# For Chrisgeorge



## trbell

Anybody else who wants to argue about this one can read the article instead of arguing about abstracts but I thought I would post this http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php...c;f=10;t=000787 as it's new and just came to me via email - don't worry, it's a coincidence, not an 'attack'. Since Mike said we should learn from each other rather than fighting, what can I learn from this, chris?Bada


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## chrisgeorge

Well Bada,Just down the hall, Dr. Elvira Lang, professor of Radiology and Medicine at Harvard Medical School was putting out a paper suggesting that hypnosis is extremely effective in controlling pain during surgery. So this tells me two things 1. Obviously there's a lack of communication at Harvard and 2. Warhol was right about the 15 minutes of fame?Of course,as you and I know, it does boil down to grant monies!


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## trbell

So it is possible for researchers to disagree? often that's how scienc advances, I think. Were you able to read the article?Bada


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## chrisgeorge

Bada,Yes I read the article and disagreement is fine between researchers. But you know that some company sponsored that study. It would be more interesting to see the reason behind it.Back in the 60's and 70's, researchers J.R. & E.R. Hilgard (I believe both MD's) published quite a few research articles on pain and the controlling aspect with hypnosis.Of course if you want to go back further, I believe it was John Elliotson MD in the mid 1800's that introduced hypnosis without anesthesia into surgeries and had a 50% success rate as compared to 30% of that day.Finally, maybe two decades ago, hypnotists to prove to their subjects that they were "in hypnosis", would push a pin or needle into the subjects arm, saying "Nothing I do or say will harm you...feel no pain". Lawyers stopped that!!


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## trbell

Yes, and i know psychologists in the past have done some things that wouldn't be considered ethical today. What i fund intresting in the study was that as it was not against hypnosis only the idea that hypnosis adds anything to basic techniques such as relaxation. i think it's related to the question eric brought up for us.Bada


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## Guest

I don't disagree with what this article says, but I will say that repeatedly engaging in positive,relaxation therapies sort of "sets the stage" for being able to relinquish our hold on pain... if that makes sense? It's one thing to consciously say to yourself... I don't want to feel pain.... it's quite another to reinforce your subconscious with postive messages that work to your benefit even when you aren't consciously telling yourself that you don't want to feel pain.I know I'm out of my league here professionally, but I also know that I trust my own insight as well as my feelings when it comes to healing my own body.... and my opinion is that self-hypnotherapy reinforces positive feelings which reinforce pain control.Evie


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## trbell

We're here to learn from each other, Evie, and there are no experts. I know I'm being confusing but in general I only go into 'expert' mode in response to someone else acting the expert.I think the question chris and I are tossing around is whwether there is anything more to hypnosis than relaxation and I think your observations about self-hypnosis are relevant.Bada


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## Guest

Should we not consider the element of improved focus & concentration as well as the relaxation aspects of hypno?As I've mentioned before on other threads, I experience a form of cognitive dysfunction which I think is related to fibromyalgia.... but when I don't understand something, I am intelligent and intuitive enough to still get the answers that I want. Sometimes that may appear flippant, when in truth I am just using what power I do have to get the information that I need and want. I hope that makes sense? I often can't follow anything more than two-dimensional concepts. When that happens, the other side of my brain (the artistic side) kicks in and I start being creative....







I apologize for at times appearing to be so demanding, but it may be a way that I instinctively use to survive when I can't understand any other way?If you guys can put up with my intrusive questions, then I think I can put up with your professionalism.Fair?And yes, I learn from you and Chris and Eric and Nikki and B.Q. and everyone here... every day....in every way... and I hope that you learn from me as well.Evie


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## trbell

Why not ask Melissa about fibro and ask her if there's somebody she can refer you to there? Bada


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## trbell

Is your improved focus and concentration from self-hypnosis? Is this self-hypnosis or relaxation?Bada


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## AZMom

Bada, how do you call yourself a therapist and NOT know that there is a difference between relaxation and hypnosis?







