so there is no need to be concerned about the infinitesimal doses in a single pill.------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.[This message has been edited by flux (edited 07-12-2001).]


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:The results however showed that 30 some odd percent of people taking advil as well as 30 some odd percent of people taking placebo had some side effects


This is perfectly normal. The side effects are generally presumed *not* to be due to the placebo per se. That is, it presumed not have a direct pharmacological effect. The "effects" supposedly are induced by the brain's modulation of body function (recently this has been questioned). However, most symptoms are probably largely due to the normal fluctuations of a biological system. In other words, human machinery is not perfect and people get various symptoms from time to time. The FDA requires that all symptoms be reported.


> quote:by people who are lactose intolerant when lactose is used as a principal filler ingredient.


The lactose required to cause symptoms in a person who is "extremely sensitive" would probably require more than *ONE HUNDRED PILLS* taken at once on an empty stomach, so there is no need to be concerned about the infinitesimal doses in a single pill.------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.[This message has been edited by flux (edited 07-12-2001).]


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2001)

It isn't logical or scientific to presume or assume anything at all and I don't agree with your hypothesis that it would take a hundred sugar pills to upset my stomach when I know that one lactaid tablet would suffice. As far as industry tests go, I wouldn't assume or presume they've been any more forthcoming than the tobacco industry has been until very recently regarding nicotine.


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2001)

It isn't logical or scientific to presume or assume anything at all and I don't agree with your hypothesis that it would take a hundred sugar pills to upset my stomach when I know that one lactaid tablet would suffice. As far as industry tests go, I wouldn't assume or presume they've been any more forthcoming than the tobacco industry has been until very recently regarding nicotine.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

They have done studies with people who are lactose intolerant when tested for it and fed them various amounts of lactose under blind conditions so the patient didn't know when or how much they got. For everyone who has been studied (there is always an outside chance that someone is several tens or thousands of standard deviations from the average, but the vast majority of people fall within about 3-4 standard deviations from average for just about every thing that has ever been tested for) most can tolerate the amount of lactose in 1 cup of milk which is equal usually to a pile of pills containing lactose as a filler.Is there some outside possibiltiy that someone is sensitive to the lactose in a single pill....perhaps, but that is unlikely based on the data that has been generated on lactose intolerance to date.Why you respond badly to lactose is because you do not digest it, but the happy bacteria in your colon digest it and they produce gas, etc that give you the symptoms from the lactose. These chemical reactions have not been shown to violate any of the known laws of physics or chemistry so logically when you have just a tiny amount of lactose the bacteria can only make a tiny amount of gas or other byproducts. Like everything else the smaller the dose the smaller the effect.However, the active ingredient in most pills is at a concentration that it will cause side effects as it is at a concentration high enough to cause a biological effect and is more likely to be the problem molecule.K.------------------I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html [This message has been edited by kmottus (edited 07-12-2001).]


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

They have done studies with people who are lactose intolerant when tested for it and fed them various amounts of lactose under blind conditions so the patient didn't know when or how much they got. For everyone who has been studied (there is always an outside chance that someone is several tens or thousands of standard deviations from the average, but the vast majority of people fall within about 3-4 standard deviations from average for just about every thing that has ever been tested for) most can tolerate the amount of lactose in 1 cup of milk which is equal usually to a pile of pills containing lactose as a filler.Is there some outside possibiltiy that someone is sensitive to the lactose in a single pill....perhaps, but that is unlikely based on the data that has been generated on lactose intolerance to date.Why you respond badly to lactose is because you do not digest it, but the happy bacteria in your colon digest it and they produce gas, etc that give you the symptoms from the lactose. These chemical reactions have not been shown to violate any of the known laws of physics or chemistry so logically when you have just a tiny amount of lactose the bacteria can only make a tiny amount of gas or other byproducts. Like everything else the smaller the dose the smaller the effect.However, the active ingredient in most pills is at a concentration that it will cause side effects as it is at a concentration high enough to cause a biological effect and is more likely to be the problem molecule.K.------------------I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html [This message has been edited by kmottus (edited 07-12-2001).]


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## Julia37 (May 9, 2001)

I still think that research showing LI people can digest a whole cup of milk is bogus. Was it only one study? Or copies of one study? I bet they forgot at least one variable.I know I can't tolerate that - Last May I ate at a restaurant and didn't take any lactaid. I had pasta with spinach and what appeared to be an olive oil sauce, and vesuvio chicken pieces that appeared to have a broth sauce. Exactly one hour after I ate I had the exact symptoms I used to get before I learned I'm LI - bloating in lower abdo, cramps, a BM, then fatigue the rest of the evening. If there had been any amount close to a cup of milk in that food, I would have seen it and taken lactaid.I've also noticed that when I take lactaid with dairy intensive foods - Chicago style pan pizza in this case - I don't get bloating or pains, but it passes through my system and I have a large BM within 3 hours. Also noticed the lack of energy effect. I clearly don't get much if any nutritional benefit from dairy.I think our culture, including doctors and drug companies, is in denial about the bad effects of dairy. It's food meant for a different species. It's profoundly stupid to put any dairy product in medicine, all the rationalizations in the world won't change that.


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## Julia37 (May 9, 2001)

I still think that research showing LI people can digest a whole cup of milk is bogus. Was it only one study? Or copies of one study? I bet they forgot at least one variable.I know I can't tolerate that - Last May I ate at a restaurant and didn't take any lactaid. I had pasta with spinach and what appeared to be an olive oil sauce, and vesuvio chicken pieces that appeared to have a broth sauce. Exactly one hour after I ate I had the exact symptoms I used to get before I learned I'm LI - bloating in lower abdo, cramps, a BM, then fatigue the rest of the evening. If there had been any amount close to a cup of milk in that food, I would have seen it and taken lactaid.I've also noticed that when I take lactaid with dairy intensive foods - Chicago style pan pizza in this case - I don't get bloating or pains, but it passes through my system and I have a large BM within 3 hours. Also noticed the lack of energy effect. I clearly don't get much if any nutritional benefit from dairy.I think our culture, including doctors and drug companies, is in denial about the bad effects of dairy. It's food meant for a different species. It's profoundly stupid to put any dairy product in medicine, all the rationalizations in the world won't change that.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:It isn't logical or scientific to presume or assume anything at all


In this case, it is really not a presumption, but a conclusion.


> quote:I know that one lactaid tablet would suffice.


I assume you mean lactose, not lactaid. Anyway, you can be assured lactose is *not* responsible for it because that is not how lactose intolerance comes about.


> quote:As far as industry tests go


If you are talking about clinical trials, then you are misinformed about them. Many private physicians participate in clinical trials and the data are carefully reviewed by the FDA.


> quote:I still think that research showing LI people can digest a whole cup of milk is bogus.


It is *not* bogus. The studies include...Suarez FL, Savaiano D, Levitt MD. A comparison of symptoms after the consumption of milk or lactose-hydrolyzed milk by people with self-reported severe lactose intolerance. New England Journal of Medicine 1995 Jul 6;333(1):1ï¿½4.Suarez FL, Savaiano D, Arbisi P, et al. Tolerance to the daily ingestion of two cups of milk by individuals claiming lactose intolerance. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 1997 May;65(5):1502ï¿½6.Suarez FL, Adshead J, Furne JK, et al. Lactose maldigestion is not an impediment to the intake of 1500 mg calcium daily as diary products. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 1998;68;1118ï¿½22.


> quote:I know I can't tolerate that - Last May I ate at a restaurant and didn't take any lactaid. I had pasta with spinach and what appeared to be an olive oil sauce, and vesuvio chicken pieces that appeared to have a broth sauce. Exactly one hour after I ate I had the exact symptoms I used to get before I learned I'm LI - bloating in lower abdo, cramps, a BM, then fatigue the rest of the evening. If there had been any amount close to a cup of milk in that food, I would have seen it and taken lactaid.


Where's the lactose? This seems to be evidence that your problem has another cause.


> quote:I've also noticed that when I take lactaid with dairy intensive foods - Chicago style pan pizza in this case - I don't get bloating or pains, but it passes through my system and I have a large BM within 3 hours


There probably isn't enough lactose here to produce symptoms, so I'm not sure what you are saying. If you are taking lactaid at the time, what is that going to tell you about the effects of lactose. Food like this does not pass through your system this quickly. What is passing is from some other meal.


> quote:Also noticed the lack of energy effect.


I don't get that.


> quote:I clearly don't get much if any nutritional benefit from dairy


This statement is *not* physiologically accurate. Your body cannot selectively absorb materials from all foods but not from dairy. Lactose is only the sugar component of dairy. Milk contains protein, casein, and milk fat and of course vitamins, all of which you do derive from dairy.Overall, I think what you have discovered is what has been discovered in the studies, namely, it is very difficult for people to find true associations between food and bowel symptoms and because of this, you have been misled to believe you have LI.


> quote:It's food meant for a different species.


The truth is the precise opposite--mammals have developed dairy through natural selection to feed their young. ------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:It isn't logical or scientific to presume or assume anything at all


In this case, it is really not a presumption, but a conclusion.


> quote:I know that one lactaid tablet would suffice.


I assume you mean lactose, not lactaid. Anyway, you can be assured lactose is *not* responsible for it because that is not how lactose intolerance comes about.


> quote:As far as industry tests go


If you are talking about clinical trials, then you are misinformed about them. Many private physicians participate in clinical trials and the data are carefully reviewed by the FDA.


> quote:I still think that research showing LI people can digest a whole cup of milk is bogus.


It is *not* bogus. The studies include...Suarez FL, Savaiano D, Levitt MD. A comparison of symptoms after the consumption of milk or lactose-hydrolyzed milk by people with self-reported severe lactose intolerance. New England Journal of Medicine 1995 Jul 6;333(1):1ï¿½4.Suarez FL, Savaiano D, Arbisi P, et al. Tolerance to the daily ingestion of two cups of milk by individuals claiming lactose intolerance. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 1997 May;65(5):1502ï¿½6.Suarez FL, Adshead J, Furne JK, et al. Lactose maldigestion is not an impediment to the intake of 1500 mg calcium daily as diary products. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 1998;68;1118ï¿½22.


> quote:I know I can't tolerate that - Last May I ate at a restaurant and didn't take any lactaid. I had pasta with spinach and what appeared to be an olive oil sauce, and vesuvio chicken pieces that appeared to have a broth sauce. Exactly one hour after I ate I had the exact symptoms I used to get before I learned I'm LI - bloating in lower abdo, cramps, a BM, then fatigue the rest of the evening. If there had been any amount close to a cup of milk in that food, I would have seen it and taken lactaid.


Where's the lactose? This seems to be evidence that your problem has another cause.


> quote:I've also noticed that when I take lactaid with dairy intensive foods - Chicago style pan pizza in this case - I don't get bloating or pains, but it passes through my system and I have a large BM within 3 hours


There probably isn't enough lactose here to produce symptoms, so I'm not sure what you are saying. If you are taking lactaid at the time, what is that going to tell you about the effects of lactose. Food like this does not pass through your system this quickly. What is passing is from some other meal.


> quote:Also noticed the lack of energy effect.


I don't get that.


> quote:I clearly don't get much if any nutritional benefit from dairy


This statement is *not* physiologically accurate. Your body cannot selectively absorb materials from all foods but not from dairy. Lactose is only the sugar component of dairy. Milk contains protein, casein, and milk fat and of course vitamins, all of which you do derive from dairy.Overall, I think what you have discovered is what has been discovered in the studies, namely, it is very difficult for people to find true associations between food and bowel symptoms and because of this, you have been misled to believe you have LI.


> quote:It's food meant for a different species.


The truth is the precise opposite--mammals have developed dairy through natural selection to feed their young. ------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Flux, you have mentioned many times that out of the people with fructose or lactose malabsorption, only people with IBS show symptoms if they ingest fructose or lactose. I know this is based on research you have read. However it is also true that if they stay away from fructose or lactose their symptoms disappear. So are you saying they still have an intolerance of some kind to fructose or lactose, which people without IBS don't have? Or what ,in your opinion, is going on


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Flux, you have mentioned many times that out of the people with fructose or lactose malabsorption, only people with IBS show symptoms if they ingest fructose or lactose. I know this is based on research you have read. However it is also true that if they stay away from fructose or lactose their symptoms disappear. So are you saying they still have an intolerance of some kind to fructose or lactose, which people without IBS don't have? Or what ,in your opinion, is going on


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

> quote:I know I can't tolerate that - Last May I ate at a restaurant and didn't take any lactaid. I had pasta with spinach and what appeared to be an olive oil sauce, and vesuvio chicken pieces that appeared to have a broth sauce. Exactly one hour after I ate I had the exact symptoms I used to get before I learned I'm LI - bloating in lower abdo, cramps, a BM, then fatigue the rest of the evening. If there had been any amount close to a cup of milk in that food, I would have seen it and taken lactaid.


Those are similar symptoms that alot of people have with ANY trigger food not just Lactose. Many people have those symptoms solely due to the fat content of the meal. Just because you are lactose-intolerant and some meal bothered you does not exclude the possibility that other things in the food, or other non-food triggers caused the symptoms.bonniei-- I think why flux says that is because if you take a bunch of people selected randomly and test for intolerances and ask who has what symptoms you find that many people who test intolerant have no symptoms and that many people who have symptoms are not intolerant. There isn't a good correspondance between who to the best of our testing ability is intolerant and who has symptoms. Also food intolerances are tricky because the brain is involved. It is fairly natural for your brain to associate certain foods with being sick and try to get them out of the body one way or another even if the food itself wasn't the problem in the first place. Talk to anyone who likes to get really drunk sometimes. Most of them have some drink or other they got really sick on once and can't tolerate any more. That is why they do the tests blinded so people won't know if they got the food or not. Some people only reliably get sick when they know they ate the bad thing.K.------------------I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html [This message has been edited by kmottus (edited 07-13-2001).]


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

> quote:I know I can't tolerate that - Last May I ate at a restaurant and didn't take any lactaid. I had pasta with spinach and what appeared to be an olive oil sauce, and vesuvio chicken pieces that appeared to have a broth sauce. Exactly one hour after I ate I had the exact symptoms I used to get before I learned I'm LI - bloating in lower abdo, cramps, a BM, then fatigue the rest of the evening. If there had been any amount close to a cup of milk in that food, I would have seen it and taken lactaid.


Those are similar symptoms that alot of people have with ANY trigger food not just Lactose. Many people have those symptoms solely due to the fat content of the meal. Just because you are lactose-intolerant and some meal bothered you does not exclude the possibility that other things in the food, or other non-food triggers caused the symptoms.bonniei-- I think why flux says that is because if you take a bunch of people selected randomly and test for intolerances and ask who has what symptoms you find that many people who test intolerant have no symptoms and that many people who have symptoms are not intolerant. There isn't a good correspondance between who to the best of our testing ability is intolerant and who has symptoms. Also food intolerances are tricky because the brain is involved. It is fairly natural for your brain to associate certain foods with being sick and try to get them out of the body one way or another even if the food itself wasn't the problem in the first place. Talk to anyone who likes to get really drunk sometimes. Most of them have some drink or other they got really sick on once and can't tolerate any more. That is why they do the tests blinded so people won't know if they got the food or not. Some people only reliably get sick when they know they ate the bad thing.K.------------------I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html [This message has been edited by kmottus (edited 07-13-2001).]


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

kmottus, I have heard your opinion many times but hadn't heard flux's, that was why I asked him. I suppose if his opinion differs from yours he can always dispute it. Just curious if the research he had read was different from what you might have read. But thanks for refreshing in my mind what you think of the whole issue







. I think I had forgotten it


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

kmottus, I have heard your opinion many times but hadn't heard flux's, that was why I asked him. I suppose if his opinion differs from yours he can always dispute it. Just curious if the research he had read was different from what you might have read. But thanks for refreshing in my mind what you think of the whole issue







. I think I had forgotten it


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

I believe my opinion was formed based on some old discussions with flux on another board, and the research he referenced.Sorry that I spoke out of turn, please accept my appology.K.------------------I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html [This message has been edited by kmottus (edited 07-13-2001).]


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

I believe my opinion was formed based on some old discussions with flux on another board, and the research he referenced.Sorry that I spoke out of turn, please accept my appology.K.------------------I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html [This message has been edited by kmottus (edited 07-13-2001).]


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

No no-you didn't speak out of turn at all. Please don't apologize. Now I feel bad for bringing up this issue. I was just curious about flux's opinion and didn't know what you were basing flux's opinion on.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

No no-you didn't speak out of turn at all. Please don't apologize. Now I feel bad for bringing up this issue. I was just curious about flux's opinion and didn't know what you were basing flux's opinion on.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

I was just checking. I wanted to make sure I didn't step on any toes. When it's just written communication I sometimes feel it is better to err on the apologize too much rather than not enough kinda thing. Without the body language or tone of voice sometimes it is hard to know exactly what someone meant. Most of what I learned about lactose intolerance has been from discussions with flux over the years, but it would be good to see his current thinking on the subject.K.------------------I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

I was just checking. I wanted to make sure I didn't step on any toes. When it's just written communication I sometimes feel it is better to err on the apologize too much rather than not enough kinda thing. Without the body language or tone of voice sometimes it is hard to know exactly what someone meant. Most of what I learned about lactose intolerance has been from discussions with flux over the years, but it would be good to see his current thinking on the subject.K.------------------I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2001)

Flux, kmottus,I've read many of your posts and both of you are very informative regarding ANYTHING to do with the stomach/intestines.Where on Earth Flux do you get the time to write such in-depth replies and whip out all of those journal studies?Although I think it's great that both of you have been a tremendous source of help for many people on this BB, and you should be commended, you are not physicians; I know you don't claim to be.At times I don't think you give people enough credit for knowing their own bodies and what effects them. This is what many physicians will do.To tell people the REAL reason that they're experiencing symptoms based on scientific findings, rather than what they believe, sometimes is simply not true and can be very condescending - I know not your intent.Unless we have a serious condition of which we're unaware, most of us who've had IBS for a number of years know what substances trigger our symptoms. AND, it's not always in our heads!Just giving my opinion. I will continue to read and learn from you.


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2001)

Flux, kmottus,I've read many of your posts and both of you are very informative regarding ANYTHING to do with the stomach/intestines.Where on Earth Flux do you get the time to write such in-depth replies and whip out all of those journal studies?Although I think it's great that both of you have been a tremendous source of help for many people on this BB, and you should be commended, you are not physicians; I know you don't claim to be.At times I don't think you give people enough credit for knowing their own bodies and what effects them. This is what many physicians will do.To tell people the REAL reason that they're experiencing symptoms based on scientific findings, rather than what they believe, sometimes is simply not true and can be very condescending - I know not your intent.Unless we have a serious condition of which we're unaware, most of us who've had IBS for a number of years know what substances trigger our symptoms. AND, it's not always in our heads!Just giving my opinion. I will continue to read and learn from you.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

I'm sorry if anything I said seemed like a personal attack. I did not intend it in that way at all.Experience can be a great teacher, it can also be a great deceiver. That is why people do blinded scientific studies. Sometimes what experience says is the cause and effect is true, and sometimes it is not.Our brains are wired to make cause and effect shortcuts. The "conventional wisdom" concerning this "magical thinking" is that it was a disordered brain process seen only in sick people. However, more in depth investigation has shown that "magical thinking" is the quick and dirty way that our brains use to make sense out of the world on the fly. Otherwise we probably couldn't be functional. I touch the stove, it hurt, don't touch the stove again. I wore this shirt when I won the game I will wear this shirt again, etc. Later on you find that the stove only hurts you when you turn it on, not all the time, or that you can win with any shirt on. But the process is used for just about everything.This "magical thinking" or "quick and dirty cause and effect" is really pretty good most of the time. Probably 90% of the time it is correct. However, sometimes it isn't and in general people tend to look for the data that reinforces things (like they musta hid something in the dinner that had lactose in it because I know I am lactose intolerant that has the assumption of nothing else would cause these symptoms so ergo lactose must have been present--coulda been alot of things as the symptoms of most food intolerances are identical).It is part of what makes human beings human beings. All I am really certain of is the more I learn the less I know, and the less certain I am that any direct experience of mine reveals the Truth. Much of the time it does, but I don't rely solely on that experience. It's right most of the time, but not all of the time, and generally with MOST people we are very, very bad at objectively determining what foods are causing symptoms. Either we overlook things thinking it is something else, or the random flucuations of IBS (it isn't an everyday is the exact same kinda disease) happen to coincide a few times with something.Some people with some of their known food intolerances do when tested blind do actually react to the food, sometimes they do not. The people where it does not are not mental cases with neurosis or anything like that and if that was how it read I am very sorry. Our brains make connections between things. Our brains tell our bodies things based on those connections, in EVERYBODY. Your not mentally weak or anything because you got sick from something else when you ate food X and now eating food X makes you sick. Your a normal human being with a brain that does what normal human brains do. Some food intolerances are real, some are incorrectly made correlations. ONLY blind testing will tell that. Heck I think I got some tuna fish lately that may have been processed wrong (the reaction was much like my bad reactions to allergy shots and incorrectly processed tuna can have histamine in it). My brain still thinks tuna is the enemy. The thought of it makes my queasy, and if I ate any of it right now even if it were FINE I'd probably throw it up (I'm more of a puker than a getting diarrhea when food is considered the enemy incorrectly). I only had ONE bad little can of tuna and if it is like the other times I've been through this (last time it was the popcorn I ate after getting a bad hamburger--but the tossing up tasted more like the popcorn than anything else) in about 6 months to a year I can eat the food again (the correlation will have started to fade by then) and I'll be fine eating it again. Some of the things from childhood (raisens) I ate a few too many times and got sick on them (grapes are fine all other dried fruits are fine, so I think it's a brain thing not a GI thing) and the correlation is pretty entrenched and I really don't have the desire to test to see if a handful of raisens will still make me puke. K.------------------I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

I'm sorry if anything I said seemed like a personal attack. I did not intend it in that way at all.Experience can be a great teacher, it can also be a great deceiver. That is why people do blinded scientific studies. Sometimes what experience says is the cause and effect is true, and sometimes it is not.Our brains are wired to make cause and effect shortcuts. The "conventional wisdom" concerning this "magical thinking" is that it was a disordered brain process seen only in sick people. However, more in depth investigation has shown that "magical thinking" is the quick and dirty way that our brains use to make sense out of the world on the fly. Otherwise we probably couldn't be functional. I touch the stove, it hurt, don't touch the stove again. I wore this shirt when I won the game I will wear this shirt again, etc. Later on you find that the stove only hurts you when you turn it on, not all the time, or that you can win with any shirt on. But the process is used for just about everything.This "magical thinking" or "quick and dirty cause and effect" is really pretty good most of the time. Probably 90% of the time it is correct. However, sometimes it isn't and in general people tend to look for the data that reinforces things (like they musta hid something in the dinner that had lactose in it because I know I am lactose intolerant that has the assumption of nothing else would cause these symptoms so ergo lactose must have been present--coulda been alot of things as the symptoms of most food intolerances are identical).It is part of what makes human beings human beings. All I am really certain of is the more I learn the less I know, and the less certain I am that any direct experience of mine reveals the Truth. Much of the time it does, but I don't rely solely on that experience. It's right most of the time, but not all of the time, and generally with MOST people we are very, very bad at objectively determining what foods are causing symptoms. Either we overlook things thinking it is something else, or the random flucuations of IBS (it isn't an everyday is the exact same kinda disease) happen to coincide a few times with something.Some people with some of their known food intolerances do when tested blind do actually react to the food, sometimes they do not. The people where it does not are not mental cases with neurosis or anything like that and if that was how it read I am very sorry. Our brains make connections between things. Our brains tell our bodies things based on those connections, in EVERYBODY. Your not mentally weak or anything because you got sick from something else when you ate food X and now eating food X makes you sick. Your a normal human being with a brain that does what normal human brains do. Some food intolerances are real, some are incorrectly made correlations. ONLY blind testing will tell that. Heck I think I got some tuna fish lately that may have been processed wrong (the reaction was much like my bad reactions to allergy shots and incorrectly processed tuna can have histamine in it). My brain still thinks tuna is the enemy. The thought of it makes my queasy, and if I ate any of it right now even if it were FINE I'd probably throw it up (I'm more of a puker than a getting diarrhea when food is considered the enemy incorrectly). I only had ONE bad little can of tuna and if it is like the other times I've been through this (last time it was the popcorn I ate after getting a bad hamburger--but the tossing up tasted more like the popcorn than anything else) in about 6 months to a year I can eat the food again (the correlation will have started to fade by then) and I'll be fine eating it again. Some of the things from childhood (raisens) I ate a few too many times and got sick on them (grapes are fine all other dried fruits are fine, so I think it's a brain thing not a GI thing) and the correlation is pretty entrenched and I really don't have the desire to test to see if a handful of raisens will still make me puke. K.------------------I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2001)

Very good post kmottus, insightful.I don't think you came across as "attacking" at all. Quite the opposite. I just understand people getting frustrated when other's tell them what's wrong when they feel otherwise.Maggie Kang


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2001)

Very good post kmottus, insightful.I don't think you came across as "attacking" at all. Quite the opposite. I just understand people getting frustrated when other's tell them what's wrong when they feel otherwise.Maggie Kang


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## atp (Jan 18, 2001)

I haven't had time to read all of this yet, but I wanted to respond to a few things now. I will be able to read the rest later.I have wondered about the original question myself. When I was trying to decide whether to take the sugar pill or no pill in my birth control packet, the fact that there was lactose bolstered my decision to just take no pill those days.Flux quoted: It's food meant for a different species. And then replied: The truth is the precise opposite--mammals have developed dairy through natural selection to feed their young. Flux, your statement does not counter the original one. Cow's milk is made for calves, not people. Cows may be mammals, but they are most definitely a different species from us. Mammals produce milk to feed their young. Two key points: to feed THEIR young, not the young of other kinds of mammals. A cow's milk is formulated for calves, and a human baby would do poorly drinking just cow's milk. And milk is to feed the YOUNG. Many humans develop lactose intolerance as they grow up, because they were not intended to suckle their whole lives...many of us stop producing as much lactase as we grow older.I've often wondered about the statement that lactose intolerant people can have a glass of milk. I don't know how much milk is in ice cream, but ice cream kills me. I know there are other ingredients in ice cream, but dairy is a problem for me. I had hot chocolate from a place once that I didn't know was putting milk in it rather than water and powder...I reacted like I do when I have dairy, and later found out that place does make theirs with milk. I had never bought hot chocolate anywhere before that put milk in it, and the thought didn't occur to me that this one might have. So I was not mentally prejudiced toward an attack. Incidentally, I have not had milk to drink since I was a kid, because I don't like the taste.Time for this to be chopped up into quotes and rebutted, I suppose....


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## atp (Jan 18, 2001)

I haven't had time to read all of this yet, but I wanted to respond to a few things now. I will be able to read the rest later.I have wondered about the original question myself. When I was trying to decide whether to take the sugar pill or no pill in my birth control packet, the fact that there was lactose bolstered my decision to just take no pill those days.Flux quoted: It's food meant for a different species. And then replied: The truth is the precise opposite--mammals have developed dairy through natural selection to feed their young. Flux, your statement does not counter the original one. Cow's milk is made for calves, not people. Cows may be mammals, but they are most definitely a different species from us. Mammals produce milk to feed their young. Two key points: to feed THEIR young, not the young of other kinds of mammals. A cow's milk is formulated for calves, and a human baby would do poorly drinking just cow's milk. And milk is to feed the YOUNG. Many humans develop lactose intolerance as they grow up, because they were not intended to suckle their whole lives...many of us stop producing as much lactase as we grow older.I've often wondered about the statement that lactose intolerant people can have a glass of milk. I don't know how much milk is in ice cream, but ice cream kills me. I know there are other ingredients in ice cream, but dairy is a problem for me. I had hot chocolate from a place once that I didn't know was putting milk in it rather than water and powder...I reacted like I do when I have dairy, and later found out that place does make theirs with milk. I had never bought hot chocolate anywhere before that put milk in it, and the thought didn't occur to me that this one might have. So I was not mentally prejudiced toward an attack. Incidentally, I have not had milk to drink since I was a kid, because I don't like the taste.Time for this to be chopped up into quotes and rebutted, I suppose....


