# Dr. Bolen, AZ, Eric... mind if I ask your opinion?



## shyra22f (May 9, 2000)

Just a question and a thought. My panic trigger is stores and bank machines and I get scared going to them alone (although I've been working on this) and I know that having a 'safe person' to bring along doesn't really help in the long run because you begin to think that you can't do it unless you're with someone. But do you think that bringing someone places with me could help me get used to being in that atmosphere to realize it's not that bad or do you think that's still going to make me dependant on having someone with me?And just another question; I know this may sound weird... but people who suffer from panic disorder are scared of the fear they feel right? All the physcial symptoms like the adreneline, shakes, etc. So I'm just curious what sets people with panic disorder apart from people who ENJOY getting an adreneline rush from doing activites such as ski diving, cliff jumping and things of the sort. It seems people who have panic disorder/anxiety fear those feeling while people doing 'extreme sports' actually seek out that feeling!







Just something I was curious about.Anyone else who has any thoughts on this I'd appreciate your help. Thanks!







[This message has been edited by shyra22f (edited 03-02-2001).]


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Shyra,I am sure Dr Bolen will answer this one for you. I hope your doing okay though at the moment, and its good to see you working these issues through.







------------------I work with Mike and the audio 100 program. www.ibshealth.com www.ibsaudioprogram.com


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## AZmom1 (Dec 6, 1999)

Shyra,You're getting it!







If you can do it on your own, do it. As you know, it's how you talk to yourself in a situation. I found that even if I had a safe person with me, I would say to myself, "Sure, I could do it with ... but how will I be on my own?" So for me, it never really "counted" until I could do it on my own. But, be careful of "testing" yourself. That is something I used to do, and would never give myself credit for success.You watched the Oprah show yesterday, right? Like the woman on the show, at some point you have to do it on your own, and I think you're ready. You have had a lot of successes lately, so keep going. Practice positive self-talk, calming yourself, deep breathing, whatever you need to do. I liked how the woman had a small card she carried, that she could refer to. It would kind of be a visual signal for her. All she would have to do is look at it and it would remind her to relax. Could work for you.You're right about the similarity between the adrenaline rush of panic and excitement.I think it is also the way we talk to ourselves. Some people can feel it and think "Yeah, this is exciting..." and others like us think, "Omigod, what's happening...?" and begin a fear reaction. AZ


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

There may be some biological/genetic reason why some people are more sensation seeking than others.And I think alot of it is how the person has learned to interpret the feelings. Excitement and fear both are driven by alot of the same chemical reactions and in most people the sensations are pretty similar. Now controlling which way you feel about something isn't going to be easy. I think some of this may have to do with whether the early experiences with fear and excitement were rewarding and forwarding or not. If you've learned that things that make you feel fluttery mean good things will happen it is more likely you'll see it as excitement. If you learned that those feeling led to bad things than I think we tend to feel panic and fear rather than excitement.I agree with being selective in how you test yourself. Setting up baby steps that you are quite likely to have sucess with is much better than taking a big step and not being able to control the anxiety. How small the baby steps need to be will vary from person to person.Remember slow and steady wins the race. Better to plod along and win in the end.K.------------------I have no financial, academic, or any other stake in any commercial product mentioned by me.My story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html


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## shyra22f (May 9, 2000)

Thanks for your input AZ and KMottus. That really makes sense about the excitement/anxious feelings. I suppose I never noticed just how close the feelings were. Maybe I can convince myself that I'm excited about going to the store?







This afternoon I went out on my own to the store and to wash the car. Near panic at the store but I worked on really noticing how I was feeling and listening to what I was saying to myself before I even went in there. Oh well.. my hands were totally shaking as I tried to press the buttons on the debit machine, for some reason when I notice that I'm shaking it makes it worse and makes me even more nervous. This paticular store is the same one that I've gone to the last few times. It's a very small pharmacy/gift store. Small steps right?So after I got out of there in a total sweat I sat in the car for a minute and really FELT how I was feeling. I tried to convince myself that those feeling weren't so bad.. is this a good thing to do? But I forced myself to the car wash after that.I'm under a bit of stress at the moment too so that could have contributed to how I was feeling today. They got me on the schedule at work from tues-fri, then the following tues and wed. That's got me a little anxious because I haven't worked for over 2 weeks now. I don't know how they think that keeping me out of there is going to help me get any better







And last time I worked I set off the alarm when I came in first thing in the morning and I'm already nervous about doing it again!







Anyways, I really like this forum. I hope more people over on the discussion side make it over here. Eric, your articles here are very informative and helpful, thanks







Oh yeah- AZ, I caught Lucinda's infomercial at about 2am. It was 'Attacking Anxiety & Depression'. That was the first time I had ever seen her on TV, the testimonials were incredible! I checked out the website for the cost and while I can't afford the program right now (would come out to almost $500 Canadian) it's something I'll definitley keep in mind!


