# Is Homeopathy quackery or does it work?



## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

I was always extremely skeptical of homeopathy. Especially after reading some of the attacks on it. I know a particular person here thinks it is utter fraud. However, upon much closer examination and through exposure to it from a friend, my mind has been opened somewhat.The principles behind it seem completely beyond belief. Almost like something from witchcraft but I have recently been challenged to several tests and I was shocked by the outcome. I consider myself to be a person who is not easily fooled and not very suggestible.Could there be something operating at the sub-atomic level? Things that we do not know about as of yet? I think it is a big mistake to say that it is a 100% fraud. The british journal, Lancet, has published several studies showing that it is effective beyond that of a placebo.I do not think that it is a cure all but I wonder if it could help with any of our symptoms. has anyone experienced any luck with this method?


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Can you give us references to the articles from Lancet. Homeopathy is big in India, where I hail from.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

While some homeopathic remedies are nothing but water (or lactose pills or whatever they dilute it in) some are adulterated with allopathic quantities of herbal or OTC drugs so it can make it hard to know if X worked because of "memory water" or from the drug level of pseudophedrine that was in it (for example). The ones diluted until there cannot be anything but the diluted thing are considered to be the most potent (and often they tell you not to take high dilutions on your own...you must use such potent things in a superviesed situation with a practioner) but at least some OTC remedies may have high enough quantities of stuff in them there could be some effect (30X or 25X dilutions cannot have anything left in them, but you do see 3X or 6X and depending on a variety of things those could be working through standard explainable herbal/drug methods rather than dilutions....after all if you take something that is 6X the dose needed and dillute it 6X you are at a 1X dose...I don't know how some of the OTC are produced and what the real level of things in them is)The placebo effect can be a funny thing and depending on the conditions you get a placebo can make a big difference in how effective it is. I worked for a while in a clinical trial unit and they have some totally allopathic doctors who cannot be used in placebo controlled trials because their bedside manner tends to make them way to effective at placebo cures.Some thing that are not effective in large trials may show up effective against placebo in a small trial. Usually the level that is set for "effective" is one that will occure 5% of the time by random chance alone. That tends to effect small trials more than larger ones.That can make interpreting studies difficult.Were these 10 placebo 10 treated type studies or 1000 placebo 1000 treated people type studies??K.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

OK here is the "meta-analysis" of homeopathy from Lancet and the conclusion is a bit wishy-washy overall.


> quote: The results of our meta-analysis are not compatible with the hypothesis that the clinical effects of homeopathy are completely due to placebo. However, we found insufficient evidence from these studies that homeopathy is clearly efficacious for any single clinical condition


Lancet ArticleThere is an errata for this article...I'm going to see if I can read that and see if it was something that changed the conclusions ..K


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Then there is this article which is a meta-analysis of the meta-analysis papers on homeopathy.







I just find that funny









> quote: Br J Clin Pharmacol. 2002 Dec;54(6):577-82. ï¿½ï¿½ A systematic review of systematic reviews of homeopathy.Ernst E.Department of Complementary Medicine, School of Sport & Health Sciences, University of Exeter, 25 Victoria Park Road, Exeter EX2 4NT UK. E.Ernst###exeter.ac.ukHomeopathy remains one of the most controversial subjects in therapeutics. This article is an attempt to clarify its effectiveness based on recent systematic reviews. Electronic databases were searched for systematic reviews/meta-analysis on the subject. Seventeen articles fulfilled the inclusion/exclusion criteria. Six of them related to re-analyses of one landmark meta-analysis. Collectively they implied that the overall positive result of this meta-analysis is not supported by a critical analysis of the data. Eleven independent systematic reviews were located. Collectively they failed to provide strong evidence in favour of homeopathy. In particular, there was no condition which responds convincingly better to homeopathic treatment than to placebo or other control interventions. Similarly, there was no homeopathic remedy that was demonstrated to yield clinical effects that are convincingly different from placebo. It is concluded that the best clinical evidence for homeopathy available to date does not warrant positive recommendations for its use in clinical practice.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

I have tried homeopathy several times over the last 8 or 9 years and for the most part it was a big bust.however, the sinus medicine seemed to give relief on a consistant basis. I found that to be very odd. But I dismissed it becasuse the effect only lasted 30 minutes. The product is from NOVA--one of the largest suppliers. i doubt they would contaminate or add OTC drugs to trick us. they are FDA regulated meds.However, now I am starting to experience something from my asthma medicine. could be a placebo response??????However, I am very intrigued with this idea that these medicines could be operating on a sub-atomic level. We have really only scratched the surface of our understanding.I think that studies can be inconclusive based on the complexity of a person's problems. Usually multiple systems are malfunctioning and homeopathy can not be expected to just make everything go away in a couple of weeks. that is unrealistic.but could it offer some assist???????


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## Twocups424 (Mar 26, 2002)

can we talk English here?


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

I know the stuff I quoted is kinda jargony because it is scientific writing...but it is all English.The 10X (X = TIMES like in times sign...multiplication that sort of thing....) etc stuff is homeopathic jargon and refers to how many times the stuff is diluted. You take extract of thing that causes the same symptoms and dilute it then dilute it again however many times until you get 6X or 30X one you get past 23X or so there is nothing left of the orginial extract of whatever(avagadro's number...but that ain't english so I won't talk 'bout it no mo')meta-analysis is when you don't do any original research yourself, what you do is look up all the papers on a subject (like homeopathy or testing Q drug for W disease) and look at them. Usually you set a criteria for what papers will be accepted into the meta-analysis and which will not, and of the ones you let in you rank them on how well done they are.Then you process things to get the overall how well does Q do. Often times you get some studies where it worked and some where it didn't and meta-analysis is a way to get at the overall is Q worth doing or not.Anything else that needs translating??How about this..."memory water" is one of the theories about how the 30X stuff can work even though the original stuff is diluted completely away.That the water if you shake it just right has some sort of structure to it that is influenced by the extract of whatever you started with, and that once you take it this structure stays in your body and then that is what causes the effect.Apparently you have to shake it the right way because tap water (and the molecules in it must have been at some time in contact with all drugs and plant extracts, etc.... at some point) will not do the job. It has to be done by proper homeopathic shaking techniques.Other sub-atomic (smaller than an atom) theories tend to float around because you have to be able to explain how when the is not a single molecule (a molecule is made up of many atoms) of X it still has an effect. And has more effect than when there are many molecules of X present.Memory water is one of the most famous of these because there was a paper published in Nature about it in the 1980's and they sent some debunkers (James Randi was part of the team) to watch the experiments and they published that analysis in the same issue. It was pretty big news around the scientific community so it tends to be one of the better known theories.K.


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

Hey,Ok I know nothing about homeopathy so I will make no comment on it.But, kmottus:you mentioned that some doctors were allowed to participate in clinical trials because they achieved a bigger placebo effect than average. Surely that is a massive deal in itself and merits proper investigation ? Is this being done - I ask only as I've never heard this before and you caught my attention with that comment.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Thanks kmottus for that explanation of meta analysis and for the link


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

I don't know of any specific studies, but I know that the placebo cure rate can vary from doctor to doctor in studies (and some doctors are very good at curing people....enough that it really can mess up the data).Much of what makes "alternative" practioners work well seem to be the same things that seem to work in placebo control cures. Part of it has to do with the difference between being seen in a clinic by a doctor under HMO pressure to see too many people per hour and being seen in a clinical trial where the people really need to do what it takes to keep you from dropping the study.So you are listened toThey take time with youGenerally get a positive experience.Even how sure the doctor is that something will cure you and how believable they are can make a difference.It is why some doctors ponder the idea that maybe the best medicine would be to have a set of placebos (different colors different names basically one for each of the main issue so you don't get the same thing for your heart issues they gave you for a neurological problem that they gave you for a GI problem).Basically the way it has been described is that for non-emergancy things (like for raging infections you do not do this) but any nagging chronic issue You give the speech.There is this drug. It doesn't work for everyone, but for the people it works for it can take care of the problem really well. It has the least amount of side effects so I want you to try it for 3 weeks and call me back. If it works for you we will keep you on that as long as it works. If it isn't helping after 3 weeks we will try you on something else.However, is it ethical to lie to patients like that???? It does tend to fall into the "do no harm" as it can't hurt them (as long as you don't placebo everything, just the things that don't need immediate intervention).But a lot of the "what makes placebo's" work well seems to mesh well with what I see many alternative practioners do.They take time to listenThey are sure that the thing will work for youPart of what makes medical practice not work sometimes is being really honest about the uncertainties that a treatment will work. For the best mental healing you want to be certain that this thing will absolutely fix you right up. Which is what many alt. med types do. They truely believe (or at least fake it well) that whatever they do will absolutely be the thing that cures you.K.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

I'll see if I can find anything systematic about placebo curing...I'll be back


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Am J Public Health. 2002 Oct;92(10):1662-7. ï¿½ï¿½ Acupuncture outcomes, expectations, patient-provider relationship, and the placebo effect: implications for health promotion.So DW.Department of Psychology, University of Maryland, College Park, MD, USA. dso###fac.howard.eduOBJECTIVES: To explore whether treatment outcomes are associated with a patient's degree of general hopefulness, expectations regarding treatment, attributions of health status, beliefs about mind-body dualism, and patient-provider relationship factors, I studied acupuncture patients' goal attainment. METHODS: Sixty-two acupuncture patients were interviewed before and after acupuncture regarding goal attainment, mind-body beliefs, hopefulness, and attributions of health status. Demographics, acupuncture treatment, and health care usage information was also collected. Acupuncturists provided 3 months of treatment. RESULTS: Patients reported treatment goal attainment from acupuncture. Their perceived outcomes were not associated with previous treatment, patient demographics, or the expected and actual numbers of needle insertion. Successful outcomes were related positively to number of different CAM treatments used in the past year but negatively to patients' expectations and the "Powerful Others" health locus of control dimension. CONCLUSIONS: *Perceived acupuncture outcomes seem not to be related to placebo effects and patient expectations, but rather to client-practitioner relationship factors.*


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Br J Gen Pract. 1999 Apr;49(441):309-12. The physician healer: ancient magic or modern science?Dixon DM, Sweeney KG, Gray DJ.Institute of General Practice, University of Exeter.The therapeutic role of general practitioners (GPs) is one that, over the years, has slowly diminished with the growing fashion for evidence-based medicine. However, it is clear that the art of healing and the strength of the doctor-patient relationship play a vital role in improving the well-being of patients. This is exemplified by the placebo effect, where the attitude of the doctor can make an appreciable difference to the psychological response of the patient who feels the need to be understood and listened to empathically. By maximizing the role of the physician healer, there is considerable scope for bridging the gap left by the impersonality of medical science, while at the same time increasing the GP's effectiveness.


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## canada dry (Feb 18, 2002)

To date there is no scientific evidence to indicate that homeopathic remedies diluted close to or beyond Avogadroï¿½s number are anything more than placebo. I have expressed my opinions and experiences wrt homeopathy in other discussions on this BB. If you are interested in them you can do a search. Like all forms of treatments whether they are a hoax or not I generally recommend everyone to do some research and to approach them with some caution. The human race has not unraveled all the mysteries of the universe. Is homeopathy one of these mysteries? *bonniei:* It is interesting that I am still drooling. Donï¿½t you find it strange that I would make such a comment? Could it be the homeopathy? Along with some other symptoms I think so. Now it is time to cut my lawn and prepare for the inevitable.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

LOL, I must have referred to the drooling bit on one of the threads. Drool on Frostbite. Be my guest!


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## canada dry (Feb 18, 2002)

bonniei:I have not finished cutting but maybe I should post how Hahnemman discovered his "theroy" of homeopathy for those who are not familiar but I should probably answer your question, ï¿½FrostBite, Really?ï¿½ first. Your answer coming to a new topic soon.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

I don't understand,"FrostBite really?" When did I say it? Anyways waiting patiently for your answer. And go ahead and cut and paste as much as you want. It should be educational.


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## canada dry (Feb 18, 2002)

bonniei:Your response to my reply regarding "My mind is made up about Candida, yeast".If I do decide to post additional information on this thread I hope I don't have to cut and paste but I may have to.


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## passionflower (Feb 1, 2003)

OK, here's my experience with homeopathics. I've tried several, especially those designed for bloating/gas. Nux Vomica, Lycopodium and Magnesia Phosphorica did little to nothing for me--have tried them multiple times, too. But Carbo-Vegetablis works for me every single time. No kidding. I have also used sulfer very recently for odor with gas and it also was effective. I have never seen a homeopathic Doctor, but got my advice from a book titled Irritable Bowel Syndrome--a Natural Approach by Rosemary Nicol with a foreword by William John Snape, Jr, MD. According to the book Snape is a leading gastroenterologist who has written in medical journals such as the American Journal of Digestive Disease, Gastroenterology, and the New England Journal of Medicine, and is formerly associated with Harbor-UCLA Medical Center. Ms. Nicol is clearly a Brit, and her book is quite rational. There are only a few pages about homeopathics, but she does give specific advice about what to take for which type of IBS symptoms you are experiencing. If it is a placebo effect I do not know why some homeopathics work for me over and over and over, and others do not. Also, I might mention Gas-X/Simethicone which is also supposed to be good for gas does nothing either--so no placebo effect there either. I'm no scientist, but that's my experience. I use Boirons Brand by the way.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

oh Frostbite why don't you reopen that thread and answer it there?


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Cindy, Thanks.


> quote: I've tried several, especially those designed for bloating/gas. Nux Vomica, Lycopodium and Magnesia Phosphorica did little to nothing for me--have tried them multiple times, too. But Carbo-Vegetablis works for me every single time. No kidding. I have also used sulfer very recently for odor with gas and it also was effective.


i was fishing for some positive outcomes. I guess i would like it to be true--homeopathy. it gives us more treatment options. However, if it was proven to be a big hoax then i would probably gain some perverse satisfaction in having all these esoteric charlatans exposed. My apologies to any homeopaths --in case it is effective.Kmottus, the subject of memory water intrigues me. a friend of mine spent $1500 on the living water machine. It is basically a distiller with an ozononater attached. i think he got ripped but he is convinced it is effective. When I drank the water I came down with a raging headache and I never get headaches. Maybe the ozone messed me up.


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## passionflower (Feb 1, 2003)

My pleasure. And, I agree I'd like to see all snake-oil entrepreneurs get their due. But, all I can offer up is my personal experience, and I have found some work for me. If it's a placebo effect, I'm confused why some work repeatedly and others don't. The reason I mentioned Boiron's specifically is I've tried one other brand and they tasted horrible--like sucking on an aspirin. Here in Austin a tube of Boiron's costs only $4.50, so in my case way back when I read Nicol's book, it was worth a whirl. I don't spend a dime that I'm going to be upset if something doesn't work. But, I'm open to experimenting, which means some things have helped while others haven't. If you decide to try some, do your research on what might work best, and go cautiously. Best, C.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:The principles behind it seem completely beyond belief


This statement is, in fact, sensible and logical.


> quote:If it's a placebo effect, I'm confused why some work repeatedly and others don't.


This is how the placebo effect operates. Conditions naturally fluctuate.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------The principles behind it seem completely beyond belief--------------------------------------------------------------------------------This statement is, in fact, sensible and logical.


it could be a valid treatment and therefore should not be so quickly dismissed. i like what cindy from texas claimed. I had a similar response from my sinus formula, yet the other 12 formulas did nothing ---especially the digestive formulas for gas, bloating, indigestion...Something could be working but we just do not understand it yet.Flux, doesn't it concern you that your closedmindedness makes you appear ignorant? Scientists are generally open minded except when things are proven beyond a shadow of a doubt such as nothing traveling faster than the speed of light.If a treatment is dangerous then that is a different story. At that point a person can still have an open mind but take a strong stand against it until further proof is obtained.


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## canada dry (Feb 18, 2002)

kel:You should find a better analogy. X-rays traveling through glass exceed the speed of light and experiments by NEC Research Institute have shown pulses of light traveling through cesium gas can exceed the speed of light by 300 times. I understand results such as these create a problem for both causality and special relativity theory but this is not my specialty. The use of combination remedies (ï¿½formulasï¿½) is not ï¿½trueï¿½ homeopathy and homeopathic remedies are not 100% safe.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Frostbite, i did not know that, but it's funny because as I was typing it, the thought occurred to me that I was making an "assumption" and that is exactly what i was criticizing flux for doing.I even thought saying, ".... in OUR universe".Actually i am very glad you brought the cesium /light to my attention. It proves that we can be so certain of something yet SO incorrect ----errrr, flux.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: homeopathic remedies are not 100% safe


I have never heard this before. in what way can they be dangerous? Is it because some may work and therefore the medicine causes the wrong response?


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Frostbite,I would have guessed that you would be anti-homeopathy based on your science background. I did do a search and I found the info you posted ----- fascinating! http://www.ibsgroup.org/cgi-local/ubbcgi/u...45;t=000728;p=2 I thought the chances of it being of use was approximately 2-3%. That is changing. I thought I noticed some definite symptom reductions after the sinus medication and also recently I have been using an asthma formula and some weird things happened.***********************************************Flux, when are you going to quit sticking your foot in your mouth. I am sorry but you really are a moron. Not based on this issue but on so many others including this. That is not to say that you are wrong on this but it is your narrow mindedness.


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## canada dry (Feb 18, 2002)

kel:I must correct myself. The pulses of light used in the experiment had no mass and therefore do not contradict Einsteinï¿½s theory of relativity which states anything with mass cannot exceed the speed of light. As I stated before this is not my specialty but just the same the results indicate that the pulses did exceed the speed of light. I do not know if the results of the experiment have been confirmed by an outside source. Maybe someone else on the BB has additional information.I am opening myself up to criticism and my credibility will probably be questioned but I believe that homeopathy is not placebo. The unnecessary repetition of any homeopathic remedy can be dangerous as can the inappropriate use of any high potency remedy. You must be aware of the term ï¿½provingï¿½ in homeopathy but have you ever heard of the term ï¿½imprintingï¿½? Probably not, I donï¿½t expect Homeopaths are going to publicize that homeopathy can permanently poison an individual. So donï¿½t believe all the ï¿½completely safeï¿½ claims you might see on web sites and read in homeopathic books written for the general public. Here are a couple of links to articles written by famous American homeopaths from the early 1900ï¿½s when homeopathy was at its peak in North America (I apologize but these articles were written in the 1900ï¿½s by homeopaths and may be difficult to follow). http://www.homeoint.org/books3/kentlect/lect16.htm http://www.simillibus.com/tyler_hownottodoit.html If homeopathy was placebo why would these homeopaths warn of the risks associated with the practice of homeopathy? Of course it could be just the final part of the scam to insure that individuals do not self prescribe and obtain treatment from a homeopath. I understand James Tyler Kent though his experimentation with homeopathic remedies permanently poisoned his wife and Constantine Hering the ï¿½father of American homeopathyï¿½ paralyzed his arm with the remedy Lachesis (venom of the bushmaster snake).


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## Guest (Jun 15, 2003)

I may be the exception, but celery does the trick for me.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:it could be a valid treatment and therefore should not be so quickly dismissed.


Homeopathy is placebo and placebo can be a valid treatment. (But the patient should be informed that there is no active drug and it is just a sugar pill.)


> quote:Something could be working but we just do not understand it yet.


We already do understand it to be a placebo.


> quote:I have never heard this before. in what way can they be dangerous?


Yes, if they contain impurities, if they are say prepared inappropriately or intentionally doctored with a real drug even though they are not supposed to.


