# in your head or mind or body



## trbell (Nov 1, 2000)

some research to think about http://www.ibsgroup.org/cgi-local/ubbcgi/u...c&f=10&t=000611 tom


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2002)

Tom... I perused the article and I can say from first hand experience that when things go awry in our chemistry.... it can have incredibly far reaching effects... including causing IBS.As an example... just going back on an antidepressant (Celexa) has diminished my allergy symptoms by about 90%.... because it favorably transformed my brain and body chemistry. I'm going to expound on this because I know how important this is to healing. Please indulge me here, Tom.First of all, my diagnoses are as follows:Generalized Anxiety DisorderClinical DepressionBorderline Personality DisorderHypomania (a tempered version of manic-depression)PTSD (Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome)My most distinguishing behavioral disorder is the Borderline Personality Disorder. Along the lines of the URL to the article that you posted, my brain cannot overcome fear .... that is, not without medication, CBT and deep hypnotherapy with a licensed realtime therapist. Not just one of those treatments.... but ALL THREE of them.We need to know that we should not be beating ourselves up for not being able to improve our IBS with various therapies when the truth of the matter is that our brain and body chemistry is not functioning correctly. It is highly important that a correct diagnosis or diagnoses (as in plural) be made in order to effect an appropriate plan of treatment for each individual.Analogy: If our brains are not "programmed" to receive incoming stimuli appropriately, we cannot respond to that stimuli appropriately. It's like trying to receive a computer transmission that is being transmitted at 500mhz when we only have a receiver that can handle 28mhz.... if you get my drift. It isn't physiologically possible for it to happen.The same is true for a person who may have IBS that is related to a behavioral health or personality disorder. Until and unless they are able to get into appropriate treatment and effect appropriate changes in their brain and body chemistry, specific IBS treatments are not going to work.Hope this helps, Evie


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## trbell (Nov 1, 2000)

very helpful, I think.tom


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## kamie (Sep 14, 2002)

I found Evie's whole post to be most accurate and wonderfully arranged to give a bigger picture of the realities some of us have to deal with.I particularly could relate to the following statement:As an example... just going back on an antidepressant (Celexa) has diminished my allergy symptoms by about 90%.... because it favorably transformed my brain and body chemistry. _________________________________________WOW! what a statement!What an achievement.I too was able to get rid on 90% of my Allergies with a little chemical shift too!What a coincidence.I got rid of my migraines along with those horrid allergies.Yes siree those chemicals are a huge big totally underestimated key for all of us in one form or another.By the way,I'm a Holistic practitioner and totally hip to hypno and a gazillion other modalitiesbut nothing, absolutely nothing fixed my wagon like a chemical change.Yes folks I got a big ol chemical change.It's taken me almost 6 months to even begin to handle the side effects but the whole chemical experiment was so worth the ongoing effort.I HAD A HYSTERECTOMY AND ONE OVARY WAS TAKEN IN THE PROCESS.In addition to....the ever hormonal endometriosis and the ever hormonal adenomyosis and the ever hormonal cysts.Now,if that doesn't qualify for the subject of brain chemicals I don't know what does.So I'm here to raise my hand and swear that I know first hand what a shift in the balance of real chemicals in our bodies can do.Celexa, Prozac,Effexor....Estradiol? ovarian estrogen for those who don't know.....And I do believe that Celexa along with Effexor and Prozac and Zoloft and Elavil and others are the life savers for post hysterectomy womenwho are thrown into the nightmare world of surgically induced menopause.There are many women who either can't or won't take HRT and these meds do a very good job in regulating the inner hormonal furnace amoungst other things associated with hormone problems.I recently got the test that told me that even though my Estradiol is almost nothing, that I am still not technically in menopause even though I no longer have a uterus.Now is that some kind of wild or what.So in the realm of behavioral therapy I think it's wise to always understand the shoes of the patient/client and work with respect to the condition of the now.Like for me, I wanted my remaining ovary to be asleep and rather unproductive.So I've been working specifically with repressing the energy going to that ovary.There were some "holistic" type exercises that I did not do speciffically because their function is to stimulate the life force in the body, but I didn't want to stimulate the actual life force because stimulating the actual life force would wake the ovary up and let it get active and make estrogen chaos in my body because afterall, the life force is exactly what the ovary is all about and, well, when one has gone through 7 kinds of surgical hell to remove those pesky triggers one does not want to run around invoking life force to reconnect and function smoothly.So for someone like me, with a "holistic" alternative, the focus would be a bit different than the standard.Congratulations Evie on that Allergie thing.I know that when I realized my had gone away that it was an amazingly happy day that one could put on the list of peak experiences.Isn't the right distribution of chemicals wonderful?Oh well, just food for thought from over here in the land of the dark moon.Kamie


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2002)

Thank you for your kind words, Kamie. I only have a few minutes here this morning but wanted to respond to you in kind.I don't think that your remaining ovary is "asleep". The hysterctomy changed the blood flow to your pelvis... it is much less now than it was prior to the surgery. This will affect the functioning of your ovary.I still have both ovaries and 2 inches of my cervix, but I've also prematurely become menopausal because my ovaries cannot function at full capacity. It's almost as if they "know" that there is no uterus.Try some natural hormone therapy... such as natural progesterone and a combination estriol/estrone/estradiol cream. You may even need a vaginal estriol cream supplement as well.Another very important point is that when stressed, whether real or perceived, Cortisol fills your body and your estrogen and progesterone receptors are not able to utilize hormones even if they are present because the Cortisol has attached to the receptors instead.I am very interested in pursuing holistic healing at this point. Can you share your technique with me?Thank you, Evie


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## trbell (Nov 1, 2000)

where did you get that info on cortrisol? i wonder if HT affects cortisol levels?tom


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## garywest (Apr 7, 2000)

hello folks trbell essencedechat essencedechat very precise and correct "analysis"I do nto post my messages on the MAIN borad as i postthem on "alternative medicine" section on this same sitei was thinking IBS is physical only inmy case although the docs said its as we know pyschsosomatic disorder.after years of trying to "cure" IBS well i never did stick with antianxiety meds s although i always took antispasmodic meds for IBS _Clike metachlopramide , librax, levsin etcbut the "root" prob was and is anxiety , panic attacks and mild depression.i was in usa and now im in INDIA here too i was on prescription meds then i gave up!!i am on homeopathy from feb of this year and doing good so far.mental chang eis therevery less anxietypanic aatcks nonedepression very rare but not completely gonei m much calmer less agitated and anxious an dless confrontational!!physical change?i look betterweight gain like 11 lbsmeds?well whit epill sand powder i dont knwo names doc never saysanywyas restrictions:no coffeeno alocoholno spicy foodother than that diet is ok doc says eventually i can eat all foods.you might wanna check my posts under alternative medicinei must mention my doc is very experienced - 30 yrs exepriencetrbell long time no see hope allis welli will b ehappy to replymy email is fungary2001###yahoo.com hotmail is junk and messed uptake caregary in india


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Tom, the way I understtand it is when a person is stressed cortisol levels increase and when relaxed decreased, no matter what method is used to relax.


