# Please help and discuss, NEED TO CURE! LETS ALL DO THIS!



## j123

Hi everyone,This is my first post, though I have been following these forums for a long time now and decided that I have waited to long to post. Like many of you, I have what we call LG. My case does not sound as severe as some people's cases I've read on this site, but it certainly is not a mild case. Heck, my heart goes out to everyone who suffers from this condtition no matter how mild or severe it is.I completly understand the stress, nerves, paranoia and self-conciousness that comes with LG. This is a condition that I would not wish upon ANYONE! I am absolutley sick of altering my work, social and love life around this deabilitating condition.*Before I get into this I just want to thank everyone who has posted this section of the forum!* Your stories have deeply touched me, as I can relate to many of them. I have tried so many of the cures people have listed, yet I am sitting here on these forums again looking for something new to try.There is so much I want to say, but I won't go through it all. But my LG has recently gotten worse in the past week after somewhat 'calming down' a little. And for the reason I am not exactly sure. Im not even exactly sure what I was doing to calm it, but I was following a few tips I have learnt from this site.Anyway, here are my common symptoms:-Smell as if passed gas without physically knowing-BAD smell, I mean bad! Ranging anywhere from a really bad 'egg' fart smell, to a putrid rotten smell, to a sewerage smell and even sometime a fecal smell.-Sometimes I have a warm sensation in my anus area, but this is not as common as my other symptoms-Nerves and anxiety make it worse! This is crippling because not a day goes by that I don't think of my LG. -People scratching, touching and covering their nose. Comments on something smells or the someone farted remark. Sometimes I can also smell it, at times I cannot (this is when paranoia comes in leading to nerves which normally make sit worse)-Friends saying something something smells like ###### or someone shat themselves and even is there a sewerage drain around here?-Sometimes I get constipated (even though my fiber intake is high) but sometimes I have a bm everyday (1-2 was normall daily for me before I 'caught' LG)-'Messy' stools. What I mean by this is I often can sit on the toilet wipping for 10-15 mins as there is always more 'mess'. Pretty damn gross, annoying and stressful at the same time.Those are the most common ones, there might be one or two more but I am more focused on the rest of what I will share.Some other notes on my LG are The smell coming suddenly without warning. Smell commonly coming on after eating 30-75 mins after. Smell coming on before a bm. Smell after a bm. And like every post I have read, one of the most frustrating facts is that I am a VERY CLEAN person! The most common smell I experience or emit is that of a rottern fart. It is quite often bordertlining an even more offensive smell.Like many of you I also believe that many foods trigger LG. Big no no's for me are: Cheese (wwhhhyyyyy), pizza, and processed foods. These include, 2 min noodles but more importantly processed meats. Processed beef ( McDonalds, Hungry jacks etc) gives me the WORST LG. This is when I experience the sewerage and fecal odor. It is absolutley discusting and I feel like doing is locking myself away from everyone when I get it. I do not get it that often but when I do and I am around people I can see it on their faces that they can smell it. I think some people have actually linked the smell with me, but most people look around for the source not knowing it is me. One last thing before I turn this into an essay. I have a symptoms that I have not read on this site. This may sound werid, but then again to someone who suffers from LG not much is werid at all. Quite often when I experience the various LG odors, If I wipe my Ass with wet toilet paper I often get fibre clusters. I cannot think how to word this properly but it is as if some of the material my boxers or jocks will be in my crack. When I wipe I often have them on the tp. What I find notable about this is after I get rid of the little flTaffs of material the smell completely goes away (temporarily) or it eases up alot to a level that I actually feel somewhat comfortable with).Thanks for your time guys, I would love to hear your resoponses. Lets discuss this issue and find ways that we all can rid ourselves of this extreme burden!Jason G,p.s I did not spell check so sorry in advance


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## ThreeYearsAndCounting

My clinical psychologist (cognitive behavior training to learn how to deal with this) had a patient prior to me (about 4 years ago) who had FBO like myself. I had my 2nd session on the 10th of October (6 days ago) and asked him to ask the kid (who's now a sophomore in college) to give an update on his life. Supposedly, the kid cured himself using Agaricus Extract (from mushrooms) that cleansed his kidneys (a source of body odors if kidney filtration doesn't work as expected). I bought it a couple days ago and it arrives tomorrow. The kid, like me, wasted hundreds -- if not thousands -- trying to cure himself but when his family went on a vacation to Africa for the soccer tournament in 2010 (World Cup? LOL, don't care about any sports other than basketball/tennis so forgive me), he met a naturopath -- who while never experiencing such a case (body odor) -- had heard of others cleansing themselves of all kinds of things (cancer, diseases, etc.) using Agaricus so he put the kid on it and the kid was cured.Can't wait for it to arrive...lettuce be cereal, chances are it won't work, but I want to be leaf. (mikey...)


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## WTF

Man you have gas incontience and I think that it is due to a weakness in the internal anal sphincter, do a manometey to find if your sphincter's pressure is good. Diet may help but in your case the rectum is in touch with the atmosphere so that's why everyone you walk through smells the odor. The last think that you are talking about is that because the internal anal sphincter doesn't close (the tone of the internal anal sphincter is not good) you feel the this warm sensation in your anus and if there is no hair down there you will that your ass is little wet. I guess that is why you find fibre clusters in your anus. And when you wipe it all the bad smell "wet" thing goes.I hope that you will find a solution. Some sufferers treat themselves with solesta or bulkin injections. I will tell you something and I hope that you will understand it... This problem is yours and you yourself must treat it, don't trust your doctor if he tells you that you are alright, fight for your problem and I hope you will find the way.DO A MANOMETRY!


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## ileo

ThreeYearsAndCounting said:


> My clinical psychologist (cognitive behavior training to learn how to deal with this) had a patient prior to me (about 4 years ago) who had FBO like myself. I had my 2nd session on the 10th of October (6 days ago) and asked him to ask the kid (who's now a sophomore in college) to give an update on his life. Supposedly, the kid cured himself using Agaricus Extract (from mushrooms) that cleansed his kidneys (a source of body odors if kidney filtration doesn't work as expected). I bought it a couple days ago and it arrives tomorrow. The kid, like me, wasted hundreds -- if not thousands -- trying to cure himself but when his family went on a vacation to Africa for the soccer tournament in 2010 (World Cup? LOL, don't care about any sports other than basketball/tennis so forgive me), he met a naturopath -- who while never experiencing such a case (body odor) -- had heard of others cleansing themselves of all kinds of things (cancer, diseases, etc.) using Agaricus so he put the kid on it and the kid was cured.Can't wait for it to arrive...lettuce be cereal, chances are it won't work, but I want to be leaf. (mikey...)


for $$$$$$ sake people


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## ThreeYearsAndCounting

ileo said:


> for $$$$$$ sake people


Huh? The psychologist is doing great work, but I don't want to "learn to deal with it" if it affects my social life in every possible way. It arrives tomorrow...


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## WTF

Maaaaan the problem is in our ASSES!


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## j123

WTF, Thank you for your interesting comment. I have researched gas incontience, but I personally did not think that is what I have. I will definetely have a much deeper look into it. I understand what you mean, it is up to us all to cure ourselves. And it definetly will help with a number of fellow suffers keeping each other posted on what is working for them. What you said definetly makes sense to me, you seem to be very knowledgable so if you don't mind me probing you for information. What exactly is a manometry, how do you think it would help my condition and where could I get it done? (Thank you)WhatThreeYearsandCounting/Mikey: That is extremely interesting! Could you *pleeaassee* keep me posted on whether the Agaricus Extract works for you. Also how long it takes to 'kick in' and also the dosage amount you take. (If it works no more wasting money..... but more importantly no more F***in' odor!)Thank you so much guys!Jason G


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## WTF

j123 said:


> WTF, Thank you for your interesting comment. I have researched gas incontience, but I personally did not think that is what I have. I will definetely have a much deeper look into it. I understand what you mean, it is up to us all to cure ourselves. And it definetly will help with a number of fellow suffers keeping each other posted on what is working for them. What you said definetly makes sense to me, you seem to be very knowledgable so if you don't mind me probing you for information. What exactly is a manometry, how do you think it would help my condition and where could I get it done? (Thank you)WhatThreeYearsandCounting/Mikey: That is extremely interesting! Could you *pleeaassee* keep me posted on whether the Agaricus Extract works for you. Also how long it takes to 'kick in' and also the dosage amount you take. (If it works no more wasting money..... but more importantly no more F***in' odor!)Thank you so much guys!Jason G


http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/aha/umanalrectal.htmhttp://ibs.about.com/od/ibsglossaryae/g/Anorectal-Manometry.htmhttp://www.gastroconsultantsqc.com/services/procedures/anorectal-manometry/


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## ileo

kidney cleanse / liver cleanses are not mainstream medicine, at the most they will do nothing, worst, they could harm you imo.Renal insufficiency might be associated with presence of odorant chemicals in the blood, namely ammonia, dimethylamine and trimethylamine. Its called fetor uremicus/ uremic fetor and its associated with kidney failure. You would be sick in hospital on dialysis if you had this, not "happily" walking around listening to comments about odor.


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## ileo

and just to be clear, a kidney cleanse wouldn't treat kidney failure. I don't think it could treat anything, apart from an excess of money in your wallet.


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## ThreeYearsAndCounting

ileo said:


> and just to be clear, a kidney cleanse wouldn't treat kidney failure. I don't think it could treat anything, apart from an excess of money in your wallet.


Research has shown otherwise.







