# Interesting experience with homeopathic remedy



## crankypants (Aug 25, 2002)

On Monday, the fourth day after I suddenly fell ill with some sort of gastroenteritis, I seemed not to be doing as well as I had expected based on improvements late Sunday evening. I'd still had no BMs since the end of the diarrhea episode early Friday, and was bloated, bound-up and a little crampy. Driving my car felt very strange and I wasn't able to finish my breakfast of a small amount of cottage cheese. At lunchtime, hungry but still woozy, I went to a nearby Whole Foods market and wandered around for half an hour unable to settle on anything I thought I could eat. I finally decided on some roasted pears from the salad bar. They had a bit of oil, but no sugar added.In perusing my homeopathy books on Sunday I had come across Bryonia for this type of illness, and it seemed to match almost perfectly what had happened to me over the weekend. I picked some up at Whole Foods and took the pellets on the way out. I had a slight fog-lifting sensation almost immediately. About five minutes later I passed the largest amount of gas I'd been able to expel since getting sick, and my bowel function continued to normalize from that point. By the time I got back to my desk 15 minutes later I was ready to tackle those pears. I ate them with relish and none of the queasy, maybe-this-wants-to-come-back-up feeling. In the late afternoon I was able to enjoy the barley and bean salad I had picked up in the morning on the chance that I would eventually feel well enough to eat it.I might have been "due" for the improvement anyhow, but at the very least I think the Bryonia goosed it. The change was a pretty sharp turn within less than an hour of the remedy.I have yet to attempt using homeopathics for my chronic issues, and indeed I feel unqualified to do so. This however was what some would call "homeopathic first aid" and I do practice that. If you do too, and you should happen to get a flu-like gut bug this season, check Bryonia and see if it makes sense for you. The Arsenicum I took the first day did help some, I think, because the fever broke soon after, but Bryonia might have been an even better first resort for me.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

cranky,i want to discuss homeopathy with people who have tried it. in 1 hour i will have my 2nd visit with my new homeopath. i can't talk about what has happened the past month on my new remedy because the remedy is a 1LM a much gentler remedy, it definitely worked but the whole issue is complicated.the GI problems may have eased up a bit concerning 1 very specific symptom but i can not confirm it so i will not mention it.homeopathy and even acupuncture are 2 of my most promising healing methods that may reverse a lifetime of illness. i know they work but i do not know the limits of each.gotta run.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

cranky,i want to discuss homeopathy with people who have tried it. in 1 hour i will have my 2nd visit with my new homeopath. i can't talk about what has happened the past month on my new remedy because the remedy is a 1LM a much gentler remedy, it definitely worked but the whole issue is complicated.the GI problems may have eased up a bit concerning 1 very specific symptom but i can not confirm it so i will not mention it.homeopathy and even acupuncture are 2 of my most promising healing methods that may reverse a lifetime of illness. i know they work but i do not know the limits of each.gotta run.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

from nux vomica to lycopodium and now a sulfur remedy. slowly the symptoms are being chipped away.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

from nux vomica to lycopodium and now a sulfur remedy. slowly the symptoms are being chipped away.


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## crankypants (Aug 25, 2002)

So Kel, how have you been taking the remedies? Just one dose of each? If you took more than one dose, did you have to change potencies? How much time did your practitioners allow for each remedy to exert its full effect? Also, I'm curious why you changed homeopaths? (Sorry if I missed that in an earlier post.)


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## crankypants (Aug 25, 2002)

So Kel, how have you been taking the remedies? Just one dose of each? If you took more than one dose, did you have to change potencies? How much time did your practitioners allow for each remedy to exert its full effect? Also, I'm curious why you changed homeopaths? (Sorry if I missed that in an earlier post.)


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

lek,you works on many front.I heard from a Frenchhomeopath that nux vomica is the cure for ibs.She was links at a great French web site.I was surprise to heard a claim like that but never go on it because i think it was homeopathyand do not believe it.I mean,why nobody talk about nux vomica?Anyway,is there any nux vomica in their bottle?Anything who can help me is appreciated.


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

lek,you works on many front.I heard from a Frenchhomeopath that nux vomica is the cure for ibs.She was links at a great French web site.I was surprise to heard a claim like that but never go on it because i think it was homeopathyand do not believe it.I mean,why nobody talk about nux vomica?Anyway,is there any nux vomica in their bottle?Anything who can help me is appreciated.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Frank,Most people do not think that homeopathy works. Homeopathy does not conform to the strict demands of the dbpc study due to its rather individualistic nature. Because it does not conform to the dbpc studies it is usually dismissed by the science people. However, when a person goes “mining” for studies they can come up with dozens of positive studies to support whatever position they are trying to support.Practical/clinical experience reveals the truth that it does indeed work. The results can be dramatic; they can also be painfully slow. Homeopathy will not correct many problems especially when tissue damage is present such as emphysema.Nux vomica will not cure IBS in the sense that the remedies only work for those people that it matches up with. I.E., one sinus sufferer will respond to a remedy totally unique to other sufferers. It all depends on the symptom picture. There are some exceptions to this though – I believe cranky has mentioned arnica as a good remedy for joint muscle pain???Cranky,The 1M doses were given in single doses spaced 2 months apart. This wiped out my chronic irritability and a toxic/sick feeling that I had every day for about 7 years. Then I switched to a much more experienced homeopath (the 1st one wanted to do acupuncture on me instead) and he put me on a daily 1 LM dose of lycopodium. I only took this for a month straight, but it quit working after 3 weeks. The short term effects were obvious but I am uncertain at this point if the effects are going to be lasting. Things turned into a blur and I could no longer unscramble the symptom picture.Yesterday after a 45 minute consult he decided to give me a medium potency remedy of sulfur. Sulfur is considered a good polycrest and therefore it is likely to have an impact on many people. His plan is to study my case and see if he can get a better match for me. Homeopathy has caused my body to react in some very strange ways. My response to him yesterday was that it “almost seems to be getting my body to kill off bacteria”. I stated this due to several phenomena that happens within a week of the remedy such as intense foul odors, diarrhea and gas that is foul in odor… Odor has not been a problem for me in over 18 months yet the intensity of it makes me strongly believe that my body is throwing something off. The list of odd phenomena is extremely long and all I know is that I was a SERIOUS doubter that homeopathy could do as claimed but now I know otherwise.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Frank,Most people do not think that homeopathy works. Homeopathy does not conform to the strict demands of the dbpc study due to its rather individualistic nature. Because it does not conform to the dbpc studies it is usually dismissed by the science people. However, when a person goes “mining” for studies they can come up with dozens of positive studies to support whatever position they are trying to support.Practical/clinical experience reveals the truth that it does indeed work. The results can be dramatic; they can also be painfully slow. Homeopathy will not correct many problems especially when tissue damage is present such as emphysema.Nux vomica will not cure IBS in the sense that the remedies only work for those people that it matches up with. I.E., one sinus sufferer will respond to a remedy totally unique to other sufferers. It all depends on the symptom picture. There are some exceptions to this though – I believe cranky has mentioned arnica as a good remedy for joint muscle pain???Cranky,The 1M doses were given in single doses spaced 2 months apart. This wiped out my chronic irritability and a toxic/sick feeling that I had every day for about 7 years. Then I switched to a much more experienced homeopath (the 1st one wanted to do acupuncture on me instead) and he put me on a daily 1 LM dose of lycopodium. I only took this for a month straight, but it quit working after 3 weeks. The short term effects were obvious but I am uncertain at this point if the effects are going to be lasting. Things turned into a blur and I could no longer unscramble the symptom picture.Yesterday after a 45 minute consult he decided to give me a medium potency remedy of sulfur. Sulfur is considered a good polycrest and therefore it is likely to have an impact on many people. His plan is to study my case and see if he can get a better match for me. Homeopathy has caused my body to react in some very strange ways. My response to him yesterday was that it “almost seems to be getting my body to kill off bacteria”. I stated this due to several phenomena that happens within a week of the remedy such as intense foul odors, diarrhea and gas that is foul in odor… Odor has not been a problem for me in over 18 months yet the intensity of it makes me strongly believe that my body is throwing something off. The list of odd phenomena is extremely long and all I know is that I was a SERIOUS doubter that homeopathy could do as claimed but now I know otherwise.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quoteractical/clinical experience reveals the truth that it does indeed work


Practical/clinical experience reveals the truth that it is indeed useless.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quoteractical/clinical experience reveals the truth that it does indeed work


Practical/clinical experience reveals the truth that it is indeed useless.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Practical/clinical experience even in regular medicine (much less alternative practices) has been so often shown to be 100% WRONG about what the doctors experiences in the clinic told them was going on...Why should homeopathic medicine be the exception to that rule????For example, from recent news.Sham Knee Surgeries (put the patient under cut a couple of holes and stitch them up) was JUST as effective as a surgery that based on practical/clinical experience was shown to be the best way to treat certain knee problems. Apparently just thinking the doctor did something to fix the knee was just as effective.HRT lowers the risk of heart disease, etc.When the finally did studies designed to really tell what was going on all the clinical/practical experience was whon to be about was that wealthy women get HRT and get better over all health care so tend to die less from heart disease...But of course when it comes to homeopathic or other alternative practioners their experience must in all ways always reveal the ultimate truth that science cannot







or something like that?????K.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Practical/clinical experience even in regular medicine (much less alternative practices) has been so often shown to be 100% WRONG about what the doctors experiences in the clinic told them was going on...Why should homeopathic medicine be the exception to that rule????For example, from recent news.Sham Knee Surgeries (put the patient under cut a couple of holes and stitch them up) was JUST as effective as a surgery that based on practical/clinical experience was shown to be the best way to treat certain knee problems. Apparently just thinking the doctor did something to fix the knee was just as effective.HRT lowers the risk of heart disease, etc.When the finally did studies designed to really tell what was going on all the clinical/practical experience was whon to be about was that wealthy women get HRT and get better over all health care so tend to die less from heart disease...But of course when it comes to homeopathic or other alternative practioners their experience must in all ways always reveal the ultimate truth that science cannot







or something like that?????K.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

we put our points of view to "the test" all the time. i've tried to describe it, is that some want us to put our points of view, not "to the test," but "to your test." personally, i have no objection if others are interested in doing this. personally, i can agree that the dbpc has the potential to offer some illumination; personally, however, i can't agree that it is the gold standard of opinion, objectivity, or science. it is only a piece, a single tool in the toolbox of science. clinicians practice daily the fine art of scientific observation, on a small scale, in their consulting rooms; now and then, one of their kind makes a grand leap into what is virtually another intellectual dimension, and our literature is enriched by his name: darwin, freud, piaget, hahnemann. men who observed, catalogued, organized, systematized. this is what many do day-by-day in their offices. as a "thought experiment," try applying the dbpc to Die Traumbeutung, or The Origin of Species.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

we put our points of view to "the test" all the time. i've tried to describe it, is that some want us to put our points of view, not "to the test," but "to your test." personally, i have no objection if others are interested in doing this. personally, i can agree that the dbpc has the potential to offer some illumination; personally, however, i can't agree that it is the gold standard of opinion, objectivity, or science. it is only a piece, a single tool in the toolbox of science. clinicians practice daily the fine art of scientific observation, on a small scale, in their consulting rooms; now and then, one of their kind makes a grand leap into what is virtually another intellectual dimension, and our literature is enriched by his name: darwin, freud, piaget, hahnemann. men who observed, catalogued, organized, systematized. this is what many do day-by-day in their offices. as a "thought experiment," try applying the dbpc to Die Traumbeutung, or The Origin of Species.


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## crankypants (Aug 25, 2002)

Kel,Thank you for elaborating on your treatment experience. I'm sorry it's so difficult to discuss these things in a static-free environment.Re: arnica, it seems to be extraordinarily effective for acute soft-tissue injury (bruises, sports injuries, that sort of thing). Whether it's any good for long-standing joint and muscle pain depends more on the individual, I think.


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## crankypants (Aug 25, 2002)

Kel,Thank you for elaborating on your treatment experience. I'm sorry it's so difficult to discuss these things in a static-free environment.Re: arnica, it seems to be extraordinarily effective for acute soft-tissue injury (bruises, sports injuries, that sort of thing). Whether it's any good for long-standing joint and muscle pain depends more on the individual, I think.


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## crankypants (Aug 25, 2002)

I see we have exactly what I was afraid I was going to find on this thread today.The people here who are interested in getting well, and helping others get well, should continue to speak their minds. Those who are merely interested in hammering a political agenda or just plain trolling and taunting need to zip it. If they don't, I, for one, will stop visiting this board. It's not worth the aggravation.I'd like to remind all those who need reminding, and clearly at least one person does, that the title of this forum is "The IBS SELF-HELP AND SUPPORT Group Bulletin Board..." I'd like to advise all those who need advising to stop wasting energy trying to goad people. Others more generous of spirit may respond as if there were a good-faith debate going on here. I will choose not to.I must say I'd also like to know what our moderator would do if everyone in this forum used his or her signature as the vehicle for a campaign to totally discredit another user...


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## crankypants (Aug 25, 2002)

I see we have exactly what I was afraid I was going to find on this thread today.The people here who are interested in getting well, and helping others get well, should continue to speak their minds. Those who are merely interested in hammering a political agenda or just plain trolling and taunting need to zip it. If they don't, I, for one, will stop visiting this board. It's not worth the aggravation.I'd like to remind all those who need reminding, and clearly at least one person does, that the title of this forum is "The IBS SELF-HELP AND SUPPORT Group Bulletin Board..." I'd like to advise all those who need advising to stop wasting energy trying to goad people. Others more generous of spirit may respond as if there were a good-faith debate going on here. I will choose not to.I must say I'd also like to know what our moderator would do if everyone in this forum used his or her signature as the vehicle for a campaign to totally discredit another user...


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

cranky,it is not your fault but i will be happy to discuss homeoapthy with anyone who wants to despite the local germ running around -- not you k. (btw -- the HRT is not an open and shut case. the worst possible H-drug was used. --and from what i read, the big study was stopped dead in its tracks after a slight possibility arose concerning some risk..... but i don't know enough to talk about it... so i won't)**********************************************************************i can't really blame the homeopathy skeptics. i was extremely skeptical also. the difference with me was that i kept forcing the issue. i kept experimenting with remedies and questioning people on it. a true skeptic/scientist will keep an open mind.it seems that all of my initial attempts at proving remedies or looking for symptom resolution were complete failures. however, when i started doing the provings in the correct manner -- the evidence started to slowly accumulateBONNIEI,does anyone in your family have any interesting homeoapthic experiences?


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

cranky,it is not your fault but i will be happy to discuss homeoapthy with anyone who wants to despite the local germ running around -- not you k. (btw -- the HRT is not an open and shut case. the worst possible H-drug was used. --and from what i read, the big study was stopped dead in its tracks after a slight possibility arose concerning some risk..... but i don't know enough to talk about it... so i won't)**********************************************************************i can't really blame the homeopathy skeptics. i was extremely skeptical also. the difference with me was that i kept forcing the issue. i kept experimenting with remedies and questioning people on it. a true skeptic/scientist will keep an open mind.it seems that all of my initial attempts at proving remedies or looking for symptom resolution were complete failures. however, when i started doing the provings in the correct manner -- the evidence started to slowly accumulateBONNIEI,does anyone in your family have any interesting homeoapthic experiences?


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

So every post should be X works great for everyone!!!!!!!No mention should ever be made that X may or may not be a good treatment for any reason what-so-ever because that "is not supportive".Assuming I am being painted with that "you don't want to help people brush" which I find funny, given my history on this board







.I think it does support people to discuss ALL sides of any particular treatment.Lotronex may be good for some IBS-Ders and kill other people.Homeopathy may be helpful to some people, but that the methods by which the treatments work make no scientific sense. For what it is worth, I generally tend to trust the scientific evidence OVER clincial experience, because I UNDERSTAND the nature of observational science being a practioner of the art.One HAS to test what one observes in practice, because of all the biases INHERENT in being a human being observing the world.Such as the whole issue of blinding results (clinical experience is never blinded) and how much blind vs non-blind observation has over and over again been PROVEN to have different results because human beings beliefs about what is going on alter what they observe....even in rather objective measures, much less subjective ones.Now I do understand that MANY get benefit from alternative practioners, and that the nature of how alternative practioners work with patients (regardless of whether a given proticol has any chance in hell of working or not., for any rational or irrational reason imaginable) may be much more effective in curing patients than what goes on in a medical doctor's office once the whole "cost cutting" thing gets into play.I just feel it doesn't help to heal people to "just paint the positive" which is what I think is being requested here.I think letting people know all sides of the story is supportive, but then I am probably just an uncaring b***h who is just here to hurt other people and keep them suffering from IBS forever, or something like that














Glad to know my knowledge and caring is so highly regarded by everyone







K.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

So every post should be X works great for everyone!!!!!!!No mention should ever be made that X may or may not be a good treatment for any reason what-so-ever because that "is not supportive".Assuming I am being painted with that "you don't want to help people brush" which I find funny, given my history on this board







.I think it does support people to discuss ALL sides of any particular treatment.Lotronex may be good for some IBS-Ders and kill other people.Homeopathy may be helpful to some people, but that the methods by which the treatments work make no scientific sense. For what it is worth, I generally tend to trust the scientific evidence OVER clincial experience, because I UNDERSTAND the nature of observational science being a practioner of the art.One HAS to test what one observes in practice, because of all the biases INHERENT in being a human being observing the world.Such as the whole issue of blinding results (clinical experience is never blinded) and how much blind vs non-blind observation has over and over again been PROVEN to have different results because human beings beliefs about what is going on alter what they observe....even in rather objective measures, much less subjective ones.Now I do understand that MANY get benefit from alternative practioners, and that the nature of how alternative practioners work with patients (regardless of whether a given proticol has any chance in hell of working or not., for any rational or irrational reason imaginable) may be much more effective in curing patients than what goes on in a medical doctor's office once the whole "cost cutting" thing gets into play.I just feel it doesn't help to heal people to "just paint the positive" which is what I think is being requested here.I think letting people know all sides of the story is supportive, but then I am probably just an uncaring b***h who is just here to hurt other people and keep them suffering from IBS forever, or something like that














Glad to know my knowledge and caring is so highly regarded by everyone







K.


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## crankypants (Aug 25, 2002)

Kmottus,I'm well aware of your extensive history in discussion of IBS, I've seen your posts on Usenet as well. My impression is that your comments are well thought out, informed, and helpful in intent. And I can excuse calling attention to the John Stossel matter. Your decision to "play backup" on this thread was, however, disappointing and if I'm not mistaken, not the first instance either. Timing is everything.


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## crankypants (Aug 25, 2002)

Kmottus,I'm well aware of your extensive history in discussion of IBS, I've seen your posts on Usenet as well. My impression is that your comments are well thought out, informed, and helpful in intent. And I can excuse calling attention to the John Stossel matter. Your decision to "play backup" on this thread was, however, disappointing and if I'm not mistaken, not the first instance either. Timing is everything.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Not necessarily back up but I find that lek/kel seemed to be playing "the someone practicing healing of some sort (medical or alternative) knows the truth based on clinical experience more than any scientifically based experiment could ever uncover the truth and should be trusted way more than those evil scientific types" card to be a less than stellar way to back up the arguement that lek/kel knows the truth better than the rest of us.It is one of the ways I see some proponants of certain methods of healing use to make their stuff sound better than it is.After all, while the "bedside" manner of some alternative practioners may do more to heal patients than any medicine they can be given, it still bothers me that some people may end up spending tons of $$ on stuff that won't help (although paying a healer for services that actually work for you whether the snake oil they sell you could even work or not edit...may work well for you...end edit) isn't always the most supportive route to go. And there is always the fear that people may not get the right treatment because they go to someone who cannot diagnose what they have properly, and who will not take the appropriate treatment because it would interfere with their "alternative" medical attempts.A lot depends on the practioner. I'm sure you can agree that there are people out there just trying to make a buck off of IBSers and not all of them work for HMO's, big drug companies and Medical Schools....but there are those who seem to believe that ALL alternative healers are to be trusted and believed 100% and all doctors are bogus and want to keep you sick forever.And I have heard those types of arguements made.While Flux and I may vary on our presentation, and have some different ideas, we do share a lot of the same scientific view of the world, So I guess I'm just as bad and wrong, and evil and should just shut the f*** up about all that scientifice ####....but I'm just "nicer" about it.....Sigh. But there are those who still want to shut me up.But to each his/her own. I guess....it just gets frustrating, alot....to have the scientific stuff twisted all out of what it means, and have "faith" touted as the only truth light and way around here...but if that is what people want, you deserve what you get.I still hear you as thinking that all ideas need to be "supported" and anything I do to cast anything in a different light other than it is wonderful that this person is trying to cure anyone by any means should be banned from the board. K.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Not necessarily back up but I find that lek/kel seemed to be playing "the someone practicing healing of some sort (medical or alternative) knows the truth based on clinical experience more than any scientifically based experiment could ever uncover the truth and should be trusted way more than those evil scientific types" card to be a less than stellar way to back up the arguement that lek/kel knows the truth better than the rest of us.It is one of the ways I see some proponants of certain methods of healing use to make their stuff sound better than it is.After all, while the "bedside" manner of some alternative practioners may do more to heal patients than any medicine they can be given, it still bothers me that some people may end up spending tons of $$ on stuff that won't help (although paying a healer for services that actually work for you whether the snake oil they sell you could even work or not edit...may work well for you...end edit) isn't always the most supportive route to go. And there is always the fear that people may not get the right treatment because they go to someone who cannot diagnose what they have properly, and who will not take the appropriate treatment because it would interfere with their "alternative" medical attempts.A lot depends on the practioner. I'm sure you can agree that there are people out there just trying to make a buck off of IBSers and not all of them work for HMO's, big drug companies and Medical Schools....but there are those who seem to believe that ALL alternative healers are to be trusted and believed 100% and all doctors are bogus and want to keep you sick forever.And I have heard those types of arguements made.While Flux and I may vary on our presentation, and have some different ideas, we do share a lot of the same scientific view of the world, So I guess I'm just as bad and wrong, and evil and should just shut the f*** up about all that scientifice ####....but I'm just "nicer" about it.....Sigh. But there are those who still want to shut me up.But to each his/her own. I guess....it just gets frustrating, alot....to have the scientific stuff twisted all out of what it means, and have "faith" touted as the only truth light and way around here...but if that is what people want, you deserve what you get.I still hear you as thinking that all ideas need to be "supported" and anything I do to cast anything in a different light other than it is wonderful that this person is trying to cure anyone by any means should be banned from the board. K.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

The point that needs to be made is that the dbpc study has its limitations. Homeopathy is not a very good subject for this type of proof. There are many reasons for this. Individuals differ –some people will not respond to particular remedies based on constitution, underlying/overlaying problems can prolong or interfere, some people may not even respond in general to anything homeopathic for some odd reason. Then there is the high degree of subjectivity in the patient reporting her symptoms plus the subjectivity involved in the practioners recording of symptoms. The length of treatment can be painfully long depending on the condition. There are many factors that play a role in failing to give homeopathy the seal of approval via dbpc.Sometimes it is best for the md’s to use clinical experience as a guide. I don’t think the chinese 4500 years ago were using dbpc studies – I for one am glad that they did not decide to just hang it up because of that. Acupuncture works. Sham acupuncture studies have shown this yet skeptics on another board claim that acupuncture does not work. They site studies to back it up. It could go around in circles for another 4500 years with no resolution. i for one am glad I got off my seat and took matters into my own hands.Cranky don’t stop posting. I enjoy hearing from friends of homeoapthy. Btw, where is garywest? Oh yeah, he got cured from homeopathy – anxiety/panic and all plus dramatic IBS relief – he is gone.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

The point that needs to be made is that the dbpc study has its limitations. Homeopathy is not a very good subject for this type of proof. There are many reasons for this. Individuals differ –some people will not respond to particular remedies based on constitution, underlying/overlaying problems can prolong or interfere, some people may not even respond in general to anything homeopathic for some odd reason. Then there is the high degree of subjectivity in the patient reporting her symptoms plus the subjectivity involved in the practioners recording of symptoms. The length of treatment can be painfully long depending on the condition. There are many factors that play a role in failing to give homeopathy the seal of approval via dbpc.Sometimes it is best for the md’s to use clinical experience as a guide. I don’t think the chinese 4500 years ago were using dbpc studies – I for one am glad that they did not decide to just hang it up because of that. Acupuncture works. Sham acupuncture studies have shown this yet skeptics on another board claim that acupuncture does not work. They site studies to back it up. It could go around in circles for another 4500 years with no resolution. i for one am glad I got off my seat and took matters into my own hands.Cranky don’t stop posting. I enjoy hearing from friends of homeoapthy. Btw, where is garywest? Oh yeah, he got cured from homeopathy – anxiety/panic and all plus dramatic IBS relief – he is gone.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: There are many reasons for this.


Just one: it doesn't work.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: There are many reasons for this.


Just one: it doesn't work.


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## crankypants (Aug 25, 2002)

This is about the philosophy and the politics of alt med v. the establishment, but only secondarily so, and IMO, Kel's comment says enough about that for now:


> quote:a true skeptic/scientist will keep an open mind


K, your comments suggest that "presentation" and being "nice" are inconsequential issues in this forum. I would disagree, and it's primarily presentation that I was objecting to. People come here tired, embarrassed, disgusted, in pain, and often burdened with anxiety and depression--problems strongly associated with IBS, as you know. The last thing someone with all that baggage needs is to have to try to dodge a professional attack dog. Or to post a question or a story and get little more than unpleasant nonsense in response, thanks to some troll interjecting hostile, inflammatory, and even irrational one-liners and pugnacious graphics that drag the conversation down to the level of a schoolyard fight. "Yes it is!" "No it's not!" "Yes it is, nyah nyah!" This thread is nothing compared to others I've seen--it just happens to be one that I started, and I was already running on empty in terms of patience with this problem.Attack and ridicule do nothing to illuminate or educate, and if anything, they cause people's positions to harden. IMO we should not support members who engage in that kind of posting by following behind and--in effect, if not intent--making their arguments for them. That's all.


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## crankypants (Aug 25, 2002)

This is about the philosophy and the politics of alt med v. the establishment, but only secondarily so, and IMO, Kel's comment says enough about that for now:


> quote:a true skeptic/scientist will keep an open mind


K, your comments suggest that "presentation" and being "nice" are inconsequential issues in this forum. I would disagree, and it's primarily presentation that I was objecting to. People come here tired, embarrassed, disgusted, in pain, and often burdened with anxiety and depression--problems strongly associated with IBS, as you know. The last thing someone with all that baggage needs is to have to try to dodge a professional attack dog. Or to post a question or a story and get little more than unpleasant nonsense in response, thanks to some troll interjecting hostile, inflammatory, and even irrational one-liners and pugnacious graphics that drag the conversation down to the level of a schoolyard fight. "Yes it is!" "No it's not!" "Yes it is, nyah nyah!" This thread is nothing compared to others I've seen--it just happens to be one that I started, and I was already running on empty in terms of patience with this problem.Attack and ridicule do nothing to illuminate or educate, and if anything, they cause people's positions to harden. IMO we should not support members who engage in that kind of posting by following behind and--in effect, if not intent--making their arguments for them. That's all.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:EvhR0...&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 In France today, it is estimated that 12% of general practitioners use homeopathic remedies regularly and more than 50% use them occasionally.Other professions also make use of homeopathy: dental surgeons (2,000), veterinarians (700), and more and more specialists (approximately 500; more than 100 of them are pediatricians, but there are also gynecologists, ENT's, etc.)In Italy, 7,500 physicians prescribe homeopathic remedies. Training is offered in the major cities (Bologna, Milan, Rome, Turin, Florence, Venice, etc.).In Belgium, there are some 2,000 prescribers of homeopathic remedies.In Spain, training has been offered for over 15 years in collaboration with the most prestigious universities (Salamanca, Seville, Valladolid, Murcia, etc.) or in collaboration with the Physicians Association (Alicante, Valencia, etc.). The number of physicians prescribing homeopathic remedies is estimated to be about 4,000.In Eastern and Central Europe, many physicians have been trained in homeopathy in recent years (more than 8,000 in Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovakia for example). They participate in providing homeopathic remedies to patients in these countries who have long been deprived of them.In Brazil (there are more than 10,000 prescribers of homeopathic remedies), in Mexico, (approximately 3,000 physicians), in India, and all over the world, many physicians count on the efficacy of homeopathic remedies.The best known in Europe are Glasgow Homeopathic Hospital, Royal London Homeopathic Hospital and Hï¿½pital Saint-Jacques in Paris.In Mexico, it is estimated that approximately 120,000 homeopathic consultations take place each year in official homeopathic hospitals and clinics.Some countries, like Russia, now have new homeopathic consultations in hospitals.In Russia, "polyclinics", where homeopathic physicians practice, refer patients, if need be, to hospital consultations. Thus, patients can be hospitalized and be treated by the homeopathic attending physician. Moreover, specialized centers or clinics (group practices) allow patients to obtain care with homeopathic treatments. The Moscow homeopathic center employs 120 homeopathic physicians and celebrated its 90th birthday in 2000.In France, in Paris, Hï¿½pital Saint-Jacques and the Hahnemann clinic perpetuate a long tradition of homeopathic care. Hï¿½tel Dieu and Hï¿½pital Saint-Luc in Lyon, Hï¿½pital Tenon in Paris and Hï¿½pital Pellegrin in Bordeaux offer homeopathic consultations provided by homeopathic physicians in several specializations: gastroenterology, pediatrics, obstetrics and gynecology, ENT, etc.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:EvhR0...&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 In France today, it is estimated that 12% of general practitioners use homeopathic remedies regularly and more than 50% use them occasionally.Other professions also make use of homeopathy: dental surgeons (2,000), veterinarians (700), and more and more specialists (approximately 500; more than 100 of them are pediatricians, but there are also gynecologists, ENT's, etc.)In Italy, 7,500 physicians prescribe homeopathic remedies. Training is offered in the major cities (Bologna, Milan, Rome, Turin, Florence, Venice, etc.).In Belgium, there are some 2,000 prescribers of homeopathic remedies.In Spain, training has been offered for over 15 years in collaboration with the most prestigious universities (Salamanca, Seville, Valladolid, Murcia, etc.) or in collaboration with the Physicians Association (Alicante, Valencia, etc.). The number of physicians prescribing homeopathic remedies is estimated to be about 4,000.In Eastern and Central Europe, many physicians have been trained in homeopathy in recent years (more than 8,000 in Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovakia for example). They participate in providing homeopathic remedies to patients in these countries who have long been deprived of them.In Brazil (there are more than 10,000 prescribers of homeopathic remedies), in Mexico, (approximately 3,000 physicians), in India, and all over the world, many physicians count on the efficacy of homeopathic remedies.The best known in Europe are Glasgow Homeopathic Hospital, Royal London Homeopathic Hospital and Hï¿½pital Saint-Jacques in Paris.In Mexico, it is estimated that approximately 120,000 homeopathic consultations take place each year in official homeopathic hospitals and clinics.Some countries, like Russia, now have new homeopathic consultations in hospitals.In Russia, "polyclinics", where homeopathic physicians practice, refer patients, if need be, to hospital consultations. Thus, patients can be hospitalized and be treated by the homeopathic attending physician. Moreover, specialized centers or clinics (group practices) allow patients to obtain care with homeopathic treatments. The Moscow homeopathic center employs 120 homeopathic physicians and celebrated its 90th birthday in 2000.In France, in Paris, Hï¿½pital Saint-Jacques and the Hahnemann clinic perpetuate a long tradition of homeopathic care. Hï¿½tel Dieu and Hï¿½pital Saint-Luc in Lyon, Hï¿½pital Tenon in Paris and Hï¿½pital Pellegrin in Bordeaux offer homeopathic consultations provided by homeopathic physicians in several specializations: gastroenterology, pediatrics, obstetrics and gynecology, ENT, etc.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

Could these numbers just be made up?