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## atp (Jan 18, 2001)

One more comment...someone commented on dairy passing through them in 3 hours...and someone else said the transit time is not that fast... I can assure you that food can pass through you in far less time than that. How do I know this? Because when I eat something my body rejects, and I have an attack, I can sometimes see bits of the food in the toilet. For instance, I may not have had any salad for a week or two, then eat a meal that includes one, and get an attack, and see pieces of lettuce and other salad bits that are not well digested floating in the toilet. I know, ewww


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## atp (Jan 18, 2001)

One more comment...someone commented on dairy passing through them in 3 hours...and someone else said the transit time is not that fast... I can assure you that food can pass through you in far less time than that. How do I know this? Because when I eat something my body rejects, and I have an attack, I can sometimes see bits of the food in the toilet. For instance, I may not have had any salad for a week or two, then eat a meal that includes one, and get an attack, and see pieces of lettuce and other salad bits that are not well digested floating in the toilet. I know, ewww


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## Julia37 (May 9, 2001)

Thanks to the people who defended my points before I got back here.







Flux, I think you're in denial about lactose intolerance. I've noticed it before - why is it so hard for you to accept? It makes perfect sense considering dairy isn't formulated for our species. If you are addicted to dairy take heart, so was I and I found it wasn't near as hard as I expected to give up. Of course, the easing of my symptoms was a good motivator. And FYI to you and kmottus, my symptoms do differ. LI is the only trigger that causes me cramps and lower abdominal bloating. Sugars and other triggers cause pain in my stomach, as well as bloating in my upper abdomen and C. I was so familiar with that lactose feeling - remember, I lived 38 years eating dairy every day before I knew - I recognized it instantly. Please believe what I say about my own body.Flux, you are more like a narrow-minded oblivious doctor than anyone on this board. You absolutely refuse to accept anything that's not "confirmed" by establishment studies. The reason this board exists is because our problems are not well understood and the medical establishment can't or won't help us. I'm sure there are things going on inside each of our digestive tracts about which medical science has not a single clue. Remember all the things about digestion not suspected in recent history that we know today. There are lots more.


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## Julia37 (May 9, 2001)

Thanks to the people who defended my points before I got back here.







Flux, I think you're in denial about lactose intolerance. I've noticed it before - why is it so hard for you to accept? It makes perfect sense considering dairy isn't formulated for our species. If you are addicted to dairy take heart, so was I and I found it wasn't near as hard as I expected to give up. Of course, the easing of my symptoms was a good motivator. And FYI to you and kmottus, my symptoms do differ. LI is the only trigger that causes me cramps and lower abdominal bloating. Sugars and other triggers cause pain in my stomach, as well as bloating in my upper abdomen and C. I was so familiar with that lactose feeling - remember, I lived 38 years eating dairy every day before I knew - I recognized it instantly. Please believe what I say about my own body.Flux, you are more like a narrow-minded oblivious doctor than anyone on this board. You absolutely refuse to accept anything that's not "confirmed" by establishment studies. The reason this board exists is because our problems are not well understood and the medical establishment can't or won't help us. I'm sure there are things going on inside each of our digestive tracts about which medical science has not a single clue. Remember all the things about digestion not suspected in recent history that we know today. There are lots more.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

I must say I am unlike some of the people here. I appreciate the scientific feedback as I don't have the time to read all the research and I like to know what the state of research is today and I use the feedback as a reality check for my experiences


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

I must say I am unlike some of the people here. I appreciate the scientific feedback as I don't have the time to read all the research and I like to know what the state of research is today and I use the feedback as a reality check for my experiences


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## awcfly (Apr 15, 2001)

You go, Julia!It is very difficult to establish good science in the area of food intolerance. People have very inconsistent responses to dietary stimuli. If the response were dead-on consistent, then someone with food intolerances would eventually figure them out on their own, and would not require laboratory testing.I went until my thirties not realizing that my IBS symptoms were due to three food intolerances, even though I was already aware of allergies to two of the three items from the age of 10.Why? Because on any given day I might have successfully consumed some of the items with no problem. I don't know why this happens. But one has to consider that most people eat a very complex supply of organic materials at every meal. Some of those materials affect the acidity (pH) of the lumen, some affect the average sugar content, some affect the viscosity (how thick & gooey is the mixture), some affect the fiber content, etc. Then your body dumps in variable mixtures of hydrochloric acid, pepsin, bile, pancreatic enzymes, mucous, etc. Also, at any given time your immune system will be fighting off bacteria at numerous locations in the GI tract, and your enteric nervous system will be in a high or low state of stress.It is a complex mess. It is possible that lactose intolerance in a particular person rears it's ugly head only when the lumen is at a pH below a certain value, for instance, or when the immune system is cranking out histamine above a certain concentration.In my case, eating one food item along with a very high fiber diet was dramatically worse for IBS symptoms than eating it with a low fiber diet.Blanket statements about what food intolerance must do or cannot possibly do are bound to be incorrect for a small percentage of people out there on the tapering fringe of the bell curve.I for one am glad to hear that Julia has found her problem and can solve it.


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## awcfly (Apr 15, 2001)

You go, Julia!It is very difficult to establish good science in the area of food intolerance. People have very inconsistent responses to dietary stimuli. If the response were dead-on consistent, then someone with food intolerances would eventually figure them out on their own, and would not require laboratory testing.I went until my thirties not realizing that my IBS symptoms were due to three food intolerances, even though I was already aware of allergies to two of the three items from the age of 10.Why? Because on any given day I might have successfully consumed some of the items with no problem. I don't know why this happens. But one has to consider that most people eat a very complex supply of organic materials at every meal. Some of those materials affect the acidity (pH) of the lumen, some affect the average sugar content, some affect the viscosity (how thick & gooey is the mixture), some affect the fiber content, etc. Then your body dumps in variable mixtures of hydrochloric acid, pepsin, bile, pancreatic enzymes, mucous, etc. Also, at any given time your immune system will be fighting off bacteria at numerous locations in the GI tract, and your enteric nervous system will be in a high or low state of stress.It is a complex mess. It is possible that lactose intolerance in a particular person rears it's ugly head only when the lumen is at a pH below a certain value, for instance, or when the immune system is cranking out histamine above a certain concentration.In my case, eating one food item along with a very high fiber diet was dramatically worse for IBS symptoms than eating it with a low fiber diet.Blanket statements about what food intolerance must do or cannot possibly do are bound to be incorrect for a small percentage of people out there on the tapering fringe of the bell curve.I for one am glad to hear that Julia has found her problem and can solve it.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: I think why flux says that is because if you take a bunch of people selected randomly and test for intolerances and ask who has what symptoms you find that many people who test intolerant have no symptoms and that many people who have symptoms are not intolerant


Yep, that's it.


> quote:Most of what I learned about lactose intolerance has been from discussions with flux over the years, but it would be good to see his current thinking on the subject.


Fabrizis (the F in Suarez FL) and his friends do the hard work to enlighten us. I just pass the word









> quote:To tell people the REAL reason that they're experiencing symptoms based on scientific findings, rather than what they believe, sometimes is simply not true and can be very condescending - I know not your intent.


The goal of the science in this case is to find out how well what people perceive corresponds to reality. *For a long time, the GI community believed that LI was indeed responsible for IBS symptoms*. It was only this recent research that has turned everything upside down.


> quote:Flux, your statement does not counter the original one. Cow's milk is made for calves, not people. Cows may be


Nothing is really intentional in nature; it just happens at random and stays if there are benefactors.


> quote: A cow's milk is formulated for calves, and a human baby would do poorly drinking just cow's milk. And milk is to feed the YOUNG


Who says human babies do poorly? And who says it's only for the young?


> quote:Many humans develop lactose intolerance as they grow up


It only seems to develop if you don't drink milk. This is true for many of the world's peoples, but in Western adults, only 30% of the population can't digest it well and for them the new science shows it not to be a problem.


> quote: don't know how much milk is in ice cream, but ice cream kills me


Probably an argument against lactose. Ice cream is mainly regular sugar and a lot of milkfat.


> quote:I can assure you that food can pass through you in far less time than that


In an acute GI infection, but it's not a feature of IBS. In IBS, there may be some speedup in transit, but it's nowhere near this level.


> quote:It is possible that lactose intolerance in a particular person rears it's ugly head only when the lumen is at a pH below a certain value, for instance, or when the immune system is cranking out histamine above a certain concentration.


LI decreases the pH of the colon because the unabsorbed carbohydrated is fermented in organic acids which lower the pH. There's no good reason to believe therei is any complex biological interaction going on.


> quoteeople have very inconsistent responses to dietary stimuli.


*That is the point.*


> quote:I for one am glad to hear that Julia has found her problem and can solve it.


You think?------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: I think why flux says that is because if you take a bunch of people selected randomly and test for intolerances and ask who has what symptoms you find that many people who test intolerant have no symptoms and that many people who have symptoms are not intolerant


Yep, that's it.


> quote:Most of what I learned about lactose intolerance has been from discussions with flux over the years, but it would be good to see his current thinking on the subject.


Fabrizis (the F in Suarez FL) and his friends do the hard work to enlighten us. I just pass the word









> quote:To tell people the REAL reason that they're experiencing symptoms based on scientific findings, rather than what they believe, sometimes is simply not true and can be very condescending - I know not your intent.


The goal of the science in this case is to find out how well what people perceive corresponds to reality. *For a long time, the GI community believed that LI was indeed responsible for IBS symptoms*. It was only this recent research that has turned everything upside down.


> quote:Flux, your statement does not counter the original one. Cow's milk is made for calves, not people. Cows may be


Nothing is really intentional in nature; it just happens at random and stays if there are benefactors.


> quote: A cow's milk is formulated for calves, and a human baby would do poorly drinking just cow's milk. And milk is to feed the YOUNG


Who says human babies do poorly? And who says it's only for the young?


> quote:Many humans develop lactose intolerance as they grow up


It only seems to develop if you don't drink milk. This is true for many of the world's peoples, but in Western adults, only 30% of the population can't digest it well and for them the new science shows it not to be a problem.


> quote: don't know how much milk is in ice cream, but ice cream kills me


Probably an argument against lactose. Ice cream is mainly regular sugar and a lot of milkfat.


> quote:I can assure you that food can pass through you in far less time than that


In an acute GI infection, but it's not a feature of IBS. In IBS, there may be some speedup in transit, but it's nowhere near this level.


> quote:It is possible that lactose intolerance in a particular person rears it's ugly head only when the lumen is at a pH below a certain value, for instance, or when the immune system is cranking out histamine above a certain concentration.


LI decreases the pH of the colon because the unabsorbed carbohydrated is fermented in organic acids which lower the pH. There's no good reason to believe therei is any complex biological interaction going on.


> quoteeople have very inconsistent responses to dietary stimuli.


*That is the point.*


> quote:I for one am glad to hear that Julia has found her problem and can solve it.


You think?------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.


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## Julia37 (May 9, 2001)

>If the response were dead-on consistent, then someone with food intolerances would eventually figure them out on their own, and would not require laboratory testing.<This is often true of food allergies, including mine. That's how I figured out my allergy to soy. I always get congestion - starting in my sinuses and if I eat enough soy, also in my chest.This is why many adults with food allergies have figured it out in spite of the denial of doctors.A feel a bit stupid for not figuring out the LI on my own - my LI symptoms are very consistent and I had heard of LI before my doctor mentioned it. I must have been in denial because dairy foods were my favorite. I still miss the creamy pasta sauce...looking for substitutes.Thanks for your explanation of the complexity of digestion - and remember, that's only what we know so far!


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## Julia37 (May 9, 2001)

>If the response were dead-on consistent, then someone with food intolerances would eventually figure them out on their own, and would not require laboratory testing.<This is often true of food allergies, including mine. That's how I figured out my allergy to soy. I always get congestion - starting in my sinuses and if I eat enough soy, also in my chest.This is why many adults with food allergies have figured it out in spite of the denial of doctors.A feel a bit stupid for not figuring out the LI on my own - my LI symptoms are very consistent and I had heard of LI before my doctor mentioned it. I must have been in denial because dairy foods were my favorite. I still miss the creamy pasta sauce...looking for substitutes.Thanks for your explanation of the complexity of digestion - and remember, that's only what we know so far!


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

I had a chance to read one of the studies mentioned by flux. You have got to see the results of the studies- there was virtually no difference in the symptoms between LI people who drank regular milk and those who drank hydrolysed milk with the enzyme in it. If anything the subjects who drank the regular milk had fewer symptoms. However I had some problems with the experiment. All these subjects were people who abstained from milk or used the enzyme with milk regularly. My sister's doc told my sister that if people who can't digest milk abstain from milk, the enzyme builds up in the body so that they can have milk for a while without symptoms i.e they build up a certain tolerance for milk. So I wonder if that was happening in these subjects and hence there was no difference in symptoms between the two groups. I would have preferred an experiment which would have taken place over a longer period of time in order to destroy this artificial toleranceI have edited this message and deleted my second objection to the testI also came across an abstract by the same author where he does some psychological tests on people who have lactose intolerance!Couldn't tell the results from the abstract. However, flux reads all these studies and reports back to us and gets into trouble because people confuse his opinions with the research he has read. It would be funny if it didn't happen so often.[This message has been edited by bonniei (edited 07-16-2001).][This message has been edited by bonniei (edited 07-16-2001).]


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

I had a chance to read one of the studies mentioned by flux. You have got to see the results of the studies- there was virtually no difference in the symptoms between LI people who drank regular milk and those who drank hydrolysed milk with the enzyme in it. If anything the subjects who drank the regular milk had fewer symptoms. However I had some problems with the experiment. All these subjects were people who abstained from milk or used the enzyme with milk regularly. My sister's doc told my sister that if people who can't digest milk abstain from milk, the enzyme builds up in the body so that they can have milk for a while without symptoms i.e they build up a certain tolerance for milk. So I wonder if that was happening in these subjects and hence there was no difference in symptoms between the two groups. I would have preferred an experiment which would have taken place over a longer period of time in order to destroy this artificial toleranceI have edited this message and deleted my second objection to the testI also came across an abstract by the same author where he does some psychological tests on people who have lactose intolerance!Couldn't tell the results from the abstract. However, flux reads all these studies and reports back to us and gets into trouble because people confuse his opinions with the research he has read. It would be funny if it didn't happen so often.[This message has been edited by bonniei (edited 07-16-2001).][This message has been edited by bonniei (edited 07-16-2001).]


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

That doc's info seems to run counter to what I've read (and my own experince).You do not use up an enzyme, it is a catalyst and it not used up in the reaction, so abstaining wouldn't cause a build up as using it does not cause a decrease.Secondly, your body produces enzymes when you need them. You don't drink milk for along time, you stop making the enzyme, Most of the reseach seems to suggest that small daily intakes of dairy is the best way to maintain tolerance. Since you make the stuff you need (and stop making the stuff you don't need) making sure you need it every day seems like the best way to maintain lactose tolerance.I find that as long as I have small amounts of lactose every day (generally milk in the coffee kinda thing) I can tolerate fairly decent amounts of lactose (although the large chocolate malted milk shake may be a problem, the small or medium one is usually OK). When I don't have any lactose for a couple of weeks then lactose bothers me more, but by reintroducing small amounts of lactose again I can get back to where I can consume reasonable amounts without problems. K.------------------I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html [This message has been edited by kmottus (edited 07-16-2001).]


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

That doc's info seems to run counter to what I've read (and my own experince).You do not use up an enzyme, it is a catalyst and it not used up in the reaction, so abstaining wouldn't cause a build up as using it does not cause a decrease.Secondly, your body produces enzymes when you need them. You don't drink milk for along time, you stop making the enzyme, Most of the reseach seems to suggest that small daily intakes of dairy is the best way to maintain tolerance. Since you make the stuff you need (and stop making the stuff you don't need) making sure you need it every day seems like the best way to maintain lactose tolerance.I find that as long as I have small amounts of lactose every day (generally milk in the coffee kinda thing) I can tolerate fairly decent amounts of lactose (although the large chocolate malted milk shake may be a problem, the small or medium one is usually OK). When I don't have any lactose for a couple of weeks then lactose bothers me more, but by reintroducing small amounts of lactose again I can get back to where I can consume reasonable amounts without problems. K.------------------I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html [This message has been edited by kmottus (edited 07-16-2001).]


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## atp (Jan 18, 2001)

Thanks for the explanation, bonnei and K.K, I have wondered if taking Lactaid with dairy made my body make even less lactase. I used to get symptoms from milk, but more from eating a larger quantity, like a milkshake or lots of pizza. Then I thought hey, my parents are lactose-intolerant, large amounts of dairy give me D...maybe I should give Lactaid a try. And lo and behold a lot of my GI symptoms disappeared when I started taking Lactaid with dairy. But after starting that, I found that I couldn't tolerate as much dairy as I used to before I started taking Lactaid. I think my body started producing less lactase when it was getting supplements of it.And flux, you said you cannot have transit times of a couple of hours or less. How do you counter my example of easily identifiable bits of salad I ate only an hour and a half ago or so? With nothing that looks like that eaten before, so it was not older lettuce. etc. in my system that had somehow avoided digestion for a while before shooting out my rear.


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## atp (Jan 18, 2001)

Thanks for the explanation, bonnei and K.K, I have wondered if taking Lactaid with dairy made my body make even less lactase. I used to get symptoms from milk, but more from eating a larger quantity, like a milkshake or lots of pizza. Then I thought hey, my parents are lactose-intolerant, large amounts of dairy give me D...maybe I should give Lactaid a try. And lo and behold a lot of my GI symptoms disappeared when I started taking Lactaid with dairy. But after starting that, I found that I couldn't tolerate as much dairy as I used to before I started taking Lactaid. I think my body started producing less lactase when it was getting supplements of it.And flux, you said you cannot have transit times of a couple of hours or less. How do you counter my example of easily identifiable bits of salad I ate only an hour and a half ago or so? With nothing that looks like that eaten before, so it was not older lettuce. etc. in my system that had somehow avoided digestion for a while before shooting out my rear.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

A misinformed doctor? Maybe.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

A misinformed doctor? Maybe.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

I edited and deleted my second objection about the test in one of my previous posts to this thread . Happens when you are pressed for time and read something in a hurry. Given kmottus's reply to my first objection about the test and given that the second objection is no longer valid I would have to agree it was a good experiment. [This message has been edited by bonniei (edited 07-16-2001).]


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

I edited and deleted my second objection about the test in one of my previous posts to this thread . Happens when you are pressed for time and read something in a hurry. Given kmottus's reply to my first objection about the test and given that the second objection is no longer valid I would have to agree it was a good experiment. [This message has been edited by bonniei (edited 07-16-2001).]


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## Guest (Jul 17, 2001)

Flux- I don't know who F. Suarez is doing all the heavy lifting for, I do know that experts can come up with many different proofs, depending on what he or she is trying to prove. Just visit a court room sometime. You argue that the mind can play tricks, there has been more than one occasion when I've asked a restaurant waiter to be sure to tell the cook to avoid using any dairy in preparing my meal. When my stomach would react sometime later I knew that the waiter had either not given the message to the cook, the cook had not taken the message seriously or had simply forgotten the message altogether in the process of cooking the meal. Now when I'm told that a dairy product is usually contained in the meal or used in the preparation of the meal I simply ask for something else on the menu. I know that you've argued that it takes many hours for food to transit through the body but that isn't necessarily true when your body regards the food as a toxin. There is one place in SF where I can eat pizza with no ill effects. I don't know why this is the case. My mind must be playing one hell of a trick on me, I guess. Either that or the cheese isn't as real as the owner says it is. I do know that if I try to eat pizza anywhere else I will develop goose flesh within an hour, with the hairs on my arms standing on end and I have to find a toilet, pronto. There have been times when I'm constipated and gassy from eating this or that. Nothing too unusual. But in the past I made the mistake of buying what was advertised as a purely natural laxative containing senna. When laxative left me with excruciating abdominal cramps on a few occasions I decide to look at the ingredients, senna & lactose. I don't get the same 'kicked in the guts' feeling now that I've switched laxatives. My stomach will let me know whether or not a product contains lactose if I'm too lazy to read labels. If I suddenly feel gassy and bloated and find myself with diahrea after eating some pieces of candy, I need only start reading the package label to find that I've fallen off my lactose free diet by eating candy containing sodium lactate. I wonder how many tests are carried out with funding recieved from the Dairy Council by one means or another? I do know that the Diary Council pours millions of dollars into congressional coffers. As far as the FDA goes, they don't perform any tests, they let the industry do all the heavy lifting. And lactaid does upset my stomach, I have no idea why.[This message has been edited by Grouchy (edited 07-16-2001).]


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## Guest (Jul 17, 2001)

Flux- I don't know who F. Suarez is doing all the heavy lifting for, I do know that experts can come up with many different proofs, depending on what he or she is trying to prove. Just visit a court room sometime. You argue that the mind can play tricks, there has been more than one occasion when I've asked a restaurant waiter to be sure to tell the cook to avoid using any dairy in preparing my meal. When my stomach would react sometime later I knew that the waiter had either not given the message to the cook, the cook had not taken the message seriously or had simply forgotten the message altogether in the process of cooking the meal. Now when I'm told that a dairy product is usually contained in the meal or used in the preparation of the meal I simply ask for something else on the menu. I know that you've argued that it takes many hours for food to transit through the body but that isn't necessarily true when your body regards the food as a toxin. There is one place in SF where I can eat pizza with no ill effects. I don't know why this is the case. My mind must be playing one hell of a trick on me, I guess. Either that or the cheese isn't as real as the owner says it is. I do know that if I try to eat pizza anywhere else I will develop goose flesh within an hour, with the hairs on my arms standing on end and I have to find a toilet, pronto. There have been times when I'm constipated and gassy from eating this or that. Nothing too unusual. But in the past I made the mistake of buying what was advertised as a purely natural laxative containing senna. When laxative left me with excruciating abdominal cramps on a few occasions I decide to look at the ingredients, senna & lactose. I don't get the same 'kicked in the guts' feeling now that I've switched laxatives. My stomach will let me know whether or not a product contains lactose if I'm too lazy to read labels. If I suddenly feel gassy and bloated and find myself with diahrea after eating some pieces of candy, I need only start reading the package label to find that I've fallen off my lactose free diet by eating candy containing sodium lactate. I wonder how many tests are carried out with funding recieved from the Dairy Council by one means or another? I do know that the Diary Council pours millions of dollars into congressional coffers. As far as the FDA goes, they don't perform any tests, they let the industry do all the heavy lifting. And lactaid does upset my stomach, I have no idea why.[This message has been edited by Grouchy (edited 07-16-2001).]


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Most aged cheeses have very little lactose in them as the bacteria that turn the curds into cheese eat lactose (cottage cheese etc may still have some lactose).It could be alot of things with the pizza from what additives are in the dough, to what additives are in the sauces. Alot of pre-prepared type things have a wide variety of additives that vary from place to place, and it could be one of those additives that is bothering you (pretty much all food intolerances tend to have the same symptoms so it is hard to blame everything on solely one thing, and it is quite common to have more than one intolerance).One test would be to make pizza at home using only fresh ingredients (make sauce from tomatoes, etc--or ask if they use prepared stuff at the one shop that doesn't bother you. It may be one of the few places that is using fresh ingredients) and see if it bothers you or not. If it didn't I'd bet most places are using some sort of preservative, or additive of some sort that may be bothersome. Very often resteraunt food has stuff in it that you wouldn't be adding when you make it yourself.With candies you also have to watch out for sorbitol, which is mostly in sugarless varieties. It can cause diarrhea, etc in people. One woman is in the medical lit for swallowing alot of sugarless gum. She had unrelenting diarrhea that they finally tracked down to her gum addiction.I may be having a brain fart but lactate isn't the same as lactose. Isn't lactate lactic acid...I'm not sure how or if it is utilized by the body or the bacteria in the colon, but I wouldn't think lactase deficiency would make a difference so it may be a separate issue, but I'm not sure.K.------------------I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html [This message has been edited by kmottus (edited 07-16-2001).]


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Most aged cheeses have very little lactose in them as the bacteria that turn the curds into cheese eat lactose (cottage cheese etc may still have some lactose).It could be alot of things with the pizza from what additives are in the dough, to what additives are in the sauces. Alot of pre-prepared type things have a wide variety of additives that vary from place to place, and it could be one of those additives that is bothering you (pretty much all food intolerances tend to have the same symptoms so it is hard to blame everything on solely one thing, and it is quite common to have more than one intolerance).One test would be to make pizza at home using only fresh ingredients (make sauce from tomatoes, etc--or ask if they use prepared stuff at the one shop that doesn't bother you. It may be one of the few places that is using fresh ingredients) and see if it bothers you or not. If it didn't I'd bet most places are using some sort of preservative, or additive of some sort that may be bothersome. Very often resteraunt food has stuff in it that you wouldn't be adding when you make it yourself.With candies you also have to watch out for sorbitol, which is mostly in sugarless varieties. It can cause diarrhea, etc in people. One woman is in the medical lit for swallowing alot of sugarless gum. She had unrelenting diarrhea that they finally tracked down to her gum addiction.I may be having a brain fart but lactate isn't the same as lactose. Isn't lactate lactic acid...I'm not sure how or if it is utilized by the body or the bacteria in the colon, but I wouldn't think lactase deficiency would make a difference so it may be a separate issue, but I'm not sure.K.------------------I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html [This message has been edited by kmottus (edited 07-16-2001).]


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## Julia37 (May 9, 2001)

A couple of other possibilities - the pizza place that doesn't make Grouchy sick may be using soy cheese. Non-allergic people consider it "healthy". (I'll refrain from the unadvertised bad effects of soy here... please just don't give soy milk to babies.) If the restaurant is using soy cheese and lying about it, that could cause serious problems for people allergic to soy. Some have anaphylactic reactions, it would be a nightmare. Soy and dairy are the most common food allergies known.When I learned I'm LI I looked it up on the web and found a site from which I got most of my information. kmottus is right that hard aged cheeses usually have only traces of lactose. Pizza is usually made with mozzarella, a soft young cheese, but if this place is using hard cheeses such as cheddar, swiss or gruyere, that could be the reason it doesn't bother Grouchy.Soft young cheeses like cottage and cream cheeses contain a lot more lactose than hard cheeses. However, cheese-making is not an exact science, and each batch is slightly different because of such things as weather conditions and microbes in the air of the cheese factory. Many years ago I had a job at a wine and cheese shop and I heard stories about the flavor of a cheese changing if the production location was moved. Roquefurt(sp?) cheese comes from the caves in France where it was invented by accident - a shepherd stashed his lunch of cottage cheese there and when he retrieved it the next day, it had become Roquefurt. A similar cheese made anywhere else is not allowed to be called Roquefurt, it's usually called blue cheese.I suppose a LI person could experiment with different cheeses from around the world to see which might bother and which won't, but I've gotten out of the cheese habit now and don't feel the need.


