# Low sulfur diet



## moor_91

This thread will be about low sulfur diet. There is some evidence, mostly from pig farming research, but also some human research, that suggests odor from flatus and feces can be reduced by reducing the amount of sulfur in the diet. Low sulfur diet seems to reduce the amount of sulfur containing amino acid (lets call SAA) substrates for anaerobic gut bacteria. These bacteria are capable of fermenting SAA to
produce volatile sulfur compounds (VSC). It is VSC that contribute the majority of the odor of flatus and feces, notably H2S, methyl mercaptan (MM) & dimethyl sulfide (DMS) and others. So reduction of dietary SSA substrate availability may reduce lumenal VSC production. This may be therapeutic for odor conditions which are caused by VSC. "Odor conditions which are caused by VSC" translates to a fecal odor complaint. It is my belief that both blood borne odor caused by VSC in blood and VSC odor that comes from anus can be reduced with low sulfur diet, but there is not much evidence for this.

***Important safety thing***
Sulfur has hundreds of roles in human physiology, and it is fundamentally important to health. I *do not advise to reduce methionine (its an essential amino acid) **intake below the RDA ... *13-14 mg per kg of body weight per day*. *Many do not classify elemental sulfur as an essential mineral, and there is no RDA, but it is generally thought to be important. Remember sulfur is a component of all human cells, and is 8th most common element in the human body. Its probably unwise to mess around with such a fundamental nutrient too much. However, I suspect standard diets will excess sulfur that can be reduced substantially to meet the RDA

Goals:
compile an evidence based list of foods high and low in sulfur
build the wikipedia project page for this diet http://en.wikipedia....Low-sulfur_diet
get several people with fecal odor complaint to try low sulfur diet and report on its efficacy
If you are interested in low sulfur diet or have some links about low sulfur please post them in this thread. More scientific references can be used in the wiki which anyone is welcome to contribute to

Here are the immediate sources I have found with low sulfur diet, which unfortunately seems to be written by retards, but we can maybe hope that they don't lie about the sulfur content of foods in their list:

http://www.livingnet...phur-food-list/


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## Common Response

moor_91 said:


> Here are the immediate sources I have found with low sulfur diet, which unfortunately seems to be written by retards, but we can maybe hope that they don't lie about the sulfur content of foods in their list:
> 
> http://www.livingnet...phur-food-list/


I like your determination.

Rather than waiting for things to happen, initiate them yourself.

In your model is it worth taking into account other dietary food groups which could skew your findings?

Also should those who partake in the diet be screened to eliminate personal issues such as food intolerances unrelated to sulfur?

For example those with fructose or lactose intolerance may continue to have FBO on low sulphur.

Is it worth looking at all the FODMAP culprits in your design?

Isn't the low FODMAP diet also low in sulfur but also removes other variables such as Fructose, Polyols, Galactans, & Fructans?

These are just a few notes to assist you in designing your trial.

Here are foods from the low FODMAP chart which are high in sulfur:

artichoke, asparagus,
beetroot, broccoli,
brussels sprouts,
cabbage, eggplant,
fennel, garlic, leek,
okra, onion (all),
shallots, spring onion
baked beans,
chickpeas,
kidney beans,
lentils,
soy beans
milk from cows, goats
or sheep, custard,
ice cream, yoghurt
soft unripened cheeses
eg. cottage, cream,
mascarpone, ricotta
cauliflower, green
capsicum (bell pepper),
mushroom, sweet corn.

Also, as sulfur is essential for all life, will the aim be to minimise rather than eliminate sulfur?

Is there knowledge already in the domain in which has measure minimum sulfur requirements?

In addition to the food source (sulfur containing foods) what function do specific anearobic bacteria play in releasing SAA?

Can we populate our guts with anearobic bacteria which produce low SAA?


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## moor_91

Common Response said:


> In your model is it worth taking into account other dietary food groups which could skew your findings?


almost certainly. This theory is reductionist and oversimplification of a problem



> Also should those who partake in the diet be screened to eliminate personal issues such as food intolerances unrelated to sulfur? For example those with fructose or lactose intolerance may continue to have FBO on low sulphur.


no matter what the cause of the odor is, if it is fecal odor, VSC is probably involved. My theory is that reducing dietary sulfur will reduce the amount of VSC produced and reduce the odor. This might work in someone with VSC like DMS in their blood, giving fecal body odor and halitosis, or it might work with someone who has minor fecal incontinence just to reduce the odor of the substances leaking, be it gas, liquid or solid.

