# Probiotic Therapy Research Centre (Aus) and HPI



## sunspot19 (Aug 31, 2007)

Hi.I mentioned this in another post, but while tooling around about probiotics I came across this research centre in Australia which looks pretty interesting, the Probiotic Therapy Research Centre, which appears to be associated with a pretty famous Dr. Thomas Borody who has done a lot of research into using faecal flora implant techniques to essentially re-invigorate one's intestinal flora.The website is http://www.probiotictherapy.com.au/.The "about" page indicates the followingTRC was established by Dr Thomas Borody, gastroenterologist and director of the Centre for Digestive Diseases (CDD), Five Dock and director of PTRC, Five Dock. Dr Borody originally conceived the idea for creating such a centre in the year 2000. He wanted to provide new alternative treatments for patients who suffer from gastrointestinal problems using human probiotic infusions (HPIs). PTRC has 3 registered nurses, a technical officer and a receptionist. Dr Borody consults off site at CDD prior to treatment at PTRC. PTRC has 11 fully equipped procedure rooms, 1 processing room/laboratory and 2 consult rooms. PTRC is the only centre in the world that performs Human Probiotic Infusions (HPIs).They have helped with C. Difficile, colitis and IBS (C and D).So my questions arei) Anyone ever looked into this center or its associated Centre for Digestive Diseases (esp if you live in Australia)?(ii) They claim to have been able to have great success with colitis and C. Difficile infections, but also I understand there is a suggestion that there is a potential high rate of cure for IBS sufferers as well (to the extent our IBS may be flora related).I live in New York City and have a close friend who is a researcher at Albert Einstein. One of her colleagues has done cutting edge research into the use of faecal transfers to cure C. Difficile but she was unaware of its use for other illnesses. Especially if anyone is aware of people who have gone thru this treatment here in the US, would be highly interesting. I have seen websites where people appear to have done this themselves, which scares me - I would think you are far better off going through proper medical treatment if you are going to do this.Perhaps too cutting edge (and disgusting in a certain way) but if it is a potential cure, something to think about for those of us who are really at wits end.


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## sunspot19 (Aug 31, 2007)

If you do searches you will find some people who have posted blogs on their own experience with borody's procedure. I think in one case the person who had UC had a great recovery, while in another it was a bit touch and go.Then I think there are posts someplace else in this forum where someone tried it and actually went down hill. That person I believe had straight IBS and no UC.So I guess the danger with this technique as with everything else is there is not necessarily consistency in results, probably due to the fact that the gut is complex and the one size fits all solution isn't necessarily going to work every time.Personally before I'd go thru this procedure for a non-C. Difficile situation I'd want there to be more research into what exactly occurs and also some more analysis of the feces that are being used as the basis for the infusion. God forbid you pick a donor whose concoction turns out to be detrimental to you. Just a scary proposition.But I do admit, all very intriguing.Also, you will see that Borody's research papers where he did refer to IBS being "cured" was really for IBS-C, not IBS-D. Not sure why he never did an experiment with IBS-D - would be helpful had he some results with putting IBS-D in remission or curing it.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