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## canada dry (Feb 18, 2002)

Evie:I like celery in Caesars.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

It's kind of scary that damage can result from homeopathy. I am becoming more and more intrigued with this healing art. --especially since flux has criticized it. I think that flux is a rather disturbed person in the same vein as Dr steven barrett. he is the doctor that is a front for the drug companies and his job is to discredit hundreds of effective products and methods via quackwatch.something else very strange is happening. My sinuses are draining at an extreme rate. The entire morning I have had gobs of mucous draining. This does not happen. I started 3 days ago using my sinus homeopathic medicine. The only other change I made was the VSL#3. Also, this morning we have high pressure (atmosphere). Who knows what is going on. Time is the best indicator if something is effective. It seems that for the longest time my lungs and sinuses have been dead. ...not eliminating foreign material the way they should be. The same is true of my colon. I assumed it was all due to atypical food allergies, yeast overgrowth, dysbiosis, and whatever else. A doctor taught me accupresssure and I practiced it regularly and it seemed to be very effective at controlling asthma and other symptoms but it was very time consuming so I quit.I have been told by 2 practioners that I have reversed polarity and one was able to set up a type of proof that blew me away. Also, 3 years ago I objected to an NAET practioners claims and her assistant was able to perform a manuever on me that left me very puzzled. Ever since then i have been intrigued with accupuncture and accupressure.This idea of blockages in the body might be crucial to people with IBS. I was able to repeatedly get my lungs to clear using accupressure but I had to do it 4 times a day for 10 minutes each time and it was a pain.I definitely am going to try and find a qualified homeopath before I screw myself up.


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## passionflower (Feb 1, 2003)

I should say that on the homeopathics I take (as well as enteric coated peppermint, and activated charcoal) that I never take any of these on a regular basis and only as last resorts. I try to manage my condition with correct eating habits, herbs such as fennel and ginger, exercise, heating pads/hot baths, self massage, and Doctor prescribed and monitored meds. I only use homeopathics when none of my routine practices work, or if I've indulged in a food that has aggravated my condition to a point that I need relief in a hurry. I live in constant pain even when using my routine, but I can tolerate it most of the time. But, then there's those other times . . . you know the story.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:he is the doctor that is a front for the drug companies and his job is to discredit hundreds of effective products and methods via quackwatch.


Logic?Drug companies spend *billions* to develop effective products. If there effective products out there, they would have discovered and been marketing them already.


> quote:I have been told by 2 practioners that I have reversed polarity





> quotene was able to set up a type of proof that blew me away





> quote:This idea of blockages in the body


Summarized,









> quote:a qualified homeopath


Logic?


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

I don't want to get off the topic but I just finished reading something on a personality type that describes a certain person here.It stated that a person can be so self-centered, egotistical, and bent on being correct that eventually they cross a fine line and then logic and reality become blurred with their opposites. Eventually this person starts succumbing to paranoid and insane type thinking before having a nervous breakdown. Name that person who insists on being correct all the time?


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

If you don't mind me saying so you seem to be the Obsessive type. Every post of your contains the word flux. I think you are secretly in love with him, kel and you are resisting it.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

"painfully aware of his or her status in dominant/submissive relationships, the patient seeks the approval of dominant figures in authority while secretly resenting it "You would like flux's approval secretly


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

trust me, I have NEVER been the submissive type. You should be able to tell from my posts. If anything I tend to be a controller. I am not naming names but a certain person is dangerous and they must be stopped. Obsessive? yes. I think the passive approach is the painful approach. back in the days when i did not know what was going on, I suffered the worst.Now I have at least solved 4 of my worst symptoms. Also, I am recovering from the reactions that are happening to my brain. things like confusion and fog.Therefore, several problems down and just a few left. However, the few that remain may be permanent. The food intolerances...


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Just kidding around with you though I don't think obsessive is the opposite of passive. Don't mind me!


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

I do hope you know that I have very little respect for that man. I am not even sure if I would call him a man.***********************************************I was always extremely skeptical of homeopathy. Especially after reading some of the attacks on it. I know a particular person here thinks it is utter fraud. However, upon much closer examination and through exposure to it from a friend, my mind has been opened somewhat.The principles behind it seem completely beyond belief. Almost like something from witchcraft but I have recently been challenged to several tests and I was shocked by the outcome. I consider myself to be a person who is not easily fooled and not very suggestible.Could there be something operating at the sub-atomic level? Things that we do not know about as of yet? I think it is a big mistake to say that it is a 100% fraud. The british journal, Lancet, has published several studies showing that it is effective beyond that of a placebo.I do not think that it is a cure all but I wonder if it could help with any of our symptoms. has anyone experienced any luck with this method?


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

click on the homeopathy link at the left of the web page. the information was supplied by the townsend letter. http://www.tldp.com/ In a series of experiments continued over 35 years, Kolisko4 reported that wheat seed growth was promoted by low dilutions of various metallic salts, inhibited by somewhat higher dilutions, and stimulated again at dilutions higher than Avogadro's number. Another experiment5 tested the effect on guinea pigs of daily doses of sodium chloride prepared in 30X, 200X, 400X, 600X, 800X, 1000X, 1200X and 1400X dilutions (all well past Avogadro's number). The trial, lasting six months, was repeated two years in succession. Controls received distilled water. Test animals lost weight and appetite, had dull shaggy coats, and dull watery eyes, were less active than controls, gave birth to young weighing less than the controls and had a higher mortality and lower reproduction rates than the controls.Other experiments, using techniques from physics, have also reported that homeopathically dilute substances display measurable differences that may seem paradoxical due to the small concentrations present. Nuclear magnetic resonance experiments6 conducted in 1963 measured three solutions: a) 87% ethanol in water,







sulphur 12X (prepared with succussion at each step, and c) an equivalent dilution of sulphur 12X prepared without succussion. The authors were able to distinguish the properly prepared sulphur 12X from the others, and concluded "some form of energy is imparted by succussion to a homeopathic drug, resulting in a slight change of the alcohol in these dilutions. There is a structural change in the solvent as the potency is made from the tincture to a higher dilution."


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:In a series of experiments continued over 35 years, ...


They should publish it here...


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

More evidence that there is something to this method of healing. http://www.mercola.com/2003/jun/28/homeopathy.htm I think that even the hardest core of skeptics have to wonder if there is something behind this treatment.Flux, you can come out of hiding. I am not sure that you can keep on denying all these issues that are becoming so clear.I am not referring to homeopathy because the jury is still out as far as i am concerned but it is looking a lot more promising.Eventually you may need to apologize to a lot of people whom you have hurt due to your closedmindedness.There is without a question a problem with yeast/fungus and an "immune response". It seems that some people have a serious issue with yeast. I think that homeopathy might be a very good way to treat this strange phenomena of yeast hypersensitivity.I'll bet you are starting to agree.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

It sounds like


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## plasmon (Sep 29, 2001)

Flux, the NMR article quoted is "Modern aspects of homeopathic research", Journal of the American Institute of Homeopathy. 1963; _56_: pp.363-366.







NMR instruments were relatively primitive back then and there are technical reasons why instrumental error may have played a part in these results.Regarding the thermoluminescence study: The "chilled" samples undergo phase changes that affect the structure of the sample, meaning the "memory" of the water would be disrupted at points anyway. The difference when the analytes are allegedly not present could also be explained by the presence of impurities having a quenching effect on the luminescence process.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Interesting article kel!


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

> quote: Logic?Drug companies spend billions to develop effective products. If there effective products out there, they would have discovered and been marketing them already.


Drug companies invest billions to make more billions - period. Effective products are a side issue. If you believe otherwise flux, then you truly are a gullible fool.Frostbite - delighted to see a little physics !!! Relativity ain't my forte either but as I understand it - some particles (tachyons) can travel faster than light, but no-one knows if they exist or not yey - the key issue though is that nothing can cross the speed of light as that would require infinite mass. But kel - you did make an assumption - the assumption that the speed of light is actually fixed. It might not be - there is a new theory out called Doubly Special Relativity - a refinement of Einstein's Special Relativity. Basically it says at really high energies the speed of light can change, and a whole load of other stuff I don't understand. There was a big article in New Scientist or one of those magazines a few months back about it. Also - they can actually "slow down" light using a wacky state of matter know as a Bose-Einstein condensate (the 5th (or 6th?) state of matter) - but this is kind of a cheat as it is the group velocity that is slow and not the velocity of individual photons.To get back to the subject at hand, homeopathy. I have during the week used my first homeopathic remedy - stuff called luffa complex for hayfever. It seemd to work a treat - and I base that not just on the fact that my hayfever dissappeared but also that my sinuses are behaving differently since I used it 5 days ago.But I dunno - I'm still a bit skeptical - but I ahve to say it's fascinating. Anyone know where I can find out more about this water memory idea ?


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quoterug companies invest billions to make more billions - period. Effective products are a side issue.


No, they must develop effective products to make more billions. They have to because that is the only way they can do it, at least in the US.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Well, i finally took the plunge and on October 8th i took my first professionally administered homeopathic dose. She will not tell me what it is so that I will not be influenced.however, NOW I AM CONVINCED. Something did happen. i went through this major detox reaction. I had oil forming all over my arms and face, horrible smelling gas and diarrhea, and i did not feel very good. But within 60 hours I felt like a new person. it has been almost an entire month and i no longer feel sick during the day like i did the previous 7 years or so. Plus i am very alert. The past 2 days i had some brain fog due to sugar and a kale allergy, but overall this is a big reason why i have feeling so great lately.I am reading several books on homeopathy and it is finally starting to make sense. it seems that there is something operating at the sub-atomic level.kmottus i re-read some of your abstracts. i think the first one is a good indicator of its effectiveness. But it also seems that they are "forcing" homeopathy to be something that it may not be designed to be. I think the one from the drug journal needs to be thrown out. There seems to be a HUGE conflict of interest there. I don't trust a journal that is centered on drugs to report accurate info on homeopathy --- something that is in direct competition to drugs.Flux --- what a shame that your mind is so closed. You are a tragic victim of your own intelligence, but i need to be careful because i also ---incorrectly--- wrote it off as worthless. So who am i to point the finger at you. But at least my mind was open to some degree. that is the true measure of scientific intelligence. the ability to recognize that anything is possible. --but just because we don't understand quantum theory or vibrational string theory does not mean that we can make claims such as homeopathy is worthless. If the person can claim that homeopathy is worthless then i would like to hear them explain it in terms of quantum physics. I.E., what is it about quantum physics that PROVES that homeopathy can NOT imprint the energy onto another substance.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

kel- no one can believe what you say. You are trying a hundred and one things at the same time and each one helps yopu dramatically although I am constantly stumped by how you know what is helping you when there are those 101 things in your system. I know you want to help people but try to retain some credibility atleast, please.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

hi B!the only thing that has me confused right now is the fish oil vs homeopathy. something has sort of fixed one of my worst problems---- lack of peristalsis. ---But I have clearly stated each time that i do not know if it is the fish oil. i state that ---"time will tell".you are correct Bonniei -- homeopathy is very big in India. also huge in france, germany, poland, russia, and even england has managed to give it a big boost. the US is lagging. the AMA sought to crush it and they fairly succeeded. The only thing I care about is that I am almost healed!!!!!!!! ---but my intolerances are raging on.what would you rather have...... a total cure but you don't know what is doing it ---- or----- total misery and you don't know how to solve it?the answer is obvious. the fish oil is a big question mark. the mercury chelation is a big question mark. the homeopathy was powerful but i don't know if it solved the peristalsis problem or not.I have always known that the French, Indians, Poles, and Germans are smart but now i have proof based on the homeopathy. Flux do you think they are dumb for practicing this healing method? In france it is considered standard medicine.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:She will not tell me what it is so that I will not be influenced


Let me guess. It was


> quote:however, NOW I AM CONVINCED. Something did happen.


Who would thought?


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## Fachtna (May 22, 2002)

I don't beleive Homeopathy or most alternative treatment are hoaxes - including reiki etc. However, I do believe the claims made for the efficacy of many of these treatments are often exaggerated. I have not received any dramatic effect on my IBS from any of these treatments - only very short term benefits at most. But I'm sure that the homeopathy, reiki etc all had some real physical effect on my body. I while I haven't had significant benifet for IBS from alternative remedies I have had benefits for other problems. For instance I have had some great unmistakable results from acupuncture for insomnia. I get a kind of pollen allergy in my eyes once or twice a year and my complementary practitioner gives me a homeopathic remedy that alway clears it up quickly.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

fach,i agree. I think that since i was doing everything right such as eating an oligoantigenic diet, managing stress, supplementing with all the essential fatty acids, taking all the minerals that the body needs, removal of the toxic heavy metals, taking Ibsacol (which has made the biggest difference) --- then homeopathy was given the best chance to succeed.one interesting analogy of how it works is that it is able to give the body a good "vibrational" nudge in the direction that it needs to go in. The paractioner told me that homeopathy takes a LONG time to work. However, i am convinced that i am a fast responder because i have been doing almost everything correctly. i think that if i was out there chain smoking cigs, boozing it up, eating twinkies for breakfast then i would not be helped that much. Flux, once again i can not criticize you for your incorrect views because I was almost as skeptical as you. My mind was open just a crack and that crack got wider and wider as i started to study it. after you have made an extensive study of it and then experimented with it by a good practioner you will have your mind changed also.***********************cindy from texas claims that she is helped by a remedy ---EVERY time. i have a store bought remedy for constipation and it actually causes severe cramping in me EVERY time i take it. I really believe that we need to see a pro for these matters.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:I don't beleive Homeopathy.. treatment are hoaxes


Belief is irrelevant with regard to homeopathy. That homeopathy does not work is a *fact.*


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Flux,the guy you work for --steven barrett has made some glowing errors in his analysis of homeopathy. these were pointed out to me and then it started to make sense. once the "house of cards" came tumbling down on quackwatch's anaysis I was able to understand things better.--and he used the same argument that i was using to discredit it. i finally understood my error, but he and you won't because it is your job to discredit valuable treatments. At least you are a loyal employee/free-lancer.If a person is paid enough money by the AMA, the drug companies, the ADA then the truth no longer matters. --you just go about doing your job of discrediting everything that is considered a threat. eventually the lies become the truth and the truth become the lies. it all gets blurred just so that a person can live in a consistant state with himself. ---barrett and you must have deep seated mechanisms in place that keep your mind closed and unyielding to anything that your bosses want you to crush.but in the end you lose because your mental illness does not get treated by some incredible healing methods.


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## SophieUK (Dec 18, 2000)

I'm fascinated by homeopathy and the ideas behind it, but I have to say my instinct is to say that it couldn't possibly work. However, that instinct is completely without scientific merit of any kind, obviously.I did try taking some homeopathy tablets once and I have to say my stomach did do some strange things while on the tablets, but for the worse rather than the better. Not that that proves anything either.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:I have to say my instinct is to say that it couldn't possibly work. However, that instinct is completely without scientific merit of any kind, obviously.


Your instinct just happens to be correct and that is based on many experiments that do have scientific merit


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

sophie,you are fortunate. you do not live in a country that is as hell bent as the US is as far as everything being driven by corporate profits. england may come close but the US is the worst in the world. (the AMA had a mission to destroy homeopathy many decades ago and they did a nice job....rockefeller donated millions to alter medicine and the way it is practiced -- just another example of some do-gooder mucking things up)england has a rich history in homeopathy.there is SOMETHING to it. it is buried deep within the unsolved mysteries of physics.my uneducated guess is that the fundamental element of all energy/matter is in the form of "strings" (as in vibrational string theory). i am starting to understand that homeopathy works by imprinting the energy (and everything is just energy) of a given substance onto trillions upon trillions upon trillions to the trillionth power of strings. once these strings are all vibrating at the same frequency--then they are able to initiate some type of correcting mechanism within the human body. flux criticizes that which he does not understand. it is just one of the signs of mental illness. people with mental illness can not stand to live in a world of uncertainty. i hate it myself. but fortunately i had the guts and the courage to do the "work" and spend the money. i took a chance and it is paying off beautifully.i will gladly admit when i get burned and i have got burned dozens of times. i will gladly speak on all the things that i got ripped off on. --but homeopathy has stood the test of time (200 plus years). there is a good reason it still sticks around --it works!!! studies bear this out!!!!!!!!!!!!there is something going on and if the professional knows what she is doing then she can affect a powerful response.self-knowledge/ symptom-knowledge is the key to good results. i.e., you need to know everything about your symptoms --even the most inane and nonsensical things.flux, i am sitting back here laughing at your ignorance. you lose big boy!!! you are sooooooo trapped that i actually feel sorry for you. i was in your shoes a little while ago. i know what it is like. i almost see an analogy to religion here (christianity). the difference is that homeopathy has some verifiable means.by the way, my buddy frostbite also KNOWS IT WORKS. (frostbite is a scientist --- he is smarter and wiser than you)


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: http://www.ibsgroup.org/cgi-local/ubbcgi/u...45;t=000728;p=2 Hi.I don't know who started this conversation about Homeopathy but I just (2 seconds ago) posted something about it not knowing this message was out there.Anyway, my point here is that I have had IBS since I was 9. It got so bad that I couldn't gain weight, anemic, and had to miss a lot of my schooling. Anyway, when I was hmmmmm...17 or so I went to a homeopath becuase doctors are clueless. This was now 6 years ago now. I was violently ill afterwards and ended up in the hospital from those damn sugary white pills but all I can say is that to this day I feel 100% better than I did when I was at the age of 9-17years. I still, of course, have IBS, because everyone knows that it doesn't go away, but I am able to manage it now. What I am trying to say is that what do you have to loose, besides your $200. But even compared to $200 I am sure most people spend more than that on meds and special foods. I am an avid homeopath sponser! I would recommend it for anyone even if you have to spend a night in the ER. So, that's my speach, I hope you all try it at least once. That's all it took for me!Beth *****************************************I have been seeing a homeopathic Dr for 2 yrs. In England they have to be qualified Doctors before they can be homoepaths. I have powders made up in the hospital's pharmacy, I was in a terrible state when I first went to him, (I had to be refered by my own Dr.) My own Dr said I can't help you, so try A homeopatic Dr. I had to take the powders 1 a day, once a week then once a fornight, then once a month and so-on. I am now on once every six weeks. I am due to see him in April, I expect that will be the last time. Untill I started treatment(it was a last resort)I did not know how ill I felt all the time. He gave me back my life. But I must emphasise! make sure they are qualified medical Doctors as well as homeopaths. Good luckDAVO******************************************Stephen Barret MD (KEL'S comment&#8230;&#8230;" this guy -stephen barret-- is one very sick individual&#8221
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I searched the archives and came up with an incredibly interesting thread on the effectiveness of homeopathy.special thanks to frostbite. frostbite, are there any good forums on the web concerning this healing method. did you say you moderate one???*********************************I have also responded to homeopathy. the response was far greater than anything that I thought might happen. I was a former critic of homeopathy -- i feel kind of stupid (but hey -- live and learn).(Kel's response....below)On the 5th day after my initial dose, I experienced an incredible, extreme emotional reaction. i will explain it in detail later. Very briefly, the entire day (monday, october 13th 2003) was very strange. I felt unusually stimulated and alert (this is very rare). by noon a sense of extreme frustration and aggitation and irritability had come over me (and the day was just like any other day --but i felt really different). the next thing i know is that i am on my hands and knees and i am crying but within 15 seconds i am laughing, but it becomes a mixture of laughing and crying and the whole time my stomach is pumping violently from the raw emotion that has overcome me. the crying/laughing lasted approximately 4 minutes!!!! it was probably the strangest thing that has ever happened to me. this type of behavior is HIGHLY uncharacteristic of me. Nothing in my history has ever exhibited this type of behavior before. Many more things happened but it would take too long to explain it all. prior to the "emotional breakthrough", i had experienced a very nasty detox on the prior thursday and friday.ever since saturday oct 11th a certain symptom has completely resolved itself. the symptom i am referring to is that i was very sick during the day ----EVERY day for the past 7 years. This is GONE!!!! also, my brain has been stimulated, but so far i don't notice a major shift in my allergies or intolerances. I am simply amazed!!!!!*****************************Flux, are we all crazy? are the french crazy? are the germans crazy? the people of India? are you going to actually sit there and say that you know for 100% certainty that homeopathy is a hoax? would you bet the life of all your loved ones on that?YES --people --- there are some effective and powerful treatments out there, and just because we do not understand the physics behind it does not mean it does not work. Until you DO it and actively study it. then any comment is just a gut hunch. DOING it is different than READING about it. But both are necessary.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:there is SOMETHING to it. it is buried deep within the unsolved mysteries of physics.