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## Julia37 (May 9, 2001)

A couple of other possibilities - the pizza place that doesn't make Grouchy sick may be using soy cheese. Non-allergic people consider it "healthy". (I'll refrain from the unadvertised bad effects of soy here... please just don't give soy milk to babies.) If the restaurant is using soy cheese and lying about it, that could cause serious problems for people allergic to soy. Some have anaphylactic reactions, it would be a nightmare. Soy and dairy are the most common food allergies known.When I learned I'm LI I looked it up on the web and found a site from which I got most of my information. kmottus is right that hard aged cheeses usually have only traces of lactose. Pizza is usually made with mozzarella, a soft young cheese, but if this place is using hard cheeses such as cheddar, swiss or gruyere, that could be the reason it doesn't bother Grouchy.Soft young cheeses like cottage and cream cheeses contain a lot more lactose than hard cheeses. However, cheese-making is not an exact science, and each batch is slightly different because of such things as weather conditions and microbes in the air of the cheese factory. Many years ago I had a job at a wine and cheese shop and I heard stories about the flavor of a cheese changing if the production location was moved. Roquefurt(sp?) cheese comes from the caves in France where it was invented by accident - a shepherd stashed his lunch of cottage cheese there and when he retrieved it the next day, it had become Roquefurt. A similar cheese made anywhere else is not allowed to be called Roquefurt, it's usually called blue cheese.I suppose a LI person could experiment with different cheeses from around the world to see which might bother and which won't, but I've gotten out of the cheese habit now and don't feel the need.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:That doc's info seems to run counter to what I've read (and my own experince).


Yep, abstaining from milk you *lose* tolerance. It is reasonable to suspect that people who have little dietary experience (e.g, Chinese persons) with diary could actually suffer from LI!


> quote:You do not use up an enzyme, it is a catalyst


I don't think that was the logic, but anyway, the enzymes would eventually be lost in the mix (either in the feces or they are digested themselves).


> quote:How do you counter my example of easily identifiable bits of salad I ate only an hour and a half ago or so?


Since your observation does not accompany what should happen if the observation were true (mainly that you'd be suffering massive malabsorption and probably be too sick to write what you wrote), I am ready to believe you are just misintepreting what you are seeing. That whatever it is you are seeing is not from the salad you ate, but something from a previous meal (maybe even several days earlier!). That is the more believable of the two possibities.


> quote:I try to eat pizza anywhere else I will develop goose flesh within an hour


I don't know what causes that, only that is *not* related to LI.


> quote:I need only start reading the package label to find that I've fallen off my lactose free diet by eating candy containing sodium lactate


and


> quote:I may be having a brain fart but lactate isn't the same as lactose. Isn't lactate lactic acid.


Lactate (lactic acid) is a by product of lactose digestion. More evidence your problem is *not* related to LI.


> quote:My mind must be playing one hell of a trick on me, I guess


It appears that way.


> quote:I suppose a LI person could experiment with different cheeses


Given the amount of lactose one has to consume and the circumstances (e.g, empty stomach) make it very likely that *no Westernized adult who has LI will have a problem with these amounts of lactose*, it doesn't seem to be a significant concern.


> quote:When I learned I'm LI


Do you still believe that now?------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.[This message has been edited by flux (edited 07-16-2001).]


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:That doc's info seems to run counter to what I've read (and my own experince).


Yep, abstaining from milk you *lose* tolerance. It is reasonable to suspect that people who have little dietary experience (e.g, Chinese persons) with diary could actually suffer from LI!


> quote:You do not use up an enzyme, it is a catalyst


I don't think that was the logic, but anyway, the enzymes would eventually be lost in the mix (either in the feces or they are digested themselves).


> quote:How do you counter my example of easily identifiable bits of salad I ate only an hour and a half ago or so?


Since your observation does not accompany what should happen if the observation were true (mainly that you'd be suffering massive malabsorption and probably be too sick to write what you wrote), I am ready to believe you are just misintepreting what you are seeing. That whatever it is you are seeing is not from the salad you ate, but something from a previous meal (maybe even several days earlier!). That is the more believable of the two possibities.


> quote:I try to eat pizza anywhere else I will develop goose flesh within an hour


I don't know what causes that, only that is *not* related to LI.


> quote:I need only start reading the package label to find that I've fallen off my lactose free diet by eating candy containing sodium lactate


and


> quote:I may be having a brain fart but lactate isn't the same as lactose. Isn't lactate lactic acid.


Lactate (lactic acid) is a by product of lactose digestion. More evidence your problem is *not* related to LI.


> quote:My mind must be playing one hell of a trick on me, I guess


It appears that way.


> quote:I suppose a LI person could experiment with different cheeses


Given the amount of lactose one has to consume and the circumstances (e.g, empty stomach) make it very likely that *no Westernized adult who has LI will have a problem with these amounts of lactose*, it doesn't seem to be a significant concern.


> quote:When I learned I'm LI


Do you still believe that now?------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.[This message has been edited by flux (edited 07-16-2001).]


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## Ugh (Jan 30, 2001)

This thread makes me sympathize with IBS doctors. I can see how difficult it would be to deal with people who are dead set in proving that feeling trumps all scientific data to the contrary. What I don't understand is if some of the people here are really so sure differen't foods are triggers, why are your examples so haphazard? I'm not saying the studies mentioned have to be correct but come on. For example, Julia, do you really think you can come to such a firm conclusion based on a Chicago style pan pizza and a dinner you ate last May? If I was so sure I had a specific food trigger I'd test and retest with a food diary and recording everything. Going by feeling is simply impossible. I used to do this, certian things just felt like they had to be related, etc. I started keeping records on symptoms, etc...and I found that much of what I thought had to be true was completely false. When it comes to IBS I really think intuition just isn't worth much.


> quote:It [LI] only seems to develop if you don't drink milk.


 Flux, could you go into more greater detail on that one. Are you saying that only people who don't drink milk get LI? [This message has been edited by Ugh (edited 07-16-2001).]


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## Ugh (Jan 30, 2001)

This thread makes me sympathize with IBS doctors. I can see how difficult it would be to deal with people who are dead set in proving that feeling trumps all scientific data to the contrary. What I don't understand is if some of the people here are really so sure differen't foods are triggers, why are your examples so haphazard? I'm not saying the studies mentioned have to be correct but come on. For example, Julia, do you really think you can come to such a firm conclusion based on a Chicago style pan pizza and a dinner you ate last May? If I was so sure I had a specific food trigger I'd test and retest with a food diary and recording everything. Going by feeling is simply impossible. I used to do this, certian things just felt like they had to be related, etc. I started keeping records on symptoms, etc...and I found that much of what I thought had to be true was completely false. When it comes to IBS I really think intuition just isn't worth much.


> quote:It [LI] only seems to develop if you don't drink milk.


 Flux, could you go into more greater detail on that one. Are you saying that only people who don't drink milk get LI? [This message has been edited by Ugh (edited 07-16-2001).]


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Here is a passage from an editorial by Suarez and Levitt that kind of sums up some of this discussion and offers a novel explanation for the discrepancy between patient perception and these studies-"However the concept that modest doses of lactose can be tolerated with negligible symptoms is anathema to most individuals who perceive themselves to be lactose intolerant. Despite results of controlled studies to the contrary, these individuals maintain that small amounts of lactose cause symptoms. The conventional response to these individuals is that controlled trials do not lie and that the lactose-induced symptoms in these individuals are largely "psychologic" rather than "physiologic" in origin. However we conclude the editorial with a heretical question. Is it possible that lactose malabsorption actually induces symptoms in these subjects, but the methodology required for a blinded study somehow alters a subjects ability to accurately perceive symptoms? For example, does the need to focus on and grade symptoms perturb the normal, delicate mind-body interaction thatresults in the perception of mild abdominal symptoms, with a resulting underestimation of symptoms during the active treatment period? Heisenberg received a Nobel prize for his uncertainty principle, which stated that accurate measurements of electron speed and mass were impossible because the measurement technique necessarily perturbed the phenomena being measured. Although unlike to yield a second nobel prize, it would be of interest to determine whether the blinded techniques required to evaluate lactose intolerance symptoms possibly represent a biological uncertainty principle"Biological uncertainty principle! LOL. Maybe there is some principle like that operating. Who knows?!


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Here is a passage from an editorial by Suarez and Levitt that kind of sums up some of this discussion and offers a novel explanation for the discrepancy between patient perception and these studies-"However the concept that modest doses of lactose can be tolerated with negligible symptoms is anathema to most individuals who perceive themselves to be lactose intolerant. Despite results of controlled studies to the contrary, these individuals maintain that small amounts of lactose cause symptoms. The conventional response to these individuals is that controlled trials do not lie and that the lactose-induced symptoms in these individuals are largely "psychologic" rather than "physiologic" in origin. However we conclude the editorial with a heretical question. Is it possible that lactose malabsorption actually induces symptoms in these subjects, but the methodology required for a blinded study somehow alters a subjects ability to accurately perceive symptoms? For example, does the need to focus on and grade symptoms perturb the normal, delicate mind-body interaction thatresults in the perception of mild abdominal symptoms, with a resulting underestimation of symptoms during the active treatment period? Heisenberg received a Nobel prize for his uncertainty principle, which stated that accurate measurements of electron speed and mass were impossible because the measurement technique necessarily perturbed the phenomena being measured. Although unlike to yield a second nobel prize, it would be of interest to determine whether the blinded techniques required to evaluate lactose intolerance symptoms possibly represent a biological uncertainty principle"Biological uncertainty principle! LOL. Maybe there is some principle like that operating. Who knows?!


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## JennT (Jul 17, 2000)

I don't quite understand this. I may or may not have what is termed "lactose intolerance" by the medical/scientific community - but that's just semantics. All I know is that milk and most milk products cause D, gas, and sometimes stuffy nose, puffy eyes, and wheezing, even when I don't know it's in a given food. So here's what I did...I tried six ounces of nonfat, organic, plain yogurt (after being off milk and asymptomatic for two weeks). No upset stomach - yay! About two minutes later, though, I get a stuffy nose, puffy eyes, and wheezing. Interesting. So this is an actual allergic response, and I only know of two things that are common allergens in milk - casein and whey.So a week later, I try 1 slice "soy" cheese, which has casein in it, I think to make it melt better. Instant UR symptoms. Hmmm - seems I'm allergic to casein. Also interesting.So a week after that, I try 1 tsp. margarine on a slice of bread. Most margarine, including the one I tried, has whey. No response. Yippee! So I try it again the next morning on toast. Five minutes until UR symptoms. Hmmm again. Maybe also allergic to whey, but not *as* allergic as to casein, and need a certain dosage to activate symptoms.So a week later, since I have had *no* upset tummy, but have had a UR-type allergic response, I try something I know has very little casein or whey or lactose, but tons of milkfat - butter. Upset tummy in no time flat. Aha. Is this milkfat? Could be - my gallbladder is not real efficient, and seems to dislike animal fats more than vegetable. So let's try a lactose-full dairy product with little fat - part-skim mozzerella cheese. Slight tummy trouble, UR symtoms.So I report to my GI doc, who states that although I do not appear to be lactose-intolerant in the clinical sense, I obviously have a mild sensitivity to dairy on a GI level, especially milkfat, and an allergy to casein, slight allergy to whey.This was all a year ago. I can tolerate very small amounts of low-fat dairy products. This usually amounts to a single chocolate once a week. But I've found acceptable subsitutes for everything except the mozzerella. The craving hasn't gotten teh best of me yet, but if it ever does, I'll take 1 preventive Imodium, 1 Benadryl, and eat that slice of pizza.In public, it's simply easier to say, "I'm allergic to milk," or, "I'm lactose intolerant", whether or not we are by the *medical* definitions thereof. *EVERYONE* is familiar with one or both of those designations. So, scientific types, please be gentle. I for one am only describing what happens to me personally - I'm not challenging your knowledge. I think that if we knew what worked for everyone with this disorder, this board would cease to exist... we'd all be cured and there would be no erason for it...------------------*JennT*


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## JennT (Jul 17, 2000)

I don't quite understand this. I may or may not have what is termed "lactose intolerance" by the medical/scientific community - but that's just semantics. All I know is that milk and most milk products cause D, gas, and sometimes stuffy nose, puffy eyes, and wheezing, even when I don't know it's in a given food. So here's what I did...I tried six ounces of nonfat, organic, plain yogurt (after being off milk and asymptomatic for two weeks). No upset stomach - yay! About two minutes later, though, I get a stuffy nose, puffy eyes, and wheezing. Interesting. So this is an actual allergic response, and I only know of two things that are common allergens in milk - casein and whey.So a week later, I try 1 slice "soy" cheese, which has casein in it, I think to make it melt better. Instant UR symptoms. Hmmm - seems I'm allergic to casein. Also interesting.So a week after that, I try 1 tsp. margarine on a slice of bread. Most margarine, including the one I tried, has whey. No response. Yippee! So I try it again the next morning on toast. Five minutes until UR symptoms. Hmmm again. Maybe also allergic to whey, but not *as* allergic as to casein, and need a certain dosage to activate symptoms.So a week later, since I have had *no* upset tummy, but have had a UR-type allergic response, I try something I know has very little casein or whey or lactose, but tons of milkfat - butter. Upset tummy in no time flat. Aha. Is this milkfat? Could be - my gallbladder is not real efficient, and seems to dislike animal fats more than vegetable. So let's try a lactose-full dairy product with little fat - part-skim mozzerella cheese. Slight tummy trouble, UR symtoms.So I report to my GI doc, who states that although I do not appear to be lactose-intolerant in the clinical sense, I obviously have a mild sensitivity to dairy on a GI level, especially milkfat, and an allergy to casein, slight allergy to whey.This was all a year ago. I can tolerate very small amounts of low-fat dairy products. This usually amounts to a single chocolate once a week. But I've found acceptable subsitutes for everything except the mozzerella. The craving hasn't gotten teh best of me yet, but if it ever does, I'll take 1 preventive Imodium, 1 Benadryl, and eat that slice of pizza.In public, it's simply easier to say, "I'm allergic to milk," or, "I'm lactose intolerant", whether or not we are by the *medical* definitions thereof. *EVERYONE* is familiar with one or both of those designations. So, scientific types, please be gentle. I for one am only describing what happens to me personally - I'm not challenging your knowledge. I think that if we knew what worked for everyone with this disorder, this board would cease to exist... we'd all be cured and there would be no erason for it...------------------*JennT*


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Jenn--Milk is a complex mixture and it sounds like you have a fairly good handle on what parts of the milk bother you, and tested it out pretty completely. Using foods with known but different things in them.With allergies to the proteins in milk you may respond to small doses because allergic responses work sometimes with quite low doses. Lactose intolerance because it acts by a different mechanism (and wouldn't have the respiratory allergic symptoms you have with milk and milk products) requires a greater amount to have an effect.In the end if you've tested things well (and resterant food is a bad way to try to test these things because you can't read the labels and often they put extra fat and other things (MSG for example) in the food to make it taste good and you can't get accurate information on everything in it) and the food bothers you avoid it. However sometimes people may have one bad experience with something and try to draw a conclusion when sometimes IBS flares up for reasons other than food.It's like me and raisens. I know there is no good reason they make me sick, it's probably not even a physical reaction, but a bad brain correlation, but I generally avoid raisens. The problem can come in if you avoid too many foods particularly when you avoid foods that have nutritional value that is hard to get from other things based on inadequate testing. If you eat something that only makes you sick some of the time (when eating similar amounts--alot of foods make normal people feel sick when they really pig out on them) then it probably isn't a big deal. The goal is to try to avoid the foods that bother you without compromising the nutritional value of the diet overall.Ugh--The way I understand gene expression would indicate that not drinking milk could cause lactose intolerance in some people. You body has tens of thousands of genes. Most of them you only need every so often, and when you don't need them, you don't use them. Typcially you produce the most lactase when you are a baby and produce less when you are older. Some people may stop producing lactase all together (once the gene is off, it's off--and some people may not have symptoms even if it is off for good--there are mechanisms in the cell that could do that) but for alot of people the expression of the gene is turned on or off depending on whether or not your consuming lactose. So if you stop consuming lactose you don't make lactase. Sort of an energy conservation thing. Why waste resources making an protein you aren't going to use when you could be making proteins you currently need. And you often can't make things immediately. First the lactose would have to get to the right cells, the gene expression would have to get turned on, the lactase made and then processed and delivered. By that time, it may be too late for the lactose you ate. But you have lactase being made for awhile and it will help with the next meal/next day. But if you normally don't consume any lactose and then one day you have some, you may not have any lactase around and you could get symptoms, if you are one of the people that get symptoms from lactose. Daily consumption of lactose (at least with me it works pretty well) may be a way to prevent having lactose problems, because you keep the gene turned on. Now I don't know if daily consumption will prevent the turn this gene off for good, or reverse that, but if gene expression is in an easily turn on/turn off mode than certainly daily consumption would keep things turned on.------------------I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Jenn--Milk is a complex mixture and it sounds like you have a fairly good handle on what parts of the milk bother you, and tested it out pretty completely. Using foods with known but different things in them.With allergies to the proteins in milk you may respond to small doses because allergic responses work sometimes with quite low doses. Lactose intolerance because it acts by a different mechanism (and wouldn't have the respiratory allergic symptoms you have with milk and milk products) requires a greater amount to have an effect.In the end if you've tested things well (and resterant food is a bad way to try to test these things because you can't read the labels and often they put extra fat and other things (MSG for example) in the food to make it taste good and you can't get accurate information on everything in it) and the food bothers you avoid it. However sometimes people may have one bad experience with something and try to draw a conclusion when sometimes IBS flares up for reasons other than food.It's like me and raisens. I know there is no good reason they make me sick, it's probably not even a physical reaction, but a bad brain correlation, but I generally avoid raisens. The problem can come in if you avoid too many foods particularly when you avoid foods that have nutritional value that is hard to get from other things based on inadequate testing. If you eat something that only makes you sick some of the time (when eating similar amounts--alot of foods make normal people feel sick when they really pig out on them) then it probably isn't a big deal. The goal is to try to avoid the foods that bother you without compromising the nutritional value of the diet overall.Ugh--The way I understand gene expression would indicate that not drinking milk could cause lactose intolerance in some people. You body has tens of thousands of genes. Most of them you only need every so often, and when you don't need them, you don't use them. Typcially you produce the most lactase when you are a baby and produce less when you are older. Some people may stop producing lactase all together (once the gene is off, it's off--and some people may not have symptoms even if it is off for good--there are mechanisms in the cell that could do that) but for alot of people the expression of the gene is turned on or off depending on whether or not your consuming lactose. So if you stop consuming lactose you don't make lactase. Sort of an energy conservation thing. Why waste resources making an protein you aren't going to use when you could be making proteins you currently need. And you often can't make things immediately. First the lactose would have to get to the right cells, the gene expression would have to get turned on, the lactase made and then processed and delivered. By that time, it may be too late for the lactose you ate. But you have lactase being made for awhile and it will help with the next meal/next day. But if you normally don't consume any lactose and then one day you have some, you may not have any lactase around and you could get symptoms, if you are one of the people that get symptoms from lactose. Daily consumption of lactose (at least with me it works pretty well) may be a way to prevent having lactose problems, because you keep the gene turned on. Now I don't know if daily consumption will prevent the turn this gene off for good, or reverse that, but if gene expression is in an easily turn on/turn off mode than certainly daily consumption would keep things turned on.------------------I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html


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## atp (Jan 18, 2001)

Flux, I don't think I've ever seen you mention your symptoms on here, just question others' observations about theirs. Do you even have IBS? And what are your symptoms if you do, and what do you do to help them?Flux quoting me and his response:-----------------quote:How do you counter my example of easily identifiable bits of salad I ate only an hour and a half ago or so?Since your observation does not accompany what should happen if the observation were true(mainly that you'd be suffering massive malabsorption and probably be too sick to write what you wrote), I am ready to believe you are just misintepreting what you are seeing. That whatever it is you are seeing is not from the salad you ate, but something from a previous meal (maybe even several days earlier!). That is the more believable of the two possibities._____________________When I have a bad D attack, you'd think I'd just taken GoLytely sometimes. I do worry about absorption and nutition when I'm having a lot of bad attacks. It is not the norm for me to have that rapid of transit, but it DOES happen with a bad attack.


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## atp (Jan 18, 2001)

Flux, I don't think I've ever seen you mention your symptoms on here, just question others' observations about theirs. Do you even have IBS? And what are your symptoms if you do, and what do you do to help them?Flux quoting me and his response:-----------------quote:How do you counter my example of easily identifiable bits of salad I ate only an hour and a half ago or so?Since your observation does not accompany what should happen if the observation were true(mainly that you'd be suffering massive malabsorption and probably be too sick to write what you wrote), I am ready to believe you are just misintepreting what you are seeing. That whatever it is you are seeing is not from the salad you ate, but something from a previous meal (maybe even several days earlier!). That is the more believable of the two possibities._____________________When I have a bad D attack, you'd think I'd just taken GoLytely sometimes. I do worry about absorption and nutition when I'm having a lot of bad attacks. It is not the norm for me to have that rapid of transit, but it DOES happen with a bad attack.


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## LisaL (Nov 14, 2000)

Atp,I second your questions. Life on this board was a lot more enjoyable when Flux was kicked off.


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## LisaL (Nov 14, 2000)

Atp,I second your questions. Life on this board was a lot more enjoyable when Flux was kicked off.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Flux, could you go into more greater detail on that one. Are you saying that only people who don't drink milk get LI?


I'm saying that only Western-based adults have been tested. We don't really know how LI affects babies or people in say China where lactase enzyme is in short supply.


> quote:Here is a passage from an editorial by Suarez and Levitt that kind of sums up some of this discussion and


Which one is this? It isn't familiar.


> quote:I don't think I've ever seen you mention your symptoms


See my sig.------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Flux, could you go into more greater detail on that one. Are you saying that only people who don't drink milk get LI?


I'm saying that only Western-based adults have been tested. We don't really know how LI affects babies or people in say China where lactase enzyme is in short supply.


> quote:Here is a passage from an editorial by Suarez and Levitt that kind of sums up some of this discussion and


Which one is this? It isn't familiar.


> quote:I don't think I've ever seen you mention your symptoms


See my sig.------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

> quote:Which one is this? It isn't familiar.


Abdominal symptoms and lactose:the discrepancy between patient's claims and the results of blinded trials Author:Suarez F, Levitt MD., Volume:64 Issue:2, Page:251-2 Year:1996 Aug Source:Am J Clin Nutr, ID:8694029


> quote:Life on this board was a lot more enjoyable when Flux was kicked off.


Dozens of us disagree


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

> quote:Which one is this? It isn't familiar.


Abdominal symptoms and lactose:the discrepancy between patient's claims and the results of blinded trials Author:Suarez F, Levitt MD., Volume:64 Issue:2, Page:251-2 Year:1996 Aug Source:Am J Clin Nutr, ID:8694029


> quote:Life on this board was a lot more enjoyable when Flux was kicked off.


Dozens of us disagree


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

deleted- double post[This message has been edited by bonniei (edited 07-17-2001).]


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

deleted- double post[This message has been edited by bonniei (edited 07-17-2001).]


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2001)

Flux- when you say only "Westernized" individuals have been tested what exactly are you saying? How many of the people tested were of the African American, Chinese American, or Indian American persuasion, given that these individuals are from ethnic populations with 75% LI rates ? For years you have argued that LI did not exist, merely lactose malabsorpion. You've also argued for years that food cannot pass in someone's mouth and out their butt in an hour or so. But people know very well what they are seeing with their own eyes and experiencing with their bodies and it is extremely arrogant and condescending of you to argue with them but you've been doing it for years. As far as the IBS doctors are concerned, most of them don't know their butts from a hole in the ground. As far as the sodium lactate is concerned, I drank 7 Up after eating some of the candy and one piece of candy while drinking 7 Up and I noticed that the two together generated a lot of fizzle which I considered might have been responsible but I minimized the relevancy of that aspect when I noticed *sodium lactate*.


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2001)

Flux- when you say only "Westernized" individuals have been tested what exactly are you saying? How many of the people tested were of the African American, Chinese American, or Indian American persuasion, given that these individuals are from ethnic populations with 75% LI rates ? For years you have argued that LI did not exist, merely lactose malabsorpion. You've also argued for years that food cannot pass in someone's mouth and out their butt in an hour or so. But people know very well what they are seeing with their own eyes and experiencing with their bodies and it is extremely arrogant and condescending of you to argue with them but you've been doing it for years. As far as the IBS doctors are concerned, most of them don't know their butts from a hole in the ground. As far as the sodium lactate is concerned, I drank 7 Up after eating some of the candy and one piece of candy while drinking 7 Up and I noticed that the two together generated a lot of fizzle which I considered might have been responsible but I minimized the relevancy of that aspect when I noticed *sodium lactate*.


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## atp (Jan 18, 2001)

Flux, I realize you have a great deal of research at your disposal, but you cite research without answering people's specific questions. Your info can be useful, but I find your habit of picking and choosing brief passages to respond to, and often not addressing the main point, to be irksome.I really am curious as to whether you have ever suffered from IBS or another illness with similar symptoms. While one can be understanding, I think it's hard for one to truly understand some symptoms unless they've experienced them themselves. For instance, C-types who haven't pooped in days have my sympathy, but I have NO idea how that feels. Similarly, I don't think most guys could imagine what menstrual cramps feel like.I know sometimes people misinterpret their symptoms, but we know better than anyone else how our body is feeling. Sometimes a devil's advocate approach is needed, but sometimes I feel as if you're telling me my liquid BM is solid, and I'm just not looking at it correctly. I may not spend my days reading medical journals, but I am an intelligent, educated person. (Despite some errors that appear in posts when I'm typing fast!







)So, flux, you did not answer my question. Do you have IBS?? Surely any experienced (or inexperienced, for that matter) researcher would see that my question was not answered in the following sig: "I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/ pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received." I already knew those things. But I still don't know if you have IBS.


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## atp (Jan 18, 2001)

Flux, I realize you have a great deal of research at your disposal, but you cite research without answering people's specific questions. Your info can be useful, but I find your habit of picking and choosing brief passages to respond to, and often not addressing the main point, to be irksome.I really am curious as to whether you have ever suffered from IBS or another illness with similar symptoms. While one can be understanding, I think it's hard for one to truly understand some symptoms unless they've experienced them themselves. For instance, C-types who haven't pooped in days have my sympathy, but I have NO idea how that feels. Similarly, I don't think most guys could imagine what menstrual cramps feel like.I know sometimes people misinterpret their symptoms, but we know better than anyone else how our body is feeling. Sometimes a devil's advocate approach is needed, but sometimes I feel as if you're telling me my liquid BM is solid, and I'm just not looking at it correctly. I may not spend my days reading medical journals, but I am an intelligent, educated person. (Despite some errors that appear in posts when I'm typing fast!







)So, flux, you did not answer my question. Do you have IBS?? Surely any experienced (or inexperienced, for that matter) researcher would see that my question was not answered in the following sig: "I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/ pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received." I already knew those things. But I still don't know if you have IBS.


