# IBS or Candida



## kpdefina

I have suffered with IBS for the past 9 years, mostly pain, bloating andconstipation. I can usually eat things to make me use my bowels but everythingseems to make the pain worse that allows me to stay regular. I have eventravelled to Sydney in Australia and had a Human Probiotic Infusion (HPI) whichdid absolutely nothing. I have had every test or investigation possible and onlyever been told I have IBS although there has always been things that do not addup with my tests or investigations that no one can explain.I am now wondering if all my IBS symptoms are related to Candida etc. I did thespit test first thing today and literally within 30 seconds I had long stringsreaching all the way down to the bottom of the glass of water. I know thatfruit, lactose and cabohydrates are a problem for me and have been for the last9 years. Has anyone else has similiar symptoms as myself and do you need to goto the extreme of buying something like Threelac to get rid of the candida orcan it be controlled by diet alone. What ever I have has destroyed my entirelife and I do not know what to do or where to turn next, can someone pleaseshare similiar experiences or offer some advice who knows about this sort ofstuff.RegardsPedro


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## frantic1980

Before I discovered I had SIBO, I thought it was candida. I went to my doctor, he laughed at me and told me that candida infection is only a problem for people who have a serverely compromised immune system, e.g. HIV patients.I didn't believe him and started to take candida remedies from my local health store. They provided noticable relief and I was sure that this supported my theory that I had candida. Then I got an ear infection and needed some antibiotics, I was terrified about taking them: after all I believed that candida was overgrowing because of a previous course of antibiotics had wiped out my flora. In the end I had to take the antibiotics as I was deaf in one ear. I expected my candida to get worse on the antibiotics but something strange happened - my symptoms cleared up completely.I investigated further and found out that antibiotics only act on Bacteria, not fungus. So I found out that my problem was caused by bacteria not candida.Having researched it further, 99% of the professional medical community believe that candida infection of the intestines is a quack-theory. It has never been proved to exist. and the only people who will tell you it exists are quack doctors like naturopaths etc etc. The treatments that the quack doctors will give you for candida also act on bacteria - Grapefruit seed extract, oregano oil, ginger, garlic. Which is why it seems to clear it up.Yes we all know women (and occassionally men) sometimes get Thrush infections when they take antibiotics.... possibly antibiotics might even give you a small thrush infection in your intestines. But 60% of your body's immune system lives in your intestines: it will be kept under control and eradicated by your immune system very quickly. Plus, your intestines are 30 ft long, and bacteria only live in the last 6 feet (the colon).Forget candida - its a quack theory that I also chased for a year.


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## frantic1980

Oh yeah forgot to mention... the "spit test".Ask a 'heathly' friend to do the "candida spit test". They'll have exactly the same results as you.


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## kpdefina

Thanks very much for your comments, I think that what you have said I already knew but probably needed to hear it again. Out of all the supplements etc I have been given over the years nothing has really helped my conditions, mostly made them worse. When I recently went to a different naturopath he suggested this different probiotic in combination with the oregano you mentioned, bloody hell that stuff tastes terrible mixed with water. If all this IBS related stuff is related to Bacteria etc then why did not my Human Probiotic Infusion work ?, I told myself after that I would never again take a probiotic. I can honestly say the only thing that has ever helped my pain and bloating is eliminating all carbs, especially grains. Ofcourse, then how do you use your bowels when your on such a restricted diet, I also can not tolerate fruit (? fructose intolerance). The only thing that is not fibre related or carb related that seems to make me use my bowels regularly is epson salts which makes my pain worse though. So I think for me I need to find this magical thing that will still let me use my bowels daily without giving me the pain whilst not eating the fibre/carbs, easier said than done.pedro


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## frantic1980

Check out my other post "after 5 relapses now cured" it explains everything i know about IBS. Mine cleared up completely 3 weeks ago. I posted that thread yesterday and I'm probably not going to be around on these boards much but i'll check back once in a while to try to answer people's questions if they have any.


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## kpdefina

I read your post and have to say I think there is a lot of sense in what you have said. I would really like to try this but getting the Rifaximin may be a problem. Remember when I said that I had the Human Probiotic Infusion in Sydney (bloody waste of time and money). Before the procedure I took a good course of Rifaximin whilst on a low fibre diet to try and kill off any bacteria in my gut. I remember whilst on this medication it did make it easier for me to use my bowels, same with vancomycin they had me try from sydney as well but did nothing for pain. After the Human Probiotic Infusion did not work Prof Borody had me try the Vancomycin which as I said did not help the pain so he concluded that all my gut pain was not coming from my colon but possibly small bowel. He then suggested I travel to sydney to have a laparoscopy of the small bowel which I did, nothing showed up apart from a hernia that they fixed which has not obviously been the problem either. I can not remember the dose or how long was on the Rifamixin for, I would now have to try and convince my local Gastro Specialist ti give this a try as he would have to prescribe the drugs, no way my GP would. Would you believe that I have some glutamine sitting in the cupboard that I have not used as I keep reading it can cause constipation which is the last thing I need. If I was to take glutamine is there a way other than taking it with porridge you could suggest as I am currently not eating any carbs/grains, makes a big difference to pain.one last thing, am I correct in thinking that you believe that the oregano oil I have just started would not do the same thing as the grapefruit seed extract.would really appreciate your thoughts on this post.pedro


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## Kathleen M.