Yeah, it's called


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quotekel states the following) the overwhelming number of french doctors support homeopathy(flux replies ---- "No French Doctors support homeopathy")


Mr Flux,From "The Consumers Guide to Homeopathy", by dana ullman, page 36 -- as many as 70% of french doctors consider homeopathy to be effective. Homeopathy is taught in at least 7 medical schools as of 1996. By 1992 36% of the french population used homeopathic medicines. they are fully reimbursed by the health insurance system.The British medical Journal has shown that in 1986 42% of british doctors referred patients to a homeopathic doctor. 55% of pharmacists considered them useful while only 14% considered them useless.Now we move on to the GERMANS. 10% of german doctors have made homeopathy their specialty, and another 10% prescribe homeopathic medicines. Homeopathic medicines in Germany is approaching 1 billion in total sales ---85% of these sales are from a german doctor.Switzerland, Italy, Netherlands, Poland, russia, and India are just some of the countries where homeopathy is a valuable part of the medical system.In Russia, the people will avoid the free medical system and opt to PAY for homeopathic treatment instead.I have a thousand more facts from several books.The physics of homeopathy is a difficult concept to comprehend; therefore, most people should be forgiven if they can not comprehend it. It completely flew in the face of all logic and everything that i was taught also. ---But the fact is that it works despite the fact that man has not uncovered the physics behind the human body and the physics of matter/energy.(i.e., newtonian physics broke down on a grander scale, and even einstein's laws can not explain the first few picoseconds of the big bang...this is why a new set of laws are still in the making --- "string theory")However, matter is NOTHING but energy (as proved by einstein ----- E=mc (sq) ). therefore, it is just a matter of treating energy with energy. a very powerful energy catalyst is dropped into the body and from there the healing is started. the medicine needs to be accurately MATCHED with the patients symptoms and the potency needs to be strong enough. if this is done correctly then ---- PRESTO. ---and this is why homeopathy has survived for over 200 years and has spread all over the world --- It works if done CORRECTLY!!!!!In fact homeopathy is FAR, FAR, FAR more advanced in its mechanism than allopathic medicine. That is because it is using the science of physics instead of the science of biochemistry to effect the healing.Allopathic medicine seeks to coverup a symptom or make it go away instead of digging deep to get to the root of our ails.treating IBS has proven to be a total flop using allopathic approaches.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:From "The Consumers Guide to Homeopathy", by dana ullman, page 36


You mean you didn't imagine this yourself? Just stole it from another work of fiction.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.mercola.com/2003/aug/23/impossible_cure.htm *In "Impossible Cure: The Promise of Homeopathy," author Amy Lansky tells the incredible story of how she used homeopathy to cure her son of autism. Although Lansky is not a medical professional, she has a Ph.D. from Stanford and worked for NASA as a researcher. She has more than enough scientific training to provide a compelling and easy to understand description of how homeopathy can be used to treat "incurable conditions" like autism.* Along with this compelling testimonial, Lansky provides an in-depth account on the history, philosophy and practice of homeopathy, as well as dozens of other testimonials on the power of homeopathy in curing various health problems. I have never been formally trained in homeopathy, and as a result I don't use much of it in my practice, but *I am convinced it can be used as an effective tool for many conditions if properly utilized.* There are many complexities to its optimal implementation, and Lansky provides an excellent start for someone beginning to explore this modality.*********************************************Gee flux,i guess this PhD is fabricating everything just the same as 1000's and 1000's of others are fabricating also.She is probably some sicko who wants to give all kinds of false hope to moms all over the world just so she can get her kicks --right?*********************************************homeopathy may not be the ultimate cure all, but it is a very powerful tool if used correctly. this is why it is so commonly used throughout the world.In america -- land of the almighty $$$$$-- it is making a strong emergence due to the power of the internet. Eventually the consumers will thwart big business' influence on how medicine is practiced.*********************************************the ex-shrink steven barrett -- a man who has been bought by big business and the medical profession -- says, "what else can it be (concerning homeopathy)".Barrett can't figure it out --therefore-- he automatically JUMPS to the conclusion that it is a worldwide SCAM. he thinks that the scam has been perpetuated over 200 years and has managed to fool thousands and thousands of doctors and patients. (Barrett does not WANT to understand it because it is his mission to eliminate the competition.)IT IS PHYSICS!!!! PLAIN AND SIMPLE. It is not that much different than the way accupuncture can manipulate energy systems within the body. lack of understanding forces the know-it-alls to jump to the wrong conclusion.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:i guess this PhD is fabricating everything just the same as 1000's and 1000's of others are fabricating also. She is probably some sicko who wants to give all kinds of false hope to moms all over the world just so she can get her kicks --right?


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2003)

Flux,let's argue. I think you are wrong wrong wrong-O about drugs and drug companies having to have effective products to make $$$. Sure they want something really effective, but what if it ISN'T that effective or only partially and something else comes along to take its place, which is more effective and maybe not as expensive. Surely drug manufacturers must be afraid of alternative medicines when a LOT of people are turning to these alternatives. I have a good example - I was pushed steroids and antibiotics for sinus infections for 20 years of my life ( been taking between 3-6 rounds of antibiotics for TWENTY YEARS). They weren't curing me of sinusitis. Finally found out that I can simply wash my sinuses out and I do not get infections AT ALL anymore. Okay, why wouldn't all the ENT's I've been to know about this simple and effective therapy until 2003? Its b/c drug companies don't want people to know about the easy cures that don't cost anything. I think they are VERY scared about the revolution in medicine that is coming which is geared to more natural approaches / more patient accessible medicine.BUT - I think there is a ton of b.s. alternative medicine out there - and we should be protected from it. I don't like the idea of people spending money on things that are not researched and don't make any scientific sense. So I think we need stuff like quackwatch out there. Personally, I think Homeopathy is placebo.


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2003)

oh yeah - i don't know anything about quackwatch - but if this guy who heads it is really affiliated with pharmaceutical co.s, then he should really be watching them instead. He can start with manufacturers of Zelnorm - not an effective drug - manufactureres even overstated its effectiveness on commercials to the point that FDA had to make a statement slapping them down! How many other new drugs are being sold to us with promises of efficacy that doe not exist. Sure, I and many others won't try Zelnorm again, but they already made their money off of us. And with that new commercial, they'll make a LOT more. No one will notice what the FDA said and doctors don't even keep up with whether or not a drug is really effective. It will keep on being prescribed for years. Zelnorm will be around a long time, making money, and helping very few people. I wonder at what point in the cost analysis did they realize that maybe it wasn't that effective, but they could still launch it with some claims. look at:zelnormlotronexjust to name a few


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: Personally, I think Homeopathy is placebo


It's not a placebo. In fact even frostbite -- a scientist whom i have much respect for -- KNOWS that homeopathy can actually cause some problems if done incorrectly.I could order something off the internet at a 10M dose that does not match your symptom profile and end up causing some harm to you --such as profuse sweating and fever or severe cramps.It is normal to be skeptical but once i got cracking on studying it and implementing it -- i became just one more of the hundreds of thousands who have seen it work.The body DOES have the ability to heal itself just slice your finger with a razor and you will see healing happening right before your very eyes. However, in people like you and me there is something going on that is preventing us from healing. the theory of homeopathy is that it is able to use some type of vibrational energy at the subatomic level to have a dramatic effect on our bodies.The hardest idea to comprehend is the idea of the medicines ACTUALLY becoming stronger as they are diluted more and more. The only likely answer is that kinetic energy is being constantly imparted to the mixture and the most basic element of all matter/energy is slowly picking up some unique frequency (from the original healing substance) and storing it within the solution.Like i said ---- it is much more advanced than allopathic medicine. there are several studies that clearly show that homeopathy is NOT a placebo. The occasional study that does not support it is due to a number of factors. parameters of the study are ill defined. the homeopathy is being forced to conform to allopathic rules. the length of study may be too short, the study parameters are failing to account for uniqueness among test subjects (this is crucial --- variance among subjects require precise matching of symptoms and medicines), doses used are too weak, etc, etcthe testimonials that i collected above are rather interesting. a lot of them mimick my experience. it is still shy of 6 weeks for me but profound changes have occurred, but my gut has not responded very well -- if anything I have lost some stool volume over the last 10 days or so. we shall see. Physical symptoms are usually the last to come along.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: You mean you didn't imagine this yourself? Just stole it from another work of fiction


Flux,the author of the "FAKE / FICTION" book serves on the advisory board of HARVARD and COLUMBIA SCHOOLS of MEDICINE. You better go and warn Harvard U. that he is a FAKE.


> quote: DANA ULLMAN, MPH, is one of America's leading advocates for homeopathy. He has authored six books, including Homeopathy A-Z, The Consumer's Guide to Homeopathy, Homeopathic Medicines for Children and Infants, Discovering Homeopathy, and (the best-selling) Everybody's Guide to Homeopathic Medicines (with Stephen Cummings, MD). Dana serves on advisory boards of alternative medicine institutes at Harvard and Columbia schools of medicine. He is the founder of Homeopathic Educational Services, America's leading resource center for homeopathic books, tapes, medicines, software, and correspondence courses. Homeopathic Educational Services has co-published over 35 books on homeopathy with North Atlantic Books.


**************************************************************************************************** http://www.homeopathic.org/meta.htm K. Linde, N. Clausius, G. Ramirez, et al., Are the Clinical Effects of Homeopathy Placebo Effects? A Meta-analysis of Placebo-Controlled Trials Lancet, September 20, 1997, 350:834-843. This state of the art meta analysis reviewed 186 studies, 89 of which fit pre-defined criteria. Rather than count and compare the number of trials which show efficacy of treatment, the researchers pooled the data from the various studies to assess data. The results showed that patients taking homeopathic medicines were 2.45 times more likely to experience a positive therapeutic effect than placebo. J. Kleijnen, P. Knipschild, G. ter Riet, Clinical Trials of Homeopathy British Medical Journal, February 9, 1991, 302:316-323. This is the most widely cited meta-analysis of clinical research prior to 1991. This meta-analysis reviewed 107 studies of homeopathic medicines, 81 of which (or 77%) showed positive effect. Of the best 22 studies, 15 showed efficacy. The researchers concluded: "The evidence presented in this review would probably be sufficient for establishing homeopathy as a regular treatment for certain indications." Further, "The amount of positive evidence even among the best studies came as a surprise to us." C. N. Shealy, MD, R.P. Thomlinson, V. Borgmeyer,Osteoarthritic Pain: A Comparison of Homeopathy and AcetaminophenAmerican Journal of Pain Management, 1998;8:89-91A double-blinded study to document the relative efficacy of homeopathic remedies in comparison to acetaminophen for the treatment of pain associated with osteoarthritis (OA) among 65 patients. An IRB approved protocol. Results of the study documented better pain relief in the homeopathic group (55% achieved measured relief from homeopathy as compared to 38% from acetaminophen); however, the superiority of this treatment, in comparison with the acetaminophen group, did not reach statistical significance. The investigators conclude that homeopathic treatments for pain in OA patients appear to be safe and at least as effective as acetaminophen, and are without its potential adverse effects including compromise to both liver and kidney function. Many of the patients asked to continue with the homeopathic treatment. M. Weiser, W. Strosser, P. Klein,Homeopathic vs. Conventional Treatment of Vertigo: A Randomized Double-Blind Controlled Clinical Study Archives of Otolaryngology--Head and Neck Surgery, August, 1998, 124:879-885. This was a study with 119 subjects with various types of vertigo, half of whom were given a homeopathic medicine (a combination of four homeopathic medicines) and half were given a leading conventional drug in Europe for vertigo, betahistine hydrochloride. The homeopathic medicines were found to be similarly effective and significantly safer than the conventional control. D. Reilly, M. Taylor, N. Beattie, et al., Is Evidence for Homoeopathy Reproducible? Lancet, December 10, 1994, 344:1601-6. This study successfully reproduced evidence from two previous double-blinded trials all of which used the same model of homeopathic immunotherapy in inhalant allergy. In this third study, 9 of 11 patients on homeopathic treatment improved compared to only 5 of 13 patients on placebo. The researchers concluded that either homeopathic medicines work or controlled studies don't. Their work has again be recently replicated and is submitted for publication. (See Is Homeopathy a Placebo Response? Lancet 1986, below.) J. Jacobs, L. Jimenez, S. Gloyd, Treatment of Acute Childhood Diarrhea with Homeopathic Medicine: A Randomized Clinical Trial in Nicaragua, Pediatrics, May 1994, 93,5:719-25. This study was the first on homeopathy to be published in an American medical journal. The study compared individualized high potency homeopathic preparations against a placebo in 81 children, between ages 6 mo. and 5 yrs., suffering with acute diarrhea. The treatment group benefited from a statistically significant 15% decrease in duration. The authors noted that the clinical significance would extend to decreasing dehydration and postdiarrheal malnutrition and a significant reduction in morbidity. E. Ernst, T. Saradeth, and K.L. Resch, Complementary Treatment of Varicose Veins: A Randomized Placebo-controlled, Double-Blind Trial, Phlebology, 1990, 5:157-163. This study of 61 patients showed a 44% improvement in venous filling time in the homeopathic treated group when compared with placebo. P. Fisher, A. Greenwood, E.C. Huskisson, et al., Effect of Homoeopathic Treatment on Fibrositis British Medical Journal, August 5, 1989, 299:365-66. This trial was double-blind with a crossover design, comparing R toxicodendron to a placebo in 30 patients all suffering from an identical syndrome identified as the admission criteria. It showed a significant reduction in tender spots, by 25%, when patients were given the homeopathic medicine, as compared to when they were given the placebo. D. Reilly, M. Taylor, C. McSherry, Is Homeopathy a Placebo Response? Controlled Trial of Homeopathic Potency with Pollen in Hayfever as Model, Lancet, October 18, 1986, 881-86. The double-blind study compared a high dilution homeopathic preparation of grass pollens against a placebo in 144 patients with active hay fever. The study method considered pollen counts, aggravation in symptoms and use of antihistamines and concluded that patients using homeopathy showed greater improvement in symptoms than those on placebo, and that this difference was reflected in a significantly reduced need for antihistamines among the homeopathically treated group. The results confirmed those of the pilot study and demonstrate that homeopathic potencies show effects distinct from those of the placeboVittorio Elia and Marcella NiccoliThermodynamics of extremely diluted aqueous solutions. Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, June 1999An extensive thermodynamic study has been carried out on aqueous solutions obtained through successive dilutions and succussions of 1% in weight of some solutes up to extremely diluted solutions, (less than 1x10-5 mol kg-1) obtained via several 1/100 successive dilution processes. The interaction of acids or bases with the extremely diluted solutions has been studied calorimetrically at 25ï¿½C. Measurements have been performed of the heats of mixing of acid or basic solutions, having different concentrations, with bidistilled water or with the extremely diluted solutions. Despite the extreme dilution of the solutions, an exothermic heat of mixing in excess has been found, in about the 92% of the cases, with respect to the corresponding heat of mixing with the untreated solvent. Here [it is shown] that successive dilutions and succussions may alter permanently the physical-chemical properties of the solvent water. The nature of the phenomena here described still remains unexplained, but significant experimental results are obtained. J. Dittmann and G. HarischCharacterization of Differing Effects Caused by Homeopathically Prepared and Conventional Dilutions Using Cytochrome P450 2E1 and Other Enzymes as Detection SystemsThe journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine 1996 2:2,279-290.Target of investigation was to ascertain differences in the effects of homeopathic potencies (D) and equally concentrated conventional dilutions (V) on p-nitrocatechol formation catalyzed by CYP 2E1. Arsenicum album and potassium cyanatum (D) were compared to equivalent dilutions of As203 and KCN (V). Significant differences in enzyme activity were found. The difference of influence exists and this may be attributable to the manufacturing process of homeopathic drugs, namely, the stepwise dilution with intermediate agitation. K. Linde, W.B. Jonas, D. Melchart, D., et al., Critical Review and Meta-Analysis of Serial Agitated Dilutions in Experimental Toxicology Human and Experimental Toxicology, 1994, 13:481-92. This meta-analysis of 105 studies in toxicology showed that homeopathic medicines may be useful in treating toxic exposures. This meta-analysis was conducted by a similar group of researchers who recently published a meta-analysis on clinical studies in The Lancet. P.C. Endler, W. Pongratz, G. Kastberg, et al., The Effect of Highly Diluted Agitated Thyroxine on the Climbing Activity of Frogs Veterinary and Human Toxicology, 1994, 36:56. This, and the study below, show that a homeopathic medicine can influence the growth and development of tadpoles in water. P.C. Endler, W. Pongratz, R. van Wijk, et al., Transmission of Hormone Information by Non-molecular Means, FASEB Journal, 1994, 8, Abs.2313. This, and the study above, show that a homeopathic medicine can influence the growth and development of tadpoles in water. J. Benveniste, P.C. Endler and J. Schulte, (eds.), Further Biological Effects Induced by Ultra High Dilutions: Inhibition by a Magnetic Field," in Ultra High Dilution,Dordrecht: Kluwer Academic, 1994, 35. This, and the study below, show that certain magnetic fields can neutralize the effects of a homeopathic medicine. J. Benveniste, B. Arnoux, L. Hadji, Highly Dilute Antigen Increases Coronary Flow of Isolated Hart from Immunized Guinea-pigs. FASEB Journal, 1992, 6:Abs.1610. This, and the study above, show that certain magnetic fields can neutralize the effects of a homeopathic medicine. E. Davenas, B. Poitevin, and J. Benveniste Effect on Mouse Peritoneal Macrophages of Orally Administered Very High Dilutions of Silica European Journal of Pharmacology, April, 1987, 135:313-319. This study showed Silica 6C and Silica 10C induced a statistically significant increase in in immune function, as measured in macrophages in the blood of mice.Paolo Bellavite and Andrea Signorini The Emerging Science of Homeopathy: Complexity, Biodynamics, and Nanopharmacology.Berkeley: North Atlantic, 2002. This is the most notable book on homeopathic research to date. There is also some excellent chapters that present compelling theories on how homeopathic medicines may work, in the light of new physics, biophysics, fractals, chaos, and complexity theory. Some chapters are technical. P.C. Endler and J. Schulte (editors) Ultra High Dilution: Physiology and Physics Dordrecht: Kluwer Academic, 1994. A compilation of articles on basic science research. Very technical. A second volume, entitled Fundamental Research Ultra High Dilutions and Homeopathy, Dordrecht: Kluwer Academic, was published in 1998. Roeland van Wijk and Fred A.C. Wiegant Cultured Mammalian Cells in Homeopathy Research: The Similia Principle in Self-Recovery. Utrecht: University of Utrecht, 1994. This is a highly technical book which discusses research by cell biologists. This research appears to verify the homeopathic principle of similars. M. Doutremepuich (ed.) Ultra-Low Doses. Washington, DC/London: Taylor and Francis, 1991. This is a compilation of articles on basic science research. Very technical.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.minimum.com/reviews/tlreipat.htm _ Many Americans are still unaware that there is a time-tested, curative and nontoxic medical system available to them in this country: homeopathy. *Although it is the second most widely used medicine in the world* (after Chinese medicine), and was the only effective medicine used against the great influenza epidemic in the early part of this century, *it remains relatively unknown in the U.S. The only reason for this is the pharmaceutical bias of the established medical monopoly, and that is changing.* One difference between homeopathic remedies and pharmaceutical drugs is that the latter often suppress symptoms, instead of curing them. This may generate symptoms at a deeper and more serious level. _