It extends the lives of those suffering from kidney failure...


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## j123

*@ Ileo*, ty for your post. What you said with those chemicals being present in the blood made sense to me, but maybe people could have this without having kidney failure. Us 'LG' suffers are pretty much acustommed to throwing money at possible solutions as doctors cannot explain what we have. (Of course I mean throwing money at something within reason). I will look into kidney cleanses and the potential harm before I try it. The Agaricus Extract that *ThreeyearsandCounting* suggested does sound promising to me.*@ WTF,* thank you again for your information. I will be looking into doing a manometry, it isn't a desirable procedure but anything that may help this this is a must to try. And I agree, the smell definetly comes from our asses.But also what *ThreeYearsandCounting* suggested could possibly be a cure. If the odors are trapped inside of us without going into detail, that also makes sense on what is possibly causing our odor.* (Please keep me posted on your progress







)*I want to look into what everyone suggests. I am sick of living like this. When I dont have the LG I am as happy as anything. Enjoying my life with friends and loved ones. Then when the LG kicks in without warning, I'm paranoid and want to isolate myself which is impossible to do at work. This condition definetly is keeping us from our potential. Socially, career wise and Friendship wise.


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## WTF

I suggest to do a manometry to see if the internal anal sphincter tone is good... I believe that you must start from here. You will decide..


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## ileo

ThreeYearsAndCounting said:


> Research has shown otherwise.
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> It extends the lives of those suffering from kidney failure...


Weasle word: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word link?


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## ileo

j123 said:


> as doctors cannot explain what we have.


this is defeatist don't you think~?


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## ileo

Ok instead of my trolling, here is a contribution to discussion:*Rectal odor - a framework for classifying the etiology and management of the symptom.*Firstly, all this is speculative and not based on much evidence (it is very difficult to find any previous research on this topic). It is my attempt over the years to approach a symptom of odor from the anus, a symptom I have come to term rectal malodor, in a logical way. This is basically the contents of a larger document I work on.There are over 1000 research papers published on the topic of halitosis, bad odor coming from the more socially acceptable end of the GI tract. Researchers rarely address rectal malodor because it has such great taboo/stigma. This needs to end because clearly there are a lot of people suffering with this problem.Definition:Rectal malodor (rectal fetor, rectal odor) is a symptom that can be defined as an offensive smell issued from the anus or the perianal region that cannot be explained by transient, normal physiological processes. Basic classification of causes of rectal odor:i. Compromise of the seal between GI tract and external environmentThis includes impairment of the continence mechanism, but also pathological communications with the external environment such as fistulae. Lesions which mechanically interfere with closure of the anal canal may allow inappropriate transit of physiologically malodorous substances, such as prolapsed hemorrhoids or anal fissures.ii. Pathologically malodorous substances / pathologically increased odor of physiological substances passing per rectumThis category refers to expression of substances that are pathologically malodorous. Flatus and feces are malodorous in health, but their odor can be altered by pathological processes. Malodorous substance passing per rectum can be gas, liquid or solid (in reality it is air borne odorant volatiles that give the perception of malodor. Solids and liquids may still have odor, but this is only as volatiles are released into the gas phase). Examples could include:_gasseous: intestinal gas__liquid: liquid stool elements, pus, mucus, digested blood__solid: feces, congealed blood_iii.Malodorous perianal conditionsContinuous/intermittentI also think it may be important to differentiate between continuous rectal odor and intermittent rectal odor. Intermittent rectal odor likely indicates competent continence mechanism. Dysbiosis/overgrowth might increase the volume and/or odor flatus and the odor of feces. Mechanism: more gut bacterial activity -> more VSC production -> more odor. This could lead to an intermittent rectal odor symptom Similarly incomplete evacuation of stool (normal rectal evacuation >90%) can lead to increased odor &/or vol of flatus and increased odor of feces. (reservoir stagnation -> longer time for bacterial activity and VSC production) However for continuous rectal odor, I believe there must be some compromise of the seal between the GI tract and the external environment. This might be made worse by pathologically increased odor of flatus/feces and causes of incomplete evacuation of stool , but without the compromise of the continence mechanism, there is no continuous odor. Continuous rectal odor symptom needs to be considered in terms of the continence mechanism primarily, and then secondarily in terms of incomplete evacuation/obstructed defecation and pathologically increased odor of physiological substances passed per rectum. Continuous rectal malodor is primarily a physical issue, treated by physical means such as pelvic floor exercise/surgery. Low sulfur/low fermentable carbohydrate dieting, dietary supplements to reduce odor, fecal bacteriotherapy, correcting incomplete evacuation, all these things are adjuncts.Management:[background=transparent]The management of rectal malodor is cause dependent One way of considering the management strategies is by dividing them as follows:[/background]i. Reduction of odor and volume of flatus and reduction of odor of fecesii. Complete evacuation of stooliii. Increase competence of continence mechanismDepending upon the exact cause(s) of rectal malodor, different combinations of the above approaches may be indicated. Examples of the above management strategies (many, many others):[background=transparent]Reduce odor & vol of flatus and reduce odor of feces[/background]-low sulfur diet-low FODMAP diet-antibiotics-fecal bacterotherapy-garments puported to reduce rectal odorComplete evacuation-retrograde irrigation-biofeedback-bulk forming agent (anti constipative)-antegrade continence operation-surgery for internal intussusceptionIncrease competence of continence mechanism-pelvic floor exercises-hypopressive abdominals-kegels/FI-muscle toners-injectable submucosal bulking agents


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## j123

@ Ileo: Wow, that was an amazing response! I have come across rectal malodor in my research, and I have tried many of he suggestions for a 'cure'. I'm glad to hear that you believe that it is a topic that is not taken serious enough. Your research is quite spot on from what you have posted as there are several different odors that are emits at different time and are always unexplainable. I will definelty look more into it now, thank you!Complete evacuation does seem to help but is obviously not a complete cure. It is frustrating because complete evacuate is now a hard thing for me to achieve. I remember before I started with these symptoms complete evacuation multiple times a day was a regular thing for me. After suffering from a condition like this my outlook will be so much different!I cannot wait to be cured of this 'disease' but until then I will always look into reducing or 'controling' the odor.


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## ileo

j123 said:


> @ Ileo: Wow, that was an amazing response! I have come across rectal malodor in my research, and I have tried many of he suggestions for a 'cure'. I'm glad to hear that you believe that it is a topic that is not taken serious enough. Your research is quite spot on from what you have posted as there are several different odors that are emits at different time and are always unexplainable. I will definelty look more into it now, thank you!Complete evacuation does seem to help but is obviously not a complete cure. It is frustrating because complete evacuate is now a hard thing for me to achieve. I remember before I started with these symptoms complete evacuation multiple times a day was a regular thing for me. After suffering from a condition like this my outlook will be so much different!I cannot wait to be cured of this 'disease' but until then I will always look into reducing or 'controling' the odor.


complete evacuation (>90% rectal emptying with each bowel movement) will reduce odor intermittent odor i think. But continuous odor i believe indicates a problem with the seal. Stool is mostly bacteria and water (90% bacteria by dry weight). The bacteria act on sulfur containing amino acids to produce volatile sulfur compounds (VSC). Other chemicals contribute slightly to the odor of feces and flatus, but greatest contribution is from VSC. The longer stool hangs around in the colon, the longer the bacteria will have to work on these nutrients, and the more time there is for VSC release. I call this "reservoir stagnation". One poster on this forum was cured through complete evacuation alone, but it only improved things a bit for me.I can think of 3 general reasons for incomplete evaci. any lesion mass that blocks the emptying of the rectumii. any reason why the muscles are not coordinating together to evacuate the rectum from the top to the bottom (e.g. in anismus, the rectum contracts first at the bottom, puborectalis, pushing only a small amount out, rest is pushed back up for a short while) This is like squeezing toothpaste tube in middle instead of from the end, some material will be left behind. internal intussusception another example.iii. any non-emptying pouch that is like a cul de sac from the main rectum, rectocele (men can get too, and can be anterior or posterior) / enterocele/ sigmoidoceleTo correct the incomplete evac, depends upon the cause, may need biofeedback, may need surgery to correct a pouch or redundant rectum/sigmoid resection. I used anal irrigation (retrograde continence enema, like a large volume water enema) to completely empty the bowel for one day. Normally I go 2-3 times per day, with this treatment in the morning I go only once. The problem is water residues are left behind, and they start to leak out sometimes several hours after the enema. This water has been in contact with the GI tract and seems to have picked up the odor. Even when I am completely empty of solid stool, a tiny amount of water leakage will give strong odor. This is why I say primary treatment probably needs to be focused on improving the continence mechanism. For about 1 week after solesta treatment, I was very constipated from pain, but NO odor. Normally with that level of incomplete evac would have been terrible odor. Swelling from the procedure gave a temporary air tight seal, and even with constant incomplete evac odor was 100% gone. I got very bloated during these days and needed to occasionally go to bathroom just to fart. Cruelly, odor came back when swelling went down. Now I wait for defecating proctogram, which I suspect may show internal intussusception or mucosal prolapse. Then maybe they correct that surgically and there is a combination procedure called levatorplasty, which can be done at same time to tighten pelvic floor muscles. If not, more bulking agent until seal is adequate I suppose. Not forgetting kegels hypopressive exercises, which are both supposed to strengthen pelvic floor, but I am very lazy to do these regularly. I feel there is no point until surgery to correct the incomplete evac. So, if all these fail, I go for colostomy. Looks like these can be concealed, but some patients have problems with leakage from the bag.