Relaxation is...well we all know what relaxation is...it is NOT hypnosis. Hypnosis is an altered state of consciousness where the conscious mind is moved to the side and the subconscious takes over. The conscious mind is always there to pop back in if need be, ie. baby cries, fire alarm goes off etc. If you have ever been in a state of hypnosis, you know when you have come out of it. In hypnosis the therapist can speak directly to the subconscious mind rather than have to do it through the conscious mind which edits information. While in hypnosis the subconscious mind accepts what it is told as fact and change can take place. Relaxation is not hypnosis. Hypnosis is not relaxation. AZ


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## AZMom

In hypnosis one does have a hightened sense of awareness. Basic stuff Bada. Again I ask, why don't you know this if you call yourself a psychotherapist?AZ


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## trbell

please read the article before attacking. Thanks/Bada


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## AZMom

I read the article. Not impressed.


> quote:Treatments included imagining a pain-protective glove, relaxing variousmuscle groups, picturing a warm summer day and reciting statements like:"I'll make the pain less severe when it comes."


If this is an example of their hypnotic technique no wonder it didn't work. One of the most basic rules of hypnosis is that it must use words in the present. "I'll (I WILL) make the pain less severe when it comes." will not work. The subconscious is literal, and will understand the pain will be less severe at some point in the future.AZ


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## AZMom

I feel like attacking. I don't like what this board has become, and you're the reason. I'm with Nikki on this one. This board has become the BADA show.AZ


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## JackieGian

Who is Melissa?


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## chrisgeorge

AZMom,This has not become the BADA show. But what I see is a caring individual posing questions to keep this forum alive and interesting. Sometimes I feel Bada knows the answers to the questions he posts.Why can't we all start moving forward here? (It's a rhetorical question, folks).JackieGian, Melissa Roth is a hypnotherapist and R.N. that teaches and practises in the U.S. Her "specialty "is working with IBS and Fibromyalgia.


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## JackieGian

So what makes her the "go to" person?As someone who's been on this board for over a year -- yes it has become the BADA show. Thanks for putting words to how I've been feeling AZMom. In my view Tom has been trying to harrass Eric off this Board for as long as I've been here.


> quote:Sometimes I feel Bada knows the answers to the questions he posts.


Yes, that is exactly the point. I do not like feeling as though I am some psychological experiment Tom is conducting. He poses a question or theory and then sits back and watches the fall out. Then when someone asks him his opinion, he throws up his hands and claims not to be an "expert". The reason some of us are having a problem "moving on" is because we do not like the path this forum is taking. Have you noticed the drop off in posts here? Actually it's been happening over the past several months when as soon as someone came on for advice, the thread degraded into a battle of therapies. Tom keeps blaming Eric for that, but I have a different view.


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## Nikki

I read the article too and am not impressed either Azmom.I am pretty sure that my improvements with my IBS are not from Relaxation, although that is obviously an added bonus, less stress = less symptoms, but i am also able to leave behind, or ignore- gosh i can't explain it, my anxieties realting to it. When my stomach is griping me now, i still go out, i still do my lectures, go to work etc. I don't let it hold me back. I know i will be ok at the end of the day.Im not explaining myself very well, i feel more comfortable with my body. If that makes sense.


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## trbell

is this board about Bada or is it about attacking Bada?I've apologized several times and want to move on but i keep on getting attacked.bada


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## JackieGian

Tom, YOU are the one making it about you.


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## trbell

jackieGian, When I am put down because I'm disabled, stupid, paranoid, a psychologist, and the number of other things i have been called, i start to think it is about me. it's kind of ironic that a bb for people with IBS should become famous for attacking people who have IBS?Bada


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## JackieGian

Ya know Tom, I've been watching the exchanges between you and Eric for over a year now and I'll give you my impressions. There is no doubt that Eric is a very strong advocate for Mike's tapes, which is understandable considering how they basically gave him back a normal life. Can he be close minded to other therapies, YES.However, and this is a big however. I never perceived his responses to you as attacks. My perception was that you attacked his character, the validity of Mike's tapes (which he took personally), and his extensive research and knowledge of IBS. Eric never claimed to be an expert, but you kept claiming he did. Every time he disagreed with you, YOU attacked HIM, by claiming that HE was attacking YOU.Every time Eric had a disagreement with a new poster, you jumped on board trying to form some kind of alliance (to borrow a term from Survivor) to drive him off the board. You were finally successful with chrisgeorge. Congratulations!Now, take my little psycho-analysis for what it's worth, because I am NO expert.