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## garywest (Apr 7, 2000)

hi Kel and folks at last a response to HOMEOPATHY!I hav ebeen homeopathy for the last year and half . STarted in feb. 2002. ONE WORD! I AM FEELING GREAT!!Well I will be wrting in details in my subsequent posts. But for all those skeptics, all i can say is"TO each his/her own opinion"I am completely off prescription meds and i will NEVER take them again for whatever illness.One thing i cannot stress enough is you gotta find a homeopath who has the skills and the right approach. I am lucky I found one here in INDIA.As you must have read in my previous posts all the major symptoms are reduced That is not to say i am cured. I do have bad days . Get angry sometimes and do have change in bowel movements but that is not as frequent as before i was on homeopathy. Considerably reduced.Anxiety very much reducedNo depression at allANger greatky reducedWeight gain - YES I am 5'10" i was 105lbs because of ibs now i am still undereweight but now my weight is 130lbs so i was 50kgs now i am 60kgs approx.One thing is quite certain when it comes to IBS and this Eric has stresses and which all of us i am sure would agreeis its MIND-GUT coonection.The mind controls the gut reaction and consequently our fight or flight mechanism reactions.THERE ARE NO SIDE EEFECTS FROM HOMEOPATHY NONE WHAT SOEVER .ITS NOT A PLACEBOIf it was trust me i woul dbe back on prescription meds.]I have had IBS since last 15 years but thanks to homeopathy I HAVE GOT BETTER.Kel u must have read from my previous posts that i was in USA for 9years . I lost my job so many times cause of this dreaded IBS . I have been on several medsAMytryptilineZoloftMetachlopramideLibraxBentylThe side effects i had from stopping Zoloft suddenly wre horrendous My emotions went haywire I was not told about the side effects from the doc Without naming him he was from Univ of Penn Hospital.There are not many "skilled" homeopaths in USA ANd some well they r just QUACKS who are in it for the money and preying on pateints who r willing to spend $$$ trying to get rid of this IBS.Kel feel free to email me at gary5500###hotmail.com . I will reply.As to how homeopathy works u can go to number of informative sites on homeopathyFor lack of time i am not posting the sites for now.As for the skeptics let me just say i stopped posting replies You get to a point where one has to make choices I have made mine and boy am i glad! ITs ad the FDA will not let homeopathy as an alternative branch of medicine "flourish" in USA as u well know prescription meds is BIG $$$.No wonder americans are getting them now fronm CANADA. NOW i dont wanna ellaborate on this subject right now.However i will post in dteails later ITs sunday here i gotta go out for some fresh air!LOLtake care regardsGary (in India)


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Sure they want something really effective, but what if it ISN'T that effective or only partially and something else comes along to take its place,


Drugs that aren't effective is largely because that's the best that they have got at the time (which includes many drugs today). Thatï¿½s why keep they working to make better drugs. Thatï¿½s true for pretty much every industry though.


> quote:Surely drug manufacturers must be afraid of alternative medicines when a LOT of people are turning to these alternatives.


I doubt they are worried about that much; they are probably worried about losing profits to foreign imports.


> quote:don't want people to know about the easy cures that don't cost anything.


Easy cures*???* Are you sure that someone hasn't slipped you a drug?









> quote:I think they are VERY scared about the revolution in medicine that is coming which is geared to more natural approaches / more patient accessible medicine.


Again, I doubt they worry about this; right now, foreign imports seems to be the biggest concern. Next to that it is loosing patents to generics. Then comes worry about the next generation of drugs; innovation has slowed, but that seems to be an internal matter, which they will hopefully get fixed soon.


> quote:Zelnorm - not an effective drug


This is a future prediction or do you have time machine? Can you tell us who wins the election, too? It will take a few years before those of in the current time will be at the point where we will have some info to judge its effectiveness.


> quote:You better go and warn Harvard U. that he is a FAKE.


They also have a psychiatrist who believes in


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## california123 (Jun 8, 2003)

I would bet there are people all over India just wishing they could get their hands on all those "awful" western medicines like penicillin, antibiotics, immodium, asprin, AIDS drugs, anti-coagulants/coagulants, even just clean drinking water--all those things we take for granted if we live in a first world country.


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## garywest (Apr 7, 2000)

hello folks again Been a dull lazy day so i am just checking responses here and VOILA!!what have we herepoints to california123 Now why was i so certain I would get some "sarcastic" reply to my post.hmmm. IS this a BB for the "developed" nations only?LOL!!or some of us "backward" folks like me from "third" world country - INDIA can respond too .(sarcastic grin)I thought this discussion was about IBS and not differences between developed and developing nations. OOPs have I stumbled upon the wrong site then? LOL!California I will "try" not to be too sarcastic. But that be difficult. Now folks like you live in an "insular" world who have do not think(?) to use the term losely "out of the box" and that is why my friend I do not waste my time and energy responding to posts such as yours. If not for Kel's post I would have just "screened" for posts as I rarely post on this site. OOPS!! Could it be that Homeopathy from a "backward" country is so effective that I dont simply bother to check this site anymore..hmmm ..THis is exactly the case. Oops did i drink that dirty water again and did the IBS reoccur? LOL!!Naaa I am safe here.california If i am assuming you have no idea or the faintest clue as to how homeopathy works, now do u? Or whats more instead of opening your mind to alternative medicines which for a FACT have helped millions you come here and ridicule people. Isnt "your" IBS worse enough? Or is that super clean EVIAN water you drink cured your IBS!!lol!!All I can say is that I am not "wasting" those precious "dollars" here in India. Just small change - "rupees" thats the currency in INDIA . As far as discussion goes am I not right that americans are spending more and more money seeking cures for various ailments thorugh alternative medicine. You can refer various issues of any reputed medical journals which states precisely that.And my dear friend HOMEOPATHY in fact originated from "developed" nation GERMANY (the "aryan" race nation") by Dr. Samuel Hahnemann. It has been used effectively in many countries including USA for over 200years. http://www.simillimum.com This is just one of the sites you may refer if at all.Now my next post will be in response to Kel's post in details.OOPs is my water safe? Yep it is.Take careRegardsGary (in "third" world INDIA)!


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

garywest, (i hope frostbite sees this)I am really glad that you saw this post. I was doing a search of the archives and i came across your post. Not long ago I was a FOOL. I thought that homeopathy was a borderline worthless scam (however, i thought that there might be a very weak response -- my mind was open a little). Afterall -- how could IT work????? It does not seem to obey any of the laws of medicine that I am familiar with. (gee, maybe that is the problem --- i am NOT familiar with something so i must AUTOMATICALLY reject it. this way i can continue to live in a very "predictable" world. a world without anymore added confusion.)Garywest, i may write you but i may also decide to post a question here that way everyone can see it. --- my remedy was a 1M nux vomica (strichnine --- rat poison). It has worked incredibly so far for a few of my problems. 1. i no longer have that sick feeling throughout the day (i had it EVERYDAY since around 1997) 2. I went from a "highly bothered", agitated, irritable person to a person who is relaxed, not bothered by everything 3. my brain has been stimulated (i was on drugs to accomplish this for the last 4 1/2 years) 4. happier personOn the down side, i seemed to have lost stool volume but i am not concerned because the biggest problem has completely disappeared --- the toxic/sick/drugged feeling that i lived with for several years through most of the day. When i reported this to the homeopath she became excited and wanted more details. She did NOT tell me what remedy she gave me so that i would not be influenced. However, if you were to look up the strichnine remedy you would see that it treats people who have a poisoned- sick- irritable feeling.Homeopathy just WORKS!!!!!!!! It does so because it is obeying the laws of physics and it IS much more advanced than the backward approach of supressing symptoms that is the backbone of western $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ medicine.The skeptical naysayers lose out big time. However, i feel sorry for them because they are just helpless people who have been brainwashed by corporate interests.I sure am glad that countries like India, France, Germany, Poland, Belgium, Russia, even England have not been blinded by the "Ad Men" and the Bean Counters (the accountants).garywest,the homeopath told me that she was actually wrestling between giving me the strichnine and giving me lycopodium. the lycopodium matches my description also and is especially good for people who have digestive problems.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

concerning that space alien, i think this CLEARLY illustrates the hazards of inter-galactic space travel and the devastating effect it can have on the skin.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: Could it be that Homeopathy from a "backward" country is so effective that I dont simply bother to check this site anymore..


Since we know homeopathy "works" by doing nothing (aka placebo), could it just mean that you had no problem to begin with or that your problem just cleared up on its own?


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## loulou (Jan 18, 2001)

The main point that I notice with homeopathy is that it either attracts the rudest people on the planet or brings to a fore all their rudness and hostility.Not only was california123 pointing out just how good we have it in first world countries but many of the third world countries do want the medicine we can get.I personally believe those on homeopathy are getting poisoned. When they first start taking it all their symptoms increase, but after a bit this goes away as their body adjusts to the poison. However, these people seem to lose all judgement and savagely attack others nonstop without reason. It's as though they lack any sort of civilized judgement.LouLou


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:those on homeopathy are getting poisoned.


Homeopathy is just a sugar pill. That's poisonous?


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## loulou (Jan 18, 2001)

Not sure that I ment that literally.







But why is it that those on homeopathy always seem to get much worse first? Especially if it's just sugar? Don't some of them have to brew these herbal teas? Or is it that I'm confusing it with acupuncture? Didn't Kel say she was injesting strychnine? Coumadin can also kill rats!


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: Since we know homeopathy "works" by doing nothing (aka placebo),


flux,just how exactly is it that you know for 100% certainty that homeopathy is doing nothing? I mean what exactly is it that has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is not something operating at the sub atomic level? What scientific series of experiments have conclusively shown this to be true ---- or are you just guessing? What science has proven to you that the British Lancet has published fake studies? What school did you earn your PhD in physics from? Where did you acquire your knowledge that the human body ONLY operates according to biochemical laws?You are telling me that you are so absolutely 100% convinced --beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is a worthless sugar pill that if some God came down to earth and FORCED you to sign a contract that stated:I, Flux, hereby swear upon this document that I am convinced that homeopathy is nothing but a big worthless hoax of a medical treatment, and that any positive effects are merely the result of a placebo effect. --- and I, flux, am so convinced of this that i am willing to be subjected to 5 years of uninterrupted extreme forms of torture. If I am wrong I will happily accept the most egregious forms of agony that has ever been afflicted upon any animal or human in the history of mankind. I will allow myself to be tortured in ways that far exceed any human's worst imagination -- multiple tools, gadgets, and fire bearing equipment (ex., bic lighters) will all be allowed.I, flux, will gladly submit myself to this because I am an all-knowing person who is NEVER wrong, and i am 100% positive that I have such an incredibly superior knowledge of physics, energy, matter, the human body, and everything else under the sun that there is no way i could EVER be wrong. In fact I am so sure of this fact that i will also submit every single one of my loved ones to the same cruel, horrible fate of extreme torture should I happen to have made a giant goof on this issue of homeopathy.I think I know the answer to this one. All of a sudden you just came up with an ounce of doubt --right??? gee- maybe you don't understand things so well -- now do you????now you are starting to recall --- "ahhh, well, i took physics in high school and i did not like it so much" ...."ahhh, i never took it in college, but i had plenty of chemistry and biology -- does that count??" NO it does NOT count!!!"ahhh, well, maybe I, ahhh, maybe I was kind of guessing about things there" ....." okay kel, you are right --- i was just playing the role of big shot --- i really never even thoroughly examined the subject -- i was just being my typical depressed self" ....." ahhh, torture is kind of an extreme form of punishment in case I'm wrong --- after all I am somewhat ignorant in physics and i certainly don't know everything ---- despite my RAGING ego"


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:why is it that those on homeopathy always seem to get much worse first? Especially if it's just sugar? Don't some of them have to brew these herbal teas?


Thatï¿½s like asking why they sometimes improve.


> quote:just how exactly is it that you know for 100% certainty that homeopathy is doing nothing?


Common sense is actually all thatï¿½s needed, but experiments have been done and have, in fact, confirmed our common sense, which is a good thing.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Flux,are you talking about ALL OF THESE STUDIES??????????????????????????***********************************************K. Linde, N. Clausius, G. Ramirez, et al., Are the Clinical Effects of Homeopathy Placebo Effects? A Meta-analysis of Placebo-Controlled Trials Lancet, September 20, 1997, 350:834-843. This state of the art meta analysis reviewed 186 studies, 89 of which fit pre-defined criteria. Rather than count and compare the number of trials which show efficacy of treatment, the researchers pooled the data from the various studies to assess data. The results showed that patients taking homeopathic medicines were 2.45 times more likely to experience a positive therapeutic effect than placebo. J. Kleijnen, P. Knipschild, G. ter Riet, Clinical Trials of Homeopathy British Medical Journal, February 9, 1991, 302:316-323. This is the most widely cited meta-analysis of clinical research prior to 1991. This meta-analysis reviewed 107 studies of homeopathic medicines, 81 of which (or 77%) showed positive effect. Of the best 22 studies, 15 showed efficacy. The researchers concluded: "The evidence presented in this review would probably be sufficient for establishing homeopathy as a regular treatment for certain indications." Further, "The amount of positive evidence even among the best studies came as a surprise to us." C. N. Shealy, MD, R.P. Thomlinson, V. Borgmeyer,Osteoarthritic Pain: A Comparison of Homeopathy and AcetaminophenAmerican Journal of Pain Management, 1998;8:89-91A double-blinded study to document the relative efficacy of homeopathic remedies in comparison to acetaminophen for the treatment of pain associated with osteoarthritis (OA) among 65 patients. An IRB approved protocol. Results of the study documented better pain relief in the homeopathic group (55% achieved measured relief from homeopathy as compared to 38% from acetaminophen); however, the superiority of this treatment, in comparison with the acetaminophen group, did not reach statistical significance. The investigators conclude that homeopathic treatments for pain in OA patients appear to be safe and at least as effective as acetaminophen, and are without its potential adverse effects including compromise to both liver and kidney function. Many of the patients asked to continue with the homeopathic treatment. M. Weiser, W. Strosser, P. Klein,Homeopathic vs. Conventional Treatment of Vertigo: A Randomized Double-Blind Controlled Clinical Study Archives of Otolaryngology--Head and Neck Surgery, August, 1998, 124:879-885. This was a study with 119 subjects with various types of vertigo, half of whom were given a homeopathic medicine (a combination of four homeopathic medicines) and half were given a leading conventional drug in Europe for vertigo, betahistine hydrochloride. The homeopathic medicines were found to be similarly effective and significantly safer than the conventional control. D. Reilly, M. Taylor, N. Beattie, et al., Is Evidence for Homoeopathy Reproducible? Lancet, December 10, 1994, 344:1601-6. This study successfully reproduced evidence from two previous double-blinded trials all of which used the same model of homeopathic immunotherapy in inhalant allergy. In this third study, 9 of 11 patients on homeopathic treatment improved compared to only 5 of 13 patients on placebo. The researchers concluded that either homeopathic medicines work or controlled studies don't. Their work has again be recently replicated and is submitted for publication. (See Is Homeopathy a Placebo Response? Lancet 1986, below.) J. Jacobs, L. Jimenez, S. Gloyd, Treatment of Acute Childhood Diarrhea with Homeopathic Medicine: A Randomized Clinical Trial in Nicaragua, Pediatrics, May 1994, 93,5:719-25. This study was the first on homeopathy to be published in an American medical journal. The study compared individualized high potency homeopathic preparations against a placebo in 81 children, between ages 6 mo. and 5 yrs., suffering with acute diarrhea. The treatment group benefited from a statistically significant 15% decrease in duration. The authors noted that the clinical significance would extend to decreasing dehydration and postdiarrheal malnutrition and a significant reduction in morbidity. E. Ernst, T. Saradeth, and K.L. Resch, Complementary Treatment of Varicose Veins: A Randomized Placebo-controlled, Double-Blind Trial, Phlebology, 1990, 5:157-163. This study of 61 patients showed a 44% improvement in venous filling time in the homeopathic treated group when compared with placebo. P. Fisher, A. Greenwood, E.C. Huskisson, et al., Effect of Homoeopathic Treatment on Fibrositis British Medical Journal, August 5, 1989, 299:365-66. This trial was double-blind with a crossover design, comparing R toxicodendron to a placebo in 30 patients all suffering from an identical syndrome identified as the admission criteria. It showed a significant reduction in tender spots, by 25%, when patients were given the homeopathic medicine, as compared to when they were given the placebo. D. Reilly, M. Taylor, C. McSherry, Is Homeopathy a Placebo Response? Controlled Trial of Homeopathic Potency with Pollen in Hayfever as Model, Lancet, October 18, 1986, 881-86. The double-blind study compared a high dilution homeopathic preparation of grass pollens against a placebo in 144 patients with active hay fever. The study method considered pollen counts, aggravation in symptoms and use of antihistamines and concluded that patients using homeopathy showed greater improvement in symptoms than those on placebo, and that this difference was reflected in a significantly reduced need for antihistamines among the homeopathically treated group. The results confirmed those of the pilot study and demonstrate that homeopathic potencies show effects distinct from those of the placeboVittorio Elia and Marcella NiccoliThermodynamics of extremely diluted aqueous solutions. Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, June 1999An extensive thermodynamic study has been carried out on aqueous solutions obtained through successive dilutions and succussions of 1% in weight of some solutes up to extremely diluted solutions, (less than 1x10-5 mol kg-1) obtained via several 1/100 successive dilution processes. The interaction of acids or bases with the extremely diluted solutions has been studied calorimetrically at 25ï¿½C. Measurements have been performed of the heats of mixing of acid or basic solutions, having different concentrations, with bidistilled water or with the extremely diluted solutions. Despite the extreme dilution of the solutions, an exothermic heat of mixing in excess has been found, in about the 92% of the cases, with respect to the corresponding heat of mixing with the untreated solvent. Here [it is shown] that successive dilutions and succussions may alter permanently the physical-chemical properties of the solvent water. The nature of the phenomena here described still remains unexplained, but significant experimental results are obtained. J. Dittmann and G. HarischCharacterization of Differing Effects Caused by Homeopathically Prepared and Conventional Dilutions Using Cytochrome P450 2E1 and Other Enzymes as Detection SystemsThe journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine 1996 2:2,279-290.Target of investigation was to ascertain differences in the effects of homeopathic potencies (D) and equally concentrated conventional dilutions (V) on p-nitrocatechol formation catalyzed by CYP 2E1. Arsenicum album and potassium cyanatum (D) were compared to equivalent dilutions of As203 and KCN (V). Significant differences in enzyme activity were found. The difference of influence exists and this may be attributable to the manufacturing process of homeopathic drugs, namely, the stepwise dilution with intermediate agitation. K. Linde, W.B. Jonas, D. Melchart, D., et al., Critical Review and Meta-Analysis of Serial Agitated Dilutions in Experimental Toxicology Human and Experimental Toxicology, 1994, 13:481-92. This meta-analysis of 105 studies in toxicology showed that homeopathic medicines may be useful in treating toxic exposures. This meta-analysis was conducted by a similar group of researchers who recently published a meta-analysis on clinical studies in The Lancet. P.C. Endler, W. Pongratz, G. Kastberg, et al., The Effect of Highly Diluted Agitated Thyroxine on the Climbing Activity of Frogs Veterinary and Human Toxicology, 1994, 36:56. This, and the study below, show that a homeopathic medicine can influence the growth and development of tadpoles in water. P.C. Endler, W. Pongratz, R. van Wijk, et al., Transmission of Hormone Information by Non-molecular Means, FASEB Journal, 1994, 8, Abs.2313. This, and the study above, show that a homeopathic medicine can influence the growth and development of tadpoles in water. J. Benveniste, P.C. Endler and J. Schulte, (eds.), Further Biological Effects Induced by Ultra High Dilutions: Inhibition by a Magnetic Field," in Ultra High Dilution,Dordrecht: Kluwer Academic, 1994, 35. This, and the study below, show that certain magnetic fields can neutralize the effects of a homeopathic medicine. J. Benveniste, B. Arnoux, L. Hadji, Highly Dilute Antigen Increases Coronary Flow of Isolated Hart from Immunized Guinea-pigs. FASEB Journal, 1992, 6:Abs.1610. This, and the study above, show that certain magnetic fields can neutralize the effects of a homeopathic medicine. E. Davenas, B. Poitevin, and J. Benveniste Effect on Mouse Peritoneal Macrophages of Orally Administered Very High Dilutions of Silica European Journal of Pharmacology, April, 1987, 135:313-319. This study showed Silica 6C and Silica 10C induced a statistically significant increase in in immune function, as measured in macrophages in the blood of mice.Paolo Bellavite and Andrea Signorini The Emerging Science of Homeopathy: Complexity, Biodynamics, and Nanopharmacology.Berkeley: North Atlantic, 2002. This is the most notable book on homeopathic research to date. There is also some excellent chapters that present compelling theories on how homeopathic medicines may work, in the light of new physics, biophysics, fractals, chaos, and complexity theory. Some chapters are technical. P.C. Endler and J. Schulte (editors) Ultra High Dilution: Physiology and Physics Dordrecht: Kluwer Academic, 1994. A compilation of articles on basic science research. Very technical. A second volume, entitled Fundamental Research Ultra High Dilutions and Homeopathy, Dordrecht: Kluwer Academic, was published in 1998. Roeland van Wijk and Fred A.C. Wiegant Cultured Mammalian Cells in Homeopathy Research: The Similia Principle in Self-Recovery. Utrecht: University of Utrecht, 1994. This is a highly technical book which discusses research by cell biologists. This research appears to verify the homeopathic principle of similars. M. Doutremepuich (ed.) Ultra-Low Doses. Washington, DC/London: Taylor and Francis, 1991. This is a compilation of articles on basic science research. Very technical.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: Common sense is actually all that's needed