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## hadenuff29

Jason, by all means listen to any advice you want, but im telling you now the smells are cmoing through the blood stream. The bloke who said about the kidneys is smarter than he knows. The blood is overwhelmed from toxins/gases/waste from intestines in the blood stream. It has nothing to do with farts slipping through the backdoor.


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## ileo

hadenuff29 said:


> Jason, by all means listen to any advice you want, but im telling you now the smells are cmoing through the blood stream. The bloke who said about the kidneys is smarter than he knows. The blood is overwhelmed from toxins/gases/waste from intestines in the blood stream. It has nothing to do with farts slipping through the backdoor.


why are you convinced that it is impossible to have odor coming from the anus? I would say that it is by far more common than blood borne body odor conditions. What about patients with fecal incontinence, is there odor to do with blood borne body odor too? Not everyone has the same condition...Re kidneys comment, blood borne presence of odorant volatiles can happen in uremia, but this is a serious condition associated with kidney failure. Blood borne body odor is most commonly caused by an overgrowth of bacteria in the gut, and less commonly caused by a genetic deficiency of liver enzymes. If you are interested in talking with others who have blood borne body odor, but it sounds like you yourself have no diagnosis of TMAU. I warn that the TMAU groups are very exclusionary to any without TMAU diagnosis. Try these links, they are more open to people with other types of blood borne body odorhttp://www.bloodborn...dhalitosis.com/http://breathandbody....proboards.com/http://www.meboresearch.org/


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## ileo

Furthermore, I remind that fecal incontinence has a spectrum of presentation. It does not necessarily equal solid stool incontinence, it merely refers to involuntary (or reduced voluntary control) passing substances per rectum. This can be as mild as reduced ability to control gas, a mucous discharge or liquid leak.I suggest that blood borne body odor is a less common condition that "simple" problems with the continence mechanism. I already mentioned 2 suggested ways to differentiate where the odor is coming from: the air tight shorts and the underwear odor. I think everyone who is not 100% sure that their odor is coming from the anus could try these, to rule out blood borne odor.


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## j123

@Ileo: Man, this may sound corny but I don't care! Your story touches me deeply! I could honestly shed tears for you knowing exaclty what you have and are going through. But I would rather wait for that untlil we are cured. This condition does nothing other than define our lives (like you said). I have only suffered from this for just over a year so I cannot imagine how much more stress that would build up over 6-7 yrs. You are a very strong person! God bless you!I have felt like that too. In the last year I have pushed two girls away, both good friends and they both potential lovers at different times. They wanted to explore something more than just friendship. The reason that I pushed them away was I knew they could do better than me until I fixed my problem. Both absolutley amazing people, even having them as close friends boosted the happiness in my life. My jobs cause me more stress, But one thing is for sure... No matter how hard life gets there is always reasons worth living. Always! Even with this 'curse' life is beautiful. This condition holds us back from our potential, but we will overcome [email protected] hadenuff29:thank you for your comment mate! At this point of time I believe both of you as each open possiblities to potential cures. What would you recommend as a remedy? And also, if you have the time would you mind posting what information you know about the condition?Honestly getting this kind of response from different people is heart-warming to know that if you look in the right places you will find people who are happy to help you


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## hadenuff29

I repeat I have LEAKYGAS


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## ileo

hadenuff29 said:


> I repeat I have LEAKYGAS



Type "blood borne halitosis" into pubmed...http://www.ncbi.nlm....borne halitosis
Only 6 hits (highlights how little research is done on this topic). Excerpt from one result: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15752091
"A small but important percentage of oral malodour cases have an extra-oral aetiology and certain of these fall into the category of 'blood-bornehalitosis'. Odoriferous substances generated within the body and transported to the lungs via the circulatory system may, if sufficiently volatile, leave with the exhaled air and impart a foetid odour to the breath".
Another: "In blood-bornehalitosis, malodourant compounds in the bloodstream are carried to the lungs where they volatilise and enter the breath. Potential sources of blood-bornehalitosis are some systemic diseases, metabolic disorders, medication and certain foods."
These papers discuss blood borne halitosis, but it is also known is that the odor comes from sweat and urine in addition. This is because the blood goes everywhere (apart from brain) and what is carried in it will find its way into multiple excretory pathways. Some other researchers then came up with the term blood borne body odor to cover this.
If you have pathologically (i.e. not normal) odor from your sweat, then either this is a surface phenomenon related to cutaneous bacteria (bromhidrosis) or you have blood borne body odor. You can call it what you want, but the published literature disagrees with you.
Odor coming form the blood that is expressed in sweat, exhaled breath and urine is Blood borne body odor/blood borne halitosis.
Most (in fact I would go as far as to say all) people on this forum define "leaky gas" as odor coming from the anus.
"Kidney cleanses" will not cure blood borne odor from kidney failure (uremic fetor), you might want a kidney transplant instead perhaps.


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## DevilOnMyBack

*WORDS FROM A GUY WHO FOUND WHAT WORKS AND IS CURED: *Hey man, i feel ya, anyways Im pretty much cure as long as my diet is pristine. I dont eat beef or cosume anything with lactose in it. Also I dont eat processed foods and anything that feels wrong. I drink lactose free milk and only eat pork/chicken/fish and other proteins. I am also very in shape and I exercise regularly whether it is strength training or endurance/stamina/speed training. I suggest you try what I'm doing too, I see you started, but try to completely cut out beef and processed foods. Once I found what worked for me I opened up to various foods that I felt contributed and found that some were ok to eat. So try to perfect your diet to the way your body tells you, I consume roughly 1700-2000 calories a day (I know its not much) but it works for me and my body is responding very well. I ONLY and I mean ONLY drink water. I don't touch anything else... I make exceptions for Gin on a party day only because it's very clear and its one of the best if not the best alchohol to consume. It works perfectly fine. I used to have crazy anxiety like yourself, but once this diet worked and I found people let down with everything, I began to become more positive, and say to myself if someone does make a gesture "he probably has a runny nose" or "nose itch" or something like that. Now that my head is more clear of the paranoia my symptoms went right down. Though I am not eating beef or lactose again. I will never risk what has happened in the last 2 years happen again. Message me if ya want to know more or wanna talk.PS. I think the whole "its all in your head" is complete BS. Also your sphincter muscles are working is BS too. Sure it may have a factor, the head thing definitely contributes, but personally from my experience its how you treat your body and how you fuel it. Try to live a perfectly healthy diet tailored to how your body responds. Listen to it.


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## j123

@DevilOnMyBack: Wow... You have blown my mind. Congrats on curing yourself! There is deflationary a correlation between the foods we eat and the level of LG we experience. No processed meats/foods and read meats sounds viable to me and is definitely doable. I do have some questions for you if you do not mind. (I do not know how to pm on the forum yet so I'll just post them here for now) 1. What were the most common symptoms you experienced prior to your 'cure'? 2. Did you find that all lactose products were triggers? 3. I have been experiencing lower back pain and commonly not long before or after lg comes with it. I am also in shape and healthy and do not do any heavy dead lifts or bad form exercises for me to justify my lower back soreness. I have read that some lg sufferers have experienced this, did you ever have it? 4. I have found that some foods like eggs and coffee, do not always instantly trigger lg (by instantly I mean one to a few hours after consumption, but do if consumed somewhat regularly). Did you experience this? Eggs I can give up easy but coffee will be the hardest for me. (I would still love to be able to have it maybe 2-3 times a week) 5. Are their any foods or supplements that you recommend for regular intake? Sorry to bombard you with questions but I have not been this excited in a long time! Thank you so much for giving hope and hopefully bringing me closer to ridding this disease. Congrats again on curing yourself


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## DevilOnMyBack

j123 said:


> @DevilOnMyBack: Wow... You have blown my mind. Congrats on curing yourself! There is deflationary a correlation between the foods we eat and the level of LG we experience. No processed meats/foods and read meats sounds viable to me and is definitely doable. I do have some questions for you if you do not mind. (I do not know how to pm on the forum yet so I'll just post them here for now) 1. What were the most common symptoms you experienced prior to your 'cure'? 2. Did you find that all lactose products were triggers? 3. I have been experiencing lower back pain and commonly not long before or after lg comes with it. I am also in shape and healthy and do not do any heavy dead lifts or bad form exercises for me to justify my lower back soreness. I have read that some lg sufferers have experienced this, did you ever have it? 4. I have found that some foods like eggs and coffee, do not always instantly trigger lg (by instantly I mean one to a few hours after consumption, but do if consumed somewhat regularly). Did you experience this? Eggs I can give up easy but coffee will be the hardest for me. (I would still love to be able to have it maybe 2-3 times a week) 5. Are their any foods or supplements that you recommend for regular intake? Sorry to bombard you with questions but I have not been this excited in a long time! Thank you so much for giving hope and hopefully bringing me closer to ridding this disease. Congrats again on curing yourself