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## Julia37 (May 9, 2001)

Ok, I'm going to spell out the obvious for Flux and the other skeptics.If I was to sit down and type all the symptoms I've ever had, all the tests(medical and empirical) I've had, and every single conclusion they've led to about the body I live in, I'd be here for weeks and none of you would have time to read it! I've given examples in my posts of experiences that *illustrate* my LI - and that was found when my doctor suggested I avoid dairy for 2 weeks and see what happened. Within a few days my lower ab symptoms were gone, and upper ab symptoms much better. I also think it significant that she did not do a medical test for LI, she is very well informed and probably knew, as we've seen here, that it's not very accurate. I stand by that opinion no matter who condescends to me.I think what Flux was referring to in his incoherent and arrogant way are simple statistics that are posted on the LI web site, which I'll look up and post when I have more time. LI is a genetic tendency that breaks down as follows: Africans 95%, Asians 90%, Hispanics 75%, Caucasians 15%. I memorized this because I like technical details. Also, there's obviously a lot not known, and I wouldn't be surprised if the actual percentages in each group were higher. Or if there's more than one mechanism at work - intolerance, malabsorption, allergy.I find Flux's attitude extremely annoying because that's the exact way I was treated by doctors all my life until my current one, and the reason I never enjoyed reasonably good health until this year. Every doctor I saw dismissed the things I said about *my own experiences* with a condescending smile and words like "impossible". I figured out by myself I'm allergic to soy with no support - the net wasn't available yet. That was much harder than dealing with LI and the current malabsorption of sugars testing. This is easy by comparison. If my so-called doctors had had their way, I would probably be dead from overmedication or a congestion related illness right now. So consider that, Flux, the next time you dismiss what people say about THEIR EXPERIENCES WITH THEIR OWN BODIES! Grrrrr.....But I have to teach myself not to waste time getting mad at Flux - he's clearly got an axe to grind and nothing better to do than insult us.


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## Julia37 (May 9, 2001)

Ok, I'm going to spell out the obvious for Flux and the other skeptics.If I was to sit down and type all the symptoms I've ever had, all the tests(medical and empirical) I've had, and every single conclusion they've led to about the body I live in, I'd be here for weeks and none of you would have time to read it! I've given examples in my posts of experiences that *illustrate* my LI - and that was found when my doctor suggested I avoid dairy for 2 weeks and see what happened. Within a few days my lower ab symptoms were gone, and upper ab symptoms much better. I also think it significant that she did not do a medical test for LI, she is very well informed and probably knew, as we've seen here, that it's not very accurate. I stand by that opinion no matter who condescends to me.I think what Flux was referring to in his incoherent and arrogant way are simple statistics that are posted on the LI web site, which I'll look up and post when I have more time. LI is a genetic tendency that breaks down as follows: Africans 95%, Asians 90%, Hispanics 75%, Caucasians 15%. I memorized this because I like technical details. Also, there's obviously a lot not known, and I wouldn't be surprised if the actual percentages in each group were higher. Or if there's more than one mechanism at work - intolerance, malabsorption, allergy.I find Flux's attitude extremely annoying because that's the exact way I was treated by doctors all my life until my current one, and the reason I never enjoyed reasonably good health until this year. Every doctor I saw dismissed the things I said about *my own experiences* with a condescending smile and words like "impossible". I figured out by myself I'm allergic to soy with no support - the net wasn't available yet. That was much harder than dealing with LI and the current malabsorption of sugars testing. This is easy by comparison. If my so-called doctors had had their way, I would probably be dead from overmedication or a congestion related illness right now. So consider that, Flux, the next time you dismiss what people say about THEIR EXPERIENCES WITH THEIR OWN BODIES! Grrrrr.....But I have to teach myself not to waste time getting mad at Flux - he's clearly got an axe to grind and nothing better to do than insult us.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Flux- when you say only "Westernized" individuals have been tested what exactly are you saying?


They were everyday adult people living in Minneapolis-St. Paul. I don't think their ethnic backgrounds were recorded or controlled for. I suspect that few if any were not born in America. I suspect that most of these people drink or had drank milk growing up. I would not be surprised if they had tested people who were LI and never had milk at all, they would have gotten different results.


> quote:But people know very well what they are seeing with their own eyes and experiencing with their bodies


There are times when this is so and times when it is not. For IBS symptoms, these studies seem to tell us that it is usually not the case.


> quote:You've also argued for years that food cannot pass in someone's mouth and out their butt in an hour or so.


Actually, I have *never* said this. When I evaluate this particular observation, I ask what could account for this observation and what consequences would it have. It normally takes *hours* to digest and absorb food and it takes *hours more* for the colon to process it. Had all that time been short-circuited, a person couldn't be getting *any* nourishment. The consequences would be *devastating*. Such is the case for people who have short-bowel syndrome. Most of their intestine is gone. Food so rapidly passes through them, eating is useless for nutrition: that is, they do suffer from this symptom, all the time in fact! They must either be tube-fed high-fat diets or rely on intravenous feeding. Clearly, this is not the case for IBS. In fact, IBS subjects do not have any malabsorption problems that have been detected thus far and they are from a nutritional point of view, healthy. So what conclusion can be reached? That some IBSers have such rapid transit that they can rival those who suffer from no intestine but at the same time, they are wholly healthy or simply that their observation is inaccurate. The latter clearly explains the situation without resorting to paradoxes.


> quote:'ve given examples in my posts of experiences that *illustrate* my LI


The examples you have given illustrate that you do *not* have LI.------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Flux- when you say only "Westernized" individuals have been tested what exactly are you saying?


They were everyday adult people living in Minneapolis-St. Paul. I don't think their ethnic backgrounds were recorded or controlled for. I suspect that few if any were not born in America. I suspect that most of these people drink or had drank milk growing up. I would not be surprised if they had tested people who were LI and never had milk at all, they would have gotten different results.


> quote:But people know very well what they are seeing with their own eyes and experiencing with their bodies


There are times when this is so and times when it is not. For IBS symptoms, these studies seem to tell us that it is usually not the case.


> quote:You've also argued for years that food cannot pass in someone's mouth and out their butt in an hour or so.


Actually, I have *never* said this. When I evaluate this particular observation, I ask what could account for this observation and what consequences would it have. It normally takes *hours* to digest and absorb food and it takes *hours more* for the colon to process it. Had all that time been short-circuited, a person couldn't be getting *any* nourishment. The consequences would be *devastating*. Such is the case for people who have short-bowel syndrome. Most of their intestine is gone. Food so rapidly passes through them, eating is useless for nutrition: that is, they do suffer from this symptom, all the time in fact! They must either be tube-fed high-fat diets or rely on intravenous feeding. Clearly, this is not the case for IBS. In fact, IBS subjects do not have any malabsorption problems that have been detected thus far and they are from a nutritional point of view, healthy. So what conclusion can be reached? That some IBSers have such rapid transit that they can rival those who suffer from no intestine but at the same time, they are wholly healthy or simply that their observation is inaccurate. The latter clearly explains the situation without resorting to paradoxes.


> quote:'ve given examples in my posts of experiences that *illustrate* my LI


The examples you have given illustrate that you do *not* have LI.------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.


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## JennT (Jul 17, 2000)

Great - yet another thread that has turned into Flux-lovers vs. Flux-haters. <sigh>------------------*JennT*I'm sorry - that remark was a little mean of me, to both the Flux-lovers and the Flux-haters. It's really simple - if you like what Flux (or anyone, for that matter) has to say, run with it. If you don't, ignore it. Or do what I (usually) do, and take the information that pertains to you personally and ignore the rest. As I think I stated in an earlier post, it doesn't really matter whether one is LI or malabsorbing milk proteins, or allergic, or milkfat-intolerant, or what-have-you... if you can't handle it, you can't handle it, whatever the mechanism.I didn't mean to be cranky; I just get very tired of thread getting into bashing (and then defending) each other, rather than being supportive. My 2 cents.[This message has been edited by JennT (edited 07-19-2001).]


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## JennT (Jul 17, 2000)

Great - yet another thread that has turned into Flux-lovers vs. Flux-haters. <sigh>------------------*JennT*I'm sorry - that remark was a little mean of me, to both the Flux-lovers and the Flux-haters. It's really simple - if you like what Flux (or anyone, for that matter) has to say, run with it. If you don't, ignore it. Or do what I (usually) do, and take the information that pertains to you personally and ignore the rest. As I think I stated in an earlier post, it doesn't really matter whether one is LI or malabsorbing milk proteins, or allergic, or milkfat-intolerant, or what-have-you... if you can't handle it, you can't handle it, whatever the mechanism.I didn't mean to be cranky; I just get very tired of thread getting into bashing (and then defending) each other, rather than being supportive. My 2 cents.[This message has been edited by JennT (edited 07-19-2001).]


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

> quote:yet another thread that has turned into Flux-lovers vs. Flux-haters


Normally-when the threads degenerate it is usually just the flux bashers vs flux and flux never responds. I feel that that is an unfair situation. So I have come to flux's defence a couple of times. But maybe it is not such a smart idea. It takes away from the main topic so I will refrain from doing so in the future


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

> quote:yet another thread that has turned into Flux-lovers vs. Flux-haters


Normally-when the threads degenerate it is usually just the flux bashers vs flux and flux never responds. I feel that that is an unfair situation. So I have come to flux's defence a couple of times. But maybe it is not such a smart idea. It takes away from the main topic so I will refrain from doing so in the future


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

> quote:------------------------------------------------------------------------quote: You've also argued for years that food cannot pass in someone's mouth and out their butt in an hour or so.------------------------------------------------------------------------Actually, I have never said this. When I evaluate this particular observation, I ask what could account for this observation and what consequences would it have. It normally takes hours to digest and absorb food and it takes hours more for the colon to process it. Had all that time been short-circuited, a person couldn't be getting any nourishment. The consequences would be devastating.


I have on rare occasion seen something go through me this fast. When I have food poisoning this will happen in an hour or so. But I am very sick at the time. I could see it happening once in a great while, but some people claim that most if not everything they eat is out of the body in less than an hour and in that case they would be quite ill. The few times it has happened to me I am quite ill at the time and this only occurs after everything in the system has already been dumped. The first quite a bit of stuff that comes out at first has to be from previous meals (in a normal person up to as many as 9 meals ago), but after several hours of diarrhea that is mostly water anything I eat can be out of the sytem in 1-3 hours. Generally at these times I am home sick from work and ususally don't have the energy to be posting to bb's







Most of the time what looks like something I just ate is most likely something from the day before. Fiberous material is particularly hard to identify properly------------------I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html [This message has been edited by kmottus (edited 07-19-2001).]


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

> quote:------------------------------------------------------------------------quote: You've also argued for years that food cannot pass in someone's mouth and out their butt in an hour or so.------------------------------------------------------------------------Actually, I have never said this. When I evaluate this particular observation, I ask what could account for this observation and what consequences would it have. It normally takes hours to digest and absorb food and it takes hours more for the colon to process it. Had all that time been short-circuited, a person couldn't be getting any nourishment. The consequences would be devastating.


I have on rare occasion seen something go through me this fast. When I have food poisoning this will happen in an hour or so. But I am very sick at the time. I could see it happening once in a great while, but some people claim that most if not everything they eat is out of the body in less than an hour and in that case they would be quite ill. The few times it has happened to me I am quite ill at the time and this only occurs after everything in the system has already been dumped. The first quite a bit of stuff that comes out at first has to be from previous meals (in a normal person up to as many as 9 meals ago), but after several hours of diarrhea that is mostly water anything I eat can be out of the sytem in 1-3 hours. Generally at these times I am home sick from work and ususally don't have the energy to be posting to bb's







Most of the time what looks like something I just ate is most likely something from the day before. Fiberous material is particularly hard to identify properly------------------I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html [This message has been edited by kmottus (edited 07-19-2001).]


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## atp (Jan 18, 2001)

K, that is what my symptoms are like during a particularly bad episode. It is certainly not the norm for me, but it has happened. There was one time when I wonder if I did have food poisoning...a nice meal at a restaurant, pre-IBS days, meant I spent the rest of the night in the bathroom. And I could see bits of orange carrot, red cabbage, and lettuce in the toilet. Everything seemed to be flushed out of my system. Others have mentioned in other threads seeing salad bits during an attack.And I'm trying to be nice here. But I'm frustrated that an entire post directed at flux received no reply. Would you please at least give me a yes or no to the question "Do you now, and have you ever, suffered from IBS?"


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## atp (Jan 18, 2001)

K, that is what my symptoms are like during a particularly bad episode. It is certainly not the norm for me, but it has happened. There was one time when I wonder if I did have food poisoning...a nice meal at a restaurant, pre-IBS days, meant I spent the rest of the night in the bathroom. And I could see bits of orange carrot, red cabbage, and lettuce in the toilet. Everything seemed to be flushed out of my system. Others have mentioned in other threads seeing salad bits during an attack.And I'm trying to be nice here. But I'm frustrated that an entire post directed at flux received no reply. Would you please at least give me a yes or no to the question "Do you now, and have you ever, suffered from IBS?"


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## LisaL (Nov 14, 2000)

Atp,I think we need to pray for Flux. It is obvious he has a problem communicating on a human level. Perhaps he is not a well loved individual, and needs to make other people unhappy to give himself kicks. It is clear that he has never had IBS, or he wouldn't hesitate answering you.I also don't think he's ever suffered because his responses never include real, usable suggestions. I feel very sorry him at this point and time, and suggest that we just ignore his responses. KMottus is very knowledgable, but also nice.I would try asking him things from now on. I believe we need to be loving to people, but not when they are as repeatedly nasty and miserable like Flux is.He probably hops on other boards like this for different illnesses and does the same thing!Take Care.


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## LisaL (Nov 14, 2000)

Atp,I think we need to pray for Flux. It is obvious he has a problem communicating on a human level. Perhaps he is not a well loved individual, and needs to make other people unhappy to give himself kicks. It is clear that he has never had IBS, or he wouldn't hesitate answering you.I also don't think he's ever suffered because his responses never include real, usable suggestions. I feel very sorry him at this point and time, and suggest that we just ignore his responses. KMottus is very knowledgable, but also nice.I would try asking him things from now on. I believe we need to be loving to people, but not when they are as repeatedly nasty and miserable like Flux is.He probably hops on other boards like this for different illnesses and does the same thing!Take Care.


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## LisaL (Nov 14, 2000)

atp,I want to suggest to you that you ask KMottus for help when you need it, as he is knowledgable AND nice. Flux will never answer you - we just need to pray for him. Maybe one day he will soften up.Take Care.


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## LisaL (Nov 14, 2000)

atp,I want to suggest to you that you ask KMottus for help when you need it, as he is knowledgable AND nice. Flux will never answer you - we just need to pray for him. Maybe one day he will soften up.Take Care.


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## atp (Jan 18, 2001)

Actually, Kmottus is a woman. I think several people have mistaken her for a he before.I hope she realizes how much I (and lots of others!) appreciate the help and info she shares with others on this board. Sometimes I'm amazed she has time to help so many people, but I think it's wonderful that she does. Thanks, K!!


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## atp (Jan 18, 2001)

Actually, Kmottus is a woman. I think several people have mistaken her for a he before.I hope she realizes how much I (and lots of others!) appreciate the help and info she shares with others on this board. Sometimes I'm amazed she has time to help so many people, but I think it's wonderful that she does. Thanks, K!!


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

<blushing> Thanks guys.Every time I go to the genecologist they still think I am a woman







.The screen name is purposefully asexual and with all the scientific training makes my writing style seem more male than female. Doesn't bother me to be misidentified her. As long as in person they can still tell I'm a girl.K.------------------I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

<blushing> Thanks guys.Every time I go to the genecologist they still think I am a woman







.The screen name is purposefully asexual and with all the scientific training makes my writing style seem more male than female. Doesn't bother me to be misidentified her. As long as in person they can still tell I'm a girl.K.------------------I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html


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## Ugh (Jan 30, 2001)

> quote:Would you please at least give me a yes or no to the question "Do you now, and have you ever, suffered from IBS?"


I'm not here to defend Flux, but this question is ridiculous. If you were simply asking it out of curiousity that would be one thing, but you obviously are asking for some other reason. I don't see how a posters health should have anything to do with their opinions. If your GI tells you something you don't agree with, do you also ask him if he has IBS?


> quote:the next time you dismiss what people say about THEIR EXPERIENCES WITH THEIR OWN BODIES! Grrrrr.....


I'm not trying to be insulting or anything like that. I think the point being made is that many of these studies show that the things people are sure about with their bodies often are not the case.[This message has been edited by Ugh (edited 07-19-2001).]


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## Ugh (Jan 30, 2001)

> quote:Would you please at least give me a yes or no to the question "Do you now, and have you ever, suffered from IBS?"


I'm not here to defend Flux, but this question is ridiculous. If you were simply asking it out of curiousity that would be one thing, but you obviously are asking for some other reason. I don't see how a posters health should have anything to do with their opinions. If your GI tells you something you don't agree with, do you also ask him if he has IBS?


> quote:the next time you dismiss what people say about THEIR EXPERIENCES WITH THEIR OWN BODIES! Grrrrr.....


I'm not trying to be insulting or anything like that. I think the point being made is that many of these studies show that the things people are sure about with their bodies often are not the case.[This message has been edited by Ugh (edited 07-19-2001).]


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## Julia37 (May 9, 2001)

Here is the lactose intolerance web site I mentioned. A search on Yahoo also found a few others I haven't looked at yet.I don't feel the need any more because I've learned to live without dairy. Living without sugar and soy products are both harder. But I hope you all find it helpful. http://www.lactoseintolerant.org/


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## Julia37 (May 9, 2001)

Here is the lactose intolerance web site I mentioned. A search on Yahoo also found a few others I haven't looked at yet.I don't feel the need any more because I've learned to live without dairy. Living without sugar and soy products are both harder. But I hope you all find it helpful. http://www.lactoseintolerant.org/


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## atp (Jan 18, 2001)

Ugh,You're right, it is more than just curiousity now, because now I'm frustrated that my initial question was danced around and not answered. It helps me to know where someone is coming from a lot of the times. I often try to put myself in someone else's shoes, particularly if we disagree on a point. Sometimes I really appreciate the devil's advocate viewpoint that some, including flux, provide at times. Sometimes comments come across as rude, or they are misinterpreted in this typewritten medium when nuances of tone can be missed or misinterpreted at times.I was curious about flux's IBS status because he does not seem to understand how people with certain symptoms (such as gas) are feeling, and questions the validity of the symptoms. I was guessing that gas was not much, if any, of a problem for him, and that he either did not have IBS himself or was in remission. I wanted to know how accurate my guessing was.No, my dr. doesn't have IBS, but the one time I saw one who did, when my regular dr was out, it was great because we were exchanging tips (he likes peppermint oil capsules) and he truly understood what I meant when I was talking about symptoms. He also recognized the symptoms of fibromyalgia in me, and tested for tender points, etc, because he has that and was able to recognize it, when it is often missed for years by physicians.Thanks (I forget to who..sorry!) for the LI website...I'll have to check that out. I'm hoping it might have lactose contents of different foods on it? That is something I've often wished I had.


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## atp (Jan 18, 2001)

Ugh,You're right, it is more than just curiousity now, because now I'm frustrated that my initial question was danced around and not answered. It helps me to know where someone is coming from a lot of the times. I often try to put myself in someone else's shoes, particularly if we disagree on a point. Sometimes I really appreciate the devil's advocate viewpoint that some, including flux, provide at times. Sometimes comments come across as rude, or they are misinterpreted in this typewritten medium when nuances of tone can be missed or misinterpreted at times.I was curious about flux's IBS status because he does not seem to understand how people with certain symptoms (such as gas) are feeling, and questions the validity of the symptoms. I was guessing that gas was not much, if any, of a problem for him, and that he either did not have IBS himself or was in remission. I wanted to know how accurate my guessing was.No, my dr. doesn't have IBS, but the one time I saw one who did, when my regular dr was out, it was great because we were exchanging tips (he likes peppermint oil capsules) and he truly understood what I meant when I was talking about symptoms. He also recognized the symptoms of fibromyalgia in me, and tested for tender points, etc, because he has that and was able to recognize it, when it is often missed for years by physicians.Thanks (I forget to who..sorry!) for the LI website...I'll have to check that out. I'm hoping it might have lactose contents of different foods on it? That is something I've often wished I had.


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2001)

This isn't really relevant to LI - I do have trouble digesting lactose or something in milk but more importantly, or at least more urgently, I have a definite intolerance for pork. I know this is very unusual, but if I ingest even the smallest amount of pork I usually start having diarrhea within 20 minutes which can, and often does, continue every 10 to 15 minutes for a couple of hours. It is as if I've swallowed Draino or something. When I say a little, I mean a miniscule amount, for instance, once I had a vegetarian sandwich from a restaurant. My friend had a ham sandwich. The chef cut her sandwich first and just from that I had severe D for the next 3 hours. This has been the case for over 12 years. Needless to say, I'm VERY careful but accidents do happen. So as for food exiting the body very, very quickly, I would have to agree that it is very possible. I may be wrong but I believe this is because part of the intestine goes into a spasm. Just my 2 cents.Colleen


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2001)

This isn't really relevant to LI - I do have trouble digesting lactose or something in milk but more importantly, or at least more urgently, I have a definite intolerance for pork. I know this is very unusual, but if I ingest even the smallest amount of pork I usually start having diarrhea within 20 minutes which can, and often does, continue every 10 to 15 minutes for a couple of hours. It is as if I've swallowed Draino or something. When I say a little, I mean a miniscule amount, for instance, once I had a vegetarian sandwich from a restaurant. My friend had a ham sandwich. The chef cut her sandwich first and just from that I had severe D for the next 3 hours. This has been the case for over 12 years. Needless to say, I'm VERY careful but accidents do happen. So as for food exiting the body very, very quickly, I would have to agree that it is very possible. I may be wrong but I believe this is because part of the intestine goes into a spasm. Just my 2 cents.Colleen


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

It probably takes more than just spasms to dump the intestines out quickly.Histamine, OTOH, could be part of the problem and if that small amount causes a reaction we may be talking a food allergy type response.Histamine which is released in responce to allergens (amoung other things) when released in the gut causes the following things to happen.1 Water is dumped into the center of the intestine2. Mucus is released into the colon(the dilute and coat part of the reaction)3. Then wave after wave of peristalsis occurs forcing everything to the anus ASAP.When you spasms it may or may not be in a coordinated way to push things out, but the response to histamine is specificaly to push things out.K.------------------I am a scientific researcher primarily in the area of the environment and the impact of environmental factors on human health, I have no ties to the pharmaceutical industry. I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial, natural, or any other product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

It probably takes more than just spasms to dump the intestines out quickly.Histamine, OTOH, could be part of the problem and if that small amount causes a reaction we may be talking a food allergy type response.Histamine which is released in responce to allergens (amoung other things) when released in the gut causes the following things to happen.1 Water is dumped into the center of the intestine2. Mucus is released into the colon(the dilute and coat part of the reaction)3. Then wave after wave of peristalsis occurs forcing everything to the anus ASAP.When you spasms it may or may not be in a coordinated way to push things out, but the response to histamine is specificaly to push things out.K.------------------I am a scientific researcher primarily in the area of the environment and the impact of environmental factors on human health, I have no ties to the pharmaceutical industry. I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial, natural, or any other product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2001)

Next question - given what you've just said, why doesn't Immodium work in those situations? If my problem is histamines, what can be done about it?Colleen


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2001)

Next question - given what you've just said, why doesn't Immodium work in those situations? If my problem is histamines, what can be done about it?Colleen


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

An antihistamine may be more appropiate.When I had a response like that from an allergy shot a shot of Bendryl in the butt made me right as rain in about 2 minutes. (Fortunately I was already in the bathroom with my pants down....the poor Doctor had to give me the shot in there because I wasn't gonna leave my best friend the toilet for love nor money)Taking it orally will take a bit longer as it has to dissolve and all. But if it works that would tend to bolster the histamine hypothesis.It may even be worth taking a Benedryl 20 minutes or so before any suspect meal. When antihistamines are in place before you are exposed they tend to be more effective.Imodium may not be strong enough to counter histamine. Histamine provokes some very strong reactions as it's real role in the gut (it is not there just to make us miserable







) is to flush parasites out of the body.K.------------------I am a scientific researcher primarily in the area of the environment and the impact of environmental factors on human health, I have no ties to the pharmaceutical industry. I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial, natural, or any other product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html[This message has been edited by kmottus (edited 08-30-2001).]


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

An antihistamine may be more appropiate.When I had a response like that from an allergy shot a shot of Bendryl in the butt made me right as rain in about 2 minutes. (Fortunately I was already in the bathroom with my pants down....the poor Doctor had to give me the shot in there because I wasn't gonna leave my best friend the toilet for love nor money)Taking it orally will take a bit longer as it has to dissolve and all. But if it works that would tend to bolster the histamine hypothesis.It may even be worth taking a Benedryl 20 minutes or so before any suspect meal. When antihistamines are in place before you are exposed they tend to be more effective.Imodium may not be strong enough to counter histamine. Histamine provokes some very strong reactions as it's real role in the gut (it is not there just to make us miserable







) is to flush parasites out of the body.K.------------------I am a scientific researcher primarily in the area of the environment and the impact of environmental factors on human health, I have no ties to the pharmaceutical industry. I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial, natural, or any other product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html[This message has been edited by kmottus (edited 08-30-2001).]


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## JennT (Jul 17, 2000)

I gotta tell you guys, that maybe one dose of a lactose-filled pill wouldn't hurt me, but when it's something that I have to take twice a day forever, it builds up in my system. After about a week of *unknowingly* getting lactose in the off-brand metformin (I usually take the Glucophage brand), my stomach was upset like you wouldn't believe. I had no deviated from my IBS-friendly diet, and had had no unusual stress, so I checked with the manufacturer of the pills, and guess what!? Lactose is the first ingredient besides the active ones. I have to go by what my gut tells me (pun intended)------------------*JennT*


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## JennT (Jul 17, 2000)

I gotta tell you guys, that maybe one dose of a lactose-filled pill wouldn't hurt me, but when it's something that I have to take twice a day forever, it builds up in my system. After about a week of *unknowingly* getting lactose in the off-brand metformin (I usually take the Glucophage brand), my stomach was upset like you wouldn't believe. I had no deviated from my IBS-friendly diet, and had had no unusual stress, so I checked with the manufacturer of the pills, and guess what!? Lactose is the first ingredient besides the active ones. I have to go by what my gut tells me (pun intended)------------------*JennT*


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2001)

Thank you. I'm going to give that a try.Colleen


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2001)

Thank you. I'm going to give that a try.Colleen


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## Clair (Sep 16, 2000)

Sorry if I'm double posting something already mentioned...but well I didn't have the attention span to read all the posts







One thing I have noticed is that all the meals that you have mentioned Groucho also have wheat in them, wwhich is another common food substance that can cause problems for IBS'ers.bear with me here.....


> quote:I know I can't tolerate that - Last May I ate at a restaurant and didn't take any lactaid. I had pasta with spinach and what appeared to be an olive oil sauce, and vesuvio chicken pieces that appeared to have a broth sauce. Exactly one hour after I ate I had the exact symptoms I used to get before I learned I'm LI - bloating in lower abdo, cramps, a BM, then fatigue the rest of the evening. If there had been any amount close to a cup of milk in that food, I would have seen it and taken lactaid.


and.....


> quote:I've also noticed that when I take lactaid with dairy intensive foods - Chicago style pan pizza in this case - I don't get bloating or pains, but it passes through my system and I have a large BM within 3 hours


and....


> quote:Also noticed the lack of energy effect.


I have read an article recently in my doctor's surgery saying that eating too much wheat in your diet can cause a lack of energy, bloating, pains and stomach upsets.FWIW I would try investigating if cutting out wheat from your diet for a few weeks has any positive benefits for you.Remember it is advisable to carry out any elimniation diets with your doctor's and a nutritionalists support to ensure you are getting the right nutrients for your body.Just adding my tuppence in so to speak....hope you get to the bottom of the problem.Clair


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## Clair (Sep 16, 2000)

Sorry if I'm double posting something already mentioned...but well I didn't have the attention span to read all the posts







One thing I have noticed is that all the meals that you have mentioned Groucho also have wheat in them, wwhich is another common food substance that can cause problems for IBS'ers.bear with me here.....