I am not saying this is be all and end all cure. Far from it, it might be helpful for some, to complement other managements like taking digestive enzymes and avoiding dairy in someone who has lactase deficiency...The reason I put this thread is because one member said that low sulfur helped them reduce rectal odor. Then I read about how flatus, feces smells because of sulfur. Then I read about charcoal, bismuth etc reducing odor because they bind to VSC. Then I started reading research mostly on pigs which reduced the odor of their manure by altering the sulfur content of their feed. This is all speculative really, but to me it seems logical that low sulfur diet might reduce fecal odors.



> Is it worth looking at all the FODMAP culprits in your design? Isn't the low FODMAP diet also low in sulfur but also removes other variables such as Fructose, Polyols, Galactans, & Fructans?


Yes, definately. I didn't realize low FODMAP intentionally was low sulfur, I just thought low FODMAP foods also tend to have low sulfur by chance...The research behind low FODMAP is all about reduction of flatus volume and reducing the fermentation of bacteria generally. >99% of the volume of flatus in a normal subject is odorless, with the remaining <1% odor component being caused mostly by VSC and minimal contribution from other volatiles. From Pimmentel's book, patients with IBS-D had more hydrogen on the breath test, and IBS-C had more methane. Hydrogen and methane both odorless, but they are fermentation products. Hence why low FODMAP reduces IBS symptoms and total volume of intestinal gas, but it is my belief that to address odor through diet, you need to take into consideration sulfur on top of low FODMAP.
FODMAP gives gas volume, controls overall activity of bacteria and C & D symptoms (probably pain as well) by effect of non odorous fermentation products on the gut
sulfur containing amino acids give odor to flatus, feces, and also maybe the level of VSC in the blood in those with blood borne odor. This is by putrefaction of SAA, releasing VSC



> Also, as sulfur is essential for all life, will the aim be to minimise rather than eliminate sulfur?


yes, definitely agree



> Is there knowledge already in the domain in which has measure minimum sulfur requirements?


the only RDA available is for methionine. There is no RDA for elemental sulfur, but you still need it to make cysteine. We can assume that all other sulfur compounds (thiols/mercaptans etc) can probably be 100% removed without serious problems...but then again I'm not even close to a nutirionist/dietician lol



> In addition to the food source (sulfur containing foods) what function do specific anearobic bacteria play in releasing SAA?


Bacteria release VSC (volatile sulfur compounds- the smelly sulfur gasses in flatus and feces) by fermenting/putrefying SAA (sulfur containing amino acids).This is all way over my head, but my understanding is that sulfate reducing bacteria in the gut are capable of turning SAA into VSC. Probably bacteria use different metabolic pathways under different conditions, i.e. they change they way they eat depending upon what food is available



> Can we populate our guts with anearobic bacteria which produce low SAA?


*bacteria that produce VSC (as above)
Manipulation of the gut microbiota is the key to many GI problems, but currently this is very difficult to do. Probiotics may temporarily flood the gut with beneficial bacteria, but this is short lived. You can take antibiotics to reduce the numbers of gut bacteria, but the population very quickly recovers afterwards. Fecal bacteriotherapy can be thought of like a hardcore probiotic- instead of one or 2 strains, it contains hundreds of strains...a balanced ans stable ecosystem, which has much greater chance of taking hold. When throwing one or 2 strains at a dysbiosis, this doesn't change the population in the long term for a reason. The dysbiosis is there because those bacteria that are best adapted to that environment have thrived. It is like evolution- why are the plants in a particular part of the world the way they are? because they are adapted to that environment.



> Here are foods from the low FODMAP chart which are high in sulfur:
> 
> artichoke, asparagus,
> beetroot, broccoli,
> brussels sprouts,
> cabbage, eggplant,
> fennel, garlic, leek,
> okra, onion (all),
> shallots, spring onion
> baked beans,
> chickpeas,
> kidney beans,
> lentils,
> soy beans
> milk from cows, goats
> or sheep, custard,
> ice cream, yoghurt
> soft unripened cheeses
> eg. cottage, cream,
> mascarpone, ricotta
> cauliflower, green
> capsicum (bell pepper),
> mushroom, sweet corn.


this is great CR, thanks a million


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## moor_91

I used CR's low FODMAP pdf sheet and searched for low FODMAP, low thiol foods from this site http://www.livingnet...phur-food-list/ There are several others that appear on both lists, but I don't know what they are really.

_fruit:_
grapefruit
kiwi
lemon

_veg:_
zucchini
yam
sweet potato
potato
squash
parsnip
carrot
celery
ginger

_herb:_
coriander
basil
thyme
rosemary
parsley

_grains:_
oats
rice

_sweeteners:_
sucrose

[background=transparent]Note that the list is "low thiol" rather than low sulfur. Thiol means a compound that contains a sulfhydryl group (sulfur bound to hydrogen). [/background]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiol , so methyl mercaptan is a thiol, but H2S, DMS, DMDS and DMTS are not...Neither would lists of elemental sulfur be 100% effective, although pure sulfur gets turned into H2S by sulfate reducing bacteria. We need a break down for each food into its elemental sulfur, methionine, thiol, H2S and other organosulfur compound levels. I will look for a more scientific database.