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## trbell (Nov 1, 2000)

which goes back to the question that started this thread. are the levels felt in the brain or mind or body?tom


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2002)

Tom.... Eric is correct... and I got the information several years ago from Dr. John R. Lee of Sebastopol, California who is the world's foremost (semi-retired) authority on female hormones....especially natural progesterone. We've been "mail buddies" now for at least 6-7 years. He dislikes computers and so we trade good old fashioned regular letters.... typed, not handwritten...  At one point he told me he was thinking of using me as one of the cases in his last book that he wrote, "What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Perimenopause"... but because mine was not a success story....(it seems fibroids manufacture their own estrogen after they become so big)..... he opted not to use my case, but he still writes to me on occasion. I saw him speak at the Radisson in Bloomington, Minnesota a couple of years ago.... Wonderful man with a terrific wit and flair for writing. He says he always enjoys my writing as well...  (too bad I can't make any money with it)So... just as Eric validated, when we're stressed, Cortisol attaches to our hormones receptors and even if we're taking hormones or slapping patches on, they aren't doing very much good...  Also Hormones need to be cycled.... and even stopped at certain points because otherwise our receptors become too sensitized to the hormones.I think the way that this relates to IBS is that if our brain/body chemistry is awry.... relaxation therapies are not as effective... or possibly not effective at all... because all of that Cortisol is attaching to our receptors. So it seems prudent to take a look at what is going on inside of us from a standpoint of anxiety, depression, personality disorders...or just plain stress. Often people are not open to discussing behavioral health issues because of the supposed implications and taboos.... which is total nonsense. Having and being treated for a behavioral health disorder is no different than being a diabetic and having to take insulin. And when medication can effect positive changes in our body chemistry, thereby lessening the effects of stress, anxiety or depression, and in turn making us more receptive to relaxation therapies or other IBS treatments.... it becomes a desireable mode of treatmentHope this helps, Warmly, Evie


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2002)

Gary.... Nice to meet you and thank you for your boost....I will check your threads..... glad things are going better for you... wish I could just pack up, move to India... and lessen some of the stress in my life... but I can't do that so I gotta take pills too... Happy Regards, Evie


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2002)

Tom... I wanted to address your other question pertaining to whether or not Cortisol levels can be affected by hypnotherapy. I would guess that they can.... however, the danger lies in NOT BEING ABLE TO BE RECEPTIVE TO the hypnotherapy. For example: I CANNOT be hypnotized unless I am taking one of the SSRI's such as Zoloft, Paxil, Prozac or Celexa. (I also cannot take other antidepressants without major problems.) I simply cannot focus.... I actually squirm in the chair.Over 10 years ago when I first began biofeedback training... and then eventually progressed from a one on one office setting to only the self help... I was completely unable to participate in or to practice the biofeedback techniques without the aid of Zoloft, which altered my brain/body chemistry enough that I was able to do so. Mine is a very severe imbalance... and when it goes uncorrected while I am experiencing horrific stress, I completely fall apart.... I enter into self-destructive behavior... and I lash out at people around me causing major barriers. I don't mean to do it... but at that point I am helpless to control it because my brain/body chemistry is malfunctioning on a high degree. (Remember the bees nest I stirred up here..... I've tried countless alternative treatments such as St. John's Wort, Valerian, exercise (which really IS also beneficial), meditation, religion, spiritual guidance and CBT without being on medication... all of which help some but very minimally and definitely not enough to alter my behavior. I actually do pretty well without meds when not under severe stress. The problem for me lies in that when I am in the throes of severe depression I can't see the forest for the trees....and I can be very stubborn.... that delays my medicating myself... and causes painful emotional ups and downs and considerably more stress. A personal life crisis drove me to the edge this time. I don't want for this same thing to happen to others if anything I can contribute can help them to see if they need an evaluation by a psychiatrist or psychologist to find out if they need assistance with their brain/body chemistry.It is this same brain/body chemistry that affects IBS.Hope this also helps, Evie


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## trbell (Nov 1, 2000)

I can see how cortisol can clog up the system but theoretically one would think that stress relieving treatments like ht should be able to 'unclog' it. I know there are brain scan studies that show that psychotherapy produces the same changes in the same areas of the brain that an antidepressant does.tom


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## kamie (Sep 14, 2002)