> quote:I know I can't tolerate that - Last May I ate at a restaurant and didn't take any lactaid. I had pasta with spinach and what appeared to be an olive oil sauce, and vesuvio chicken pieces that appeared to have a broth sauce. Exactly one hour after I ate I had the exact symptoms I used to get before I learned I'm LI - bloating in lower abdo, cramps, a BM, then fatigue the rest of the evening. If there had been any amount close to a cup of milk in that food, I would have seen it and taken lactaid.


and.....


> quote:I've also noticed that when I take lactaid with dairy intensive foods - Chicago style pan pizza in this case - I don't get bloating or pains, but it passes through my system and I have a large BM within 3 hours


and....


> quote:Also noticed the lack of energy effect.


I have read an article recently in my doctor's surgery saying that eating too much wheat in your diet can cause a lack of energy, bloating, pains and stomach upsets.FWIW I would try investigating if cutting out wheat from your diet for a few weeks has any positive benefits for you.Remember it is advisable to carry out any elimniation diets with your doctor's and a nutritionalists support to ensure you are getting the right nutrients for your body.Just adding my tuppence in so to speak....hope you get to the bottom of the problem.Clair


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## Clair (Sep 16, 2000)

K,I've also had an experience where food I have eaten has gone in my mouth and out my butt within an hour.I ate some cheese pastry straws with poppy seeds for the first time ever one saturday lunchtime at 12 o clock - at 1 o clock (yes 1 hour later) I had severe D cramps - and out came mush with yes..you guessed it those darn poppy seeds.Since I had only eaten poppy seeds for the first time that day at 12 - and never before - it was conclusive proof that said digestion hated those darn poppy seeds!







Clair


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## Clair (Sep 16, 2000)

K,I've also had an experience where food I have eaten has gone in my mouth and out my butt within an hour.I ate some cheese pastry straws with poppy seeds for the first time ever one saturday lunchtime at 12 o clock - at 1 o clock (yes 1 hour later) I had severe D cramps - and out came mush with yes..you guessed it those darn poppy seeds.Since I had only eaten poppy seeds for the first time that day at 12 - and never before - it was conclusive proof that said digestion hated those darn poppy seeds!







Clair


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## jo-jo (Aug 19, 2001)

Thanks flux and kmottus for the info it's good to look at other views but there is not enouph medidal journals that you can whip up that can convince me that lactose just does not agree with me. I definately know my own body better than you in what it can and can't take. If I would tell you that I had to go for a **** would you whip-out your medical journals,studies, to try to prove me otherwise?


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## jo-jo (Aug 19, 2001)

Thanks flux and kmottus for the info it's good to look at other views but there is not enouph medidal journals that you can whip up that can convince me that lactose just does not agree with me. I definately know my own body better than you in what it can and can't take. If I would tell you that I had to go for a **** would you whip-out your medical journals,studies, to try to prove me otherwise?


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## jo-jo (Aug 19, 2001)

Sorry, I guess I used the wrong language. The stars above means urinate. I did not mean to affend anyone, did not know it was a "bad word". oops!


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## jo-jo (Aug 19, 2001)

Sorry, I guess I used the wrong language. The stars above means urinate. I did not mean to affend anyone, did not know it was a "bad word". oops!


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Yes, you know your body, And, human beings as a group for the most part very very often make incorrect assumptions about their body. life, the universe and everything.We have a sort of a short-cut that we use that works most of the time. It isn't always logical, and quite often it is right. But sometimes it is wrong and people will stick to it regardless of any data to the contrary. People will swear up and down penicillin cured their cold when there is NO way it had ANY effect on the cold virus, for example.Some people (not nearly as many people who think they do) have real, reproducible problems with lactose. And alot of people un-nessisarily avoid things because of erroneous conclusions.What some people claim happen to them with lactose is quite inexplicable. It generally violates at least one if not more natural laws. In those cases, it is hard to believe that they have biological processes going on in their body that has never been discovered. Could happen, just is rather improbable.Often there is another logical explination that the person generally hates.(For example that pills have lots of food colorings and other additives in them that are way way more likely to be the cuprit than the opinion that "all pills with lactose make me violently ill." These colors can demonstrably make people ill at the doses present in pills but because they also contain lactose at doses unlikely by any imagined mechanism to make them sick it HAS to be the lactose)SOMETHING is causing your symptoms. I NEVER EVER TOLD you that YOU DON'T HAVE SYMPTOMS. NO MEDICAL JOURNAL SAYS YOU DON'T HAVE SYMPTOMS.But some things are so biologically implausible that SOME OTHER reason for the symptoms likely exists.In everyone studied so far the amount of lactose that causes symptoms is in the more than a small glass of milk range. That the laws of chemistry say that the amount of gas the bacteria make in your colon is completely dependant on the amount of lactose you put in and 1-2 cc of gas (for example) is highly unlikely to be A)Noticably differnt than usual or







the source of severe symptoms.Some people have symptoms SOLELY because the brain (using the short cuts previously mentioned) decides that X is BAD and everytime you eat X the BRAIN, not the X, causes symptoms is well known. I've experienced it myself. Raisins make me quite ill. THERE IS NO REASON FOR THIS, It is COMPLETELY reproducible. And I believe it is just happened so many time it may take FOREVER for my brain to uncouple Raisin from THE WORST poison ANYONE could ever eat (Grapes are OK, EVERY OTHER dried fruit is OK...raisins...Just hand me the bucket when you hand me the box).K.PS Yep, once in a great while some foods may come out of your body in short order. If this happened with EVERY meal like some people claim happens to them, you would have to be on a feeding tube as you would be very ill.When you have certain types of reactions to food things may exit quickly (but everything in the way has to be dumped first) I've had this happen, when I've been quite sick.------------------I am a scientific researcher primarily in the area of the environment and the impact of environmental factors on human health, I have no ties to the pharmaceutical industry. I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial, natural, or any other product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html[This message has been edited by kmottus (edited 08-30-2001).]


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Yes, you know your body, And, human beings as a group for the most part very very often make incorrect assumptions about their body. life, the universe and everything.We have a sort of a short-cut that we use that works most of the time. It isn't always logical, and quite often it is right. But sometimes it is wrong and people will stick to it regardless of any data to the contrary. People will swear up and down penicillin cured their cold when there is NO way it had ANY effect on the cold virus, for example.Some people (not nearly as many people who think they do) have real, reproducible problems with lactose. And alot of people un-nessisarily avoid things because of erroneous conclusions.What some people claim happen to them with lactose is quite inexplicable. It generally violates at least one if not more natural laws. In those cases, it is hard to believe that they have biological processes going on in their body that has never been discovered. Could happen, just is rather improbable.Often there is another logical explination that the person generally hates.(For example that pills have lots of food colorings and other additives in them that are way way more likely to be the cuprit than the opinion that "all pills with lactose make me violently ill." These colors can demonstrably make people ill at the doses present in pills but because they also contain lactose at doses unlikely by any imagined mechanism to make them sick it HAS to be the lactose)SOMETHING is causing your symptoms. I NEVER EVER TOLD you that YOU DON'T HAVE SYMPTOMS. NO MEDICAL JOURNAL SAYS YOU DON'T HAVE SYMPTOMS.But some things are so biologically implausible that SOME OTHER reason for the symptoms likely exists.In everyone studied so far the amount of lactose that causes symptoms is in the more than a small glass of milk range. That the laws of chemistry say that the amount of gas the bacteria make in your colon is completely dependant on the amount of lactose you put in and 1-2 cc of gas (for example) is highly unlikely to be A)Noticably differnt than usual or







the source of severe symptoms.Some people have symptoms SOLELY because the brain (using the short cuts previously mentioned) decides that X is BAD and everytime you eat X the BRAIN, not the X, causes symptoms is well known. I've experienced it myself. Raisins make me quite ill. THERE IS NO REASON FOR THIS, It is COMPLETELY reproducible. And I believe it is just happened so many time it may take FOREVER for my brain to uncouple Raisin from THE WORST poison ANYONE could ever eat (Grapes are OK, EVERY OTHER dried fruit is OK...raisins...Just hand me the bucket when you hand me the box).K.PS Yep, once in a great while some foods may come out of your body in short order. If this happened with EVERY meal like some people claim happens to them, you would have to be on a feeding tube as you would be very ill.When you have certain types of reactions to food things may exit quickly (but everything in the way has to be dumped first) I've had this happen, when I've been quite sick.------------------I am a scientific researcher primarily in the area of the environment and the impact of environmental factors on human health, I have no ties to the pharmaceutical industry. I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial, natural, or any other product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html[This message has been edited by kmottus (edited 08-30-2001).]


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2001)

Flux asked:Who says human babies do poorly? And who says it's only for the young?Sorry, flux, but it's pretty common knowledge that human infants just do no thrive on a diet of cow's milk. It's not necessarily lactose intolerance. Cow's milk just does not provide the proper nutrients for human babies. The proliferation of "infant formula" products should give an indication of this fact. They're not all formulated with a soy (or whatever non-dairy) extract. They do have the added nutrients that a human baby needs to thrive. It would take some research (which I'm not interested in doing) to find out which these are, but I think it's a deficiency in sugars. The home-made formula using Karo syrup should provide some clues.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2001)

Flux asked:Who says human babies do poorly? And who says it's only for the young?Sorry, flux, but it's pretty common knowledge that human infants just do no thrive on a diet of cow's milk. It's not necessarily lactose intolerance. Cow's milk just does not provide the proper nutrients for human babies. The proliferation of "infant formula" products should give an indication of this fact. They're not all formulated with a soy (or whatever non-dairy) extract. They do have the added nutrients that a human baby needs to thrive. It would take some research (which I'm not interested in doing) to find out which these are, but I think it's a deficiency in sugars. The home-made formula using Karo syrup should provide some clues.


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## Julia37 (May 9, 2001)

Kmottus, I appreciate your viewpoint, but I'd like every researcher and medical science professional to keep in mind that new discoveries are being made all the time. We just re-discovered the second stomach brain a few months ago. Eosinophils were confirmed as marker for allergic reactions just this year. Etc.IMHO medical science has always been held back by the delusion on the part of most doctors and researchers that they already know everything and therefore there is nothing else to discover. This has never been true and it isn't true now. It causes doctors and researchers to overlook obvious signs of new(to us) things (digestive components, processes, allergens, etc.) and dismiss symptoms of such as "psychological", "impossible", etc. when if they kept an open mind and followed up on the clues, it would lead to a new discovery.There is no doubt both from what my body tells me and what I've seen on this board that dairy causes problems for many people. Maybe it's not just the lactose, maybe there's something else in dairy that works with the lactose to cause symptoms, or maybe it's something other than lactose, or maybe it's the way the milk is processed, or... But each of us wants to be in good health, and if we find avoiding dairy relieves our symptoms for whatever reason, arguing and pulling out that tired study with a cup of lactose isn't going to change that. Maybe further and better studies should be done instead. As I've said before, my impression is that this study is not very accurate, since it produces results contrary to what our bodies tell us. I think a yet undiscovered dairy effect is causing symptoms for the people who don't show symptoms from lactose. It could be something more prevalent in soft cheeses than in milk. Mozzarella is my worst for symptoms, of what I've tried.Thanks for the suggestion that I avoid wheat, but I eat white bread and pasta every day. I have to have it, if I go too long without pasta I get weak! I don't get symptoms from them, instead they both soothe my symptoms, depending of course on what I put on them.







The only thing I've ever gotten that cramp->BM effect from is dairy. Yes, I'm sure.


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## Julia37 (May 9, 2001)

Kmottus, I appreciate your viewpoint, but I'd like every researcher and medical science professional to keep in mind that new discoveries are being made all the time. We just re-discovered the second stomach brain a few months ago. Eosinophils were confirmed as marker for allergic reactions just this year. Etc.IMHO medical science has always been held back by the delusion on the part of most doctors and researchers that they already know everything and therefore there is nothing else to discover. This has never been true and it isn't true now. It causes doctors and researchers to overlook obvious signs of new(to us) things (digestive components, processes, allergens, etc.) and dismiss symptoms of such as "psychological", "impossible", etc. when if they kept an open mind and followed up on the clues, it would lead to a new discovery.There is no doubt both from what my body tells me and what I've seen on this board that dairy causes problems for many people. Maybe it's not just the lactose, maybe there's something else in dairy that works with the lactose to cause symptoms, or maybe it's something other than lactose, or maybe it's the way the milk is processed, or... But each of us wants to be in good health, and if we find avoiding dairy relieves our symptoms for whatever reason, arguing and pulling out that tired study with a cup of lactose isn't going to change that. Maybe further and better studies should be done instead. As I've said before, my impression is that this study is not very accurate, since it produces results contrary to what our bodies tell us. I think a yet undiscovered dairy effect is causing symptoms for the people who don't show symptoms from lactose. It could be something more prevalent in soft cheeses than in milk. Mozzarella is my worst for symptoms, of what I've tried.Thanks for the suggestion that I avoid wheat, but I eat white bread and pasta every day. I have to have it, if I go too long without pasta I get weak! I don't get symptoms from them, instead they both soothe my symptoms, depending of course on what I put on them.







The only thing I've ever gotten that cramp->BM effect from is dairy. Yes, I'm sure.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:It would take some research (which I'm not interested in doing) to find out which these are, but I think it's a deficiency in sugars


It's your statment, so it's up to you to provide the details. Milk has sugar: it's called lactose!


> quote:Eosinophils were confirmed as marker for allergic reactions just this year


Huh?


> quote:IMHO medical science has always been held back by the delusion on the part of most doctors and researchers that they already know everything and therefore there is nothing else to discover


This is an absurd statement. Basic medical science is largely driven by the desire to discover new things.


> quote:There is no doubt both from what my body tells me and what I've seen on this board that dairy causes problems for many people


There is little doubt that you have *misinterpeted* what your body tells you. The same applies to a large degree to many of the anecdotes posted here.


> quote:my impression is that this study is not very accurate, since it produces results contrary to what our bodies tell us


You have *begged the question* because the study's conclusion is that your what your body is telling you is not accurate. So you have essentially stated it is wrong just because it is wrong. ------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:It would take some research (which I'm not interested in doing) to find out which these are, but I think it's a deficiency in sugars


It's your statment, so it's up to you to provide the details. Milk has sugar: it's called lactose!


> quote:Eosinophils were confirmed as marker for allergic reactions just this year


Huh?


> quote:IMHO medical science has always been held back by the delusion on the part of most doctors and researchers that they already know everything and therefore there is nothing else to discover


This is an absurd statement. Basic medical science is largely driven by the desire to discover new things.


> quote:There is no doubt both from what my body tells me and what I've seen on this board that dairy causes problems for many people


There is little doubt that you have *misinterpeted* what your body tells you. The same applies to a large degree to many of the anecdotes posted here.


> quote:my impression is that this study is not very accurate, since it produces results contrary to what our bodies tell us


You have *begged the question* because the study's conclusion is that your what your body is telling you is not accurate. So you have essentially stated it is wrong just because it is wrong. ------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2001)

The following was culled from a quick search on feeding infant humans with cows milk. I did not read many of the pages, but did not see any that recommended feeding an infant human on cows milk. The common refrain was don't. Maybe they're all fringe sites run by tree-hugging lunatics. Somehow I doubt it.I admit that my guess of sugar content was way off the mark. *shrug*You might want to look up the term "wetnurse". Sorry, but I'm not gonna do this one for you. If you don't care, fine. But, knowing what one is, and what a nuisance it is for all involved, I can't imagine wetnurses ever coming into existance if cow's milk was a perfectly good substitute for human milk. IOW, infants were probably getting very sick or dying, and some bright guy or gal figured out that it was the ones that weren't getting human breast milk that were affected the most.This one pretty much says it all: http://www.pcrm.org/health/Info_on_Veg_Diets/dairy.html The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that infants below one year of age not be given whole cowï¿½s milk, as iron deficiency is more likely on a dairy-rich diet. Cowï¿½s milk products are very low in iron. If they become a major part of oneï¿½s diet, iron deficiency is more likely.10 Colic is an additional concern with milk consumption. One out of every five babies suffers from colic. Pediatricians learned long ago that cowsï¿½ milk was often the reason. We now know that breastfeeding mothers can have colicky babies if the mothers are consuming cowï¿½s milk. The cowsï¿½ antibodies can pass through the motherï¿½s bloodstream into her breast milk and to the baby.22 Additionally, food allergies appear to be common results of milk consumption, particularly in children. A recent study23 also linked cowï¿½s milk consumption to chronic constipation in children. Researchers suggest that milk consumption resulted in perianal sores and severe pain on defecation, leading to constipation. http://www.saanendoah.com/compare.html: Note that most of the minerals in goat and cow milk are significantly higher than in human milk. This, coupled with the higher protein of cow and goat milks(more than 3% compared to about 1.3%), make dilution necessary so as to avoid hypertonic dehydration (a result of high solutes in urine). But, after dilution, carbohydrate should be added to cow or goat milk because human milk contains 7.0 g/100g lactose compared to about 4.5 g/100g lactose found in cow and goat milks. Lots of good (bad) info on this page, but I find it somewhat suspect since it's from a chiropractic alliance: http://www.worldchiropracticalliance.org/t...2001twarner.htm Cow's milk was designed to bring a calf to a 2,000 pound cow in one year's time. It was not meant for human infants. No animals, except for humans, consume milk after being weaned. Sometime between one-and-a-half and four years of age, we gradually lose lactose activity in our small intestines. Many infants drink between one and two quarts of milk on a daily basis. Although this acts to satisfy their hunger, they are often left with little room for vital iron-containing foods. Cow's milk can produce iron deficiency by providing little dietary iron itself, and at the same time producing iron loss by inducing gastrointestinal bleeding. Iron deficiency anemia makes children act inattentive, apathetic, and irritable. They will cry a great deal encouraging mother to do what she knows best: provide a soothing bottle of milk -- which only compounds the problem.From another maybe questionable site: http://www.earthsave.org/news/whatdary.htm Such findings prompted breast surgeon Robert Kradjian, MD, in 1993 to review more than 500 medical articles written about milk since 1988. "How would I summarize the articles?," Kradian asks. "First of all, none of the authors spoke of cow's milk as an excellent food, free of side effects. The main focus of the published reports seem to be on intestinal colic, intestinal irritation, intestinal bleeding, and anemia, allergic reactions in infants and children as well as infections such as salmonella... In adults the problems seemed centered more around heart disease and arthritis, allergy, sinusitis, and the more serious questions of leukemia, lymphoma and cancer."Possibly a more reputable site: http://www.danone-institute.be/communication/schaafsma.html Chapter 3 deals with recent developments in infant nutrition and with the remarkable progress that has been made in the industrial production of infant formula's on cow's milk basis. These formula's now closely mimic the composition of humanmilk. Attention is given to nutrient requirements of infants at different ages and to the differences in composition between cow's milk and human milk. In view for the requirements for long chain poly unsaturated fatty acids (LCPUFA) an overview is given of the metabolism of fatty acids.I could literally swamp this site with similar, but I think, even you, get my point.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2001)

The following was culled from a quick search on feeding infant humans with cows milk. I did not read many of the pages, but did not see any that recommended feeding an infant human on cows milk. The common refrain was don't. Maybe they're all fringe sites run by tree-hugging lunatics. Somehow I doubt it.I admit that my guess of sugar content was way off the mark. *shrug*You might want to look up the term "wetnurse". Sorry, but I'm not gonna do this one for you. If you don't care, fine. But, knowing what one is, and what a nuisance it is for all involved, I can't imagine wetnurses ever coming into existance if cow's milk was a perfectly good substitute for human milk. IOW, infants were probably getting very sick or dying, and some bright guy or gal figured out that it was the ones that weren't getting human breast milk that were affected the most.This one pretty much says it all: http://www.pcrm.org/health/Info_on_Veg_Diets/dairy.html The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that infants below one year of age not be given whole cowï¿½s milk, as iron deficiency is more likely on a dairy-rich diet. Cowï¿½s milk products are very low in iron. If they become a major part of oneï¿½s diet, iron deficiency is more likely.10 Colic is an additional concern with milk consumption. One out of every five babies suffers from colic. Pediatricians learned long ago that cowsï¿½ milk was often the reason. We now know that breastfeeding mothers can have colicky babies if the mothers are consuming cowï¿½s milk. The cowsï¿½ antibodies can pass through the motherï¿½s bloodstream into her breast milk and to the baby.22 Additionally, food allergies appear to be common results of milk consumption, particularly in children. A recent study23 also linked cowï¿½s milk consumption to chronic constipation in children. Researchers suggest that milk consumption resulted in perianal sores and severe pain on defecation, leading to constipation. http://www.saanendoah.com/compare.html: Note that most of the minerals in goat and cow milk are significantly higher than in human milk. This, coupled with the higher protein of cow and goat milks(more than 3% compared to about 1.3%), make dilution necessary so as to avoid hypertonic dehydration (a result of high solutes in urine). But, after dilution, carbohydrate should be added to cow or goat milk because human milk contains 7.0 g/100g lactose compared to about 4.5 g/100g lactose found in cow and goat milks. Lots of good (bad) info on this page, but I find it somewhat suspect since it's from a chiropractic alliance: http://www.worldchiropracticalliance.org/t...2001twarner.htm Cow's milk was designed to bring a calf to a 2,000 pound cow in one year's time. It was not meant for human infants. No animals, except for humans, consume milk after being weaned. Sometime between one-and-a-half and four years of age, we gradually lose lactose activity in our small intestines. Many infants drink between one and two quarts of milk on a daily basis. Although this acts to satisfy their hunger, they are often left with little room for vital iron-containing foods. Cow's milk can produce iron deficiency by providing little dietary iron itself, and at the same time producing iron loss by inducing gastrointestinal bleeding. Iron deficiency anemia makes children act inattentive, apathetic, and irritable. They will cry a great deal encouraging mother to do what she knows best: provide a soothing bottle of milk -- which only compounds the problem.From another maybe questionable site: http://www.earthsave.org/news/whatdary.htm Such findings prompted breast surgeon Robert Kradjian, MD, in 1993 to review more than 500 medical articles written about milk since 1988. "How would I summarize the articles?," Kradian asks. "First of all, none of the authors spoke of cow's milk as an excellent food, free of side effects. The main focus of the published reports seem to be on intestinal colic, intestinal irritation, intestinal bleeding, and anemia, allergic reactions in infants and children as well as infections such as salmonella... In adults the problems seemed centered more around heart disease and arthritis, allergy, sinusitis, and the more serious questions of leukemia, lymphoma and cancer."Possibly a more reputable site: http://www.danone-institute.be/communication/schaafsma.html Chapter 3 deals with recent developments in infant nutrition and with the remarkable progress that has been made in the industrial production of infant formula's on cow's milk basis. These formula's now closely mimic the composition of humanmilk. Attention is given to nutrient requirements of infants at different ages and to the differences in composition between cow's milk and human milk. In view for the requirements for long chain poly unsaturated fatty acids (LCPUFA) an overview is given of the metabolism of fatty acids.I could literally swamp this site with similar, but I think, even you, get my point.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:I could literally swamp this site with similar, but I think, even you, get my point.


Hmm, you don't like milk.------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:I could literally swamp this site with similar, but I think, even you, get my point.


Hmm, you don't like milk.------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

I thought the Enteric Nervous System (aka the Second Brain--which was "coined" in the 1999 book by that name) has been known for decades.The physiology text I used in 1984 has a very good description of it.We still don't know everything about it, but that it exists at all is not a recent suprise.K.------------------I am a scientific researcher primarily in the area of the environment and the impact of environmental factors on human health, I have no ties to the pharmaceutical industry. I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial, natural, or any other product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

I thought the Enteric Nervous System (aka the Second Brain--which was "coined" in the 1999 book by that name) has been known for decades.The physiology text I used in 1984 has a very good description of it.We still don't know everything about it, but that it exists at all is not a recent suprise.K.------------------I am a scientific researcher primarily in the area of the environment and the impact of environmental factors on human health, I have no ties to the pharmaceutical industry. I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial, natural, or any other product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

AND ONE MORE TIME FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T HEARD ME YET (and I think flux agrees but he will have to chime in on his own)*SOME PEOPLE DO HAVE LACTOSE INTOLERANCE THAT CAUSES SYMPTOMS*HOWEVER:Many people who BLAME lactose for their symptoms may be in error. Kinda like many people BLAME going out of the house with wet hair for giving them their cold.JUST BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE ARE IN ERROR *DOES NOT* MEAN THAT NO PERSON ON THE PLANET HAS LACTOSE ASSOCIATED SYMPTOMS AND I KNOW OF * NO RESEARCHER OR SCIENTIST THAT SAYS THAT*PLEASE stop insisting that I and others are telling you it is IMPOSSIBLE to have symptoms from lactoselThank you for your attention.On another note.The LACTOSE content of COW's Milk isn't what makes Cow's milk bad for babies. (I'm not sure why Cow's milk is bad for babies is related to Lactose intolerance problems. I think MOST if not ALL mammals put lactose in the milk)Per volume HUMAN milk has more.Component.........Human Milk.........Bovine Milk Lactose.............7.3 g/dl........4.0 g/dl EVERY single mammal has Milk that is most suited for it's own young, but hte LACTOSE content of Cow's milk is NOT what makes it bad for babies.K.------------------I am a scientific researcher primarily in the area of the environment and the impact of environmental factors on human health, I have no ties to the pharmaceutical industry. I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial, natural, or any other product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html[This message has been edited by kmottus (edited 08-31-2001).][This message has been edited by kmottus (edited 08-31-2001).]


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

AND ONE MORE TIME FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T HEARD ME YET (and I think flux agrees but he will have to chime in on his own)*SOME PEOPLE DO HAVE LACTOSE INTOLERANCE THAT CAUSES SYMPTOMS*HOWEVER:Many people who BLAME lactose for their symptoms may be in error. Kinda like many people BLAME going out of the house with wet hair for giving them their cold.JUST BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE ARE IN ERROR *DOES NOT* MEAN THAT NO PERSON ON THE PLANET HAS LACTOSE ASSOCIATED SYMPTOMS AND I KNOW OF * NO RESEARCHER OR SCIENTIST THAT SAYS THAT*PLEASE stop insisting that I and others are telling you it is IMPOSSIBLE to have symptoms from lactoselThank you for your attention.On another note.The LACTOSE content of COW's Milk isn't what makes Cow's milk bad for babies. (I'm not sure why Cow's milk is bad for babies is related to Lactose intolerance problems. I think MOST if not ALL mammals put lactose in the milk)Per volume HUMAN milk has more.Component.........Human Milk.........Bovine Milk Lactose.............7.3 g/dl........4.0 g/dl EVERY single mammal has Milk that is most suited for it's own young, but hte LACTOSE content of Cow's milk is NOT what makes it bad for babies.K.------------------I am a scientific researcher primarily in the area of the environment and the impact of environmental factors on human health, I have no ties to the pharmaceutical industry. I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial, natural, or any other product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html[This message has been edited by kmottus (edited 08-31-2001).][This message has been edited by kmottus (edited 08-31-2001).]