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## Common Response

M, I don't know your background, but have you considered doing a tertiary degree with this as you thesis.

In a Medical University environment you'd be rubbing shoulders with individuals and their networks, all knowledgable in perpheral information, which would help you work through a low sulphur diet trial.


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## moor_91

whilst you start to learn a lot when you realize that your doctors don't understand or care about your medical problem, it also means that you are not learning or doing things that you would be doing without the medical problem, if that makes sense. I am tired of this defining my life, I just don't want it to be a problem anymore, rather than try to reap any formal research from it, because this takes a long, long time.

More detail about what happens in methionine deficiency: http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2271115/
in short: its a very bad idea to reduce methionine to zero, fatty liver, massive weight loss and anemia. Fortunately unless you eat a synthesized diet, it is very difficult to not eat any methionine... you are going to get enough from animal protein (milk, meat, eggs) or from some vegetables

Maybe it would be best to study methionine content in foods first so the RDA can be ensured


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## Common Response

moor_91 said:


> More detail about what happens in methionine deficiency: http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2271115/
> in short: its a very bad idea to reduce methionine to zero, fatty liver, massive weight loss and anemia. Fortunately unless you eat a synthesized diet, it is very difficult to not eat any methionine... you are going to get enough from animal protein (milk, meat, eggs) or from some vegetables
> 
> Maybe it would be best to study methionine content in foods first so the RDA can be ensured


Does this chart assist?

http://apjcn.nhri.or...ata/data5g.html

Strangely the chart shows some meats with sulphur while other not so.
Does the method of cooking contribute?

At a glance though, it appears eggs, milk, meat and fish are problem foods.

Worthy of note is that dried fruits are high in sulfur.


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## moor_91

Common Response said:


> Does this chart assist?
> 
> http://apjcn.nhri.or...ata/data5g.html
> 
> Strangely the chart shows some meats with sulphur while other not so.
> Does the method of cooking contribute.
> 
> It a glance though, it appears eggs, milk meat and fish are problem foods.
> 
> Dried fruits are high in sulfur.


yeah I was looking at this today. I think this is a list of elemental sulfur rather than sulfur in any other forms. VSC can be produced from many different sulfur compounds, but especially sulfur containing amino acids...methionine, cysteine...we need to consider sulfur in all its forms, not just elemental sulfur...but I have a feeling I will be using this list at some point

The "amalgam illness" source said that meat prepared with a tenderizer would have less thiols...interesting. I'm sure there are many effects on the sulfur depending on how it is cooked.

I can't actually remember the last time I had dried fruits, since they are so bad for FODMAP too.


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## Common Response

Looking at this chart, it appears that steamed Bream, fried Cod, canned Crab, fried Fish Cakes, baked Flounder and tinned Tuna in olive oil are absent of elemental sulfur but all the others seafood is quite high.

Interestingly my daily breakfast consists of steamed jasmine rice topped with canned tuna in olive oil (low FODMAP, low elemental sulfur).









*Sulphur* *milligrams per 100 grams*


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## Common Response

moor_91 said:


> yeah I was looking at this today. I think this is a list of elemental sulfur rather than sulfur in any other forms. VSC can be produced from many different sulfur compounds, but especially sulfur containing amino acids...methionine, cysteine...we need to consider sulfur in all its forms, not just elemental sulfur...but I have a feeling I will be using this list at some point
> 
> The "amalgam illness" source said that meat prepared with a tenderizer would have less thiols...interesting. I'm sure there are many effects on the sulfur depending on how it is cooked.


Sufferers could start using this list as an adjunct to the low FODMAP diet to reduce their load and maybe even get some level of relief.

It appears there are simple changes which might produce some result.

For example:
Roast chicked instead of steamed chicken.
Most grilled steaks but keep away from mince.
Avoid dried fruits of any kind.


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## moor_91

better to use the low thiol list rather than the low elemental sulfur one...I think... but not sure. As I said elemental sulfur can still become H2S. Sulfur metabolism in humans is really complicated. It would probably take ages to even get a vague understanding of the overall process


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## tummyrumbles

This is very interesting. I've had a lot of luck with my low FODMAP low starch Paleo diet over the last couple of years. But a few months back had really bad gas when the only foods I are were my usual safe veges, and a lot of meat (because you're often hungry on a Paleo diet and animal protein is the only thing that fills you up). I thought at the time the gas was because meat is constipating, but then wondered how that worked. Normal people get constipated too, but don't have the gas we do. I did some searching and found that meat can cause gas as well!