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## trbell

JackieGian and AZmom, i don't want to inmclude you in the above reply as the namecalling has been limited to eric and Nikki as far as i recall but I do have to ask since you both mention it, if you are threatened because I'm a psychologist? It's okay if you are as many people are and as i think I've said, we are not perfect.Bada


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## Nikki

LOL! Threatened because you are a psychologist? I doubt that somehow. You are not a very professional psychologist. Are you a practising psychologist or you just have the degree?


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## JackieGian

> quote:but I do have to ask since you both mention it, if you are threatened because I'm a psychologist?


Are you serious? Umm, NO, I really don't care what your profession is.Are you threatened because we see through your smoke screen?I wonder why you keep claiming to be just an IBS sufferer who is not on this board as a psychologist, but you bring it up your profession at every turn. Hmmmm!


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## trbell

Nikki, that's the kind of professional slander that eric has been guilty of and tat he is being sued for. I still haven't gotten an email from you and I think that speaks for itself. In a mor adult contezxt, jackieGian, there was some purpose in my question. if there is some truth to the idea that my being a psychologist (and ou and AZmomom brought it up on this thread) it would be a reason for me to leave the forum that i could live with. I've actually discussed this with jeff and Dr. Palsson. this is more legitimate, at least, than leaving bcause I'm disabled or because I don't agree with eric 100% as i see that others now seem able to deviate from the party line.Bada


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## trbell

AZmom, I appreciate your comments on the article. I'm skeptical myself and tend to agree with Chris on the issue but i did post it to gt feedback. i realize it's only an abstract on the intrnet and was hoping someone had been able to read the whole article.Bada


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## Nikki

Well, whatever Tom. I will not email you. I see no reason to. I have nothing to discuss with you that can't be done here considering it is a battle groud already.What has Dr. Paulsson got to do with this forum anyway?


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## trbell

yes, Nikki, i know you won't email me. i just thought it was appropriate behavior for a moderator? That's probably why eric won't respond to me either. He has an interest in making the disagreements public?To spell it out for you, I have discussed with both jeff and Dr. Palsson the issue of whether my being a psychologist was too threatening to people in the forum and whether it would be better for people if I didn't post because of that. In real life it's the same reason why often professionals don't join support groups.It's pretty clear it threatens you and eric and possibly others.Bada


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## JackieGian

Tom,The only reason I brought up your being a psychologist, is because you did.If you didn't keep constantly mentioning it, I'm quite sure no one else would either.


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## trbell

read back through the thread. it's not a bad thing and I understand why many with IBS might not like psychologists. it's okayit's actually not just this forum but other places on the bb I've been able to be a poet it's just that herethings come up about research (like posting abstracts without even reading the articles) or recomendations for treatment are made by 'experts' rather than just sufferers that I don't think are best for people. in other words I'm fine with not being a doc as long as there aren't others who wannabe internet docs.bada


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## JackieGian

Tom,With all due respect, WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?What's not a bad thing? Your being a psychologist? I really could not care less. I'm beginning to think you are the one who thinks it's a problem, if so, STOP mentioning it.


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## Guest

Tom, I wonder sometimes if you might feel defensive and perhaps that may be why you sometimes post as you do at times.... but if you do feel that way... I think it is perfectly understandable. Let me ask this question, then, of others on this forum:Would it make any of you happy to deprive Tom of the support that his board provides to him in efforts to vindicate Eric or yourselves?As I see it, we are all deserving of the benefit of the doubt.And if I may, I would like to congratulate Tom on continuing to be as objective as he is, in spite of how so many seem to be targeting him. I would say that is a definite sign of maturity and intelligence.Can we give him a break here please? Enough is enough. There were times when I thought Tom was a total ass.... but then I realized that it was really I... me... myself... who was the ass. When all he really did was help me to find my way out of the hole wherein I kept blaming others for everything instead of looking to myself for the answers.Look... I like Shawn Eric just as much as everyone else here seems to..... but I refuse to take sides and I refuse to participate in lamblasting anyone.It's time we started forgiving and working together.Evie


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## trbell

I think it would be nice if there was a moderator who could turn the forum into a support forum rather than and attack forum and allow different opinions to be expressed in an adult way.For my own part I do take responsibility at times for saying things personally to eric rather than discussing them. I have apologized I think but apparently it was not enough?I also have to admit I do carry some anger and hostility towards him for the things he has called me over the years. I also doubt that he is ever going to be able to acknowledge these things and apologize so i really don't think that's resolvable. Bada


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## trbell

let me add acouple of things to forestall future attacks:I know it's jeff's bb but I think he would be open to suggestions.I wouldn't want the responsibility. Most of us are adults.It could be a shared moderatorship. eric clearly has strengths in providing and sharing information.It shouldn't be based on expertise. it's arguments about which method is best that leads to most of the trouble in this forum.I would suggest somebody like Mark as he has some experience with support groups but I'm not sure he feels comfortable coming back to the forum.BadaNo, Evie and I are not in cahoots on this even though we are in agreement I think?


