# exciting news for me



## trbell (Nov 1, 2000)

this is exciting news for me as it shows how CBT can modify things like cortisol which affect cfs and fibro.http://www.ibsgroup.org/cgi-local/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=000706tom


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2003)

I tried to make your link a bit more accessible, Tom: http://www.ibsgroup.org/cgi-local/ubbcgi/u...c&f=10&t=000706 Hope this works and helps,Evie


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## M&M (Jan 20, 2002)

Sounds neat - Thanks for sharing Tom!!


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## moldie (Sep 25, 1999)

Thanks for the info tom!


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## trbell (Nov 1, 2000)

This means that almost any licensed psychologist should be able to do the therapy or refer you to someone who can. Im surprised this wasn't greeted with hostility here.tom


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## Clair (Sep 16, 2000)

Tom,I don't see why this suggestion should be greeted with hostility here - different things work for different people.However, its important to note that Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is made up of subsets of sufferers...those with onset of illness linked to viral infection and those who have not. Surely this will affect what treatments work and which ones will not for each subgroup.


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## Susan Purry (Nov 6, 2001)

Thanks for sharing over here Tom. Good point Clair. I suspect that perhaps those with acute sudden onset experience a different outcome than those with chronic gradual onset??


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## M&M (Jan 20, 2002)

Tom, most of us over here want to get better. Any suggestion of something that might work for even just 1 person means someone, somewhere will get better. And that's _always_ good news!! And, yes I suspect you are right Clair. Good observation!


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## trbell (Nov 1, 2000)

I'd like to get more informaion on this as I'm basing what I say on an abstract from the internet but it reads as if CBT has been shown by Cleare to adjust levels of cortisol in the brain and so any condition that is connected to high or low cortisol could be helped and it has nothing to do with cause. I'm not sure if this is clear?what I was referring to was that on the general forum this tends to get into the weird arguments about whether it's all in the mind or in the body.tom


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2003)

I've never understood why things can't be thought of as being in both the body and the mind... because they are interrelated... just as is the *Spirit. When all of these human components are working smoothly, the result is improved wellbeing, is it not?People who become defensive at the thought that they might be able to improve their physical health with some psychological therapies are only shortchanging themselves. I am a prime example of someone who is able to persevere only because I have worked very diligently at improving my self-awareness. There is so much that we can do for ourselves.Thank you so much for posting this, Tom. Love you too, EvieP.S. Have you noticed that since I went off the Lexapro how much more mellow I've become?


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## M&M (Jan 20, 2002)

One thing about this forum Tom, we don't have the energy to debate this kind of stuff. If somebody has a question, we'll answer it. If somebody has a link, we'll click on it. If somebody needs a hug, we'll do that too. That's about all we have the energy for







Whatever floats your boat, right?


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## Clair (Sep 16, 2000)

I agree with Evie wholeheartedly..mind and body are interlinked and perhaps in ways we are yet to understand, improving the health of one will have an effect on the other.This is not to say that in the instance of viral onset ME/CFS that treatments such as CBT will eradicate the illness, but could provide the sufferer with sufficiently effective management tools to improve their quality of life. However, this does not mean it will work for everyone, as with graded exercise progrmas designed for M.E. sufferers do not work for everyone.Tom - I think the head versus body argument is probably not as relevant in this case, research into M.E. has provided some evidence of differences in immunological and endocrinal markers from M.E. sufferers compared with the normal population. From what I understand with IBS, research has yet to provide clear evidence of biochemical/organic differences between IBS sufferers and the normal population. And as MrsM rightly says - we just dont have energy to argue on here - we're too darn tired


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## trbell (Nov 1, 2000)

Clair, What this researcjer is saying is that CBT can normalize hormone functioning: "Some patients with CFS have a disturbance to the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis that lowers the level of cortisol in their blood. But, says Anthony Cleare of the Institute of Psychiatry in London, UK, this hormonal deficit can be corrected by cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) aimed at gradually improving the physical and mental well being of the patient." This is basically what CBT and/or medications do for depression. For some reason people have a hardtime understanding that depression basicaly means the body is not working right. Doctors and psychologists diagnose somene as depressed based pretty much on sleep and appetite problems.tom


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## M&M (Jan 20, 2002)

Well Tom, another thing that's keeping me from being too wordy here, is that my fog isn't allowing me to actually understand what you're saying. I think, in theory, I understand what this researcher is saying. But, I think it's also important to remember that ME is a complex disorder, that for some people, yes may involve the hormone cortisol, but for other people a hormone problem may not be involved. ME is caused by a lot of different things, so for some people, readjusting cortisol levels may work, and for others, it might not. I am currently on medicinal therapy aimed at controlling/readjusting my cortisol levels, and it isn't doing much for me. But, for someone else, it might be enough to put them in remission. Bottom line - If someone's ME was induced by improper cortisol levels, I think this therapy would help. However, if someone's ME was _not_ induced by improper cortisol levels, I think this therapy would not be too fruitful. Does this make sense?