Maybe up to 20% of meat escapes digestion and can putrefy in the colon. All protein contains sulphur but meat and fish seem to be the highest in sulphur (apart from Carrageenan but I'll come to that in a minute).

The products of undigested meat can be metabolised by bacteria into ammonia and hydrogen sulphide which can damage the intestinal cells. It's believed that too much meat can be a factor in colitis and inflammatory bowel disease.

So meat isn't a safe IBS food after all. It might be just as fermentable as FODMAPs and starches for some people. I do find that if I just have a small amount of meat daily I'm fine. It's when I eat too much protein that I have problems the next day.

There's not much on sulphur intolerance on the IBS boards. All of the attention goes to the sugars (FODMAPs and starch - and there's not much on starch either). Sulphur is part of proteins, and this is the best link for a comprehensive list of foods high & low in sulphur.

http://apjcn.nhri.org.tw/server/info/books-phds/books/foodfacts/html/data/data5g.html

I found an even older study (1939) which listed gelatine at 1500 mgs and mustard powder at 900 mgs (per 100 grams). But the real shocker was carrageenan at over 5000 mg. Carrageenan is an indigestible polysaccharide - some call it a sulfated galactan (a bit like a super FODMAP).

Carrageenan is found in non-dairy milks (almond, soy etc), ice-cream, and even in processed meats. It's a standard food thickener but many think it should be banned.

Back to sulphur. It's interesting if you have a look at the above link that all the really delicious seafood (crab, lobster, scallops, prawns) are the highest in sulphur. Also, it might be coincidence, but all of the FODMAP vegetables are also fairly high in sulphur (but still not as high as the animal proteins). Another reason to try to stick with salads and low FODMAP veges. Really, the best diet for IBS, if you can tolerate the fibre, is low FODMAP veges and a small amount of meat and fish daily. You have no idea what's in processed food so just don't eat the stuff.


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## Aislynne

I see alot of the comments about how dangerous going on a low suffer diet but I have no choice as I am allergic to all suffer..Before I hear that is impossible let me tell you its not. Due to a very high fever of almost 108 degrees and yes I not only survived but we figured out that my genetic make was changed and now I have been a mystery patient my whole life.

So when I was 19 we figured out that I was allergic to mag sulfate, then when I was about 39 I got this mystery illness every six months I would throw up even at the smell of food. By the time I was 41 my boyfriend at the time who used to be an analyst in the military started writing down everything until one day he went to spoil me and got me a fizzy ball for my bath. I put it in the water waited a couple mins got in and in 30 seconds was covered in hives. I asked him if it was mag sulfate he said no it was sodium sulfate. The light bulb went on and he told me to shower and come out to see him. He had a box of matches and asked me to take a whiff and I did instantly had blisters inside my nose. Soon after that I found out I blistered when I started to eat garlic..then it started coming out to any medication with a sulfur molecule in it.

I am now 52 years old and I cannot walk near any place that has garlic heavily in their menus, So there are people that have no choice but to eliminate sulfur from their lives. No one understands what it is like to be told that everything you love you can no longer have.


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## CalmWaters

Guys, it's funny because I have tried all these stupid diets and gave up as my attempts to reduce sulfur only increased the amount of flatulence by eating a vegan diet with low sulfur foods. Any root vegetables like potato, carrots, anything with starch will eventually be consumed by bacteria in the colon and make you gassy. Yes, it might reduce the smell a little but it won't stop you from ripping ass. So if sulfur causing bacteria are the problem, why not reduce them instead?


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## Jonasbonus2

I think the largest component is altering the gut microbiome to reduce the smell. Im consuming a diet of kiwi, white pasta, and bananas with romaine lettuce right now and its working pretty well. Supplementing with activated charcoal, chlorophyll, and Nullo. Its kept the smell at maybe 15% of the worst I had. Still leaking, but its somewhat( somewhat...) manageable.

I dont have a problem with starchy fruits( bananas, carrots) because even if they may give more gas, they still cause a shift in the gut microbiome away from a bad smell. I had more of a problem with sweet potatoes and starchy stuff like that. I think the goal should be to optimize the micro biome with a lowish( not necessarily low) sulfur diet and healthy fruits/veggies/supplements. Aloe Vera juice helps as well. Its a whole process that may take a while.

Kiwis are probably the most affective fruit at reducing the smell. Aloe Vera juice works really well too. Bananas arent as good unless you eat them before a meal. Not good after snack. Its a complicated thing at any rate but I think its manageable with painful attention to detail.


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