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## Nikki

1)Too right! I wouldn't want to see you given the resonsibility and would probably leave rather than see you the moderator of this forum. It would turn into even more of a battle ground than it is now.2) Who is Mark? Surely if Mark was a regular attender here, having been here for some time now i would know who this user is.3) The only reason people feel uncomfortable being in this forum is because of what you do to it. I don't understand WHY you can't see this.4) Have you noticed that since you started the stupid charade, nobody wants to post here anymore? Where is BQ? Where is nmwinter? More importantly where is Eric?This forum was not about yuo trying to score points off eric, or to try and prove him wrong. Yet you have taken it upon yuorself to phase out one of the most dedicated people on the entire forum. YOu may not have always agreed with what he said, but you never can! You seemed to take great pleasure in disagreeing with everything he said, making people doubt him. YOu have a lot of answer for Tom, and quite frankly, no, i don't think sorry is good enough.


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## Guest

I hesitate to be the one to point out the obvious, but I've noticed there has recently been considerably more activity here on this forum.Yes, Tom, I do agree that we are all adults and can interact respectably with each other, provided we all take responsibility for our own words and actions and that we further try not to take each and every individual post too personally. We can also agree to disagree at times, which oftentimes makes for good discussions.I like Bonniei's CBT thread.Evie


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## JackieGian

> quote:Would it make any of you happy to deprive Tom of the support that his board provides to him in efforts to vindicate Eric or yourselves?


Eric does not need vindication! And I am certainly not looking to deprive Tom of whatever support he gains from the board. I just wish he would stop dragging Eric into almost everything he posts.


> quote:in spite of how so many seem to be targeting him.


With all due respect Evie, no one is "targeting" him. HE keeps bringing it up.


> quote: I think it would be nice if there was a moderator who could turn the forum into a support forum rather than and attack forum and allow different opinions to be expressed in an adult way.


Case in Point! I'd like to see ONE day go by without Tom somehow giving a backhanded slap at Eric. Then maybe we could all "move on".


> quote:I hesitate to be the one to point out the obvious, but I've noticed there has recently been considerably more activity here on this forum.


Yes, Evie, and have you noticed that 95% of it has been negative?


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## trbell

yes, we can move on when eric apologizes. i may not have been direct about it but it hurts to be called stupid, paranoid, angry, depressed, disabled by IBS, etc., etc.,Bada


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## chrisgeorge

Hey Folks.No one is going to apologize, this forum will move forward, and lets not bring up the past anymore.I'm tired (as everyone else is) in hearing "I'm not being negative or Let's move on" BUT ---- then we go back into it.Let today be day 1. Fresh start, OK ? Please !And if nobody likes this forum the way it is - there's others. Hate to see you go, but good luck and come back to us once-in-awhile.So how's the idea of Bonnei's new thread coming along?


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## trbell

i think we might need a moderator that can hold down the personal attacks?Bonniei's discussion is going great guns. maybe you or AZmom could do one on hypnosis.I've realized what was sticking in my craw and making me a little cantakerous and also realized I'll never get an apology.So let's move on.Bada


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## JackieGian

Tom, One last time, Eric has not been here for days. Are you going to hold the rest of this board hostage to your refusal to let it go until Eric apologizes? As you said before MOVE ON! YOU are the only one who can make the decision to do so. You are letting Eric control your behavior. I can't believe that is healthy.


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## JackieGian

Oh, I'm sorry, did I offend you by responding to Tom's post?


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## chrisgeorge

Hello? Hello?? Does anybody read these things. Day 1 and counting!!


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## Nikki

Tom, Eric is not going to apologise because there is no need to. FOrget it and move on. Jackie said how i am feeling. Its the backhanded slaps at eric that are so tiring. In fact, its doing my nut.We do not need a new mod if everyone quits with the negetivity.This means you too Tom even though you think its nothing to do with you.Nikki


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## chrisgeorge

Ignored, move on.