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2001)

Kmottus, I was responding to a quote by flux on page one. I suppose I should have changed the subject from Lactose Intolerance, but this seemed like the place to put it. If you read what I posted (some of which has research references on the original sites) you can't help but notice the recurring theme of constipation in relation to cow's milk. Lactose Intolerance, or not, it would seem to be important to a group of people who suffer from constipation.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2001)

Kmottus, I was responding to a quote by flux on page one. I suppose I should have changed the subject from Lactose Intolerance, but this seemed like the place to put it. If you read what I posted (some of which has research references on the original sites) you can't help but notice the recurring theme of constipation in relation to cow's milk. Lactose Intolerance, or not, it would seem to be important to a group of people who suffer from constipation.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:SOME PEOPLE DO HAVE LACTOSE INTOLERANCE THAT CAUSES SYMPTOMS


Agreed. There are two things, dose and a person's experience. When one is tested for LI, they are given at least *25 grams* of the stuff on an empty stomach. That's like drinking a quart of milk in 5 minutes. If you are LI, you will know it then.Second, most people who have been tested are American-born adults living in Minneapolis. No one has tested Asians in this systematic fashion. Since they don't grow up on a milk-including diet, they may indeed be more sensitive to relatively small doses of lactose.------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:SOME PEOPLE DO HAVE LACTOSE INTOLERANCE THAT CAUSES SYMPTOMS


Agreed. There are two things, dose and a person's experience. When one is tested for LI, they are given at least *25 grams* of the stuff on an empty stomach. That's like drinking a quart of milk in 5 minutes. If you are LI, you will know it then.Second, most people who have been tested are American-born adults living in Minneapolis. No one has tested Asians in this systematic fashion. Since they don't grow up on a milk-including diet, they may indeed be more sensitive to relatively small doses of lactose.------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.


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## Clair (Sep 16, 2000)

Kmottus / FluxOK, let me get one thing straight here....having problems consuming diary products does not necessarily mean you have lactose intolerance right?I for one have a tendency towards diarrhea and cramps if I consume milk, yoghurt, soft cheese etc....but I never assumed it was lactose intolerance...and none of my specialists have ever hinted towards that.Sorry if I'm appearing ignorant, I just wanted to clear that up.I can't say I have ever been asked to consume milk in a lab test - should this be something I should be doing?Clair


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## Clair (Sep 16, 2000)

Kmottus / FluxOK, let me get one thing straight here....having problems consuming diary products does not necessarily mean you have lactose intolerance right?I for one have a tendency towards diarrhea and cramps if I consume milk, yoghurt, soft cheese etc....but I never assumed it was lactose intolerance...and none of my specialists have ever hinted towards that.Sorry if I'm appearing ignorant, I just wanted to clear that up.I can't say I have ever been asked to consume milk in a lab test - should this be something I should be doing?Clair


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## Mike NoLomotil (Jun 6, 2000)

Boy, just pop in between meetings and here we are again:







MILK WARS







Fun thread. Summary comments offhand from what I have learned from doctors who do this for a living (food allergies and intolerances).FLUX's source, Suarez, is basically the Guru Of Gas and Lactose when it comes to actually doing controlled experimentation then publishing it. There are precious few others who have set forth their investigations...much is observation. But a few things here that can be summarized are that, in general as I recall from Suarez experiments, I think his data sort of arrived at the generalization that the majority of persons with primary lactase deficiency can tolerate up to about 250 ml per day of whole cows' milk in split doses with minimal symptoms. Sometimes this can become dogma. Its a finding based on the patient selection and methods used, but it is a valid finding as I recall.Some people seem to tolerate far less, and this is often (not always) due to an intolerance to one of the other milk fractions up to and inclduing mama cows' personal immunoglobulin assortment she passed-on in her milk to baby cow for temporary immunity. These vary from region to region thus from milk collected in Jersey vs. milk collected in Florida. Milk serves as a nutrient and as a temporary supplement to the species-specific immune system while it "learns" to differentiate pathogens from foods and such, and develops certain protective functions absent at birth. So some human immune systems do not like some specific cow immunoglobulin(s). These also contaminate the cheese as well and can be the cause of "cheese sensitivity" separate and apart from any sensitivity to the casein or small amounts of milk-protein "contaminants.So some people, who are actually not reacting to even the base milk fractions described accurately by FLUX and Special-K but other immunoglobulins, can be observed to be more reactive to different milk sources. Another thing I learned is that sometimes lactase-deficient patients are misled into believeing that are Not lactose intolerant by poor instructions in how to use lactaid supplementation.Doses on packages can be listed in mg or lactase Units. 15 units = 1 mg of lactase. Some pills have as little as 25 mg in a pill a and a severe primary lactase deficient patient who ingests a lot of lactose in a short time (naughty naughty did not split your doses!) might need, say 2000-3000 lactase units to offset the ingested amount. When they don't take the large number of pills needed and they get sick they are told "see, you fool, you don't have lactose intolerance" when in fact they did but did not take enough lactaid.If possible its better to use the liquid, you cow milk lovers who beleive lactase is a problem. The "dosing" is easier to figure out (how many drops to put in how much milk how many hours ahead)or just buy that white water in a milk carton with no lactose in it







.If you beleive you have LI, you have to experiment with the dosing and it is often much more than many patients might think they need to be effective.It is indeed sadly true too that we find that people frequently misidentify the offending foods, or even completly disregard the additives and chemicals. Due to nature of the various intolerance mechanisms that may be involved in any food intolerance including milk, and that most people are taught to observe for food intolrance based on rules used for food ALLERGY, the accurate identification of the actual provoking substance is very very difficult.It is also true that the persons on the thread who swear a tiny dairy dose sets them off I am sure can be very correct. However, this is more often an as-yet unidentified "immunologic" response to one of the other milk fractions, especially suspicious would be an actual allergy (IgE). This can be tested easily by using oral challenge...but it is hard to set forth a mixed-intake oral challenge as proof of intolerance to any one subtsance IN the mixed intake....its not as easy as picking our own baby out the filled nursery after delivery.You have to do single-food challenge to be sure...and to isolate the role of lactose is simple:1. lactose-free milk oral challengethen2. whole milk oral challenge If the whole milk produces symptoms and the lactose-free milk does not this equals highly probable LI. Be sure to drink freely like Suarez, the Guru of Gas, says to so as to be sure to have a chance to provoke symptoms. If they both produce symptoms then you need to think about all the other milk fractions. At this point life-with-dairy-products will start to get complicated....but thats a whole book.Eat well. Think Well. Be Well. MNL_______________wwwleapallergy.comPS:I don't like milk either







[This message has been edited by Mike NoLomotil (edited 08-31-2001).]


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## Mike NoLomotil (Jun 6, 2000)

Boy, just pop in between meetings and here we are again:







MILK WARS







Fun thread. Summary comments offhand from what I have learned from doctors who do this for a living (food allergies and intolerances).FLUX's source, Suarez, is basically the Guru Of Gas and Lactose when it comes to actually doing controlled experimentation then publishing it. There are precious few others who have set forth their investigations...much is observation. But a few things here that can be summarized are that, in general as I recall from Suarez experiments, I think his data sort of arrived at the generalization that the majority of persons with primary lactase deficiency can tolerate up to about 250 ml per day of whole cows' milk in split doses with minimal symptoms. Sometimes this can become dogma. Its a finding based on the patient selection and methods used, but it is a valid finding as I recall.Some people seem to tolerate far less, and this is often (not always) due to an intolerance to one of the other milk fractions up to and inclduing mama cows' personal immunoglobulin assortment she passed-on in her milk to baby cow for temporary immunity. These vary from region to region thus from milk collected in Jersey vs. milk collected in Florida. Milk serves as a nutrient and as a temporary supplement to the species-specific immune system while it "learns" to differentiate pathogens from foods and such, and develops certain protective functions absent at birth. So some human immune systems do not like some specific cow immunoglobulin(s). These also contaminate the cheese as well and can be the cause of "cheese sensitivity" separate and apart from any sensitivity to the casein or small amounts of milk-protein "contaminants.So some people, who are actually not reacting to even the base milk fractions described accurately by FLUX and Special-K but other immunoglobulins, can be observed to be more reactive to different milk sources. Another thing I learned is that sometimes lactase-deficient patients are misled into believeing that are Not lactose intolerant by poor instructions in how to use lactaid supplementation.Doses on packages can be listed in mg or lactase Units. 15 units = 1 mg of lactase. Some pills have as little as 25 mg in a pill a and a severe primary lactase deficient patient who ingests a lot of lactose in a short time (naughty naughty did not split your doses!) might need, say 2000-3000 lactase units to offset the ingested amount. When they don't take the large number of pills needed and they get sick they are told "see, you fool, you don't have lactose intolerance" when in fact they did but did not take enough lactaid.If possible its better to use the liquid, you cow milk lovers who beleive lactase is a problem. The "dosing" is easier to figure out (how many drops to put in how much milk how many hours ahead)or just buy that white water in a milk carton with no lactose in it







.If you beleive you have LI, you have to experiment with the dosing and it is often much more than many patients might think they need to be effective.It is indeed sadly true too that we find that people frequently misidentify the offending foods, or even completly disregard the additives and chemicals. Due to nature of the various intolerance mechanisms that may be involved in any food intolerance including milk, and that most people are taught to observe for food intolrance based on rules used for food ALLERGY, the accurate identification of the actual provoking substance is very very difficult.It is also true that the persons on the thread who swear a tiny dairy dose sets them off I am sure can be very correct. However, this is more often an as-yet unidentified "immunologic" response to one of the other milk fractions, especially suspicious would be an actual allergy (IgE). This can be tested easily by using oral challenge...but it is hard to set forth a mixed-intake oral challenge as proof of intolerance to any one subtsance IN the mixed intake....its not as easy as picking our own baby out the filled nursery after delivery.You have to do single-food challenge to be sure...and to isolate the role of lactose is simple:1. lactose-free milk oral challengethen2. whole milk oral challenge If the whole milk produces symptoms and the lactose-free milk does not this equals highly probable LI. Be sure to drink freely like Suarez, the Guru of Gas, says to so as to be sure to have a chance to provoke symptoms. If they both produce symptoms then you need to think about all the other milk fractions. At this point life-with-dairy-products will start to get complicated....but thats a whole book.Eat well. Think Well. Be Well. MNL_______________wwwleapallergy.comPS:I don't like milk either







[This message has been edited by Mike NoLomotil (edited 08-31-2001).]


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## JennT (Jul 17, 2000)

Hmm! This may explain it, I guess. I'm allergic to casein and whey, and maybe the allergic responses to those, while not gastrointestinal, could make me more sensitive to the GI symptoms too?Hmm...------------------*JennT*


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## JennT (Jul 17, 2000)

Hmm! This may explain it, I guess. I'm allergic to casein and whey, and maybe the allergic responses to those, while not gastrointestinal, could make me more sensitive to the GI symptoms too?Hmm...------------------*JennT*


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## Mike NoLomotil (Jun 6, 2000)

Jenn....I am inferring that your allergy symptoms are upper respiratory or dermatologic or something? If you have been test-positive for allergy, its likely that the mast cells in your gut will degranulate too when the allergen is introduced. Due to the complex interractions between "protective" antibodies like IgA types and the "inflammatory" antibody classes, and the various types of "immune cells", and how the bowels immune system is constructed to work in conjunction with digestive function, you may not get as severe a reaction in one part of the body as another...and that includes the reactions in the gut. And the opposite can be true. BUT if you get belly trouble pretty quickly after ingesting even a small amount of dairy products with casein and/or whey, then this is highly suggestive of gut mucosal involvement too.So you are absolutely up the right tree, just maybe straddling a different limb than you thought.







Anyway if you are allerguc then you don't have many options.......avoid or attenuate. You may wish to do a trial with IBSACOL. I can say I have observed clinical symptom reduction in patients with known allergy just just non-IgE intolerances too. It might be worth a try. Go on it a month and stay away from your allergens during that time. After one month on it try an oral challenge and see what happens. I will bet the odds are you will experience an improvement in your tolerance. I am not guaranteeing but I am suggesting I would not be surprised. And if you like dairy and hate avoiding it and are certain you are allergic as you say this may be helpful Does not cost that much to find out.Eat well. Think well. Be well.MNL_____________ www.leapallergy.com PS:







I receive no commission for recommending IBSACOL. Hey Dianne how about it?


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## Mike NoLomotil (Jun 6, 2000)

Jenn....I am inferring that your allergy symptoms are upper respiratory or dermatologic or something? If you have been test-positive for allergy, its likely that the mast cells in your gut will degranulate too when the allergen is introduced. Due to the complex interractions between "protective" antibodies like IgA types and the "inflammatory" antibody classes, and the various types of "immune cells", and how the bowels immune system is constructed to work in conjunction with digestive function, you may not get as severe a reaction in one part of the body as another...and that includes the reactions in the gut. And the opposite can be true. BUT if you get belly trouble pretty quickly after ingesting even a small amount of dairy products with casein and/or whey, then this is highly suggestive of gut mucosal involvement too.So you are absolutely up the right tree, just maybe straddling a different limb than you thought.







Anyway if you are allerguc then you don't have many options.......avoid or attenuate. You may wish to do a trial with IBSACOL. I can say I have observed clinical symptom reduction in patients with known allergy just just non-IgE intolerances too. It might be worth a try. Go on it a month and stay away from your allergens during that time. After one month on it try an oral challenge and see what happens. I will bet the odds are you will experience an improvement in your tolerance. I am not guaranteeing but I am suggesting I would not be surprised. And if you like dairy and hate avoiding it and are certain you are allergic as you say this may be helpful Does not cost that much to find out.Eat well. Think well. Be well.MNL_____________ www.leapallergy.com PS:







I receive no commission for recommending IBSACOL. Hey Dianne how about it?


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2001)

If there's an allergen involved, wouldn't it be a good idea to try an antihistimane? Perhaps Benedryl. Also, I would think an allergen would cause the usual histamine symptoms: stuffy nose, sneezing, etc. BTW, Very good post!


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2001)

If there's an allergen involved, wouldn't it be a good idea to try an antihistimane? Perhaps Benedryl. Also, I would think an allergen would cause the usual histamine symptoms: stuffy nose, sneezing, etc. BTW, Very good post!


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## GailSusan (Dec 23, 2000)

I think Flux has been quite respectful on this thread. No offensive graphics or demeaning comments. There's no need to accept his word as the highest authority on the matter. He's just presenting one perspective here based on his knowledge of medical research. The medical model is just one of many possible ways of viewing the world.


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## GailSusan (Dec 23, 2000)

I think Flux has been quite respectful on this thread. No offensive graphics or demeaning comments. There's no need to accept his word as the highest authority on the matter. He's just presenting one perspective here based on his knowledge of medical research. The medical model is just one of many possible ways of viewing the world.


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## norbert46 (Feb 20, 2001)

The real answer to this problem has finally been found!!














Norb http://www.neoland.com/madcow/


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## norbert46 (Feb 20, 2001)

The real answer to this problem has finally been found!!














Norb http://www.neoland.com/madcow/


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: The medical model is just one of many possible ways of viewing the world.


Actually, it is supposed to be *the* model since it's based on science and science is based on the notion that there is one true reality and that that is completely discoverable and explainable. However, science learns by making gueses, collecting information and reformulating "wrong" guesses and then re-collecting in continual repetition until the "correct" answer has been found. Consider that for all the thousands of years humanity has been around, we've only known the "true" cause of ulcers for less than a decade. We can laugh at what we once thought. So a doctor from 100 years in the future can look back on our current guesses and may laugh.------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: The medical model is just one of many possible ways of viewing the world.


Actually, it is supposed to be *the* model since it's based on science and science is based on the notion that there is one true reality and that that is completely discoverable and explainable. However, science learns by making gueses, collecting information and reformulating "wrong" guesses and then re-collecting in continual repetition until the "correct" answer has been found. Consider that for all the thousands of years humanity has been around, we've only known the "true" cause of ulcers for less than a decade. We can laugh at what we once thought. So a doctor from 100 years in the future can look back on our current guesses and may laugh.------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.


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## JennT (Jul 17, 2000)

MikeNL,You probably don't remember this, but since my insurance wouldn't pay for your testing, I went through a rigorous elimination diet with help from my GI doc, who is also a nutritionist. We determined that I am indeed allergic to casein and whey (casein more than whey), and that my responses are primarily upper respiratory, i.e. the same reactions I get from say, alder pollen, but more intense. Stuffy nose, puffy and dark under my eyes, asthma. She did not test for lactose intolerance, as it was generally agreed that I should avoid milk products entirely anyway







So, if I'm really dying for som,ething made from dairy, I take an immodium and a benadryl, and have one serving. It's only happened once when I couldn't find an acceptable substitute, and went ahead and had the slice of four-cheese pizza. I was okay in the immediate sense (thanks to immodium and benadryl), but did get an upset stomach the next day (D).Most of the time it's not worth it, so I get those no-cheese pizzas at Trader Joes, or goat cheese, or soy yogurt, or make my own soy or rice "ice cream". ------------------*JennT*


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## JennT (Jul 17, 2000)

MikeNL,You probably don't remember this, but since my insurance wouldn't pay for your testing, I went through a rigorous elimination diet with help from my GI doc, who is also a nutritionist. We determined that I am indeed allergic to casein and whey (casein more than whey), and that my responses are primarily upper respiratory, i.e. the same reactions I get from say, alder pollen, but more intense. Stuffy nose, puffy and dark under my eyes, asthma. She did not test for lactose intolerance, as it was generally agreed that I should avoid milk products entirely anyway







So, if I'm really dying for som,ething made from dairy, I take an immodium and a benadryl, and have one serving. It's only happened once when I couldn't find an acceptable substitute, and went ahead and had the slice of four-cheese pizza. I was okay in the immediate sense (thanks to immodium and benadryl), but did get an upset stomach the next day (D).Most of the time it's not worth it, so I get those no-cheese pizzas at Trader Joes, or goat cheese, or soy yogurt, or make my own soy or rice "ice cream". ------------------*JennT*


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## GailSusan (Dec 23, 2000)

Flux, Your unshakable belief in the medical model is your strength and your weakness. You believe in it strongly enough to spend enormous amounts of time reading and learning about the latest research. Which I think is a valuable addition to the BB. It's your weakness in that you believe it is the whole truth and can provide an answer to all questions. As you said yourself, the "right" that science finds today, may not be the best answer. A better one may be found tomorrow. So I don't think medical science has the right to be arrogant, better to be humble and say this is what we believe today and here's the treatment we recommend based on our current understanding. There are other models of healing, which need to be considered. In a major medical center where I attended a Board of Advisors meeting, the CEO stated the case for bringing in alternative medicine. He said there was a need to integrate traditional and alternative methods of treatment as right now people are getting treated by both, but there is no integration of the care. I can't remember the figures he cited, but I think it was something like 40% of people receive some form of treatment outside the medical model.


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## GailSusan (Dec 23, 2000)

Flux, Your unshakable belief in the medical model is your strength and your weakness. You believe in it strongly enough to spend enormous amounts of time reading and learning about the latest research. Which I think is a valuable addition to the BB. It's your weakness in that you believe it is the whole truth and can provide an answer to all questions. As you said yourself, the "right" that science finds today, may not be the best answer. A better one may be found tomorrow. So I don't think medical science has the right to be arrogant, better to be humble and say this is what we believe today and here's the treatment we recommend based on our current understanding. There are other models of healing, which need to be considered. In a major medical center where I attended a Board of Advisors meeting, the CEO stated the case for bringing in alternative medicine. He said there was a need to integrate traditional and alternative methods of treatment as right now people are getting treated by both, but there is no integration of the care. I can't remember the figures he cited, but I think it was something like 40% of people receive some form of treatment outside the medical model.


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## Julia37 (May 9, 2001)

Flux, did you know the research showing the true cause of ulcers (bacteria that can be treated with antibiotics) was dismissed by the medical establishment for 10 more years after it was available?







I read the man who discovered this kept re-infecting and curing himself, documenting it, for years, and was never taken seriously.Museum, thanks for the links. I'm intrigued by the one that mentions childhood dairy consumption being linked to food allergies and C. Since I suffer from both and my C was much worse as a child, I wonder if dairy consumption somehow caused my soy allergy? There's no footnote to that subject in the article. Mike, can you shed light on this or tell me where to get more info? Also, I've never been able to understand how a human can get enough protein without eating animals, soy, or dairy? How do vegetarians stay alive???BTW, what's the point of eating dairy when we don't have to? In addition to the symptoms already discussed it also causes increased congestion. I feel much better without it and don't crave it anymore.







Thanks everyone


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## Julia37 (May 9, 2001)

Flux, did you know the research showing the true cause of ulcers (bacteria that can be treated with antibiotics) was dismissed by the medical establishment for 10 more years after it was available?







I read the man who discovered this kept re-infecting and curing himself, documenting it, for years, and was never taken seriously.Museum, thanks for the links. I'm intrigued by the one that mentions childhood dairy consumption being linked to food allergies and C. Since I suffer from both and my C was much worse as a child, I wonder if dairy consumption somehow caused my soy allergy? There's no footnote to that subject in the article. Mike, can you shed light on this or tell me where to get more info? Also, I've never been able to understand how a human can get enough protein without eating animals, soy, or dairy? How do vegetarians stay alive???BTW, what's the point of eating dairy when we don't have to? In addition to the symptoms already discussed it also causes increased congestion. I feel much better without it and don't crave it anymore.







Thanks everyone


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:stated the case for bringing in alternative medicine


I think you are confused how medicine becomes medicine. There is really only *one* medicine. It's based on scientific discovery. When medical science makes a discovery, it is eventually incorporated into medicine. This applies to *anything* offered by "alternative medical community". If they come up with something that withstands scientific scrutiny, it will eventually become part of medicine. As it turns out, unfortunately, a lot of what's in alternative medical practice, such as homeopathy, has already been studied and found to be ineffective and eventually got dropped from clinical use. However, there maybe something to some of the herbal therapies.


> quote:was dismissed by the medical establishment for 10 more years after it was available?


Exactly. That is the way it should be. When something discovered completely turns around our thinking, it requires *extraordinary* evidence. It takes *time* for science to gather good evidence. When this happens, everyone is eventually convinced, so in the end the truth was not dismissed but embraced.------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.[This message has been edited by flux (edited 09-02-2001).]


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:stated the case for bringing in alternative medicine


I think you are confused how medicine becomes medicine. There is really only *one* medicine. It's based on scientific discovery. When medical science makes a discovery, it is eventually incorporated into medicine. This applies to *anything* offered by "alternative medical community". If they come up with something that withstands scientific scrutiny, it will eventually become part of medicine. As it turns out, unfortunately, a lot of what's in alternative medical practice, such as homeopathy, has already been studied and found to be ineffective and eventually got dropped from clinical use. However, there maybe something to some of the herbal therapies.


> quote:was dismissed by the medical establishment for 10 more years after it was available?


Exactly. That is the way it should be. When something discovered completely turns around our thinking, it requires *extraordinary* evidence. It takes *time* for science to gather good evidence. When this happens, everyone is eventually convinced, so in the end the truth was not dismissed but embraced.------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.[This message has been edited by flux (edited 09-02-2001).]


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## GailSusan (Dec 23, 2000)

Flux, I agree there is only one medical model, which is what you adhere to. What I am saying is that first of all it is not infallible and it's "truth" is always up for revision (as it should be). There is a lot of value in understanding the latest research, especially when the studies are carefully controlled. However, when 40% (or whatever the number is) of the population is using alternative treatments, it's important to not simply brush this all aside as nonsense (as many in the medical establishment do), but to investigate the efficacy using scientific methods. The scientific method is one of inquiry, whereas the medical model tends to be closed and judgmental and it's practioners are often arrogant -- acting as if they have all the answers and sometimes even presuming to know what we are experiencing.


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## GailSusan (Dec 23, 2000)

Flux, I agree there is only one medical model, which is what you adhere to. What I am saying is that first of all it is not infallible and it's "truth" is always up for revision (as it should be). There is a lot of value in understanding the latest research, especially when the studies are carefully controlled. However, when 40% (or whatever the number is) of the population is using alternative treatments, it's important to not simply brush this all aside as nonsense (as many in the medical establishment do), but to investigate the efficacy using scientific methods. The scientific method is one of inquiry, whereas the medical model tends to be closed and judgmental and it's practioners are often arrogant -- acting as if they have all the answers and sometimes even presuming to know what we are experiencing.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

I have found closed judgmental and arrogant people in all types of healing arts, not just traditional medicine. (Like the alt. med types that got busted by the FTC for saying on their web sites that you should stop taking cancer chemotherapy and just take the herbs that they recommend as that is the only way your cancer will be cured permanently)Are there some doctors who desparately need a course in "bedside manner", ABSOLUTELY.AFAIK they don't brainwash all doctors into that attitude, but there are SOME doctors who do act and feel that way.And one BIG problem with Medical Doctors is that the scientific side of their training is often quite lacking in the experminetal and investigational side of science. And a lot of them aren't interested in that, a condition that tends to be in place before they get to med school. Professors that teach too many pre-meds seem to agree that they only thing they are interested in is what do I need to know the MCAT, not how to be a good scientist.How to address that I dunno, but I have run into lots of open, accepting and humble MEDICAL doctors so I don't think things are as black and white as you seem to be argueing.Doctors AND alternative practioners should be more science oriented and cognizent of where the hole in our knowlege are (often the doctors) and what we know quite certainly (often the alternative practioners). I've seen some pretty bizarre explainations of how the body works on some alt. med. websites that have NO chance of being what is really going on.Everyone in the healing professions should be able to listen and use the psycho-social side of healing. Overall it seems the alt. med types seem to do a better job, currently than the medical doctors, in part because the alt. med don't have an HMO telling them they have to see 6-12 patients every hour, when to do a good job with people you should probably see 1-4 patients and hour, which is more typically seen in the alt. med community.You can heal most people pretty well even if the ONLY thing you are offering (And in some alt. med traditions that is probably the ONLY thing they are using that actually works as advertised) is a good psycho-social healing environment.And Medical doctors often don't do anything to treat the "worried well". People who have no illness, but don't feel good all of the time. The Alt. Med. tend to take their complaints very seriously and will do something when the doctors won't (the do no harm thing). Unfortunately the safety of a lot of alt. med. practices are not known so it is hard to be sure that they are doing no harm for those for which no treatment is needed.<end soapbox>K.------------------I am a scientific researcher primarily in the area of the environment and the impact of environmental factors on human health, I have no ties to the pharmaceutical industry. I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial, natural, or any other product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

I have found closed judgmental and arrogant people in all types of healing arts, not just traditional medicine. (Like the alt. med types that got busted by the FTC for saying on their web sites that you should stop taking cancer chemotherapy and just take the herbs that they recommend as that is the only way your cancer will be cured permanently)Are there some doctors who desparately need a course in "bedside manner", ABSOLUTELY.AFAIK they don't brainwash all doctors into that attitude, but there are SOME doctors who do act and feel that way.And one BIG problem with Medical Doctors is that the scientific side of their training is often quite lacking in the experminetal and investigational side of science. And a lot of them aren't interested in that, a condition that tends to be in place before they get to med school. Professors that teach too many pre-meds seem to agree that they only thing they are interested in is what do I need to know the MCAT, not how to be a good scientist.How to address that I dunno, but I have run into lots of open, accepting and humble MEDICAL doctors so I don't think things are as black and white as you seem to be argueing.Doctors AND alternative practioners should be more science oriented and cognizent of where the hole in our knowlege are (often the doctors) and what we know quite certainly (often the alternative practioners). I've seen some pretty bizarre explainations of how the body works on some alt. med. websites that have NO chance of being what is really going on.Everyone in the healing professions should be able to listen and use the psycho-social side of healing. Overall it seems the alt. med types seem to do a better job, currently than the medical doctors, in part because the alt. med don't have an HMO telling them they have to see 6-12 patients every hour, when to do a good job with people you should probably see 1-4 patients and hour, which is more typically seen in the alt. med community.You can heal most people pretty well even if the ONLY thing you are offering (And in some alt. med traditions that is probably the ONLY thing they are using that actually works as advertised) is a good psycho-social healing environment.And Medical doctors often don't do anything to treat the "worried well". People who have no illness, but don't feel good all of the time. The Alt. Med. tend to take their complaints very seriously and will do something when the doctors won't (the do no harm thing). Unfortunately the safety of a lot of alt. med. practices are not known so it is hard to be sure that they are doing no harm for those for which no treatment is needed.<end soapbox>K.------------------I am a scientific researcher primarily in the area of the environment and the impact of environmental factors on human health, I have no ties to the pharmaceutical industry. I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial, natural, or any other product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html


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## mkoonie (Nov 26, 2000)

I just couldn't pass this up... I, for one, would LOVE to know if Flux has IBS. Or even LI for that matter.I would venture to say that most people have had the experience of going to a doctor and being treated like a complete imbecile. You know the doctors, you tell them your symptoms and because what you describe doesn't fit the textbook definition, they tell you YOU are wrong. That somehow YOU are mistaken about "gassy", "bloated", "distention", etc. >







For me, Flux is exactly THAT person minus the benefit of being able to sever the patient/doctor relationship. He's right there telling you you don't know what the hell you're talking about when certainly HE isn't examining anyone from this board. My brother, who watched me suffer from IBS-D for years and years, is now a physician. He is an extremely bright person, but like most book smart people, he latches onto what the books says, not what the body says. We recently spoke about my diarrhea ending with the introduction of calcium tablets into my diet. My brother was certain that calcium does not function as a binder or absorber, but could not remotely explain why this one dietary change resulted in the elimination of DECADES of diarrhea and tons of pain. I was given the glucose test for LI in 1996. After consuming what seems like gallons of lactose, one's glucose level should rise as the lactase enzyme breaks the lactose into galactose and glucose. Not only did my glucose level not rise, it fell a few points. This was something that my gastro had never seen before. He felt the tests results were consistent with my severe symptoms. (Yes, you sure can run to the bathroom an hour after eating lactose-laden food!)Now here's the kicker: Reduction of milk-based food items along with Lactaid products never eliminated my symptoms. I still had diarrhea, only less frequently. Fast forward to November, 2001. Throw out the massively expensive Lactaid, throw in some calcium and I can have all the ice cream I want. Cheese no problem. Milk is the only thing I have to consume in low quantity.It just doesn't make any sense. Am I LI? I'll never know since the glucose test doesn't directly measure lactase. Does calcium work as a binder? Don't know that either. What I do know is that not a one of us, my gastro, brother and or course Mr. Flux, has all of the answers. Tests or no tests, trials or no trials. Back on the LI topic: Steve Carper has written several books on lactose intolerance. His latest book, Milk is Not for Every Body, has a section devoted to the link between ethnicity and the inability to consume milk. If you would like to check out his website, go here: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/s...per/welcome.htm Good health and firm BMs to all!