FYI2007 IFFGD Symposium Summary Report, Very much worth reading/state of the art researchhttp://www.ibsgroup.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=92806"Gut Bacteria and Irritable Bowel Syndrome By: Eamonn, M. M. Quigley M.D., Alimentary Pharmabiotic Centre, University College Cork, Cork, IrelandBacteria are present in the normal gut (intestines) and in large numbers the lower parts of the intestine. These "normal" bacteria have important functions in life. A variety of factors may disturb the mutually beneficial relationship between the flora and its host, and disease may result. The possibility that gut bacteria could have a role in irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) may surprise some; there is indeed, now quite substantial evidence to support the idea that disturbances in the bacteria that populate the intestine may have a role in at least some patients with IBS. This article presents a discussion of the possible role of bacteria in IBS and various treatment approaches."Do bacteria play a role in IBS?The possibility that gut bacteria could have a role Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS) may surprize some; there is indeed, now quite substantial evidence to support the idea that distrubances in the bacteria that populate the intestines may have a role in at least some patients with IBS. What is this evidence? It can be summarized as follows:1. surveys which found that antibiotic use, well known to distrub flora, may predispose individuals to IBS.2. The observation that some individuals may develop IBS suddenly, and for the first time, following an episode of stomach or intestinal infection (gatroenteritis) caused by a bacterial infection.(Note: This is Post Infectious IBS)3. recent evidence that a very low level of inflammation may be present in the bowel wall of some IBS patients, a degree of inflammation that could well have resulted from abnormal interactions with bacteria in the gut.(There is a lot of research to the above, one mechansim is bacteria and the other a stress responce that effects the bowel, looking like it all works together really)4. The Suggestion that IBS maybe Associated with the abnormal presents, , in the small intestines, of types and numbers; a condition termed small bacterial overgrowth (SIBO)>(Not working out well as a cause) Does seem to be people with both.5. Accumaliting evidence to indicate that altering the bacteria in the gut, by antibiotics or probiotics, may improve symptoms in IBS.For some time, various studies have suggested the presence of changes in the kind of colonic flora in IBS patients. *The most consistent finding is a relative decrease in the population of one species of 'good' bacteria, bifidobacteria.*However, the methods employed in these studies have been subject to question and other studies have not always reproduced these finding. Nevertheless, these changes in the flora, maybe primary or secondary, could lead to the increase of bacterial species that produce more gas and other products of their metabolism. These could *CONTRIBUTE* to symptoms such as gas, bloating and diarrhea.""We still don't know the exact role bacteria has in IBS. More research is needed."http://www.aboutibs.org/Publications/currentParticipate.htmlalso fyiBacteria are germs that are normally in the gut. They are often referred to as the gut flora. Most bacteria are in the large intestine (colon). Some bacteria can cause infection; these are called pathogens. Other bacteria can be helpful. These helpful (or "good") bacteria are called probiotics. Medicines that destroy bacteria are called antibiotics.During IFFGD's 7th International Symposium on Functional Gastrointestinal Disorders in April 2007, we had the opportunity to interview a leading researcher, Eamonn Quigley, MD, on the topics of probiotics and antibiotics. Dr. Quigley is Professor of Medicine and Human Physiology at University College, Cork (National University of Ireland). Brooks Cash, MD adds comments about issues of safety and effectiveness of antibiotics.On this pageEamonn Quigley MD A role for probiotics in the treatment of IBS? Issues of safety and effectiveness with probiotics? How can probiotics work in treating IBS? A role for antibiotics in the treatment of IBS? Brooks Cash MD Careful use of antibiotics in treating IBS Is there a role for probiotics in the treatment of IBS?Dr. Quiqley discusses how our understanding of the importance of the interaction between our gut bacteria and ourselves is growing.http://www.aboutibs.org/site/learning-cent...corner/gutfloraMore info and videos on the right of the pagehttp://www.aboutibs.org/site/learning-center/video-corner/


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

here is some moreexpertinsights IBSPart 2: Novel Approaches to Treatment: Probiotics Take test now Download http://www.expertinsightscme.com/pt_yringel.cfmand check outAdvances in Treatment of Irritable Bowel Syndrome Part 1: New Perspectives on Pathophysiology, Diagnosis, and Treatment Take test now Download http://www.expertinsightscme.com/pt_yringel.cfm


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## 23392 (Jan 31, 2006)

If i could have had that treatment for C-diff [which i *got* thanks to the wrong mix of drugs!], i am quite sure i would have NO IBS right now.I had a very mild case of C-diff and didn't have any of the IBS symptoms i have had [different kind of diarrhea when i had it] *until* they socked me on flagyl! it tore the living #[email protected]! out of my insides, and the day after the last dose, i woke up with all the IBS symptoms, *suddenly,* that i coped with for so long.I did the hypnosis tapes once and got good results. Then i got food poisoning [near as i can tell] and never quite recovered after. So i did the tapes again--and again, great results, maybe even better. Down to usually 2, often one, sometimes 3 solid stools a day--almost normal! ONly rarely anything looser.and then...i got a stomach flu. @#$%!!!!! And despite being real good and trying to stay on the BRAT diet after so i didn't stress my guts too much, I'm back to distention, D, plus lots of gas. I HATE this!!! It's 5 days out and when i was normal i would have been OVER this by now! Trying Talissa's ProBio IF, post-haste, because i just cannot afford this.Anyone know if she's relocated yet or around the bboards? If you're listening, Talissa: You've been a tremendous help to me and i've always appreciated your posts.