Okay, i think you just answered my question. *What you are saying is that you are RELYING on COMMON SENSE.* That is basically what you are saying -- you base your beliefs on common sense.This seems similar to the "common sense" that allowed EVERYONE to KNOW that the earth was the center of the universe --- right??? (i mean -- all any person had to do was look up in the sky and *CLEARLY* see that it was the sun that was moving around the earth NOT the earth moving around the sun --- right????)This same common sense is the reason that poor, young semmelweis was laughed at and persecuted for his belief that doctors should wash their hands before delivering babies --- right???This is the same COMMON SENSE that has repeatedly been thwarted time and time again throughout the ages once the mechanism becomes understood ---- correct????Well, folks, THERE YOU HAVE IT!!!!! Flux is convinced that it is fake due to his COMMON SENSE. (this is also from the same person who denies that such a thing as food intolerance is a possibility)Flux,tell me more about these so-called experiments that prove homeopathy is a scam. --- and please, i don't want to see any studies that come from a journal of pharmacology (these studies are hand picked to support the editors bias towards big drug companies)*******************************************I am really intrigued with this "common sense" thing. tell me more about this common sense.Does your common sense tell you that accupuncture is fake also???? if a needle is stuck in someones forearm or ear and it has an effect on some distant organ does your *"COMMON SENSE" * tell you that the chinese are scamming us???


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

J. Kleijnen, P. Knipschild, G. ter Riet, Clinical Trials of Homeopathy British Medical Journal, February 9, 1991, 302:316-323. This is the most widely cited meta-analysis of clinical research prior to 1991. This meta-analysis reviewed 107 studies of homeopathic medicines, 81 of which (or 77%) showed positive effect. Of the best 22 studies, 15 showed efficacy. The researchers concluded: *"The evidence presented in this review would probably be sufficient for establishing homeopathy as a regular treatment for certain indications." Further, "The amount of positive evidence even among the best studies came as a surprise to us." * ************************************************Is this one of those experiments that has you so convinced?????************************************************


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

Looks like you fallen back to that


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

C'mon fluxy you can do better than that.Are you meaning to say that the British Lancet and the British Medical Journal are Junk Journals???*************************************************


> quote: Further, "The amount of positive evidence even among the best studies came as a surprise to us."


The above quote is from the study that I just posted. This CLEARLY illustrates that we ALL are BIASED against homeopathy including scientists who are supposed to be impartial. I was very biased against it because it did not mesh with anything that I was familiar with.This seems to be the perfect example of what homeopathy is up against. it is faced with the extreme bias against it right from the get go.It seems that it has the additional burden of being forced to compete with a Doctor's/Scientist's existing range or scope of knowledge. This can be especially disconcerting to someone who has spent their ENTIRE life studying --- for example --- exactly how serotonin affects the synapse. A scientist who is studying something like this has an awful lot of time invested in it and is not so willing to embrace a healing method that is so unconventional.************************************************Well, the important business is taken care of ---- we have some excellent studies that prove that homeopathy is doing something.I guess this is why so many european doctors and indians and dozens of other cultures and countries continue to practice this healing method ---- It WORKS!!!!It is PHYSICS!!!!!!!


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Are you meaning to say that the British Lancet and the British Medical Journal are Junk Journals???


No, but once in a rare while, a junk article makes it through.









> quote:Further, "The amount of positive evidence even among the best studies came as a surprise to us."


That should have been a (common sense) hint that their study was flawed.


> quote:It is PHYSICS!!!!!!!


Just as







is physics


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

flux, xylose really is a sugar that the huma.... (WAIT!!!!! -------- your XYLOSE error was last week. sorry, i got mixed up there. we are on homeopathy)


> quote: J. Kleijnen, P. Knipschild, G. ter Riet, Clinical Trials of Homeopathy British Medical Journal, February 9, 1991, 302:316-323. This is the most widely cited meta-analysis of clinical research prior to 1991. *This meta-analysis reviewed 107 studies of homeopathic medicines, 81 of which (or 77%) showed positive effect.* Of the best 22 studies, 15 showed efficacy. The researchers concluded: "The evidence presented in this review would probably be sufficient for establishing homeopathy as a regular treatment for certain indications." Further, "The amount of positive evidence even among the best studies came as a surprise to us."


we are not talking about just one study here. this is a meta-analysis.also, there are countless other studies showing efficacy.***********************************************based on dozens of positive testimonials (including frostbite who mentions that his treatment may have caused a problem), and based on several respected studies. I think that people who come here and read through everything very carefully must at least walk away thinking that there is a strong possibility that homeopathy does what is claimed.this is why it has survived for over 200 years. this is why it is the 2nd leading healing method in the world today (chinese medicine is #1).***********************************************It is PHYSICS!!! PLAIN AND SIMPLE IT IS PHYSICS.it is using some type of "imprinting" from a known substance onto subatomic matter via kinetic energy. flux -- i am still waiting for a discourse from you explaining in quantum physics and/or vibrational string theory exactly why subatomic particles can NOT pick up the energy of a substance.what it boils down to is you can't do it. therefore, you are just using your "COMMON SENSE" to conclude that it is worthless. Why do you think that you know so much more than all of the french and german doctors who use homeopathy? how about the british doctors who refer their patients to a homeopath after they give up on them?********************************************garywest, i read your testimonial and based on what i have experienced so far I understand what you described. it is still early in my treatment so i don't know where it will lead me but if the future is anything like the past 6 weeks then i could not be happier.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Well, well, well what do we have here??? It seems that kel has found something from the California Institute of Technology concerning Homeopathy.************************************************ http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf121/sf121p07.htm HOW HOMEOPATHY MIGHT WORKAlthough some people swear to the efficacy of homeopathy's "remedies," skeptics have been fond of pointing out that these fluids are so dilute that no molecules of the active ingredients are likely to remain. Believers respond that the fluid remedies somehow retain the "essence" of the active ingredient. In effect, they maintain that water has a "memory." No wonder mainstream scientists scoff at homeopathy. *But wait, perhaps water can have a memory! * A Cal Tech chemist has put extremely dilute solutions under his electron microscope and found that some contain strange "ice" crystals, even though room temperature and pressure prevail. Called "IE crystals," they are produced through the action of ions. They are stable even at higher temperatures. Subsequently, an immunologist at the University of California at Los Angeles discovered that the IE crystals can stimulate parts of the immune system. Water containing these strange forms of ice show a hundred times more bioactivity than plain water. (Anonymous; "Homeopathy and IE Crystals," Spectrum, p. 18, November/ December 1998. Cr. E. Fegert) Comment. Of course, we want to see independent confirmations of the Cal Tech and UCLA work *, but we hope they will be objective rather than the usual knee-jerk reactions to homeopathy. * See SF#59 and SF#69 for past confrontations over homeopathy. *************************************************Of course you are going to get a KNEE-JERK reaction. ---especially from the people that are highly disturbed (hey, i have to point the finger at myself also --- i was as guilty as the next person). I am convinced that the more disturbed and/or "invested" a person is then the more that they are unwilling to open their mind to the possibility that an "AMAZING" healing treatment exists outside of orthodox medical methods. A method that operates on a subatomic physics scale instead of the traditional biochemical manipulation method. (what i mean by "invested" is a person who has spent years studying something but is now FORCED to reexamine a lot of his/her methods. a HUMBLE scientist/doctor can make the shift much easier than a raging egomaniac with an inferiority complex -- i am not naming names but just speaking in general terms.)


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:we are not talking about just one study here. this is a meta-analysis. also, there are countless other studies showing efficacy.


That's begging the question, for all the studies were:









> quote:It seems that kel has found something from the California Institute of Technology concerning Homeopathy


Trying to impersonate this guy..first with *your* error about the xylose and again with homeopathy..


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Once again you are making accusations that are not being backed up. The meta-analysis contained close to 100 experiments that ALL gave positive results. You can't just ignore and pretend that it does not exist.(wait ---- you CAN pretend that it does not exist if you are so steadfast in your erroneous belief that homeopathy is fake) (that is the funny thing about the human mind -- once we have an idea on how something "should be" we are unable and unwilling to change) (this is why it takes decades --sometimes-- for new information to become accepted)************************************************** http://www.hmedicine.com/news/guide/ncsu.php *Researchers at CalTech have discovered magnetic particles throughout the human brain. The Cal Tech team speculates that homeopathic dilutions create a higher level of the electromagnetic field, thus triggering the defense mechanisms of the body * It seems that the boys at Cal Tech have been hard at work. Apparently they discovered that magnetic particles called MAGNETITE is found throughout the brain. I wonder if this could be part of the "all elusive" BRAIN -- GUT disturbance that seems to be a part of a lot of our dysfunction??? Could it be that something has altered our brains ability to issue the proper commands that must be issued in order to adequately protect and heal the body???Could it be that the homeopathic medicines are able to somehow SHOCK the brain's magnetite into some type of correct alignment???? ---Thereby initiating the healing effect???It is very possible especially now that it has been established that these medicines do indeed transfer some type of memory onto a liquid solution. Anyone out there a physicist?*************************************************I am starting to think that you -- yes, you flux -- and eric are on to something when you speak of this "brain-gut" connection.Although I believe that the problem of IBS starts in the gut, i am beginning to see that there is something going on in the brain that does not allow ourselves to heal. (i think that homeopathy is the little bit of magic that can have a profound impact on something within our brain that lights the "fuse of healing".)---But it is making me wonder about hypnotherapy. I am beginning to suspect that hypnotherapy is able to elicit some type of effect that runs parallel to homeopathy. I am speculating that hypnotherapy may allow the brain some type of "window" in which it can reorganize the processes of the body.The deep state of relaxation that i experienced with a certain hypnotist was a state of relaxation that i had not experienced in a couple of decades. i wonder if this deep state could allow some type of "whole-body" healing.*************************************************i think that this stanford PhD is correct about her child's autism being cured by homeopathy. I need to read her book. I know that you did not read her book and therefore you can not make the claim that she is deluding us --- you are just guessing at that.


> quote: http://www.mercola.com/2003/aug/23/impossible_cure.htm In "Impossible Cure: The Promise of Homeopathy," author Amy Lansky tells the incredible story of how she used homeopathy to cure her son of autism. Although Lansky is not a medical professional, she has a Ph.D. from Stanford and worked for NASA as a researcher. She has more than enough scientific training to provide a compelling and easy to understand description of how homeopathy can be used to treat "incurable conditions" like autism. Along with this compelling testimonial, Lansky provides an in-depth account on the history, philosophy and practice of homeopathy, as well as dozens of other testimonials on the power of homeopathy in curing various health problems. I have never been formally trained in homeopathy, and as a result I don't use much of it in my practice, but I am convinced it can be used as an effective tool for many conditions if properly utilized. There are many complexities to its optimal implementation, and Lansky provides an excellent start for someone beginning to explore this modality.


Ahhhh! *The Impossible Cure* To dream the impossible dream To fight the unbeatable foe To bear with unbearable sorrow To run where the brave dare not go. To right the unrightable wrong To be better far than you are To try when you arms are to weary To reach the unreachable star This is my quest, to follow that star, No matter how hopeless, no matter how far To fight for the right without question or pause,To be willing to march into hell for a heavenly cause And I know, if I'll only be true to this glorious quest That my heart will lie peaceful and calm when I'm laid to my rest. And the world will be better for this That one man scorned and covered with scars Still strove with his last ounce of courage To reach the unreachable star! *************************************************I can not say for sure what the limits are for homeopathy, but the more I research the more I come to discover that if it is used correctly it can provide a valuable tool to healing the body.I will take me many more months before I know what else it can do for me --- but I am responding the same way that garywest is responding. by the way, garywest are you out there?? --- this is the united states calling, are you out there -- please respond.I suspect that there is some efficacy for stubborn chronic conditions such as crohn's disease and even CFIDS. the literature states this and i can see it happening but until i am completely cured of these severe hypersensitive reactions then i need to wait and see.***********************************************for tomorrow we have some mind-blowing stats on how homeopathy has had outstanding results with infectious disease back in the 19th century.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

simply fascinating! -- and to think that you can do it ALL for just $7.95.for people who want to roll the dice and do it themselves (okay, frostbite, i know that this is NOT the prudent thing to do...) --- then i would say to go to the library and check out the book by Andrew Lockie http://www.allbookstores.com/browse/Author/Lockie,%20Andrew (or buy it used for under $10.00) And then spend 1 hour on the 14 section exam. take the test twice if you have to. total it up and see what your top 3 constitutional remedies are. then read the descriptions to see if it is a close match then go back to the library and get a book by Vinton Mccabe called Practical homeopathy http://www.fetchbook.info/search_Vinton_Mc...hBy_Author.html and read his descriptions of your top 3 constitutional remedies and use this to narrow your choice.once again i do not recommend this approach but if homeopathy is nothing more than a sugar pill -- all you are out is a few dollars. MOST IMPORTANT --- order a 1M dose from a reputable company such as Boiron or similar company. ---- and FOLLOW the guidelines EXACTLY as far as the do's and don't(s). take about 6 to 8 pellets and then don't do anything for the next couple of months. WARNING --- i have a laxative homeopathic preparation and it causes SEVERE cramps EVERY time I take it. It obviously is "PROVING" the remedy and this is VERY BAD. This is what frostbite is referring to about the DANGERS of homeopathy.************************************************* http://www.healingwithhomeopathy.net/introduc.htm According to Trevor Cook, Ph.D., DI Hom., President of the United Kingdom Homeopathic Medical Association, the explanation of the therapeutic action of the highly dilute homeopathic remedies appears to lie in the domain of quantum physics and the emerging field of energy medicine. A study using nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) imaging demonstrated distinctive readings of subatomic activity in twenty-three different homeopathic remedies. This potency was not demonstrated in placebos (substances having no pharmacological effect). Some researchers believe that the specific electromagnetic frequency of the original substance is imprinted in the homeopathic remedy through the process of successive dilution and succession, says Dr. Cook. The distinguished Italian physicist Emilio del Giudici has set forth a theory that helps explain homeopathy's mode of therapeutic action. Del Giudici proposes that water molecules form structures capable of storing minute electromagnetic signals. *This proposition is given added weight by the findings of Dr. Wolfgang Ludwig, a German biophysicist, who has demonstrated in preliminary research that homeopathic substances give off measurable electromagnetic signals. These signals show that specific frequencies are dominant in each homeopathic substance.* _If del Giudici's model is accurate, a homeopathic remedy may convey an electromagnetic "message" to the body that matches the specific electromagnetic frequency or pattern of an illness in order to stimulate the body's natural healing response. _ What Dr. Hahnemann may have been doing in his empirical research was unwittingly "matching the frequencies of the plant extract with the frequency of the [patient's] illness."