If the bowels are sensitive to gas volume (which sounds like yours might be from the foods that bother you) the very normal levels of very normal bacteria in the gut will produce more than enough gas to bother the bowels.Sometimes probiotic bacteria can help with that because they don't digest carbs all the way to gas, but for a lot of people that may not be enough.With the after meal problems you may also be sensitive to whenever the colon becomes more active and it is normal for the colon to do that after meals. Some people find smaller more frequent meals helps with that as the longer you wait to eat and the bigger the meal you have will both increase how active the colon is after meals. Unfortunately the natural response is to wait as long as posssible before finally giving in and eating and that can only make things worse.If you only want natural treatments and drugs are out of the question (or there is no doctor in your area that understands some IBSers actually need various prescription medications and won't even let you try any of the drugs that reduce the pain directly) one thing you could try is peppermint oil. This may increase heartburn. Peppermint is a natural antispasmodic. It relaxes the smooth muscles. You could try something like an enteric coated peppermint tablet regularly for a few weeks or do the dosing before meals with a cup of peppermint tea or some candies with real peppermint oil (I find it takes about 2-3 Altoids to have an effect) taken 20-30 minutes before a meal. You want to blunt the response, not try to play catch up after it already got set off.Even with treatments some people just need to stay on a diet low in resistant starch and things like fructose/fructans.What is used for Candida in alt med effects a lot of things, some of which help some people with some symptoms. A lot of the problem is everything that science uses to find massive systemic Candida infections never finds it in the mostly health (you do find it in AIDS patients and people with other severe symptoms) and pretty much every alt med test for Candida finds it in every single person in massive amounts, especially since they always seem to be looking at some very indirect measure. Bacteria make gas from carbs so you don't need yeast inside you to do that.


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## kpdefina

I tried peppermint oil and it nearly killed me, made the pain much worse. I am currently taking moclobermide, an antidepressant that is supposed to have little side effects. Was on endep for about 5 years, helped the pain for a while then it did nothing and of course being a Tricyclic and not SSRI only made it harder to use my bowels. Have also tried SSRIs and have either given me to bade side effects or done nothing to help, not even zoloft helped me use my bowels or had any other positive effect. At least the moclobermide has not affected my bowels either way and have not had any side effects at all, have only been on the drug for 3 weeks at a low starting dose may increase the dose this week. Being on the endep for so long also messed up up my whole internal clock system and found myself unable to sleep at all. This resulted in me convincing my Dr to allow me to take valium, only 5mg nightly to help sleep in conjunction with the moclobermide. I know it also does help with the pain a little, perhaps something to do with it being a muscle relaxant as well but I dont really know. I just do not know if its worth trying to convince my Dr about the Rifaximin again considering I have already taken it about 18 months ago prior to the Human Probiotic Infusion.Pedro


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## Kathleen M.

If you have a tendency to SIBO (which I don't think changing out the colon bacteria would necessarily cure) you may need antibiotics every few months to keep the small intestine cleared out. Most people will have SIBO come back in a few weeks to a few months so 18 months is definitely long enough down the road to need a retreatment if you do have SIBO issues.I don't know if you can get breath tested where you are to be sure it is SIBO rather than bacteria living where they are supposed to be.


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## kpdefina

I have seen my Gastro specialist today and to my surprise he is prepared to support me in exploring the SIBO possibility. I could have paid for the breathe tests to be mailed out to me from Melbourne, Australia which tests for various sugars and SIBO. Instead, my Gastro has given me some Neomycin which I will be starting tomorrow (500mg twice daily for 12 days), unable apparently to get Rifaximin here in Australia although I have taken it before as I said prior to my Probiotic Infusion (Prof Borody must have his own supply). Has anyone had any luck with neomycin rather than Rifaximin with regards to SIBO ?.pedro


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## frantic1980

I've used Neomycin (because its a lot cheaper than Rifaximin and I was buying them online) it worked just as well as Rifaximin for me. Rifaximin is newer and has fewer side effects which is why it is more expensive and the prefered drug of choice these days but Neomycin works just as well.Neomycin gives me watery diarrhea while I am taking it but everything completely clears up when I stop; so if this happens to you stick to it and see through the course. Its one if the listed side-effects of the drug.I think I also read somewhere that Neomycin is particularly good for IBS-C but it does works on C & D - don't quote me on that I can't remember where I read it.