Hi Evie, The clock in my office is a bit fast so I have a moment before I go settle down with the hubby and the dogs for our favorite piece of twisted sci fi entertainment.With regards to phytohormones, I don't take those either.I've worked hands on with herbs for many many years and I even had a retail herbal/nature girl/mystical kind of store for a while.I don't do well on the big gun phytos like Black Cohosh and Soy.Actually I'm horribly allergic to Soy.Part of my personal healing therapy for my body condition has been taking all forms of soy out of my diet.I am familiar with Dr.Lees work.He has some good ideas.I don't do progesterone either.Much to my doctors amazment I don't have any dry vaginal problems at all.I attribute that pleasant little condition to the fact that I have ALWAYS used the extralight scentless olive oil as my personal sensual massage oil. Olives have a bit of phyto estrogen because they fall into the fruits with pits category.I also use patchouly, jasmine and sandalwood which stimulate the brain and work with those balances in the body.I used to take Saw Palmetto which is a bit like progesterone and also considered an anti androgen.Because of my HBP being such an issue all the time I want to have some attention paid to my adrenals.I have an appointment at the end of November with a reproductive endocrinologist.I have been looking for this kind of doctor but most of those guys just want to see fertility cases.I called a reproductive endocrineologist in my insurance directory and talked at length with his nurse.She went and asked him if he would take a look at my case and he agreed so they set me up for an appointment.I also want to ask him about the Saw Palmetto since it's an herb that has always helped my IBS situation.After my emergency surgery for a severe bowel impaction that was life threatening, my bowel kept wanting to shut down.I used large doses of Saw Palmetto to get it going again.Saw Palmetto is on the low to no toxicity leveland is largely considered an herb for male prostrate problems. However, I have recently taken it out of my supplimental regime because of the role it playes in those breast developing herbal formulas.My mother and my aunt both had breast cancer. That is the big reason I don't do any estrogen things including the phytos of which a couple I believe mimic estradiol and estradiol is the very substance that the anti cancer maintenance medication Evista controls so it won't stimulate breast tissue.So for me the revelation of the Saw Palmetto has me going back and doing a bit more research before reintroinducing that plant back into the whole healing trip.I'm hoping the endocrinologist can shed some light.I would be glad to discuss my life as a holistic healer with you privately.I have practiced a very focused and definate path for many many years.I don't really like to discuss a lot of things in depth here on a board because, well, it's just so very personal and deep.I do not have ONE technique. What I do has evolved over a 20+ years period where I was gifted with many many unique expereinces and the most wonderful people one could ever be so blessed to meet.My husband is my soulmate and my most magical partner in life and in the far off ethers.You know what I mean.Send me a PM with any questions you may have.Kamie


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2002)

Tom.... I agree with you that HT, CBT and other therapies SHOULD be able to effect the same positive changes in our brains/bodies as medication, and perhaps for some people it can... but for those of us for whom it can't, the only way to go is medication.... at least until we can get through a crisis.Even on a short-term basis, depression can be deadly.Sans medication, the other therapies do have some benefit, but when a severe chemical imbalance exists.... some of us need more.Example: My husband has epilepsy. Certainly relaxation techniques and CBT can help him to some extent. However, the bottom line is that no matter how much relation or CBT he engages in, he still has the physiological problem to begin with. Without medication, he would be having seizures constantly. This is a bit of an extreme example, but I think it illustrates my point.This is not to say that everyone with IBS must take medication for behavioral health disorders. It is saying that when other therapies such as hypno, biofeedback, CBT, holistic or other modes of treatment are not as effective as we want them to be, or in some cases not at all..... we need to look at the possibility that our IBS is being driven by a brain/body chemical imbalance that needs to be corrected with medication.Hope this clarifies. Also hope more members will read and post their concerns, experiences and beliefs related to this issue.Warm Regards, Evie


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2002)

Kamie... I have to go to work now and then dance class after that... so I will need to get back to you later this evening.Evie


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2002)

Kamie,The black cohosh and soy wreak havoc with my body as well and I avoid them like the plague I say if the herbal thing does it for you... go for it.Regarding estrogen, keep in mind that there are 3 forms of estrogen: Estradiol, Estrone & Estriol. If you use a natural estrogen cream that is mostly Estrone & Estriol and only 10% or less Estradiol.... there should be no additional cancer risk (or so the experts have told me). It's higher concentrations of Estradiol that may be carcinogenic. Natural progesterone has no carcinogenic effects. In fact, if you read Dr. Lee's books, he cites studies that prove that natural progesterone is also anti-carcinogenic.In addition, according to him, it isn't estrogen that builds bone density. All estrogen does is preserve what bone density that is already present. It is natural progesterone that actually builds bone density.I don't do real well with most herbs... the only ones I partake of (and this is occasionally) are Echinacea, Goldenseal and Peppermint....in the form of tea. I cannot take anything in a capsule form.I am allergic to Chamomile and even just the smell of Valerian makes me nauseous.Why don't you start a thread related to holistic healing? I think there might be some interest here. I know that I would be very interested in learning more about it. I already participate in similar experiences with my therapist.Appreciate all your help and information, Warm Regards, Evie


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## trbell (Nov 1, 2000)

holistic healing probably belongs in the alternate therapy forum but that distinction is somewhat hazy on the bb?tom


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## kamie (Sep 14, 2002)

Toms Post:holistic healing probably belongs in the alternate therapy forum but that distinction is somewhat hazy on the bb?__________________________________Actually Tom, I think that hazy thing is simply the nature of the creature.Many of us are ethereal and strange and we walk with a foot in both worlds where dreams and healing are a mode of therapy and self discovery.But not to worry dear one, there will be no Holistic star base here out of me (LOL)I closed my practice a little bit ago to tend to the needs of my own healing journey and personal development.If I wanted to be the grand duchess of information I would just have to make a phone call and pick up all those people who are waiting for me to come out of the cave and be a teacher and a healer once again.So right now, for me, this forum is my tool for my own healing as venting and researching and sharing and just being in the moment is very much a part of the bigger journeys of personal soul evolution.I am rather enjoying this slight vacation of being in the shadow light.It's nice to just chat sometimes.Bright Blessings,Kamie


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## kamie (Sep 14, 2002)