Alright I'm gonna list my answers to your questions and at the end add anything else 1. I get random spikes of pain that were pretty bad (I still do here and there), I also stank (Goes without saying), I had mucus in my poos, I had trouble swallowing certain things and I believe thats it, the main ones atleast. 2.Yeah, I did many tests and lactose/fructose breath tests were included, turns out I was lactose/fructose intolerant NEGATIVE, so I didn't have either, but the test may have been ruined during the lactose test which is a very real possibility. I talked with some people who are lactose intolerant and even my doc and they said that even if the test results are negative, it can still have effects on you. So yes, I find lactose, specifically milk, is a trigger. I do eat butter and cheat a little with cheese here and there, but not too often. 3. to be honest I really don't know, pain is something I am very tolerant of and I play a rough sport (rugby) so pains really go unnoticed with me because I feel them so often. Though if it was serious I would know because I don't let things get out of hand. HOWEVER, now that I recall, when I stand for a while or sit down with not back supporting rest I easily feel discomfort and pain in my back and feel the need to sit down. So if thats the kind of pain you are talking about then yes, I do get lower back pains.4.Ever since my new diet I havent really experimented with eggs, as I've been eating bran cereals mainly, its something that i'll have to look into. I don't drink coffee but I do every so often (especially in the winter) have a cup of hot chocolate, which I had tried in my new diet and it seems to have a light effect on me, so I try to only have some if I know i'm not doing anything for the day or next day. Though I do know that coffee isn't really good for anyone, it gives you energy but a tip from me is that artificial energy is usually never good for the bowels, it stirs up my stomach and gets my gases going and is usually followed by a day of farting and stinking.Try to find energy from natural things (just google). 5.Unless you have diarreah and have somewhat regular poos, i'd say to consume more fibre, everything works a little more efficiently. I also suggest you cut out pops and crappy foods as you said, also try to stay away from certain juices. Its depends on what your body accepts, just tailor your diet to what works and what doesnt which is what I did. Drink a cup of water after meals, and more throughout the day, it'll help. Probiotics are always good, the brand differs where ever you live so just go to your local drug store and ask em. More chicken and fish than pork if you do cut out red meat. Gum is reallly not good to have, it is probably the biggest trigger for gas in me. I could rhyme off so many things you shouldn't eat. Really what I do is have three categories of food in my head based off of past experiences: 1. Fine to eat 2. Sketchy to eat 3. Don't Eat.category 1 is just foods that work for me obviously, category 2 is foods i havent tried and i'm not sure about so I will test them one day OR it will go into a sub category where food that does light effect will go and i'll consume it when then next day nothing is happening. category 3 speaks for itself. As far as anything else I wouldn't call it a cure, just a researched diet that works lol. I have to live with this diet until there is a cure found. And I really don't mind questions, i'd like to help as many people as I can so if you have any more that you may have held back ask away im open for it. I'd also like to hear how things are working for you with the advice i'd given you, whether it's working or not, we're all different after all so even negative feedback is good so it shows it differs from person to person. Anyways, if you have any more q's ask. And keep me updated!


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## DevilOnMyBack

And hey j123, I was reading about your girls you pushed away. I can completely relate, thinking about it makes me sad but I learned that theres no room or reason for sadness anymore, just causes stress... anyways I had the opportunity to be with this amazingly beautiful girl who I found perfect, but I completely pushed her away from me and now shes with someone else. She wanted me, bad, I wanted her bad too. I just couldnt at the stat I was at. Even now I went on a date with a girl, reeled her in and ended up pushing her away. I've done it many times, however this one girl (the first one I talked about) always gets to me. Everyone asks me why I didn't commit, and I just tell them I couldn't without a reason. It hurts to think about it. I try not to, and just enjoy what I have going right now. I swear shes still into me, the way she talks to me in school is just like before, I swear she wants to but she is just trying to remain faithful to her now boyfriend which is completely understandable. Im sure you know what i'm getting at. Im not being cocky but most girls did like me, and still think im good looking but after so many attemps at getting close to me by them I feel like they've deemed me 'out of bounds'. However once I figure this all out I'll be ready. (even though I feel like i've got it handled I dont feel like I have enough data to hold a relationship).


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## Brent

Hey there. Thanks for the advice. Its good to know that there are always people to turn to when we suffer from problems like these. I just wanted to know, After you started your diet change, how long did it take for you to realise the difference?And 1 more question, did you experience constant loud stomach growls when you had the problem?


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## DevilOnMyBack

Brent said:


> Hey there. Thanks for the advice. Its good to know that there are always people to turn to when we suffer from problems like these. I just wanted to know, After you started your diet change, how long did it take for you to realise the diffrence?And 1 more question, did you experience constant loud stomach growls when you had the problem?


hey, let me get this out first, ive been testing and tailoring ny diet for months. this just seemed to be the last few peices of the puzzle. anyways it took about 4 days for me to notice anything after cutting out red meats n lactose. also yeah i did and still do get the growls n such. I also would like to add that i still have other ibs symptoms such as the gas/pains and backpain which is killer right now. sorry for any poor grammar/etc cause im on my phone. when i get home ill add anything i missed


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## ThreeYearsAndCounting

DevilOnMyBack said:


> And hey j123, I was reading about your girls you pushed away. I can completely relate, thinking about it makes me sad but I learned that theres no room or reason for sadness anymore, just causes stress... anyways I had the opportunity to be with this amazingly beautiful girl who I found perfect, but I completely pushed her away from me and now shes with someone else. She wanted me, bad, I wanted her bad too. I just couldnt at the stat I was at. Even now I went on a date with a girl, reeled her in and ended up pushing her away. I've done it many times, however this one girl (the first one I talked about) always gets to me. Everyone asks me why I didn't commit, and I just tell them I couldn't without a reason. It hurts to think about it. I try not to, and just enjoy what I have going right now. I swear shes still into me, the way she talks to me in school is just like before, I swear she wants to but she is just trying to remain faithful to her now boyfriend which is completely understandable. Im sure you know what i'm getting at. Im not being cocky but most girls did like me, and still think im good looking but after so many attemps at getting close to me by them I feel like they've deemed me 'out of bounds'. However once I figure this all out I'll be ready. (even though I feel like i've got it handled I dont feel like I have enough data to hold a relationship).


*sigh*My boss had a wedding reception this past Saturday. In August, he told me his adopted daughter was looking forward to dancing with me so he expected me to. This is the boss I talked about in my intro post here about 2.5 years ago. He and his co-worker (my other boss) treat me amazingly (like a son) and help me out with everything (life advice, programming advice, etc.) so the least I could have done was dance with her (and she's a 8/10 or 9/10 in real life SRS with the only downside being she has a kid) which would have been awesome because she's a heavenly blessed beauty, BUT I said no to her (and some other people who asked to dance at the reception) claiming "I have two left feet...no thanks! I don't get peer pressured, sorry" while laughing, which is a lie. I used to love dancing (signed up for it in 8th grade and quit basketball team lol) but I was afraid of being on the dance floor with ~30 other people (it also helped that about 50% of other people didn't dance) because of my odor.At the same time, my clinical psychologist has raised my self-esteem unbelievably. I don't think about taking a shotgun and blowing my head off in a sewer 50 miles from the city I live in (so people don't find me and I save my cash-strapped family $10-15K in funeral costs). *SIGH* Thankfully, now I'm working out 1-2 a day HIIT cardio plus weight training AND eating healthy for the first time in a long, long time. Kind of think I should try cutting out red meat (the only thing I eat that you don't pretty much...I avoid milk like syphallis except recently when I've been making oatmeal...could try to make it with water?)Sounds awesome that you're cured...


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## j123

@DevilonmyBack & ThreeYearsAndCounting: I feel for you guys. Dammit this condititon is so f**ked up. Lets all just work on what gets us cured for good and then get the girls back into our [email protected]: Thats good to hear that your self-esteem and confidence has been raised. I think we always need to look at the positives in ours lives because as bad as we have, others have it SOOO much [email protected]: Cheers, your a legend mate! What does your general day-to-day diet look like? And If you don't mind talking about the sauces/spices you use for flavouring your foods like chicken etc. Eating bland food is so hard after a few days. I have actually had a few days in a row where I have had very minimal odor. Not enough for anyone to notice (just like a 'normal smelling fart from time to time) and by God my confidence gets so high! I forgot what it was like to be my charismatic and confident self for more than two days! But then yesterday and today the odor is back







Again I don't know what triggered it because I have been eating well. I feel like bread is ok for me but if I have to much it becomes a trigger.Thanks again guys! Your posts are something that I always look forward too


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## DevilOnMyBack

j123 said:


> @DevilonmyBack & ThreeYearsAndCounting: I feel for you guys. Dammit this condititon is so f**ked up. Lets all just work on what gets us cured for good and then get the girls back into our [email protected]: Thats good to hear that your self-esteem and confidence has been raised. I think we always need to look at the positives in ours lives because as bad as we have, others have it SOOO much [email protected]: Cheers, your a legend mate! What does your general day-to-day diet look like? And If you don't mind talking about the sauces/spices you use for flavouring your foods like chicken etc. Eating bland food is so hard after a few days. I have actually had a few days in a row where I have had very minimal odor. Not enough for anyone to notice (just like a 'normal smelling fart from time to time) and by God my confidence gets so high! I forgot what it was like to be my charismatic and confident self for more than two days! But then yesterday and today the odor is back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again I don't know what triggered it because I have been eating well. I feel like bread is ok for me but if I have to much it becomes a trigger.Thanks again guys! Your posts are something that I always look forward too


Hey,
I apologize for the late reply, been busy and this got lost somewhere on my to do list. My day-to-day diet has a wide range but not really. I mean that I do have a limited selection of foods but what I can do with the limited selection gives me a whole range of foods I may eat. However, I'll just tell you the basic 'control' foods I eat that make up my meals. Breakfasts usually are cereal, usually raisin bran or some sort of bran cereal, make the exception for whole wheat or rice crispys here and there. If I were to eat something else other than cereal it'd be pretty normal, eggs, potatoes, perogies sometimes, I havent experimented with pancakes or waffles yet, something I need to do. All of this is ofcource made to fit my diet, so like if I made scrambled eggs I'd put my lactose free milk in it, and if you can apply that logic with the other foods I might eat. For lunch I will have a sandwich (im in school so it's standard) but in it its a meat that is not beef and no cheese. I get creative though in my selection of foods with vegies, etc that I might put in the sandwich. If I dont eat a sandwich and I decide to buy i'll buy fries usually. It depends whats around, I dont eat out much because idk 100% whats in everything. Sometimes Ill bring soup in a thermos which always goes down nicely. At home for lunch i'll have some sort of meal with meat(no beef ofcourse), I stay away from hotdogs because they are usually a mix of meats which include beef. I'll have a chicken sandwich, leftovers from dinner and really thats it, its hard to remember everything I eat I just know im in my boundaries. For dinner I'll usually have some sort of vege, grain and meat combo which works out nicely, ofcourse in my boundaries, I find rice/bread works nice and potatoes or green beans are good- today I have pork cabbage rolls with virgin tomatoe sauce over it, it was amazing and completely in my boundaries. For inbetween meals I eat whatever, Its hard for me to put on weight so I need to eat alot in my diet. Soemtimes I'll whip out some cereal, sometimes I'll eat a sandwich, it depends whats around.