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:The meta-analysis contained close to 100 experiments that ALL gave positive results. You can't just ignore and pretend that it does not exist


*WE KNOW FOR ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY THAT ALL OF THE STUDIES GOT *







*RESULT*However, I agree that itï¿½s appears very fishy that apparently professional scientists cannot peform what should be simple experiments get very clear and obvious negative results. But there *is* an explanation. Here is the lead editorial in response to the ï¿½meta-analysisï¿½


> quote:THE LANCET COMMENTARY Homoeopathy trials: going nowhere See page 834 Plain water is used as a blank control for PCR. If DNA can be amplified from it, there is contamination and the dayï¿½s run is dismissed. What has this point got to do with the meta-analysis on homoeopathy that Klaus Linde and colleagues report in todayï¿½s Lancet? Linde et al say that homoeopathy is an excellent testcase for the assessment of alternative medicine, since it is amenable to randomisation and double-blinding, the hallmarks of proper methodological evaluation of medical interventions. In fact it is more than that: it is also a blank control. The problem with homoeopathy is not that there is no explanation for its possible action. If there is no explanation for the action of an agent, one might still give it the benefit of the doubt under certain conditions. The problem with homoeopathy is that the ï¿½infinite dilutionsï¿½ of the agents used cannot possibly produce any effect. A randomised trial of ï¿½solvent onlyï¿½ versus ï¿½infinite dilutionsï¿½ is a game of chance between two placebos. How then did a blank give a significant result? The meta-analysis is completely state of the art. The authors have carefully evaluated known biases. They used a funnel plot to look at the results: if the difference in outcomes between randomised trials is due only to chance, there should be a funnel-shaped scatter on both sides of the grand mean (the average of all results); if there is publication bias, there should be a gap on the negative side of the plot. Linde et al find a bunch of outliers among the positive trials. Nevertheless, they dismiss publication bias as the final explanation because of a calculation about how many trials must have been left unpublished to explain the positive meta-analysis: that number is impossibly large. Another explanation for the findings is a ï¿½willingness to pleaseï¿½ in randomised trials. In a meta-analysis of low-molecular-weight-heparin prophylaxis for deep venous thrombosis, trials with a slightly lower quality score (arbitrary, of course) showed the desired effect (less thrombosis and less bleeding) more strongly than did trials with higher scores.1 Again, Linde et al dismiss such speculation when they offer a subgroup analysis of the more rigorous trials only. As the ultimate in ï¿½leaning over backwardsï¿½ to show the robustness of their findings, the authors present an analysis of the best randomised trials with the highest dilutions; again the effect is confirmed. A last point is ï¿½specificityï¿½. The authors had to combine trials with very different indications because the number of trials for each indication was too small. Such lumping should not be condemned straightaway. For example, had all trials on antibiotics in bacterial infections been lumped together in the early days of their introduction, a positive overall effect would also have been expected. When contamination is detected in a PCR laboratory, there is a routine for tracing and clearing the contaminant. If the contamination persists, the problem could be close to insoluble. People have been known to move to other buildings to get away from unresolvable PCR contamination. The results of the meta-analysis on homoeopathy are equally unsettling because of the general belief that overviews of randomised trials, conducted with methodological rigour, will indicate what the true evidence is. However, unknown and unidentifiable sources of bias seem to exist in randomised trials.2 Such bias might also be the explanation for the divergence between large randomised trials and meta-analysesï¿½in which case it is not possible to state which is right, at least not on methodological grounds alone.3 The results are easier to live with for those investigators with Bayesian inclinations. In following Bayesian reasoning, an investigator would not start any trial on homoeopathy because of the lack of a credible prior hypothesis and the possibility that just by chance the results might turn out to be at odds with established chemical and physical bases of pharmacologyï¿½that prospect would be too high a price to pay. Bayesian investigators will remain unimpressed by the results of homoeopathy trials; when there is no convincing theory underlying a trial, the results will remain uninterpretable. Bayesianism, however, also explicitly introduces the subjectivity of ï¿½expert opinionï¿½, and that is the very thing that randomised trials and their overviews were thought to circumvent. Whatever is happening in randomised trials of homoeopathy might also be happening in randomised trials of allopathic medicine, especially when the stakes are high. It might be impossible to identify false-positive findings in trials of allopathic medicines, because our belief in the proposed mechanisms could blind us to the possibility that the trial results are wrong. This pitfall brings out the essential problem that is at the root of the role of evidence in medicine: what is fact? The answer from fields as diverse as history and the philosophy of science has been remarkably similar: events become ï¿½factsï¿½ when they are invoked to support a theory.4,5 Jan P VandenbrouckeDepartment of Clinical Epidemiology, University of Leiden, 2300 RC Leiden, Netherlands1 Nurmohamed MT, Rosendaal FR, Bï¿½ller HR, et al. Low molecular weight heparin versus standard heparin in general and orthopedic surgery: a meta-analysis. Lancet 1992; 340: 152-56. 2 Altman DG, Dorï¿½ CJ. Randomisation and baseline comparisons in clinical trials . Lancet 1990; 335: 149-53. 3 Bailar III JC. The promise and problems of meta-analysis. N Engl J Med 1997; 337: 559-61. 4 Carr EH. The historian and his facts. In: Carr EH. What is history? Uxbridgeenguin Books, 1964. 5 Fleck L. Genesis and development of a scientific fact. In: Trenn ThJ, Merton RK,eds. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979. Vol 350 ï¿½ September 20, 1997


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: The problem with homoeopathy is not that there is no explanation for its possible action. If there is no explanation for the action of an agent, one might still give it the benefit of the doubt under certain conditions. The problem with homoeopathy is that the "infinite dilutions" of the agents used cannot possibly produce any effect.


There you have it ------- he is just one of 100's of thousands --- who just like me a while ago ---- JUMPS to a CONCLUSION and from that conclusion he constructs his little story.He automatically assumes that it is inert and that is HIS MISTAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!He makes an assumption and that is his downfall.************************************************This is from a Medical Doctor here in the united states who experiences the frustration from all the know-it-alls who continue to make ASSUMPTIONS.______________________________________________ http://www.healthy.net/asp/templates/artic...Article&id=2149 Homeopathic Remedies vs. the Placebo Effect *Richard Moskowitz M.D. * The art of homeopathic medicine today is all but unknown to the general public; and I would venture to say that a large majority of those who have heard of it, including most of our patients, believe in their hearts that the tiny granules that taste so sweet are in fact nothing but sugar pills, and that whatever results we may achieve clinically could just as well be attributed to our own personal or shamanistic powers, or to the patient's belief in them, or some combination of the two. Nor does such a view necessarily imply any hostility to Homeopathy. Quite the contrary, it often reflects a deepening skepticism about all forms of treatment, especially the more aggressive modalities of conventional medicine, and even a humanistic preference for the "placebo effect", i.e., the ancient vis medicatrix naturae, the unassisted healing effort of the patient, as a model of the healing process in general.(1) Moreover, it is a view that Homeopathy itself has never really refuted, partly because we still do not know how our medicines act, or how our patients are cured, and partly, I suspect, because our history as a persecuted minority makes us almost not want to know, or indeed to do anything else to attract further attention to ourselves. Nor is it by any means a simple matter to demonstrate the effectiveness of the high attenuations even to someone who is prepared to examine the evidence with an open mind. Nevertheless, while it may be quite difficult to prove that our remedies actually work, there is a very substantial body of evidence that they do so; and, to refute the argument that they are placebos, it is not necessary to prove that they act curatively, which is of course a more complicated matter, but only that they act at all, that something happens as a result of their action, rather than simply on account of the interaction between the physician and the patient. Conversely, it is could be proved that our remedies were in fact nothing but placebos, let us by all means admit it with good grace, since, quite apart from having deluded ourselves all these years, knowingly giving placebos or just saying that we don't know would be incalculably simpler and less expensive than the elaborate rigamarole that we actually practise! As many of you know, *there have been a substantial number of experimental studies demonstrating that the homeopathic remedies in high dilution can stimulate or inhibit the growth of various bacteria, plants, molds, fruit flies, etc., as well as the enzymatic activity of some in vitro or cell-free systems. * But, inasmuch as these have already been described fairly extensively in the literature, I will concentrate on the clinical data, where my own experience lies. It seems to me that there are a considerable number of clinical situations in which we can show quite convincingly, albeit without any formal proof, that the homeopathic remedies act, or a least are capable of acting. In the remainder of this paper, I will try, first, to group these situations into categories, and, second, to give cases from my own records to illustrate them, insofar as possible. 1 . Cases where spontaneous recovery would have been highly improbable, or at least would have required a longer' period of time than was actually observed. CASE 1. Respiratory distress of the newborn. 8-pound baby girl, full-term, born at home in February, 1976, following a prolonged second stage. The baby was born covered with meconium, took a single gasp, and failed to breathe after that. Suctioning of the oropharynx yielded copious thick meconium; endotracheal intubation was unsuccessful (cords not visualized). Heart rate 60 per min., color pale, almost white; no movement. The baby responded somewhat to mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, but could not sustain normal respiration as soon as it was stopped. Gave ARSENICUM ALBUM 200, 1 dose, dry, on the tongue. Almost instantly, the heart began to beat strongly, at a rate of 140 per minute; the child began breathing normally, with good tonus and normal reflexes, and became pink almost immediately. The whole evolution took at most a few seconds. From that moment on, the child continued to behave perfectly normally in every way, as if nothing had happened. She was hospitalized for further observation, but was discharged after 24 hours without any further distress or evidence of aspiration, and without any further medication being required. I should say in retrospect that, inasmuch as the child was full-term and well-formcd in every respect, she would most probably have recovered eventually, even if the remedy had not been given; but I have no doubt that it would have required at least 24 to 48 hours in thc Newborn ICU, with oxygen, some form of assisted ventilation, and possibly other drugs as well. What was so unforgettable about this case was the extreme rapidity of its evolution, from a life-threatening emergency into a completely normal, stable pattern, in the space of a few seconds. What perhaps convinced me most was the look on my nurse's face, because she had had her ear glued to the stethoscope the whole time, and had not even seen me give the medication. Less than a second after I gave it, she looked up at me in blank amazement, handed me the stethoscope, and asked, "What happened?" These are the experiences that arc imprinted for life in every practitioner's mind. CASE 2. Breech presentation. 23- year old primigravida, EDC 8 January 1976. Routine prenatal visits: good health, vertex presentation. 15 December 1975. Routine checkup: complaining of increased pressure and movement in suprapubic region. FHT heard in RUQ at 138 per min Definitely breech. Gave PULSATILLA 6x ii t.i.d. 18 December. Mother noted violent movements on the night of the 16th again on the 17th. Position now definitely vertex; FHT heard in LLQ at 150 per min. No other complaints. 5 January 1976. Delivered 7 lb. 6 oz. baby girl after short labor, ROA; no problems. This was the first breech presentation I had ever turned with PULSATILLA. I had recently read a number of accounts in the old literature recommending its use prior to engagement, or at lest prior to labor. On the other hand, a fairly high percentage of breeches will revert spontaneously in the final weeks, in spite of our best efforts. It was purely circumstantial evidence that led me (and the patient) to believe that the remedy had acted in this case. I used a low potency because the patient otherwise had no symptoms, and I was looking for what could be described as a physiologic effect. CASE 3. Breech presentation. 24-year-old primigravida, EDC 8 February 1980. Feeling well; no complaints. 16 November 1979. Routine checkup: fundus 25cm., FHT heard in RUQ. Definitely breech. No treatment. 13 December. No complaints; baby still breech. Gave PULSATILLA 6x ii t.i.d. for 4 days. No change. 11 January 1980. Status quo: position unchanged. Discussed possibility of hospital birth. Gave PULSATILLA 30, I dose, dry t.i.d. for 4 days. No change. 17 January. Ultrasound confirmed breech presentation single fetus. 21 January. Still no change. Gave PULSATILLA 200, I dose, dry daily for 4 days. 25 January. Awoke on morning of the 25th after normal sleep, but baby "felt different." Definitely vertex; no other complaint. 4 February. Delivered 7-pound baby boy, at home, after average labor; position LOA. No other problems. Here again, the evidence was circumstantial, but quite convincing. I should mention that from November on the patient was also doing special exercises for converting the breech, and was receiving acupuncture treatments for the same purpose. But these measures were going on more or less continuously. It was actually the potency that appeared to make the difference in this case: both the 6 x and the 30th produced markedly increased fetal movements, but no change m position, whereas the 200th had no effect on fetal movement, but the patient awoke from a sound sleep with the abnormal position corrected. 2 . Cases where conventional medicine had been tried unsuccessfully or the pa tient had been recommended for surgery, yet were cured or at least significantly helped with homeopathic remedies. CASE 4. Epilepsy. 4-year-old boy from Hobbs, N.M., with long history of febrile convulsions, and 7-month history of minor seizures. Parents separated when mother was 5 months pregnant, divorced shortly after the birth; mother promptly remarried. Birth was normal and uneventful. Febrile convulsions at 4 months, followed by rash (possibly roseola), and several time thereafter, in the course of acute tonsillitis, otitis media, etc. The seizures were all of the grand mal type, and treated successfully with phenobarbital. Otherwise, the child appeared to be developing normally and in good health, until March 1976, when in the course of a simple URI, with low fever, he developed persistent grand mal seizures and was hospitalized. The EEG was inconclusive. His seizures were controlled with Dilantin and phenobarbital; he was discharged on maintenance doses of both drugs. After a few weeks, he began having many brief episodes of the petit mal type, in which the body stiffened, the head was thrown back, ,the back arched, and the mind would go blank for a few seconds; about half of the time, he would fall to the ground. Zarontin was then added to the regimen, in place of the Dilantin. At the time of his first visit, he was having perhaps 15 to 20 of these episodes daily; the mother had discontinued all medications for 2 weeks at my request. 5 October 1976. First visit: child extremely hyperactive, continually interrupting; speech slurred. Physical exam normal, but twice interrupted by hyperactive episodes. Gave CALCAREA PHOSPHORICA 200, 1 dose, dry plus CALC. PHOS. 6x ii q.i.d. as needed. 25 November. Mother telephoned. Child much improved for about 2 weeks, then old symptoms returning in force for the past 3 days. Gave HYOSCYAMUS 200, 1 dose. 20 December. Mother telephoned. General condition much improved; speech, appetite, hyperactivity much less troublesome. Still fairly frequent petit mal episodes, approx. 6 per day, plus occasional generalized clonic seizures, without loss of consciousness. Gave OPIUM 200, 1 dose. 18 January 1977. Mother telephoned. Several more clonic episodes, similar to above, with continued improvement in general condition; speech "back to normal." On 10 January, had a severe grand mal seizure, followed by long deep sleep. No seizures at all since then. No treatment. 2 April. By letter: good appetite, doing well in public school; no seizures of any kind. 26 August. By letter: moving to Florida, sent for medical records. Perfectly healthy in every respect; no seizures of any kind. This case was noteworthy because of the suppressive effect of the anticonvulsant drugs, which abolished thegrandmalactivity but produced petit mal in its place. The treatrnent therefore had to proceed "backward" to the grand mal again, before complete cure could occur. CASE 5. Renal calculi; obstructive uropathy. 31-year-old surveyor, with long history of kidney stones. 24 January 1976. First visit. History of stone began in 1972, passed spontaneously; intermittent flank pain since then. Complaining of severe, intermittent left CVA pain for 5 days, radiating to and from the bladder, associated with obstructed urination, and large amounts of sediment in the urine, resembling shreds of tissue. IVP showed 2 large calculi completely obstructing the left uretero-pelvic junction, with considerable hydronephrotic enlargement of the left renal pelvis and calyces. His family physician had recommended immediate surgery. Gave BERBERIS VULGARIS 200, 1 dose and 6x ii q.i.d. 26 January. Pain considerably lessened, almost gone: now merely a dull ache. Gave OCIMUM CANUM 200, I dose, followed by CALCAREA RENALIS 6x ii q.i.d. 16 February. Pain mild, now chiefly in the bladder area, with occasional stinging and dysuria at the urethral meatus. No treatment. 26 February. Much better. Still has occasional twinges of pain, but feels that the obstruction has been removed. No treatment. 25 March. Repeat IVP showed a single stone in the lower pole of the left kidney, with no further evidence of obstruction; second stone in the distal portion of the left ureter, near the uretero-vesical junction. No treatment. 15 November. Recently back on coffee; another episode of severe pain, this time in the LLQ, near the bladder. Gave NUX VOMICA 200,1 dose, and 6 x ii q.i.d. 17 November. Much improved; pain almost gone. 17 January 1977. Passed large stone, approx. 6 x 3 x 5 mm., conglomerate type. Feeling well in every respect. Refused IVP or further treatment. The experienced homeopath will doubtless excuse the overly hasty, symptomatic type of prescribing that may well have prolonged and could have spoiled this case. I cite it merely as an example of how surgery can often be avoided, even in somewhat threatening situations. CASE 6. Pelvic trauma. 27-year-old weaver, with documented yeast infection intermittently for the past 2 years, treated repeatedly with Mycostatin, with temporary relief. 23 June 1977. First visit. Constant burning in and around vagina, with pain on intercourse; labia flaming red, with sticky white substance clinging to the folds. No discharge. Gave SULPHUR 200, 1 dose. 1 July. Pain lessened, irritation gone. Still very dry on intercourse: "lovemaking has become an ordeal" (whereupon she wept bitterly). She stated that her symptoms had begun shortly after a car accident 2 years ago, in which she had been thrown from the car, and had landed on her buttocks. There was no fracture, but a large bruise appeared and took quite a long time to heal, during which time her present symptoms developed. Gave ARNICA 200, 1 dose, and 6x ii q.i.d. 22 December. Dryness totally gone, no other complaints; feeling well in every respect. This case is memorable to me, first, because it shows very clearly the flaw of conventional prescribing, which is aimed purely at the microbial pore, the tissue changes, etc., without any thought being given to the unique history of this particular patient. Second, it illustrates how the homeopathic remedy can search back in time, through the life history of the patient, to locate and overcome chronic symptoms traceable, in this case, to mechanical trauma in the distant past. 3. Cases where the patient was extremely skeptical or hostile, or otherwise presumably insensitive to the placebo effect (e.g., newborn babies, animals, comatose patients, etc.), yet were cured or significantly benefited with homeopathic remedies. CASE 7. Recurrent mastitis. 30-year-old gravida i pare i, who gave birth at home in February 1975, with the assistance of a doctor friend, who eventually performed a manual removal of retained placental fragments, after excessive traction on the cord produced sever postpartum bleeding and a placenta that was torn in several places. About 5 weeks postpartum, she developed severe mastitis, with high fever, which was treated successfully with Ampicillin, but recurred as soon as the drug was stopped. This time she was given Keflex, with the same result; even after a second course of Keflex, she developed yet a fourth episode within a few days. At this point she decided, somewhat reluctantly, to try Homeopathy. 6 May 1975. Temperature 102, pulse 120 per minute. The patient lay motionless in bed, as the slightest change of position brought on a violent headache and nausea. Even moving her eyes provoked a severe retro-orbital pain that was quite characteristic of all four episodes. Gave BRYONIA 200, I dose, plus 6 x ii q.i.d., but the patient would not hear of my leaving the house, so little faith had she either in me or my methods. I went to sleep there, it being already quite late in the evening; and, when I awoke the next morning, her temperature was normal, the breast was completely free of swelling or tenderness, and the headache and other pains greatly relieved. She was completely well within 12 hours, and her symptoms never reappeared. CASE 8. Urethritis. 33-year-old mother of two children, complaining of vaginal discharge, itching, and constant desire to urinate. 26 July 1979. Patient appeared extremely agitated, suspicious, and hostile, especially when I told her that I was a homeopath and did not give sulfa drugs, antibiotics, etc., whereupon she became openly scornful, mainly because her symptoms were so violent, and she was in sue! hurry to be rid of them. (She had had them only for about six hours.) turned out that her illness had followed a violent, angry scene with herhusband, interspersed with several bouts of passionate lovemaking (they had until then been separated for 2 weeks), and culminating in his a nouncement that he had been exposed to gonorrhea in the course of his travels. There was considerable dysuria at the end of the stream. Cultures proved negative for VD. Gave STAPHISAGRIA 200, 1 dose, and 6 x q.i.d. 27 July. Symptoms virtually gone. 28 July. No symptoms of any kind. Needless to say, I had to call this pa- tient myself. My only reason for reporting these two cases is to show you that the patient need not believe in you or the remedies for them to be effective. The second patient was as surly, ill-mannered, and uncooperative a patient as I have ever had The only reason she called me was that I had played volleyball with her hus- band. Neither of them had the vaguest idea about Homeopathy, or even knew that I practiced it; but she was sufficiently desperate to at least give it a try when I told her that I did not write prescriptions. 4. Cases where the patient, conversely, was cooperative, highly motivated, full of faith in me, and in Homeopathy, and presented a classic symptom picture, clearly indicating a well-known remedy (i.e., where the placebo d feet should have been maximal), yet the remedy had no effect whatsoever This group is exactly the converse of the last, and cases of this type are, alas far too common to be particularly memorable, or toe require much elaboration I mention them simply to show that it is also possible for the remedies not to work sometimes, which could not happen unless they actually did work at other times. If the placebo effect had been the important factor, then surely these arc the patients who should have benefited from it, just as those of the last group are the ones who should not have; but in fact, just the opposite was the case. 5. Cases where the patient developed sulking new symptoms peculiar to or characteristic of the homeopathic remedy. CASE 9. Premenstrual tension. 43-year-old lady, with long-standing history of premenstrual symptoms. 7 November 1979. First visit. Feels well 3 weeks out of 4. About 7 days prior to the onset of the period, she has painful, lumpy breasts, ravenous appetite, nervous irritability. Very haughty. Loves hot drinks; intolerant of dry, spring winds, and of dry weather generally. Most symptoms worse on waking. Gave LYCOPODIUM 200, 1 dose. 10 January 1980. Next period after meds. came on only 2 days after the onset of her symptoms, which were quite mild; and all of them were right-sided, which was unusual. Only the right breast was tender; in addition, there was aching and stiffness of the neck on the right, which was quite new, and an earache on the right side, which she had not had since she was a child. In the midst of these complaints, she felt quite well, and has remained so since. This type of case is quite common and, to my mind, represents perhaps the most direct and convincing evidence we can have that it is the remedy, rather than simply the suggestibility or the desire of the patient to be healed, that is doing the job. The provings of LYCOPODIUM, the club-moss, show it to be a markedly right-sided medicine. When all is said and done, it is this correspondence between the experimentally proved symptoms of the remedy and the actual symptoms of the patient that distinguishes Homeopathy from all other methods of treatment. So, when you see new symptoms appearing in the course of a treatment, and these symptoms are characteristic or proved symptoms of the remedy you have given, you can be virtually certain that the remedy is acting, whether curatively or otherwise. I have often heard it said that it is the appearance of a classic aggravation, followed by amelioration, or the curative response in accordance with Hering's Laws of Cure, that constitute the surest proof that the remedy is acting. But I have seen typical aggravations and curative responses according to Hering's laws following conventional drugs, surgery, acupuncture, faith healing, placebos, and even in the course of spontaneous cures without any treatment whatsoever. These are simply curative reactions, and cure is always miraculous in the sense that it can always occur or fail to occur, whatever modality we use. 6. Cases where the remedy actually did harm, or at least appeared to catalyze a destructive process in the patient. CASE 10. Rectal fissure. 27-year-old photographer, with 4-month history of rectal pain and bleeding, diagnosed as a rectal fissure, and recommended for surgery. Past history of migraine (last episode 2 years ago); amoebic dysentery; recurrent prostatitis; and chronic irritation of the eyes, with redness, soreness, and crusting, for which he had used mercuric oxide ointment 3 times a week for the past 5years. 9 October 1975. First visit. Rectal pain most severe after prolonged sitting. Gave NITRIC ACID 200, 1 dose. 21 October. Pain, bleeding almost completely gone within a few days after the medicine; felt revitalized and full of well-being. After 1 week, the original symptoms had reappeared, and had gradually regained their former intensity Also, in the past 24 hours, the soreness of the eyes had increased, and then were occasional brown "floaters" in the field of the left eye. Gave NITRIC ACID 200, 1 dose. 22 October. Left eye totally browned out: can see only fuzzy blotches. Local ophthalmologist made tentative diagnosis of retrobulbar neuritis; patient scheduled for full neurological workup at UNM Medical Center, Albuquerque. 2 November. Returned from hospital with diagnosis of multiple sclerosis. Very large blind spot in left eye, surrounded by grey penumbra; can see some light peripherally. Also quite a lot of fuzziness now in the right eye. 20 November. Right eye almost back to normal. Left eye almost totally blind, except for a narrow, crescent-shaped arc at the periphery. 31 December. Condition unchanged. I present this case lest you assume, as I think most of us do, that the homeopathic remedies are innocuous, which is, after all, essentially a euphemism for 'ineffective'. To be sure, such cases are extremely rare; and the safety record of Homeopathy, compared to the conventional method, is quite extraordinary. I would also agree that the remedy in this case undoubtedly only elicited a tendency that would have come to light eventually even without it. Nevertheless, I must continue to live with the fact, as must the patient and his family, that he would have been much better off had he never consulted me in the first place. So, if you will but take the trouble to practise Homeopathy, you will quickly see that the remedies do actually work, although we do not yet really understand how they work, which of course keeps it interesting. At the same time, we can cheerfully agree with those who say that we are using the placebo effect, if by the placebo effect we mean the simplest model of the healing process itself, the patient's own healing effort. This is fundamentally what healing is all about. This often succeeds whatever modality is used, and whether the physician attempts to cooperate with it or not. In the words of Paracelsus "The art of healing comes from Nature, not from the physician; for every illness is inherent in our nature, and every illness has its own remedy within itself. We could not be born alive and healthy were there not a physician already hidden in us." * Paracelsus, Selected Writings, translated by N. Guterman.Bollingen, pp. 50, 76. passim. Notes 1) Cf. Cousins, N., The Anatomy of an Illness as Perceived by, the Patient, Norton. Chapter 2, 'The Notorious Placebo . pp. 49-70.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote:The Lancet published the most significant and comprehensive review of homeopathic research ever published in its September 20, 1997, issue. This article was a meta-analysis of 89 blinded, randomized, placebo-controlled clinical trials. The authors conclude that the clinical effects of homeopathic medicines are not simply the results of placebo. The researchers uncovered 186 studies, 119 of which were double-blind and/or randomized placebo-control trials, and 89 of which met pre-defined criteria for inclusion into a pooled meta-analysis. The reseachers found that by pooling the 89 trials together that homeopathic medicines had a 2.45 times greater effect than placebo. The Lancet concurrently published two critiques of the homeopathic research. One critique by Jan Vandenbroucke, MD, a Dutch professor, acknowledged, "The meta-analysis is completely state of the art." And yet, despite its results, he asserts that homeopathic medicines "cannot possibly produce any effect." Because homeopathic medicines are often so small in dose that physicians and scientists commonly assert that they cannot work, an increasing number of controlled trials and an ever increasing public interest in homeopathy is proving them wrong. The authors of the research include Klaus Linde, MD, German professor and author of the famed review of research on the herb, St. Johns wort, for depression, and Wayne Jonas, MD, head of the NIH Office of Alternative Medicine. Dana Ullman, M.P.H., a leading spokesperson for homeopathy and author of numerous books, including The Consumer's Guide to Homeopathy, stated, "This research places homeopathy squarely in the arena of legitimate medical science. Homeopathy IS effec tive, but we now need to know simply how effective it is." Another critic of this study was British professor M. Lang man who questioned whether it was appropriate to analyze a group of experiments which used disparate remedies for different condi tions. Ullman responded to this saying, "There are two simple reasons why grouping studies together makes sense. First, the question that this analysis sought to answer is: are the effects from homeopathic medicines primarily placebo? And second, this analysis sought to evaluate: does homeopathy as a medical system seem to work? I personally think that critics are most upset about the fact that this study shows that every means of evaluat ing the present data suggests that homeopathic medicines are effective. Skeptics now would rather not be persuaded by the evidence but by their own biases against homeopathy." Ullman readily admits, "Even though we may not know precise ly how homeopathic medicines work, this has never stopped physi cians from using medicines or treatments that have been shown to be effective." A new survey of primary care physicians who are members of the AMA revealed that an astonishing 49% of them expressed interest in training in homeopathy (British Homeopathic Journal, July, 1997). This survey was conducted by researchers at the University of Maryland. These same researchers also surveyed Maryland family practice doctors and discovered that 69% expressed inter est in homeopathic training (Journal of the American Board of Family Practice, 1995, 8, 361-6). Both of these studies show an impressively high degree of interest in homeopathy. A major reference book on homeopathic research is Homeopathy: A Frontier in Medical Science (North Atlantic, 1995) au thored by a professor of pathology P. Bellavite, MD, and A. Signorini, MD.