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

Could these numbers just be made up?


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## Linda C (Aug 29, 2001)

It's unfortunate that there are people (well, at least one) on this BB who feel they are the all-knowing entity who can dictate what does and does not work. In any case, I do have about 12 years' experience with homeopathy I could comment on. It, in fact, DOES work. It certainly did in my case. I had severe IBS from about age 15, to the point where I could not live a normal life. I had every test, tried every conventional treatment, etc., but had no success. I went to see a homeopath as a "last resort," having absolutely no faith in it. Within 5-7 days I was almost completely symptom-free. Through the years, I have continued to visit my homeopath and she has successfully treated me for a number of acute and chronic conditions, where the "regular" doctors have failed. I don't know a lot about how it works, and to be honest, I don't really care. Unlike others, I don't feel the need to (and I quote) "read scientific and medical texts" to find out what works, nor do I "have access to sources of medical information that are not readily available to others." My beliefs are not based on "the latest medical research and consensus of recognized experts," because, to be honest, the so-called experts have failed me each and every time I have sought help from them. My opinions and advice are based solely on my experience, which are much more relevant to me than any medical texts.If anyone is interested in finding out more about my experience with homeopathy, feel free to ask. If you'd rather poo-poo the whole thing (no pun intended!) then that's your right, but please try not to use your negativity to prevent others from gaining the information they are seeking.


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## Linda C (Aug 29, 2001)

It's unfortunate that there are people (well, at least one) on this BB who feel they are the all-knowing entity who can dictate what does and does not work. In any case, I do have about 12 years' experience with homeopathy I could comment on. It, in fact, DOES work. It certainly did in my case. I had severe IBS from about age 15, to the point where I could not live a normal life. I had every test, tried every conventional treatment, etc., but had no success. I went to see a homeopath as a "last resort," having absolutely no faith in it. Within 5-7 days I was almost completely symptom-free. Through the years, I have continued to visit my homeopath and she has successfully treated me for a number of acute and chronic conditions, where the "regular" doctors have failed. I don't know a lot about how it works, and to be honest, I don't really care. Unlike others, I don't feel the need to (and I quote) "read scientific and medical texts" to find out what works, nor do I "have access to sources of medical information that are not readily available to others." My beliefs are not based on "the latest medical research and consensus of recognized experts," because, to be honest, the so-called experts have failed me each and every time I have sought help from them. My opinions and advice are based solely on my experience, which are much more relevant to me than any medical texts.If anyone is interested in finding out more about my experience with homeopathy, feel free to ask. If you'd rather poo-poo the whole thing (no pun intended!) then that's your right, but please try not to use your negativity to prevent others from gaining the information they are seeking.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: went to see a homeopath as a "last resort," having absolutely no faith in it. Within 5-7 days I was almost completely symptom-free.


Where's the homeopathy? How do you know the two are related? Could it be you just got better coincidentally at the same time?


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: went to see a homeopath as a "last resort," having absolutely no faith in it. Within 5-7 days I was almost completely symptom-free.


Where's the homeopathy? How do you know the two are related? Could it be you just got better coincidentally at the same time?


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## AlphaMale (Jan 21, 2004)

> quote:Where's the homeopathy? How do you know the two are related? Could it be you just got better coincidentally at the same time?


Questions reflect lack of trust and lack of respect.


> quote: I am not a doctor, nor do I work in the medical field.


I do not think anyone will confuse you with a Doctor,I may confuse you with


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## AlphaMale (Jan 21, 2004)

> quote:Where's the homeopathy? How do you know the two are related? Could it be you just got better coincidentally at the same time?


Questions reflect lack of trust and lack of respect.


> quote: I am not a doctor, nor do I work in the medical field.


I do not think anyone will confuse you with a Doctor,I may confuse you with


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## AlphaMale (Jan 21, 2004)

Linda CCan you post your experience, ignore flux. There people who are interrested.Remember your experience can help others, that what this gathering is all about.


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## AlphaMale (Jan 21, 2004)

Linda CCan you post your experience, ignore flux. There people who are interrested.Remember your experience can help others, that what this gathering is all about.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

linda, i enjoyed reading your testimonial. you are living proof that homeopathy does work but it is not so powerful to guarantee that we will be perfectly healthy the remainder of our lives. sometimes new illnesses or even the old ones can return. i wish you luck in battling the problems that have resurfaced.beautylover, i understand that homeopathy has a nice size following in the middle east. i suspect that it is more popular there than in the US/Canada. I know that it is very popular in India/Pakistan. it is refreshing that we can learn from countries that are not so driven by the economic($) of healthcare. cranky,i think i just needed the correct remedy -- lycopodium. i know that i still have a ways to go with things but i think i finally have seen results with respect to my IBS (gas very low, gut extremely calm). I was very frustrated because my IBS did not respond at all to homeopathy ever since i started it last October.of course, no one can make up their mind as to what is the 'correct remedy'. some homeopaths insist that there is only one correct remedy for each person, and that anything that just removes some of the symptoms is not the true remedy. i'll settle for what i can get.************************************************************************* http://my.webmd.com/content/article/30/1728_72611 "We set this up as a pilot study, not really expecting to see any positive effect from homeopathy," says researcher Jennifer Jacobs, MD, MPH, clinical assistant professor of epidemiology at the University of Washington School of Public Health and Community Medicine in Seattle. "We were surprised that homeopathy decreased symptoms [of middle ear infections] in the first 24 hours of treatment." The implications are important. Not only did the researchers determine that individualized homeopathic treatments can give early relief to the ear pain, fever, and fussiness associated with ear infections, they also say such treatment could potentially help reduce antibiotic use in children, something which has been associated with increasing rates of antibiotic resistance. The study, which appears in the February issue of the Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal, was funded by the Standard Homeopathic Company and took place in a private pediatric practice in Seattle. Children with middle ear infection received either a homeopathic remedy geared to their specific symptoms, or a placebo. They took the pills three times daily for five days, or until their ear pain and fever got better, whichever came first.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

linda, i enjoyed reading your testimonial. you are living proof that homeopathy does work but it is not so powerful to guarantee that we will be perfectly healthy the remainder of our lives. sometimes new illnesses or even the old ones can return. i wish you luck in battling the problems that have resurfaced.beautylover, i understand that homeopathy has a nice size following in the middle east. i suspect that it is more popular there than in the US/Canada. I know that it is very popular in India/Pakistan. it is refreshing that we can learn from countries that are not so driven by the economic($) of healthcare. cranky,i think i just needed the correct remedy -- lycopodium. i know that i still have a ways to go with things but i think i finally have seen results with respect to my IBS (gas very low, gut extremely calm). I was very frustrated because my IBS did not respond at all to homeopathy ever since i started it last October.of course, no one can make up their mind as to what is the 'correct remedy'. some homeopaths insist that there is only one correct remedy for each person, and that anything that just removes some of the symptoms is not the true remedy. i'll settle for what i can get.************************************************************************* http://my.webmd.com/content/article/30/1728_72611 "We set this up as a pilot study, not really expecting to see any positive effect from homeopathy," says researcher Jennifer Jacobs, MD, MPH, clinical assistant professor of epidemiology at the University of Washington School of Public Health and Community Medicine in Seattle. "We were surprised that homeopathy decreased symptoms [of middle ear infections] in the first 24 hours of treatment." The implications are important. Not only did the researchers determine that individualized homeopathic treatments can give early relief to the ear pain, fever, and fussiness associated with ear infections, they also say such treatment could potentially help reduce antibiotic use in children, something which has been associated with increasing rates of antibiotic resistance. The study, which appears in the February issue of the Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal, was funded by the Standard Homeopathic Company and took place in a private pediatric practice in Seattle. Children with middle ear infection received either a homeopathic remedy geared to their specific symptoms, or a placebo. They took the pills three times daily for five days, or until their ear pain and fever got better, whichever came first.


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## crankypants (Aug 25, 2002)

> quote: Remember your experience can help others, that what this gathering is all about.


Amen.


> quote: homeopathy does work but it is not so powerful to guarantee that we will be perfectly healthy the remainder of our lives.


Alas, nothing is...


> quote: sometimes new illnesses or even the old ones can return.


Eventually our constitutional weaknesses bring us down. Sometimes though, a higher dose of a previous remedy will re-establish health for a time.


> quote: i think i just needed the correct remedy -- lycopodium. i know that i still have a ways to go with things but i think i finally have seen results with respect to my IBS (gas very low, gut extremely calm).


How about the Sulfur, Kel? I'm curious to know if you noticed any further changes since you took that? I think Sulfur does come up a lot in connection with digestive problems. But some practitioners and students have commented that the polycrests are the homeopathic equivalent of Zoloft... they tend to be overprescribed.


> quotef course, no one can make up their mind as to what is the 'correct remedy'. some homeopaths insist that there is only one correct remedy for each person, and that anything that just removes some of the symptoms is not the true remedy.


You mean only one constitutional remedy, for life? That's pretty extreme... I thought the classical homeopaths were just conservative in the use of multiple remedies, especially multiple concurrent remedies. Certainly there is a lack of unanimity on the proper use of the remedies, though, and it doesn't help the cause of acceptance of the discipline. To begin with, people have trouble believing that the process of choosing a remedy is so fundamentally different from what it is in allopathic practice--they are used to a "one molecule, one symptom" approach, as Dr. D said. When a remedy doesn't work, a skeptic is unlikely to presume that the prescriber failed to elicit an important sign, or keyed on the wrong rubric; the more likely conclusion is "oh, this homeopathy is just a big placebo-driven fantasy trip." There is a lot of art to it, and it is *very* dependent on communication skills.


> quote: "We set this up as a pilot study, not really expecting to see any positive effect from homeopathy," says researcher Jennifer Jacobs, MD, MPH, clinical assistant professor of epidemiology at the University of Washington School of Public Health and Community Medicine in Seattle. "We were surprised that homeopathy decreased symptoms [of middle ear infections] in the first 24 hours of treatment."


Can't speak for children, but I can testify Pulsatilla works like magic on dirty cat ears --at least, for one particular cat









> quote: such treatment could potentially help reduce antibiotic use in children


Without a doubt, this is one of the more exciting potential benefits of wider acceptance of homeopathy. Just this week we have a study linking extensive antibiotic use with increased risk of breast cancer... Antibiotics work because they're toxic. The less of them the better, and not only for kids.


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## crankypants (Aug 25, 2002)

> quote: Remember your experience can help others, that what this gathering is all about.


Amen.


> quote: homeopathy does work but it is not so powerful to guarantee that we will be perfectly healthy the remainder of our lives.


Alas, nothing is...


> quote: sometimes new illnesses or even the old ones can return.


Eventually our constitutional weaknesses bring us down. Sometimes though, a higher dose of a previous remedy will re-establish health for a time.


> quote: i think i just needed the correct remedy -- lycopodium. i know that i still have a ways to go with things but i think i finally have seen results with respect to my IBS (gas very low, gut extremely calm).


How about the Sulfur, Kel? I'm curious to know if you noticed any further changes since you took that? I think Sulfur does come up a lot in connection with digestive problems. But some practitioners and students have commented that the polycrests are the homeopathic equivalent of Zoloft... they tend to be overprescribed.


> quotef course, no one can make up their mind as to what is the 'correct remedy'. some homeopaths insist that there is only one correct remedy for each person, and that anything that just removes some of the symptoms is not the true remedy.


You mean only one constitutional remedy, for life? That's pretty extreme... I thought the classical homeopaths were just conservative in the use of multiple remedies, especially multiple concurrent remedies. Certainly there is a lack of unanimity on the proper use of the remedies, though, and it doesn't help the cause of acceptance of the discipline. To begin with, people have trouble believing that the process of choosing a remedy is so fundamentally different from what it is in allopathic practice--they are used to a "one molecule, one symptom" approach, as Dr. D said. When a remedy doesn't work, a skeptic is unlikely to presume that the prescriber failed to elicit an important sign, or keyed on the wrong rubric; the more likely conclusion is "oh, this homeopathy is just a big placebo-driven fantasy trip." There is a lot of art to it, and it is *very* dependent on communication skills.


> quote: "We set this up as a pilot study, not really expecting to see any positive effect from homeopathy," says researcher Jennifer Jacobs, MD, MPH, clinical assistant professor of epidemiology at the University of Washington School of Public Health and Community Medicine in Seattle. "We were surprised that homeopathy decreased symptoms [of middle ear infections] in the first 24 hours of treatment."


Can't speak for children, but I can testify Pulsatilla works like magic on dirty cat ears --at least, for one particular cat









> quote: such treatment could potentially help reduce antibiotic use in children


Without a doubt, this is one of the more exciting potential benefits of wider acceptance of homeopathy. Just this week we have a study linking extensive antibiotic use with increased risk of breast cancer... Antibiotics work because they're toxic. The less of them the better, and not only for kids.


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## Linda C (Aug 29, 2001)

Hi Guys,Here's a brief overview of my experience with IBS and homeopathy:I developed IBS at the age of 15 after some type of severe gastric bug while on a trip in Florida. It got worse over several months and I was sick pretty much all the time for about 4-5 years (IBS-D). Of course I tried various medications and had lots of tests done, etc., etc.When I was about 19, on a whim, I decided to go to a free lecture on naturopathic medicine. I was intrigued but definitely not convinced that it was "for real." I made an appointment with a homeopath in Toronto. My first appointment was about 2 hours long. She asked me very detailed questions, not only about my symptoms, but also about my characteristics, emotions, etc.... By the end of the appointment, she had basically figured out what remedy she thought would be right for me. At that point, she asked me some very detailed, obscure questions (e.g., "Do you ever crave red licorice?" or "Do you get in-grown toe-nails in your big toe on your right foot?"). I was somewhat blown away because I had been eating tons of red licorice throughout that time period - I was ALWAYS craving it - and I indeed DID have the right-big-toe-ingrown-toenail! There were several examples like this, but I've forgotten them over the years. It turned out that the "remedy picture" that I fit into was Lycopodium. I started taking it at different frequencies and different potencies based on the homeopath's recommendations. My symptoms improved almost immediately and within a week, I was basically symptom-free. I got to the point where I didn't have to take it all the time - only if/when I relapsed. I did that, and found that the relapses got further and further apart, so I had to take the remedy very rarely and, eventually, not at all.I then had several years that were almost IBS-free. I had the odd bad day now and then, but they were very rare and not serious - probably as frequent as anyone who doesn't have IBS. I continued to see the homeopath for other acute illnesses that I would get. One that stands out is when I had strep throat. I woke up one morning and my throat was almost completely closed. I was home from university for the summer (still age 19), so my mom took me to an emergency clinic where I was diagnosed with strep and prescribed heavy-duty antibiotics. I finished the prescription and one day later, the strep came back. I took another complete prescription of antibiotics. Again, a day later, it came back. This happened three times, so I gave up on the antibiotics. Finally, I called my homeopath in Toronto. She told me what remedy I needed. I took it and within 1-2 days the strep was gone and never returned (and never HAS returned since then.)I am now 31 years old. In the past four years or so, I have been experiencing off-and-on IBS symptoms again, though not nearly as bad as it was when I was younger. The homeopath believes that the lycopodium took me to a certain point, but that it must not have been the exact remedy - otherise, the IBS wouldn't return. She is researching other similar/related remedies to try to find the right one. In the meantime, she continues to successfully treat me for other acute illnesses that creep up every now and then (colds, flus, etc.). I actually haven't taken any type of prescription pills for any reason since I started seeing my homeopath 12 years ago. Sorry - looks like I got a little carried away here.. this post is long! Hope this is useful to someone out there!Linda


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## Linda C (Aug 29, 2001)

Hi Guys,Here's a brief overview of my experience with IBS and homeopathy:I developed IBS at the age of 15 after some type of severe gastric bug while on a trip in Florida. It got worse over several months and I was sick pretty much all the time for about 4-5 years (IBS-D). Of course I tried various medications and had lots of tests done, etc., etc.When I was about 19, on a whim, I decided to go to a free lecture on naturopathic medicine. I was intrigued but definitely not convinced that it was "for real." I made an appointment with a homeopath in Toronto. My first appointment was about 2 hours long. She asked me very detailed questions, not only about my symptoms, but also about my characteristics, emotions, etc.... By the end of the appointment, she had basically figured out what remedy she thought would be right for me. At that point, she asked me some very detailed, obscure questions (e.g., "Do you ever crave red licorice?" or "Do you get in-grown toe-nails in your big toe on your right foot?"). I was somewhat blown away because I had been eating tons of red licorice throughout that time period - I was ALWAYS craving it - and I indeed DID have the right-big-toe-ingrown-toenail! There were several examples like this, but I've forgotten them over the years. It turned out that the "remedy picture" that I fit into was Lycopodium. I started taking it at different frequencies and different potencies based on the homeopath's recommendations. My symptoms improved almost immediately and within a week, I was basically symptom-free. I got to the point where I didn't have to take it all the time - only if/when I relapsed. I did that, and found that the relapses got further and further apart, so I had to take the remedy very rarely and, eventually, not at all.I then had several years that were almost IBS-free. I had the odd bad day now and then, but they were very rare and not serious - probably as frequent as anyone who doesn't have IBS. I continued to see the homeopath for other acute illnesses that I would get. One that stands out is when I had strep throat. I woke up one morning and my throat was almost completely closed. I was home from university for the summer (still age 19), so my mom took me to an emergency clinic where I was diagnosed with strep and prescribed heavy-duty antibiotics. I finished the prescription and one day later, the strep came back. I took another complete prescription of antibiotics. Again, a day later, it came back. This happened three times, so I gave up on the antibiotics. Finally, I called my homeopath in Toronto. She told me what remedy I needed. I took it and within 1-2 days the strep was gone and never returned (and never HAS returned since then.)I am now 31 years old. In the past four years or so, I have been experiencing off-and-on IBS symptoms again, though not nearly as bad as it was when I was younger. The homeopath believes that the lycopodium took me to a certain point, but that it must not have been the exact remedy - otherise, the IBS wouldn't return. She is researching other similar/related remedies to try to find the right one. In the meantime, she continues to successfully treat me for other acute illnesses that creep up every now and then (colds, flus, etc.). I actually haven't taken any type of prescription pills for any reason since I started seeing my homeopath 12 years ago. Sorry - looks like I got a little carried away here.. this post is long! Hope this is useful to someone out there!Linda


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

The up side of homeopathy


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

The up side of homeopathy


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## AlphaMale (Jan 21, 2004)

I have been facing difficulties translating the plant names back and forth. I have tried few local plants, but they are not better than mineral supplements.So far I did not seek help from some known homeopathy practioners because they are either living far in isolated villages, or they are so booked that I have to spend a full day to see them.I have been neglegent long enough I just start paying attention, if I find something usefull I will definatly make as many poeople aware as I can. Best regards


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## AlphaMale (Jan 21, 2004)

I have been facing difficulties translating the plant names back and forth. I have tried few local plants, but they are not better than mineral supplements.So far I did not seek help from some known homeopathy practioners because they are either living far in isolated villages, or they are so booked that I have to spend a full day to see them.I have been neglegent long enough I just start paying attention, if I find something usefull I will definatly make as many poeople aware as I can. Best regards


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

CP,The effects of the sulfur remedy is kind of hard to determine at the present. I ended up with a large canker sore on the inside of my cheek; lots of diarrhea (this is rare, especially D that wakes me through the night as it did); both my eyes got all bloodshot, painful and dry; vaginal discharge; bad odors (embarrassing to admit this because I am a very clean and fit person). It is too difficult to tell if anything really positive has happened yet. Last October the effects were unmistakable but this is a little more difficult. I agree that only one constitutional remedy for life is extreme. I have no idea on these things.Linda,Your story was very useful to me. It seems that the lycopodium may be common to both of us. Also, it is always good to hear from a fellow IBSer who has been helped by homeopathy. For a while I was getting very frustrated because it was not doing anything for my IBS symptoms. I was told to be patient but that can be difficult.There was another person here by the name of garywest and he has reported very good results from his treatment with an indian homeopath.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

CP,The effects of the sulfur remedy is kind of hard to determine at the present. I ended up with a large canker sore on the inside of my cheek; lots of diarrhea (this is rare, especially D that wakes me through the night as it did); both my eyes got all bloodshot, painful and dry; vaginal discharge; bad odors (embarrassing to admit this because I am a very clean and fit person). It is too difficult to tell if anything really positive has happened yet. Last October the effects were unmistakable but this is a little more difficult. I agree that only one constitutional remedy for life is extreme. I have no idea on these things.Linda,Your story was very useful to me. It seems that the lycopodium may be common to both of us. Also, it is always good to hear from a fellow IBSer who has been helped by homeopathy. For a while I was getting very frustrated because it was not doing anything for my IBS symptoms. I was told to be patient but that can be difficult.There was another person here by the name of garywest and he has reported very good results from his treatment with an indian homeopath.


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## crankypants (Aug 25, 2002)

Kel--Interesting bits from Boericke's materia medica on Sulphur:"Its action is centrifugal--from within outward <...> When carefully-selected remedies fail to act, especially in acute diseases, it frequently arouses the reactionary powers of the organism. Complaints that relapse. General offensive character of discharge and exhalations...""Painless morning diarrhea" is also mentioned as a strong characteristic. Boericke MM ### HI


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## crankypants (Aug 25, 2002)

Kel--Interesting bits from Boericke's materia medica on Sulphur:"Its action is centrifugal--from within outward <...> When carefully-selected remedies fail to act, especially in acute diseases, it frequently arouses the reactionary powers of the organism. Complaints that relapse. General offensive character of discharge and exhalations...""Painless morning diarrhea" is also mentioned as a strong characteristic. Boericke MM ### HI


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## Linda C (Aug 29, 2001)

lek,Some of the reactions you mentioned are, I believe, a positive sign. I know that, in the past, I've had some of those reactions to remedies that DID work. They didn't last long. The canker is a classic one. It has consistently been a sign that I've taken the right remedy. Hopefully you'll notice some positive changes soon. Good luck.


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## Linda C (Aug 29, 2001)

lek,Some of the reactions you mentioned are, I believe, a positive sign. I know that, in the past, I've had some of those reactions to remedies that DID work. They didn't last long. The canker is a classic one. It has consistently been a sign that I've taken the right remedy. Hopefully you'll notice some positive changes soon. Good luck.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

CP & linda,this is rather interesting and exciting. i hope that sulfur is a good remedy for me. my sinuses are doing better since taking it but i will be the first to admit that this proves nothing.of the 3 remedies the nux vomica 1M left the biggest impression (unmistakable effects), then the lycopodium, and trailing in last place is sulfur.diminishing returns may be setting in due to improvements in overall health. my health does seem to be getting better but i am nervous about a big setback.CP,i hope that one of these days you can embark on this same journey as me. it would be fun to see your progress. you have a lot of health issues --same as me. i thought that all my health issues would be the reason that homeopathy would not work. turns out that all the health issues just makes things a little more complicated. i'll settle for having things slowly chipped away.linda,good hearing from you. in the future if your homeopath solves the problem can you post it or send a PM. others people successes are important to me. i like to know that i am not crazy.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

CP & linda,this is rather interesting and exciting. i hope that sulfur is a good remedy for me. my sinuses are doing better since taking it but i will be the first to admit that this proves nothing.of the 3 remedies the nux vomica 1M left the biggest impression (unmistakable effects), then the lycopodium, and trailing in last place is sulfur.diminishing returns may be setting in due to improvements in overall health. my health does seem to be getting better but i am nervous about a big setback.CP,i hope that one of these days you can embark on this same journey as me. it would be fun to see your progress. you have a lot of health issues --same as me. i thought that all my health issues would be the reason that homeopathy would not work. turns out that all the health issues just makes things a little more complicated. i'll settle for having things slowly chipped away.linda,good hearing from you. in the future if your homeopath solves the problem can you post it or send a PM. others people successes are important to me. i like to know that i am not crazy.


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## missC (Oct 16, 2002)

"I must say I'd also like to know what our moderator would do if everyone in this forum used his or her signature as the vehicle for a campaign to totally discredit another user..."cranky, i for one am totally up for it. it's late now and i don't know how to apply a signature to my posts. how about we (i think we all know who constitutes 'we' in this context) work on it over the weekend, fine-tuning virulently abusive and libellous signatures about ... oh ... certain people? anybody want to lay bets on how long before we get kicked off the board? i'd say less than 48 hours ...


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## missC (Oct 16, 2002)

"I must say I'd also like to know what our moderator would do if everyone in this forum used his or her signature as the vehicle for a campaign to totally discredit another user..."cranky, i for one am totally up for it. it's late now and i don't know how to apply a signature to my posts. how about we (i think we all know who constitutes 'we' in this context) work on it over the weekend, fine-tuning virulently abusive and libellous signatures about ... oh ... certain people? anybody want to lay bets on how long before we get kicked off the board? i'd say less than 48 hours ...


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## crankypants (Aug 25, 2002)

Hi Miss C,That was a purely rhetorical question on my part... but I think the idea is worth filing under "last resort"...


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## crankypants (Aug 25, 2002)

Hi Miss C,That was a purely rhetorical question on my part... but I think the idea is worth filing under "last resort"...


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## crankypants (Aug 25, 2002)

lek said:


> quote:i hope that one of these days you can embark on this same journey as me. it would be fun to see your progress. you have a lot of health issues --same as me. i thought that all my health issues would be the reason that homeopathy would not work. turns out that all the health issues just makes things a little more complicated. i'll settle for having things slowly chipped away.


I have been thinking about going to a homeopathic professional for a long time. Financial considerations have inhibited me. (The cats, of course, get first priority in the medical budget














) But I know just what you mean about thinking we have too many issues to untangle. Having lots of waxing and waning symptoms and concerns just has to make the already challenging task of repertorizing that much harder. So another factor is that I have been kind of hanging on waiting for the worst of the perimenopausal follies to pass. I was also preoccupied for much of last year with a neurologic syndrome following a neck injury--talk about a confounding factor. Physical therapy finally overcame that in the last quarter. I think the hormone rollercoaster is flattening out now, but spring will tell--that's been my pattern. Maybe '04 will be my year to get my constitution tuned up and see what that does for the ol' bowel function. If so I'll let you know how I do!


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## crankypants (Aug 25, 2002)

lek said:


> quote:i hope that one of these days you can embark on this same journey as me. it would be fun to see your progress. you have a lot of health issues --same as me. i thought that all my health issues would be the reason that homeopathy would not work. turns out that all the health issues just makes things a little more complicated. i'll settle for having things slowly chipped away.


I have been thinking about going to a homeopathic professional for a long time. Financial considerations have inhibited me. (The cats, of course, get first priority in the medical budget














) But I know just what you mean about thinking we have too many issues to untangle. Having lots of waxing and waning symptoms and concerns just has to make the already challenging task of repertorizing that much harder. So another factor is that I have been kind of hanging on waiting for the worst of the perimenopausal follies to pass. I was also preoccupied for much of last year with a neurologic syndrome following a neck injury--talk about a confounding factor. Physical therapy finally overcame that in the last quarter. I think the hormone rollercoaster is flattening out now, but spring will tell--that's been my pattern. Maybe '04 will be my year to get my constitution tuned up and see what that does for the ol' bowel function. If so I'll let you know how I do!