Its hard to put like a daily eating schedule because I eat alot of different foods. Though its good you're getting some optimism for this







I remember before I started this diet/regime I was depressed, down and out and didnt want to do anything. Though I had a couple alright days, which I was amazed at, and I found some confidence, just a little, and in those moments of confidence I could think clearly and optimistically, I realized that I needed to do something about it if I wanted change. I know it sound obvious and stupid but when you're depressed you really cannot think at all. So I started piecing together my diet which I know now today, and i'm still putting pieces together. Yesterday I went to the Sick Kids hospital and had my colonoscopy/endoscopy. I had so much fun there, chillin in my room watching tv and drinking/sh1tting, clearing out my bowels and after the procedure the doctor told me in the beginning of the small intestine from the stomach there was inflamation and mucus, where they have medicine for. In a couple weeks I'll have all the info but it was a great day, I've found what seems to be the beginning of happiness again. If it turns out the same for you, I think over a period of time you will have results like me for your diet. It took months, but right now I do not regret anything. I hope the best for you.

Also, I'd like to hear from you how things have been going since it's been 6 days since your last post. Have you tried anything new? Update me please


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## j123

Hey mate,

No worries I figured that you would have been busy. That is awesome to hear! Do you mind explaining the procedure and how you went about booking or organising it?

I've been the best I have been for a long time this past week. Thank you so much for your advice. Everyday I am discovering trigger foods and filtering them out of my diet completly. I notice that you can eat some foods that I believe are triggers for me the big one being eggs. I miss them, more for the protien content in the morning. And everything lactose is a big no for me. Im going to try soy milk and zymil milk just for coffees. I had 1 coffee last week! Thats absolutley amazing for me lol.

Im sorry this is such a short post I've got to go. Mainly im just weeding foods out of my diet and finding out what works. The improvements have already been so good









I'll keep checking and keep you posted for sure







Thanks for being such a helpful and kind soul!


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## ThreeYearsAndCounting

pengu said:


> someone in this thread needs to take a shower


u are 1 ****ing cheeky **** mate i swear i am goin 2 wreck u i swear on my mums life and i no u are scared lil ###### gettin your mates to send me messages saying dont meet up coz u r sum big bastard with muscles lol ****in sad mate really sad jus shows what a scared lil gay boy u are and whats all this #### ur mates sendin me about sum bodybuildin website that 1 of your faverite places to look at men u lil ****in gay boy fone me if u got da balls cheeky prick see if u can step up lil queer


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## DevilOnMyBack

j123 said:


> Hey mate,
> 
> No worries I figured that you would have been busy. That is awesome to hear! Do you mind explaining the procedure and how you went about booking or organising it?
> 
> I've been the best I have been for a long time this past week. Thank you so much for your advice. Everyday I am discovering trigger foods and filtering them out of my diet completly. I notice that you can eat some foods that I believe are triggers for me the big one being eggs. I miss them, more for the protien content in the morning. And everything lactose is a big no for me. Im going to try soy milk and zymil milk just for coffees. I had 1 coffee last week! Thats absolutley amazing for me lol.
> 
> Im sorry this is such a short post I've got to go. Mainly im just weeding foods out of my diet and finding out what works. The improvements have already been so good
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll keep checking and keep you posted for sure
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for being such a helpful and kind soul!


What do you mean explain the booking/procedure? And dont mind pengu, its him voicing his inner anger for this odor. Atleast what I think. Posts dont have to be long lol, anyways let me know, ill be glad to explain anything. Also soy is probably the best tasting one if you decide to not drink the lactose free milk. Which is pretty much milk with the milk enzyme removed.

Glad to hear things are going well!


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## j123

Hey yeah i've seen him post alot in this section, half the time hes serious and seems like hes wants to help people and half the time he is trolling people with the same condition he has.....

I was talking about the colonoscopy/endoscopy, was it hassle free to book or did you have to see a doctor 1st? Also how much do you think it helped you with your odor and have you found out the treatment for the mucus in the small intestine? That seems really interesting and I wonder if that is a large part of what causes us our odor?

Ugh my odor has just come back now, im at home so thats good I guess but now I have to figure out what triggered it yesterday or today :S It has to be either to much rice, carrot or coffee (I had one today with lactose free skim milk).


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## DevilOnMyBack

I live in Canada and our health care system is really good, so I can't vouch for australia where you're from. However I can say I have a really good family doctor and yes I had to get him to book an appointment for me in the gastroenterology part of the hospital I went to. So it wasnt hassle free at all, I see my doctor regularly so he suggested it and I said yes. The day after my procedure I smelt, only because I went without food for 38 hours and I went to the nearest coffee shop, got soup/bagel n creamcheese and ended up eating alot that night. However the following day I was back to smell free and have been since (still on my diet ofcourse). I have an appointment with the doctor who did the procedure in a couple weeks to discuss the results of the biopies they took. So hopefully ill be getting treated for it after I see it. Im curious if alot of people with the odor have it, I've talked to people who have had the procedure done with LG and they said nothing was found, but my doctor went a little further than it says in the books ( a lil in my small intestine) and they seen something in there rather than my large intestine or stomach.

Keep at it







It'll become instinct soon enough. And for the coffee (I know you adults love it and need it) but I feel abosolutely anything that gives you energy through caffeine and whatever else is in energy drinks/coffee is a HUGE trigger for me. I stay away from that stuff entirely, energy drinks, coffees, preworkouts you name it. I find gingerale is a good source of electrolytes and doesnt trigger smell at all for me, (gives you energy), maybe try it out. Try to keep off the coffee, or if you need it drink it on a day where the following day you're not doing anything.


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## j123

Yeah I have heard that Canada's Health care system is one of the best in the world. Australia's is ok.. But so many doctors just go through the motions and do not treat their job as serious as tihey should.

I've just got back home now after a party and I drank tonight. I had spirits (whiskey and vodka) mixed with coke, so I will see how that affects me tomorrow. I kind of already know it will trigger my lg







It just remains to be seen how bad it triggers it.

I also find that if I do not eat enough it triggers it and if I eat to much (even if it is 'safe' foods) it triggers my lg.

And like you said pre-workouts trigger it (high sugars) and also whey protein triggers lg. I am looking into Hemp powder as a source of pre and post workout protein (it has amazing organic nutritional content and hopefully will not be a trigger (fingers crossed)).

As far as coffee goes, I just love the flavour and the aroma. It is something I have always drank (since 15) and the energy boost is not a reason why I drink it. I know I will have to cut it out but it will be by far the hardest thing for me to stop consuming.

Im going to finish my post of here. Im drunk and feeling good atm. I met a girl tonight and actually went the distance with her. Wow it has been way to long for me but man does it feel good to be 'back in action'... At least for the moment. It actually made me sober up quite alot. Im suprized im typing so well lol.

I'll keep you posted on how I feel tomoz (lg wise).

I just want to say thanks again mate and goodnight!


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## MGS

pengu said:


> any of you tried the vitamin E thing yet?


I was waiting for you to try it


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## DevilOnMyBack

pengu said:


> haha i really hope ur quoting someone man
> 
> im just $$$$$$ing around y'all. as for that cured guy ill add him to the list of cures
> 
> any of you tried the vitamin E thing yet?


The thing where you pour it down your ass right? Lol nahhhhhh sounds whack plus I dont need to do it anymore

Thought you were gonna give it a try


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## j123

So Pengu, you said you have been finding that vitamin E is working for you? What exactly do you do?

As for my progress, I'd say that my smell has been 80% eliminated, which is fkn amazing! When it comes it does not hang around as long and it doesnt come on nearly as much as it used to. While diet might not be a 100% cure it definetly can get you to a very comfortable level after having such dire symptoms. The test for me is to make sure I do not eat trigger foods and monitor what they may be. For example, had fried eggs on sunday morning.... Yep, its a trigger for me. Im not sure if it was just because they were fried but I am not keen to try them atm to see. I will exentually see how I go with boiled eggs. Cheese is still a big no for me







. I m mainly eating chicken breast, brown rice and tuna. My problem is while im contempt with these foods I just need to add more flavour at times because it does get very bland. So many sauces are triggers for me to. Oh well, I am still so much happier than I was with my condition 2 months ago, heck even than last wk!