In a nutshell one of the doctors ADMITS that the study IS flawless ------- BUT -------- then goes on to state that despite the flawless nature of the study ---- IT STILL STINKS.the reason that he thinks that homeopathy is a scam is because he IS CONVINCED that super-small dilutions are worthless.In other words, he IGNORES the perfectly designed study and desperately CLINGS to his erroneous OPINION that homeopathy is worthless.Once again ---- even though he admits that everything was just peachy with respect to the study ----- NONE OF IT MATTERS ---- because ----- he is still convinced --in his own mind -- that it is worthless.there you have it folks. this perfectly illustrates how a scientist can actually have something jump right off the page ---- smack him in the face --- and yet he STILL denies it. i know that some form of mental illness is involved here.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

flux, i am rolling on the floor laughing my....every time i read your article, i shake my head in disbelief.Are you aware that this author has just undermined the entire nature of what a double-blind palcebo controlled experiment is all about????????????????He literally just shot himself in the foot ---- and he does not even realize it.He further goes on to state that experiments on homeopathy should NEVER EVER even take place (if the scientist is of a particular persuasion --bayesian).the reason they should NEVER EVER take place is because homeopathy is too unexplainable in terms of what our scientists are presently capable of understanding.Therefore when a PERFECTLY designed meta-analysis shows that homeopathy works --- then -- obviously something --somewhere is WRONG --- because klaus Linde KNOWS that it is wrong from the very beginning. therefore the experiments should NOT be done in the first place because the researcher has already MADE UP HIS MIND!!!!!Oh MY GOD!!!! simply UNBELIEVABLE!!! well folks, if klaus linde is on to something then we must do away with all double blind placebo controlled experiments because they might reveal something that is totally unexpected!!!


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Klaus Linde is over there GRASPING AND STRETCHING, AND GRASPING AND STRETCHING, AND GRASPING AND STRETCHING for reasons to invalidate this study.he says to himself, "klaus -- old boy -- there simply must be a reason why these results are SO POSITIVE. I must find the reason. I simply MUST find the reason. --- because i JUST know --- i mean I really, really, really, really JUST know dat da homotopoli is BAD willy, willy BAD --- BAD, BAD stuff -- no good. So da heck with good science.... fooey on good science. dis good science does not back up my beliefs."


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Are you aware that this author has just undermined the entire nature of what a double-blind palcebo controlled experiment is all about


For a rare change, you are exactly right.







If professional scientists can do what appear at least superficially as competent studies and come up with *obviously* impossible results, there is something *clearly* wrong with the way these studies were conducted/analyzed. The question and the real issue here is how many studies involving real drugs share these flaws.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

ahhh flux, i think you completely missed the point. the meta-analysis was done correctly. all the results were interpreted CORRECTLY. there were close to 100 individual studies on homeopathy that ALL passed very stringent tests.Every thing was in ORDER.The reason why homeopathy was showed to work is because it really does work!!!However, there are people out there such as yourself who refuse to allow your brain to see that something may exist outside your little paradigm.Fortunately we have some OUTSTANDING scientists who are starting to unravel the mysteries of homeopathy. here is something from our Cal Tech people... http://www.hmedicine.com/news/guide/ncsu.php *Researchers at CalTech have discovered magnetic particles throughout the human brain. The Cal Tech team speculates that homeopathic dilutions create a higher level of the electromagnetic field, thus triggering the defense mechanisms of the body * It seems that the boys at Cal Tech have been hard at work. Apparently they discovered that magnetic particles called MAGNETITE is found throughout the brain. ************************************************* http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf121/sf121p07.htm HOW HOMEOPATHY MIGHT WORKAlthough some people swear to the efficacy of homeopathy's "remedies," skeptics have been fond of pointing out that these fluids are so dilute that no molecules of the active ingredients are likely to remain. Believers respond that the fluid remedies somehow retain the "essence" of the active ingredient. In effect, they maintain that water has a "memory." No wonder mainstream scientists scoff at homeopathy. *But wait, perhaps water can have a memory! * A Cal Tech chemist has put extremely dilute solutions under his electron microscope and found that some contain strange "ice" crystals, even though room temperature and pressure prevail. Called "IE crystals," they are produced through the action of ions. They are stable even at higher temperatures. *Subsequently, an immunologist at the University of California at Los Angeles discovered that the IE crystals can stimulate parts of the immune system. Water containing these strange forms of ice show a hundred times more bioactivity than plain water. * *Subsequently, an immunologist at the University of California at Los Angeles discovered that the IE crystals can stimulate parts of the immune system. Water containing these strange forms of ice show a hundred times more bioactivity than plain water. **Subsequently, an immunologist at the University of California at Los Angeles discovered that the IE crystals can stimulate parts of the immune system. Water containing these strange forms of ice show a hundred times more bioactivity than plain water. **Subsequently, an immunologist at the University of California at Los Angeles discovered that the IE crystals can stimulate parts of the immune system. Water containing these strange forms of ice show a hundred times more bioactivity than plain water. **Subsequently, an immunologist at the University of California at Los Angeles discovered that the IE crystals can stimulate parts of the immune system. Water containing these strange forms of ice show a hundred times more bioactivity than plain water. *(Anonymous; "Homeopathy and IE Crystals," Spectrum, p. 18, November/ December 1998. Cr. E. Fegert) Comment. Of course, we want to see independent confirmations of the Cal Tech and UCLA work , but we hope they will be objective rather than the usual knee-jerk reactions to homeopathy. See SF#59 and SF#69 for past confrontations over homeopathy. ************************************************* http://www.healingwithhomeopathy.net/whatis.htm *homeopathy helps dissipate blockages in an individual's subtle energy that may be preventing the individual's body wisdom from healing the chronic or acute illness. When the blockages are released, the individual's body wisdom is freed up to do what it needs to do - restructure, reorganize, release, reconstruct, realign, etc. It's this innate body intelligence that really brings about the healing that results from energetic healing modalities. * I often compare this process to pushing a boulder over a cliff. It only takes one big shove in just the right place and then gravity takes over. Likewise, an individual may need only one homeopathic remedy to stimulate a deep and long lasting healing response.For acute illnesses (e.g. cold, flu or sports injury), usually only one blockage is involved and so usually only one remedy is required. For most people with chronic illness, however, there are usually multiple blockages - in which case they often need a series of remedies over a period of time. Each remedy helps release a pattern of blockage, and assists the body wisdom in healing the chronic illness layer by layer.************************************************ http://www.healingwithhomeopathy.net/introduc.htm According to Trevor Cook, *Ph.D., * DI Hom., President of the United Kingdom Homeopathic Medical Association, *the explanation of the therapeutic action of the highly dilute homeopathic remedies appears to lie in the domain of quantum physics and the emerging field of energy medicine.* (flux, it is rooted in QUANTUM PHYSICS this is PROBABLY the reason you don't understand it. this is a difficult subject to understand!) A study using nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) imaging demonstrated distinctive readings of subatomic activity in twenty-three different homeopathic remedies. This potency was not demonstrated in placebos (substances having no pharmacological effect). Some researchers believe that the specific electromagnetic frequency of the original substance is imprinted in the homeopathic remedy through the process of successive dilution and succession, says Dr. Cook. The distinguished Italian physicist Emilio del Giudici has set forth a theory that helps explain homeopathy's mode of therapeutic action. Del Giudici proposes that water molecules form structures capable of storing minute electromagnetic signals. This proposition is given added weight by the findings of Dr. Wolfgang Ludwig, a German biophysicist, who has demonstrated in preliminary research that homeopathic substances give off measurable electromagnetic signals. These signals show that specific frequencies are dominant in each homeopathic substance.If del Giudici's model is accurate, a homeopathic remedy may convey an electromagnetic "message" to the body that matches the specific electromagnetic frequency or pattern of an illness in order to stimulate the body's natural healing response. What Dr. Hahnemann may have been doing in his empirical research was unwittingly "matching the frequencies of the plant extract with the frequency of the [patient's] illness."*************************************************Flux,don't worry about it so much. it takes a while before the brain will accept these kinds of things. homeopathy is difficult to understand because it involves PHYSICS and processes that are VERY difficult to comprehend.Next time you are troubled by it i want you to just stop, sit back and do some deep rhythmic breathing.... and then calmly tell yourself that everything is going to be OKAY. accepting the TRUTH about homeopathy is NOT going to destroy your "safe" little world. It may even enhance it. There is really NOTHING to be afraid of --- just relax.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: posted 11-19-2003 06:31 AM ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ ahhh flux, i think you completely missed the point.


That the studies are all flawed is *without* question. Every positive result is flawed *by definition*You forever lost in a


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: Careful tests with homing pigeons and other birds displaying the ability to judge direction show that the birds are affected by changing magnetic fields. Small coils placed near the birds' heads to create unnatural magnetic fields there do disturb the ability of pigeons to find home. Magnetic storms do the same. If birds are released at places where the earth's magnetic field is anomalously strong, their homing ability is entirely disrupted.A possible reason why birds can sense the earth's magnetic field and perhaps use it for navigation is given by Charles Walcott and co-authors in Science magazine. Dissecting a number of pigeons, these scientists found the equivalent of a compass needle in each pigeon's head.Next to, or essentially in, each pigeon skull, they located a tiny piece of tissue 1 mm by 2 mm (about 1/16 in by 1/8 in) that was somewhat magnetic. Searches inside this tissue with an electron microscope revealed the presence of more than ten million tiny crystals each four times as long as wide. Other tests demonstrated that these crystals were magnetite, the iron-oxygen compound of which compass needles are made.As yet, it is not proven that the millions of minuscule magnetite "compass needles" in each homing pigeon's head are used for navigation, but it seems likely that they are. These multiple compass needles are so tiny that they could readily oscillate in a rapidly-changing magnetic field such as might accompany electrical storms, earthquakes and also displays of northern lights.So here also is a possible explanation of why birds sometimes seem to sense impending geophysical events.


Since we humans have this same magnetite in our brains, I suspect that the theories that homeopathy could be imparting a certain electromagnetic frequency within the brain might be right on the mark.There are so many things that we have yet to discover about the amazing brain. It makes me wonder if this could be a vital component to us getting healthy. In other words, can homeopathy get down to the root cause of our ails. I think that in a lot of cases it can.


> quote: Homeopathy Proves Effective In Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled Study Contrary to the overwhelming belief of the mainstream medical establishment, results from a recent series of trials suggest that homeopathy is more effective than an inactive pill (placebo) in treating certain ills. Researchers studied 51 patients with perennial hay fever. Twenty-four of the study subjects received daily homeopathy and 27 received a daily placebo treatment during the 4-week study period.  The study was performed to the highest standards of scientific research, being double-blinded, randomized, and placebo-controlled. All of the subjects kept a diary in which they recorded twice daily their nasal air flow measurements and symptoms such as sneezing, runny nose, and eye and chest symptoms. Patients who received homeopathy had a 28% improvement in their nasal air flow whereas those in the placebo group had only a 3% improvement. In comments to Reuters Health, study author Dr. David Reilly of the Glasgow Homoeopathic Hospital states "There are two ways of interpreting the fact that four trials in a row have produced positive results," Either homeopathy works, in which case "we need to explore the clinical potential and the scientific challenges, (or) homeopathy does not work (and) the clinical trial is proving an unreliable tool capable of worrying false positive results."In an accompanying editorial, *Tim Lancaster of the Oxford Institute of Health Sciences and Andrew Vickers of Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in New York City, acknowledge that the methods employed by Dr. Reilly and his colleagues "were rigorous and it is unlikely that their results arose from methodological bias." They also admit that if this study can be confirmed by a larger trial it could really change the thinking of mainstream medicine towards homeopathy.* British Medical Journal August 19, 2000;321:471-476.COMMENT: I don't use much homeopathy (writes Mercola M.D.), but that is largely related to the fact that I have not had enough time to study it carefully enough to use it properly. I do find though that many homeopaths tend to continue in their traditional paradigm and use their homeopathics as a substitute for drugs. Clearly they are better and far safer than drugs, but unless they address the underlying causes they will not resolve the health complaint at its deepest level. Homeopathics are not a substitute for optimizing the diet, and resolving emotional and spiritual conflicts. It is good to see that this form of energy medicine is receiving good reviews in a very respectable journal.