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

thanks guys. i am actually glad that he chooses to attack me. new people will see it and know that they are not unique in case they are on the receiving end of an assault.CP,you are definitely sharp; i can see it in the way you write. please don't be offended but i hope that you don't outsmart yourself just as i have done many times. i think that a good homeopath can get a good "feel" for what the true you really is just by listening to you. i don't think it matters that things are bouncing around all over the place.however, the financial situation is something that can put the brakes on any good plan. at least you can go into it with a fair amount of confidence whereas the non-believers would be more likely to go into it thinking --- "i am going to plunge to the bottom of despair after falling for this scam".i didn't think it would work for me, but i just said to myself, "if i'm going down, i'm going down fighting".fortunately the follow ups are much cheaper than the initial visit. in my case it got me off of 2 drugs and i think that i will end up saving money in many other areas especially supplements. i would cancel my health insurance except that with my luck my appendix would burst the next day.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

thanks guys. i am actually glad that he chooses to attack me. new people will see it and know that they are not unique in case they are on the receiving end of an assault.CP,you are definitely sharp; i can see it in the way you write. please don't be offended but i hope that you don't outsmart yourself just as i have done many times. i think that a good homeopath can get a good "feel" for what the true you really is just by listening to you. i don't think it matters that things are bouncing around all over the place.however, the financial situation is something that can put the brakes on any good plan. at least you can go into it with a fair amount of confidence whereas the non-believers would be more likely to go into it thinking --- "i am going to plunge to the bottom of despair after falling for this scam".i didn't think it would work for me, but i just said to myself, "if i'm going down, i'm going down fighting".fortunately the follow ups are much cheaper than the initial visit. in my case it got me off of 2 drugs and i think that i will end up saving money in many other areas especially supplements. i would cancel my health insurance except that with my luck my appendix would burst the next day.


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## crankypants (Aug 25, 2002)

> quote:you are definitely sharp; i can see it in the way you write. please don't be offended but i hope that you don't outsmart yourself just as i have done many times.


Thanks... yes, I do sometimes analyze things to death when I should just "go for it."


> quote: i think that a good homeopath can get a good "feel"


Absolutely, I agree--and there's the BIG rub. I need to track down a good homeopath somehow, as the cost of a lousy one could be more than financial... How did you choose yours?


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## crankypants (Aug 25, 2002)

> quote:you are definitely sharp; i can see it in the way you write. please don't be offended but i hope that you don't outsmart yourself just as i have done many times.


Thanks... yes, I do sometimes analyze things to death when I should just "go for it."


> quote: i think that a good homeopath can get a good "feel"


Absolutely, I agree--and there's the BIG rub. I need to track down a good homeopath somehow, as the cost of a lousy one could be more than financial... How did you choose yours?


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

my medical doctor was so impressed with homeopathic treatment that his office hired one. the only problem is that he also practices acupuncture and chinese herbal medicine and wanted to do acupuncture on me instead. like anything -- it is all a business. the acupuncture generates more money.anyway, i decided that i would be more comfortable with a homeopath who only does homeopathy instead of spreading himself thin so i switched to one who has almost 20 years experience.i analyze things to death also. i remember back in august i was at the doctor's office holding the card of the homeopath in my hand -- i was thinking to myself, "this is unbelievable, it will never solve MY problems". early october rolled around and i was at the same doctor's office and seesawed back and forth but then finally just pulled the trigger.i am almost embarrassed talking about it but it was much more powerful than i ever imagined. within a few days i no longer felt sick throughout the day and my chronic irritability disappeared. --even bonniei has noticed the change in me.--but from there it was a bit of a roller coaster. for me it has not been the easiest experience and to this very day i still have my fingers crossed. i want all of my problems solved not just some of them. right now i am mildly impressed -- my sinuses have been clear for several days now; that is rare. maybe the sulfur remedy did something. nothing is as obvious as the early days in october when i noticed major changes, major aggravations. i had these profound emotional experiences that were buried deep inside of me come forth. i wish i knew if the high potency dose was the reason for this.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

my medical doctor was so impressed with homeopathic treatment that his office hired one. the only problem is that he also practices acupuncture and chinese herbal medicine and wanted to do acupuncture on me instead. like anything -- it is all a business. the acupuncture generates more money.anyway, i decided that i would be more comfortable with a homeopath who only does homeopathy instead of spreading himself thin so i switched to one who has almost 20 years experience.i analyze things to death also. i remember back in august i was at the doctor's office holding the card of the homeopath in my hand -- i was thinking to myself, "this is unbelievable, it will never solve MY problems". early october rolled around and i was at the same doctor's office and seesawed back and forth but then finally just pulled the trigger.i am almost embarrassed talking about it but it was much more powerful than i ever imagined. within a few days i no longer felt sick throughout the day and my chronic irritability disappeared. --even bonniei has noticed the change in me.--but from there it was a bit of a roller coaster. for me it has not been the easiest experience and to this very day i still have my fingers crossed. i want all of my problems solved not just some of them. right now i am mildly impressed -- my sinuses have been clear for several days now; that is rare. maybe the sulfur remedy did something. nothing is as obvious as the early days in october when i noticed major changes, major aggravations. i had these profound emotional experiences that were buried deep inside of me come forth. i wish i knew if the high potency dose was the reason for this.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

C. N. Shealy, MD, R.P. Thomlinson, V. Borgmeyer,Osteoarthritic Pain: A Comparison of Homeopathy and AcetaminophenAmerican Journal of Pain Management, 1998;8:89-91A double-blinded study to document the relative efficacy of homeopathic remedies in comparison to acetaminophen for the treatment of pain associated with osteoarthritis (OA) among 65 patients. An IRB approved protocol. Results of the study documented better pain relief in the homeopathic group (55% achieved measured relief from homeopathy as compared to 38% from acetaminophen); however, the superiority of this treatment, in comparison with the acetaminophen group, did not reach statistical significance (oh well! ). The investigators conclude that homeopathic treatments for pain in OA patients appear to be safe and at least as effective as acetaminophen, and are without its potential adverse effects including compromise to both liver and kidney function. Many of the patients asked to continue with the homeopathic treatment.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

C. N. Shealy, MD, R.P. Thomlinson, V. Borgmeyer,Osteoarthritic Pain: A Comparison of Homeopathy and AcetaminophenAmerican Journal of Pain Management, 1998;8:89-91A double-blinded study to document the relative efficacy of homeopathic remedies in comparison to acetaminophen for the treatment of pain associated with osteoarthritis (OA) among 65 patients. An IRB approved protocol. Results of the study documented better pain relief in the homeopathic group (55% achieved measured relief from homeopathy as compared to 38% from acetaminophen); however, the superiority of this treatment, in comparison with the acetaminophen group, did not reach statistical significance (oh well! ). The investigators conclude that homeopathic treatments for pain in OA patients appear to be safe and at least as effective as acetaminophen, and are without its potential adverse effects including compromise to both liver and kidney function. Many of the patients asked to continue with the homeopathic treatment.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

Assuming this study actually exists, the only thing it says is that some people get better spontaneously.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

Assuming this study actually exists, the only thing it says is that some people get better spontaneously.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

K.H. Friese, S. Kruse, H. Moeller Acute Otitis Media in Children: A Comparison of Conventional and Homeopathic Treatment Biomedical Therapy, 60,4,1997:113-116 (Originally published in German in Hals-Nasen-Ohren (Head, Nose, and Otolyngarology, August, 1996:462-66). This study of 131 children allowed parents to choose homeopathic or conventional medical care from their ear, nose, and throat doctor. 103 children underwent homeopathic treatment, while 28 underwent conventional care. They found that the total recurrences of the homeopathic treated group was .41 per patient, while the antibiotic treatment group was .70 per patient. Of the "homeopathic" children who did have another earache, 29.3% had a maximum of three recurrences, while 43.5% of the "antibiotic" children had a maximum of six recurrences.M. Weiser, W. Strosser, P. Klein, Homeopathic vs. Conventional Treatment of Vertigo: A Randomized Double-Blind Controlled Clinical Study Archives of Otolaryngology--Head and Neck Surgery, August, 1998, 124:879-885. This was a study with 119 subjects with various types of vertigo, half of whom were given a homeopathic medicine (a combination of four homeopathic medicines) and half were given a leading conventional drug in Europe for vertigo, betahistine hydrochloride. The homeopathic medicines were found to be similarly effective and significantly safer than the conventional control. In Italy, 7,500 physicians prescribe homeopathic remedies. Training is offered in the major cities (Bologna, Milan, Rome, Turin, Florence, Venice, etc.).In Belgium, there are some 2,000 prescribers of homeopathic remedies.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

K.H. Friese, S. Kruse, H. Moeller Acute Otitis Media in Children: A Comparison of Conventional and Homeopathic Treatment Biomedical Therapy, 60,4,1997:113-116 (Originally published in German in Hals-Nasen-Ohren (Head, Nose, and Otolyngarology, August, 1996:462-66). This study of 131 children allowed parents to choose homeopathic or conventional medical care from their ear, nose, and throat doctor. 103 children underwent homeopathic treatment, while 28 underwent conventional care. They found that the total recurrences of the homeopathic treated group was .41 per patient, while the antibiotic treatment group was .70 per patient. Of the "homeopathic" children who did have another earache, 29.3% had a maximum of three recurrences, while 43.5% of the "antibiotic" children had a maximum of six recurrences.M. Weiser, W. Strosser, P. Klein, Homeopathic vs. Conventional Treatment of Vertigo: A Randomized Double-Blind Controlled Clinical Study Archives of Otolaryngology--Head and Neck Surgery, August, 1998, 124:879-885. This was a study with 119 subjects with various types of vertigo, half of whom were given a homeopathic medicine (a combination of four homeopathic medicines) and half were given a leading conventional drug in Europe for vertigo, betahistine hydrochloride. The homeopathic medicines were found to be similarly effective and significantly safer than the conventional control. In Italy, 7,500 physicians prescribe homeopathic remedies. Training is offered in the major cities (Bologna, Milan, Rome, Turin, Florence, Venice, etc.).In Belgium, there are some 2,000 prescribers of homeopathic remedies.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

quote ----- "Assuming this study actually exists, the only thing it says is that some people get better spontaneously"it says a lot more than that. it says that for every 100 people 55 do well on homeoapthy. for every 100 people 38 do well with tylenol.seems to make sense that people should try homeopathy and see what happens.it could and should be the medicine of the future. eventually our govt will get seriously involved before the allopathic way bankrupts this country.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

quote ----- "Assuming this study actually exists, the only thing it says is that some people get better spontaneously"it says a lot more than that. it says that for every 100 people 55 do well on homeoapthy. for every 100 people 38 do well with tylenol.seems to make sense that people should try homeopathy and see what happens.it could and should be the medicine of the future. eventually our govt will get seriously involved before the allopathic way bankrupts this country.


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## crankypants (Aug 25, 2002)

Not for nothing, I got the runs immediately after reading Flux's post here...


> quote:Assuming this study actually exists, the only thing it says is that some people get better spontaneously.


lek has already commented on the absurdity of the statement after the comma. Let's see if we can get a take-home message from the snide remark preceding the comma. I'm departing from my usual policy of nonresponse because I don't think that remark should be allowed to stand.--POSSIBLE IMPLICATION #1: The citation is phony; the article was never published.No, the American Journal of Pain Management is not an Index Medicus/Pub Med journal. No, you can't access its Web site currently (dead link at the American Academy of Pain Management Web site (here). It may no longer be active; the financial hardships of medical publishing have worsened lately.However, if you search on "American Journal of Pain Management" and require the terms "homeopathy" and "acetaminophen," you will find about 15 different Web sites that cite this article, including the National Center for Homeopathy, Chiroweb, and the British Homeopathic Library. That would be quite a conspiracy...--POSSIBLE IMPLICATION #2: The authors wrote a fictional account of a study; they never actually conducted it.Even more of a stretch. But you've been complimented on your imagination, Flux (with good reason), so perhaps you can spin a motive for that crime.--POSSIBLE IMPLICATION #3: Flux didn't actually attempt to verify the existence of the article, merely assumed the poster got something wrong, since other than him, everyone on this board (most especially those with an interest in unorthodox healing methods) is a gullible nitwit.Am I getting warm?--POSSIBLE IMPLICATION #4: lek made it up because she is the Devil.Smell smoke yet?Why don't you question the existence of every research report cited on this board, Flux? Never mind, I think I know the answer.P.S. Give the childish graphics a rest, will you? They slow down my machine and irritate my gut...


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## crankypants (Aug 25, 2002)

Not for nothing, I got the runs immediately after reading Flux's post here...


> quote:Assuming this study actually exists, the only thing it says is that some people get better spontaneously.


lek has already commented on the absurdity of the statement after the comma. Let's see if we can get a take-home message from the snide remark preceding the comma. I'm departing from my usual policy of nonresponse because I don't think that remark should be allowed to stand.--POSSIBLE IMPLICATION #1: The citation is phony; the article was never published.No, the American Journal of Pain Management is not an Index Medicus/Pub Med journal. No, you can't access its Web site currently (dead link at the American Academy of Pain Management Web site (here). It may no longer be active; the financial hardships of medical publishing have worsened lately.However, if you search on "American Journal of Pain Management" and require the terms "homeopathy" and "acetaminophen," you will find about 15 different Web sites that cite this article, including the National Center for Homeopathy, Chiroweb, and the British Homeopathic Library. That would be quite a conspiracy...--POSSIBLE IMPLICATION #2: The authors wrote a fictional account of a study; they never actually conducted it.Even more of a stretch. But you've been complimented on your imagination, Flux (with good reason), so perhaps you can spin a motive for that crime.--POSSIBLE IMPLICATION #3: Flux didn't actually attempt to verify the existence of the article, merely assumed the poster got something wrong, since other than him, everyone on this board (most especially those with an interest in unorthodox healing methods) is a gullible nitwit.Am I getting warm?--POSSIBLE IMPLICATION #4: lek made it up because she is the Devil.Smell smoke yet?Why don't you question the existence of every research report cited on this board, Flux? Never mind, I think I know the answer.P.S. Give the childish graphics a rest, will you? They slow down my machine and irritate my gut...


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## crankypants (Aug 25, 2002)

*British Homeopathic Library's list of recent trials* Some folks may be interested in looking over this summary list of studies on homeopathic treatments, although unfortunately many of the journals will not be accessible to most of us in Canada and the States: Recent Trials References


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## crankypants (Aug 25, 2002)

*British Homeopathic Library's list of recent trials* Some folks may be interested in looking over this summary list of studies on homeopathic treatments, although unfortunately many of the journals will not be accessible to most of us in Canada and the States: Recent Trials References


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## Linda C (Aug 29, 2001)

Hi everyone,There's a good article about homeopathy in the April issue of Psychology Today magazine. Check it out if you have a chance. Some very good info.Flux - if I were you, I wouldn't bother reading the article. After all, it's all false anyway. There are some pretty pictures in the magazine that you might like to look at, though. I know how much you like pictures...L


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## Linda C (Aug 29, 2001)

Hi everyone,There's a good article about homeopathy in the April issue of Psychology Today magazine. Check it out if you have a chance. Some very good info.Flux - if I were you, I wouldn't bother reading the article. After all, it's all false anyway. There are some pretty pictures in the magazine that you might like to look at, though. I know how much you like pictures...L


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

linda & cp,something positive has happened to me. i think it was the same remedy that you responded to -- the lycopodium. --but i think the sulphur remedy was equally important.things are not perfect by any means but something has changed in me. i first noticed a difference about the 3rd day into the daily lycopodium that i was taking, but then it started to come and go.i think i am about 3 weeks into the change. that corresponds to just after the sulphur remedy. if this was placebo i would have responded to the nux vomica dose but my IBS was untouched by that remedy.two days ago i challenged myself with tomatoes and i had trouble but in days past i would have really suffered. i also ate leafy greens yesterday and they did not end up in the toilet 3 hours later like usual.linda keep us informed if you have any luck with a new remedy.i'm looking forward to reading the article.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

linda & cp,something positive has happened to me. i think it was the same remedy that you responded to -- the lycopodium. --but i think the sulphur remedy was equally important.things are not perfect by any means but something has changed in me. i first noticed a difference about the 3rd day into the daily lycopodium that i was taking, but then it started to come and go.i think i am about 3 weeks into the change. that corresponds to just after the sulphur remedy. if this was placebo i would have responded to the nux vomica dose but my IBS was untouched by that remedy.two days ago i challenged myself with tomatoes and i had trouble but in days past i would have really suffered. i also ate leafy greens yesterday and they did not end up in the toilet 3 hours later like usual.linda keep us informed if you have any luck with a new remedy.i'm looking forward to reading the article.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...3&dopt=Abstract Homeopathic vs conventional treatment of vertigo: a randomized double-blind controlled clinical study.Weiser M, Strosser W, Klein P.OBJECTIVE: To compare the efficacy and safety of a homeopathic remedy (Vertigoheel, Heel Inc, Albuquerque, NM) vs betahistine hydrochloride (active control) in the treatment of patients with vertigo of various origins in a confirmative equivalence trial. DESIGN: Randomized (1:1) double-blind controlled clinical trial. SETTING: Fifteen study centers (general practice) in Germany between November 1995 and November 1996. SUBJECTS: A total of 119 patients with vertigo of various origins CONCLUSIONS: Concerning the main efficacy variable, therapeutic equivalence between the homeopathic remedy and betahistine could be shown with statistical significance (confirmative analysis). Both remedies reduced the frequency, duration, and intensity of vertigo attacks during a 6-week treatment period. Also, vertigo-specific complaints were significantly reduced in both treatment groups.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...3&dopt=Abstract Homeopathic vs conventional treatment of vertigo: a randomized double-blind controlled clinical study.Weiser M, Strosser W, Klein P.OBJECTIVE: To compare the efficacy and safety of a homeopathic remedy (Vertigoheel, Heel Inc, Albuquerque, NM) vs betahistine hydrochloride (active control) in the treatment of patients with vertigo of various origins in a confirmative equivalence trial. DESIGN: Randomized (1:1) double-blind controlled clinical trial. SETTING: Fifteen study centers (general practice) in Germany between November 1995 and November 1996. SUBJECTS: A total of 119 patients with vertigo of various origins CONCLUSIONS: Concerning the main efficacy variable, therapeutic equivalence between the homeopathic remedy and betahistine could be shown with statistical significance (confirmative analysis). Both remedies reduced the frequency, duration, and intensity of vertigo attacks during a 6-week treatment period. Also, vertigo-specific complaints were significantly reduced in both treatment groups.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:There's a good article about homeopathy in the April issue of Psychology Today magazine.


Are you sure it wasn't this journal that you read?


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:There's a good article about homeopathy in the April issue of Psychology Today magazine.


Are you sure it wasn't this journal that you read?


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## Jare (Aug 17, 2002)

I would like to share my experience with homeopathy. I have IBS since 1991 and have been a loperamide "addict" for years until I met this doctor who, after finishing his classical medicine studies, studied homeopathy. I would like to point out that according to him the remedies are not specific to one disease but specific ro one person, iow sulfur might help one person but have no effect at all on another person.To determine the remedy he will start with a long interview in which he will try to narrow down the number of possible remedies according to different conditions ( ao the symptoms but also issues that have nothing to do with the symptoms ).After having narrowed down the possible remedies to 10 or so he will proceed with kyneological muscle tests to find the correct one out of these 10.There is always a second remedy added to the first one ' found by muscle tests, to enhance the effect and the durability of the first one.Often symptoms aggravated before they disappeared, but this aggravation is a good sign in homeopathy.For a little more than 3 years he was able to control my IBS thaks to visit at inervals of 6 to 10 weeks. In between the visits, I had no symptoms at all I could live and eat normally. As soon as the symptoms returned, I went to see him.Most common remedies were sulfur, nux vomica, pulsatilla and psorinum... Unfortunately, since about a year, homeopathy has not had any effect any more and IBS is back ....I am trying another alternative cure at this moment( with accupuncture ao )and awaiting the first results.


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## Jare (Aug 17, 2002)

I would like to share my experience with homeopathy. I have IBS since 1991 and have been a loperamide "addict" for years until I met this doctor who, after finishing his classical medicine studies, studied homeopathy. I would like to point out that according to him the remedies are not specific to one disease but specific ro one person, iow sulfur might help one person but have no effect at all on another person.To determine the remedy he will start with a long interview in which he will try to narrow down the number of possible remedies according to different conditions ( ao the symptoms but also issues that have nothing to do with the symptoms ).After having narrowed down the possible remedies to 10 or so he will proceed with kyneological muscle tests to find the correct one out of these 10.There is always a second remedy added to the first one ' found by muscle tests, to enhance the effect and the durability of the first one.Often symptoms aggravated before they disappeared, but this aggravation is a good sign in homeopathy.For a little more than 3 years he was able to control my IBS thaks to visit at inervals of 6 to 10 weeks. In between the visits, I had no symptoms at all I could live and eat normally. As soon as the symptoms returned, I went to see him.Most common remedies were sulfur, nux vomica, pulsatilla and psorinum... Unfortunately, since about a year, homeopathy has not had any effect any more and IBS is back ....I am trying another alternative cure at this moment( with accupuncture ao )and awaiting the first results.


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## Jare (Aug 17, 2002)

Sorry, that should be kynesiological muscle tests


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## Jare (Aug 17, 2002)

Sorry, that should be kynesiological muscle tests


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:that should be kynesiological muscle tests


This is


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:that should be kynesiological muscle tests


This is


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## Jare (Aug 17, 2002)

I'm very sorry, but my experience with homeopathy is not a hoax, it is really what happened .....In support of kel I have to say that homeopathy is a recognised type of medicine in France .What he/she states about possibilities of homeopathic care is equally true. Moreover, governmental social security and health insurance in France covers homeopathic treatments and visits to homeopathic doctors and homeopathic remedies, obtainalble in almost any drugstore or pharmacy as they are called there, will be refunded .....


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## Jare (Aug 17, 2002)

I'm very sorry, but my experience with homeopathy is not a hoax, it is really what happened .....In support of kel I have to say that homeopathy is a recognised type of medicine in France .What he/she states about possibilities of homeopathic care is equally true. Moreover, governmental social security and health insurance in France covers homeopathic treatments and visits to homeopathic doctors and homeopathic remedies, obtainalble in almost any drugstore or pharmacy as they are called there, will be refunded .....


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Great photos album!


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Great photos album!


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## jaydivanji (Mar 9, 2004)

Well, as kel knows , I am also on homoeopathic pills. Whenever I get haemerrhoids, I wail to my pop to treat me. With his almost 20 years experience of self taught knowledge, I always manage to deep six my hemmie. why do they recur? For that blame my diet until the last month. Currently I am taking the following(started on feb 14):-1)Kali phos daily 4 pills at bedtime2)Sulphur , Nux Vomica once a fortnight 4 pills morning & eve. resp.3)Anacardium once a month 4 pills morning.Before the current medicines, I took lycopodium. I think that's the one you add a few drops of to a tablespoon of water. It did work well. However my pop stopped it. He said I wouldn't understand why. N'er mind , I trust him completely.My pop says these medicines are suited to my personality. He says that the medicines work all around , I mean , they work on my nature primarily, then the disorder. I swear I am finding myself calmer. Yes some of you may ask , if homoeopathy's that good, how the heck am I still suffering? Well, the answer's that all these years , I was a junk food king. When you feed #### to your body, those medicines will naturally find it difficult to give full benefit. I have immense respect for homoeopathy since it treats the mind first. It concentrates on making the mind stable.Kel , your knowledge of homoeopathy is awesome. I apologise once again for replying very crassly to you in the personal mail. The word "Pakistan" ..oh I shouldn't have reacted like that.


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## jaydivanji (Mar 9, 2004)

Well, as kel knows , I am also on homoeopathic pills. Whenever I get haemerrhoids, I wail to my pop to treat me. With his almost 20 years experience of self taught knowledge, I always manage to deep six my hemmie. why do they recur? For that blame my diet until the last month. Currently I am taking the following(started on feb 14):-1)Kali phos daily 4 pills at bedtime2)Sulphur , Nux Vomica once a fortnight 4 pills morning & eve. resp.3)Anacardium once a month 4 pills morning.Before the current medicines, I took lycopodium. I think that's the one you add a few drops of to a tablespoon of water. It did work well. However my pop stopped it. He said I wouldn't understand why. N'er mind , I trust him completely.My pop says these medicines are suited to my personality. He says that the medicines work all around , I mean , they work on my nature primarily, then the disorder. I swear I am finding myself calmer. Yes some of you may ask , if homoeopathy's that good, how the heck am I still suffering? Well, the answer's that all these years , I was a junk food king. When you feed #### to your body, those medicines will naturally find it difficult to give full benefit. I have immense respect for homoeopathy since it treats the mind first. It concentrates on making the mind stable.Kel , your knowledge of homoeopathy is awesome. I apologise once again for replying very crassly to you in the personal mail. The word "Pakistan" ..oh I shouldn't have reacted like that.


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## jaydivanji (Mar 9, 2004)

My cousin in USA is also a qualified homoepath from India. Unfortunately she's not pracitsing in there. My pop often consults her.My pop has very good contacts with many leading homeopaths. In fact one of them is a convert from allopathy. Initially he too was "Homeopathy? Bah!humbug! " It took a personal experience to change his mind.


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## jaydivanji (Mar 9, 2004)

My cousin in USA is also a qualified homoepath from India. Unfortunately she's not pracitsing in there. My pop often consults her.My pop has very good contacts with many leading homeopaths. In fact one of them is a convert from allopathy. Initially he too was "Homeopathy? Bah!humbug! " It took a personal experience to change his mind.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: Could these numbers just be made up?


No Maurice (flux), these numbers are not made up.32% of French GPs (Medical Doctors) use homeopathic remedies. _ In all countries homeopaths are organised. India has the largest number of homeopaths. The Central Body of Registration has over 125 000 registered homeopathic practitioners on its register. In France 18 000 (32%) of all general practitioners, 700 veterinarians and 2 000 dentists (5%) prescribe homeopathic medicines to their patients. This does however not mean that they consider themselves homeopaths. Some give their patients homeopathic medicines only, but most of them do it to a variable degree. Most of them are not organised in associations for homeopaths._ http://www.homeopathy-ecch.org/survey.html In Germany there are approximately 54,000 medical doctors who use the remedies. almost 30,000 of these doctors specialize in homeopathy.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: Could these numbers just be made up?