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## westr

pengu i ate nothing but fish and rice crackers for 2 months, you can do it


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## ThreeYearsAndCounting

pengu,

How's your progress going with the Vitamin E enema? You said your odor had changed to a "stale" one, right? That's good, right?


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## westr

pengu said:


> that cured you?


 eventually yeh, but it was probably the probiotic and not having to sit down all day to be fair, maybe it just reduced the potency. it came back a bit only when i stopped the diet. im just saying if you want to try and cut something out of your diet you shouldnt think its not possible coz you like it so much, im the most gluttonous person i know.


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## westr

defo inflamation is involved. when i did this enema before my colonoscopy i had a litle left over so i did the rest. what came out looked like intestine, turns out it was hardened mucus which comes about when your intestines are inflamed, probably about 30cm of tube came out. shits all over my other theories though.


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## moor_91

westr said:


> defo inflamation is involved. when i did this enema before my colonoscopy i had a litle left over so i did the rest. what came out looked like intestine, turns out it was hardened mucus which comes about when your intestines are inflamed, probably about 30cm of tube came out. shits all over my other theories though.


not the elusive mucoid plaque?


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## moor_91

pengu said:


> stress/anxiety trigger inflammation
> 
> bad foods trigger inflammation
> 
> coffee triggers inflammation


maybe a stupid question, but how does it feel to know there is inflammation there? These are many environmental triggers, are you saying you might have some autoimmune/allergic thing going on? Does your mouth ever swell up with certain foods? If you ever had a scope done, they may have taken biopsies which would have demonstrated inflammation.


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## desprate

Hi moor_91..
i also suffer with the same symptoms like fbo,lg may be fbb and yes my mouth/face swell up after eating certain foods


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## moor_91

desprate said:


> Hi moor_91..
> i also suffer with the same symptoms like fbo,lg may be fbb and yes my mouth/face swell up after eating certain foods


maybe there is allergy or something, I don't really study this stuff, even though my mouth swell up too I feel that my odor symptom originates from IAS weakness, exacerbated by incomplete evacuation from anismus. I know sometimes conditions like Crohn's disease can effect the whole GI tract, mouth included. There are allergy tests available where they scratch the skin with various common allergens, then check for reactions later.

when you say fbo, lg and fbb...this is fecal odor coming from your sweat and breath? If so this could be a blood borne body odor condition. Maybe think about testing for TMAU, since its the only blood borne body odor condition that is tested for widely at the moment. Most TMAU positive patients have fecal odor, not fish. Possibly because blood borne sulfur compounds as well as TMA. FMO3 deal with sulfides too, but no evidence for this theory.


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## moor_91

pengu said:


> I didn't feel anything for the longest time but with this new enema I am acutely aware of all the sensations coming out of my backside (it's like all my nerves started working again) and there is a big link between inflammation and LG. A big big link. This also explains why the smell is at it's worst when I've had coffee or smoked weed (or am really anxious). Inflammation is at a maximum then.
> 
> I think anything that could cure inflammation, at least temporary, could cure this disease. I don't know my drugs though so hopefully one of you guys can suggest something.


I'm not convinced... Are you able to get a report of the cells and tissues from the mucosa... some biopsies. Secondly I personally wouldn't state that inflammation is a cause for all either. 5 signs of inflammation: redness, heat, loss of function, pain and swelling. Swelling could increase the size of the tissue and could improve the air/watertightness of the seal. Exactly like injectable bulking agents bulk out the tissues around the anal canal and increase the resting pressure. Inflammation might give off inflammatory exudate, which could be malodorous.. is the theory?. Or the sensation is somehow reduced by the presence of inflammation? I know that inflammation can cause hyperalgesia, lowering of pain thresholds.

Re caffeine, it decreases the resting tone of the anal canal and stimulates peristalsis. Could be bad for those with minor FI for other reasons that possibly causing inflammation (is it possible to be allergic to caffeine? no idea, but can be allergic to most substances)


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## moor_91

pengu said:


> This is just for the brain but it's all the proof I need. I'm gonna start taking asprin orally and applying some anally as well. Supposedly, it ruins your gut lining but taking L-glutamine and vitamin E should counteract that.


interesting re anti-inflammatory effect of this med, but outsiders would still probably say that previously there was delusional odor, and the antipsychotic has treated this mindset or whatever.

watch out putting aspirin tablet directly onto mucosa, it will give you a bad chemical burn. Don't hold a tablet in your mouth for the same reason.


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## NoFuture

pengu said:


> I went to google to search for Risperidones anti-inflammatory properties and it just filled itself in
> 
> http://www.researchg...vation_in_vitro
> 
> This is just for the brain but it's all the proof I need. I'm gonna start taking asprin orally and applying some anally as well. Supposedly, it ruins your gut lining but taking L-glutamine and vitamin E should counteract that.


I don't know if you're talking seriously, but don't tray aspirin direct on the mucosa. That will damage you for sure. The medical medicin like aspirin but for aplaying direct on the mucosa is mesalazine. I think there are different forms: supositories, rectal foam and tablets. Anyhow the antinflamatory properties of vitamin E are superior to mesalazine. Doctor usually use mesalazine for many inflamatory intestinal / rectal illness


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## NoFuture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesalazine


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## moor_91

any over the counter gel that is marketed for mouth ulcer pain relief will probably be safe for the rectal mucosa. E.g. "bonjella" is a gel salicylate (aspirin ). I use this as a lubricant on the TENS machine, numbs the area a bit, reduces the stabbing pain, but allows for the electrical stimulus to contract the muscles.

I'm still not understanding how you can tell there is inflammation in the first place? do you have soreness when the mucosa is pressed? is there mucous discharge/bleeding? Did you ever get biopsies of the colon taken during a scope? These would show inflammation


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## westr

moor_91 said:


> not the elusive mucoid plaque?


whats mucoid plaque?


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## moor_91

westr said:


> whats mucoid plaque?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mucoid_plaque


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## westr

yeh ive got google too, what does it mean to you, why use the term 'elusive'?


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## moor_91

westr said:


> yeh ive got google too, what does it mean to you, why use the term 'elusive'?


wasn't trying to offend from pasting wikipedia link, that is where I knew the term from. Used word elusive after reading article, it said that mucoid plaque was a con


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## yzz

hey maybe take a look at this new site that revolves around fbo, FBOVER.COM . they have lists of potential cures.


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## oceanblue141

Hi Devilonmyback,

What did your biopsy result say? What kind of treatment are you getting?

I have Leaky Gas, got my upper GI Endoscopy done( Tube through mouth). It showed inflammation near esophagus, stomach junction (Grade A Esophagitis). Anal manometry test showed my sphincter is little weak. Gastroenterologist prescribed me Ganaton OD and Razo for 3 months. He said i have slightly weak anal sphincter and Esophagitis which is causing the problem and will take some time to get back to normal(Apprx 3 months).


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## ThreeYearsAndCounting

Seeing some great, great, great progress drinking Bragg's Apple Cider Vinegar. My acne (started at age 10, I am 22 now) has been improving big time, daily. My hair and (now) beard feel unbelievable, and most importantly, I'm about 99% certain my FBO has decreased by about 70-80% (if not more) in the week I've been taking ACV. The best part is it has been an decremental progress, meaning it's slowly getting better each day. I worked with my brother Wednesay and yesterday (working alone today) and on Wednesday, I smelled a 'strong' odor in my office. Yesterday, it was somewhat there, and today I smell the faintest odor in the world. *Kind of* looking forward to seeing what happens Monday/Tuesday or whenever I go into the office next week. lol


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## ThreeYearsAndCounting

pengu said:


> can you buy it in a store?
> 
> also how much? what's your dosage?


Yes.

It costs about the same as regular (maybe a couple dollars more...) [yes, I know that's not what you were asking...]

It's recommended a person uses 1-2 (or 2-4) tbsps and mixes with 8+ fl. oz of water. I just pour it in and drink it because (IMO) it tastes great. However, make sure to use a STRAW to drink out of to make sure your teeth don't become white. Also, rinse out your mouth right afterwards to protect the enamel.

Other improvements: my nose doesn't get clogged 93.2573847% of the time I'm outside. I ran about a mile yesterday without getting a stuffy nose. Obviously, as mentioned, my acne (and bacne) has improved considerably and my mom says there is no comparison to just two weeks ago (yay)! Seriously improved my mood (though that may just be related to me THINKING it did), my digestion is MUCH better (I'm off laxatives), and my energy levels are off the charts (like those 3 days of work I mentioned - slept ~ 6 hours each day and spent my work day in front of monitor the whole time - very little yawning).


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## ThreeYearsAndCounting

pengu said:


> thats good man. ill try and get my hands on some ASAP
> 
> Ive read about this on another forum but I never thought to give it a try. But if it works for you then hell yea.
> 
> One more question..you ever get any inflamattion or sweating down there?


You'll find it right next to the other brands (Heinz Vinegar). Make 100% certain you're buying ORGANIC Apple Cider Vinegar (ACV) because it's important that the ACV contains "The Mother" (the floating thing at the bottom).

No, I haven't had any inflammation there for 3-4 years when I *may* have had hemmorhoids. Not sure, because I've never much cared for physical pain lol (edit: meaning it it was burning down there, I just assumed it was 'normal' and ignored it till it went away lol). As for sweating, I *used* to have anus sweat coming home from courses at my college a couple years back, but not in the past year, I think. At least, not that I remember. Sorry.

