# ProVen



## twonK (Oct 30, 2006)

Hi,I'm surprised that ProVen isn't being discussed all over ibsgroup.org. It was brought to my attention by Patma75 in the 'Breakthrough in IBS treatment, probiotic vs placebos' post.I started a few weeks back, noticed some differences and now nothing. Initial differences were some gurgles, some internal movement, but no useful benefit [I have IBS-C].Is anyone else trying it out? Anyone got any results on it?Cheers,Pete


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## IanRamsay (Nov 23, 2008)

Hi I am "of knowledge" in the bacterial area, and im not surprised that the proven isnt working because it only works, or at leats seems to work in only very particular people with specific gut bacterial makeups and distributions. it will indeed "cure" the odd person, but for the most part the strains and teh ingredients in teh amounts contained within dont support each other unless you fall in to a very thin slot of the right people. I studied proven in detail for some time because i heard some miraculous reports. sadly it seems that they are isolated incidents. PROBIOTICS do work, make no mistake, but it is an extremely personal thing. it took me 12 years to find teh exact strain that i needed, now, 95% better. and getting better every day. dont give up hope, try em all untill you find one that works for you. if you can try single strains instead of multi strains.cheersIan


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## twonK (Oct 30, 2006)

Hi Ian,I know virtually nothing about probiotics & prebiotics but what you're saying contradicts the findings of their study:


> In a trial involving 52 patients clinically diagnosed with IBS, half were given a high strength multistrain probiotic capsule while the other half took placebos - pills which have no effect.Patients were assessed every two weeks during an eight week period and again two weeks after the trial had ended.After two weeks 68 per cent of those taking the ProVen probiotic reported an improvement in their symptoms, rising to 92 per cent after eight weeks.


Are there other studies or reports you're looking at in addition to these results?The one thing that disappoints me about their results is


> reported *an *improvement in their symptoms


which to me means that the patients' symptoms were not significantly or greatly reduced, otherwise they would be shouting that from the rooftops.Pete


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## IanRamsay (Nov 23, 2008)

I take all my information from medical journals and white papers released on clinical and scientific trials held in teh UK, US, and some parts of europe likle swtzerland and germany and the far east. I seldom rarely ever take any notice of any trials that have been carried out by teh manufacturere because they arnt likely to say that their product dosent work or only works on 1 in 10000 etc. BUT there have been some, that is some, genuin health revesals with proven, just not that many that i can find. and some of those that i have come across could possibly be put down to other factors. It is difficult where probiotics are concerned, because everybody responds differently to different strains. over the last 12 years i have tried 68% of all probiotic strains individually. and a couple of them even made me extremely unwell, purely because they just didnt get on with my system. given, those 3 strains where newly discovered and to be honest teh research did point out that they had the potential for massive harm in suseptable individuals. but it is trial and error. The one that seems to have the best response in IBS sufferers is teh BIFIDUS family of probiotics WITHOUT PRE BIOTICS, and on its own in a single strain dose of at least 4 billion a day. ANY pro biotic also needs to be taken on an empty stomach, at least 30 minutes before food, and preferably in a powdered form mixed with 1 oz of pure water. or you can grow your own strains and eat them with natural yogurt. It is also important to remember that BIO FLAVENOIDS are also an essential part of digestive and cardio vascular system health. i mix bio flavenoids with my pro biotics in specific amounts along with a grapefruit seed extract powder. A chap called overitnow is teh one to speak to about bio flavenoids, he is living proof that they can work wonders.Keep on going with teh proven for 4 weeks to give it a fair shot, as that is teh accepted length of time that you should give a probiotic to work well enough to see results. if you still havent seen any results by then, bin them and try another one.cheersIan


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## IanRamsay (Nov 23, 2008)

Oh i forgot to add that almost all children will respond well to ANY of the more common probiotic strains, infinately quicker and with more noticable response than an adult would. some manufacturers deliberately use under 16s as controlls in clinical trials for this reason apparently. i have never come accross it personally but i have been told it does happen.