No Maurice (flux), these numbers are not made up.32% of French GPs (Medical Doctors) use homeopathic remedies. _ In all countries homeopaths are organised. India has the largest number of homeopaths. The Central Body of Registration has over 125 000 registered homeopathic practitioners on its register. In France 18 000 (32%) of all general practitioners, 700 veterinarians and 2 000 dentists (5%) prescribe homeopathic medicines to their patients. This does however not mean that they consider themselves homeopaths. Some give their patients homeopathic medicines only, but most of them do it to a variable degree. Most of them are not organised in associations for homeopaths._ http://www.homeopathy-ecch.org/survey.html In Germany there are approximately 54,000 medical doctors who use the remedies. almost 30,000 of these doctors specialize in homeopathy.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/...,4152521,00.htm Partial extract from The Guardian 15.03.01"A consortium of four independent research laboratories in France, Italy, Belgium, and Holland, led by Professor M Roberfroid at Belgium's Catholic University of Louvain in Brussels, used a refinement of Benveniste's original experiment that examined another aspect of basophil activation. The team knew that activation of basophil degranulation by aIgE leads to powerful mediators being released, including large amounts of histamine, which sets up a negative feedback cycle that curbs its own release. So the experiment the pan-European team planned involved comparing inhibition of basophil aIgE-induced degranulation with "ghost" dilutions of histamine against control solutions of pure water. In order to make sure no bias was introduced into the experiment by the scientists from the four laboratories involved, they were all "blinded" to the contents of their test solutions. In other words, they did not know whether the solutions they were adding to the basophil-aIgE reaction contained ghost amounts of histamine or just pure water. But that's not all. The ghost histamine solutions and the controls were prepared in three different laboratories that had nothing further to do with the trial. The whole experiment was coordinated by an independent researcher who coded all the solutions and collated the data, but was not involved in any of the testing or analysis of the data from the experiment. Not much room, therefore, for fraud or wishful thinking. So the results when they came were a complete surprise. Three of the four labs involved in the trial reported a statistically significant inhibition of the basophil degranulation reaction by the ghost histamine solutions compared with the controls. The fourth lab gave a result that was almost significant, so the total result over all four labs was positive for the ghost histamine solutions. [...]"Despite my reservations against the science of homoeopathy," says Ennis, " *the results compel me to suspend my disbelief and to start searching for a rational explanation for our findings." * "


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/...,4152521,00.htm Partial extract from The Guardian 15.03.01"A consortium of four independent research laboratories in France, Italy, Belgium, and Holland, led by Professor M Roberfroid at Belgium's Catholic University of Louvain in Brussels, used a refinement of Benveniste's original experiment that examined another aspect of basophil activation. The team knew that activation of basophil degranulation by aIgE leads to powerful mediators being released, including large amounts of histamine, which sets up a negative feedback cycle that curbs its own release. So the experiment the pan-European team planned involved comparing inhibition of basophil aIgE-induced degranulation with "ghost" dilutions of histamine against control solutions of pure water. In order to make sure no bias was introduced into the experiment by the scientists from the four laboratories involved, they were all "blinded" to the contents of their test solutions. In other words, they did not know whether the solutions they were adding to the basophil-aIgE reaction contained ghost amounts of histamine or just pure water. But that's not all. The ghost histamine solutions and the controls were prepared in three different laboratories that had nothing further to do with the trial. The whole experiment was coordinated by an independent researcher who coded all the solutions and collated the data, but was not involved in any of the testing or analysis of the data from the experiment. Not much room, therefore, for fraud or wishful thinking. So the results when they came were a complete surprise. Three of the four labs involved in the trial reported a statistically significant inhibition of the basophil degranulation reaction by the ghost histamine solutions compared with the controls. The fourth lab gave a result that was almost significant, so the total result over all four labs was positive for the ghost histamine solutions. [...]"Despite my reservations against the science of homoeopathy," says Ennis, " *the results compel me to suspend my disbelief and to start searching for a rational explanation for our findings." * "


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Kleijnen 1991British Medical Journal. 107 trials. Criteria-based meta-analysis.  77% are positive  The higher the scientific merit of the study, the more likely it is to show homoeopathy as superior to placebo. The evidence presented in this review would probably be sufficient for establishing homoeopathy as a regular treatment for certain conditions.Boissel 1996Report for European Commission. 15 trials. Very strict inclusion criteria. Meta-analysis; data synthesis by combining the significance levels (p-values) for the primary outcomes from each trial.  Combined p value for the 15 trials was highly significant p=0.0002.  ' There is evidence that homeopathic medicine is more effective than placebo' .  Little evidence of publication bias.  Further high quality studies are needed.Linde 1997Lancet. 89 trials. Meta-analysis; data synthesis by combining the odds ratios.  Combined odds ratio 2.45 (95% CI 2.05, 2.93) in favour of homeopathy.  Odds ratio for 26 best quality studies was 1.66.  No evidence of significant publication bias.  The results are not compatible with the hypothesis that the clinical effects of homeopathy are completely due to placebo.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Kleijnen 1991British Medical Journal. 107 trials. Criteria-based meta-analysis.  77% are positive  The higher the scientific merit of the study, the more likely it is to show homoeopathy as superior to placebo. The evidence presented in this review would probably be sufficient for establishing homoeopathy as a regular treatment for certain conditions.Boissel 1996Report for European Commission. 15 trials. Very strict inclusion criteria. Meta-analysis; data synthesis by combining the significance levels (p-values) for the primary outcomes from each trial.  Combined p value for the 15 trials was highly significant p=0.0002.  ' There is evidence that homeopathic medicine is more effective than placebo' .  Little evidence of publication bias.  Further high quality studies are needed.Linde 1997Lancet. 89 trials. Meta-analysis; data synthesis by combining the odds ratios.  Combined odds ratio 2.45 (95% CI 2.05, 2.93) in favour of homeopathy.  Odds ratio for 26 best quality studies was 1.66.  No evidence of significant publication bias.  The results are not compatible with the hypothesis that the clinical effects of homeopathy are completely due to placebo.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

*In France 18 000 (32%) of all general practitioners* Approximately 100,000 European Medical Doctors know that homeopathy works.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

*In France 18 000 (32%) of all general practitioners* Approximately 100,000 European Medical Doctors know that homeopathy works.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991532 Bizarre chemical discovery gives homeopathic hint 07 November


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991532 Bizarre chemical discovery gives homeopathic hint 07 November


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Hi kel you are still around? I thought you had got completely cured and left the board. How are you doing?I found the article Linda C was referring to from Psychology Today http://www.psychologytoday.com/htdocs/prod...0302-000003.asp Two notable quotes from it are"Placebos have no direct impact on the body. But when given to treat almost any illnessï¿½from colds to serious conditionsï¿½about one-third of recipients report benefits. ï¿½Placebos work as well as they do because of the mindï¿½s ability to affect the body,ï¿½ says Brown University psychiatrist Walter Brown. Many studies have shown that when a doctor offers any treatment, people expect it will help, and that expectation itself can aid healing. Also, through a mind-body mechanism not entirely understood, placebos trigger the release of endorphins, the bodyï¿½s mood-elevating, pain-relieving compounds. ï¿½Improvement in patients receiving homeopathy is simply a placebo effect,ï¿½ Sampson says. "The second quote is along the lines kel has reported of success in Europe"In 1991, Dutch epidemiologists analyzed 105 studies of homeopathic treatment from 1966 to 1990, most from French and German medical journals. Eighty-one studies found patients had benefited from homeopathy, prompting the Dutch researchers to conclude that ï¿½the evidence is to a large extent positive. [It] would probably be sufficient for establishing homeopathy as treatment for certain conditions.ï¿½ A 1997 German analysis of 89 studies agreed that homeopathy is often significantly more beneficial than the use of placebos."


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Hi kel you are still around? I thought you had got completely cured and left the board. How are you doing?I found the article Linda C was referring to from Psychology Today http://www.psychologytoday.com/htdocs/prod...0302-000003.asp Two notable quotes from it are"Placebos have no direct impact on the body. But when given to treat almost any illnessï¿½from colds to serious conditionsï¿½about one-third of recipients report benefits. ï¿½Placebos work as well as they do because of the mindï¿½s ability to affect the body,ï¿½ says Brown University psychiatrist Walter Brown. Many studies have shown that when a doctor offers any treatment, people expect it will help, and that expectation itself can aid healing. Also, through a mind-body mechanism not entirely understood, placebos trigger the release of endorphins, the bodyï¿½s mood-elevating, pain-relieving compounds. ï¿½Improvement in patients receiving homeopathy is simply a placebo effect,ï¿½ Sampson says. "The second quote is along the lines kel has reported of success in Europe"In 1991, Dutch epidemiologists analyzed 105 studies of homeopathic treatment from 1966 to 1990, most from French and German medical journals. Eighty-one studies found patients had benefited from homeopathy, prompting the Dutch researchers to conclude that ï¿½the evidence is to a large extent positive. [It] would probably be sufficient for establishing homeopathy as treatment for certain conditions.ï¿½ A 1997 German analysis of 89 studies agreed that homeopathy is often significantly more beneficial than the use of placebos."


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Approximately 100,000 European Medical Doctors know that homeopathy works.


I'm running out of pictures to describe this stuff


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Approximately 100,000 European Medical Doctors know that homeopathy works.


I'm running out of pictures to describe this stuff


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Dr Madeliene Ennis' groundbreaking 4 university study of homeopathic dilutions is supported by her new 4 university study.APRIL 2004 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=15105967 Histamine dilutions modulate basophil activation.Belon P, Cumps J, Ennis M, Mannaioni PF, Roberfroid M, Sainte-Laudy J, Wiegant FA.Boiron, 20 rue de la Liberation, 69110, Sainte-Foy-Les-Lyon, France.Background:In order to demonstrate that high dilutions of histamine are able to inhibit basophil activation in a reproducible fashion, several techniques were used in different research laboratories. Objective:The aim of the study was to investigate the action of histamine dilutions on basophil activation. Methods:Basophil activation was assessed by alcian blue staining, measurement of histamine release and CD63 expression. Study 1 used a blinded multi-centre approach in 4 centres. Study 2, related to the confirmation of the multi-centre study by flow cytometry, was performed independently in 3 laboratories. Study 3 examined the histamine release (one laboratory) and the activity of H(2) receptor antagonists and structural analogues (two laboratories). Results:High dilutions of histamine (10(-30)-10(-38) M) influence the activation of human basophils measured by alcian blue staining. The degree of inhibition depends on the initial level of anti-IgE induced stimulation, with the greatest inhibitory effects seen at lower levels of stimulation. This multicentre study was confirmed in the three laboratories by using flow cytometry and in one laboratory by histamine release. Inhibition of CD63 expression by histamine high dilutions was reversed by cimetidine (effect observed in two laboratories) and not by ranitidine (one laboratory). Histidine tested in parallel with histamine showed no activity on this model. Conclusions:In 3 different types of experiment, it has been shown that high dilutions of histamine may indeed exert an effect on basophil activity. This activity observed by staining basophils with alcian blue was confirmed by flow cytometry. Inhibition by histamine was reversed by anti-H2 and was not observed with histidine these results being in favour of the specificity of this effect We are however unable to explain our findings and are reporting them to encourage others to investigate this phenomenon.PMID: 15105967 [PubMed - in process]


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Dr Madeliene Ennis' groundbreaking 4 university study of homeopathic dilutions is supported by her new 4 university study.APRIL 2004 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=15105967 Histamine dilutions modulate basophil activation.Belon P, Cumps J, Ennis M, Mannaioni PF, Roberfroid M, Sainte-Laudy J, Wiegant FA.Boiron, 20 rue de la Liberation, 69110, Sainte-Foy-Les-Lyon, France.Background:In order to demonstrate that high dilutions of histamine are able to inhibit basophil activation in a reproducible fashion, several techniques were used in different research laboratories. Objective:The aim of the study was to investigate the action of histamine dilutions on basophil activation. Methods:Basophil activation was assessed by alcian blue staining, measurement of histamine release and CD63 expression. Study 1 used a blinded multi-centre approach in 4 centres. Study 2, related to the confirmation of the multi-centre study by flow cytometry, was performed independently in 3 laboratories. Study 3 examined the histamine release (one laboratory) and the activity of H(2) receptor antagonists and structural analogues (two laboratories). Results:High dilutions of histamine (10(-30)-10(-38) M) influence the activation of human basophils measured by alcian blue staining. The degree of inhibition depends on the initial level of anti-IgE induced stimulation, with the greatest inhibitory effects seen at lower levels of stimulation. This multicentre study was confirmed in the three laboratories by using flow cytometry and in one laboratory by histamine release. Inhibition of CD63 expression by histamine high dilutions was reversed by cimetidine (effect observed in two laboratories) and not by ranitidine (one laboratory). Histidine tested in parallel with histamine showed no activity on this model. Conclusions:In 3 different types of experiment, it has been shown that high dilutions of histamine may indeed exert an effect on basophil activity. This activity observed by staining basophils with alcian blue was confirmed by flow cytometry. Inhibition by histamine was reversed by anti-H2 and was not observed with histidine these results being in favour of the specificity of this effect We are however unable to explain our findings and are reporting them to encourage others to investigate this phenomenon.PMID: 15105967 [PubMed - in process]


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

mind you --- Dr Ennis originaly sought to debunk homeopathy but the results of her initial 3,700 + experiments conducted at leading european universities revealed that homeopathy does indeed work.once again she states that the results of the study are UNEXPLAINABLE.the simplest explanation is that homeopathy does indeed work just as 100,000 European MDs already knew --same for millions of satisfied patients.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

mind you --- Dr Ennis originaly sought to debunk homeopathy but the results of her initial 3,700 + experiments conducted at leading european universities revealed that homeopathy does indeed work.once again she states that the results of the study are UNEXPLAINABLE.the simplest explanation is that homeopathy does indeed work just as 100,000 European MDs already knew --same for millions of satisfied patients.


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Maybe homeopatic products appears to be working only because all the others meds make us worst.So when you drink "water" you think that works.Sorry but Homeopathy have sucked my patience and money sometimes.Anyway,how a drop in a Olympic pool can do something?Apparently most of the bottle are so diluted even more.


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Maybe homeopatic products appears to be working only because all the others meds make us worst.So when you drink "water" you think that works.Sorry but Homeopathy have sucked my patience and money sometimes.Anyway,how a drop in a Olympic pool can do something?Apparently most of the bottle are so diluted even more.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

----"Hi kel you are still around? I thought you had got completely cured and left the board. How are you doing?"hello bonniei,yes, i pop in once in a while. i am still very curious about calid, jhouston, arnie, daisy, gret and all the rest.plus there is no guarantee that i will stay in remission.homeopathy really is amazing. i still have a few problems with my brain. i guess it is like the homeopaths have told me in the beginning that it is a long process for long time sufferers.i am very impressed with garywest's recovery. i hope it holds out. there are no guarantees on any of this.so far the sulphur remedy seems to be the key remedy for my IBS. the problem is that it has given me a rash (not a big deal). the lycopodium seems to be best for my mental outlook and the nux vomica wiped out the irritability and the nausea.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

----"Hi kel you are still around? I thought you had got completely cured and left the board. How are you doing?"hello bonniei,yes, i pop in once in a while. i am still very curious about calid, jhouston, arnie, daisy, gret and all the rest.plus there is no guarantee that i will stay in remission.homeopathy really is amazing. i still have a few problems with my brain. i guess it is like the homeopaths have told me in the beginning that it is a long process for long time sufferers.i am very impressed with garywest's recovery. i hope it holds out. there are no guarantees on any of this.so far the sulphur remedy seems to be the key remedy for my IBS. the problem is that it has given me a rash (not a big deal). the lycopodium seems to be best for my mental outlook and the nux vomica wiped out the irritability and the nausea.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

oh too bad that you have developed a rash, kel. That was one thing about homeopathy that i had noticed and had forgotten- it led to side effects for which more meds had to be prescribed.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

oh too bad that you have developed a rash, kel. That was one thing about homeopathy that i had noticed and had forgotten- it led to side effects for which more meds had to be prescribed.


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## meribaibs (Jan 18, 2004)

Kel, has Dr. Dahlman's protocol worked for you? You're still extolling the benefits of Ibsacol, along with other homeopathic remedies, and I'm happy that they've worked for you, but you've made no mention of the good doctor---unless I missed a thread somewhere along the line. We're all rooting for you here, but the reasons for your remission aren't clear. I thought you were supposed to stop all products while you were under his program. I'm a bit confused.


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## meribaibs (Jan 18, 2004)

Kel, has Dr. Dahlman's protocol worked for you? You're still extolling the benefits of Ibsacol, along with other homeopathic remedies, and I'm happy that they've worked for you, but you've made no mention of the good doctor---unless I missed a thread somewhere along the line. We're all rooting for you here, but the reasons for your remission aren't clear. I thought you were supposed to stop all products while you were under his program. I'm a bit confused.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quoter Ennis originaly sought to debunk homeopathy but the results of her initial 3,700 + experiments conducted at leading european universities revealed that homeopathy does indeed work.


Pretty much anything can work when you are


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quoter Ennis originaly sought to debunk homeopathy but the results of her initial 3,700 + experiments conducted at leading european universities revealed that homeopathy does indeed work.


Pretty much anything can work when you are


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: Kel, has Dr. Dahlman's protocol worked for you? You're still extolling the benefits of Ibsacol, along with other homeopathic remedies, and I'm happy that they've worked for you, but you've made no mention of the good doctor---unless I missed a thread somewhere along the line. We're all rooting for you here, but the reasons for your remission aren't clear. I thought you were supposed to stop all products while you were under his program. I'm a bit confused


hi,things are not perfectly clear to me either (see below). concerning Ibsacol, i quit taking it back in february so that the homeopath could get a better idea of the true picture. the stuff worked really good and made most of 2003 bearable. i could not form stool for the length of my IBS period -- 20 years!!! but Ibsacol turned it all around for me (antibacterial herbs seemed to be a big assist.) the one problem with ibsacol was that it failed to get to the root of my problem. it functioned like most drugs -- i.e. SYMPTOM SUPRESSION -- except it had zero side effects.Dr dahlman's probiotics seems to be responsible for me gaining weight and i guess better digestion. no matter how much i ate i could not gain weight. within 2 weeks of taking the 60 billion human strain bacteria per day i put weight on easily. maybe taking such large quantities every day for a long period of time reaps rewards.the homeopathy is something that i hestitate to talk about because it is a system that is so thoroughly disrespected. It would take hours for me to detail the entire experience so i won't be able to do that. i have a scientific background and i absolutely did not think it could possibly work. i am still shocked by the results.the issue that confuses me is the exact cause of my IBS.I had terrible allergies -- environmental and food. I also am almost 100% positive that there was some type of intestinal dysbiosis. However, i am not convinced by any means that IBS is predominately an issue of dysbiosis. I think it can definitely be involved for the majority of people but i also think that there might be other factors that allow it to develop.these other factors are things that i can only guess at.I decided to sit back and watch the progress of the remaining people before i make a judgement as to whether Dr Dahlman's protocol can wipe out food allergies (food intolerances, false food allergy or whatever name people call it), i also don't know if his program can solve all the issues of IBS such as immune dysfunction. i also think that there could be a brain issue that is responsible for some of our problems. a meditation tape (holosync) definitely seemed to do something positive for my brain, but this came at the very end stages of my remission. http://www.mercola.com/article/neuro_technologies.htm i think his strategy is very sound and therefore i recommend it but questions remain unanswered for me.jhouston is probably going to take longer to come around then the rest of us -- if she comes around (praying she does). she has taken a fair amount of antibiotics and for some reason or another is showing no beneficial bacteria. i suspect she is in a very weakened state (based on her food allergy descriptions) and that can take a while to bounce back from.if she does not come around then i think she should try some type of energy medicine -- acupuncture or homeopathy. that is my opinion and i would expect people to think the same as i used to think about these 2 treatments -- worthless. last september my MD recommended that i try it and i am glad i did. i think that the whole experiment is fascinating and it is an absolute disgrace that ERIC tried to destroy it.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: Kel, has Dr. Dahlman's protocol worked for you? You're still extolling the benefits of Ibsacol, along with other homeopathic remedies, and I'm happy that they've worked for you, but you've made no mention of the good doctor---unless I missed a thread somewhere along the line. We're all rooting for you here, but the reasons for your remission aren't clear. I thought you were supposed to stop all products while you were under his program. I'm a bit confused


hi,things are not perfectly clear to me either (see below). concerning Ibsacol, i quit taking it back in february so that the homeopath could get a better idea of the true picture. the stuff worked really good and made most of 2003 bearable. i could not form stool for the length of my IBS period -- 20 years!!! but Ibsacol turned it all around for me (antibacterial herbs seemed to be a big assist.) the one problem with ibsacol was that it failed to get to the root of my problem. it functioned like most drugs -- i.e. SYMPTOM SUPRESSION -- except it had zero side effects.Dr dahlman's probiotics seems to be responsible for me gaining weight and i guess better digestion. no matter how much i ate i could not gain weight. within 2 weeks of taking the 60 billion human strain bacteria per day i put weight on easily. maybe taking such large quantities every day for a long period of time reaps rewards.the homeopathy is something that i hestitate to talk about because it is a system that is so thoroughly disrespected. It would take hours for me to detail the entire experience so i won't be able to do that. i have a scientific background and i absolutely did not think it could possibly work. i am still shocked by the results.the issue that confuses me is the exact cause of my IBS.I had terrible allergies -- environmental and food. I also am almost 100% positive that there was some type of intestinal dysbiosis. However, i am not convinced by any means that IBS is predominately an issue of dysbiosis. I think it can definitely be involved for the majority of people but i also think that there might be other factors that allow it to develop.these other factors are things that i can only guess at.I decided to sit back and watch the progress of the remaining people before i make a judgement as to whether Dr Dahlman's protocol can wipe out food allergies (food intolerances, false food allergy or whatever name people call it), i also don't know if his program can solve all the issues of IBS such as immune dysfunction. i also think that there could be a brain issue that is responsible for some of our problems. a meditation tape (holosync) definitely seemed to do something positive for my brain, but this came at the very end stages of my remission. http://www.mercola.com/article/neuro_technologies.htm i think his strategy is very sound and therefore i recommend it but questions remain unanswered for me.jhouston is probably going to take longer to come around then the rest of us -- if she comes around (praying she does). she has taken a fair amount of antibiotics and for some reason or another is showing no beneficial bacteria. i suspect she is in a very weakened state (based on her food allergy descriptions) and that can take a while to bounce back from.if she does not come around then i think she should try some type of energy medicine -- acupuncture or homeopathy. that is my opinion and i would expect people to think the same as i used to think about these 2 treatments -- worthless. last september my MD recommended that i try it and i am glad i did. i think that the whole experiment is fascinating and it is an absolute disgrace that ERIC tried to destroy it.


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## meribaibs (Jan 18, 2004)

Thanks, Kel. I appreciate your very thorough reply. I am aware of your condition from having read earlier posts. I'm glad you're doing well. I don't believe I have any food intolerances or immune disorders, so I'm not too worried about not getting well as far as that goes. I'd like to try the probiotics that Dr. Dahlman uses. Mine have shown a 30% (or so) reduction in flatulence and bloating, and I want to see if this level can be decreased even more with a better strain or combination of bacteria. I won't comment on the issue of homeopathy, hypnosis, or acupucture. Your guess is as good as mine. If there's something out there that's doing people some good, then I don't see what's wrong with it.


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## meribaibs (Jan 18, 2004)

Thanks, Kel. I appreciate your very thorough reply. I am aware of your condition from having read earlier posts. I'm glad you're doing well. I don't believe I have any food intolerances or immune disorders, so I'm not too worried about not getting well as far as that goes. I'd like to try the probiotics that Dr. Dahlman uses. Mine have shown a 30% (or so) reduction in flatulence and bloating, and I want to see if this level can be decreased even more with a better strain or combination of bacteria. I won't comment on the issue of homeopathy, hypnosis, or acupucture. Your guess is as good as mine. If there's something out there that's doing people some good, then I don't see what's wrong with it.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Milgrom LR.Department of Chemistry, Imperial College of Science, Technology and Medicine, South Kensington, London, UK. l.milgrom###imperial.ac.ukThe possibility of classifying and unifying some of the recent entanglement models for homeopathy is discussed. Unification involves combining the previous GHZ/WQT-based entanglement model, itself a fusion of Greenberger-Horne-Zeilinger (GHZ) three-particle entanglement and a generalised version of quantum theory, called Weak Quantum Theory (WQT), with Walach's semiotic model involving double entanglement. PMID: 14960101 [PubMed - in process]


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Milgrom LR.Department of Chemistry, Imperial College of Science, Technology and Medicine, South Kensington, London, UK. l.milgrom###imperial.ac.ukThe possibility of classifying and unifying some of the recent entanglement models for homeopathy is discussed. Unification involves combining the previous GHZ/WQT-based entanglement model, itself a fusion of Greenberger-Horne-Zeilinger (GHZ) three-particle entanglement and a generalised version of quantum theory, called Weak Quantum Theory (WQT), with Walach's semiotic model involving double entanglement. PMID: 14960101 [PubMed - in process]


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Homeopathy and structure of water: a physical model][Article in German]Kratky KW.Institut fur Experimentalphysik der Universitat Wien, Vienna, Austria. karl.kratzky###univie.ac.atBACKGROUND: Formerly, the author has suggested a relatively simple water model. There, the dynamical structure of a typical water cluster was investigated, being represented by the movement of a ball in an abstract energy landscape. OBJECTIVE: Now the above-mentioned model is investigated in more detail to answer the following question: Are essential claims of homeopathy concerning potentiation (diluting and shaking) in agreement with science? METHODS: Equations of motion are employed that represent vibrations of clusters. For the computer experiments, the formalism of Nose-Hoover is used, the surrounding water being interpreted as a heat bath. Diluting corresponds to a shift of the energy landscape towards the pure solvent (water), shaking is accompanied by an increase of the contact to the heat bath. RESULTS: There is a tendency of the ball to be caught in local valleys of the energy landscape (metastable states) if the temperature is not too high and if the liquid is not shaken. Thus, even for a given landscape there are a variety of structures being durable for some time. CONCLUSIONS: The computer experiments suggest that the repeated process of potentiation eventually results in a specific metastable state of the pure solvent. The initial substance helps to obtain this goal, but is no longer necessary at last. Copyright 2004 S. Karger GmbH, FreiburgPMID: 15004445 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] *******************************gee flux, the science is getting better and better at describing how it works.-----------"The initial substance helps to obtain this goal, but is no longer necessary at last. "


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Homeopathy and structure of water: a physical model][Article in German]Kratky KW.Institut fur Experimentalphysik der Universitat Wien, Vienna, Austria. karl.kratzky###univie.ac.atBACKGROUND: Formerly, the author has suggested a relatively simple water model. There, the dynamical structure of a typical water cluster was investigated, being represented by the movement of a ball in an abstract energy landscape. OBJECTIVE: Now the above-mentioned model is investigated in more detail to answer the following question: Are essential claims of homeopathy concerning potentiation (diluting and shaking) in agreement with science? METHODS: Equations of motion are employed that represent vibrations of clusters. For the computer experiments, the formalism of Nose-Hoover is used, the surrounding water being interpreted as a heat bath. Diluting corresponds to a shift of the energy landscape towards the pure solvent (water), shaking is accompanied by an increase of the contact to the heat bath. RESULTS: There is a tendency of the ball to be caught in local valleys of the energy landscape (metastable states) if the temperature is not too high and if the liquid is not shaken. Thus, even for a given landscape there are a variety of structures being durable for some time. CONCLUSIONS: The computer experiments suggest that the repeated process of potentiation eventually results in a specific metastable state of the pure solvent. The initial substance helps to obtain this goal, but is no longer necessary at last. Copyright 2004 S. Karger GmbH, FreiburgPMID: 15004445 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] *******************************gee flux, the science is getting better and better at describing how it works.-----------"The initial substance helps to obtain this goal, but is no longer necessary at last. "


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## meribaibs (Jan 18, 2004)

Sometimes it is difficult to extricate oneself from entanglements. It is best to go with the flow and hope for quantum leaps!


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## meribaibs (Jan 18, 2004)

Sometimes it is difficult to extricate oneself from entanglements. It is best to go with the flow and hope for quantum leaps!


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## meribaibs (Jan 18, 2004)

You guys are amazing. The stuff you've read and actually understand. It boggles the mind. What an informative site this is, thanks to those in the know.


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## meribaibs (Jan 18, 2004)

You guys are amazing. The stuff you've read and actually understand. It boggles the mind. What an informative site this is, thanks to those in the know.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:The stuff you've read and actually understand. It boggles the mind.


Check out the science fiction section in a bookstore. There is a *lot* more where this came from.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:The stuff you've read and actually understand. It boggles the mind.


Check out the science fiction section in a bookstore. There is a *lot* more where this came from.


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## meribaibs (Jan 18, 2004)

Well, actually, Flux, I hold your input in high regard as well. You are one of the 'you guys' I was referring to. I'm ignorant, so I stay out of debates among the regulars. I just devour everything I read up here, and at the same time, try to remain neutral. The only thing knawing at me right now is the question of gut flora. I'm obsessed with it.


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## meribaibs (Jan 18, 2004)

Well, actually, Flux, I hold your input in high regard as well. You are one of the 'you guys' I was referring to. I'm ignorant, so I stay out of debates among the regulars. I just devour everything I read up here, and at the same time, try to remain neutral. The only thing knawing at me right now is the question of gut flora. I'm obsessed with it.


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## meribaibs (Jan 18, 2004)

To Flux:The probiotics I'm taking have altered something in my gut. I'm trying to figure out what that is. It might unlock a key for the subset of IBSers for whom gut flora may be the problem. I'm not banking on it, but it does raise some interesting questions. For whatever it's worth, I feel less bloated and gassy. Nothing I ever tried before (including homeopathic remedies) made any difference.


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## meribaibs (Jan 18, 2004)

To Flux:The probiotics I'm taking have altered something in my gut. I'm trying to figure out what that is. It might unlock a key for the subset of IBSers for whom gut flora may be the problem. I'm not banking on it, but it does raise some interesting questions. For whatever it's worth, I feel less bloated and gassy. Nothing I ever tried before (including homeopathic remedies) made any difference.


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Kel,i'm happy girl that you are in a safer place.I just can't figure out why the homeopathic sulfur ...does something.If that is diluted one drop in a olympic pool.Do you think your products is so diluted?


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Kel,i'm happy girl that you are in a safer place.I just can't figure out why the homeopathic sulfur ...does something.If that is diluted one drop in a olympic pool.Do you think your products is so diluted?


