# Misc on Candida



## 18835 (Nov 9, 2006)

Eric, I have to keep my online time short, so forgive the spelling:- Stool tests for candida are unreliable, as they do not shed regularly and many bowel movements (submitted for stool tests) will not show overgrowth even if there is one.- I have read all kinds of controversy as to whether blood tests are useful. Bailed on on them, because the issue that I'm looking at is overgrowth in the intestines, which does not even have anything to do with systemic blood-borne infections of candida. Ie: symptoms are from overgrowth in intestines.- My toxic symptoms include the following, but list isn't complet due to lack of time: burning eyes, fatigue, hyperactivity, headache. Nearly ALL of my toxic symptoms are relieved by 50% as soon as I do a plain water enema (with slight amount of salt in water just to bring it up to close to what body salinity would be). Those symptoms then gradually return over the next day or so.- in the past I have tried a special diet that is supposed to not feed candida (which of course would perhaps not feed other bad bugs), and noted certain specific improvements as long as I was on the diet. So could not tell if improvement was due to killing off candida, or some other bug. BUT recently am trying said diet again, this time taking two prescription antifungals, and these antifungals do NOT kill bacteria. The people I mentioned in another posting, who I believe I'm similar to, improved much more when taking those antifungals. Ergo: it must have been a fungus problem. I'm only into my third day of those Rx's, so will keep this board posted.No, candida isn't what "everyone has", but it certainly isn't just a benign thing that doesn't affect anyone, either. Also see my post in the recent thread on Vivonex and candida.P.S. (for Eric again) You're right about motility medication being a possible solution, it could be if this isn't a candida or other bug problem. I'm planning on getting some Zelnorm and trying it, but won't quite my anti-candida plan until I've given the anti-candida program a long trial. As posted above, I know that it isn't everyone's issue, but have some reason to think it may be mine, and just started a stronger anti-candida plan than I've done in the past. Maybe I'll add zelnorm to the candida program once the zelnorm arrives (it'll take me weeks to get it) - that'll be interesting to see how that addition changes things, if it does.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