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## twonK (Oct 30, 2006)

Hi,yes, I also cannot see how a manufacturer could remain unbiased. Thanks for the info on how to take them. Like you I have chronic GERD [well, NERD actually] and take 2x150mg Ranitidine daily. I take one in the a.m. and one before dinner, around 7pm. Would these have an effect on the probiotic? Should I avoid taking the Ranitidine and probiotic at the same time?On a related note, taking antacids changes the pH level of the gut and I've read numerous sources that this has a significant effect on gut flora. Has this figured in your 12 year research journey? Is this an important factor in your mind?I spoke with overitnow regarding the bioflavenoids. I looked online for the brand he recommended but didn't purchase, I can't remember the reason now. My local healthfood store and other chains [e.g. GMC, Vitamin Shoppe] don't carry the exact flavenoid [grape-skin I seem to remember?] and I was reluctant to buy a different one.Cheers for the info,Pete


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## IanRamsay (Nov 23, 2008)

AHHHHH RANITIDINE!!! my nemisis.yep i took it for months the same dose as you. all i got was indigestion! (honestly im not joking). the amount of stomach acid that you have does affect gut flora simply because teh stomach acid kills off most of teh bacteria that you ingest, so very little negative bacteria get in to your intestines and bowl, leaving teh populations that are already there relatively unchanged. if you have very little stomach acid, less bacteria is killed off before it gets in to the intestines, hence the reason why in teh ranitidine patient information leaflet it says that chest and gut infections are more easily caught (or something along those lines.) asically the less acid there is in teh stomach at teh time of probiotic ingestion the better! which is why it is reccomended that you take probiotics on an empty stomach, first thing in the morning 30 mins before food, so there is minimal stomach acid sloshing about.I hate gerd. it seems to have all but cleared up since i found the right probiotics for my gut. not entirely sure why, but ill work it out eventually.cheersIan


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## Patman75 (Mar 9, 2008)

IanRamsay said:


> AHHHHH RANITIDINE!!! my nemisis.










Thanks for the chuckle. I remember all the tums and pepto I used to take when I thought I needed it. I havn't needed to take one in almost a year now and I will never take another antacid for the rest of my life.So IanRamsay...what is you special probiotic blend that your taking these days? If you don't mind me asking.Thanks!Pat


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## IanRamsay (Nov 23, 2008)

Hi PatmanPEPTO!!!!! i was sinking a bottle a day for almost a year. god the damage i must have done to my gut i dont even like to think about, let alone the stomach. and the ridiculous thing is, when it did help the gerd, it only vaguely helped for about half an our. i also haven't taken any antacids for a very long time, and like you i never intend on taking one ever again. evil bloody things.The strain that i take is a spliced strain of bifidus family bacteria. you can buy individual bifidus strains and simply take em all untill you find a combination that works. sadly there are so many types of pro biotic any single one could work for any single person. im still having trouble developing bacteria Specific tests that can be done quickly and cheaply. AND i still havent worked out exactly why the probiotic has fixed my gut and my stomach. i have worked out the broad strokes but the details dont make sence. i suppose you could say there is a missing link. but if it takes me another 12 years to work it all out, ill get there in the end. cheersian


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## overitnow (Nov 25, 2001)

twonK said:


> I spoke with overitnow regarding the bioflavenoids. I looked online for the brand he recommended but didn't purchase, I can't remember the reason now.


Generally, it's because of the customer marketing/membership nature of the company. I have a couple of friends who are always trying to duplicate the success my wife and I have had with this stuff by buying similar products at the vitamin shop. Because the research, especially on absorption and eliminating free radical generation is unique, they normally don't have the same results. Even getting published studies makes no difference. (The latest is two friends talking repeatedly about their meno-sweats. Mariann has eliminated them since March; but it just has to be something else she is doing.







) Someday Ian will get his probiotic with flavonoid mixture to market and that should help. If it's 20 years, I expect I will be too dead to see the day.Anyway, Pete, good hunting to you.Mark


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## Lookin'foraLife (Jan 2, 2009)

Hi guys, I've tried a few probiotics for months and...nil. How long do you have to take them before noticing any improvement?


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## IanRamsay (Nov 23, 2008)

HiIf you get the right one, you will start to see an improvement in a couple of weeks, sometimes it can take as little as 48 hours. the thing to remember is that there are lots of different strains. it took me 12 years to find the right one. it is also worth remembering that some people simply dont need them at all, because bacteria may not be the problem that causes their symptoms. personally i think bacteria is the key to most ailments, but vitamin and mineral suppliments can affect bacterial distribution as well.cheersIan


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## twonK (Oct 30, 2006)

I used to be on Prevacid, Nexium and other PPI's until I read that you should aim for the weakest med that relieves your GERD, which makes sense to me. The logic being that if you over do it with the antacids, your gut will become too alkaline and it screws your gut flora.I tried stopping the ranitidine for a week and didn't make it past 3 days, the NERD pain came back. So if less acid is better then taking the probiotic with antacid is fine, if not optimal?NERD really doesn't bother me any more. Now and again I eat a large portion of food [normally when someone puts a plate of delicious food in front of me when I'm really hungry] and pay the price but overall it's not a problem.Pete