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

maurice,histamine diluted OUT of EXISTANCE --- this is current research (april 2004), and this is proof that homeopathy does indeed work. (oh okay for the purists out there -- "proof" is never absolute).at the very least, they have a reproducible phenomena with a substance diluted out of existance.. . Inflamm Res. 2004 Apr;53(5):181-8. Epub 2004 Apr 21. Related Articles, Links Histamine dilutions modulate basophil activation.Belon P, Cumps J, Ennis M, Mannaioni PF, Roberfroid M, Sainte-Laudy J, Wiegant FA.Boiron, 20 rue de la Liberation, 69110, Sainte-Foy-Les-Lyon, France.Background:In order to demonstrate that high dilutions of histamine are able to inhibit basophil activation in a reproducible fashion, several techniques were used in different research laboratories. Objective:The aim of the study was to investigate the action of histamine dilutions on basophil activation. Methods:Basophil activation was assessed by alcian blue staining, measurement of histamine release and CD63 expression. Study 1 used a blinded multi-centre approach in 4 centres. Study 2, related to the confirmation of the multi-centre study by flow cytometry, was performed independently in 3 laboratories. Study 3 examined the histamine release (one laboratory) and the activity of H(2) receptor antagonists and structural analogues (two laboratories). Results:High dilutions of histamine (10(-30)-10(-38) M) influence the activation of human basophils measured by alcian blue staining. The degree of inhibition depends on the initial level of anti-IgE induced stimulation, with the greatest inhibitory effects seen at lower levels of stimulation. This multicentre study was confirmed in the three laboratories by using flow cytometry and in one laboratory by histamine release. Inhibition of CD63 expression by histamine high dilutions was reversed by cimetidine (effect observed in two laboratories) and not by ranitidine (one laboratory). Histidine tested in parallel with histamine showed no activity on this model. Conclusions:In 3 different types of experiment, it has been shown that high dilutions of histamine may indeed exert an effect on basophil activity. This activity observed by staining basophils with alcian blue was confirmed by flow cytometry. Inhibition by histamine was reversed by anti-H2 and was not observed with histidine these results being in favour of the specificity of this effect We are however unable to explain our findings and are reporting them to encourage others to investigate this phenomenon.PMID: 15105967 [PubMed - in process]


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

maurice,histamine diluted OUT of EXISTANCE --- this is current research (april 2004), and this is proof that homeopathy does indeed work. (oh okay for the purists out there -- "proof" is never absolute).at the very least, they have a reproducible phenomena with a substance diluted out of existance.. . Inflamm Res. 2004 Apr;53(5):181-8. Epub 2004 Apr 21. Related Articles, Links Histamine dilutions modulate basophil activation.Belon P, Cumps J, Ennis M, Mannaioni PF, Roberfroid M, Sainte-Laudy J, Wiegant FA.Boiron, 20 rue de la Liberation, 69110, Sainte-Foy-Les-Lyon, France.Background:In order to demonstrate that high dilutions of histamine are able to inhibit basophil activation in a reproducible fashion, several techniques were used in different research laboratories. Objective:The aim of the study was to investigate the action of histamine dilutions on basophil activation. Methods:Basophil activation was assessed by alcian blue staining, measurement of histamine release and CD63 expression. Study 1 used a blinded multi-centre approach in 4 centres. Study 2, related to the confirmation of the multi-centre study by flow cytometry, was performed independently in 3 laboratories. Study 3 examined the histamine release (one laboratory) and the activity of H(2) receptor antagonists and structural analogues (two laboratories). Results:High dilutions of histamine (10(-30)-10(-38) M) influence the activation of human basophils measured by alcian blue staining. The degree of inhibition depends on the initial level of anti-IgE induced stimulation, with the greatest inhibitory effects seen at lower levels of stimulation. This multicentre study was confirmed in the three laboratories by using flow cytometry and in one laboratory by histamine release. Inhibition of CD63 expression by histamine high dilutions was reversed by cimetidine (effect observed in two laboratories) and not by ranitidine (one laboratory). Histidine tested in parallel with histamine showed no activity on this model. Conclusions:In 3 different types of experiment, it has been shown that high dilutions of histamine may indeed exert an effect on basophil activity. This activity observed by staining basophils with alcian blue was confirmed by flow cytometry. Inhibition by histamine was reversed by anti-H2 and was not observed with histidine these results being in favour of the specificity of this effect We are however unable to explain our findings and are reporting them to encourage others to investigate this phenomenon.PMID: 15105967 [PubMed - in process]


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

below is the earlier research by the respected researcher Dr Ennis that backed up the benveniste claim.once again she set out to debunk homeopathy and had the tables turned on her.now she understands why 100,000 european doctors do what they do. ----------because it works!!!!***************************************** http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/...,4152521,00.htm Partial extract from The Guardian 15.03.01"A consortium of four independent research laboratories in France, Italy, Belgium, and Holland, led by Professor M Roberfroid at Belgium's Catholic University of Louvain in Brussels, used a refinement of Benveniste's original experiment that examined another aspect of basophil activation. The team knew that activation of basophil degranulation by aIgE leads to powerful mediators being released, including large amounts of histamine, which sets up a negative feedback cycle that curbs its own release. So the experiment the pan-European team planned involved comparing inhibition of basophil aIgE-induced degranulation with "ghost" dilutions of histamine against control solutions of pure water. In order to make sure no bias was introduced into the experiment by the scientists from the four laboratories involved, they were all "blinded" to the contents of their test solutions. In other words, they did not know whether the solutions they were adding to the basophil-aIgE reaction contained ghost amounts of histamine or just pure water. But that's not all. The ghost histamine solutions and the controls were prepared in three different laboratories that had nothing further to do with the trial. The whole experiment was coordinated by an independent researcher who coded all the solutions and collated the data, but was not involved in any of the testing or analysis of the data from the experiment. Not much room, therefore, for fraud or wishful thinking. So the results when they came were a complete surprise. Three of the four labs involved in the trial reported a statistically significant inhibition of the basophil degranulation reaction by the ghost histamine solutions compared with the controls. The fourth lab gave a result that was almost significant, so the total result over all four labs was positive for the ghost histamine solutions. [...]"Despite my reservations against the science of homoeopathy," says Ennis, " the results compel me to suspend my disbelief and to start searching for a rational explanation for our findings." "


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

below is the earlier research by the respected researcher Dr Ennis that backed up the benveniste claim.once again she set out to debunk homeopathy and had the tables turned on her.now she understands why 100,000 european doctors do what they do. ----------because it works!!!!***************************************** http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/...,4152521,00.htm Partial extract from The Guardian 15.03.01"A consortium of four independent research laboratories in France, Italy, Belgium, and Holland, led by Professor M Roberfroid at Belgium's Catholic University of Louvain in Brussels, used a refinement of Benveniste's original experiment that examined another aspect of basophil activation. The team knew that activation of basophil degranulation by aIgE leads to powerful mediators being released, including large amounts of histamine, which sets up a negative feedback cycle that curbs its own release. So the experiment the pan-European team planned involved comparing inhibition of basophil aIgE-induced degranulation with "ghost" dilutions of histamine against control solutions of pure water. In order to make sure no bias was introduced into the experiment by the scientists from the four laboratories involved, they were all "blinded" to the contents of their test solutions. In other words, they did not know whether the solutions they were adding to the basophil-aIgE reaction contained ghost amounts of histamine or just pure water. But that's not all. The ghost histamine solutions and the controls were prepared in three different laboratories that had nothing further to do with the trial. The whole experiment was coordinated by an independent researcher who coded all the solutions and collated the data, but was not involved in any of the testing or analysis of the data from the experiment. Not much room, therefore, for fraud or wishful thinking. So the results when they came were a complete surprise. Three of the four labs involved in the trial reported a statistically significant inhibition of the basophil degranulation reaction by the ghost histamine solutions compared with the controls. The fourth lab gave a result that was almost significant, so the total result over all four labs was positive for the ghost histamine solutions. [...]"Despite my reservations against the science of homoeopathy," says Ennis, " the results compel me to suspend my disbelief and to start searching for a rational explanation for our findings." "


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:below is the earlier research by the respected researcher Dr Ennis





> quotence again she set out to debunk homeopathy and had the tables turned on her


Logic? A high school student could easily disprove homeopathy and she can't.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:below is the earlier research by the respected researcher Dr Ennis





> quotence again she set out to debunk homeopathy and had the tables turned on her


Logic? A high school student could easily disprove homeopathy and she can't.


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## roger (Mar 26, 2003)

From: Homeopathy: The Ultimate Fake


> quote: Unimpressive "Research"Since many homeopathic remedies contain no detectable amount of active ingredient, it is impossible to test whether they contain what their label says. Unlike most potent drugs, they have not been proven effective against disease by double-blind clinical testing. In fact, the vast majority of homeopathic products have never even been tested.In 1990, an article in Review of Epidemiology analyzed 40 randomized trials that had compared homeopathic treatment with standard treatment, a placebo, or no treatment. The authors concluded that all but three of the trials had major flaws in their design and that only one of those three had reported a positive result. The authors concluded that there is no evidence that homeopathic treatment has any more value than a placebo [2].In 1994, the journal Pediatrics published an article claiming that homeopathic treatment had been demonstrated to be effective against mild cases of diarrhea among Nicaraguan children [3]. The claim was based on findings that, on certain days, the "treated" group had fewer loose stools than the placebo group. However, Sampson and London noted: (1) the study used an unreliable and unproved diagnostic and therapeutic scheme, (2) there was no safeguard against product adulteration, (3) treatment selection was arbitrary, (4) the data were oddly grouped and contained errors and inconsistencies, (5) the results had questionable clinical significance, and (6) there was no public health significance because the only remedy needed for mild childhood diarrhea is adequate fluid intake to prevent or correct dehydration [4].In 1995, Prescrire International, a French journal that evaluates pharmaceutical products, published a literature review that concluded:As homeopathic treatments are generally used in conditions with variable outcome or showing spontaneous recovery (hence their placebo-responsiveness), these treatments are widely considered to have an effect in some patients. However, despite the large number of comparative trials carried out to date there is no evidence that homeopathy is any more effective than placebo therapy given in identical conditions.In December 1996, a lengthy report was published by the Homoeopathic Medicine Research Group (HMRG), an expert panel convened by the Commission of the European Communities. The HMRG included homeopathic physician-researchers and experts in clinical research, clinical pharmacology, biostatistics, and clinical epidemiology. Its aim was to evaluate published and unpublished reports of controlled trials of homeopathic treatment. After examining 184 reports, the panelists concluded: (1) only 17 were designed and reported well enough to be worth considering; (2) in some of these trials, homeopathic approaches may have exerted a greater effect than a placebo or no treatment; and (3) the number of participants in these 17 trials was too small to draw any conclusions about the effectiveness of homeopathic treatment for any specific condition [5]. Simply put: Most homeopathic research is worthless, and no homeopathic product has been proven effective for any therapeutic purpose. The National Council Against Health Fraud has warned that "the sectarian nature of homeopathy raises serious questions about the trustworthiness of homeopathic researchers." [6]In 1997, a London health authority decided to stop paying for homeopathic treatment after concluding that there was not enough evidence to support its use. The Lambeth, Southwark, and Lewisham Health Authority had been referring more than 500 patients per year to the Royal Homoeopathic Hospital in London. Public health doctors at the authority reviewed the published scientific literature as part of a general move toward purchasing only evidence-based treatments. The group concluded that many of the studies were methodologically flawed and that recent research produced by the Royal Homoeopathic Hospital contained no convincing evidence that homeopathy offered clinical benefit [7].Proponents trumpet the few "positive" studies as proof that "homeopathy works." Even if their results can be consistently reproduced (which seems unlikely), the most that the study of a single remedy for a single disease could prove is that the remedy is effective against that disease. It would not validate homeopathy's basic theories or prove that homeopathic treatment is useful for other diseases.Placebo effects can be powerful, of course, but the potential benefit of relieving symptoms with placebos should be weighed against the harm that can result from relying upon -- and wasting money on -- ineffective products. Spontaneous remission is also a factor in homeopathy's popularity. I believe that most people who credit a homeopathic product for their recovery would have fared equally well without it.Homeopaths are working hard to have their services covered under national health insurance. They claim to provide care that is safer, gentler, "natural," and less expensive than conventional care -- and more concerned with prevention. However, homeopathic treatments prevent nothing, and many homeopathic leaders preach against immunization. Equally bad, a report on the National Center for Homeopathy's 1997 Conference described how a homeopathic physician had suggested using homeopathic products to help prevent and treat coronary artery disease. According to the article, the speaker recommended various 30C and 200C products as alternatives to aspirin or cholesterol-lowering drugs, both of which are proven to reduce the incidence of heart attacks and strokes [8].2. Hill C, Doyon F. Review of randomized trials of homeopathy. Review of Epidemiology 38:139-142, 1990. 3. Jacob J and others. Treatment of childhood diarrhea with homeopathic medicine: a randomized clinical trial in Nicaragua. Pediatrics 93:719-725, 1994. 4. Sampson W, London W. Analysis of homeopathic treatment of childhood diarrhea. Pediatrics 96:961-964, 1995. 5. Homoeopathic Medicine Research Group. Report. Commission of the European Communities, December 1996. 6. NCAHF Position Paper on Homeopathy. Loma Linda, CA.: National Council Against Health Fraud, 1994. 7. Wise, J. Health authority stops buying homoeopathy. British Medical Journal 314:1574, 1997. 8. Hauck KG. Homeopathy and coronary artery disease. Homeopathy Today 17(8):3, 1997.


The recent study posted by kel is no less suspect than any of those cited above. I really doubt the claim that Dr. Ennis set out to debunk hoemopathy. The study was apparently sponsored by Boiron -- one of the largest purveyors of "memory water" in the world. This situation is no better than Novartis sponsoring Zelnorm studies. They both have a vested interest in the _positive_ outcome of the studies and they are both trying to make a buck.I have to admit, though, homeopathy has made me feel much better. While reading the abstract of the 'floating ball' study, I was laughing so hard that I was compeletely unaware of my IBS symptoms.


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## roger (Mar 26, 2003)

From: Homeopathy: The Ultimate Fake


> quote: Unimpressive "Research"Since many homeopathic remedies contain no detectable amount of active ingredient, it is impossible to test whether they contain what their label says. Unlike most potent drugs, they have not been proven effective against disease by double-blind clinical testing. In fact, the vast majority of homeopathic products have never even been tested.In 1990, an article in Review of Epidemiology analyzed 40 randomized trials that had compared homeopathic treatment with standard treatment, a placebo, or no treatment. The authors concluded that all but three of the trials had major flaws in their design and that only one of those three had reported a positive result. The authors concluded that there is no evidence that homeopathic treatment has any more value than a placebo [2].In 1994, the journal Pediatrics published an article claiming that homeopathic treatment had been demonstrated to be effective against mild cases of diarrhea among Nicaraguan children [3]. The claim was based on findings that, on certain days, the "treated" group had fewer loose stools than the placebo group. However, Sampson and London noted: (1) the study used an unreliable and unproved diagnostic and therapeutic scheme, (2) there was no safeguard against product adulteration, (3) treatment selection was arbitrary, (4) the data were oddly grouped and contained errors and inconsistencies, (5) the results had questionable clinical significance, and (6) there was no public health significance because the only remedy needed for mild childhood diarrhea is adequate fluid intake to prevent or correct dehydration [4].In 1995, Prescrire International, a French journal that evaluates pharmaceutical products, published a literature review that concluded:As homeopathic treatments are generally used in conditions with variable outcome or showing spontaneous recovery (hence their placebo-responsiveness), these treatments are widely considered to have an effect in some patients. However, despite the large number of comparative trials carried out to date there is no evidence that homeopathy is any more effective than placebo therapy given in identical conditions.In December 1996, a lengthy report was published by the Homoeopathic Medicine Research Group (HMRG), an expert panel convened by the Commission of the European Communities. The HMRG included homeopathic physician-researchers and experts in clinical research, clinical pharmacology, biostatistics, and clinical epidemiology. Its aim was to evaluate published and unpublished reports of controlled trials of homeopathic treatment. After examining 184 reports, the panelists concluded: (1) only 17 were designed and reported well enough to be worth considering; (2) in some of these trials, homeopathic approaches may have exerted a greater effect than a placebo or no treatment; and (3) the number of participants in these 17 trials was too small to draw any conclusions about the effectiveness of homeopathic treatment for any specific condition [5]. Simply put: Most homeopathic research is worthless, and no homeopathic product has been proven effective for any therapeutic purpose. The National Council Against Health Fraud has warned that "the sectarian nature of homeopathy raises serious questions about the trustworthiness of homeopathic researchers." [6]In 1997, a London health authority decided to stop paying for homeopathic treatment after concluding that there was not enough evidence to support its use. The Lambeth, Southwark, and Lewisham Health Authority had been referring more than 500 patients per year to the Royal Homoeopathic Hospital in London. Public health doctors at the authority reviewed the published scientific literature as part of a general move toward purchasing only evidence-based treatments. The group concluded that many of the studies were methodologically flawed and that recent research produced by the Royal Homoeopathic Hospital contained no convincing evidence that homeopathy offered clinical benefit [7].Proponents trumpet the few "positive" studies as proof that "homeopathy works." Even if their results can be consistently reproduced (which seems unlikely), the most that the study of a single remedy for a single disease could prove is that the remedy is effective against that disease. It would not validate homeopathy's basic theories or prove that homeopathic treatment is useful for other diseases.Placebo effects can be powerful, of course, but the potential benefit of relieving symptoms with placebos should be weighed against the harm that can result from relying upon -- and wasting money on -- ineffective products. Spontaneous remission is also a factor in homeopathy's popularity. I believe that most people who credit a homeopathic product for their recovery would have fared equally well without it.Homeopaths are working hard to have their services covered under national health insurance. They claim to provide care that is safer, gentler, "natural," and less expensive than conventional care -- and more concerned with prevention. However, homeopathic treatments prevent nothing, and many homeopathic leaders preach against immunization. Equally bad, a report on the National Center for Homeopathy's 1997 Conference described how a homeopathic physician had suggested using homeopathic products to help prevent and treat coronary artery disease. According to the article, the speaker recommended various 30C and 200C products as alternatives to aspirin or cholesterol-lowering drugs, both of which are proven to reduce the incidence of heart attacks and strokes [8].2. Hill C, Doyon F. Review of randomized trials of homeopathy. Review of Epidemiology 38:139-142, 1990. 3. Jacob J and others. Treatment of childhood diarrhea with homeopathic medicine: a randomized clinical trial in Nicaragua. Pediatrics 93:719-725, 1994. 4. Sampson W, London W. Analysis of homeopathic treatment of childhood diarrhea. Pediatrics 96:961-964, 1995. 5. Homoeopathic Medicine Research Group. Report. Commission of the European Communities, December 1996. 6. NCAHF Position Paper on Homeopathy. Loma Linda, CA.: National Council Against Health Fraud, 1994. 7. Wise, J. Health authority stops buying homoeopathy. British Medical Journal 314:1574, 1997. 8. Hauck KG. Homeopathy and coronary artery disease. Homeopathy Today 17(8):3, 1997.


The recent study posted by kel is no less suspect than any of those cited above. I really doubt the claim that Dr. Ennis set out to debunk hoemopathy. The study was apparently sponsored by Boiron -- one of the largest purveyors of "memory water" in the world. This situation is no better than Novartis sponsoring Zelnorm studies. They both have a vested interest in the _positive_ outcome of the studies and they are both trying to make a buck.I have to admit, though, homeopathy has made me feel much better. While reading the abstract of the 'floating ball' study, I was laughing so hard that I was compeletely unaware of my IBS symptoms.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

roger,get a life.there are tens of thousands of people in the world who refuse to believe in homeopathy.they gather any and all studies that show it no better than a placebo and parade those around.300 years ago almost every scientist debunked the tale that "stones can fall from the sky". they proved it with their telescopes that there were no stones in the sky.of course there was all kinds of evidence for meteors but hey -- the scietists proved there were none, and all the people who claimed to see them were judged as lunatics.one week before the first powered flight there was a big journal article in a leading science magazine ridiculing the notion of flight. "machines can not fly"roger, you are a moron. read the studies and when you can find the flaws let me know. you are attacking some of the most respected researchers in immunology. right now as i speak i am also on another forum and the SKEPTICS are at a total loss for words with regards to this follow up study.a couple have even backed sharply off their original position.Barrett is nothing but a fraud with an agenda.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

roger,get a life.there are tens of thousands of people in the world who refuse to believe in homeopathy.they gather any and all studies that show it no better than a placebo and parade those around.300 years ago almost every scientist debunked the tale that "stones can fall from the sky". they proved it with their telescopes that there were no stones in the sky.of course there was all kinds of evidence for meteors but hey -- the scietists proved there were none, and all the people who claimed to see them were judged as lunatics.one week before the first powered flight there was a big journal article in a leading science magazine ridiculing the notion of flight. "machines can not fly"roger, you are a moron. read the studies and when you can find the flaws let me know. you are attacking some of the most respected researchers in immunology. right now as i speak i am also on another forum and the SKEPTICS are at a total loss for words with regards to this follow up study.a couple have even backed sharply off their original position.Barrett is nothing but a fraud with an agenda.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

"By means of successive dilutions, extremely dilute solutions can be achieved rather easily. The dilution limit is reached when the volume of solvent is unlikely to contain a single molecule of the solute. Hahnemann could not have known that in his preparations he was, in fact, exceeding the dilution limit. Although he was contemporary with the physicist Amadeo Avogadro (1776-1856), Hahnemann's Organon der Rationellen Heilkunde was published in 1810, one year before Avogadro advanced his famous hypothesis, and many years before other physicists actually determined Avogadro's number. (Avogadro showed that there is a large but finite and specific number of atoms or molecules in a mole of substance, specifically 6.022 x 1023. A mole is the molecular weight of a substance expressed in grams. Thus, a mole of water, H2O, molecular weight 2 + 16 = 18, is 18 grams. So there are 6.022 x 1023 water molecules in 18 grams of water.) Modern day followers of Hahnemann, however, are perfectly aware of Avogadro's number. Nevertheless, they regularly exceed the dilution limit -- often to an astonishing extent. I recently examined the dilutions listed on the labels of dozens of standard homeopathic remedies sold over the counter in health stores, and increasingly in drug stores, as remedies for everything from nervousness to flu. These remedies are normally in the form of lactose tablets on which a single drop of the "diluted" medication has been placed. The "solvent" is usually a water/alcohol mixture. The lowest dilution I found listed on any of these bottles was 6X, but most of the dilutions were 30X or even, in the case of oscillococcinum, an astounding 200C. (Oscillococcinum, which is derived from duck liver, is the standard homeopathic remedy for flu. As we will see, however, its widespread use poses little threat to the duck population.) What do these notations mean? The notation 6X means that the active substance is diluted 1:10 in a water-alcohol mixture and succussed. This procedure (diluting and succussing) is repeated sequentially six times. The concentration of the active substance is then one part in ten raised to the sixth power (106), or one part per million. An analysis of the pills would be expected to find numerous impurities at the parts-per-million level. The notation 30X means the 1:10 dilution, followed by succussion, is repeated thirty times. That results in one part in 1030, or 1 followed by thirty zeroes. I don't know what the name for that number is, but let me put it this way: you would need to take some two billion pills, a total of about a thousand tons of lactose, to expect to get even one molecule of the medication. In other words, the pills contain nothing but lactose and the inevitable impurities. This is literally no-medicine medicine. And what of 200C? That means the active substance is sequentially diluted 1:100 and succussed two hundred times. That would leave you with only one molecule of the active substance to every one hundred to the two hundredth power molecules of solvent, or 1 followed by four hundred zeroes (10400). But the total number of atoms in the entire universe is estimated to be about one googol, which is 1 followed by a mere one hundred zeroes. This is the point at which we are all supposed to realize how ridiculous this is and share a good laugh. But homeopaths don't laugh. They've done the same calculation. And while they agree that not a single molecule of the active substance could remain, they contend it doesn't matter, the water/alcohol mixture somehow remembers that the substance was once there. The process of succussion is presumed to charge the entire volume of the liquid with the same memory. Is there any evidence for such a memory? " http://www.csicop.org/si/9709/park.html


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

"By means of successive dilutions, extremely dilute solutions can be achieved rather easily. The dilution limit is reached when the volume of solvent is unlikely to contain a single molecule of the solute. Hahnemann could not have known that in his preparations he was, in fact, exceeding the dilution limit. Although he was contemporary with the physicist Amadeo Avogadro (1776-1856), Hahnemann's Organon der Rationellen Heilkunde was published in 1810, one year before Avogadro advanced his famous hypothesis, and many years before other physicists actually determined Avogadro's number. (Avogadro showed that there is a large but finite and specific number of atoms or molecules in a mole of substance, specifically 6.022 x 1023. A mole is the molecular weight of a substance expressed in grams. Thus, a mole of water, H2O, molecular weight 2 + 16 = 18, is 18 grams. So there are 6.022 x 1023 water molecules in 18 grams of water.) Modern day followers of Hahnemann, however, are perfectly aware of Avogadro's number. Nevertheless, they regularly exceed the dilution limit -- often to an astonishing extent. I recently examined the dilutions listed on the labels of dozens of standard homeopathic remedies sold over the counter in health stores, and increasingly in drug stores, as remedies for everything from nervousness to flu. These remedies are normally in the form of lactose tablets on which a single drop of the "diluted" medication has been placed. The "solvent" is usually a water/alcohol mixture. The lowest dilution I found listed on any of these bottles was 6X, but most of the dilutions were 30X or even, in the case of oscillococcinum, an astounding 200C. (Oscillococcinum, which is derived from duck liver, is the standard homeopathic remedy for flu. As we will see, however, its widespread use poses little threat to the duck population.) What do these notations mean? The notation 6X means that the active substance is diluted 1:10 in a water-alcohol mixture and succussed. This procedure (diluting and succussing) is repeated sequentially six times. The concentration of the active substance is then one part in ten raised to the sixth power (106), or one part per million. An analysis of the pills would be expected to find numerous impurities at the parts-per-million level. The notation 30X means the 1:10 dilution, followed by succussion, is repeated thirty times. That results in one part in 1030, or 1 followed by thirty zeroes. I don't know what the name for that number is, but let me put it this way: you would need to take some two billion pills, a total of about a thousand tons of lactose, to expect to get even one molecule of the medication. In other words, the pills contain nothing but lactose and the inevitable impurities. This is literally no-medicine medicine. And what of 200C? That means the active substance is sequentially diluted 1:100 and succussed two hundred times. That would leave you with only one molecule of the active substance to every one hundred to the two hundredth power molecules of solvent, or 1 followed by four hundred zeroes (10400). But the total number of atoms in the entire universe is estimated to be about one googol, which is 1 followed by a mere one hundred zeroes. This is the point at which we are all supposed to realize how ridiculous this is and share a good laugh. But homeopaths don't laugh. They've done the same calculation. And while they agree that not a single molecule of the active substance could remain, they contend it doesn't matter, the water/alcohol mixture somehow remembers that the substance was once there. The process of succussion is presumed to charge the entire volume of the liquid with the same memory. Is there any evidence for such a memory? " http://www.csicop.org/si/9709/park.html


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## scottyswotty (Jun 29, 2000)

thumbs down for Roger's "informed" and "insightful" post...







we've already got one Flux around here mate, we don't need another...


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## scottyswotty (Jun 29, 2000)

thumbs down for Roger's "informed" and "insightful" post...







we've already got one Flux around here mate, we don't need another...


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

the histamine/basophil experiments are going to turn out to be the holy grail that confirms what millions already know.it is reproducible -- so long as the researcher is careful and follows protocol. this is why Professor Ennis and others gladly welcome and "encourage others to investigate this phenomenon."REPRODUCIBLE!


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

the histamine/basophil experiments are going to turn out to be the holy grail that confirms what millions already know.it is reproducible -- so long as the researcher is careful and follows protocol. this is why Professor Ennis and others gladly welcome and "encourage others to investigate this phenomenon."REPRODUCIBLE!


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:REPRODUCIBLE


This just means you can dream the same dream over and over again.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:REPRODUCIBLE


This just means you can dream the same dream over and over again.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Well the histamine study was in 2001. What is the follow up on that?


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Well the histamine study was in 2001. What is the follow up on that?


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## scottyswotty (Jun 29, 2000)

.kel. don't take reflux's bait anymore. he will just bring you down to his level.at the end of the day, you know your truth as to what works for you. don't worry if others don't accept it or insist on external validation for something that you know works for you. just focus on getting better.Two sayings that apply here:1. the only way to save the world is to save yourself & 2. let sleeping dogs lie.Some who see your positive experiences with homeopathy will go along. others will not and follow Flux's views. Its up to them to continue to suffer as their free will allows them to.It's good that you posted your positive experiences in the first place though and I hope others do so as well.