Some really good news: Literally pooped about 15-20 minutes ago with nice, firm bowel movements which is a miracle. Usually I have to repeatedly use the bathroom and strain, but it felt as if I was on laxatives again. Yay!







Sorry for the gross news, just excited. I really, really like the ACV. Even if it doesn't cure the odor (which I think it truly is), the health benefits are amazing. My acne (which I've had for 10+ years pretty much) is drying up.










As I've sat here for the past 2 hours installing Windows 8 for my friend's PC, I haven't noticed any faint odors whatsoever, which I always would when sitting for extended periods. It would be minor (nothing like I would in my office occasionally or in other public places often), but it'd "be there". In fact, I don't think I have for the past week. Which is awesome...









This may or may not fix my main problem (odor - which I hope it is), but it's given me hope again. Something that's been MIA for the past 5 years (January 3rd, 2008 is when my odor started). Why do I remember the date? 1-2-3 (first day of class in the second semester of my junior [3rd] year in high school). *sigh* * If *this does come to be a real solution for some, I fully expect you guys to go out and live life to the absolute fullest and not give a crap about what anyone else thinks.

For those of you interested in the benefits of taking ACV (interally AND externally), here's a good list by natmedtalk.com

http://www.natmedtalk.com/f31/20167-apple-cider-vinegar.html


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## ThreeYearsAndCounting

pengu said:


> im fucking happy for you man. even your poops have taken on a new life. what more could a man ask.
> 
> hope i have some good news to report at the end of the week. keep us updated


I just got back from walking my pups. Sat down to surf the web when I noticed a scent...it's my deoderant from last night?

My reaction?










Seriously, don't remember last time I was able to smell my deoderant 12+ hours after putting it on.


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## ThreeYearsAndCounting

Also, a couple other things you should be implementing:

1. Squat while pooping; find something ~12 inches on height on which to plop your feet on.






2. Taking multivitamins to help restore your proper digestive system. I take all vitamins (A-E) with special emphasis on Vitamin B's.

http://yousmellstank.blogspot.com/2011/04/vitaminsminerals-for-body-odor.html

I'm feeling really good and excited to seeing what tomorrow has in store. Even a reduction would be nice; but, I have a feeling this will go all the way for me.


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## ThreeYearsAndCounting

pengu said:


> this is great. I keep waiting for the post where it turns out to be a horrible fluke and you're back to square one but i don't think its coming
> 
> this could be it for you man


No, I'm thinking this is working man. My two bowel movements today (at work still) were both solid and very stinky (bacteria leaving body?). Unfortunately, it was my brother and I alone at work today AGAIN. Next time I see my co-workers is on Thursday (darn), but...I did have a very good experience going up the elevator after being locked out of the building (second time in 5 days, lol). My brother came down to open the door and let me in. We saw the mailman needed to drop something off for the floor above us, so he came with us on the elevator. Quiet elevator, little sniffing (no proof it was because of me), and I felt great. Sitting in our office, I smelled the *faintest* odor after using the bathroom, but it went away a couple minutes later. Also, when I was locked out and needed to reach my brother, I went to the building next door to ask to borrow their phone and no sniffing by the cashier OR the patrons waiting behind me, lol. The solid bowel movements and drying of my acne to the point where it's a night and day difference, leads me to believe it truly is our digestive system that is in control of our entire bodies (including acne). I *know* my digestive system is healing iteself because in bed last night (went to sleep early) I could smell my body wash under the covers, my deoderant is still there now 6 hours since I've applied it, and as mentioned, my bowel movements are getting *normal*. I'm freaking stoked. I expect to update again tonight after I visit an ice cream shop with a friend, as I've got to get back to working on my list of assignments for work, lol.

Expect update tonight or tomorrow for certain.


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## ThreeYearsAndCounting

pengu said:


> might not be the best idea. if ur stomach is healing sugar and lactose might really disrupt the process


Did even worse than that; had Taco Bell and a Freeze (equivalent to a DQ Blizzard). No worries, not smelling anything and just had ANOTHER solid (albeit thinly shaped) bowel movements. The fact that they are solid tells me SOMETHING is improving, because before this regiment of ACV, it was a great day to have a single solid bowel movement (which didn't happen often  ) and I'd often have to "go" repeatedly only to realize I could only release gas. Plus, the feeling of having to strain just to get tiny chunks out, it sucked man. Sorry to go all personal, but my mood is brightened just because my BM is so much better. I'm not working again till Thursday (had to call of Wed. due to clinical psych. meeting) but I'm definitely looking forward to it.


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## Common Response

ThreeYearsAndCounting said:


> Did even worse than that; had Taco Bell and a Freeze (equivalent to a DQ Blizzard). No worries, not smelling anything and just had ANOTHER solid (albeit thinly shaped) bowel movements. The fact that they are solid tells me SOMETHING is improving, because before this regiment of ACV, it was a great day to have a single solid bowel movement (which didn't happen often
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) and I'd often have to "go" repeatedly only to realize I could only release gas. Plus, the feeling of having to strain just to get tiny chunks out, it sucked man. Sorry to go all personal, but my mood is brightened just because my BM is so much better. I'm not working again till Thursday (had to call of Wed. due to clinical psych. meeting) but I'm definitely looking forward to it.


Dude, it's good that things seem to be turning around, but I wouldn't tax my system with a junk diet.

If you take care of your digestive system, it's capable of giving you a good life.


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## ThreeYearsAndCounting

pengu said:


> wow. good for you. how old are you again? you should put this to the test and go to a club or party or something


I'm 22. I went out to my brother's County Market to pick out flowers for my mother/grandma last night and didn't notice any odor following me around. However, like I said, while I can't smell it sitting at my desk or laying in my bed (or anywhere else in my home), I still notice tiny, tiny, tiny odors in my work office. Hell, classes start in 2 weeks, so I'll have to test it out at that point. However, I'm already making plans to go skydiving with friends and do other things I've neglected to do over the past (in about 24 hours) exactly 5 years. Yes, 5 year anniversary coming on up... 



Common Response said:


> Dude, it's good that things seem to be turning around, but I wouldn't tax my system with a junk diet.
> 
> If you take care of your digestive system, it's capable of giving you a good life.


Thanks for the advice. However, I refuse to "take care of my digestive system" in a way that restricts the foods I can eat, drinks I can have, etc. especially because I had beer once in my life (at age 14 - 3.5 years before my odors started), never did drugs, had ONE PUFF of a cigarette at age 6, and never put any other harmful (not counting junk foods - which I didn't have until age 18ish) things in my body because those who have abused some/all of those things don't have to. I refuse to believe we will have to suffer enormous stress and have our lives dictated by our meal plans. Nope, the minute I'm cured - and if I am, I still plan to continue using ACV for a long, long time - I'm eating the biggest freaking 10' cake by myself and recording it for all of you.


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## Common Response

ThreeYearsAndCounting said:


> I'm 22. I went out to my brother's County Market to pick out flowers for my mother/grandma last night and didn't notice any odor following me around. However, like I said, while I can't smell it sitting at my desk or laying in my bed (or anywhere else in my home), I still notice tiny, tiny, tiny odors in my work office. Hell, classes start in 2 weeks, so I'll have to test it out at that point. However, I'm already making plans to go skydiving with friends and do other things I've neglected to do over the past (in about 24 hours) exactly 5 years. Yes, 5 year anniversary coming on up...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the advice. However, I refuse to "take care of my digestive system" in a way that restricts the foods I can eat, drinks I can have, etc. especially because I had beer once in my life (at age 14 - 3.5 years before my odors started), never did drugs, had ONE PUFF of a cigarette at age 6, and never put any other harmful (not counting junk foods - which I didn't have until age 18ish) things in my body because those who have abused some/all of those things don't have to. I refuse to believe we will have to suffer enormous stress and have our lives dictated by our meal plans. Nope, the minute I'm cured - and if I am, I still plan to continue using ACV for a long, long time - I'm eating the biggest freaking 10' cake by myself and recording it for all of you.


Well, enjoy it TY&C.

Desire for taste sensations is a pretty powerful force.

It can be extremely difficult to keep in moderation.

Over the years I learned that it's very easy to become a slave to ones culinary desires.

It usually takes place over a long period, but diet has a huge impact on our lives on so many levels.

If you've chosen to succumb, then you may as well enjoy every moment while things are good.


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## Common Response

pengu said:


> u still cured?


P.

Are you going to try the apple cider vinigar cure?

Let me know if it works for you.

I never did like the taste of vinigar and have always avoided it on salads and food, but if you also become cured then I can find a way to change my view.


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## Kreon

Hey all

I've been drinking organic apple cider for a couple of days now and praise to gods it might actually be working.

It seems like leaky gas is gone, but I cant be completely sure. I've been taking loads of good probiotics as well but I noticed a real difference only after acv.

I'll post more when I know more.


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## ThreeYearsAndCounting

Not "cured", but there's been a huge reduction. I still notice people holding their noses and what not, but at a reduced rate (which has me believeing it's a lesser smell now). However, realize my diet has been SHIT for the last couple days. The worst came on Thursday night (celebrating friend's birthday) where I had a Five Guys burger and Steak n' Shake milkshake. I've even smelled it in my home since, but last night I had 3 ACV drinks and today already had 2, so it's not there anymore. I need to take advantage of this last week before school to eat very healthy meals (mom's making broccoli today!) to see if it's just crap food hurting my gut.