I also wanted to say something about one of Evies posts that is near and dear to my heart(literally)the post read:Tom.... I agree with you that HT, CBT and other therapies SHOULD be able to effect the same positive changes in our brains/bodies as medication, and perhaps for some people it can... but for those of us for whom it can't, the only way to go is medication.... at least until we can get through a crisis_________________________________________As a Holistic practitoner and the whole lifestyle that implys, I would have to say that I totally believe in the power of ones mind to influence certain things in the realm of manifest reality.However, also because of my lifes work and lifes learning and lifes life, I also know that the mind does not have total rule over everything and anything.If it did we would all be living our grandest dreams and none of us would have any problems we didn't like, unless of course we liked our problems and then well, that's a whole other ball of babble wax.ANYWAY..........................So my thoughts are this, Sometimes life has plans.Plans that we are totally unaware of. It is far too sad that far too many people view the long and enduring pain of an illness as a flaw or the product of UN-RIGHT thinking. Or that the suffering are only suffering because they don't apply some formula to the malady and get magically better.It is important to understand the true dynamic of any illness that one finds in their life.Hypnosis and visualization and reprograming the mind are but the modern day versions of magic, because what else is magic than the very things that one is taught in the development and process of making the mind the master of ones reality.So being, I can say from extensive research into the power of magic and prayer and hypnosis and neurolinguistic programming and that whole Scientology gig with the auditing and all that.That in the base core of ones ability to change and manifest there lies a very simple piece of truth that remains as costant as the north star.And that truth is......that there is, in this world, things bigger than our individual selves in all our frail granduer. And at times, at many times, in life and it's complex unfolding, there is the unknown factor of a bigger force and a bigger plan and a bigger hoo haw than one can ever imagine or control.Because if it were so simply so, then would we not be but like gods in our own image?So while I do believe in so many wonderful and magical things, it is my foot planted in the mundane sense of life that gives me guidance to know when one modality is preferable over another.The mark of a profound person is to know when proper timing and sequence and procedure apply.It is in the higher mind of healing that one can gracefully accept the time when it is simply time to take another road.There are many many turns on the road of healing.Modalities are merely tools and when one tool is no longer sufficient it becomes time to learn about another tool if only for the reason of learning as a whole in it's self.I learned a long time ago that only one thing simply does not work for me.For me, my healing journey is like a tapestry full of colors and experiences and the huge array of ups and downs that serve to hone the finer details of my own personal abilities, because I believe that if one can survive such a mystrey as IBS then one is one step closer to taming the irrate dragon by virtue of out smarting the old belly rascal.And as for those meds......yes, unfortunately some of us do need them.I for one have been given the juggling task to deal with a number of genetic issues for which our own progressive science is still grasping for answers.And, NO, the holistic bunch of us really have no better answers than medicine. It's all just one thing upon another blending mulit modalities to help our selves in the healing process.And I believe I can say this because I have seen healers and teachers and the most wonderful and knowlegable people of every sort of complexity and modality one could imagine and still, still for the individual, the journey of healing by way of personal experiencce is still as much of a challenge for those of us who have explored the great mysteries of the world, because in the reality base....... we are but human.Today I found some really interesting information out that makes me glad that I have been wise enough to know when I need my meds.My father died of Coronary disease at 48.Today I finaly saw some of my medical records from one of my recent ER trips.I had gone to the ER with yet again another belly worry.I thought my colon was shutting down.I had a lot of pain and my pulse was at 119.So being, I knew when it was time to go to the hospital.I saw that report from the ER today and it shows a blood test that was ordered.The test is called Troponin I.My test returned with numbers that indicated a myocardial injury extensive enough to conform with AMI.I'm sure all you good researchers here know exactly what THAT means.So, seeing this thread here I just had to pop in and say, that the very medicine you take for a condition that has been said to be in your head, might just play a part in saving your life.Unfortunately, this ever so important little report had fallen through the medical cracks untiltoday.And I've been wondering why I am just so tired all the time.So off I go now to solve yet again another medical puzzle linked to my genetics.I also would like to add that if it were not for the things I have learned in the way of energy and lifeforce and meditation and all that jazz, that maybe I might not be feeling even as near as good as I am today.So while my life practices do help in a sticky medical situation it is important to remember to never never take grace for granted.Hugs to All,Kamie


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## kamie (Sep 14, 2002)

P.S. Tom, You know, you are asking some mighty metaphysical questions here.The muse must be calling you.Kamie


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## kamie (Sep 14, 2002)

Evie, regarding the types of estrogen, I am studying that in additon to being the daughter and niece of breast cancer survivors.My personal research into the matter of estrogen had been one of my lifes projects because I love my mother and my aunt and my sister who shares the difficult feminine reality with me.I have read Elizabeth Vliets book. It has a lot of good information.Not information I personally necessarily agree with, but good non the less.post read:Regarding estrogen, keep in mind that there are 3 forms of estrogen: Estradiol, Estrone & Estriol. If you use a natural estrogen cream that is mostly Estrone & Estriol and only 10% or less Estradiol.... there should be no additional cancer risk (or so the experts have told me). It's higher concentrations of Estradiol that may be carcinogenic__________________________________You know, for me, and my self intuitive sense, I don't much buy into the reports that for some reason just don't sit well in my self diagnostic mind.I have found over the years, that when something does not feel right then one should hear the inner argument and give respect to the inner knowlege that is presented as our answer.There have been many a time that my self intuition has saved me from a worse physical out come.For, me personally, there just isn't enough validation of what the big scientists say about dangers and safety of any of the forms of estrogenin the body.I got more news today in addition to the heart information I just posted.Another piece of medical information that also slipped through the cracks.It would appear that one of my recent imaging tests revealed an Endometria in my LRQ.The place where I have the one and only remaining ovary.Do you know what that means?That means that ESTROGEN is feeding that Endometria and I need to possibly think about having that last piece of equipment removed.Personally, having the hysterectomy and the subsequent colon failure and my brush with death and all those things that make illness a little scary........well heck, the latest studies on the estrogen factor are simply not good enough for me.So I'm gonna tough it out.I'll go on Evista if I need bone support.Some days I just don't feel like compromise.It's a trip.... this medicine learning.....Thanks for your most thoughtful and well intentioned thoughts.I do truly appreciate them.Hugs,Kamie


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Just thought this fit this thread in regards to:Biopsychosocial Assessment Important in Diagnosis and Management for Functional GI Patients http://www.med.unc.edu/medicine/fgidc/biopsychosocial.htm


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## kamie (Sep 14, 2002)