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## scottyswotty (Jun 29, 2000)

.kel. don't take reflux's bait anymore. he will just bring you down to his level.at the end of the day, you know your truth as to what works for you. don't worry if others don't accept it or insist on external validation for something that you know works for you. just focus on getting better.Two sayings that apply here:1. the only way to save the world is to save yourself & 2. let sleeping dogs lie.Some who see your positive experiences with homeopathy will go along. others will not and follow Flux's views. Its up to them to continue to suffer as their free will allows them to.It's good that you posted your positive experiences in the first place though and I hope others do so as well.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Here is a more recent article in the Guardian Guardian newspaper- researchers doubt worth of homeopathy This is a quote from your article Kel-"One thing however seems certain. Either Benveniste will now be brought in from the cold, or Professor Ennis and the rest of the scientists involved in the pan-European experiment could be joining him there"I am afraid Ennis has joined Benveniste out in the cold. No further news from them


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Here is a more recent article in the Guardian Guardian newspaper- researchers doubt worth of homeopathy This is a quote from your article Kel-"One thing however seems certain. Either Benveniste will now be brought in from the cold, or Professor Ennis and the rest of the scientists involved in the pan-European experiment could be joining him there"I am afraid Ennis has joined Benveniste out in the cold. No further news from them


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Here iis the follow up on Ennis.IT was IRREPRODUCIBLEMADELEINE ENNIS: I was asked whether, if I really believed my viewpoint, would I test the hypothesis that the data were wrong?NARRATOR: Ennis knew that the memory of water breaks the laws the science, but she believed that a scientist should always be willing to investigate new ideas, so the sceptical Ennis ended up testing the central claim of homeopathy. She performed an experiment almost identical to Benveniste's using the same kind of blood cell. Then she added a chemical, histamine, which had been diluted down to homeopathic levels. The crucial question: would it have any effect on the cells? To find out she had to count the cells one by one to see whether they had been affected by the homeopathic water. The results were mystifying. the homeopathic water couldn't have had a single molecule of histamine, yet it still had an effect on the cells.MADELEINE ENNIS: They certainly weren't the results that I wanted to see and they definitely weren't the results that I would have liked to have seen.NARRATOR: Ennis wondered whether counting by hand had introduced an error, so she repeated the experiment using an automated system to count the cells, and astonishingly, the result was still positive.MADELEINE ENNIS: I was incredibly surprised and really had great feelings of disbelief, but I know how the experiments were performed and I couldn't see an error in what we had done.NARRATOR: These results seemed to prove that water does have a memory after all. It's exactly what the homeopaths have been hoping for.PETER FISHER: If these results become generally accepted it will revolutionise the view of homeopathy. Homeopathy will suddenly become this idea that was perhaps born before its time.LIONEL MILGROM: It's particularly exciting because it does seem to suggest that Benveniste was correct.NARRATOR: At last here is evidence from a highly respected researcher that homeopathic water has a real biological effect. The claims of homeopathy might be true after all. However, the arch sceptic Randi is unimpressed.JAMES RANDI: There is so many ways that errors are purposeful interference can take place.NARRATOR: As part of his campaign to test bizarre claims Randi has decided to put his money where his mouth is. On his website is a public promise: to anyone who prove the scientifically impossible Randi will pay $1m.JAMES RANDI: This is not a cheap theatrical stung. It's theatrical, yes, but it's a million dollar's worth.NARRATOR: Proving the memory of water would certainly qualify for the million dollars. To win the prize someone would simply have to repeat Ennis's experiments under controlled conditions, yet no-one has applied.JAMES RANDI: Where are the homeopathic labs, the biological labs around the world, who say that this is the real thing who would want to make a million dollars and aren't doing it?NARRATOR: So Horizon decided to take up Randi's challenge. We gathered experts from some of Britain's leading scientific institutions to help us repeat Ennis's experiments. Under the most rigorous of conditions they'll see whether they can find any evidence for the memory of water. We brought James Randi over from the United States to witness the experiment and we came to the world's most august scientific institution, the Royal Society. The Vice-President of the Society, Professor John Enderby, agreed to oversee the experiment for us.PROF. JOHN ENDERBY: ...but they'll, of course as far as the experimenters are concerned they'll have totally different numbersï¿½NARRATOR: And with a million dollars at stake James Randi wants to make sure there's no room for error.JAMES RANDI: ...keeping the original samples, so I'm very happy with that provision. I'm willing to accept a positive result for homeopathy or for astrology or for anything else. I may not like it, but I have to be willing to accept it.NARRATOR: The first stage is to prepare the homeopathic dilutions. We came to the laboratories of University College London where Professor Peter Mobbs agreed to produce them for us. He's going to make a homeopathic solution of histamine by repeatedly diluting one drop of solution into 99 drops of water.PETER MOBBS: OK, now I'm transferring the histamine into 9.9mmls of distilled water and then we'll discard the tip.NARRATOR: For comparison we also need control tubes, tubes that have never had histamine in them. For these Peter starts with plain water.PETER MOBBS: In it goes.NARRATOR: This stage dilutes the solutions down to one in 100 - that's 1C. We now have 10 tubes. Half are just water diluted with more water, the control tubes, half are histamine diluted in water. These are all shaken, the crucial homeopathic step. Now he dilutes each of the tubes again, to 2C. Then to 3C, all the way to 5C.PETER MOBBS: The histamine's now been diluted ten thousand million times. Still a few molecules left in there, but not very many.NARRATOR: Then we asked Professor of Electrical Engineering, Hugh Griffiths, to randomly relabel each of our 10 tubes. Now only he has the code for which tubes contain the homeopathic dilutions and which tubes contain water.HUGH GRIFFITHS: OK, so there's the record of which is which. I'm going to encase it in aluminium foil and then seal it in this envelope here.NARRATOR: Next the time-consuming task of taking these solutions down to true homeopathic levels. UCL scientist Rachel Pearson takes each of the tubes and dilutes them down further - to 6C. That's one drop in 20 swimming pools. To 12C - a drop in the Atlantic. Then to 15C - one drop in all the world's oceans. The tubes have now been diluted one million million million million million times. Some are taken even further down, to 18C. Every tube, whether it contains histamine or water, goes through exactly the same procedure. To guard against any possibility of fraud, Professor Enderby himself recodes every single tube. The result is 40 tubes none of which should contain any molecules of histamine at all. Conventional science says they are all identical, but if Madeleine Ennis is right her methods should tell which ones contain the real homeopathic dilutions. Now we repeat Ennis's procedure. We take a drop of water from each of the tubes and add a sample of living human cells. Then it's time for Wayne Turnbull at Guys Hospital, to analyse the cells to see whether the homeopathic water has had any effect. He'll be using the most sophisticated system available: a flow cytometer.WAYNE TURNBULL: Loading it up, bringing it up to pressure. Essentially the technology allows us to take individual cells and push them past a focused laser beam. A single stream of cells will be pushed along through the nozzle head and come straight down through the machine. The laser lights will be focussed at each individual cell as it goes past. Reflected laser light is then being picked up by these electronic detectors here.NARRATOR: By measuring the light reflected off each cell the computer can tell whether they've reacted or not.WAYNE TURNBULL: This is actually a very fast machine. I can run up to 100 million cells an hour.JAMES RANDI: Whoa.NARRATOR: But to be absolutely rigorous we asked a second scientist, Marian Macey at the Royal London Hospital, to perform the analysis in parallel. Our two labs get to work. Using a flow cytometer they measure how many of the cells are being activated by the different test solutions. Some tubes do seem to be having more of an effect than others. The question is: are they the homeopathic ones? At last the analysis is complete. We gather all the participants here to the Royal Society to find out the results. First, everyone confirms that the experiment has been conducted in a rigorous fashion.MARION MACEY: I applied my own numbering system to theï¿½RACHEL PEARSON: ...5, 5.4 millimolar solutionï¿½WAYNE TURNBULL: ...we eventually did arrive at a protocol that we were happy with.NARRATOR: Then there's the small matter of the million dollars.JOHN ENDERBY: James, is the cheque in your pocket ready now?JAMES RANDI: We don't actually carry a cheque around. It's in the form of negotiable bonds which will be immediately sep, separated from our account and given to whoever should win the prize.NARRATOR: We asked the firm to fax us confirmation that the million dollar prize is there.JOHN ENDERBY: OK, now look, I'm going to open this envelope.NARRATOR: Now at last it's time to break the code. On hand to analyse the results is statistician Martin Bland.JOHN ENDERBY: 59.NARRATOR: We've divided the tubes into those that did and didn't seem to have an effect in our experiment.JOHN ENDERBY: 62.NARRATOR: Each tube is either a D for the homeopathic dilutions, or a C, for the plain water controls.JOHN ENDERBY: 52 and 75 were Cs.NARRATOR: Rachel Pearson identifies the tubes with a C or D. If the memory of water is real each column should either have mostly Cs or mostly Ds. This would show that the homeopathic dilutions are having a real effect, different from ordinary water. There's a hint that the letters are starting to line up.JOHN ENDERBY: Column 1 we've got 5 Cs and a D. Column 3 we've got 4 Cs and a D, so let's press on. 148 and 9, 28 andï¿½NARRATOR: But as more codes are read out the true result becomes clear: the Cs and Ds are completely mixed up. The results are just what you'd expect by chance. A statistical analysis confirms it. The homeopathic water hasn't had any effect.PROF. MARTIN BLAND (St. George's Hospital Medical School): There's absolutely no evidence at all to say that there is any difference between the solution that started off as pure water and the solution that started off with the histamine.JOHN ENDERBY: What this has convinced me is that water does not have a memory.NARRATOR: So Horizon hasn't won the million dollars. It's another triumph for James Randi. His reputation and his money are safe, but even he admits this may not be the final word.JAMES RANDI: Further investigation needs to be done. This may sound a little strange coming from me, but if there is any possibility that there's a reality here I want to know about it, all of humanity wants to know about it.NARRATOR: Homeopathy is back where it started without any credible scientific explanation. That won't stop millions of people putting their faith in it, but science is confident. Homeopathy is impossible. http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/...athytrans.shtml


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Here iis the follow up on Ennis.IT was IRREPRODUCIBLEMADELEINE ENNIS: I was asked whether, if I really believed my viewpoint, would I test the hypothesis that the data were wrong?NARRATOR: Ennis knew that the memory of water breaks the laws the science, but she believed that a scientist should always be willing to investigate new ideas, so the sceptical Ennis ended up testing the central claim of homeopathy. She performed an experiment almost identical to Benveniste's using the same kind of blood cell. Then she added a chemical, histamine, which had been diluted down to homeopathic levels. The crucial question: would it have any effect on the cells? To find out she had to count the cells one by one to see whether they had been affected by the homeopathic water. The results were mystifying. the homeopathic water couldn't have had a single molecule of histamine, yet it still had an effect on the cells.MADELEINE ENNIS: They certainly weren't the results that I wanted to see and they definitely weren't the results that I would have liked to have seen.NARRATOR: Ennis wondered whether counting by hand had introduced an error, so she repeated the experiment using an automated system to count the cells, and astonishingly, the result was still positive.MADELEINE ENNIS: I was incredibly surprised and really had great feelings of disbelief, but I know how the experiments were performed and I couldn't see an error in what we had done.NARRATOR: These results seemed to prove that water does have a memory after all. It's exactly what the homeopaths have been hoping for.PETER FISHER: If these results become generally accepted it will revolutionise the view of homeopathy. Homeopathy will suddenly become this idea that was perhaps born before its time.LIONEL MILGROM: It's particularly exciting because it does seem to suggest that Benveniste was correct.NARRATOR: At last here is evidence from a highly respected researcher that homeopathic water has a real biological effect. The claims of homeopathy might be true after all. However, the arch sceptic Randi is unimpressed.JAMES RANDI: There is so many ways that errors are purposeful interference can take place.NARRATOR: As part of his campaign to test bizarre claims Randi has decided to put his money where his mouth is. On his website is a public promise: to anyone who prove the scientifically impossible Randi will pay $1m.JAMES RANDI: This is not a cheap theatrical stung. It's theatrical, yes, but it's a million dollar's worth.NARRATOR: Proving the memory of water would certainly qualify for the million dollars. To win the prize someone would simply have to repeat Ennis's experiments under controlled conditions, yet no-one has applied.JAMES RANDI: Where are the homeopathic labs, the biological labs around the world, who say that this is the real thing who would want to make a million dollars and aren't doing it?NARRATOR: So Horizon decided to take up Randi's challenge. We gathered experts from some of Britain's leading scientific institutions to help us repeat Ennis's experiments. Under the most rigorous of conditions they'll see whether they can find any evidence for the memory of water. We brought James Randi over from the United States to witness the experiment and we came to the world's most august scientific institution, the Royal Society. The Vice-President of the Society, Professor John Enderby, agreed to oversee the experiment for us.PROF. JOHN ENDERBY: ...but they'll, of course as far as the experimenters are concerned they'll have totally different numbersï¿½NARRATOR: And with a million dollars at stake James Randi wants to make sure there's no room for error.JAMES RANDI: ...keeping the original samples, so I'm very happy with that provision. I'm willing to accept a positive result for homeopathy or for astrology or for anything else. I may not like it, but I have to be willing to accept it.NARRATOR: The first stage is to prepare the homeopathic dilutions. We came to the laboratories of University College London where Professor Peter Mobbs agreed to produce them for us. He's going to make a homeopathic solution of histamine by repeatedly diluting one drop of solution into 99 drops of water.PETER MOBBS: OK, now I'm transferring the histamine into 9.9mmls of distilled water and then we'll discard the tip.NARRATOR: For comparison we also need control tubes, tubes that have never had histamine in them. For these Peter starts with plain water.PETER MOBBS: In it goes.NARRATOR: This stage dilutes the solutions down to one in 100 - that's 1C. We now have 10 tubes. Half are just water diluted with more water, the control tubes, half are histamine diluted in water. These are all shaken, the crucial homeopathic step. Now he dilutes each of the tubes again, to 2C. Then to 3C, all the way to 5C.PETER MOBBS: The histamine's now been diluted ten thousand million times. Still a few molecules left in there, but not very many.NARRATOR: Then we asked Professor of Electrical Engineering, Hugh Griffiths, to randomly relabel each of our 10 tubes. Now only he has the code for which tubes contain the homeopathic dilutions and which tubes contain water.HUGH GRIFFITHS: OK, so there's the record of which is which. I'm going to encase it in aluminium foil and then seal it in this envelope here.NARRATOR: Next the time-consuming task of taking these solutions down to true homeopathic levels. UCL scientist Rachel Pearson takes each of the tubes and dilutes them down further - to 6C. That's one drop in 20 swimming pools. To 12C - a drop in the Atlantic. Then to 15C - one drop in all the world's oceans. The tubes have now been diluted one million million million million million times. Some are taken even further down, to 18C. Every tube, whether it contains histamine or water, goes through exactly the same procedure. To guard against any possibility of fraud, Professor Enderby himself recodes every single tube. The result is 40 tubes none of which should contain any molecules of histamine at all. Conventional science says they are all identical, but if Madeleine Ennis is right her methods should tell which ones contain the real homeopathic dilutions. Now we repeat Ennis's procedure. We take a drop of water from each of the tubes and add a sample of living human cells. Then it's time for Wayne Turnbull at Guys Hospital, to analyse the cells to see whether the homeopathic water has had any effect. He'll be using the most sophisticated system available: a flow cytometer.WAYNE TURNBULL: Loading it up, bringing it up to pressure. Essentially the technology allows us to take individual cells and push them past a focused laser beam. A single stream of cells will be pushed along through the nozzle head and come straight down through the machine. The laser lights will be focussed at each individual cell as it goes past. Reflected laser light is then being picked up by these electronic detectors here.NARRATOR: By measuring the light reflected off each cell the computer can tell whether they've reacted or not.WAYNE TURNBULL: This is actually a very fast machine. I can run up to 100 million cells an hour.JAMES RANDI: Whoa.NARRATOR: But to be absolutely rigorous we asked a second scientist, Marian Macey at the Royal London Hospital, to perform the analysis in parallel. Our two labs get to work. Using a flow cytometer they measure how many of the cells are being activated by the different test solutions. Some tubes do seem to be having more of an effect than others. The question is: are they the homeopathic ones? At last the analysis is complete. We gather all the participants here to the Royal Society to find out the results. First, everyone confirms that the experiment has been conducted in a rigorous fashion.MARION MACEY: I applied my own numbering system to theï¿½RACHEL PEARSON: ...5, 5.4 millimolar solutionï¿½WAYNE TURNBULL: ...we eventually did arrive at a protocol that we were happy with.NARRATOR: Then there's the small matter of the million dollars.JOHN ENDERBY: James, is the cheque in your pocket ready now?JAMES RANDI: We don't actually carry a cheque around. It's in the form of negotiable bonds which will be immediately sep, separated from our account and given to whoever should win the prize.NARRATOR: We asked the firm to fax us confirmation that the million dollar prize is there.JOHN ENDERBY: OK, now look, I'm going to open this envelope.NARRATOR: Now at last it's time to break the code. On hand to analyse the results is statistician Martin Bland.JOHN ENDERBY: 59.NARRATOR: We've divided the tubes into those that did and didn't seem to have an effect in our experiment.JOHN ENDERBY: 62.NARRATOR: Each tube is either a D for the homeopathic dilutions, or a C, for the plain water controls.JOHN ENDERBY: 52 and 75 were Cs.NARRATOR: Rachel Pearson identifies the tubes with a C or D. If the memory of water is real each column should either have mostly Cs or mostly Ds. This would show that the homeopathic dilutions are having a real effect, different from ordinary water. There's a hint that the letters are starting to line up.JOHN ENDERBY: Column 1 we've got 5 Cs and a D. Column 3 we've got 4 Cs and a D, so let's press on. 148 and 9, 28 andï¿½NARRATOR: But as more codes are read out the true result becomes clear: the Cs and Ds are completely mixed up. The results are just what you'd expect by chance. A statistical analysis confirms it. The homeopathic water hasn't had any effect.PROF. MARTIN BLAND (St. George's Hospital Medical School): There's absolutely no evidence at all to say that there is any difference between the solution that started off as pure water and the solution that started off with the histamine.JOHN ENDERBY: What this has convinced me is that water does not have a memory.NARRATOR: So Horizon hasn't won the million dollars. It's another triumph for James Randi. His reputation and his money are safe, but even he admits this may not be the final word.JAMES RANDI: Further investigation needs to be done. This may sound a little strange coming from me, but if there is any possibility that there's a reality here I want to know about it, all of humanity wants to know about it.NARRATOR: Homeopathy is back where it started without any credible scientific explanation. That won't stop millions of people putting their faith in it, but science is confident. Homeopathy is impossible. http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/...athytrans.shtml


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

the randi prize is a farce of the worst kind. randi actually was quoted by his colleague as saying, "i always have an out."in order to pass any test he sets up one has to jump through preliminary hurdles. (several applicants have done so at which point randi ceases contact with them -- see, the yellow bamboo society for starters.) People have sued him for breach of contract.further more the conditions that he puts his test subjects through are the equal to the nearly impossible.remote viewing studies have taken place at stanford and princeton for up to 25 years with amazing accuracy. --yet any applicants who attempt to test for the randi prize are subjected to the most unbelievable requirements.randi is a fraud plain and simple.his prize is a fraud.tomorrow i will post long essays that expose this fraud.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

the randi prize is a farce of the worst kind. randi actually was quoted by his colleague as saying, "i always have an out."in order to pass any test he sets up one has to jump through preliminary hurdles. (several applicants have done so at which point randi ceases contact with them -- see, the yellow bamboo society for starters.) People have sued him for breach of contract.further more the conditions that he puts his test subjects through are the equal to the nearly impossible.remote viewing studies have taken place at stanford and princeton for up to 25 years with amazing accuracy. --yet any applicants who attempt to test for the randi prize are subjected to the most unbelievable requirements.randi is a fraud plain and simple.his prize is a fraud.tomorrow i will post long essays that expose this fraud.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Hi kel I hope your long essays on Randi have relevance to this example. Otherwise they may be irrelevant.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Hi kel I hope your long essays on Randi have relevance to this example. Otherwise they may be irrelevant.


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Bonnei,I saw the whole story on a French Discovery tv show.It seems well done and when they said that many Homeopathics products are often one drop in a sea,i was convince of the Homeopathic fraud.The famous ever apparently in the medical history.







Still don't know why some have benefits from that.Maybe placebo effect.But the Kel story is stunning anyway.


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Bonnei,I saw the whole story on a French Discovery tv show.It seems well done and when they said that many Homeopathics products are often one drop in a sea,i was convince of the Homeopathic fraud.The famous ever apparently in the medical history.







Still don't know why some have benefits from that.Maybe placebo effect.But the Kel story is stunning anyway.


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## scottyswotty (Jun 29, 2000)

spasman - meaning this in the nicest possible way but a lot of your posts are very difficult to read.


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## scottyswotty (Jun 29, 2000)

spasman - meaning this in the nicest possible way but a lot of your posts are very difficult to read.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

it has nothing to do with the actual molecules; it is about the energy that exists behind the matter.any physicist would tell you that all we really are at the most fundamental level is just a seething mass of indeterminate energy packets. the problem is that we are conditioned to only see the matter because the matter is so obvious. if you look at your hand you see that it is there -- that it exists. it is extremely hard to get past the matter aspect and think of the energy that really makes up the hand.one example that might shed some clues on homeopathy is that of magnets. for decades it has been known that correctly placed magnets can speed the healing of bone fractures. this phenomena has nothing to do with the iron in our blood but instead it has to do with the energy of the body.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

it has nothing to do with the actual molecules; it is about the energy that exists behind the matter.any physicist would tell you that all we really are at the most fundamental level is just a seething mass of indeterminate energy packets. the problem is that we are conditioned to only see the matter because the matter is so obvious. if you look at your hand you see that it is there -- that it exists. it is extremely hard to get past the matter aspect and think of the energy that really makes up the hand.one example that might shed some clues on homeopathy is that of magnets. for decades it has been known that correctly placed magnets can speed the healing of bone fractures. this phenomena has nothing to do with the iron in our blood but instead it has to do with the energy of the body.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

if the magnet theory made any sense why doesn't the body blow up while having an MRI?


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

if the magnet theory made any sense why doesn't the body blow up while having an MRI?


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.wddty.co.uk/thefield/noflash/index.asp The Field tells the story of a group of frontier scientists who discovered that the Zero Point Field - an ocean of subatomic vibrations in the space between things - connects everything in the universe, much like the Force in Star Wars.The Field offers a radically new view of the way our world and our bodies work. The human mind and body are not distinct and separate from their environment, but a packet of pulsating energy constantly interacting with this vast energy sea.The Field creates a picture of an interconnected universe and a new scientific theory which makes sense of 'supernatural 'phenomena.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.wddty.co.uk/thefield/noflash/index.asp The Field tells the story of a group of frontier scientists who discovered that the Zero Point Field - an ocean of subatomic vibrations in the space between things - connects everything in the universe, much like the Force in Star Wars.The Field offers a radically new view of the way our world and our bodies work. The human mind and body are not distinct and separate from their environment, but a packet of pulsating energy constantly interacting with this vast energy sea.The Field creates a picture of an interconnected universe and a new scientific theory which makes sense of 'supernatural 'phenomena.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

-----"if the magnet theory made any sense why doesn't the body blow up while having an MRI?"MRI's are rather interesting. people with tattoos can end up with burned skin (depending on the dye). metal splinters in the body can be ripped out.there was a case of a boy who was killed when an oxygen tank was accidentaly brought in and it was ripped loose from the tech's grip and shattered the boy's head.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

-----"if the magnet theory made any sense why doesn't the body blow up while having an MRI?"MRI's are rather interesting. people with tattoos can end up with burned skin (depending on the dye). metal splinters in the body can be ripped out.there was a case of a boy who was killed when an oxygen tank was accidentaly brought in and it was ripped loose from the tech's grip and shattered the boy's head.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Dyes, metallic strips don't qualify for magnetic energy from the natural body


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Dyes, metallic strips don't qualify for magnetic energy from the natural body


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:the randi prize is a farce of the worst kind. randi actually was quoted by his colleague as saying, "i always have an out."


Of course, it's called reality.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:the randi prize is a farce of the worst kind. randi actually was quoted by his colleague as saying, "i always have an out."


Of course, it's called reality.


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## garywest (Apr 7, 2000)

Hi cp kel bonnenei and folks how r u?oops i forgot Flux!(LOL). i sure do miss the posters hehehehe .Kel thanks for yr email Linda you could not have said it better. Homeopathy works regardless of what the "experts" say Just liek the ad for i think NYQUIL? Homeopathy works for me and is all that i care. Let me try to put things in perspective.First and foremost: DIET ALONE WILL NOT CURE OR GIVE PERMANENT RELIEF FROM IBS-C OR IBS-D.Sure we can eliminate certain foods that aggravate our gut. But as u must have noticed the same foods sometimes do not aggravate IBS. Which is puzzling to say the least. I was in USA for 10 yrs and have tried many diets and meds including accupuncture and chinese herbs.With no results. Prescription meds we all knwo do not work in face i had posted an article last week or so which appeared on msn website. Antidepressants liek zoloft, paxil and others have been found to have severe side eefects and withdrawal effects which may have have caused deaths. The FDA is still studying cases as of now but have advised and warned docs to inform patients about the potential effects in case of abrupt withdrawal of these drugs. As Eric ahs mentioned o smany times IBS is pyschosomatic disorder MIND-GUT axis is the KEY.The meds MUST work on the MIND first! Anxiety, panic attacks, depression, anger irritability are all associated with IBS. But then why many people havign these same traits do not have IBS. Again in peopel with IBS the neurotransmitters - signals from brain to gut somehow do no t "commiuicate" as in people without IBS. Erci has mentioned this too.please excuse my spelling an d poor typing skills.NOW let me say that i have not been prescribed the stanadard meds from my doc like nux vomica sulphur n stuff. He syas each person is unique with different emotions, past expereiences and traits and must be given meds which "suit" him/her.No common meds liek in conventional medicine.We all know that the pharma industry is huge in USA by some estimate it is $4 billion second only to porn industry est. to be $11 billionnow wonder with increase in drugs prices americans r buying meds in Canada. I am not statign that i have been "cured".but i m far better. No anxiety (much less)anger is less and irritability too. Weight gain - yes but not to my ideal weight. depression none.Diet? i am on normal diet -- whole wheat, veggies, chicken , rice yogurt. restrictions - No Coffee, no alcohol ( but i sumtimes get tempted and drink beer)no spicy food , no garlic and onions all must be complied if homeopathic meds r to work fo rme these restrictions r common?in hoemopathy i dont know but thats not a prob for meYes there are NAYSAYERS AND CUTE POSTER BUDDIES (points to Flux) but do i get bothered by their sarcasm and negative comments NOPE.(smiles)WE are "rational" yes and I am rational Homeopathy is working fo r me and thats all i knowPerhaps i may myself enroll in homeopathy college here its a 5 yr degree here in INDIA.Did i try homeopathy in USA? u betI di dcall a doc in new jersey but i never visited him talked to him on phone and he did not sound "authentic" more like a case of jack of all trades, master of noneI must say that there are docs(quacks) who will take advantage of desperate ppl and IBS we all know can be pretty bad!As far as the cost ? I am paying around 400-500 indian ruppes a week for meds and consultation fees to my doc which is $10 Howveer ist not the money which in US dollars is cheap but the relief is good. (pun intended!)Yes i do have flare ups which are getting less and less.Kel I did have to tell my symptoms in details to my doc including my emotions, teenage years and other stuff I must admit that i did have rough teenage years which i think may have contributed to my IBS there was thread some time back regarding ABUSE(verbal emotional or physical) and IBS and there was an uproar here and claims and counter claims. Howver i want o state as far myself i had arguments with my dad and with peers. nuthin serious. some folks have mailed me at my rediff email i was out of town sorry if i did not reply but i hope thsi post may answwer soem of yr doubts.Liek Linda said those who can use this info will and those who do not think "out of the box" to use that term , well? its upto themEach individual has to make a choice. i hav emade mine. Kel i would liek to state that homeopathy has the capacity to "change" our body constitution. in other words alter our characteristics personlaity wise and boost our immune systems to fight chronic diseases like IBS. Jay may i ask ho wmany yrs of expereince does yr doc has? did he ask u in details about everything relating to IBS and not relating to IBS as such.I have already posted reg. my meds in my post on sunday .feel free to email mekel ask r u a doctor?u sound lik eone !hehehehei have not seen Mike of leap lately is he CURED?Eric what about u?how si yr progress on CBT tapes ru taking prescription meds too? lemeem knowThansk fo r reading. i got accried away i think!but what can i do ?anxiety is gone!(LOL)no i await some sarcasm and CUTE POSTERS from U KNOW WHO! LOL!take careregardsGaryTHERE IS HOPE WITH HOMEOPATHY!


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## garywest (Apr 7, 2000)

Hi cp kel bonnenei and folks how r u?oops i forgot Flux!(LOL). i sure do miss the posters hehehehe .Kel thanks for yr email Linda you could not have said it better. Homeopathy works regardless of what the "experts" say Just liek the ad for i think NYQUIL? Homeopathy works for me and is all that i care. Let me try to put things in perspective.First and foremost: DIET ALONE WILL NOT CURE OR GIVE PERMANENT RELIEF FROM IBS-C OR IBS-D.Sure we can eliminate certain foods that aggravate our gut. But as u must have noticed the same foods sometimes do not aggravate IBS. Which is puzzling to say the least. I was in USA for 10 yrs and have tried many diets and meds including accupuncture and chinese herbs.With no results. Prescription meds we all knwo do not work in face i had posted an article last week or so which appeared on msn website. Antidepressants liek zoloft, paxil and others have been found to have severe side eefects and withdrawal effects which may have have caused deaths. The FDA is still studying cases as of now but have advised and warned docs to inform patients about the potential effects in case of abrupt withdrawal of these drugs. As Eric ahs mentioned o smany times IBS is pyschosomatic disorder MIND-GUT axis is the KEY.The meds MUST work on the MIND first! Anxiety, panic attacks, depression, anger irritability are all associated with IBS. But then why many people havign these same traits do not have IBS. Again in peopel with IBS the neurotransmitters - signals from brain to gut somehow do no t "commiuicate" as in people without IBS. Erci has mentioned this too.please excuse my spelling an d poor typing skills.NOW let me say that i have not been prescribed the stanadard meds from my doc like nux vomica sulphur n stuff. He syas each person is unique with different emotions, past expereiences and traits and must be given meds which "suit" him/her.No common meds liek in conventional medicine.We all know that the pharma industry is huge in USA by some estimate it is $4 billion second only to porn industry est. to be $11 billionnow wonder with increase in drugs prices americans r buying meds in Canada. I am not statign that i have been "cured".but i m far better. No anxiety (much less)anger is less and irritability too. Weight gain - yes but not to my ideal weight. depression none.Diet? i am on normal diet -- whole wheat, veggies, chicken , rice yogurt. restrictions - No Coffee, no alcohol ( but i sumtimes get tempted and drink beer)no spicy food , no garlic and onions all must be complied if homeopathic meds r to work fo rme these restrictions r common?in hoemopathy i dont know but thats not a prob for meYes there are NAYSAYERS AND CUTE POSTER BUDDIES (points to Flux) but do i get bothered by their sarcasm and negative comments NOPE.(smiles)WE are "rational" yes and I am rational Homeopathy is working fo r me and thats all i knowPerhaps i may myself enroll in homeopathy college here its a 5 yr degree here in INDIA.Did i try homeopathy in USA? u betI di dcall a doc in new jersey but i never visited him talked to him on phone and he did not sound "authentic" more like a case of jack of all trades, master of noneI must say that there are docs(quacks) who will take advantage of desperate ppl and IBS we all know can be pretty bad!As far as the cost ? I am paying around 400-500 indian ruppes a week for meds and consultation fees to my doc which is $10 Howveer ist not the money which in US dollars is cheap but the relief is good. (pun intended!)Yes i do have flare ups which are getting less and less.Kel I did have to tell my symptoms in details to my doc including my emotions, teenage years and other stuff I must admit that i did have rough teenage years which i think may have contributed to my IBS there was thread some time back regarding ABUSE(verbal emotional or physical) and IBS and there was an uproar here and claims and counter claims. Howver i want o state as far myself i had arguments with my dad and with peers. nuthin serious. some folks have mailed me at my rediff email i was out of town sorry if i did not reply but i hope thsi post may answwer soem of yr doubts.Liek Linda said those who can use this info will and those who do not think "out of the box" to use that term , well? its upto themEach individual has to make a choice. i hav emade mine. Kel i would liek to state that homeopathy has the capacity to "change" our body constitution. in other words alter our characteristics personlaity wise and boost our immune systems to fight chronic diseases like IBS. Jay may i ask ho wmany yrs of expereince does yr doc has? did he ask u in details about everything relating to IBS and not relating to IBS as such.I have already posted reg. my meds in my post on sunday .feel free to email mekel ask r u a doctor?u sound lik eone !hehehehei have not seen Mike of leap lately is he CURED?Eric what about u?how si yr progress on CBT tapes ru taking prescription meds too? lemeem knowThansk fo r reading. i got accried away i think!but what can i do ?anxiety is gone!(LOL)no i await some sarcasm and CUTE POSTERS from U KNOW WHO! LOL!take careregardsGaryTHERE IS HOPE WITH HOMEOPATHY!