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## Kathleen M.

Here is a link for the Neomycin-constipation thing.http://www.springerlink.com/content/n07338t8w45u170p/It is one of the antibiotics that tends to be poorly absorbed so does most of it's action inside the colon.


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## kpdefina

Thanks to both of you for your response. I am now wondering do I just take the Neomycin as first planned or combine it with Rifaximin ?. I have a script of Neomycin, 500mg and 25 tablets. My gastro and I decided I would take 500mg twice daily for 12 days. The problem is that although it seems this is a better drug for IBS-C I have read somewhere about a study that Dr Mark Pimentil did on both drugs and found that 1 out of 4 people taking Neomycin improved with their IBS symptoms compared to 3 out of 4 improving with the Rifaximin. Apparently, he says that Neomycin does not kill as much bacteria as Rifaximin which is why the results were as described.see below quotes from Dr Mark PimentilkpdefinaSubjects with diarrhea were the most likely to respond to treatment, Dr. Pimentel said. With neomycin, the response is more often seen in patients whose predominant symptom is constipation. The clinical response rate among those with diarrhea was 49% for those receiving rifaximin compared with 23% of those receiving placebo (P < .05). Bloating was also improved, but not in a statistically significant manner, and the investigators documented no difference in patients with constipation. Q: In your book, you use a specific antibiotic called rifaximin in your treatment protocol. Is there something different or special about this particular antibiotic for treating IBS?A: In the book, I outline the growing data demonstrating that among people with IBS there appears to be bacterial overgrowth, or excessive bacteria in the small intestine. Initially we attempted to treat this condition with an antibiotic called neomycin because it was one of the only antibiotics that stays in the gut, yet does not get into the blood stream. This is very important, considering all the worry about overuse of antibiotics, One of the problems that we face in getting rid of gut bacteria is that there are so many different kinds of bacteria. Neomycin is not able to treat the full breadth of bacteria there. In fact, in our studies and experience, neomycin has only a 25 percent chance of getting rid of bacterial overgrowth. To put it another way, 1 out of 4AdvertisementClick to learn more... QuantcastIBS patients treated with neomycin feel normal after this treatment, while 3 out of 4 do not. These results were not satisfactory, and so we began to search for other antibiotics that were more effective on gut bacteria. Rifaximin was one of the most promising antibiotics that came from this search. The chemical structure of rifaximin makes it 99.6% non-absorbed. This alone makes rifaximin a superior drug.Rifaximin is highly effective against almost all bacteria in the gut, helping up to 3 out of 4 patients feel normal, instead of the 1 out of 4 IBS patients feeling normal after neomycin.


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## kpdefina

Well I have been to the pharmacy and filled my scripts for both the Neomycin and Rifaximin. I have decided to start taking both of them and give myself the best possible chance of success. I think the Rifaximin says to be taken at least 30 minutes before food where the Neomycin says nothing about food etc. I will be on 600mg of Rifaximin and 1000mg Neomycin daily, will just have to see what happens, should be interesting. I am also on the glutamine, fresh ginger and oregano oil in place of grapefruit seed extract which you are unable to get locally. kpdefina


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## frantic1980

How are you getting on with this, kpdefina?


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## kpdefina

I got that much pain and nausea from the antibiotics I have had to stop them. As if I did not have enough pain already, not sure what to do now. I spoke with the people in Sydney Australia and they said if someone is positive with their breath test for SIBO they get them to follow a strict diet first without the use of antibiotics, perhaps I will have to wait for Dr Mark Pimentils book to arrive and follow is diet protocol to see if that helps alone. The problem is I will have the same old problem, eat the carbs/fibre and go to the toilet with all the pain and bloating or cut them out and have less bloating/pain and then end up just as bad in a day or so because I cant go and I have tried everything known in the way of laxative/fibre supplements to take whilst on a low carb/fibre diet to try and allow me to still go. Sure, some things make me go on this diet like epson salts but make the pain unbearable. I really do think there is no hope for me anymore.kpdefina


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## idkwia

kpdefina - just read this post. How are you getting on now? Did you find out if you had SIBO?If you are still suffering, having read your comments I would like to offer the following things to try:- firstly with regard to fructose intolerance, there is a hospital in Oz that claims to have cured up to 70% of their IBS patients using a FODMAP diet, you can search on the net.Secondly, if you are still struggling with constipation have you been tested for a rectal intussusception, this is done by proctogram?


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