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## mkoonie (Nov 26, 2000)

I just couldn't pass this up... I, for one, would LOVE to know if Flux has IBS. Or even LI for that matter.I would venture to say that most people have had the experience of going to a doctor and being treated like a complete imbecile. You know the doctors, you tell them your symptoms and because what you describe doesn't fit the textbook definition, they tell you YOU are wrong. That somehow YOU are mistaken about "gassy", "bloated", "distention", etc. >







For me, Flux is exactly THAT person minus the benefit of being able to sever the patient/doctor relationship. He's right there telling you you don't know what the hell you're talking about when certainly HE isn't examining anyone from this board. My brother, who watched me suffer from IBS-D for years and years, is now a physician. He is an extremely bright person, but like most book smart people, he latches onto what the books says, not what the body says. We recently spoke about my diarrhea ending with the introduction of calcium tablets into my diet. My brother was certain that calcium does not function as a binder or absorber, but could not remotely explain why this one dietary change resulted in the elimination of DECADES of diarrhea and tons of pain. I was given the glucose test for LI in 1996. After consuming what seems like gallons of lactose, one's glucose level should rise as the lactase enzyme breaks the lactose into galactose and glucose. Not only did my glucose level not rise, it fell a few points. This was something that my gastro had never seen before. He felt the tests results were consistent with my severe symptoms. (Yes, you sure can run to the bathroom an hour after eating lactose-laden food!)Now here's the kicker: Reduction of milk-based food items along with Lactaid products never eliminated my symptoms. I still had diarrhea, only less frequently. Fast forward to November, 2001. Throw out the massively expensive Lactaid, throw in some calcium and I can have all the ice cream I want. Cheese no problem. Milk is the only thing I have to consume in low quantity.It just doesn't make any sense. Am I LI? I'll never know since the glucose test doesn't directly measure lactase. Does calcium work as a binder? Don't know that either. What I do know is that not a one of us, my gastro, brother and or course Mr. Flux, has all of the answers. Tests or no tests, trials or no trials. Back on the LI topic: Steve Carper has written several books on lactose intolerance. His latest book, Milk is Not for Every Body, has a section devoted to the link between ethnicity and the inability to consume milk. If you would like to check out his website, go here: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/s...per/welcome.htm Good health and firm BMs to all!


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## norbert46 (Feb 20, 2001)

Mkoonie, I'm glad you've found something to stop your "D"!! But I don't appreciate you eliminating my fall Ozark vacation by fast forwarding to November 2001 !!!














Good luck, Norb


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## norbert46 (Feb 20, 2001)

Mkoonie, I'm glad you've found something to stop your "D"!! But I don't appreciate you eliminating my fall Ozark vacation by fast forwarding to November 2001 !!!














Good luck, Norb


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:However, when 40% (or whatever the number is) of the population is using alternative treatments, it's important to not simply brush this all aside as nonsense (as many in the medical establishment do), but to investigate the efficacy using scientific methods.


But *many of these methods have been investigated and found to be ineffective.* That 40% of people are using them just means medicine is failing to educate people well about what works and what doesn't. So you have found a failiing in real medicine.


> quote:He's right there telling you you don't know what the hell you're talking about when certainly HE isn't examining anyone from this board.


I merely point out that people shouldn't be so quick to make judgements. Look at your example below..


> quote:Yes, you sure can run to the bathroom an hour after eating lactose-laden food!


Who says you cannot run to the bathroom in this fashion? Who says the food has to be laden with lactose? How much lactose constitues being "laden"?


> quote:It just doesn't make any sense.


Could it just be unrelated? That your symptoms cleared up on their own?------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.[This message has been edited by flux (edited 09-02-2001).]


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:However, when 40% (or whatever the number is) of the population is using alternative treatments, it's important to not simply brush this all aside as nonsense (as many in the medical establishment do), but to investigate the efficacy using scientific methods.


But *many of these methods have been investigated and found to be ineffective.* That 40% of people are using them just means medicine is failing to educate people well about what works and what doesn't. So you have found a failiing in real medicine.


> quote:He's right there telling you you don't know what the hell you're talking about when certainly HE isn't examining anyone from this board.


I merely point out that people shouldn't be so quick to make judgements. Look at your example below..


> quote:Yes, you sure can run to the bathroom an hour after eating lactose-laden food!


Who says you cannot run to the bathroom in this fashion? Who says the food has to be laden with lactose? How much lactose constitues being "laden"?


> quote:It just doesn't make any sense.


Could it just be unrelated? That your symptoms cleared up on their own?------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.[This message has been edited by flux (edited 09-02-2001).]


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## mkoonie (Nov 26, 2000)

After reading your reply Flux, I have no choice but to conclude that A. You think very highly of yourselfB. You think everyone else moronicC. Both A and BEarlier in the year, you implied that, even though I had one, I didn't understand how a lactose tolerance/glucose test worked. Now you are assuming that I am too stupid to monitor the reaction of my body to what I eat. Like 99.9% of the IBS people on this board (your posts convince me that you are NOT one of them), I have been conditioned to obsessively scrutinize anything and everything I consume. On any given day most of us could regurgitate exactly what, where, and when we ate a particular meal. So when we're sitting on the pot, sh**tting our brains out, we can say, "Ah yeah, ice cream is the devil incarnate, but I sure do like the taste of it."Until YOU experience the day-to-day dilemma of IBS, please refrain from telling the rest of us that we aren't knowledgeable about our bodies, our condition, and our remedies. P.S. The attempt to use my post to satisfy your point was weak at best.


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## mkoonie (Nov 26, 2000)

After reading your reply Flux, I have no choice but to conclude that A. You think very highly of yourselfB. You think everyone else moronicC. Both A and BEarlier in the year, you implied that, even though I had one, I didn't understand how a lactose tolerance/glucose test worked. Now you are assuming that I am too stupid to monitor the reaction of my body to what I eat. Like 99.9% of the IBS people on this board (your posts convince me that you are NOT one of them), I have been conditioned to obsessively scrutinize anything and everything I consume. On any given day most of us could regurgitate exactly what, where, and when we ate a particular meal. So when we're sitting on the pot, sh**tting our brains out, we can say, "Ah yeah, ice cream is the devil incarnate, but I sure do like the taste of it."Until YOU experience the day-to-day dilemma of IBS, please refrain from telling the rest of us that we aren't knowledgeable about our bodies, our condition, and our remedies. P.S. The attempt to use my post to satisfy your point was weak at best.


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## mkoonie (Nov 26, 2000)

norbert46,Sorry to have zipped past your vacation. Hope you had a great time!


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## mkoonie (Nov 26, 2000)

norbert46,Sorry to have zipped past your vacation. Hope you had a great time!


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## GailSusan (Dec 23, 2000)

Kmottus, have also found it to be true about finding close-minded and judgmental people in alternative medicine as well traditional medicine. Just had a naturopathic doctor tell me she could cure my IBS in three months (uh huh!). And, I have found humble and compassionate medical doctors along my travels. However, for the most part, since traditional medicine is the dominant paradigm, physicians (and, yes, I am generalizing here) often tend to act as if they have a corner on the truth. And, Flux, if 40% of the population is turning to alternative medicine, it may be not just because they need educating, but because they are not getting the results they need from traditional medicine. I'm not advocating alternative approaches over traditional medicine, I'm a pragmatist -- whatever works on my body is what matters to me.


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## GailSusan (Dec 23, 2000)

Kmottus, have also found it to be true about finding close-minded and judgmental people in alternative medicine as well traditional medicine. Just had a naturopathic doctor tell me she could cure my IBS in three months (uh huh!). And, I have found humble and compassionate medical doctors along my travels. However, for the most part, since traditional medicine is the dominant paradigm, physicians (and, yes, I am generalizing here) often tend to act as if they have a corner on the truth. And, Flux, if 40% of the population is turning to alternative medicine, it may be not just because they need educating, but because they are not getting the results they need from traditional medicine. I'm not advocating alternative approaches over traditional medicine, I'm a pragmatist -- whatever works on my body is what matters to me.


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## norbert46 (Feb 20, 2001)

Over the years I have probably been a sucker for just about any and all treatments, meds, therapies, herbals and other things I can't even remember until I read about other peoples' experiences. No real answers, just more questions??? The one thing I do know for sure is that there is a MD in Michigan who can cure IBS in anyone, guaranteed!!! My spelling may be wrong but I think his name is Dr. Kervorkian?????














Good luck, Norb[This message has been edited by norbert46 (edited 09-02-2001).]


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## norbert46 (Feb 20, 2001)

Over the years I have probably been a sucker for just about any and all treatments, meds, therapies, herbals and other things I can't even remember until I read about other peoples' experiences. No real answers, just more questions??? The one thing I do know for sure is that there is a MD in Michigan who can cure IBS in anyone, guaranteed!!! My spelling may be wrong but I think his name is Dr. Kervorkian?????














Good luck, Norb[This message has been edited by norbert46 (edited 09-02-2001).]


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:t may be not just because they need educating, but because they are not getting the results they need from traditional medicine.


I agree with you here. Just consider 100 years there was no real medicine, so at that time it was near 100%!------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:t may be not just because they need educating, but because they are not getting the results they need from traditional medicine.


I agree with you here. Just consider 100 years there was no real medicine, so at that time it was near 100%!------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.


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## JennT (Jul 17, 2000)

Thi si why whenever possible, I go to nurse practitioners. I'm generalizing here, but as a group, they seem more compassionate and more open-minded than most physicians, as well as more willing to admit it when they don't know, and more willing to believe that the patient has a brain!For instance, my PCP is a nurse practitioners, but if she's not there, I go to one of the doctors in the same group. I have observed that the medical doctors are more likely to ignore any symptoms that do not agree with their diagnosis (sometimes rightly so, to be fair; I had strep, and the upset stomach was just a side-effect of the medication), and more likely to write a prescription without even telling me what I've got, unless I ask outright.The ARNPs are more likely to say, "Hmmm - could be x or y, but we treat both with this drug. Here's try this.".------------------*JennT*


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## JennT (Jul 17, 2000)

Thi si why whenever possible, I go to nurse practitioners. I'm generalizing here, but as a group, they seem more compassionate and more open-minded than most physicians, as well as more willing to admit it when they don't know, and more willing to believe that the patient has a brain!For instance, my PCP is a nurse practitioners, but if she's not there, I go to one of the doctors in the same group. I have observed that the medical doctors are more likely to ignore any symptoms that do not agree with their diagnosis (sometimes rightly so, to be fair; I had strep, and the upset stomach was just a side-effect of the medication), and more likely to write a prescription without even telling me what I've got, unless I ask outright.The ARNPs are more likely to say, "Hmmm - could be x or y, but we treat both with this drug. Here's try this.".------------------*JennT*


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## Julia37 (May 9, 2001)

"quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------was dismissed by the medical establishment for 10 more years after it was available?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Exactly. That is the way it should be. When something discovered completely turns around our thinking, it requires extraordinary evidence. It takes time for science to gather good evidence"So what you're saying here, Flux, is that it's ok that suffering of people who could have been cured quickly was prolonged 10 more years? That's really ok with you? It isn't with me. It could have been confirmed much faster.I suppose you think it's ok that I suffered from severe congestion for 29 years and the 8 or so doctors I saw didn't even try to find the cause of my problem? You think that's ok too? (It was soy allergy)The reason I find your attitude so annoying is you sound exactly like those brain-dead arrogant doctors who didn't care about my suffering.







Grrrrrr!!!!mk, I think Flux does have LI but is in denial, and that's why he goes to such lengths trying to deny it in others. He can't give up his cheese, ice cream, cream sauce...Flux, it's not as hard as you think, and you will feel a lot better, and maybe you'll even be kinder and gentler.


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## Julia37 (May 9, 2001)

"quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------was dismissed by the medical establishment for 10 more years after it was available?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Exactly. That is the way it should be. When something discovered completely turns around our thinking, it requires extraordinary evidence. It takes time for science to gather good evidence"So what you're saying here, Flux, is that it's ok that suffering of people who could have been cured quickly was prolonged 10 more years? That's really ok with you? It isn't with me. It could have been confirmed much faster.I suppose you think it's ok that I suffered from severe congestion for 29 years and the 8 or so doctors I saw didn't even try to find the cause of my problem? You think that's ok too? (It was soy allergy)The reason I find your attitude so annoying is you sound exactly like those brain-dead arrogant doctors who didn't care about my suffering.







Grrrrrr!!!!mk, I think Flux does have LI but is in denial, and that's why he goes to such lengths trying to deny it in others. He can't give up his cheese, ice cream, cream sauce...Flux, it's not as hard as you think, and you will feel a lot better, and maybe you'll even be kinder and gentler.


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## Jared (Sep 1, 2001)

Heck, I'll jump into this free-for-all.First off, I get the feeling that Flux--like me--loves a good argument. If Flux is anything like me, then Flux will not ever be satisfied not to have the last word, so all you people trying to convince him to think your way--good luck!Second, I dispute Flux's claim that there is only one "medicine" -- that of the Western scientific community. The truth of the matter is that until very recently, little research has been done by the Western medical community into the efficacy of many alternative treatments. In fact, some of the studies that Western doctors rely on to "dispute" alternative medicines date from single small-scale clinical trials in the 1970s (this is especially true with FDA studies of certain herbal remedies). Therefore, we really don't *know* for sure whether alternative medicines are beneficial or not--but that doesn't mean they aren't.Second, I trust Western doctors very little these days. Medicine has simply become too complicated for any one person to "know it all." You need to be your own medical advocate which means you need to educate yourself about your health and you need to find good specialists to help plan your care. That really is the only thing general practioners are good for these days--referring you to a good specialist. Specialists are generally up to date on the latest procedures and drug treatments--in my experience general practioners are not.Furthermore, if we listened to our Western doctors none of us would have tried alternative treatments. My theory is if it works for you, use it. I really don't care if science never proves that alternative treatments work--if it helps me I'm going to use it.-- Jared


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## Jared (Sep 1, 2001)

Heck, I'll jump into this free-for-all.First off, I get the feeling that Flux--like me--loves a good argument. If Flux is anything like me, then Flux will not ever be satisfied not to have the last word, so all you people trying to convince him to think your way--good luck!Second, I dispute Flux's claim that there is only one "medicine" -- that of the Western scientific community. The truth of the matter is that until very recently, little research has been done by the Western medical community into the efficacy of many alternative treatments. In fact, some of the studies that Western doctors rely on to "dispute" alternative medicines date from single small-scale clinical trials in the 1970s (this is especially true with FDA studies of certain herbal remedies). Therefore, we really don't *know* for sure whether alternative medicines are beneficial or not--but that doesn't mean they aren't.Second, I trust Western doctors very little these days. Medicine has simply become too complicated for any one person to "know it all." You need to be your own medical advocate which means you need to educate yourself about your health and you need to find good specialists to help plan your care. That really is the only thing general practioners are good for these days--referring you to a good specialist. Specialists are generally up to date on the latest procedures and drug treatments--in my experience general practioners are not.Furthermore, if we listened to our Western doctors none of us would have tried alternative treatments. My theory is if it works for you, use it. I really don't care if science never proves that alternative treatments work--if it helps me I'm going to use it.-- Jared


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:So what you're saying here, Flux, is that it's ok that suffering of people who could have been cured quickly was prolonged 10 more years? That's really ok with you? It isn't with me. It could have been confirmed much faster.


Suffering is not at issue. The mechanism of the disease and the evaluation of evidence is. People have suffered for with disease for thousands of years long before there was any knowledge at all about any of this.


> quote:The truth of the matter is that until very recently, little research has been done by the Western medical community into the efficacy of many alternative treatments.


Untrue. Medicine is actually partially evolved from alternative medicine. Colonic irrigation and homeopathy were a part of real medicine until they were found ineffective and abandoned.------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:So what you're saying here, Flux, is that it's ok that suffering of people who could have been cured quickly was prolonged 10 more years? That's really ok with you? It isn't with me. It could have been confirmed much faster.


Suffering is not at issue. The mechanism of the disease and the evaluation of evidence is. People have suffered for with disease for thousands of years long before there was any knowledge at all about any of this.


> quote:The truth of the matter is that until very recently, little research has been done by the Western medical community into the efficacy of many alternative treatments.


Untrue. Medicine is actually partially evolved from alternative medicine. Colonic irrigation and homeopathy were a part of real medicine until they were found ineffective and abandoned.------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.


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## norbert46 (Feb 20, 2001)

Jared, I see that you're a new member and welcome to you! Some of the advice on this BB can help you to reduce your IBS symptoms and live a happier life. While you notice that Flux is blunt and to the point you will notice that in others also. Sometimes I disguise my bluntness with a little joking. Flux shows his humor with cute graphics that anger some people but that is the problem with some communicating thru logic and some communicating thru emotions! The thing to remember is that we get a feeling of desparation and want the IBS to stop and this makes us easy targets for anything from good medicine and therapies to snake oil that can harm or even kill under bad circumstances! Logic and reason will tell us to proceed with measured caution which is why some alternative treatments are risky. Proper testing and proofing is essential before releasing and approving meds(which can be herbal,etc.) to the public in general. Your body is a chemical factory and if seriously imbalanced, other bad problems can occur. A good example is with dietary cures. The Chinese herbs in the newer diet pills cause the metabolism and heart rate to speed up. Many people have gone to the ER to find a reaction causing their hearts to race! Why is it sold??? MONEY!!! Our congressmen have been bought by the unregulated alt. med. industry and there is no control, these companies are exempt from the FDA rules. A few years ago a sure way to lose weight fast was a pill that contained a concentrated extract taken from potato peels. It caused absorption of fats and excreted them in your BM's. After a bunch of deaths and a lot of furor it was removed. After the fact testing revealed that this alternative diet pill also depleted essential electrolytes and caused sudden cardiac arrests and death. Another one closer to home is that there is a man on this BB with an online herbal store that is selling a product he calls "bowelsoothe". This is one of many formulas of miracle cures from China??? He can't tell you exactly is in it, and brags in his posts that it is pure because it comes straight from China and he passes it on to you in the original unopened wrapper and packaging. Now, the question is, even if it does work and is a miracle cure, do you just blindly take a chance with your life and hope that nothing will show up as damaging to your health or life threatening?? If this is so good why can't it be tested, approved and sold under proper control??? MONEY!!!!!One more example and I quit(for now). One of the popular antispasmodic meds(western??) is Donnatal. It is derived from the very poisonous belladona herbal plants. This med is controlled,pure,safe and effective for a lot of IBS/D victims. There are places to get this poisonous Belladona for homeopatic treatment and it is "supposed" to be drastically diluted. Which makes more sense, go to the MD and get an Rx for safe Donnatal of take a chance on getting an overdose of poison??? Would you do it with Hemlock???? Good luck, Norb


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## norbert46 (Feb 20, 2001)

Jared, I see that you're a new member and welcome to you! Some of the advice on this BB can help you to reduce your IBS symptoms and live a happier life. While you notice that Flux is blunt and to the point you will notice that in others also. Sometimes I disguise my bluntness with a little joking. Flux shows his humor with cute graphics that anger some people but that is the problem with some communicating thru logic and some communicating thru emotions! The thing to remember is that we get a feeling of desparation and want the IBS to stop and this makes us easy targets for anything from good medicine and therapies to snake oil that can harm or even kill under bad circumstances! Logic and reason will tell us to proceed with measured caution which is why some alternative treatments are risky. Proper testing and proofing is essential before releasing and approving meds(which can be herbal,etc.) to the public in general. Your body is a chemical factory and if seriously imbalanced, other bad problems can occur. A good example is with dietary cures. The Chinese herbs in the newer diet pills cause the metabolism and heart rate to speed up. Many people have gone to the ER to find a reaction causing their hearts to race! Why is it sold??? MONEY!!! Our congressmen have been bought by the unregulated alt. med. industry and there is no control, these companies are exempt from the FDA rules. A few years ago a sure way to lose weight fast was a pill that contained a concentrated extract taken from potato peels. It caused absorption of fats and excreted them in your BM's. After a bunch of deaths and a lot of furor it was removed. After the fact testing revealed that this alternative diet pill also depleted essential electrolytes and caused sudden cardiac arrests and death. Another one closer to home is that there is a man on this BB with an online herbal store that is selling a product he calls "bowelsoothe". This is one of many formulas of miracle cures from China??? He can't tell you exactly is in it, and brags in his posts that it is pure because it comes straight from China and he passes it on to you in the original unopened wrapper and packaging. Now, the question is, even if it does work and is a miracle cure, do you just blindly take a chance with your life and hope that nothing will show up as damaging to your health or life threatening?? If this is so good why can't it be tested, approved and sold under proper control??? MONEY!!!!!One more example and I quit(for now). One of the popular antispasmodic meds(western??) is Donnatal. It is derived from the very poisonous belladona herbal plants. This med is controlled,pure,safe and effective for a lot of IBS/D victims. There are places to get this poisonous Belladona for homeopatic treatment and it is "supposed" to be drastically diluted. Which makes more sense, go to the MD and get an Rx for safe Donnatal of take a chance on getting an overdose of poison??? Would you do it with Hemlock???? Good luck, Norb


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Levsin is from a related plant called Henbane.So it's a somewhat natural drug as well.I don't recommend using henbane though as alot of the other alkaloids in it are quite hallucinogenic in addition to poisonous at high doses.Levsin may make some people feel a bit loopy, but at least they don't see funny things repelling down the walls in little rope climbing harnesses.K.------------------I am a scientific researcher primarily in the area of the environment and the impact of environmental factors on human health, I have no ties to the pharmaceutical industry. I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial, natural, or any other product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Levsin is from a related plant called Henbane.So it's a somewhat natural drug as well.I don't recommend using henbane though as alot of the other alkaloids in it are quite hallucinogenic in addition to poisonous at high doses.Levsin may make some people feel a bit loopy, but at least they don't see funny things repelling down the walls in little rope climbing harnesses.K.------------------I am a scientific researcher primarily in the area of the environment and the impact of environmental factors on human health, I have no ties to the pharmaceutical industry. I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial, natural, or any other product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html


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## GailSusan (Dec 23, 2000)

Norb, you're certainly right about IBS causing us to do desperate things. It would be great to be able to wait until medical science has proven a drug or treatment to be absolutely safe. However, thank God, there are fools like me around who out of total desperation take part in clinical drug trials (like I did three years ago with Zelnorm) to make sure there are drugs safe for people like you. When you take part in a clinical drug trial you have to sign a zillion waivers and you have no idea what the side effects or long term effects may be. I was willing to be a guinea pig for medical science. Probably not a "smart" or "safe" thing, but when your life isn't worth living anyways, there's not a lot to lose.


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## GailSusan (Dec 23, 2000)

Norb, you're certainly right about IBS causing us to do desperate things. It would be great to be able to wait until medical science has proven a drug or treatment to be absolutely safe. However, thank God, there are fools like me around who out of total desperation take part in clinical drug trials (like I did three years ago with Zelnorm) to make sure there are drugs safe for people like you. When you take part in a clinical drug trial you have to sign a zillion waivers and you have no idea what the side effects or long term effects may be. I was willing to be a guinea pig for medical science. Probably not a "smart" or "safe" thing, but when your life isn't worth living anyways, there's not a lot to lose.


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## Jared (Sep 1, 2001)

Flux your logic is flawed. Just because two out of hundreds of thousands of natural remedies have not been accepted by the medical community hardly means lengthy research was done on all alternative therapies. It also doesn't mean those alternative therapies don't work. As Mark Twain said there are "lies, damn lies, and statistics." As I investigate Western clinical trials, I am shocked at how doctors come to broad sweeping conclusions based on what are usually inconclusive results, or how they manipulate data to get the results they want to get by excluding data that doesn't quite fit what they were looking for.One of the worst problems with alternative therapies is that they are often based on herbal remedies which can't be patented. Drug companies can't make money by producing them. Hence they are never submitted to the FDA for clinical testing and hence any clincial testing that is done is usually not funded well enough to be comprehensive.For more info on this seerevention, June 2001 v53 i6 p119 The Truth about FDA Approval. (lack of funding slows Food and Drug Administration approval of herbal remedies) Varro E. Tyler. Also, three separate double-blind studies have shown the efficacy of Chinese herbal remedies in helping ease (and in some cases completely eliminate) IBS symptoms in both the long and short term. I submit that these remedies worked BEFORE they were clinically proven--in fact have probably worked for the past thousand years or so since they were invented. Doesn't it seem a little foolish to assume that Western medicine is the only medicine that works, and that if the clinical trials had never been done the herbal remedy would not have worked? Your logic is akin to someone who argues that if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to see it, it makes no sound. If a cure works, it works regardless whether Western science validates it or not.-- Jared


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## Jared (Sep 1, 2001)

Flux your logic is flawed. Just because two out of hundreds of thousands of natural remedies have not been accepted by the medical community hardly means lengthy research was done on all alternative therapies. It also doesn't mean those alternative therapies don't work. As Mark Twain said there are "lies, damn lies, and statistics." As I investigate Western clinical trials, I am shocked at how doctors come to broad sweeping conclusions based on what are usually inconclusive results, or how they manipulate data to get the results they want to get by excluding data that doesn't quite fit what they were looking for.One of the worst problems with alternative therapies is that they are often based on herbal remedies which can't be patented. Drug companies can't make money by producing them. Hence they are never submitted to the FDA for clinical testing and hence any clincial testing that is done is usually not funded well enough to be comprehensive.For more info on this seerevention, June 2001 v53 i6 p119 The Truth about FDA Approval. (lack of funding slows Food and Drug Administration approval of herbal remedies) Varro E. Tyler. Also, three separate double-blind studies have shown the efficacy of Chinese herbal remedies in helping ease (and in some cases completely eliminate) IBS symptoms in both the long and short term. I submit that these remedies worked BEFORE they were clinically proven--in fact have probably worked for the past thousand years or so since they were invented. Doesn't it seem a little foolish to assume that Western medicine is the only medicine that works, and that if the clinical trials had never been done the herbal remedy would not have worked? Your logic is akin to someone who argues that if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to see it, it makes no sound. If a cure works, it works regardless whether Western science validates it or not.-- Jared


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## Jared (Sep 1, 2001)

Sorry, posted twice by accident.-- Jared[This message has been edited by Jared (edited 09-04-2001).]