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## ThreeYearsAndCounting

Kreon said:


> Hey all
> 
> I've been drinking organic apple cider for a couple of days now and praise to gods it might actually be working.
> 
> It seems like leaky gas is gone, but I cant be completely sure. I've been taking loads of good probiotics as well but I noticed a real difference only after acv.
> 
> I'll post more when I know more.


How are your bowel movements? Have they improved considerably? Mine have...no more constipation/straining! Even on workdays, when I don't drink ACV until I get home -- and yes, I use the bathroom at work before that -- so it's repairing the digestive system, no?


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## ThreeYearsAndCounting

My hair -- which was receding -- is CLEARLY coming back. Wow. It's been 7-8 years since it started receding (I think) and now, even with a buzzed look, I see "stubble" in places where there didn't use to be any. Sah-weet!


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## lisahermes

ThreeYearsAndCounting said:


> My hair -- which was receding -- is CLEARLY coming back. Wow. It's been 7-8 years since it started receding (I think) and now, even with a buzzed look, I see "stubble" in places where there didn't use to be any. Sah-weet!


Is this apple cider vinegar still working for you threeyearsandcounting?


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## ThreeYearsAndCounting

lisahermes said:


> Is this apple cider vinegar still working for you threeyearsandcounting?


I'm getting much better using it. It's been ~2 months since I last visited IBSgroup and since then, I've been intensely working out (every single day = cardio, plus 3

-4x a week lifting), cut out all dairy + gluten, and started up Florastor recently. The ACV is primarily my weight controller now, but it's good to know that it provides enzymes that allow me to have full, complete BMs every single time now!

I'm pretty sure I have a severe case of Candida.

Started up Florastor last Monday night and my odor was horrific during class Wednesday+Friday to the point that it reached many more people than before (lol). However, that may be a die-off symptom and my tongue (which was heavily coated in white) is getting so much better. Yesterday, I developed an "ear infection" (stuffed right ear) and I was just researching about it and it appears to be a symptom of massive Candida die-off toxins being released. I didn't plan to come back here till I'm 100% cured, but I figure you deserve a heads up. It also makes me feel much better knowing that the smell got worse with Florastor since that must mean it's a die-off.

My Advice: Cut out ALL dairy/gluten except eggs (watch your mood improve BIG TIME - as will your BM), exercise daily (and work up a sweat - take photos to watch how awesome your physical transformation will be), take a strong probiotic (in my case Florastor), eat healthy (no, eating a hamburger without the buns isn't healthy lol), and keep doing it till shit gets better.

I won't check back here for a couple weeks - I truly think I'm really, REALLY close now - but I wish all of you the best! I *will* let you know when I am 'cured' of the odor (but I think the habits I picked up from trying to cure myself will stay with me forever - such as no gluten/dairy due to mood improvement).

For guys: make sure to eat a high-fat, high-protein diet and not a low-fat diet as high-fat -> higher testosterone production -> more confidence and that'll help a bit with anxiety. Quit wanking it, too (read yourbrainonporn for more info).

Anyways, I'm out. See you in a couple weeks/months.

1Love, brothers and sisters.


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## ThreeYearsAndCounting

pengu said:


> I think you have a point with the stuffy ear thing. I started getting it when i did GSE the second time. Maybe i should have continued if it was a sign it was working. Its been bothering me for months now and i actually thought i had something wrong with my jaw. it went away and then came back when i started with the vinegar.
> 
> I am also convinced its a fungal infection. When I talk care of myself so all fecal, gas, and other smells age gone, all thats left is a weird moldy fungal smell.
> 
> good luck to you too. Im sick of this.


Yeah, I've been looking around. It could be a yeast infection, but I've also run across posts claiming this is a parasite infection *yuck*. Either way, as annoying as it is (I can *barely* hear out of the right ear - a whole lot of static atm lol) I plan to keep going! Sweating daily (although I did take 2 days off this past week), eating no gluten+dairy, and making sure to wash my mouth has seen a massive reduction in 'thrush' (the white crap on my tongue, lol). Still odor, but my mood is better, and I just have to keep believing this is the solution. Without hope, who are we but the walking dead? *shrugs*


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## ThreeYearsAndCounting

pengu said:


> why dont you think it could be a physical problem requiring surgery, as seen in the other thread?


Because physical problems would appear on a X-ray or MRI or whatever the fuck it is they use to test it, no? Plus, my odor symptoms didn't appear until I put on a 2-week old, sweaty P.E. shirt (after winter break - during which time it stayed in my locker) because I was afriad of getting a 0 for ONE FREAKING DAY. I wish I could have that day back. I'd have dumped the fucking shirt in the trash can and taken a missed attendance day. I still remember, the shirt LITERALLY smelled like CRAP. Not exaggerating, I even laughed about it with a friend...*sigh* Then again, that may have been a coincidence *shrug* and maybe we have a yeast infection or something.

I know I can't eat dairy or gluten without having constipation. I also know that my mood gets horrible when I eat those foods, I pack on weight, and feel sluggish and "fuzzy" and have trouble thinking...don't think those would be caused by physical misalighments or prolapse (IMO).

Plus, my mother is amazed by my progress on my back acne (aka backnee lol get it?). It's been with me for 12+ years now (which is ridiculous. my brother had acne for a one year period at age 17 or 18 and that was it). SOME SORT OF INFECTION FOR ME (IMO) because I'm always stressed out (and inviting to bacteria/yeast/parasites) while he just lets everything just slide right off of him (no stress EVER).


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## j123

Hey guys,

After months i'm back! I've been working on a clean as F*** diet that gives me zero LG. And I mean i've gone gone over 2 months without any LG!

The things I believe trigger my gas are certain food preservitives (yes that f***s us right up as f***in' nearly everything has them), processed foods, refined sugar (and actually any sugar that is not from fresh fruit), caffiene, some foods heavy in protein and alcohol.

A pretty hefty list if you think about ALL the foods that come under those branches.

So what have I been eating you ask?

This is my standard daily diet:

Breakfast: Organice NO SUGAR Greek yogurt with mixed berries (frozen is fine) and organic rolled oats.

Lunch: Anything really light. Sushi is fine for me (stay away from deep fried anything)

Snacks: Organic corn chips (you can get good tasting ones) and no dairy, organice dips either hommus or avocardo (check the ingridients my secret is the less thats in it, the better it is!(Main thing is to check for food preservities!).

Dinner: Burgen easy to digest rye bread toast with organic peanut butter (100% peanuts nothing else, DONT YOU BUY THE CHEAP SHIT!) and the most natural jam you can find (lowest sugar content ( you want 40% or less, have the jam look 'real' and check those damn preservitives!)).

Following this strict diet (alot of the time without having lunch, just the other meals stated) and drinking plenty of pure water (not spring! bottled water 90% of the time will not be water from a fresh spring EVEN IF IT SAYS SO!) I have experienced ZERO LG and stool Inconsitancy symptoms.

YAY!

Heres the hard part.... It's really hard to follow. I lost 12 kgs (26lbs) in 6 wks following this (only put 2 kgs (4.4 lbs)back on since then.

Follow those guidelines, take your multivitamins (again go for the most organic you can), MAGNESIUM works wonders for me too and absolutley no Spirits or sugary alchohol/drinks/foods!. I am ok with beer as long as its really premium beer and thats it alchohol wise. Other than that I drink water and that is it.

Note. I have experienced Lg this week and Im trying to get down to what caused it since I cannot remember deviating from my diet.

Give it a try guys! You will have to spead the money on good CLEAN food, but it should help you if you give it 2-4 wks!


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## j123

Sorry for all the spelling errors lol.

Organic not organice haha


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## blue42

This is a very debilitating condition and I have been suffering with it for 2 years now. I have similar symptoms, like people saying I smell bad or someone farted and the worst thing is I cant smell it. So as a result of this condition I have now been diagnosed with anxiety, depression and pfd (pelvic floor dysfunction) which I notice after much research on this problem no one has ever mentioned it as a cause for LG.


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## Moyes

there have been some comments on possible pelvic floor issues and some exercises to improve this (begins with K, Kegel think but these were designed for women).

Anyway, happy for Devil, j123 and Three years. Im gonna get back on the wagon soon and start another similar thread. As always it woud be good to know what al your symptoms are/were (J123 you've already done this) and all the cures you've tried and are currently trying. It would be particularly useful whether you took/tried any of these in isolations and the experiences before adding other ones, i.e was there a reduction on just probiotics, just diet, increase reduction with both, no change etc. Im thinking scaling/rating your symptoms individually from 1-10 and noting the rating before you started and after say a month with comment if there were extreme flucuations in between people may need to be wary of would be a start.

Like I said i will eventually start another thread once i find the one and the research I did last year to start it all off again.

Hi Pengu, kinda good to see your still active though wish it was in better circumstances and all that.


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## thickthighs1

I thik ileo and hadenuff are BOTH right..I recently saw on youtube a guy say that LG/leaky gut comes from poisons and food in our blood stream that's not supposed to be there because they slip through the pores in the small intestine... guy names yuri elkaim has a lot of videos on the net..I just looked at the ones dealing with LG and constipation..what he says makes sense to me
I wish I could tell you the stink will go away magically but it will take months to get rid of it
It took me 1 1/2 years to get rid of my stink,then I started eating high fructose corn syrup and it came back..not as bad thank God
You have to STOP eating highly processed foods-if you haven't already- and try to eat a lot of antifungals-garlic,horseradish,oil of oregano ect...Im not going to lie,this will tqke moths to get rid of but its possible


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