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## mercuryp (Mar 20, 2008)

Hi you said that you have a friend at Albert Einstein who knows someone that has done cutting edge research on faecal flora infusion for C diff.Is this person also at Einstein? I ask because I have a 7 year old who has had recurrent c diff and is suffering greatly. Conventional treatment is not working for him. I have been corresponding with Tom Borody who feels this is the way to go. My only problem is that I can't find someone to do it. I live in the NYC area. Thank you!


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Join Medscape for free.New Recommendations Issued for Clostridium difficile-Associated Diseasehttp://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/570064?src=top10


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## distressed (Jan 7, 2009)

I have had the treatment several times....for post infectious IBS. Each time it stopped my symptoms cold for around 6 months, but ultimately I relapse....When i say stopped my symptoms cold I mean, normal bowel movement once a day, rarely any intestinal discomfort...certainly nothing that would require any kind of tablet, or supplement etc, and basically eat whatever. So, there is no doubt that the treatment works for flora imbalance....I would swear my life upon it, but I cannot figure out how I relapse, if I could I reckon I would know how to permanently cure Post Infectious IBS.The treatment is challenging, and definitely not for the faint hearted. It does initially make me feel very very sick for the first week or so post treatment. It is also expensive. If this were a low cost treatment it would be a miracle.But yes, from experience I can tell you that this is a highly effective, reliable treatment. Just wish I could stay permanently fixed.Whoever is doing research into digestive disorders should push a huge whack of research and funding into this and expand it worldwide, and it should receive government backing/funding. If a pharmaceutical company could find a way to package what this treatment does into a pill, they'd make billions.


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Distress,have you comment here about HPI before?Because another did few months ago....


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## distressed (Jan 7, 2009)

no I havent made comments about the treatment before


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## idkwia (Feb 26, 2009)

I wanted to reopen this thread. I am fascinated and encouraged by this form of therapy. I am in the UK but I have spoken by telephone to Prof Borody at the Centre for Digestive Diseases in Australia. He certainly makes a compelling case for Human Probiotic Therapy (HPI) also known as Fecal Transplantation. I have read on other boards about a number of people who have administered human feces themselves by enema and cured their Ulcerative Colitis.I would welcome other people's thoughts, particuarly if you have tried this and even more particularly if you know of anyone in the UK or Europe who carries out this type of therapy.


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## sunspot19 (Aug 31, 2007)

Idkwia, curious, in your discussion with Prof Brody, what type of IBS are you suffering from and were you post-infectious IBS?I admit even now I am highly interested in this topic, though I basically gave up on focusing on it as a potential cure, mainly because I have also ready horror stories where it screwed people up more, rather than helping them.I have chronic D, though I control it extremely well right now with a couple of immodiums a day. That stated, clearly immodium is NOT the cure, and I am still desparately searching for a longer term solution.I took a stool test which showed I had no Bifidobacteria and I wonder if that is a major cause of my problems, but of course I have no idea. Have tried over the counter probiotics of every sort to fix my bifido problem, but nothing seems to have changed my state.Two years ago I gave up, started using immodium, and have been very happy. But lately I am getting back my concern that I need to find a longer term solution. I too would love to hear from other sufferers (especially IBS-D sufferers) who had this done. I was hoping "distressed" is still around - where are you located distressed and where did you get treatment?


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## idkwia (Feb 26, 2009)

sunspot19 said:


> Idkwia, curious, in your discussion with Prof Brody, what type of IBS are you suffering from and were you post-infectious IBS?I admit even now I am highly interested in this topic, though I basically gave up on focusing on it as a potential cure, mainly because I have also ready horror stories where it screwed people up more, rather than helping them.I have chronic D, though I control it extremely well right now with a couple of immodiums a day. That stated, clearly immodium is NOT the cure, and I am still desparately searching for a longer term solution.I took a stool test which showed I had no Bifidobacteria and I wonder if that is a major cause of my problems, but of course I have no idea. Have tried over the counter probiotics of every sort to fix my bifido problem, but nothing seems to have changed my state.Two years ago I gave up, started using immodium, and have been very happy. But lately I am getting back my concern that I need to find a longer term solution. I too would love to hear from other sufferers (especially IBS-D sufferers) who had this done. I was hoping "distressed" is still around - where are you located distressed and where did you get treatment?