notes from link:However, using the term mind/body/spirit helps to create a common language for patients and doctors_____________________________________________Using the mind/body/spirit dynamic is far more comforting to a person suffering from some mystery problem than finding themselves lumped into the whole bin of disorders that would be called "psychological" because over the many years of our present social structure we have been taught to assess the chronically suffering person as the hypochondriac.Additionally, as I have found out in my personal situation, that once one admits that yes, I may have had a case of the chronic anxiety all my life...that then, other important markers for a disease process gets over looked.When I first started trouble shooting my chronic pain which resulted in part from having my colon plastered to another organ and the pelvic side wall by adhesions, I was blown off by 3 gynecologists as not having a valid gynecology condition.One gynecologist noted the prescription for xanax and commented that I just had anxiety and that he was going to treat my condition as chronic pelvic pain.If I would have gone that route I probably would have lost the use of my colon because the adhesions were so bad.And, I have just received another medical report that indicates that my endometial condition which causes those adhesions to grow is unfortunately still active even though a blood test confirms that my existing one ovary is hardly producing any estradiol at all.I discussed my pain, which has very recently begun to feel like it felt a few months ago, with my new set of doctors here in the city we moved to in July.In June, I was put on some good meds for my pain and I was really relieved and totally optomistic that I was done with the worst of my problems and frome there on out it would be a progressive healing in reasonable increments.So lately when I have begun to notice this rather odd particular type of pain beginning to creep back up in my body I have been talking to my current doctors about my pelvic problems.So far, there have not been any answers even addressing the conditions that have been confirmed by imaging tests.I've been working with my pain and angst over my situation these days using all the vast areas of alternative help that I have available as the accumulation of my lifes work and knowlege.I apply the knowlege in a technical fashion specifically have designed for the clues of the process going on with my body and I also take my meds faithfully because right now my meds are at least keeping my pulse rate under 100(not by much)but at least I'm not technically tachycardic.Right now, combining modalities is what is allowing me the necessary time to find the right doctor or doctors for my particulr multi-system problems.For me it's a whole lot of bad bad genetics that seem to be cascading all at once.Ah yes..........the old biolgical clock.And we thought that only had to do with women wanting those babies!So because I do live my life in a multi modality fashion I think new terms and new understanding of the bridges we need for our health and well being are part of the key in facillitating better understanding of how all things can harmonize and become the formula for ones personal healing.And, as we all know, all good formulas for one thing or another are rarely made up of just one element.I personally am into scent and perfumes and all things relating to the olfactory passage from the nose into the limbic area of the brain.In working with that particular modality I often find that people needed very complex personalized blends for their different stages of development and healing.Because the idea is "so" in the practice and application of the aromatic and chemical therapy related to pure plant oils, then I think it is also "so" for the need for synchonicity of mind/body/spirit modalities which combine several schools of thought with out neglecting another.It is a sad day when a practitioner gets stuck in one mode over another. The value of synchronicityis beyond any words that I can express except in terms of miraculous.Yes, it would seem that miraculos things happen when all the specific and right modalities and medicines and even the personal chemistry between the practitioner and the individual are forged together in a WHOLISTIC venture of healing at it's best.Kamie


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## kamie (Sep 14, 2002)

P.S.You know, the interestng thing about heart problems is that they often sound a lot like IBS.We've all heard the stories about one person or another going to the ER thinking they are having a heart attack only to find that its an intestinal problem.....or is it?I've had all the IBS symptoms for a good while now.I go to the ER and they do the EKG and they decide my problems are not of the heart and I get shuffled off to some other department.Unless that attending doctor/doctors is wise enough to know the signs and the tests to run, one may expereince what is called a silent heart attack that sets the individual up for medical complications further on down the road.I have a friend who suffered with burping and indigestion for years. YEARS. Every one wrote it off as IBS and that he needed to learn some body stress management technigues.He had hypnosis and accupincture and chiropractice and one day he called me from the place where he was rehearsing with his band and asked me to come by and take him to the hospital because he thought he was having a heart attack.So we went and we got him in the ER and they had to put the electric shock thing to his chest to get his heart to get back into a normal rhythm that would not kill him.Well, my friend spent several days in the hospital while the doctors were trying to figure out what was wrong with him because once the attack was over he was fine.So it was by virtue of a very good cardiologist that they found out that my friend did indeed have a plethoria of IBS symptoms but, that my fiend also had a very real heart problem that is hard to diagnose.I can't remember the term, but the condition is a genetic heart malformation in which there are the electrical impulses that mis fire and rev the heart up until it simply burns it self out.They were only able to diagnose this problem by doing a procedure with a imaging machinewhere they would stimulate his heart into hyperactivity and then try various meds to control the problem.It turned out that only one medication worked for his problem.So while my friend still has his GI problems he is now also a heart patient.A couple of years ago the doctors told him that they could do surgery to burn the endings of the nerves that were misfiring and making problems.they schedulaled him for the surgery and when they got inside they saw that it was not two nerve endings at all but a whole electrically alive circular part of his heart.Since no one had seen that abnormality until they went inside to look, it turned out that they could not facillitate repair because that specific problem required a whole other type of procedure and tools and even a different surgeon who would be skilled in the type of procedure needed.So they backed out and woke him up and told him that he would be put on a waiting list for the right surgeon.So, my friend is now back on his heart meds and still burping and farting and bloating and now, since this heart thing causes physical stress he also gets bleeding hemorroids and he had an anal tear from his bowel problems.So, sometimes, those functional bowel disorders which don't have disease process cause, just might, might, be accompanied by a condition of the genetic variety.As it turned out, my friend has 2 sisters who have the same problem too and who are on the same medicine as he is on.What a medical coincidence.So while I understand perfectly the official term of the whole IBS problem, I would like to say, that just because you may have IBS it does not mean that you don't have other processes going on in the body, going on for their own totally independant reasons.However, if one truly embraces the whole Body Brain connection then in a purist sense it might be quite the challenge to remove the linked connection and then go back to the idea of separation of events and symptoms when we have worked so hard to prove the whole body correlation.At what point do the rules change?Is it one set of philosophical views for the IBS reality? or is it another set of philosophical views for the presence of an undetected malady of the disease catagoery.And if so, the what..WHAT...tells us to take our distress lightly and go ohm for an hour or to take our distress seriously and go push for some medical attention at the ER.For me, I already know my answers.I am just asking this question because I am forming some further thoughts on the body wholistic.So that's just my rambling for the moment.Kamie


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2002)

Whew! There's a whole lotta stuff here that I want to spend more time reading, thinking about and responding to... however, I am under the gun to rehearse for Sundays' concert, so I must be off for another 3-hour rehearsal.Kamie... you don't need to "practice" holistic healing here to help people. Your posts are very insightful and positive just the way that they are. I will read your posting, Eric, I'll get back to everyone here soon.


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2002)

Eric... I took a minute to scan the article and will read it more in depth later this evening. It looks very pertinent. ThanxEvie


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2002)

Kamie.... I love what you wrote:"It is far too sad that far too many people view the long and enduring pain of an illness as a flaw or the product of UN-RIGHT thinking. Or that the suffering are only suffering because they don't apply some formula to the malady and get magically better.It is important to understand the true dynamic of any illness that one finds in their life."You are a wise lady, Kamie....







I agree with much of what you believe. I also hate medication. However, some of the veteran members of this board know what happens when I don't take my medication.....