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

GW,it is truly amazing and i will be the first to admit that i did NOT think there was any way possible that it could work.i guess i was brainwashed into the pharmacological model of treatment. i.e., only actual molecules that interact with cellular receptors could create change in the body.i have since learned otherwise. correctly placed magnets can speed healing of bone fractures. incorrect use can retard healing.energy medicine is the wave (no pun intended) of the future.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

GW,it is truly amazing and i will be the first to admit that i did NOT think there was any way possible that it could work.i guess i was brainwashed into the pharmacological model of treatment. i.e., only actual molecules that interact with cellular receptors could create change in the body.i have since learned otherwise. correctly placed magnets can speed healing of bone fractures. incorrect use can retard healing.energy medicine is the wave (no pun intended) of the future.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Found this on Meribaibs Pig Whipworm link. http://www.flyingfists.org/ I agree with Geckler that it is completely counterintuitive and yet it works. This is why 100,000 or so European Medical Doctors use it!Further I will add that these so called clusters is Not the real answer. The real answer must be what happens to some underlying property beneath the actual clusters/matter (i.e., the energy). There must be some type of imprint.***********************************----HOMEOPATHY ----This branch of science is generally laughed at by medical researchers and well-educated laypeople alike. On the face of it, it makes no sense to dilute a substance to make it more potent. But it should be pointed out that this is exactly how Pasteur invented the first modern vaccines. He was following principles laid out by Samuel Hahnemann, which seem like pleasant enough lunacy to us now, two centuries further along. But then, maybe we don't understand dilution as much as we like to think we do.At least, that's according to a remarkable project reported in *The New Scientist, 9 Nov 2001: * quote: What he discovered was a phenomenon new to chemistry. "When he diluted the solution, the size of the fullerene particles increased," says Geckeler. "It was completely counterintuitive," he says. (...) Dilution typically made the molecules cluster into aggregates five to 10 times as big as those in the original solutions. The growth was not linear, and it depended on the concentration of the original. (...) But the finding may provide a mechanism for how some homeopathic medicines might work - something that has defied scientific explanation till now. Diluting a remedy may increase the size of the particles to the point when they become biologically active. There's still a wide gap between noticing that dilution makes large particles and explaining how tiny bits of nux vomica can ease nausea. But it does go some way to explaining how some double-blind studies have shown homeopathic treatment actually does work. At least some of the time.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Found this on Meribaibs Pig Whipworm link. http://www.flyingfists.org/ I agree with Geckler that it is completely counterintuitive and yet it works. This is why 100,000 or so European Medical Doctors use it!Further I will add that these so called clusters is Not the real answer. The real answer must be what happens to some underlying property beneath the actual clusters/matter (i.e., the energy). There must be some type of imprint.***********************************----HOMEOPATHY ----This branch of science is generally laughed at by medical researchers and well-educated laypeople alike. On the face of it, it makes no sense to dilute a substance to make it more potent. But it should be pointed out that this is exactly how Pasteur invented the first modern vaccines. He was following principles laid out by Samuel Hahnemann, which seem like pleasant enough lunacy to us now, two centuries further along. But then, maybe we don't understand dilution as much as we like to think we do.At least, that's according to a remarkable project reported in *The New Scientist, 9 Nov 2001: * quote: What he discovered was a phenomenon new to chemistry. "When he diluted the solution, the size of the fullerene particles increased," says Geckeler. "It was completely counterintuitive," he says. (...) Dilution typically made the molecules cluster into aggregates five to 10 times as big as those in the original solutions. The growth was not linear, and it depended on the concentration of the original. (...) But the finding may provide a mechanism for how some homeopathic medicines might work - something that has defied scientific explanation till now. Diluting a remedy may increase the size of the particles to the point when they become biologically active. There's still a wide gap between noticing that dilution makes large particles and explaining how tiny bits of nux vomica can ease nausea. But it does go some way to explaining how some double-blind studies have shown homeopathic treatment actually does work. At least some of the time.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Nice research. The full article isThe World's No.1 Science & Technology News Service Bizarre chemical discovery gives homeopathic hint 19:00 07 November 01 It is a chance discovery so unexpected it defies belief and threatens to reignite debate about whether there is a scientific basis for thinking homeopathic medicines really work.A team in South Korea has discovered a whole new dimension to just about the simplest chemical reaction in the book - what happens when you dissolve a substance in water and then add more water. Conventional wisdom says that the dissolved molecules simply spread further and further apart as a solution is diluted. But two chemists have found that some do the opposite: they clump together, first as clusters of molecules, then as bigger aggregates of those clusters. Far from drifting apart from their neighbours, they got closer together.The discovery has stunned chemists, and could provide the first scientific insight into how some homeopathic remedies work. Homeopaths repeatedly dilute medications, believing that the higher the dilution, the more potent the remedy becomes.Some dilute to "infinity" until no molecules of the remedy remain. They believe that water holds a memory, or "imprint" of the active ingredient which is more potent than the ingredient itself. But others use less dilute solutions - often diluting a remedy six-fold. The Korean findings might at last go some way to reconciling the potency of these less dilute solutions with orthodox science. Completely counterintuitive German chemist Kurt Geckeler and his colleague Shashadhar Samal stumbled on the effect while investigating fullerenes at their lab in the Kwangju Institute of Science and Technology in South Korea. They found that the football-shaped buckyball molecules kept forming untidy aggregates in solution, and Geckler asked Samal to look for ways to control how these clumps formed. What he discovered was a phenomenon new to chemistry. "When he diluted the solution, the size of the fullerene particles increased," says Geckeler. "It was completely counterintuitive," he says. Further work showed it was no fluke. To make the otherwise insoluble buckyball dissolve in water, the chemists had mixed it with a circular sugar-like molecule called a cyclodextrin. When they did the same experiments with just cyclodextrin molecules, they found they behaved the same way. So did the organic molecule sodium guanosine monophosphate, DNA and plain old sodium chloride.Dilution typically made the molecules cluster into aggregates five to 10 times as big as those in the original solutions. The growth was not linear, and it depended on the concentration of the original. "The history of the solution is important. The more dilute it starts, the larger the aggregates," says Geckeler. Also, it only worked in polar solvents like water, in which one end of the molecule has a pronounced positive charge while the other end is negative.Biologically active But the finding may provide a mechanism for how some homeopathic medicines work - something that has defied scientific explanation till now. Diluting a remedy may increase the size of the particles to the point when they become biologically active. It also echoes the controversial claims of French immunologist Jacques Benveniste. In 1988, Benveniste claimed in a Nature paper that a solution that had once contained antibodies still activated human white blood cells. Benveniste claimed the solution still worked because it contained ghostly "imprints" in the water structure where the antibodies had been.Other researchers failed to reproduce Benveniste's experiments, but homeopaths still believe he may have been onto something. Benveniste himself does not think the new findings explain his results because the solutions were not dilute enough. "This [phenomenon] cannot apply to high dilution," he says. Fred Pearce of University College London, who tried to repeat Benveniste's experiments, agrees. But it could offer some clues as to why other less dilute homeopathic remedies work, he says. Large clusters and aggregates might interact more easily with biological tissue.Double-check *Chemist Jan Enberts of the University of Groningen in the Netherlands is more cautious. "It's still a totally open question," he says. "To say the phenomenon has biological significance is pure speculation." *But he has no doubt Samal and Geckeler have discovered something new. "It's surprising and worrying," he says.The two chemists were at pains to double-check their astonishing results. Initially they had used the scattering of a laser to reveal the size and distribution of the dissolved particles. To check, they used a scanning electron microscope to photograph films of the solutions spread over slides. This, too, showed that dissolved substances cluster together as dilution increased. "It doesn't prove homeopathy, but it's congruent with what we think and is very encouraging," says Peter Fisher, director of medical research at the Royal London Homeopathic Hospital. "The whole idea of high-dilution homeopathy hangs on the idea that water has properties which are not understood," he says. "The fact that the new effect happens with a variety of substances suggests it's the solvent that's responsible. It's in line with what many homeopaths say, that you can only make homeopathic medicines in polar solvents."Geckeler and Samal are now anxious that other researchers follow up their work. "We want people to repeat it," says Geckeler. "If it's confirmed it will be groundbreaking".Journal reference: Chemical Communications (2001, p 2224) http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991532 The actual paper can be here http://www.rsc.org/CFmuscat/intermediate_a...03881o.PDF&TYP= Click on PDF file on the left


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Nice research. The full article isThe World's No.1 Science & Technology News Service Bizarre chemical discovery gives homeopathic hint 19:00 07 November 01 It is a chance discovery so unexpected it defies belief and threatens to reignite debate about whether there is a scientific basis for thinking homeopathic medicines really work.A team in South Korea has discovered a whole new dimension to just about the simplest chemical reaction in the book - what happens when you dissolve a substance in water and then add more water. Conventional wisdom says that the dissolved molecules simply spread further and further apart as a solution is diluted. But two chemists have found that some do the opposite: they clump together, first as clusters of molecules, then as bigger aggregates of those clusters. Far from drifting apart from their neighbours, they got closer together.The discovery has stunned chemists, and could provide the first scientific insight into how some homeopathic remedies work. Homeopaths repeatedly dilute medications, believing that the higher the dilution, the more potent the remedy becomes.Some dilute to "infinity" until no molecules of the remedy remain. They believe that water holds a memory, or "imprint" of the active ingredient which is more potent than the ingredient itself. But others use less dilute solutions - often diluting a remedy six-fold. The Korean findings might at last go some way to reconciling the potency of these less dilute solutions with orthodox science. Completely counterintuitive German chemist Kurt Geckeler and his colleague Shashadhar Samal stumbled on the effect while investigating fullerenes at their lab in the Kwangju Institute of Science and Technology in South Korea. They found that the football-shaped buckyball molecules kept forming untidy aggregates in solution, and Geckler asked Samal to look for ways to control how these clumps formed. What he discovered was a phenomenon new to chemistry. "When he diluted the solution, the size of the fullerene particles increased," says Geckeler. "It was completely counterintuitive," he says. Further work showed it was no fluke. To make the otherwise insoluble buckyball dissolve in water, the chemists had mixed it with a circular sugar-like molecule called a cyclodextrin. When they did the same experiments with just cyclodextrin molecules, they found they behaved the same way. So did the organic molecule sodium guanosine monophosphate, DNA and plain old sodium chloride.Dilution typically made the molecules cluster into aggregates five to 10 times as big as those in the original solutions. The growth was not linear, and it depended on the concentration of the original. "The history of the solution is important. The more dilute it starts, the larger the aggregates," says Geckeler. Also, it only worked in polar solvents like water, in which one end of the molecule has a pronounced positive charge while the other end is negative.Biologically active But the finding may provide a mechanism for how some homeopathic medicines work - something that has defied scientific explanation till now. Diluting a remedy may increase the size of the particles to the point when they become biologically active. It also echoes the controversial claims of French immunologist Jacques Benveniste. In 1988, Benveniste claimed in a Nature paper that a solution that had once contained antibodies still activated human white blood cells. Benveniste claimed the solution still worked because it contained ghostly "imprints" in the water structure where the antibodies had been.Other researchers failed to reproduce Benveniste's experiments, but homeopaths still believe he may have been onto something. Benveniste himself does not think the new findings explain his results because the solutions were not dilute enough. "This [phenomenon] cannot apply to high dilution," he says. Fred Pearce of University College London, who tried to repeat Benveniste's experiments, agrees. But it could offer some clues as to why other less dilute homeopathic remedies work, he says. Large clusters and aggregates might interact more easily with biological tissue.Double-check *Chemist Jan Enberts of the University of Groningen in the Netherlands is more cautious. "It's still a totally open question," he says. "To say the phenomenon has biological significance is pure speculation." *But he has no doubt Samal and Geckeler have discovered something new. "It's surprising and worrying," he says.The two chemists were at pains to double-check their astonishing results. Initially they had used the scattering of a laser to reveal the size and distribution of the dissolved particles. To check, they used a scanning electron microscope to photograph films of the solutions spread over slides. This, too, showed that dissolved substances cluster together as dilution increased. "It doesn't prove homeopathy, but it's congruent with what we think and is very encouraging," says Peter Fisher, director of medical research at the Royal London Homeopathic Hospital. "The whole idea of high-dilution homeopathy hangs on the idea that water has properties which are not understood," he says. "The fact that the new effect happens with a variety of substances suggests it's the solvent that's responsible. It's in line with what many homeopaths say, that you can only make homeopathic medicines in polar solvents."Geckeler and Samal are now anxious that other researchers follow up their work. "We want people to repeat it," says Geckeler. "If it's confirmed it will be groundbreaking".Journal reference: Chemical Communications (2001, p 2224) http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991532 The actual paper can be here http://www.rsc.org/CFmuscat/intermediate_a...03881o.PDF&TYP= Click on PDF file on the left


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

kel your rash could it be toxicity? The side effects of homeopathy haven't been studied much and in places like India where it is widely practised there is no organization like FDA to monitor the side effects. I don't know how it is in USA but I found this article on homeopathy causing toxicity including skin lesions.Journal of Toxicology: Clinical Toxicology, Dec 2003 v41 i7 p963(5) Arsenic toxicity from homeopathic treatment. Dipankar Chakraborti; Subhash Chandra Mukherjee; Khitish Chandra Saha; Uttam Kumar Chowdhury; Mohammad Mahmudur Rahman; Mrinal Kumar Sengupta. Author's Abstract: COPYRIGHT 2003 Marcel Dekker, Inc. Homeopathic medicine is commonly believed to be relatively harmless. However, treatment with improperly used homeopathic preparations may be dangerous. Case Reports. Case 1 presented with melanosis and keratosis following short-term use of Arsenic Bromide 1-X followed by long-term use of other arsenic-containing homeopathic preparations. Case 2 developed melanotic arsenical skin lesions after taking Arsenicum Sulfuratum Flavum-l-X (Arsenic S.F. l-X) in an effort to treat his white skin patches. Case 3 consumed Arsenic Bromide 1-X for 6 days in an effort to treat his diabetes and developed an acute gastrointestinal illness followed by leukopenia, thrombocytopenia, and diffuse dermal melanosis with patchy desquamation. Within ~2 weeks, he developed a toxic polyneuropathy resulting in quadriparesis. Arsenic concentrations in all three patients were significantly elevated in integument tissue samples. In all three cases, arsenic concentrations in drinking water were normal but arsenic concentrations in samples of the homeopathic medications were elevated. Conclusion. Arsenic used therapeutically in homeopathic medicines can cause clinical toxicity if the medications are improperly used.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

kel your rash could it be toxicity? The side effects of homeopathy haven't been studied much and in places like India where it is widely practised there is no organization like FDA to monitor the side effects. I don't know how it is in USA but I found this article on homeopathy causing toxicity including skin lesions.Journal of Toxicology: Clinical Toxicology, Dec 2003 v41 i7 p963(5) Arsenic toxicity from homeopathic treatment. Dipankar Chakraborti; Subhash Chandra Mukherjee; Khitish Chandra Saha; Uttam Kumar Chowdhury; Mohammad Mahmudur Rahman; Mrinal Kumar Sengupta. Author's Abstract: COPYRIGHT 2003 Marcel Dekker, Inc. Homeopathic medicine is commonly believed to be relatively harmless. However, treatment with improperly used homeopathic preparations may be dangerous. Case Reports. Case 1 presented with melanosis and keratosis following short-term use of Arsenic Bromide 1-X followed by long-term use of other arsenic-containing homeopathic preparations. Case 2 developed melanotic arsenical skin lesions after taking Arsenicum Sulfuratum Flavum-l-X (Arsenic S.F. l-X) in an effort to treat his white skin patches. Case 3 consumed Arsenic Bromide 1-X for 6 days in an effort to treat his diabetes and developed an acute gastrointestinal illness followed by leukopenia, thrombocytopenia, and diffuse dermal melanosis with patchy desquamation. Within ~2 weeks, he developed a toxic polyneuropathy resulting in quadriparesis. Arsenic concentrations in all three patients were significantly elevated in integument tissue samples. In all three cases, arsenic concentrations in drinking water were normal but arsenic concentrations in samples of the homeopathic medications were elevated. Conclusion. Arsenic used therapeutically in homeopathic medicines can cause clinical toxicity if the medications are improperly used.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

bonniei,i am glad you posted the whole article. it is an interesting read.if nothing else it goes to show that the things we think we know (same for the scientists) may be completely untrue. counterintuitive is correct.once again i don't think that this is the true explanation for what is happening. in fact benveniste has stated the same conclusion in the 3rd section of your article. the simple reason is that homeopathy is still active beyond 12c and 24x.what i think is happening is that there is some type of imprint taking place within the subatomic realm of the solution. it sounds CRAZY but why not?afterall, it is 2004 and they have only recently discovered something as simple as what your article just described concerning "clusters".their discovery pertains to actual matter which is a whole lot easier to see, touch, and test than energy or subatomic happenings.Homeopathy --- I know it works. I did not think it could possibly work yet it does!mankind really has a lot more to learn and discover.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

bonniei,i am glad you posted the whole article. it is an interesting read.if nothing else it goes to show that the things we think we know (same for the scientists) may be completely untrue. counterintuitive is correct.once again i don't think that this is the true explanation for what is happening. in fact benveniste has stated the same conclusion in the 3rd section of your article. the simple reason is that homeopathy is still active beyond 12c and 24x.what i think is happening is that there is some type of imprint taking place within the subatomic realm of the solution. it sounds CRAZY but why not?afterall, it is 2004 and they have only recently discovered something as simple as what your article just described concerning "clusters".their discovery pertains to actual matter which is a whole lot easier to see, touch, and test than energy or subatomic happenings.Homeopathy --- I know it works. I did not think it could possibly work yet it does!mankind really has a lot more to learn and discover.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

A 1X arsenic solution is insane. No one would do that unless they were deranged. there is also a report of a thallium toxicity. once again some people do not know what they are doing. once you get to 6C you only have a trillion to 1 ratio. why someone would mess around with 1X is beyond me -- that is not homeopathy.******************************i will admit that i did suffer from 2 minor aggravations from the treatment. the sulphur did bring on a rash but it is about 75% gone right now, and it also brought on another symptom. which is completely gone. it was removed with a higher potency of the remedy that brought it on.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

A 1X arsenic solution is insane. No one would do that unless they were deranged. there is also a report of a thallium toxicity. once again some people do not know what they are doing. once you get to 6C you only have a trillion to 1 ratio. why someone would mess around with 1X is beyond me -- that is not homeopathy.******************************i will admit that i did suffer from 2 minor aggravations from the treatment. the sulphur did bring on a rash but it is about 75% gone right now, and it also brought on another symptom. which is completely gone. it was removed with a higher potency of the remedy that brought it on.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

> quotence again i don't think that this is the true explanation for what is happening. in fact benveniste has stated the same conclusion in the 3rd section of your article. the simple reason is that homeopathy is still active beyond 12c and 24x.


I think the simple reason that it is not the answer is that homeopaths haven't jumped all over it. This was published in 2001. No more news about it since then.Heere is some lukewarm research about memory of waterIcy claim that water has memory 19:00 11 June 03 Exclusive from New Scientist Print Edition. Subscribe and get 4 free issues. Claims do not come much more controversial than the idea that water might retain a memory of substances once dissolved in it. The notion is central to homeopathy, which treats patients with samples so dilute they are unlikely to contain a single molecule of the active compound, but it is generally ridiculed by scientists. Holding such a heretical view famously cost one of France's top allergy researchers, Jacques Benveniste, his funding, labs and reputation after his findings were discredited in 1988.Yet a paper is about to be published in the reputable journal Physica A claiming to show that even though they should be identical, the structure of hydrogen bonds in pure water is very different from that in homeopathic dilutions of salt solutions. Could it be time to take the "memory" of water seriously?The paper's author, Swiss chemist Louis Rey, is using thermoluminescence to study the structure of solids. The technique involves bathing a chilled sample with radiation. When the sample is warmed up, the stored energy is released as light in a pattern that reflects the atomic structure of the sample.Twin peaks When Rey used the method on ice he saw two peaks of light, at temperatures of around 120 K and 170 K. Rey wanted to test the idea, suggested by other researchers, that the 170 K peak reflects the pattern of hydrogen bonds within the ice. In his experiments he used heavy water (which contains the heavy hydrogen isotope deuterium), because it has stronger hydrogen bonds than normal water. Unexplained results After studying pure samples, Rey looked at solutions of lithium chloride and sodium chloride. Lithium chloride destroys hydrogen bonds, as does sodium chloride, but to a lesser extent. Sure enough, the peak was smaller for a solution of sodium chloride, and disappeared completely for a lithium chloride solution.Aware of homeopaths' claims that patterns of hydrogen bonds can survive successive dilutions, Rey decided to test samples that had been diluted down to a notional 10-30 grams per cubic centimetre - way beyond the point when any ions of the original substance could remain. "We thought it would be of interest to challenge the theory," he says. Each dilution was made according to a strict protocol, and vigorously stirred at each stage, as homeopaths do. When Rey compared the ultra-dilute lithium and sodium chloride solutions with pure water that had been through the same process, the difference in their thermoluminescence peaks compared with pure water was still there (see graph). "Much to our surprise, the thermoluminescence glows of the three systems were substantially different," he says. He believes the result proves that the networks of hydrogen bonds in the samples were different.Phase transition Martin Chaplin from London's South Bank University, an expert on water and hydrogen bonding, is not so sure. "Rey's rationale for water memory seems most unlikely," he says. "Most hydrogen bonding in liquid water rearranges when it freezes." He points out that the two thermoluminescence peaks Rey observed occur around the temperatures where ice is known to undergo transitions between different phases. He suggests that tiny amounts of impurities in the samples, perhaps due to inefficient mixing, could be getting concentrated at the boundaries between different phases in the ice and causing the changes in thermoluminescence.But thermoluminescence expert Raphael Visocekas from the Denis Diderot University of Paris, who watched Rey carry out some of his experiments, says he is convinced. "The experiments showed a very nice reproducibility," he told New Scientist. "It is trustworthy physics." He see no reason why patterns of hydrogen bonds in the liquid samples should not survive freezing and affect the molecular arrangement of the ice.After his own experience, Benveniste advises caution. "This is interesting work, but Rey's experiments were not blinded and although he says the work is reproducible, he doesn't say how many experiments he did," he says. "As I know to my cost, this is such a controversial field, it is mandatory to be as foolproof as possible." Lionel Milgrom http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993817


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

> quotence again i don't think that this is the true explanation for what is happening. in fact benveniste has stated the same conclusion in the 3rd section of your article. the simple reason is that homeopathy is still active beyond 12c and 24x.


I think the simple reason that it is not the answer is that homeopaths haven't jumped all over it. This was published in 2001. No more news about it since then.Heere is some lukewarm research about memory of waterIcy claim that water has memory 19:00 11 June 03 Exclusive from New Scientist Print Edition. Subscribe and get 4 free issues. Claims do not come much more controversial than the idea that water might retain a memory of substances once dissolved in it. The notion is central to homeopathy, which treats patients with samples so dilute they are unlikely to contain a single molecule of the active compound, but it is generally ridiculed by scientists. Holding such a heretical view famously cost one of France's top allergy researchers, Jacques Benveniste, his funding, labs and reputation after his findings were discredited in 1988.Yet a paper is about to be published in the reputable journal Physica A claiming to show that even though they should be identical, the structure of hydrogen bonds in pure water is very different from that in homeopathic dilutions of salt solutions. Could it be time to take the "memory" of water seriously?The paper's author, Swiss chemist Louis Rey, is using thermoluminescence to study the structure of solids. The technique involves bathing a chilled sample with radiation. When the sample is warmed up, the stored energy is released as light in a pattern that reflects the atomic structure of the sample.Twin peaks When Rey used the method on ice he saw two peaks of light, at temperatures of around 120 K and 170 K. Rey wanted to test the idea, suggested by other researchers, that the 170 K peak reflects the pattern of hydrogen bonds within the ice. In his experiments he used heavy water (which contains the heavy hydrogen isotope deuterium), because it has stronger hydrogen bonds than normal water. Unexplained results After studying pure samples, Rey looked at solutions of lithium chloride and sodium chloride. Lithium chloride destroys hydrogen bonds, as does sodium chloride, but to a lesser extent. Sure enough, the peak was smaller for a solution of sodium chloride, and disappeared completely for a lithium chloride solution.Aware of homeopaths' claims that patterns of hydrogen bonds can survive successive dilutions, Rey decided to test samples that had been diluted down to a notional 10-30 grams per cubic centimetre - way beyond the point when any ions of the original substance could remain. "We thought it would be of interest to challenge the theory," he says. Each dilution was made according to a strict protocol, and vigorously stirred at each stage, as homeopaths do. When Rey compared the ultra-dilute lithium and sodium chloride solutions with pure water that had been through the same process, the difference in their thermoluminescence peaks compared with pure water was still there (see graph). "Much to our surprise, the thermoluminescence glows of the three systems were substantially different," he says. He believes the result proves that the networks of hydrogen bonds in the samples were different.Phase transition Martin Chaplin from London's South Bank University, an expert on water and hydrogen bonding, is not so sure. "Rey's rationale for water memory seems most unlikely," he says. "Most hydrogen bonding in liquid water rearranges when it freezes." He points out that the two thermoluminescence peaks Rey observed occur around the temperatures where ice is known to undergo transitions between different phases. He suggests that tiny amounts of impurities in the samples, perhaps due to inefficient mixing, could be getting concentrated at the boundaries between different phases in the ice and causing the changes in thermoluminescence.But thermoluminescence expert Raphael Visocekas from the Denis Diderot University of Paris, who watched Rey carry out some of his experiments, says he is convinced. "The experiments showed a very nice reproducibility," he told New Scientist. "It is trustworthy physics." He see no reason why patterns of hydrogen bonds in the liquid samples should not survive freezing and affect the molecular arrangement of the ice.After his own experience, Benveniste advises caution. "This is interesting work, but Rey's experiments were not blinded and although he says the work is reproducible, he doesn't say how many experiments he did," he says. "As I know to my cost, this is such a controversial field, it is mandatory to be as foolproof as possible." Lionel Milgrom http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993817


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

I am glad that New Scientist interviews Benveniste for each article of homeopathy that it prints because I a lot of homeopathy in modern times derives from him though much of his work has been discredited.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

I am glad that New Scientist interviews Benveniste for each article of homeopathy that it prints because I a lot of homeopathy in modern times derives from him though much of his work has been discredited.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

yes, much of it was discredited but there is a lot of research that has backed it up as of recentin fact the histamine water modulating basophils experiments is the one that is going to bring the house down for all the skeptics. mark my words right here and now on this one.it may take a while before everyone gets on board but it will happen."...machines can't fly" the skeptics shouted at the top of their lungs. One week before the first powered flight there was a big article in a science magazine describing the impossibility of flight.the world is littered with men who have small minds.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

yes, much of it was discredited but there is a lot of research that has backed it up as of recentin fact the histamine water modulating basophils experiments is the one that is going to bring the house down for all the skeptics. mark my words right here and now on this one.it may take a while before everyone gets on board but it will happen."...machines can't fly" the skeptics shouted at the top of their lungs. One week before the first powered flight there was a big article in a science magazine describing the impossibility of flight.the world is littered with men who have small minds.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:A 1X arsenic solution is insane


How is homeopathy not insane? It doesn't do anything.


> quote:there is a lot of research that has backed it up as of recent


This is published where,







?


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:A 1X arsenic solution is insane


How is homeopathy not insane? It doesn't do anything.