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## BBolen Ph.D (Nov 9, 2000)

If it helps to bring someone else along, this can be a good first step. Then, make a list of trips, starting from easiest to more difficult, e.g. a walk to the mailbox vs. going to the movies (depending on what level you are at now). Then one by one try each outing. Prior to going out, visualize yourself successfully making the outing with a calm body, using deep breathing, muscle relaxation, and calming self-talk. Each time you are successful, then try the next one. If you have difficulty, see if you can break the step down into smaller steps. As for the adrenaline rush, it appears to have to do with how people appraise their inner sensations, as well as a learned tolerance for those sensations. People with panic disorder feel the heart palpitations and think that it has to be caused by something life-threatening. One method of treatment involves invoking those very sensations until the person stops fearing them. It sounds as if you are very motivated to regain your freedom. I don't know whether or not you are working with a therapist. If you are not, and you don't make much progress on your own, you might want to consider seeking some help. In any case, keep up the good work.------------------This input is provided solely for educational purposes and is not to be seen as a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Always consult a qualified professional about your personal medical needs and any questions you may have regarding this information.


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## AZmom1 (Dec 6, 1999)

Shyra,Here's a pat on the back from me.







It sounds like you are doing great. It's good to examine what those feelings really are...and know that you are reacting to thoughts, not a real danger. Learn to "under-react," such as, "Oh, it's just that anxiety again, I know it can't hurt me, and it will go away soon." Then get on with your errand. Dr. Bolen suggested visualization. This is a good technique to desensitize you to certain situations. It is used in hypnosis as well, and is very effective. My neice was desperately afraid to fly. She also suffers from panic disorder, and has since the age of 6. I hypnotised her several times, and walked her through each step of an air journey. If she would react, say at the sound of the engines going on (as I guided her through visualization), we would start over, until she could get through each step of a flight, without discomfort. When the time came to fly, she was fine. Her subconscious mind already formed a pattern of success for flying. The subconscious cannot tell the difference between the imagination and reality, and practicing your errands in your mind is just as helpful as actually doing them. In your visualizations, get comfortably relaxed, and try to use all of the senses in your visualization. Feel the temperature of the air, smell the bakery down the street, hear the church bells, feel yourself pushing the buttons on the ATM machine...you get the idea. The more emotion and senses you can evoke in your visualization, the better. This is a technique commonly used by athletes. Do you remember Mary Lou Retton from the Olympic gymnastics team. She scored a 10 on the vault. She said that she practiced visualization of that vault until everytime she visualized it, it was a 10. And she got the gold medal for it. First we have to have the thought, then the body follows.Keep up the good work Shyra







AZ


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## shyra22f (May 9, 2000)

Hi AZ,Thank you SO much for your support, it really means a lot. The visualization sounds like a great idea. I DO it but not in a positive way.. I visualize what would happen if I had a panic attack in that situation and how I would handle it. That's kind of my way of answering the "what if's". The bad thing about that I think is that I'm pretty much assuming that I AM going to have a panic attack in that situation. I hope that makes sense. I'm going to do that tonight before bed. I was thinking yesterday that I'd be really anxious tonight thinking about work but so far I'm doing okay. So the visualization would be done in an almost meditative state? I've been keeping a journal for years, and last night I really dove into the whole panic issue. All the questions and concerns I had I wrote out and answered them as best I could. Usually I just complain about it in there, but this time I kind of analyzed it and was feeling really good after 6 pages







Since my first CBT session I started a seperate journal too. I've been keeping track of dates and my positive accomplishements and what I did to get through it. I also take short notes from books and tonight I wrote in there those points that were featured on Oprah (the ones on the little card). Kind of like a study guide I guess. Well, I'll keep you updated with how things go (especially this week)Thanks again


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## AZmom1 (Dec 6, 1999)

You're exactly right Shyra, we do the visualization, but in a negative way. It is a very hard habit to break, and keeping track of your thoughts is a good idea. While noting your negative thoughts, also write down a positive on to replace it with. Then everytime you recognize a negative thought, you can easily replace it.It helps to do visualization in a meditative state, but try to keep it in pictures and imagery. For instance, for relaxation, you may picture a favorite spot, and using all of your senses, create a scene in you mind. Then choose a word that describes your special place. As you practice, eventually all you will have to do is say your keyword, and your mind will return to that relaxing place, and relax your body as well. This is a good thing to do in a stressful or panicky situation. You're doing great!AZ


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## shyra22f (May 9, 2000)

Hi AZ, Funny that you brought up the subject of noting your negative thoughts. Yesterday I had to pick my bf up from work and got there really early so I pulled out my 'Panic to Power' book to review and I read that chapter. It IS a good idea and I really worked on it today. I haven't written the thoughts down yet, but I was catching myself when I was thinking negatively and trying to replace that thought. That's a great idea too about having a special space. I'll think about that tonight at bed time. Work this week has gone EXTREMELY well. No panic attacks at all. I must admit I would get a little nervous when my coworker would leave to get lunch, but rated out of 10 I'd give that sitaution a 2. It feels SO good to be at work. I'm going to miss not being there after next week







Also this week I've been working harder on getting out too. I went to my bf's pool league last night which I was thinking about not going to because last week when I went I nearly DID have a panic attack. Needless to say, I was relaxed and enjoyed myself







I took your advice and didn't have the "I'm testing myself tonight" attitude and I think that really helped. I have plans to go out with friends tomorrow night, and I'm thinking of hitting the mall this weekend to buy some birthday gifts. The mall is going to be a BIG challenge but I WANT to do it. Wish me luck!And thanks again AZ, you're the best


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## AZmom1 (Dec 6, 1999)

Shyra,You are doing so well!! It's going to get better and better, and you will never go back to where you were. Be sure to practice relaxation often, not just when you feel a panic attack coming on. That way, you will get so good at relaxation, you will be able call up that relaxing feeling anytime.I'm SO proud of you!!!







AZ


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