On a more serious..... I was ready to attempt suicide again. For me, medication is a necessity when the stress is great. I don't necessarily view it as a flaw.... I view it as the way my Creator made me.Conversely, I also believe that my intelligence, my talents and my zest for life are gifts from my Creator.... and I do my best to put them to good use. For example, this Sunday I am performing a lovely little dance piece about a cantankerous old woman who is gathering berries & herbs in the forest, who stumbles upon a catnip plant bearing the sign "DO NOT TOUCH". Well... being the very cantankerous old woman that she is (with emphasis on "very"), she defies the sign and partakes of the herbal treat. A metamorphasis occurs at that point and just for a little while... she is afforded the opportunity to look at life from the perspective of a feline.....







She is torn between remaining a cat.... or returning to her former human self. A child's toy is what prompts her to decide to return into the realm of humans... and she takes with her a bit of refreshed perspective.... hence... she becomes an enlightened and cheerful old woman <wink wink> It's a charming piece and I am "sandwiched" between the performances of my instructors... second from the last... which I take as quite an honor. The piece lasts about 10 minutes... the music is from the soundtrack for Don Juan De Marco .... and written by Michael Kamen... I pieced a tape together from portions of various tracks. And the piece has a terrific ending... leaving the audience with joy. It is very special to me... in fact.. that's where my newest screen name came from.... "Essence de Chat" (En Francais..... Essence deu shah... or essence of cat. There will be some important funders from Madison and Milwaukee at this concert so I've been working round the clock to perfect the moves. Technically my dance peers surpass my ability... however.... I have the ability to mesmerise an audience with characterization and I've been told... beautifully fluid movements... I know how to milk a moment for that "Ta Yah".Enough about that.... it's a very spiritual experience for me to perform modern dance. So we all have our little niches I suppose.And in keeping with the thread topic.... I would say that much of what we experience, endure or enjoy in life... has a great deal to do with our perspective... which, fortunately can be altered by brain/body chemistry when nothing else works.It could be worse... I could be wearing pink tennis shoes.



































Love, Evie


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2002)

Eric,I love this statement:"For treatment one should look at the severity of the condition, the biological and psychosocial factors that may be influencing the nature and severity of the symptoms, and let one's treatments be guided by that," said Drossman. and this:"When practicing, I use a mind/body/spirit language to communicate with patients," said Salt. Using the word biopsychosocial can be confusing for some patients, he noted. However, using the term mind/body/spirit helps to create a common language for patients and doctors. "Patients respond well to the idea," he said. "It helps them become open and receptive to therapy."In addition to being sensitive, witty and bright, my therapist, Pat, is also very spiritual as well as very human. We cover all of those bases in every session. The disorder that I have is one of the most difficult behavioral health disorders to treat. It usually requires years of CBT. Initially it begins as an organic disorder ... however much of it is also a learned behavior....a product of the environment. There are social, spiritual and physical influences as well. Pat has been well trained and she grows with me. We share a trust that I've never known. I went through 7 or 8 therapists, including psychiatrists and psychologists before I found Pat.... she is a social worker and author. She had her husband have written several books on some very important topics that we all need to read about, think about and work on changing in our lives. One of their books was touted in Pschology Today. They have their own clinic here in my hometown. In fact... I see Pat tomorrow after work and will once again engage in deep hypnotherapy in the hopes that I can make more progress.Spirituality...... the most important component of our lives.Meow........


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2002)

Kamie... after re-reading some of your messages, I still think the natural progesterone route might help some of that endometrial problem that you have. Have you actually read Dr. Lee's books?Natural progesterone is not a carcinogenic (very different from synthetic progesterone). The Endometrial problem (according to Dr. Lee) is caused by too much Estradiol circulating in your body. Using natural progesterone will temper the estrogen. It may help. I have a dear friend with whom I work who has a family history of breast cancer and who uses natural progesterone as a preventative agent (she is a medical professional). Trust me... you don't want to have the surgery if there is any way that you can avoid it.... I've been there and done that routine... and it had devastating effects on me. Email me and I'll share it with you.Hugs, Evie


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## SkinBagBecky (May 17, 2002)

Hi EssencedeChat ~~ I wanted to reply to your post a couple of doors up but don't know how to do that. Am glad you explained meaning of your username.....I've been thinking it was related to chat rooms or discussion forums somehow. Maybe I'm spending waaaay too much time on the pc, eh?







Anyway, the dance performance sounds very interesting. Good Luck and break a leg (is it allright to say that for dancing?)


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2002)

Chowchow.... The good wishes are still the same, no matter what the art, no? Thanx  Right before we go on, we all hug each other and wish each other luck.... there is "magic" in that touch. (We end each class in a circle with our palms touching... so that we can all feel the energy being emanated. It's empowering.)I would guess that you could respond to a post that is a couple of doors up in the same manner in which you responded to this last one. It doesn't matter where the post appears on the thread.Off to work and a class of student nurses this morning.Have a great day, Evie


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## RitaLucy (May 3, 2000)

It always amazes me how the medical profession wants to "segment" "fragment" the whole being. A very wise Dr. once told me "you talk your stomach as if it belongs to someone else"! I think powerful words. Yes of course there is a connection between the mind, body and spirit. To achieve balance I think is the key. So much research has been done in personality types vs. certain diseases. The body will follow where the mind takes it!


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## trbell (Nov 1, 2000)

the original question i had when I started this thread was whther something like IBS or anxiety is in the mind or in the brain? this is something that has divided psychologists and physicians (Freud was a physician) fom the beginning and Drossman is one of the few physicians who is starting to accept a more wholistic approach. i realize most people get hung up on the issue of whether it's in the mind or in the body, but i'm curious about what the average person thinks about whether it's in the brain or in the mind (which would I think include the spiritual)tom


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

I know I got spiritual on my IBS many times as I prayed to god it would stop!!!!!!! The pain for me sometimes is just not even something I can explain well on how bad it can get for me, especially in the pre remission days.On the spirit side, it reminds me of a war movie I have seen I think I posted about before, but it was a true story, ie hollywood called the "Seige of Firebase Gloria" a marine outpost in Vietnam, where some fifty thousand us soldiers were surrounded by 250,000 vietcong who were about to attack and the CO was walking through the foxholes saying " At this time it would be a good time to pray, I personally pray to Jesus, Hindu, Budda and any other head honcho as there is no such thing as an Atheist in a combat situation."I think spiritulity can play a role to help our IBS or maybe even trigger the IBS sometimes even.I believe there is a dysfunction between the brain and the gut in IBS and this entails the whole person. The brain is the master computer of the entire body however and one of the most if not the most complex systems we as humans no about in the entire universe we can study. I also don't think we have gotten all that far (although we have come a long way and its important to know that, especially recently with advanced technology) as to how much potential the system REALLY effects our health or the way the mechanisms, thoughts even, can be used to help our health.