> quote:there is a lot of research that has backed it up as of recent


This is published where,







?


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Well the inhibiting activity of histamine solutions can be reproduced only at 18C, according to one of their own scientists. So they too admit a limitation of their study if nothing else http://www.boiron.com/en/htm/04-politique/...amentale_03.htm


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Well the inhibiting activity of histamine solutions can be reproduced only at 18C, according to one of their own scientists. So they too admit a limitation of their study if nothing else http://www.boiron.com/en/htm/04-politique/...amentale_03.htm


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## canada dry (Feb 18, 2002)

flux:A 1x homeopathic remedy consists of 1 drop of the original substance prepared as a tincture diluted in 9 drops of a 40%alcohol/water mixture. The remedy is then shaken 100 times to complete the preparation. This shaking method is referred to as succession. The method used to prepare the original tincture varies depending on the nature of the substance.Arsenic Bromide ingested in sufficient quantities at these concentrations will produce toxic effects and can be lethal.bonniei:There is also an article by Haug Verlag published in the January 2002 edition of the German journal Zeitschrift fuer Klassische Homoeopathie which documents a case with lethal consequences following an uncontrolled repeated ingestion of Arsenicum (arsenic) 6X. At 6X potency the arsenic is diluted to 1/10E6.


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## canada dry (Feb 18, 2002)

flux:A 1x homeopathic remedy consists of 1 drop of the original substance prepared as a tincture diluted in 9 drops of a 40%alcohol/water mixture. The remedy is then shaken 100 times to complete the preparation. This shaking method is referred to as succession. The method used to prepare the original tincture varies depending on the nature of the substance.Arsenic Bromide ingested in sufficient quantities at these concentrations will produce toxic effects and can be lethal.bonniei:There is also an article by Haug Verlag published in the January 2002 edition of the German journal Zeitschrift fuer Klassische Homoeopathie which documents a case with lethal consequences following an uncontrolled repeated ingestion of Arsenicum (arsenic) 6X. At 6X potency the arsenic is diluted to 1/10E6.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Hi Thanks Frostbite . I will try to see if I can find the article. . It is surprising that when arsenic is dilurted 1/10E6 it still has the effect. But OTOH not that surprising because no one has studied the side effects of homeopathy._I edited out something which was WRONG!_


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Hi Thanks Frostbite . I will try to see if I can find the article. . It is surprising that when arsenic is dilurted 1/10E6 it still has the effect. But OTOH not that surprising because no one has studied the side effects of homeopathy._I edited out something which was WRONG!_


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## canada dry (Feb 18, 2002)

bonnieiidn't you know, homeopathic remedies do not produce side effects.







Anytime side effects and homeopathy are mentioned together it makes the hair stand up on the back of a homeopath and an argument usually develops. Unwanted effects that occur during treatment are referred to as a proving. I just wanted to let you from the homeopathic point of view. I wouldnï¿½t want to see you get into a debate with any homeopath.







I really have trouble accepting the idea that the effects of a proving during treatment are not side effects. In conventional medicine side effects are an unwanted effect and in homeopathy the effect of a proving is also unwanted during treatment so what is the difference?Wrt the article I referred you to. I do not speak German and have only read the following English summary.ï¿½The case:female patient, 32 ys. old. healthy , no chronic diseases. Interested in homeopathy for 12 years.August 15, 1992: diarrhea with vomiting after eating ice-cream. 2 days later the patient, who feels weak, anxious restless, ask her doctor:'What do you think about Arsenicum?'About 14 days later, after eating some fish, another bout of vomiting and diarrhea. According to the husband of the patient, the patient took Ars 6X, 3 times 3 glob. daily, till her death on October 29, 1992.During the time in-between some additional symptoms developpedversensitivity to cold; insensitivity on finger-tips and legs; swelling of eye-lids; itching dry skin without eruption, ascending paralysis.Arsenicum levels elevated in urine and blood.Probably other remedies were taken as well, such as Verat 3x, Kali-br X3, and others.In the discussion the authors conlude that the death of the patient was obviously the consequence of a prolonged remedial disease caused by self-prescribing Ars X6. This is confirmed by the laboratory values and the results of the post-mortem examination.The elevated values of Arsenicum in urine and serum could, hypothetically, be explained by a mobilisation of endogenous Arsenicum, e.g. from the bones.ï¿½I find it interesting that arsenic was detected in the blood. I donï¿½t believe its source was from the remedy and I also find it hard to believe that it came from something like the bones of the victim. Maybe the individual was actually taking a less dilute remedy but I would expect the composition of the remedy in question would have been analyzed to confirm the arsenic concentration.I plan to post again on this tread when I have time. I know I will get fluxed but I have my own experiences with homeopathy which I will once again relay to the members who are interested in this topic.


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## canada dry (Feb 18, 2002)

bonnieiidn't you know, homeopathic remedies do not produce side effects.







Anytime side effects and homeopathy are mentioned together it makes the hair stand up on the back of a homeopath and an argument usually develops. Unwanted effects that occur during treatment are referred to as a proving. I just wanted to let you from the homeopathic point of view. I wouldnï¿½t want to see you get into a debate with any homeopath.







I really have trouble accepting the idea that the effects of a proving during treatment are not side effects. In conventional medicine side effects are an unwanted effect and in homeopathy the effect of a proving is also unwanted during treatment so what is the difference?Wrt the article I referred you to. I do not speak German and have only read the following English summary.ï¿½The case:female patient, 32 ys. old. healthy , no chronic diseases. Interested in homeopathy for 12 years.August 15, 1992: diarrhea with vomiting after eating ice-cream. 2 days later the patient, who feels weak, anxious restless, ask her doctor:'What do you think about Arsenicum?'About 14 days later, after eating some fish, another bout of vomiting and diarrhea. According to the husband of the patient, the patient took Ars 6X, 3 times 3 glob. daily, till her death on October 29, 1992.During the time in-between some additional symptoms developpedversensitivity to cold; insensitivity on finger-tips and legs; swelling of eye-lids; itching dry skin without eruption, ascending paralysis.Arsenicum levels elevated in urine and blood.Probably other remedies were taken as well, such as Verat 3x, Kali-br X3, and others.In the discussion the authors conlude that the death of the patient was obviously the consequence of a prolonged remedial disease caused by self-prescribing Ars X6. This is confirmed by the laboratory values and the results of the post-mortem examination.The elevated values of Arsenicum in urine and serum could, hypothetically, be explained by a mobilisation of endogenous Arsenicum, e.g. from the bones.ï¿½I find it interesting that arsenic was detected in the blood. I donï¿½t believe its source was from the remedy and I also find it hard to believe that it came from something like the bones of the victim. Maybe the individual was actually taking a less dilute remedy but I would expect the composition of the remedy in question would have been analyzed to confirm the arsenic concentration.I plan to post again on this tread when I have time. I know I will get fluxed but I have my own experiences with homeopathy which I will once again relay to the members who are interested in this topic.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Are you saying that when side effects occur that the homeopaths believe that it is a proving that a the person has the disease or the medicime is effective?


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Are you saying that when side effects occur that the homeopaths believe that it is a proving that a the person has the disease or the medicime is effective?


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## roger (Mar 26, 2003)

> quote: one example that might shed some clues on homeopathy is that of magnets. for decades it has been known that correctly placed magnets can speed the healing of bone fractures. this phenomena has nothing to do with the iron in our blood but instead it has to do with the energy of the body.


Or NOT:The following is from a Boston Globe article dated June 22, 2004. A mainstream doctor finds a place for alternative medicine


> quote: We needed help. At the parents' request, we consulted the ''alternative medicine" team at Children's Hospital. The recommendation: small magnets attached behind the toddler's ears. So on morning rounds, we discussed the size of his pulmonary arteries, surgical management, various cardiac parameters, metabolic needs, detailed medication orders -- and then the magnet therapy. A few eyebrows were raised, and sardonic looks exchanged. It seemed a little wishful, sticking some magnets to the child's head at one of the highest-technology units in the hospital.There was no miracle cure: The child's parents thought the magnets helped a bit and were grateful the doctors had made an extra effort, but the headaches persisted and the narcotics continued.


.kel.o you expect to be taken seriously when you cite the Star Wars Force as a reference?


> quote: The Field tells the story of a group of frontier scientists who discovered that the Zero Point Field - an ocean of subatomic vibrations in the space between things - *connects everything in the universe, much like the Force in Star Wars.*


I hate to break it to you but Star Wars was a science fiction movie. The Force was accomplished with Hollywood special effects. Hmmm..., maybe they are similar after all.


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## roger (Mar 26, 2003)

> quote: one example that might shed some clues on homeopathy is that of magnets. for decades it has been known that correctly placed magnets can speed the healing of bone fractures. this phenomena has nothing to do with the iron in our blood but instead it has to do with the energy of the body.


Or NOT:The following is from a Boston Globe article dated June 22, 2004. A mainstream doctor finds a place for alternative medicine


> quote: We needed help. At the parents' request, we consulted the ''alternative medicine" team at Children's Hospital. The recommendation: small magnets attached behind the toddler's ears. So on morning rounds, we discussed the size of his pulmonary arteries, surgical management, various cardiac parameters, metabolic needs, detailed medication orders -- and then the magnet therapy. A few eyebrows were raised, and sardonic looks exchanged. It seemed a little wishful, sticking some magnets to the child's head at one of the highest-technology units in the hospital.There was no miracle cure: The child's parents thought the magnets helped a bit and were grateful the doctors had made an extra effort, but the headaches persisted and the narcotics continued.


.kel.o you expect to be taken seriously when you cite the Star Wars Force as a reference?


> quote: The Field tells the story of a group of frontier scientists who discovered that the Zero Point Field - an ocean of subatomic vibrations in the space between things - *connects everything in the universe, much like the Force in Star Wars.*


I hate to break it to you but Star Wars was a science fiction movie. The Force was accomplished with Hollywood special effects. Hmmm..., maybe they are similar after all.


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

O dear Lord.I'm on the middle ground in this one.1. I agree with Kmottus - Dbpc is the gold standard. I'm sorry Kel but 'clinical experience' is often wrong and is based on emotional interpretation. Most Dr's and alternative practicioners are not scientists and are not trained as such.2. Magnetic wound healing. Can also use electrodes. There is nothing mystic about this. Healing tissue usually grows randomly. By placing magnets or electrodes over the site of the scar the electromagnetic field causes the collagen molecules to line up together - the tissue then heals faste as their is now order. Standard science. Kel - I am a phyisicist by training - I'm sorry but you don't understand the physics you bring up in this context so please don't try and use it to justify your points this way.3. This is not a board for those who enjoy arguing - its a support board.4. Here's the tricky part. I was always skeptical of homeopathy. Until I was having some difficulties with my pancreas not functioning correctly. My doc gave me a homeopathic Mumps nosode as the mumps is know to affect the pancreas and although I never had the mumps I would ahve had the vaccine - which can also have slight effects. Not only did it improve my pancreatic function (as evidenced by a reduction of symptoms, but I also experienced some side-effects such as swollen glands and some other stuff I can't remember. Now the only vaguely rational explanation I can come up with is placebo effect (in any case I don't think you can somaticise symptoms so particulary -and even if you could - why do pharmaceutical medicines not have the same effect on me?). Here's the clincher though - I didn't know some of the side-effects until after I got them and I looked them up. Now how can this be ? I don't know and I am certainly not totally convinved of homeopathy - and even though I think the explanations for homeopathy are mostly rubbish - it would be crazy to ignore this experience in my body.So I remain an open-minded skeptic. Anyhow that's my 2cents - I'll leave the rest of you to slug things out in what is for now an unwinnable arguemtn.


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

O dear Lord.I'm on the middle ground in this one.1. I agree with Kmottus - Dbpc is the gold standard. I'm sorry Kel but 'clinical experience' is often wrong and is based on emotional interpretation. Most Dr's and alternative practicioners are not scientists and are not trained as such.2. Magnetic wound healing. Can also use electrodes. There is nothing mystic about this. Healing tissue usually grows randomly. By placing magnets or electrodes over the site of the scar the electromagnetic field causes the collagen molecules to line up together - the tissue then heals faste as their is now order. Standard science. Kel - I am a phyisicist by training - I'm sorry but you don't understand the physics you bring up in this context so please don't try and use it to justify your points this way.3. This is not a board for those who enjoy arguing - its a support board.4. Here's the tricky part. I was always skeptical of homeopathy. Until I was having some difficulties with my pancreas not functioning correctly. My doc gave me a homeopathic Mumps nosode as the mumps is know to affect the pancreas and although I never had the mumps I would ahve had the vaccine - which can also have slight effects. Not only did it improve my pancreatic function (as evidenced by a reduction of symptoms, but I also experienced some side-effects such as swollen glands and some other stuff I can't remember. Now the only vaguely rational explanation I can come up with is placebo effect (in any case I don't think you can somaticise symptoms so particulary -and even if you could - why do pharmaceutical medicines not have the same effect on me?). Here's the clincher though - I didn't know some of the side-effects until after I got them and I looked them up. Now how can this be ? I don't know and I am certainly not totally convinved of homeopathy - and even though I think the explanations for homeopathy are mostly rubbish - it would be crazy to ignore this experience in my body.So I remain an open-minded skeptic. Anyhow that's my 2cents - I'll leave the rest of you to slug things out in what is for now an unwinnable arguemtn.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

If we lived in a perfect world that may be true. It is easy to use the dbpc study to prove that a certain weed killer is more effective than the control (water). It is an entirely different matter when you are dealing with complex health issues. In the words of a Harvard MD –dr benson, “…nothing has caused more aggravation to scientists than the placebo effect.” The dbpc study as it relates to complex health issues has too many variables to overcome. A certain treatment may be effective at reducing the burden of the body’s detoxification pathways by say --- 5 to 15%. Can this be realistically tested in a dbpc study of CFIDS patients? In a perfect world maybe it can. But who has the time and the millions of dollars to test it over and over again to arrive at this conclusion. –and then it is nothing more than just a small part of the total answer. This is just one of the many reasons why I say that the DBPC study is just a tool --- a single tool in the toolbox.Clinical experience may be wrong many times but I have used my good instincts to trust many things that have not been proven via the dbpc study. Heavy metal detoxification is one such example. The dbpc study may never solve this issue but in my opinion it is foolish for the medical community to ignore this as a contributing factor. The treatment was cheap and I suspect that it helped out but I will never know this for a fact. I trusted the clinical experience of my MDs on this issue. These are the same MDs that recommended homeopathy and even acupuncture. If I combine this clinical experience with the clinical experience of Dr Dahlman’s program then somewhere in all of this lies the reason why my 20 year IBS nightmare is gone. The two remaining problems ---sinus and brain problem will be solved shortly, I know it is going to happen. Near perfect health is right around the corner for me.Traditional Chinese Medicine in my opinion has a lot to offer. It was built around clinical observation. They may not get all of it correct but only a fool would make the claim that it is useless compared to western medicine. Afterall western medicine has proved that prozac is effective for treating depression --- no wait, the dbpc studies show that it is hardly better than placebo. Yet it is used anyway. Many of the more honest psychiatrists are using their clinical experience to arrive at this conclusion. –but wait again, many people are saved by this drug ----ahh, the complexity of it all.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

If we lived in a perfect world that may be true. It is easy to use the dbpc study to prove that a certain weed killer is more effective than the control (water). It is an entirely different matter when you are dealing with complex health issues. In the words of a Harvard MD –dr benson, “…nothing has caused more aggravation to scientists than the placebo effect.” The dbpc study as it relates to complex health issues has too many variables to overcome. A certain treatment may be effective at reducing the burden of the body’s detoxification pathways by say --- 5 to 15%. Can this be realistically tested in a dbpc study of CFIDS patients? In a perfect world maybe it can. But who has the time and the millions of dollars to test it over and over again to arrive at this conclusion. –and then it is nothing more than just a small part of the total answer. This is just one of the many reasons why I say that the DBPC study is just a tool --- a single tool in the toolbox.Clinical experience may be wrong many times but I have used my good instincts to trust many things that have not been proven via the dbpc study. Heavy metal detoxification is one such example. The dbpc study may never solve this issue but in my opinion it is foolish for the medical community to ignore this as a contributing factor. The treatment was cheap and I suspect that it helped out but I will never know this for a fact. I trusted the clinical experience of my MDs on this issue. These are the same MDs that recommended homeopathy and even acupuncture. If I combine this clinical experience with the clinical experience of Dr Dahlman’s program then somewhere in all of this lies the reason why my 20 year IBS nightmare is gone. The two remaining problems ---sinus and brain problem will be solved shortly, I know it is going to happen. Near perfect health is right around the corner for me.Traditional Chinese Medicine in my opinion has a lot to offer. It was built around clinical observation. They may not get all of it correct but only a fool would make the claim that it is useless compared to western medicine. Afterall western medicine has proved that prozac is effective for treating depression --- no wait, the dbpc studies show that it is hardly better than placebo. Yet it is used anyway. Many of the more honest psychiatrists are using their clinical experience to arrive at this conclusion. –but wait again, many people are saved by this drug ----ahh, the complexity of it all.


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

Kel,I assure you I can see both sides. But still dbpc is the only way to prove anything. However there are critisms in the way the dbpc can be carried out. For example - test subjects who show an unusually high placebo response are excluded, generally. Or subjects who show statistically wild responses are exlcuded - which is statistically valid. However - in the everyday world - these people get the drug anyway. So one could argue that dbpc are not an accurate representation of real world conditions.This does not mean that dbpc is worthless - jsut that it needs to be made to simulate the real world better. For anyone who is wondering I am getting the above criticisms from a book called Beyond Prozac:Healing Mental Suffering Without Drugs, written by Dr Terry Lynch. The first chapter contains very will written and researched critique of medical R & D and academic publishing -well worth a read - as is the rest of the book.Here is a speech he gave http://www.critpsynet.freeuk.com/Lynch.htm Here is the book http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=books&n=507846 But back to the quesition at hand. Clinical experience is by its very nature coloured by the beliefs and assumptions of the practicioner. It is only acceptable at times when the science has not been done or is unclear. And herein lies the problem. Alot of the science has not yet been done. Take the people who respond overly much to a drug or who have a very strong placebo response - no-one knows why. The correct response is not to chuck them out of the study as obviously people like this exist - it is to find some meaningful way to include these wildcards into studies.Its all about the assumptions.....


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

Kel,I assure you I can see both sides. But still dbpc is the only way to prove anything. However there are critisms in the way the dbpc can be carried out. For example - test subjects who show an unusually high placebo response are excluded, generally. Or subjects who show statistically wild responses are exlcuded - which is statistically valid. However - in the everyday world - these people get the drug anyway. So one could argue that dbpc are not an accurate representation of real world conditions.This does not mean that dbpc is worthless - jsut that it needs to be made to simulate the real world better. For anyone who is wondering I am getting the above criticisms from a book called Beyond Prozac:Healing Mental Suffering Without Drugs, written by Dr Terry Lynch. The first chapter contains very will written and researched critique of medical R & D and academic publishing -well worth a read - as is the rest of the book.Here is a speech he gave http://www.critpsynet.freeuk.com/Lynch.htm Here is the book http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=books&n=507846 But back to the quesition at hand. Clinical experience is by its very nature coloured by the beliefs and assumptions of the practicioner. It is only acceptable at times when the science has not been done or is unclear. And herein lies the problem. Alot of the science has not yet been done. Take the people who respond overly much to a drug or who have a very strong placebo response - no-one knows why. The correct response is not to chuck them out of the study as obviously people like this exist - it is to find some meaningful way to include these wildcards into studies.Its all about the assumptions.....


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

And to add a quote from Dr Lynch:


> quote:Science demands, of those who purport to be scientists, an open and enquiring mind; rigorous, regular self-examination to ensure that oneï¿½s own biases are not influencing oneï¿½s conclusions; and sufficient honesty and humility to acknowledge the possible validity of views contrary to oneï¿½s own. Science does require us to be open to the possibility that at some future time, perhaps biochemical and/or genetic imbalances may be identified for mental health problems. Science also requires that we do not come to premature conclusions; that is precisely what the medical profession has done for decades, unfortunately.


Note the second sentence - his own view is that psychological problems can be non-biochemical in nature - yet here he states his openess that they might be.We would *ALL !!* do well to take note here.


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## meckle (Mar 5, 2003)

And to add a quote from Dr Lynch:


> quote:Science demands, of those who purport to be scientists, an open and enquiring mind; rigorous, regular self-examination to ensure that oneï¿½s own biases are not influencing oneï¿½s conclusions; and sufficient honesty and humility to acknowledge the possible validity of views contrary to oneï¿½s own. Science does require us to be open to the possibility that at some future time, perhaps biochemical and/or genetic imbalances may be identified for mental health problems. Science also requires that we do not come to premature conclusions; that is precisely what the medical profession has done for decades, unfortunately.


Note the second sentence - his own view is that psychological problems can be non-biochemical in nature - yet here he states his openess that they might be.We would *ALL !!* do well to take note here.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

unfortunately my library does not carry that book. however, i read the paper http://www.critpsynet.freeuk.com/Lynch.htm . it is brilliant. spammer-e needs to read this. i will never forget what these people put me through. i am thinking more and more that heavy metal issues need to be addressed. i am not saying that this will be a cure-all but it is pure foolishness to just ignore it. something dramatic happened to me last year around the time the lead came out. a heavy duty medication that i was on suddenly became unneeded. i can't prove that it was due to the removal of lead or the reduced load of mercury but it makes me wonder. it could have been due to a number of things.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

unfortunately my library does not carry that book. however, i read the paper http://www.critpsynet.freeuk.com/Lynch.htm . it is brilliant. spammer-e needs to read this. i will never forget what these people put me through. i am thinking more and more that heavy metal issues need to be addressed. i am not saying that this will be a cure-all but it is pure foolishness to just ignore it. something dramatic happened to me last year around the time the lead came out. a heavy duty medication that i was on suddenly became unneeded. i can't prove that it was due to the removal of lead or the reduced load of mercury but it makes me wonder. it could have been due to a number of things.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

*Professor Karen Nieber, head of the institute for pharmacy at Leipzig University, set about proving that homeopathy does not work and at the most can be explained by the so-called placebo effect. * It was whilst looking for a test arrangement which totally excluded any placebo effect that she came up with the following idea: she placed a rat intestines in a nutrient solution and fixed it using organic threads to a sensor in order to measure the reduction of the intestines through contraction. She then added a stimulant to the nutrient solution, which caused a strong contraction of the rat intestines.Professor Karen Nieber, as a pharmacologist, expected that the treatment with a homeopathic agent with a potenz above C12 would have no effect against the enterospasms, since there are no more active agents present above this potenz. In order to make the degree of dilution apprehensible: a C14 is like a single drop in all the worlds' oceans together!In Leipzig they then added Belladonna D90 to the nutrient solution with the rat intestines cramped through the stimulant they had added and lo and behold, the enterospasms ceased immediately, the measuring device registered the relaxation of the intestines.What Hahnemann declared two hundred years ago in order to defend his homeopathy may also apply to the Leipzig study:"I don't demand any belief in it, nor require that someone understands it. *Even I don't understand it; but enough, the facts are so and not otherwise. Only the experience says it, which I believe more than my own comprehension." *


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

*Professor Karen Nieber, head of the institute for pharmacy at Leipzig University, set about proving that homeopathy does not work and at the most can be explained by the so-called placebo effect. * It was whilst looking for a test arrangement which totally excluded any placebo effect that she came up with the following idea: she placed a rat intestines in a nutrient solution and fixed it using organic threads to a sensor in order to measure the reduction of the intestines through contraction. She then added a stimulant to the nutrient solution, which caused a strong contraction of the rat intestines.Professor Karen Nieber, as a pharmacologist, expected that the treatment with a homeopathic agent with a potenz above C12 would have no effect against the enterospasms, since there are no more active agents present above this potenz. In order to make the degree of dilution apprehensible: a C14 is like a single drop in all the worlds' oceans together!In Leipzig they then added Belladonna D90 to the nutrient solution with the rat intestines cramped through the stimulant they had added and lo and behold, the enterospasms ceased immediately, the measuring device registered the relaxation of the intestines.What Hahnemann declared two hundred years ago in order to defend his homeopathy may also apply to the Leipzig study:"I don't demand any belief in it, nor require that someone understands it. *Even I don't understand it; but enough, the facts are so and not otherwise. Only the experience says it, which I believe more than my own comprehension." *


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.uni-leipzig.de/~pharm/ Geschï¿½ftsfï¿½hrende Direktorin: Prof. Dr. Karen Nieber


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.uni-leipzig.de/~pharm/ Geschï¿½ftsfï¿½hrende Direktorin: Prof. Dr. Karen Nieber


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:rofessor Karen Nieber, head of the institute for pharmacy at Leipzig University, set about proving that


I think someone was


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:rofessor Karen Nieber, head of the institute for pharmacy at Leipzig University, set about proving that


I think someone was


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## kschultz (Jul 8, 2004)

"Never be afraid to try something new. Remember a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic."


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## kschultz (Jul 8, 2004)

"Never be afraid to try something new. Remember a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic."


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## crankypants (Aug 25, 2002)

Meckle wrote:


> quote: This is not a board for those who enjoy arguing - its a support board.


Wishful thinking, I'm afraid...


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## crankypants (Aug 25, 2002)

Meckle wrote:


> quote: This is not a board for those who enjoy arguing - its a support board.


Wishful thinking, I'm afraid...


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=15287434 Homeopathy. 2004 Jul;93(3):144-50.Permanent physico-chemical properties of extremely diluted aqueous solutions of homeopathic medicines.Elia V, Baiano S, Duro I, Napoli E, Niccoli M, Nonatelli L.Department of Chemistry, University Federico II of Naples, Complesso, Universitario di Monte S. Angelo, via Cintia 80126, Naples, Italy. elia###chemistry.unina.itThe purpose of this study was to obtain information about the influence of successive dilutions and succussions on the water structure. 'Extremely diluted solutions' (EDS) are solutions obtained through the iteration of two processes: dilution in stages of 1:100 and succussion, typically used in homeopathic medicine. The iteration is repeated until extreme dilutions are reached, so that the chemical composition of the solution is identical to that of the solvent. Nine different preparations, were studied from the 3cH to 30cH (Hanhemannian Centesimal Dilution). Four of those were without the active principle (potentized water). Two different active principles were used: Arsenicum sulphuratum rubrum (ASR), As4S4, 2,4-dichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4D). The solvents were: a solution of sodium bicarbonate and of silicic acid at 5 x 10(-5) M (mol/l) each, and solutions of sodium bicarbonate 5 x 10(-5), 7.5 x 10(-5) and 10 x 10(-5) M (mol/l) in double-distilled water. The containers were Pyrex glass to avoid the release of alkaline oxide and silica from the walls. Conductivity measurements of the solutions were carried out as a function of the age of the potencies. *We found increases of electrical conductivity compared to untreated solvent. Successive dilution and succussion can permanently alter the physico-chemical properties of the aqueous solvent. But we also detected changes in physio-chemical parameters with time. This has not previously been reported. The modification of the solvent could provide an important support to the validity of homeopathic medicine, that employs 'medicines without molecules'. * The nature of the phenomena here described remains still unexplained, nevertheless some significant experimental results were obtained.PMID: 15287434 [PubMed - in process]


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=15287434 Homeopathy. 2004 Jul;93(3):144-50.Permanent physico-chemical properties of extremely diluted aqueous solutions of homeopathic medicines.Elia V, Baiano S, Duro I, Napoli E, Niccoli M, Nonatelli L.Department of Chemistry, University Federico II of Naples, Complesso, Universitario di Monte S. Angelo, via Cintia 80126, Naples, Italy. elia###chemistry.unina.itThe purpose of this study was to obtain information about the influence of successive dilutions and succussions on the water structure. 'Extremely diluted solutions' (EDS) are solutions obtained through the iteration of two processes: dilution in stages of 1:100 and succussion, typically used in homeopathic medicine. The iteration is repeated until extreme dilutions are reached, so that the chemical composition of the solution is identical to that of the solvent. Nine different preparations, were studied from the 3cH to 30cH (Hanhemannian Centesimal Dilution). Four of those were without the active principle (potentized water). Two different active principles were used: Arsenicum sulphuratum rubrum (ASR), As4S4, 2,4-dichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4D). The solvents were: a solution of sodium bicarbonate and of silicic acid at 5 x 10(-5) M (mol/l) each, and solutions of sodium bicarbonate 5 x 10(-5), 7.5 x 10(-5) and 10 x 10(-5) M (mol/l) in double-distilled water. The containers were Pyrex glass to avoid the release of alkaline oxide and silica from the walls. Conductivity measurements of the solutions were carried out as a function of the age of the potencies. *We found increases of electrical conductivity compared to untreated solvent. Successive dilution and succussion can permanently alter the physico-chemical properties of the aqueous solvent. But we also detected changes in physio-chemical parameters with time. This has not previously been reported. The modification of the solvent could provide an important support to the validity of homeopathic medicine, that employs 'medicines without molecules'. * The nature of the phenomena here described remains still unexplained, nevertheless some significant experimental results were obtained.PMID: 15287434 [PubMed - in process]


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Homeopathy. 2004 Jul;93(3):144-50.


I think there's a reprint in an issue of


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Homeopathy. 2004 Jul;93(3):144-50.


I think there's a reprint in an issue of


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Flux,You are not funny any longer. Actually, you never were.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Flux,You are not funny any longer. Actually, you never were.


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