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## trbell

To explain again as i have been accused of being confusing: i realised what was behind what appeared as backhanded slams (a tradition i learned from this forum by the way) and can state them directly. eric has never apologised for what I as a patient saw as inappropriately diagnosing me not has he ever apologized for the many names he has called me. He is not going to do so but if it comes up again I can be direct about it so it's not a probem anymore, even if directness like this makes my IBS worse. is this understandable?This doesn't mean that i have a problem with hi coming back to the forum or resuming his title again. it just means I will call a spade a spade. by the way, one of the usual rules in real support groups is that what is said there stays there. this forum might or might not want to adopt this 'rule' but it means no email or phone conversations about what he said, she said, etc.Bada


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## JackieGian

> quotene of the usual rules in real support groups is that what is said there stays there. this forum might or might not want to adopt this 'rule' but it means no email or phone conversations about what he said, she said, etc.


AMEN to that! Sometimes I think the PM function may not be worth it. There is so much back channel stuff going on throughout this entire board it's ridiculous. I gather the purpose of the PM initially was private support between two people. Unfortunately, it has turned into "what he said, she said".


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## trbell

Maybe with this penpals thing jeff might let the PM thing die? It's like email in that it can be a convenient thing but it's real open to abuse.Bada


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## eric

I have been working none stop because someone has been sick and I was filling in for them. I have two jobs, a girlfriend, a kid, a very sick father and a life to live.No I am not going to applogize to Tom, he needs to get a life off the bb and get over me and I have never done anything to him I even tried to help him in the past, that he didn't bring on himself. He has lied, I kick him off the forum, I never did that, he has lied I diagnosed him, I never did that either. He has lied I blamed him that Mike's tapes didn't work as well and how wrong is that since I have helped so many with them and the few that have had issues, he would have to be the only one I did that to, but I never did, he just believes it to be true, like many errors he has made over the years, I am tired of it big time and he has applogized more then 7 times and then goes right back to doing it again, because he cannot move on. I even tried to ignore him, and he kept it up and also send tons of emails to people to critize me as well there to doctors and to Jeff and Heather. Then says I do that. Give me a break.Dr Bolen also did not leave the forum because of "expert Opinions" she probably left because it lost its peacefulness and perhpas was not happy with certain professionals here. So did Mike, who also pulled his support because of it. But while they were both here, they supported me and what I was doing and the information I was supplying, because they told me many times. Of course Jeff never emailed me on any of this, until Jeff steps in to moderate and work on the forum being peaceful and accurte again, its a crying shame how its turned out. I know for a fact a lot of people are not posting here now, because a lot are all emailing me.This forum was fine until certain people ruined it, because they can't control themselves. It does take two to argue, but it only takes one to start it and keep it going. How many professionals really do this online, with this kind of behavior? They don't because its unethical. I never diagnosed him ever, how is that even possible, I suggested he get a sitz marker test as he emailed me in the past and said he had diver, the sitz marker test is the gold standard for constipation problems and since he has diver it is *possible* he has a slow motility problem, that's not diagnosing him, that is explaining there is a test for it, for a more accurate diagnoses.Tom, called himself stupid then said I said that!It also was never about the "right methods" either, the right methods are only gut directed or gut focused HT for IBS patients, as far as the experts are concerned, and I talked to quite a few of them in person all the time. That was the point I was making from the begining, but Tom has been confused about it for a while now it seems. I never compared Whorewell's or Palssons, or any other true IBS experts treatments for IBS, they are all good and all for IBS.Or the you learned it off the internet cracks, I go to GI meetings in person on IBS and the latest research, I read and post the CME's in medscape on IBS when they come out, or information from UCLA, UNC, IFFGD, Mayo or other accurate sources and yes there is a lot of excellent inormation on the internet. I also get tons of IBS information in real time from the doctors as well as from their publications and working with them. But he's knows this and has for a long time.Or have I ever said I was an expert, I have never once said that!!!!!!!!!!!!! But Tom, uses it to attack me when ever he can.I am a sufferer of over thirty years who has learned a lot and gone a long ways with it all, I am not an expert and never said I was and yet in one vein he say's experts should not argue treatments then goes and does it as an expert, which is something else also, one minute he is an expert, the next he is just on here as a sufferer? What is up with that? You either are or your not.My signature is accurate and he should have I am a physcologist in his and act like one.Then he posts I know nothing about neurotransmission or the immune system ect, then says the experts posts I put here are wrong and I don't know what I am talking about. Or he posts abstrats he gets completely wrong, that's what a lot of this is about, damage control. I am tired of what he makes up and then believes is true, I am tired of him posting all the negative anger he releases here, frankly I think it is because he doesn't have anywhere else to go with it or doesn't want to deal with it. I don't believe in being attacked and then having to applogize for it 7 times, or this attack applogize and everything is okay over and over again, there is something wrong with that as well.Most people here have seen he just keeps going and going and I haven't even been around, nor do I feel like posting here myself, as just looking at the forum is depressing now, after seeing what it could do and how it helped in the past. Now its about blame and anger, and that is from the so called experts on here now which I believe is truely unprofessional. I am not an angry person, unless driven to it, like I have been here. I was helping here years before Tom was here and the forum was doing fine and we talked about everything and there was not a cencorship to information either, but a discussion on some important facts and CBT and HT for IBS. I only deleted three threads in four years and they weren't about cencorship of accurate information.They were all about negitivity however and a lack of respect for people doing treatments on the forum here.I have also decided to lodge a formal complaint with the American Physcological Association. Which is not something I want to do or would have done if he got over it, but this is to the point of obbsession in my book. If I counted how many times he brought me up in the last twenty of his postings, while I haven't even been here.I know this post is contributing to the mess, but I am going to say it anyways and then I am done. I am going back to ignoring Tom period, its seems to be the best way for me to deal with him. He can lodge is little and loud complaints all he wants to and maybe he will someday relaize, life is to short and its not helpful and is hurting others by chasing them off the forum where they have come for real help not aruguements, but discussions. Not the Tom arguement show. Maybe the forum would be best with no experts here perhaps, only sufferers trying to actually get better and live life and create harmony and positive emotions as oppose to negative ones? Peace and health to those trying to understand IBS and to get better.I also will applogize to the group for the role I have played in anything negative on this forum, that is certainly not what I am personally about, but yet driven to here. But I will stand up for what I believe and know to be right and speak my mind, to many IBSers get shafted all the time and to many remain silent sometimes when they should speak out. Its an understatement that I am disappointed in looking at the forum right now, to see something I personally worked very hard at to create and support, falling apart and not helping people like it could be, because of a couple people who cannot control their actions or themselves.Tom, so you know the other thread was not a question really, it was a point, so I don't need to respond to it, nor start more with you personally, as I have said to you before, I am through with it. I will however, post when I see blatantly inaccurate information here, regardless of who posts it.