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## Clair (Sep 16, 2000)

perhaps i'm reading your post wrong but...your assuming that everyone with CFS/ME has depression, while people with chronic illness do have reason to feel depressed at times it does not follow that all sufferers of CFS/ME are depressed.I for one am not depressed, might get occasionally pissed off that my body doesnt do what I command - but for the most part I have slowed down in life and like to have a laugh - as laughter is good for the soul.


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## Ian (Apr 18, 1999)

Regarding cortisol levels in CFS patients, the CFS unit at King's/Maudsley (of which the Institute of Psychiatry forms a part, I believe) conducted tests which showed, on average, slightly lower cortisol levels in patients.However, having done the 12 hour urine sample collection, my result was 'high normal'.Nothing's conclusive!Ian


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2003)

Love your attitude, Clair !! Atta girl !!!I suppose it just plain makes sense that we're all very different. I happen to also have clinical depression.... but my chemistry is probably different from yours.... and that's probably why I benefit from CBT where others might not?Evie


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## trbell (Nov 1, 2000)

Ian, I'm curious about this study and Cleare hasn't responded yet to my email. Since you live close could you call and get some info? You or he could send it back channel but it looks like others have some interest as well.tom


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## trbell (Nov 1, 2000)

Evie, You live close to IFFGD and they are having a big conference next weekend that might have something on this?tom


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## Ian (Apr 18, 1999)

Tom,I'm probably not going to have time to do much research in the next week, then I'm out of London for another week. However the following are based on my experience and discussions as an out patient at the King's CFS unit:- The unit is headed by someone other than Anthony Cleare so I've never specifically discussed his work.- The unit is a strong advocate of CBT and graded exercise for its patients. This in itself is very contentious as debate here and elsewhere has proved. However, the unit feels that in the absence of any other treatment, this is the best they can offer. - The unit is sympathetic to the notion that symptoms and the syndrome (that includes IBS & types of Fibromyalgia) may be due to a disfunctional autonomic nervous system and disruption to the HPA axis.- Tests have indicated that patients seem, on average, to have lowered cortisol levels, although that in itself is not a prime cause of symptoms nor fully conclusive of anything. Apparently just administering shots of cortisol is not a remedy.- I believe they are surveying cortisol levels in patients before and after a 12 month course of CBT treatment. If I find out if anything from this trial, I'll let you know.Any other information I come across, I'll post here too.Ian


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2003)

Three things, Tom:1) Thank you for the reminder of the conference2) I believe it is geared for physicians and not the average lay person like me3) I am performing on Sunday and have rehearsals Friday & Saturday so I don't see where I can fit in a 5-hour trip to Milwaukee.(In case anyone wonders... when I am involved in dance... it takes me out of myself so that I am not constantly depressed, anxious or worrying about my health... that's why I do it.)But thanx for suggesting, Evie


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## trbell (Nov 1, 2000)

Evie, IFFGD was started by a ay person so I would think Nancy woud welcome your interest?Ian, Thanks for the information. I'm interested in this both for myself and as a profewsional and would appreciate anything you post here or Back channel. My thinking is that just like CBT can adjust eves of serotonin in depression, ibs, etc., it might adjust cortisol levels but this is HIGHLY specuative.tom


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2003)

Hi,I know I'm on the CFS and Fribro site, but I'm curious what the HPA axis is and how that and the ANS relate to Fibro, CFS and IBS(my main interest). If someone could give me the overview that would be great. I've looked up stuff on ANS online, but its all too new research and complicated to make any sense to me.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2003)

Here's a site that defines the ANS: http://www.nda.ox.ac.uk/wfsa/html/u05/u05_010.htm And here are sites that discuss the HPA Axis as it relates to CFS: http://www.med.ucla.edu/ndp/Newsletters/Wi...teredStress.htm http://www.cfshub.com/hpaaxis.html And here is one that ties 'em all together:http://aolsearch.aol.com/redir?src=websear...com%2Fpages%2Fo verlaps.html[/URL]Hope these help,







Evie


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## Ian (Apr 18, 1999)

Essence,Good sites for overview of these overlapping syndromes.Ian


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