I am not 100% sure that I have IBS as I don't fit the normal criteria for IBS. However, it is likely that I have a functional problem and IBS is described as a functional problem. My issue started after an infection so is therefore post infectious.I have only read good things about Fecal Transplantation although there were some people that it didn't help but most of these did it themselves. Where did you read testimonials of people that were really screwed up by it?If you want to read some testimonials of some people who self treated then look at http://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=1612467 By the way, a number of people have self treated by administering probiotics that you buy rather than using feces which may be worth a shot.


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## sunspot19 (Aug 31, 2007)

idkwia said:


> I am not 100% sure that I have IBS as I don't fit the normal criteria for IBS. However, it is likely that I have a functional problem and IBS is described as a functional problem. My issue started after an infection so is therefore post infectious.I have only read good things about Fecal Transplantation although there were some people that it didn't help but most of these did it themselves. Where did you read testimonials of people that were really screwed up by it?If you want to read some testimonials of some people who self treated then look at http://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=1612467 By the way, a number of people have self treated by administering probiotics that you buy rather than using feces which may be worth a shot.


Yes, been checking out the Healingwell blog, looks like a group with UC have been self-"medicating" with fecal transplants. Amazing.I am so scared to just go off and do this on my own though. I fear I will make myself worse.


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## idkwia (Feb 26, 2009)

sunspot19 said:


> Yes, been checking out the Healingwell blog, looks like a group with UC have been self-"medicating" with fecal transplants. Amazing.I am so scared to just go off and do this on my own though. I fear I will make myself worse.


You could try really dosing up on bifidobacteria and perhaps using an enema instead of taking them orally. I know that some people have self treated using VSL#3 by enema with seemingly good results.Either way, I hope some others on this site get the courage to give this a go.


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## sunspot19 (Aug 31, 2007)

idkwia said:


> You could try really dosing up on bifidobacteria and perhaps using an enema instead of taking them orally. I know that some people have self treated using VSL#3 by enema with seemingly good results.Either way, I hope some others on this site get the courage to give this a go.


Interestingly, my experiments with VSL #3 found that I had no perceptible changes with it, so I am not sure the enema route with VSL in any event would be all that helpful. I think I need to first find a probio that even transiently has some effect, and then perhaps if I find such a thing think about next steps if just oral use doesn't get me anywhere.It is clearly anecdotally the case that during or after illness and/or antibiotic treatment, you can use yoghurt, kefir, or probiotics to help "right" your system again. However, it also to me seems to be the case that if you do not right yourself immediately and you otherwise obliterate the flora in the stomach, later treatment with probios may just not have the effect they would otherwise have had had you been more careful earlier on. Perhaps the positive effect of probios in relatively healthy people is it gives you kind of a jump kick to overwhelm the nasty bacteria in your system and/or help symbiotically set the stage for your normal flora to re-develop.My fear and my suspicions are that in people with IBS symptoms that were a result of disturbed flora are beyond the point where a short term pro bio fix really gets them anywhere. Either they need to keep going with the probios or suffer going back to the steady state of poor flora. Perhaps that is where one day the fecal transplant technique will help bridge the gap even for those who do not have C. Difficile or UC or other ailments.I have realized that in '05 when I first started to have some trouble but no IBS that perhaps my flora was being disturbed. But I didn't really focus on it and just kept living ridiculously by working all the time (day and night), eating poorly (can we say lots of popcorn, tubs of ice cream, stupid diet really), and then finally as time went on and I started to have more problems took a series of antibiotics that probably just did me in. After that started having postprandial D, and before long it was just a continuous daily D exercise. No pain, nothing else, just D. Tests all negative, colon healthy, nothing.Funny thing is at the very same time all this happened, I stopped being able to process milk products and the doc said this can happen suddenly. This after many years of drinking milk and eating all sorts of milk products. It was said lots of "asians" can't process milk. But I am Indian, and in the Indian diet milk is a huge product used. I don't believe my L intolerance is really anything more than again connected to my intestinal flora issues. Once I solve those, I am certain I will solve my intolerance to milk products.Oh well, long winded. Sorry!SunSpot