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## twonK (Oct 30, 2006)

A quick update. The instructions on the ProVen box say to take one pill and the ProVen was having no effect and I was naturally disappointed.Then I re-read the info about the Sheffield trial where the patients were given two pills. I then re-read the box and it says to take 2 pills if you want to repeat the Sheffield trial! Ridiculous and misleading.Anyway I started taking 2 per day and I've become regular. I have not been regular since... well, I can't remember it was so long ago. I only go once a day and it's not ummm a 'thorough' BM but it certainly helps. I'm now taking a laxative only once a week thereabouts.I've tried a bazillion different laxatives, fibres, pre/probiotics, Zelnorm, Amitiza and others and nothing previously had a positive effect. Go ProVen!I'll post again in a few weeks.Cheers,Pete


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## hope* (Aug 1, 2005)

Ok, i'm worried now because i have been on Omprezole for about two years for bad reflux, my gastro consultant is happy to leave me on them, but my doctor wants me off them, he gave me gavisgon to try, but the chest pain and reflux was so bad i had to go back on my meds, i couldn't eat with the pain (being under eight stone i cant afford to lose weight) . But i do worry long term what these drugs will do to my insides!


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## IanRamsay (Nov 23, 2008)

HiTry probiotics. if you really must, have a go at Proven, but i can reccomend trying some single strain probiotics in capsual or powder form from the BIFIDUS family. most health food shops will sell them. if you can get them, get them with out pre biotics. cheersIan


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## Kirsty1 (Jan 14, 2009)

Oh this sounds confusing







I tried Solgar Probiotics once they made me feel worse!!What is the difference between Pro and Pre and can anyone recommend what I should try for upset stomach, terrible gas and bloating?Kirsty


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## IanRamsay (Nov 23, 2008)

HiProbiotics are a personal thing. some will make you feel worse initially. this is called teh herx reaction. it lasts form a day to two weeks but it will pass and you will feel better for it in teh end! pre biotics are the food for the probiotics, but probiotics get all the food they need naturally in teh gut from teh food that you eat. pre biotics dont get on with alot of people and i generally dont reccomend them to any one as i dont see that they are that necessary.the best thing to do is try different probiotics one at a time for 4 weeks at a time. if you dont see any improvement after 4 weeks, bin them and move on to the next one. there are no mirical cures, and universal one fits all probiotics. what works for you, works for you. products like actimel are generally not worth the money as they contain such small quantities of gram positive bacteria and a huge amount of sugar that they cant actually make a difference to the bacterial population in your gut. the "ACTIREGULARIS" in the activia is not a real verified and isolated probiotic strain, but a bog standard one that theyhave " rebranded" with a consumer friendly name, and again, the numbers of gram positive bacteria actually present in the yogurt are not enough to make a real lasting difference to the bacterial balance in the gut, at best any positive effect that it will have on the gut will only last for the duration of teh probiotic through the digestive system. its basicallya placebo with a few bacteria thrown in for good measure. If you want to start taking a probiotic suppliment, go for individual strains, starting with teh bifidus family in either capsual or powder form, in quantities of 2 to 4 billion cultures per dose. (actimel and activia have maybe 10 million at best in ideal conditions.) take them once a day on an empty stomach first thing in teh morning with water 30 minutes before food. start off slow with a quarter dose for a week, the a half dose per day for a week, the en a full dose for 2 weeks and see how you get on. any probiotic has the possibility to aleviate gas, D and C, etc, but you just have to find teh probiotic that works for you. thats the hard bit. Bifidus family seem to have good results in the right numbers for IBS patients.cheersIan


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Do it help reduce gas?


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## twonK (Oct 30, 2006)

SpAsMaN* said:


> Do it help reduce gas?


Overall I'd say yes. I got hammered by some broccoli/pizza/too much insoluble fibre the other day [as in laid out on my bed feeling exhausted, wire, sick and bloated all at once] but I even felt at that time that it was less intense than before I started ProVen. Not that that necessarily means that it's ProVen making the difference, of course.Pete


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Do you have improvement?


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## twonK (Oct 30, 2006)

A quick update.Sadly I am back to being completely constipated. This happened about 2 weeks ago, amusingly about a week after I ordered another $70 worth of ProVen :/Back to the drawing board.Pete


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## IanRamsay (Nov 23, 2008)

Im sorry to hear that mate, i know how you feel. i was constipated for almost 20 years. i tried to tell you not to waste your money on it though! (im not a medical doctor, but i know my stuff when it comes to probiotics.)cheersIan


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