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## Nikki

Well said Eric. I'm with yuo and will support you all the way. Email me if yuo need any help.


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## trbell

the blame game continues.bada


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## trbell

sorry, i may not have been able to get past the forst couple of lines and coudn't do jutice to the rest of the excuses and blaming. My excuse is that I'm disabled by IBS so I'm not as patient as I was.As chris said i think it's time for the forum to grow up, but as far as I'm concerned you're welcome to come back anytime you're not too bus with your own bb. the informatio you provide is valuable.Bada


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## trbell

I've given this a little more time and decided I'm going to accept your apology as it stands. I have IBS, too, and I know how hard it is for us to take responsibility and stop looking for people to blame. I'm also accepting it for the good of the forum.I assume this means that you'll stop spreading your gossip about how I've picked on you for years?I hope it means you will stop targeting people who disagree with you.Unfortunately, I can't speak for Chris, but think he's interested in the good of the group and might listen to a more appropriate apology if you can give it without blaming.Bada


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## eric

Tom, IBS is not an excuse for bad behavior and lies.


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## chrisgeorge

OK Guys,lets not go there, again. OK?


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## JackieGian

Well, I'm with chrisgeorge on this one. BOTH of you cut it out! This is just disgraceful.


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## trbell

yes, let's move on. sounds like the backchannel slander is going to continue, but let's move on.Bada


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## Guest

How about we start by implementing a ground rule?No one can say anything bad about someone else's character or past.How's that?


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## trbell

I thought you started a list awhile back?Bada


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## trbell

It might also help to get a good definition of slander and a way of distinguishing personal attacks from disagreements about issues?Bada


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