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## trbell (Nov 1, 2000)

I tend to see spiritual as relating to the whole person or the mind and not just the brain, though?the brain is a computer in the head and there is also apparently one in the gut?tom


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## Guest (Oct 19, 2002)

So many good ideas, thoughts and feelings here... I will try to respond to each as best I can.Tom... to address the purpose of your starting this thread.... whether or not IBS is in the brain (as in physical)... or in the mind (as in psychological, emotional, or spiritual or all of those things............Let me begin by posting what my husband just said in response: He said, FAITH... faith encompasses ALL of those components. He may be onto something there?Personally I know that my IBS is worse and all of my health conditions are worse when I am not taking medication (Celexa). The question arises here as to why this imbalance exists in my life? Does it exist because I am not spiritual. I don't think so. Does my husband's epilepsy exist because he is not spiritual? I don't think so. I have a physiological predisposition to a brain/body chemical imbalance. Therefore, in my opinion, it follows that IBS is the primary result of the brain's physical functioning. Yes, I also believe that pschological, emotional and spiritual factors can have a secondary impact on IBS.Hope that answers your main question, Tom.Eric: I love your analogy... and it is "oh so true". Sometimes I beg my Creator to free me from this and many other "crosses" that I bear. He doesn't always answer me in the way that I would prefer... but He does answer me... I am in complete and total agreement with you... IBS is a brain-gut manifestation... on the physical level... regardless of emotions, thoughts or spirituality.... which... I do not deny... CAN have positive effects ..... but when the innate chemistry is screwed up.... ya gotta do what ya gotta do.... no?When I see the kind of turmoil and pain that I caused because of a physical chemical imbalance... it brings me to tears. Eric.... I can't tell you how sorry I am.... I wish I could turn back time and change what I said and did.... but I can't... so all I can do is ask your forgiveness... and move forward as best I can.So... I also agree here with RitaLucy that it is a balance of components that can effect a "cure". Each of us needs to find that "balance". There is no cut and dried treatment that is going to work for everyone... however, there are some things that are universally positive and can promote healing even in the face of the worst adversity....such as... a smile.... a happy thought.... and expression of caring or love........ a hug...... a pat on the back..... and positive words are always empowering. Ever notice the warmth that traverses your body/spirit when someone "gives" you something beautiful?When my brain/body is sick..... I cannot receive, translate or respond appropriately to all of those good things. Yup... Tom.... it's in the brain.However.... right now it is in my gut.... for about the Nth time today.One more thing... Eric.... I also agree that it is true that even good stress (such as that invoked by a positive spiritual experience) can also provoke an attack of IBS. I believe the reason for that is that the body cannot differentiate between negative and positive stress. Dr. Bolen could validate that. That concept was the first thing my biofeedback therapist told me over 10 years ago.Hugs, good thoughts, warmth, caring... and a whole lotta GAS-X is gonna help me tonite.....


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## BQ (May 22, 2000)

Tom, Real basic, average bear, non-professional opinion here: In short, I think all three are connected. I'm not sure science is able yet to tell us exactly how, if in fact 'tis true. But just an off the cuff, (pardon the pun) _gut_ guess is, all three play a role.Great posts gang. Thanks for asking the question Tom. Good weekend to all.







BQ


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## kamie (Sep 14, 2002)

Post:the brain is a computer in the head and there is also apparently one in the gut?____________________________________________Actually, I think that it's the computer that lives in the brain but it is DSL that lives in the gut.Synchronicity.It seems to be...well....what shall we call it?A matter of physic all connections?post:but i'm curious about what the average person thinks about whether it's in the brain or in the mind ________________________________________Well the average person would maybe be any of us on our most mundane hay toting days or the moments we spend reading food lables at the grocery store.I know I most certainly do feel so very average when tending to the very important matter of cleaning the toilet bowl.And as for pain? Ah yes it truly is a process that totally brings one closer to God because half the time we think we are dying.And pray?Me too.........Me and the bathroom shrine have become very good friends.Kamie


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## kamie (Sep 14, 2002)

Post: I also agree that it is true that even good stress (such as that invoked by a positive spiritual experience) can also provoke an attack of IBS. ____________________________________Oh heck, and there I was thinking about that spirituality IBS thought was like going to one of those macro veggie communal pot luck dinner's where everything is made with soy and his mutant twin brother soy.but you know that good stress thing is true too.I know that I for one can run around having way too much fun that is maybe a little beyond the capacity of my body limitations...like riding the horse at a run down a long trail and riding and riding and riding till oops! to much riding and the body goes into too much fun stress overload.Oh what the heck, I don't drink I don't smoke, don't even eat chocolate any more.I guess my only left over vice is fun.Good Stress.Kamie


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## RitaLucy (May 3, 2000)

That's a tough one Tom and I really have no idea. I think maybe it is both equally or one and then the other perhaps. I guess it is like the question what came first the chicken or the egg. Is it the mind or the brain? Does the brain control the mind? or the does the mind control the brain?


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## trbell (Nov 1, 2000)

it's really a complicated philosophical and psychological question and soe see the body and spirit as part of the mind: phenomenologists they are called. I also think it has practical day-to-day implications which is why I'm curious about what people think. It's only recently that doctors have begun to recognize the question again (Drossman) even though in other cultures or before Descartes in the west it was seen as important.tom


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2002)

I guess there is no question in my "mind"... because the physiology speaks for itself. If you experienced it, it might make more sense to you as it does to me.