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## Jared (Sep 1, 2001)

Sorry, posted twice by accident.-- Jared[This message has been edited by Jared (edited 09-04-2001).]


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## JennT (Jul 17, 2000)

Also, just because the "medical community" is right about some things, doesn't mean they're right about everything. The same, of course, goes for alternative therapies. For instance, I have friends who swear that chiropractic care is paracticed only by charlatans who tell you that you need to go every week for the rest of your life, once you start. I also have friends who swear that chiropractors can sure anything from the common cold to athlete's foot. Who's right about this alternative (although becoming less so) therapy? Both and neither, from my personal observation. My accredited chiropractor can pretty much get rid of back, neck, and hip pain for me, and headaches if they're tension-based. I go in about 6 times a year, unless I injure myself. However, he luckily has enough integrity to admit that he doesn't know everything, and to *refuse treatment* to Mr. JennT, since Mr. Jennt's back problems are probably something only a neurosurgeon can handle, according to the "medically approved" MRI scan. So, a properly managed blending of western and "alternative" therapies works, as long as (like everything else in life) you are dealing with good honest people.The medical community (as a group - there are always exceptions) also needs to remove their collective heads from their collective buttocks before telling patients that they do not know what they are talking about. For instance, every GI doc and every self-styled medical expert that I have ever met swears that fast transit time does not happen, period, amen, without the patient dying of malnutrition (I may be overstating the case slightly). Okay, so explain this (the squeamish should stop here):I have not had corn, in any form, syrup or otherwise, for over 3 weeks.Tonight at 6:30, I had a single serving of corn-on-the-cob.At 6:50, I had D, with visible, identifiable bits of corn. So, did the cornflakes I ate three weeks ago spontaneously reform into proper corn and then wait three weeks before exiting my system, miraculously waiting until I had another serving of corn, just so I'd view the wrong thing as a trigger? I don't think so. Occam's Razor, people! The simplist solution is usually the best...When replying, if you quote me, please quote the entire thing, and not out of context. Thank you.PS: Mr JennT wants me to say something rude, but I'm not gonna.------------------*JennT*


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## JennT (Jul 17, 2000)

Also, just because the "medical community" is right about some things, doesn't mean they're right about everything. The same, of course, goes for alternative therapies. For instance, I have friends who swear that chiropractic care is paracticed only by charlatans who tell you that you need to go every week for the rest of your life, once you start. I also have friends who swear that chiropractors can sure anything from the common cold to athlete's foot. Who's right about this alternative (although becoming less so) therapy? Both and neither, from my personal observation. My accredited chiropractor can pretty much get rid of back, neck, and hip pain for me, and headaches if they're tension-based. I go in about 6 times a year, unless I injure myself. However, he luckily has enough integrity to admit that he doesn't know everything, and to *refuse treatment* to Mr. JennT, since Mr. Jennt's back problems are probably something only a neurosurgeon can handle, according to the "medically approved" MRI scan. So, a properly managed blending of western and "alternative" therapies works, as long as (like everything else in life) you are dealing with good honest people.The medical community (as a group - there are always exceptions) also needs to remove their collective heads from their collective buttocks before telling patients that they do not know what they are talking about. For instance, every GI doc and every self-styled medical expert that I have ever met swears that fast transit time does not happen, period, amen, without the patient dying of malnutrition (I may be overstating the case slightly). Okay, so explain this (the squeamish should stop here):I have not had corn, in any form, syrup or otherwise, for over 3 weeks.Tonight at 6:30, I had a single serving of corn-on-the-cob.At 6:50, I had D, with visible, identifiable bits of corn. So, did the cornflakes I ate three weeks ago spontaneously reform into proper corn and then wait three weeks before exiting my system, miraculously waiting until I had another serving of corn, just so I'd view the wrong thing as a trigger? I don't think so. Occam's Razor, people! The simplist solution is usually the best...When replying, if you quote me, please quote the entire thing, and not out of context. Thank you.PS: Mr JennT wants me to say something rude, but I'm not gonna.------------------*JennT*


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## Jared (Sep 1, 2001)

LOL! I wanna hear what Mr JennT has to say!-- Jared


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## Jared (Sep 1, 2001)

LOL! I wanna hear what Mr JennT has to say!-- Jared


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Flux your logic is flawed.


You have it backward...


> quote:Just because two out of hundreds of thousands of natural remedies have not been accepted by the medical community


Natural remedies? What's that got to do with alternative therapies?


> quote:One of the worst problems with alternative therapies is that they are often based on herbal remedies which can't be patented.


Most alternatives are not based on herbs. That's just one aspect of "alternative" medicine. Many "real" drugs came originally from plants and research into plant compounds today is still continuing. One probem that surfaced, in ironic opposition to your statement, is that some of the foreign governments and people want in on the patents and profits and that might be a wrench into further compound discovery! Another issue is that of the herbal concoctions, drug companies must find the individual component or components involved, do the testing to ensure safety and efficicy (and that involves huge effort) and also come up with a way to mass produce the stuff. It's a huge undertaking. Drug companies now employ combinatorial chemistry that leads to a quicker turnaround in product discovery.


> quote: three separate double-blind studies have shown the efficacy of Chinese herbal remedies


I don't know of even a single study where this was shown uneqivocally. You can't trust every paper you read.


> quote:Western medicine is the only medicine that works


You have begged the question. Western medicine *is* the only medicine. That is the point of above discussion.


> quote:ever met swears that fast transit time does not happen, period, amen, without the patient dying of malnutrition (I may be overstating the case slightly)


You have it right...


> quote:Tonight at 6:30, I had a single serving of corn-on-the-cob.At 6:50, I had D, with visible, identifiable bits of corn.


At this rate, we are going to have rename IBS *Imaginary Bowel Syndrome*. What you saw was *not* from that meal. The corn was still in your *stomach* at this time! Humans are notorious for misinterpreting their observations. This is just an example of that.


> quote: Occam's Razor, people! The simplist solution is usually the best...


I have given the *simplest* explanation above. What you believe is *impossible*------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Flux your logic is flawed.


You have it backward...


> quote:Just because two out of hundreds of thousands of natural remedies have not been accepted by the medical community


Natural remedies? What's that got to do with alternative therapies?


> quote:One of the worst problems with alternative therapies is that they are often based on herbal remedies which can't be patented.


Most alternatives are not based on herbs. That's just one aspect of "alternative" medicine. Many "real" drugs came originally from plants and research into plant compounds today is still continuing. One probem that surfaced, in ironic opposition to your statement, is that some of the foreign governments and people want in on the patents and profits and that might be a wrench into further compound discovery! Another issue is that of the herbal concoctions, drug companies must find the individual component or components involved, do the testing to ensure safety and efficicy (and that involves huge effort) and also come up with a way to mass produce the stuff. It's a huge undertaking. Drug companies now employ combinatorial chemistry that leads to a quicker turnaround in product discovery.


> quote: three separate double-blind studies have shown the efficacy of Chinese herbal remedies


I don't know of even a single study where this was shown uneqivocally. You can't trust every paper you read.


> quote:Western medicine is the only medicine that works


You have begged the question. Western medicine *is* the only medicine. That is the point of above discussion.


> quote:ever met swears that fast transit time does not happen, period, amen, without the patient dying of malnutrition (I may be overstating the case slightly)


You have it right...


> quote:Tonight at 6:30, I had a single serving of corn-on-the-cob.At 6:50, I had D, with visible, identifiable bits of corn.


At this rate, we are going to have rename IBS *Imaginary Bowel Syndrome*. What you saw was *not* from that meal. The corn was still in your *stomach* at this time! Humans are notorious for misinterpreting their observations. This is just an example of that.


> quote: Occam's Razor, people! The simplist solution is usually the best...


I have given the *simplest* explanation above. What you believe is *impossible*------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.


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## JennT (Jul 17, 2000)

Sure, Flux, whaetever. I'm too stupid to identify corn when I see it. Never mind. It's just hopeless, because you know everything there is to know about everything.<sigh>------------------*JennT*


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## JennT (Jul 17, 2000)

Sure, Flux, whaetever. I'm too stupid to identify corn when I see it. Never mind. It's just hopeless, because you know everything there is to know about everything.<sigh>------------------*JennT*


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## LisaL (Nov 14, 2000)

Some people feel that Flux communicates through logic and not emotion. Untrue - we can all communicate using logic without being ignorant (in the true meaning of the word) and rude. As if someone doesn't know when corn comes out of their butt, when no corn was previously eaten except at the said meal. Won't someone ask this you know what to leave the board? Is it not obvious how he loves to infuriate people?


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## LisaL (Nov 14, 2000)

Some people feel that Flux communicates through logic and not emotion. Untrue - we can all communicate using logic without being ignorant (in the true meaning of the word) and rude. As if someone doesn't know when corn comes out of their butt, when no corn was previously eaten except at the said meal. Won't someone ask this you know what to leave the board? Is it not obvious how he loves to infuriate people?


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

The problem is that the corn couldn't be coming out until everything eaten prior to the corn came out and it's fairly rare to have a totally empty GI tract as usually you have between 18 and 72 hours worth of food in the way. There isn't a good way for it to get past all though to come out that quickly. without all of that coming out first.Now if you've been having some heavy diarrhea leading up to this event then it kinda makes more sense. I've had that happen when I've eaten some bad food. The GI tract got empty enough that something I just ate comes out the other end in an hour or so, but basically at that point I was probably cleaned out well enough to have a colonoscopy without needing any additional prep







So under some circumstances it can happen, but certain things have to be in place for that to happen and there are things that I have eaten that look pretty corn-like when they come out the other end (generally something else small and not terribly well digested if you don't chew it up well first).K.PS Lisa...all that happens when flux is bumped off the board is a war between those that understand why he is gone and those who will fight any and all battles to get him reinstated.Those little wars are probably much more destructive to the board than any comment made by flux that could be seen as rude or snide.If you wonder what all that was go to the Meeting place archives and search for the words flux and banned. We've been there and burned the T-shirt once. Do we need to go there again







------------------I am a scientific researcher primarily in the area of the environment and the impact of environmental factors on human health, I have no ties to the pharmaceutical industry. I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial, natural, or any other product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html[This message has been edited by kmottus (edited 09-04-2001).]


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

The problem is that the corn couldn't be coming out until everything eaten prior to the corn came out and it's fairly rare to have a totally empty GI tract as usually you have between 18 and 72 hours worth of food in the way. There isn't a good way for it to get past all though to come out that quickly. without all of that coming out first.Now if you've been having some heavy diarrhea leading up to this event then it kinda makes more sense. I've had that happen when I've eaten some bad food. The GI tract got empty enough that something I just ate comes out the other end in an hour or so, but basically at that point I was probably cleaned out well enough to have a colonoscopy without needing any additional prep







So under some circumstances it can happen, but certain things have to be in place for that to happen and there are things that I have eaten that look pretty corn-like when they come out the other end (generally something else small and not terribly well digested if you don't chew it up well first).K.PS Lisa...all that happens when flux is bumped off the board is a war between those that understand why he is gone and those who will fight any and all battles to get him reinstated.Those little wars are probably much more destructive to the board than any comment made by flux that could be seen as rude or snide.If you wonder what all that was go to the Meeting place archives and search for the words flux and banned. We've been there and burned the T-shirt once. Do we need to go there again







------------------I am a scientific researcher primarily in the area of the environment and the impact of environmental factors on human health, I have no ties to the pharmaceutical industry. I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial, natural, or any other product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html[This message has been edited by kmottus (edited 09-04-2001).]


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## JennT (Jul 17, 2000)

Thank you, kmottus; that makes sense. I had had D all day that day (and a small appetite because of it), so I guess there was nothing left in my intestinal tract anyway.Sorry about that last post; I didn't mean to sound quite so sarcastic, but just to add a little more sarcasm into the mix, well...Gee, you mean there *are* circumstances in which one could have a fast transit time. Amazing.The problem as I see it is that Flux is speaking in absolutes, i.e. "Transit time is *never* that fast", whereas most of us (and please correct me if I'm wrong about this), are aware and willing to admit that there *are* circumstances in which this could happen. I'll remember that. It should help me not to take those absolute statements as a personal attack.------------------*JennT*


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## JennT (Jul 17, 2000)

Thank you, kmottus; that makes sense. I had had D all day that day (and a small appetite because of it), so I guess there was nothing left in my intestinal tract anyway.Sorry about that last post; I didn't mean to sound quite so sarcastic, but just to add a little more sarcasm into the mix, well...Gee, you mean there *are* circumstances in which one could have a fast transit time. Amazing.The problem as I see it is that Flux is speaking in absolutes, i.e. "Transit time is *never* that fast", whereas most of us (and please correct me if I'm wrong about this), are aware and willing to admit that there *are* circumstances in which this could happen. I'll remember that. It should help me not to take those absolute statements as a personal attack.------------------*JennT*


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Most absolute statemtents should have the "under standard conditions of temperature, pressure, etc." in the small print somewhere.Where the problem tends to come in is that people don't always know what "non-standard" conditions are.When unusual circumstances occur, sometime unusual things happen. Under normal conditions most unusual things almost never happenNow if you were having standard conditions (Bowel movements of normal consistancy that occur 3X a week to 3X a day) it is true that you *never* see transit times that fast.Under unusual conditions of severe diarrhea to where you are already pretty much cleaned out, or things like short-bowel syndrome you can see unusual things happen. If it happens on a regular basis (and some people do occasionally claim everything they eat comes out an hour after they eat) you are typically very ill and not wandering around using bulliten boards on the internet. Generally you are in the hospital and they are debating which kind of feeding tube they should be using on you and you have diagnosis other than IBS.Assuming it was normal IBS-type diarrhea you also wouldn't see that as the transit time from the mouth to the colon is generally in the normal range of 3 hourish. So 20 minutes even under normal IBS conditions (whatever that is







) would also never be seen.K.------------------I am a scientific researcher primarily in the area of the environment and the impact of environmental factors on human health, I have no ties to the pharmaceutical industry. I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial, natural, or any other product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html[This message has been edited by kmottus (edited 09-04-2001).]


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Most absolute statemtents should have the "under standard conditions of temperature, pressure, etc." in the small print somewhere.Where the problem tends to come in is that people don't always know what "non-standard" conditions are.When unusual circumstances occur, sometime unusual things happen. Under normal conditions most unusual things almost never happenNow if you were having standard conditions (Bowel movements of normal consistancy that occur 3X a week to 3X a day) it is true that you *never* see transit times that fast.Under unusual conditions of severe diarrhea to where you are already pretty much cleaned out, or things like short-bowel syndrome you can see unusual things happen. If it happens on a regular basis (and some people do occasionally claim everything they eat comes out an hour after they eat) you are typically very ill and not wandering around using bulliten boards on the internet. Generally you are in the hospital and they are debating which kind of feeding tube they should be using on you and you have diagnosis other than IBS.Assuming it was normal IBS-type diarrhea you also wouldn't see that as the transit time from the mouth to the colon is generally in the normal range of 3 hourish. So 20 minutes even under normal IBS conditions (whatever that is







) would also never be seen.K.------------------I am a scientific researcher primarily in the area of the environment and the impact of environmental factors on human health, I have no ties to the pharmaceutical industry. I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial, natural, or any other product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html[This message has been edited by kmottus (edited 09-04-2001).]


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## JennT (Jul 17, 2000)

Thanks, Kmottus. I understand now. . I just looked at my diary from yesterday and found that my earlier statement of a twenty-minute window was a *BIG* exaggeration (I guess it just felt that way







). I started dinner at 5:30 (not 6:30), and did not have D until 8:50 (not 6:50). This is slightly more than the three-hour transit time you described, so the fact that I had had D for about a day before that means that conceivably it was, in fact, the CORN from that meal!All please note - if I were reporting these symptoms to my doctor, I'd bring in the diary and be a lot more specific. I didn't do that in last night's post because I was upstairs, my gut was just beginning to settle down, and I didn't really want to go get my diary downstairs. My bad. Bad reporting on my part. Sue me. It was still corn from that very meal. But I can understand why people (and especially Flux) would be skeptical.------------------*JennT*


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## JennT (Jul 17, 2000)

Thanks, Kmottus. I understand now. . I just looked at my diary from yesterday and found that my earlier statement of a twenty-minute window was a *BIG* exaggeration (I guess it just felt that way







). I started dinner at 5:30 (not 6:30), and did not have D until 8:50 (not 6:50). This is slightly more than the three-hour transit time you described, so the fact that I had had D for about a day before that means that conceivably it was, in fact, the CORN from that meal!All please note - if I were reporting these symptoms to my doctor, I'd bring in the diary and be a lot more specific. I didn't do that in last night's post because I was upstairs, my gut was just beginning to settle down, and I didn't really want to go get my diary downstairs. My bad. Bad reporting on my part. Sue me. It was still corn from that very meal. But I can understand why people (and especially Flux) would be skeptical.------------------*JennT*


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Uh oh JennTYour just a human as the rest of us




























People are notoriously bad at remembering details like that, which is why diaries of symptoms and food is often needed to record things. K.------------------I am a scientific researcher primarily in the area of the environment and the impact of environmental factors on human health, I have no ties to the pharmaceutical industry. I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial, natural, or any other product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Uh oh JennTYour just a human as the rest of us




























People are notoriously bad at remembering details like that, which is why diaries of symptoms and food is often needed to record things. K.------------------I am a scientific researcher primarily in the area of the environment and the impact of environmental factors on human health, I have no ties to the pharmaceutical industry. I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial, natural, or any other product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html


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## Jared (Sep 1, 2001)

As I've already stated, Flux won't be happy until he gets the last word so this is my last post on the topic (I've got $10 that says Flux won't be able to resist posting a reply to this...).First off Flux, you should read the Journal of American Medicine more often. Specifically:_Treatment of irritable bowel syndrome with Chinese herbal medicine: a randomized controlled trial._ Alan Bensoussan, Nick J. Talley, Michael Hing, Robert Menzies, Anna Guo, Meng Ngu. JAMA, The Journal of the American Medical Association. Nov 11, 1998 v280 i18 p1585(1).Over a year of clinical study showed marked improvement and in some cases complete elimination of symptoms using Chinese Herbal remedies. In the doctors' own words:"To our knowledge, this is the first clinical trial in CHM that fully adheres to the traditional Chinese diagnostic and treatment processes while using a strict and accepted methodological protocol. Our study demonstrated that OHM is effective in the management of symptoms related to IBS with, in some cases, effects lasting up to 14 weeks after completion of treatment." The above clinical trial is the most famous. For others, see:_Chinese Medicine Update: Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS)_ By: Flaws, Bob. In: Townsend Letters for Doctors & Patients; 06/30/1999; N.191; p.40-41which lists several other studies conducted by both Chinese and Western doctors, showing the efficacy of various Chinese Herbal remedies in treating IBS.I find it incredibly funny you accusing me of begging the question when it is you who are playing games with semantics rather than logically arguing for your position. It just goes to show you don't really have an argument other than the fact that you like to argue.1) Natural remedies are considered an alternative treatment by the FDA. The FDA has even done studies on Prune Juice (for treatment of constipation). If you didn't know this, it means you didn't bother looking up the references I cited and further goes to show you're just posting for the sake of argument rather than the sake of logical debate.2) I didn't say most alternative therapies were based on herbs -- you did when you misquoted me. My exact comment was "alternative therapies are often based on herbal remedies." Of course there are other therapies out there such as reiki and rolfing that are not based on herbal remedies, but I was not arguing for the efficacy of those (at this time). 3) BTW, the whole explanation about how drug companies need to isolate compounds proves my point, thank you very much. The process is prohibitively expensive which means possible herbal remedies get the short end of the stick when it comes to clinical research and close study by the FDA. 4) And my quote backwards would read: "Flawed is logic your Flux," which, while grammatically incorrect, is still true.See you're not the only one on this board who can play with words.







-- Jared


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## Jared (Sep 1, 2001)

As I've already stated, Flux won't be happy until he gets the last word so this is my last post on the topic (I've got $10 that says Flux won't be able to resist posting a reply to this...).First off Flux, you should read the Journal of American Medicine more often. Specifically:_Treatment of irritable bowel syndrome with Chinese herbal medicine: a randomized controlled trial._ Alan Bensoussan, Nick J. Talley, Michael Hing, Robert Menzies, Anna Guo, Meng Ngu. JAMA, The Journal of the American Medical Association. Nov 11, 1998 v280 i18 p1585(1).Over a year of clinical study showed marked improvement and in some cases complete elimination of symptoms using Chinese Herbal remedies. In the doctors' own words:"To our knowledge, this is the first clinical trial in CHM that fully adheres to the traditional Chinese diagnostic and treatment processes while using a strict and accepted methodological protocol. Our study demonstrated that OHM is effective in the management of symptoms related to IBS with, in some cases, effects lasting up to 14 weeks after completion of treatment." The above clinical trial is the most famous. For others, see:_Chinese Medicine Update: Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS)_ By: Flaws, Bob. In: Townsend Letters for Doctors & Patients; 06/30/1999; N.191; p.40-41which lists several other studies conducted by both Chinese and Western doctors, showing the efficacy of various Chinese Herbal remedies in treating IBS.I find it incredibly funny you accusing me of begging the question when it is you who are playing games with semantics rather than logically arguing for your position. It just goes to show you don't really have an argument other than the fact that you like to argue.1) Natural remedies are considered an alternative treatment by the FDA. The FDA has even done studies on Prune Juice (for treatment of constipation). If you didn't know this, it means you didn't bother looking up the references I cited and further goes to show you're just posting for the sake of argument rather than the sake of logical debate.2) I didn't say most alternative therapies were based on herbs -- you did when you misquoted me. My exact comment was "alternative therapies are often based on herbal remedies." Of course there are other therapies out there such as reiki and rolfing that are not based on herbal remedies, but I was not arguing for the efficacy of those (at this time). 3) BTW, the whole explanation about how drug companies need to isolate compounds proves my point, thank you very much. The process is prohibitively expensive which means possible herbal remedies get the short end of the stick when it comes to clinical research and close study by the FDA. 4) And my quote backwards would read: "Flawed is logic your Flux," which, while grammatically incorrect, is still true.See you're not the only one on this board who can play with words.







-- Jared


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## jenjen (Nov 30, 2000)

when i saw that this topic was 3 pages long, i should've known it was another Flux Debate.lol!! its like deja vu all over again.





















[This message has been edited by jenjen (edited 09-04-2001).]


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## jenjen (Nov 30, 2000)

when i saw that this topic was 3 pages long, i should've known it was another Flux Debate.lol!! its like deja vu all over again.





















[This message has been edited by jenjen (edited 09-04-2001).]


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Treatment of irritable bowel syndrome with Chinese herbal medicine: a randomized controlled trial. Alan Bensoussan, Nick J. Talley Michael Hing, Robert Menzies, Anna Guo, Meng Ngu. JAMA, The Journal of the American Medical Association. Nov 11, 1998 v280 i18 1585(1).


This is one I was referring to.


> quote:Natural remedies are considered an alternative treatment by the FDA.


The FDA doesn't decide what's alternative and what's not. Nor do they evaluate treatments as you claim.


> quote:"alternative therapies are often based on herbal remedies


And that is not the case as I stated.


> quoterohibitively expensive which means possible herbal remedies get the short end of the stick


Expensive yes, but not prohibitive as I had stated there is work going on in this area.------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Treatment of irritable bowel syndrome with Chinese herbal medicine: a randomized controlled trial. Alan Bensoussan, Nick J. Talley Michael Hing, Robert Menzies, Anna Guo, Meng Ngu. JAMA, The Journal of the American Medical Association. Nov 11, 1998 v280 i18 1585(1).


This is one I was referring to.


> quote:Natural remedies are considered an alternative treatment by the FDA.


The FDA doesn't decide what's alternative and what's not. Nor do they evaluate treatments as you claim.


> quote:"alternative therapies are often based on herbal remedies


And that is not the case as I stated.


> quoterohibitively expensive which means possible herbal remedies get the short end of the stick


Expensive yes, but not prohibitive as I had stated there is work going on in this area.------------------I am not a doctor, nor do I work for profit in the medical/pharmacological field, but I have read scientific and medical texts, and have access to numerous sources of medical information that are not readily available to others. One should always consult a medical professional regarding advice received.


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## Julia37 (May 9, 2001)

Jared, I'm impressed with your research abilities. I hope you continue to post sources, someday I'll have time to look them up.







As you'll see, when Flux runs out of ways to twist our words he'll stop posting. Welcome to the board!


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## Julia37 (May 9, 2001)

Jared, I'm impressed with your research abilities. I hope you continue to post sources, someday I'll have time to look them up.







As you'll see, when Flux runs out of ways to twist our words he'll stop posting. Welcome to the board!


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## Julia37 (May 9, 2001)

P.S. - Looks like Jared won $10!


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## Julia37 (May 9, 2001)

P.S. - Looks like Jared won $10!


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## mkoonie (Nov 26, 2000)

Jared,You're a man after my own heart! Although I admire a person who knows of what she or he speaks, Flux's language of absolutes (thanks JennT!) thoroughly works my last nerve. His condemnation of one's account of pain infuriates so many becauseA. To the best of my knowledge Flux has yet to publicly proclaim he has IBS/LIB. His posts seem to be aimed at discrediting the posters by discrediting their claimsC. He insinuates that some posters are complete morons Welcome to the board, friend!JennT,Wow! To repost and correct your timeline of events shows honest and courage. Thanks for displaying such integrity.







Mr. JennT,You're lucky to have JennT because THIS Jen would ENCOURAGED you to post!


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## mkoonie (Nov 26, 2000)

Jared,You're a man after my own heart! Although I admire a person who knows of what she or he speaks, Flux's language of absolutes (thanks JennT!) thoroughly works my last nerve. His condemnation of one's account of pain infuriates so many becauseA. To the best of my knowledge Flux has yet to publicly proclaim he has IBS/LIB. His posts seem to be aimed at discrediting the posters by discrediting their claimsC. He insinuates that some posters are complete morons Welcome to the board, friend!JennT,Wow! To repost and correct your timeline of events shows honest and courage. Thanks for displaying such integrity.







Mr. JennT,You're lucky to have JennT because THIS Jen would ENCOURAGED you to post!


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## JennT (Jul 17, 2000)

Thanks! I appreciate it. Warm fuzzies are always nice







I'm a writer by trade, so I like to be as accurate in print as possible. I was really emarassed that I had so exaggerated the timing...------------------*JennT*


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## JennT (Jul 17, 2000)

Thanks! I appreciate it. Warm fuzzies are always nice







I'm a writer by trade, so I like to be as accurate in print as possible. I was really emarassed that I had so exaggerated the timing...------------------*JennT*


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