Andrew Vickers thinks that large studies would possibly change mainstream medicines approach and incorporate homeopathy as a healing tool. ( KEL says --- dream on Mr. Vickers. In the united states -- a country that is dominated by the bottom line $$$$-- this won't happen. Plus, some people have their minds so incredibly closed that it will never happen. Some people might still have trouble believing that the earth moves around the sun NOT vice versa.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:There are so many things that we have yet to discover about the amazing brain


One of them is how one's can be so thick?


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

flux,the tide is turning. there is now an overwhelming amount of information revealing the secrets of homeopathy.the dozens and dozens of clinical studies speaks for itself. --- and the California Institute of Technology all the way to physics laboratories overseas are confirming that water can retain memory.There are thousands and thousands of testimonials and homeopathy is the 2nd most popular treatment method next to chinese medicine.It takes a while for people to finally "get it" just like it took a very long time for people to "get" that the earth revolved around the sun not the other way.You have never researched it and you admitted that you are just using your "common sense". any philosopher can tell you that the senses are deceptive. a slightly open mind, a thorough trial, and extensive research is all it takes to see the light.It is PHYSICS --- it is a method of treating people and even animals with some type of electromagnetic energy frequency. The above example shows that the mammalian brain is capable of being strongly influenced by electromagnetic energy (bird brains!!!) --- the human mind is also susceptible to the same influences --- through the energy from homeopathy.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

More fun stuff from homeopathy land!!! Lookie here!!! We have an IVY LEAGUE M.D. (a surgeon in san diego)We also have a Stanford U. ( M.D. ) ---- http://www.homeopathicdoctor.com/page9.html http://www.homeopathicdoctor.com/page4.html http://www.homeopathicdoctor.com/ http://www.billgrayhomeopathy.com/ Below we have a doctor who got just fed up with allopathic medicine, and now he is able to really help people the correct way -naturally. http://www.simillibus.com/about.html I am a practicing homœopathic physician in Blue Hill, Maine, a small town on a peninsula on the northeastern portion of the Maine coast. I was trained in conventional (allopathic) medicine at the University of Vermont College of Medicine (1979-1983), and subsequently did a 3-year residency in family medicine at St. Mary's Hospital in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I returned to Maine in 1986 to a family practice, with additional interests in occupational medicine, chronic pain management, biofeedback and mind/body medicine. In my early practice experience, I became quite aware that my conventional medical training did not equip me well for many of the common difficulties people brought in with them. Kids with recurrent or chronic ear infections, adults with fatigue, folks with chronic headaches, irritable bowel syndrome, kids with asthma, ADD/ADHD ... the list could go on for some time. These folks often just "fall through the cracks" of conventional medical care, with our offerings either ineffective or fraught with intolerable side effects. I also became increasingly dissatisfied with the inability of the conventional medical model to really address the roots of suffering that bring people in to seek healing. Looking now at even my well-meaning and compassionate allopathic colleagues, collared by managed care constraints on their time and treatment options, I have no regret at having found a different approach to healthcare. In the fall of 1990 I broke out with a case of shingles. I spent the day staring at a bottle of acyclovir, a drug I'd prescribed many times for others with this ailment, but I couldn't bring myself to take it. I guess you could say I'd lost faith with the system of medicine I'd been trained to practice. I called up a friend, a conventional doctor who had recently begun practicing homœopathy, and told him that I didn't believe in his quackery, but I was desparate, and if he felt he could help, I'd give it a go. I guess he saw his opportunity to make a convert of me, and made space for me that day. We talked for an hour about all aspects of my life - quite a switch from the conventional 5-minute office visit where all but one piece of you tends to get ignored - and he gave me a tiny pellet of a homœopathic remedy he'd chosen on the basis of that interview. I woke the next morning to healing blisters and no pain, and sent away a large order to a bookstore for a homœopathic medicine reference library. I began treating my own kids homœopathically, using the homecare manuals available, for their recurring snotty noses and ear infections, and was amazed to see them respond so much better than the kids I treated in the office with antibiotics. It became increasingly difficult for me to treat folks in the office differently from how I'd treat my own family - and when I'd present it to a patient in those terms, they'd invariably ask me to "treat me like you'd treat your family, doc." Made sense to me. I enrolled in the International Foundation for Homœopathy's year-long professional course, where I met 30 other health practitioners who basically shared this same story. My teachers there - Ted Chapman, Janet Levatin, Richard Moskowitz, George Guess, Howard Fine, Amy Rothenberg, Pearlyn Goodman-Herrick - provided a good background for ongoing study, each bringing their own perspective to a classical approach. I've since been influenced in study & workshops with Rajan Sankaran, Nandita Shah, and Misha Norland's School of Homœopathy in Devon England. More than anything, I've been inspired by the original writings of Samuel Hahnemann and the Baron von Boenninghausen, and I find my approach to homœopathic practice increasingly shaped by these classical writings. I've now been practicing exclusively as a homœopath for over 9 years, and have a patient population of close to 2600 new-visit charts. Each patient has been a teacher for me, in my successes and failures in finding the remedies that will help to bring them into their full health. I have begun teaching at the School of Homœopathy, New York, write a regular column for the NCH journal Homeopathy Today, and am frequently asked to lecture at homœopathic conferences. I lay no claim to being a master in this field, and I'll leave that honor to contemporaries such as Misha Norland, Jeremy Sherr, Lou Klein, George Vithoulkas, Rajan Sankaran, Roger Morrison and the like. I'm an "in the trenches" homœopathic practitioner with an active local practice, and I wrestle daily with continual learning of the materia medica and strategies in casetaking, case analysis, and case management. I find great joy in teaching and sharing what I have learned. I have been an active participant on the Lyghtforce homœopathy Mailing List on the internet since 10/96, and have received many requests to write on various topics, to assist on studying cases, and to teach and supervise students and practitioners of homœopathy. This website originally evolved out of my attempt to respond to that invitation. In addition to practicing, studying, and teaching homœopathy, I live with my partner Mary and two sons, Benjamin (10) and Caleb (9) in Sedgwick, Maine, in the shadow of Awanadjo (small misty mountain) and near the shore of Eggemoggin Reach, on the Blue Hill peninsula in downeast Maine. We garden, Mary makes dolls, and we're generally of the "homeshool / homebirth / homebaked bread / homœopathy" culture ;-). I am generally at my happiest in the stern of our homemade 19-1/2' wooden canoe, Mary in the bow, the boys amidships with packs for a week, heading out into the interconnected lakes and rivers of northern & eastern Maine. This is a picture of Caleb & me on one of our very favorite lakes.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:the tide is turning. there is now an overwhelming amount of information revealing the secrets of homeopathy.


The only thing it's revealing is that we are stuck with


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Flux, This is how they treat people overseas. Merck, Phizer and all the rest are just playing God with us and our bodies - I really believe this (how many people can say that drugs have cured them of their CHRONIC conditions??? - not very many at all.) http://homeopathy-international.com/board/...ct=ST&f=18&t=47 Dr J.K. RaghavanshaviI have treated and cured completely a case of thalacemia minor.Her PCB has no thalacemic cells after recent invistigations. the case is as follows.- - - A lady,named Madhu Bhaverlal Jain.Aged 25 years, Resident of Lalbaug, Parel. Mumbai was brought to me on 13-12-2001 with following history. Heavy menstual bleeding for ten to fifteen days at each menses.She was married three years before and was pregnent soon after marriage but she aborted at thiird month with heavy uterine bleeding which remained for about a month.As she recovered she became pregnent after four months again. this time she took allopathic treatment till full term but that was the still birth of a baby boy with deadly bleeding, she was transfused with ten bottles of blood to recover hence the gyneacologist investigated and found that Mrs Madhu is a patient of minor thalacemia with prolonged clotting time and her hemoglobin was just 8 grams after blood transfision. A friend of Mrs madhu is mr.Dupelia who's son, master Malik was treated and cured completely for thalacemia by me three years before, adviced Mrs Madhu for my treatment So Mr and Mrs Madhu Jain came to me on 13-12-2001 for the treatment, before this she took homoeopathic treatment for about two years from different homoeopaths at Mumbai but without much improvement.She was a obase lady with 72 kg. B.P.-120/80 and 8 mg of Hg. cold blooded. Her menses from the beginning were prolonged and heavy. As she came from homoeopthic hands I became little causious to treat her.so I decided to treat her constitutionally. From the above history of her, I took only four rubrics to analise her case on my computer By Radar 7.1 (1) Gen-Haemorrhage-blood-non coagulable.(2) Gen-Anemia-Menorrhagia from(3) Obesity-young people in(4) Female Genitalia-Delivery after complains. Full synthesis for combined analysis showed Cal carb with 2463 marks as the hightest indicated similimum and full synthesis for sum of symptoms and degrees also showed Cal carb wirh 37 as hightest indicated similimum I desided to give her the similimum in low potency because it was a genetic trouble convyed to her from number of past generations I started Cal carb 6C b.d. contineuosly, after one month she visited me and told that she menstuated for five days only with normal bleeding I adviced her to take same medicine contineuosly for three months and see me again, in the mean time she missed her period for 15 days and called me on phone for advice, I adviced her for pregnancy test and it was positive. She became glad and consulted her Gyneacologist to conferm about the ptegnancy but the Gyneacologist said that she is suffering from such a disease which has no curative treatment in the world till today, she may die during delivery due to thalacemia. She became very nervous and came to me crying, I adviced her not to worry and asked the phone number of her Gyneacologist,I contacted her on phone about madhu, she said to me that homoeopathy will also of no use for this lady and she will defintely die due to post partum heamorrhage I said o.k. will you admit her for delivry? she said let her come to fill term and if she is normal with normal clotting time and Hb, then only I will admit her for delivery I said well, homoeopathy will fulfil your conditions for her delivery.She laughed at me with a foolish sound about me on my phone, I thanked her and put the phone down,after contineuos cal carb 6C till full term I adviced Maghu for clotting time and Hb. I wondered by the report,her Hb came to 12 mg and clotting time was normal too. I adviced her to continue the medicine for three months after delivery.She wont have any trouble this time, Go to the same gyneacologist again for delivery who had a talk with me on phone. next day when she visited the matternity home the gyneacologist wondered. she rang me in front of the patient and said how you did it?. I said not me but the true science and art of homoeopathy did this wonder for you, I am aquanted for homoeopthy to give such results. She thanked me again. Madhu delivered a healthy boy of 8 pounds happily with no trouble. today the boy is 6 month old and both of them are under my care. Weight, Hb and clotting tme of both of them is normal today and they are enjoying the life.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Kel you are right about the people of India resorting to homeopathy. I am visiting my inlaws and my BIL is a psychiatrist. I have come here to be treated by him and I am going to ask him if homeopathy in India is just sugar pills with the diluted stuff or extra chemicals they add to the sugar pills in their potent form. It should be interesting hearing from an Indian doc.


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## garywest (Apr 7, 2000)

Hello folks Kel nice research and Bonnei sorry if i spell names wrong i am in kinda middle of work Well there are always people who are not willin g to explore the FACT that homeopathy works.As I said in my previous posts I leave it to the individual to his/her own niews and opinions.Flux my freind No man I am just like to waste my time goin on IBs websites. LOL Now with all the medical tests and reports which points to me having IBS. Might I say by certified american doctors at University of Pennsylvania and Delaware Medical Hospital. So there si no mistakes regarding my IBS diagnosis. Perhaps you concluded that I had my diagnosis in INDIA? and so that theer was nothing wrong with me to begin with...hmm now please make your statments and judgements after verifying teh facts with me.As far as your comments as I said you are entitled to them. Kel has posted here on the above subject. No more said.take care folksgary in india


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Bonniei,you are a smart woman. you must not waste this opportunity to be treated by a homeopath while you are in India. The cost must be minimal.If you think that garywest is lying or delusional then all i can ask is ..... is everyone delusional?In many ways it is disrespectful for people like flux to automatically assume that over 25,000 Indian homeopaths and all of their patients are bumbling fools.They are not -- the doctors in europe are not -- the U.S. homeopaths are not. There is definitely something operating from an "ENERGETIC" level. we are nothing but energy at the deepest level. that is all we are. it is healing energy with energy. It Is PHYSICS.If you ask an Indian psychiatrist you may very likely get the wrong answer. Most professionals are going to defend what they do and criticize the other healing modalities.I asked my allergist a long time ago if homeopathy worked, and his reply was, "there does not seem to be any research to back it up". Based on dozens and dozens and dozens of irrefutable experiments and research he is WRONG.flux is trying to tell us that over 100 DOUBLE -BLIND, PLACEBO CONTROLLED experiments have all been botched/faked. this is ludicrous. the reason that the research clearly pointed that homeopathy was FAR more effective than a placebo --- time after time after time --- is because it WORKS.Bonniei -- save yourself now. we are not delusional. this stuff really does work.(BIL = brother-in-law...... i missed that at first. if by chance he rips on it, then i don't know what you have to lose by asking any number of homeopathic patients ar even seeing a homeopathic doctor --- according to garywest is only costs a few rupees (?????) it sounds like garywest underwent a different type of homeopathy than i am undergoing. mine is classical homeopathy which means that the patient takes a single dose and then waits a long time for the next symptom profile to be revealed (in my case -- 4 of my symptoms have been removed --- but i am still having bad reactions to foods --- this is frustrating).i wonder if india has classical homeopaths?????? how long are you going to be in india???? this should help determine what route you should take.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:flux is trying to tell us that over 100 DOUBLE -BLIND, PLACEBO CONTROLLED experiments have all been botched/faked.


Why should we assume that it is *just* these (homeopathy) trials? Maybe over 1000? 10,000?


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: or extra chemicals they add to the sugar pills in their potent form


every once in a while someone will say that the homeopath is "adding" modern drugs to the solution. this is not happening. first of all homeopathy is over 200 years old -- they did NOT have powerful drugs back then. In the 1800's homeopathy was the king of medicine in the united states. there is quite a bit of evidence that homeopathy was very effective in treating infectious disease outbreaks in the 19th century. they did not have powerful drugs back then to try and fool people.there is no way that homeopaths all over the world --- germany, france, poland, india, canada, united states, mexico, argentina etc etc ---- would resort to some type of worldwide scam.It just WORKS. and it works despite the fact that it is not well understood --- but fortunately our boys at Cal Institute of Technology and many other labs are finally showing us some of the physics that are involved.(have you ever wondered how a tiny little bird's brain can follow the electromagnetic force of the earths field in order to navigate thousands of miles???? a birds brain can do this because it is very susceptible to "ENERGETIC FORCES". the human brain has a similar pattern.i suspect that electro-convulsive shock therapy has some type of effect on something in the brain (maybe the magnetite) and that is why it can give us temporary relief from depression. once again it is using ENERGY (electricity) to treat a medical condition). --- but this is a treatment that is very unnatural and even dangerous long-term.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:every once in a while someone will say that the homeopath is "adding" modern drugs to the solution. this is not happening


Of course, since you have personally been preparing every batch of homeopathic medication planetwide even before Hahnemann himself was even born, we be assured that this statement is true.However, while there is almost assuredly examples of tainted homeopathy, it's not necessary for it to have an effect. Placebos seem to be quite effective all by themselves.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------flux is trying to tell us that over 100 DOUBLE -BLIND, PLACEBO CONTROLLED experiments have all been botched/faked.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Why should we assume that it is just these (homeopathy) trials? Maybe over 1000? 10,000?


flux, be serious. the studies are all DOUBLE-BLIND, PLACEBO CONTROLLED. are you saying that there is some type of MASTER scam being perpetuated all over the world??? this is pure foolishness especially since we have university researchers/professors who are directing the trials. pure foolishness.---- also there is not very much financial gain or incentive that is involved here. back in the 19th century almost every new england housewife had her own remedy kit. she had it because it worked. however, the allopathic doctors and the people who refused to believe it worked because it seemed "odd" --- even satanic to some -- decided to attack it. eventually the allopathic doctors got hooked up with the drug companies and the rest is history.fortunately, the rest of the world is not so heavily influenced by the "ad" men.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

flux, have you been mistaking the motor oil for food again? I warned you about that.the entire reason that they have PLACEBO-CONTROLLED experiments is so that they can avoid that pitfall. this is also why they have these experiments double-blinded.flux ---- you do understand what these experiments are all about???are you now finding fault with the way that scientists conduct testing???the outstanding results that came from this HUGE meta-analysis is due to one and only one reason --- energy medicine is valid!!!!! just deal with it!!!admit that you made a goof and move on.you were wrong on the...1. xylose sugar2. the water hypersensitivity issue3. the yeast hypersensitivity issue4. the food intolerance theory5. the pancreas - enzyme problem6. the gas/bloating issue (stace)7. the lady who you almost killed from contradicting her doctor8. the beta-hydroxgenase issue9. several others that i can not recall10. homeopathymaybe it's time to pack it in and just crack the books for awhile. (but then who will keep this thread going???? --- okay please stay!)


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:the studies are all DOUBLE-BLIND, PLACEBO CONTROLLED. are you saying that there is some type of MASTER scam being perpetuated all over the world???


More like master screwups. Maybe we should send out McDonalds job applications to these "researchers"?


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Excuse the miscommunication. My BIL is not a homeopath. He is treating me allopathically and he says homeopathy is not good for psychiatric type problems. However he has assured me that the pills are not tainted in India and I can vouch for the fact that millions of Indians believe in it and try it. Whetheer it is just placebo effect I cannot say.


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2003)

i don't know about the validity of homeopathy, but i do know this - i ONCE had bad ibs after eating sushi. now everytime i even THINK about eating sushi i get bad cramps. and when we go to the restaurant it gets even worse. this is even before i've had anything to eat. its comepletely psychological. my ibs is so linked to my brain that it is/would be hard to tell what is working or not. if i got it into my head that something was bad or good, then it would happen. it almost always does. i just wonder if that is what is happening for those who get improvement or feel worse after a treatment. though placebo reactions tend not to last, in my experience, though they can repeat themselves again and again. odd, isn't it.


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## garywest (Apr 7, 2000)

Hi folks, Kel and bonnenei Loosk like we got a whirlwind debate between u kel and our freind flux. Even in India we have articles and debates between allopaths and homeopaths.Bonnenei i fi may ask which city ru taking homeopathic meds from?im in hyderabad near bombay.But one thing we cannot DENY. WHen a person has a disease or condition in this case IBS and when he/she is on homeopathy and there are "conclusive" results ones which can be physically seen and documented of "cures" - cure means the disease shoudl not occur again, then we can say for sure Homeopathy works. There have been numerous cases which prove the same in case of homeopathy. Kel has posted some of them.Placebo it is not! Otherwise Homeopathy would not have survived. ANd a lady mentioned that homeopathy is poison. Well so wrong. No side effects at all in homeopathy.I will check posts laterstake careregardsgary in india


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quotelacebo it is not! Otherwise Homeopathy would not have survived.


non sequitur


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

It's Physics. We are energy and so is the treatment method. The Italian physicist offers a nice explanation as to how it might work. California Institute of Technology also offers some insight.garywest, always nice to hear from you. I know that since you are feeling better (not perfect but better) you won't be around much but your recovery gives hope to a lot of people. so far my gut problems have not been helped by homeopathy (some of my brain problems have been helped and i no longer feel sick during the day).i am anxious for it to help with my food intolerances but i just read that these problems are very difficult to solve -- patience is required.bonniei -- i believe --especially from my research and own experience-- that brain problems may be the easiestto solve. especially anxiety and panic (just my opinion).there is also a lot of evidence from the following link that brain problems can be a result of toxic substances like tartaric acid in the gut. http://www.greatplainslaboratory.com/autisminterview.html .i have wondered if some people have a liver that is not very efficient at breaking these compounds down and eliminating them.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

gary I am from Bombay but visiting my BIL in Cal.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:It's Physics.


in


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