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## kamie (Sep 14, 2002)

Post read: I guess it is like the question what came first the chicken or the egg. Is it the mind or the brain? Does the brain control the mind? or the does the mind control the brain?________________________________________I always think in terms to what influences which,and how that, connects with this.........And when I think about thinking in those connective ways I always come to the same question.....which came first, the chicken or the egg.Kamie


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## trbell (Nov 1, 2000)

i would think the mind controls the brain and the gut - as eric said they are both just computers in the body?tom


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## kamie (Sep 14, 2002)

Post:i would think the mind controls the brain and the gut - as eric said they are both just computers in the body?_______________________________________??? would that be a statement or a question ???


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## carolauren (Mar 14, 2002)




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## trbell (Nov 1, 2000)

both a statement and a question. I'm not interested in getting into one of these word quibble things again, but some where on the thread eric said something to the effect that the brain was the master computer, i think? (this is the question)I think it's possible to think of the brain as a computer in the mind and the second brain as a computer in the gut. (this is a statement)I see the mind as differing from both these computers. (this is an opinion)tom


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## kamie (Sep 14, 2002)

Thanks Tom, that was good clarification.I don't know exactly what Eric said, but I too think of the brain as the computer and most recently I've been thinking of the gut in terms of DSL and the way DSL does sometimes with the communication glitches.However, I too tend to have a similar opinion about the mind.your post:I see the mind as differing from both these computers________________________________________The mind is so complex that it would too simple to say that the mind the brain and the body are all the same thing doing the same stuff all the time.Yes, such things are connected.How can they not be when they are all channeling through the same physical unit.But when we come to the place of the mind it's much more broad, somewhat esoteric and still too many unknowns to make such a broad and generalized statemet.Do I believe in mind over matter?Yes.Sometimes.And then there is the ever unknown and random factor of chaotic creation into dense matter.Such is the mystery of life.So this week I had a brain-mind-matter of my own miscommunication or communicated direction just depending on what side of the fence one might sit. Here's the nutshell version.I had to go to the ER.I was having chest, shoulder, jaw pains that were getting so bad I couldn't eat.So off we go to the hospital where I arrive with a pulse of 115.So we have to wait.So I try to go somewhere else in my mind.Poof the pain gets worse.Poof the next thing I know I'm having this whole total body spasm.Poof the next thing I know I have all these hospital people yelling at me to get it together.Poof I say I can't get it together and my whole lefts side is stiff.The doctor turns out to be the grand inquisitor.She gives me dilauded which I tell her I don't want because morphince makes me very ill and crazy.So end of story?I wound up leaving the torture institution and going to another hospital for treatment for the drug she shot into my body.I was still tachycardic until late the next day even on more medication which was given to counteract the reaction my body has to Dilauded.So here's my question......At one point in the Dilauded poisoning sequence I began to loose my hearing.There was a huge pressure in my ears and peoples voices would fade in and out.Of course then I'd try to puke and that was a whole event in it's own.So anyway, at one point I found that I could only cope with the cascade of badness that was upon my body by banging my hand on the side of the bed rail.Well, I beat my hand to a black and purple mess but actually it did help the other situation going on in my head that was freaking me out with all that pressure between my ears and my inside head.So, with the moment of consciousness I had to bang the #### out of my hand, was it the mind overcoming matter or the matter overcoming my mind.Just food for esoteric thought.Kamie


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Well its starts to get very philosophical at one point.We could go the other way and break it all down to atoms and chemical electrical signals on the physiology matter part.I beleive in a way Tom, I think your talking in part about a persons spirit, yes and what that really is.On the IBS aspect, there seems to be a physcial problem in the gut, that causes the dysregulation of neurotransmitters to the brain which then malfunctions do to the signals it recieves and then it signals back to the gut, so in a way its the dysregulating chemicals of various systems that really cause the symptoms, even though there is a physical problem in the gut that causes a problem also in the brains functioning.


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2002)

The human experience is so complex that we may never know the actual facts. I can only relate based on what I have experienced. Even when my "spiritual intentions" are good.... if my mind isn't able to cooperate, in turn my body cannot cooperate. I wish it were so simple as to only have to be a spiritually sound person in order to effect my good health... but unfortunately... that is not the case.I know many truly beautiful, spiritual and peaceful people who still are struck down with physiological illness. I also know how my own body responds to medications that re-create an essential brain/body chemical balance. I am a totally different person when not taking medication. The person that I am without medication is a terror.... not because of weak character or lack of spirituality..... because her body chemistry will not permit her brain to behave appropriately.So I guess I am leaning in Eric's direction here.My offering for what it's worth.(Just for the record, my brain isn't even capable of discussing philosophy unless my serotonin levels are adequate and normal from being treated with antidepressants.)Warm Regards, Evie


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

This is a really good website on this.The Body/Soul ConnectionHealth and Healing for the Mind, Body and Spirit http://www.mindbodymed.com/index.htm


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2002)

Thanx for that one, Eric.... I am sure that I'll spend lots of time perusing that site... and I'll get back to you on it soon.Warmest Regards, Evie


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2002)

I thought this was good enough to post here from the URL that Eric posted:"How do we mobilize our body's self-healing abilities? The most important step is to take an active role in getting well. We must participate in our own healing, and not rely solely upon a doctor's prescription pad. On a physical level, this means seeking out information, second opinions and even third opinions if necessary. It means making lifestyle changes and exerting the personal discipline necessary for lasting growth. On an emotional level, this means processing our painful emotions, releasing old resentments, finishing unfinished business and finding a place for forgiveness. This emotional work frees the body to function more efficiently, helping to mobilize our internal healing system. Most importantly-on a spiritual level-we must always remember that we are more than our illness, more than our pain, more than our limitations. We all have a body-which is limited-and a soul-which is limitless. Even when a cure for physical illness is not available, healing is always possible. Healing is that which makes us whole, that which helps us to reach our fullness of expression and purpose in life. Healing is a quality of the soul that allows us to come to terms with the limitations of our body and find some sense of emotional and spiritual peace, wholeness and meaning, even in the face of our very real physical pain and discomfort. In understanding the body/soul connection, we come to realize that our body teaches us what we need, especially in terms of nourishment, rest and exercise. But our soul teaches us how we are needed-how we can take our pain, our trials and our losses in life and "use" them to help make ourselves more loving, more compassionate beings. In so doing, our soul teaches us to rise above our own personal obstacles, limitations and trials in life and reach out to help others who are in need. This is how we transform our personal pain into a promise of hope for ourselves and for others."This is an accurate and beautiful excerpt, Eric. Thank you 







Evie


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