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## idkwia (Feb 26, 2009)

sunspot19 said:


> Interestingly, my experiments with VSL #3 found that I had no perceptible changes with it, so I am not sure the enema route with VSL in any event would be all that helpful. I think I need to first find a probio that even transiently has some effect, and then perhaps if I find such a thing think about next steps if just oral use doesn't get me anywhere.It is clearly anecdotally the case that during or after illness and/or antibiotic treatment, you can use yoghurt, kefir, or probiotics to help "right" your system again. However, it also to me seems to be the case that if you do not right yourself immediately and you otherwise obliterate the flora in the stomach, later treatment with probios may just not have the effect they would otherwise have had had you been more careful earlier on. Perhaps the positive effect of probios in relatively healthy people is it gives you kind of a jump kick to overwhelm the nasty bacteria in your system and/or help symbiotically set the stage for your normal flora to re-develop.My fear and my suspicions are that in people with IBS symptoms that were a result of disturbed flora are beyond the point where a short term pro bio fix really gets them anywhere. Either they need to keep going with the probios or suffer going back to the steady state of poor flora. Perhaps that is where one day the fecal transplant technique will help bridge the gap even for those who do not have C. Difficile or UC or other ailments.I have realized that in '05 when I first started to have some trouble but no IBS that perhaps my flora was being disturbed. But I didn't really focus on it and just kept living ridiculously by working all the time (day and night), eating poorly (can we say lots of popcorn, tubs of ice cream, stupid diet really), and then finally as time went on and I started to have more problems took a series of antibiotics that probably just did me in. After that started having postprandial D, and before long it was just a continuous daily D exercise. No pain, nothing else, just D. Tests all negative, colon healthy, nothing.Funny thing is at the very same time all this happened, I stopped being able to process milk products and the doc said this can happen suddenly. This after many years of drinking milk and eating all sorts of milk products. It was said lots of "asians" can't process milk. But I am Indian, and in the Indian diet milk is a huge product used. I don't believe my L intolerance is really anything more than again connected to my intestinal flora issues. Once I solve those, I am certain I will solve my intolerance to milk products.Oh well, long winded. Sorry!SunSpot


On reading your laat post I am wondering if you also have Fructose Malabsorption (FM). In Australia they have discovered that up to 30% of people who thought they had IBS do in fact have FM. The symptoms you describe certainly fit FM. Most people with FM have to do a FODMAP diet which you will have to Google. You can get FM at any time of life. You take a hydrogen breath test to check for it.As an Indian have you ever tried Ayurvedic medicine for your ailment?Other than FM it seems that if you have no bifidobacteria this is going to cause some problems.


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## distressed (Jan 7, 2009)

Hey, I'm still around...maybe message me directly I try to avoid reading forums all the time.I had the treatment at the PRTC here in Sydney in fact Ive had it a few times.Treatment does work...problem is I get sick again.....haven't figured that part out yet but I suspect its to do with flora balance and maintaining that....Ive tried and still take probiotics...but even still its an issue. Theres definitely bug stuff going on for me though....mine all started after a long bout with C.Diff about 10 years ago. I recently tried Rifaximin too but it didnt seem helpful at all so I stopped it after a week.Any other questions maybe contact me directly? I'm happy to post but unless I know someones looking for me its a bit tough to be around.Have a good one,


sunspot19 said:


> Idkwia, curious, in your discussion with Prof Brody, what type of IBS are you suffering from and were you post-infectious IBS?I admit even now I am highly interested in this topic, though I basically gave up on focusing on it as a potential cure, mainly because I have also ready horror stories where it screwed people up more, rather than helping them.I have chronic D, though I control it extremely well right now with a couple of immodiums a day. That stated, clearly immodium is NOT the cure, and I am still desparately searching for a longer term solution.I took a stool test which showed I had no Bifidobacteria and I wonder if that is a major cause of my problems, but of course I have no idea. Have tried over the counter probiotics of every sort to fix my bifido problem, but nothing seems to have changed my state.Two years ago I gave up, started using immodium, and have been very happy. But lately I am getting back my concern that I need to find a longer term solution. I too would love to hear from other sufferers (especially IBS-D sufferers) who had this done. I was hoping "distressed" is still around - where are you located distressed and where did you get treatment?


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