I posted this on the other threadQuone, have you ever had a colonoscopy? "Stool tests for candida are unreliable, as they do not shed regularly and many bowel movements (submitted for stool tests) will not show overgrowth even if there is one."The thing is candida is a visable organism. There are also different kinds of course.The medical establishment doesn't believe in the kind were talking about and it can't be tested for and can been seen under a electronmicroscope? It would seem the only way to have this diagnoses is to self diagnose. Yes?Not sure where you got this information from really. The bowel wall is constantly shedding it cells. How does candida stay there? Or not be seen? How is candida toxic if you can find it in the blood or on stool testing. They do a lot of research on bacteeria and the colon, including conditions like IBD and all kninds of conditions as well as IBS. Yet they don'ty recogonized the kind of candida your talking about. A friend of mine worked doing colonoscopies did not beliege in that condition. And others are using electron microscopes. Yet no overgrowth? What keeps them in check from a major overgrowth?Also the gut brain runs a program on pathogens in the gut, it developed to expell pathogens from the body as quickly as possible causes, d, so it would seem even more unlikely to cause c, that would not be benefical to the organism.There also from above"Candida is a normal part of the bowel flora (the organisms that naturally live inside our intestines, and are not parasitic)"Not to mention its there for a reason to fight bad bacteria."It has many functions inside our digestive tract, one of them to recognize and destroy harmful bacteria."Is killing it a good idea or does that open a person up to other harmful bacteria that it defends a person from?On these symptoms "burning eyes, fatigue, hyperactivity, headache." could all possible be explained more easily perhaps. One might be allergies for example. There you might be thinking yu are somehow allergic to candida? That might be a possiblity perhaps. Those are common symptoms to a whole list of conditions though and might not all be describe as toxic or even related to the same problems. IBS and for some other reasons and conditions we have seen on the bb that low sugar diets can help IBS, but for a different reason then candida."See my post in the recent thread on Vivonex and candida."I have to say without references and what I have read and that is quite a bit actually on it and people I have talked to who do the testing, something is amiss.Without the refernces its anecdotal really. Where is the research and the studies? In the last five years regardles of IBS or other conditions have learned a lot about the colon and how it works. Not everything but a lot, especially with new technology. I can say I am no expert either, perhaps some people are allergic to it somehow, but would seem to cause other symptoms oragnic in nature.If I had C personally the first test other the a colonoscopy would be a sitz marker test. That is a major test for c. What if your treating the wrong problems and your doing all this and have something else? For me that is why testing is majorally important and working with a good doctor.Lets say for arguements sake you don't have candida but one of the much more common reasons for c, like pelvic floor dyssynergia or functional constipation which are very common problems. On the amount of antibiotics you took, were you checked for C-diff that is common in such cases. Sugar could be a sugar absorbition problem or sugar feed the normal bowel bacteria and cause more gas and pressure in the gut. Reducing that even in IBS helps some people. The gut works by pressure sensitive cells. But on CConstipation can be classified into 3 broad categories: normal-transit constipation, slow-transit constipation, and disorders of defecation or rectal evacuation.8 Normal-transit constipation is the most common type. Patients report feeling constipated even though their stools pass through the colon at a normal rate and the frequency of movements is within the normal range. Patients may perceive their bowel habits as abnormal because of abdominal pain, bloating, straining, or hard stools.8 Patients with IBS have symptoms similar to those of normal-transit constipation; however, abdominal pain, in association with changes in stool frequency and consistency, must be present before IBS can be diagnosed.9Slow-transit constipation is caused by impaired phasic colonic motor activity, delayed emptying of the proximal colon, and reduced high-amplitude peristaltic contractions after meals.8 It is most common in young women, and onset usually occurs at puberty. Patients report infrequent BMs (<1 per week), although straining is not a common symptom in this form of constipation. Disorders of defecation are usually due to dysfunction of the pelvic floor or anal sphincter. Failure of the rectum to empty effectively may result from ineffective coordination of the abdominal, anorectal, and pelvic floor muscles during defecation.8 Patients with pelvic floor disorders typically describe an inability to defecate despite a sense of urgency, although they often report straining on defecation and the need for manual digitation."Have you ever had a sitz marker test?I hope this post comes out the right way, just trying to help so you know. I understand its your body.Have you seen this book?Book ReviewCandida and Candidiasisfrom Emerging Infectious DiseasesPosted 10/01/2002Mary E. BrandtRichard A. Calderone, editorAmerican Society for Microbiology Press, Washington, 2001, 472 pagesYeast of the genus Candida have exploded into prominence in recent years as opportunistic and nosocomial fungal pathogens. However, the most recent textbook on these organisms was written in 1988. Candida and Candidiasis is a worthy successor in providing comprehensive information on the biology of these organisms.A total of 28 chapters cover the general properties, virulence factors, cell biology, immunity, genomics, diseases, and laboratory aspects of Candida species, with particular emphasis on its most prominent member, Candida albicans. The strongest chapters are those covering research aspects of these organisms. Complex subjects like the chemistry of the cell wall, host recognition and adherence, the cell biology of the yeast-hyphal transformation, and extracellular hydrolases as virulence factors in C. albicans are well summarized with clear, useful graphics and current references. The book is beautifully laid out, with a series of color plates that help describe phenotype switch variants and chromosome maps.The clinical chapters appear rather superficial for an infectious diseases clinician but may be useful to a student seeking basic material. The chapter on identification and subtyping contains information available in other sources for less than the cost of this book. A discussion of current practices in antifungal susceptibility testing of Candida species would have been helpful. Chapters 2 and 4 contain repetitious material, including photographs of C. dubliniensis. A consolidated chapter on the epidemiology of Candida infections should be considered for the next edition. The chapters covering the cell biology are most useful, either as a comprehensive overview or as a reference text for researchers and students interested in the biology of these organisms.Mary E. Brandt, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, Georgia, USA Emerg Infect Dis 8(8), 2002. Â© 2002 Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)also medscape has a lot of info on candidafor example"Changing Microbiologic Spectrum of CandidaAlthough there are more than 100 described species of Candida, only four are commonly associated with infection: C. albicans, C. tropicalis, C. parapsilosis, and C. glabrata.10 Of these, C. albicans has been isolated from more than 60% of candidal infections; the other three major species are seen at rates varying from 5% to 20%. Mucosal colonization by C. tropicalis, a virulent organism, frequently leads to invasive infection. C. glabrata and C. parapsilosis appear to be relatively less virulent,111 and the latter typically causes infection in association with prosthetic materials (e.g., catheters) or glucose-rich intravenous solutions.10 Finally, C. kruseiand C. lusitaniae rarely cause disease, being isolated from fewer than 1% of cultures.10 *The epidemiology of candidiasis has changed, with reduced rates of C. albicans in favor of other candidal species-in particular, C. glabrataand C. krusei.*112 This change is important because C. krusei and several strains of C. glabrataare highly resistant to the triazoles such as fluconazole and itraconazole.10,112A study by the NNIS group evaluated 1,579 bloodstream isolates of Candida species obtained from more than 50 hospitals in the United States over a 7-year period (1992â€"1998) to detect trends in species distribution and susceptibility to fluconazole. C. albicans accounted for 52% of isolates, followed by C. glabrata(18%), C. parapsilosis (15%), C. tropicalis (11%), and C. krusei (2%). Since 1995, C. glabrata has been more prevalent than C. parapsilosis. The susceptibility of all Candida species to fluconazole has remained stable.113a"I highlighted that one sentence because it was interesting.http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/535493http://www.medscape.com/gastroenterologyI also posted that new thread on here on gut bacteria, you might be interested in.


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## 18835 (Nov 9, 2006)

Hi Eric!To answer your questions as best I can:1. No, I have never had a colonoscopy. Too many people Iâ€™ve talked to have â€œtest after testâ€ and what they get out of it is a verdict they already know, â€œyou have IBSâ€, and a prescription for a drug that is supposed to cover up the symptoms. Yes I think one colonoscopy is a good idea, just to see, but I wonâ€™t do it right now â€“ the candida meds Iâ€™m trying have next to no side effects, are extremely safe, and the diet is certainly nutritious. Iâ€™d rather try this plan for now.2. I meant that the candida do not shed into the stools regularly, I didnâ€™t mean to make it sound as though I was discussing the bowel wall shedding (I can see how my lousy sentence structure would have misled the reader though). 3. As for your question â€œ How does candida stay there?â€ I donâ€™t know. 4. Your reference to the â€œ gut brainâ€ makes me laugh that the medical doctors have come up with that phrase; our bodies are far from smart enough to do everything logically when they get off kilter ;-) Iâ€™ve read that Animals in the wild, with supposedly perfect diets, also get parasites at times â€“ their bodies arenâ€™t smart enough to figure out a way to get rid of them."Candida is a normal part of the bowel floraâ€ I really have to answer that one with strong emphasis: ONLY IN SMALL NUMBERS! Sorry to shout. Your comment that it is there to fight bad bacteria fits with the theory that an underlying bacterial problem could be what causes candida to overgrow in the first place. But that doesnâ€™t explain why people who really had candida problems, who healed after taking antifungal meds and the diet, why those people first got sick after taking strong antibiotics. Answer to that one is that the antibiotics killed off their good flora, allowing candida to have a party and wildly overgrow. Maybe those same people had a low level bacterial problem beforehand, that didnâ€™t happen to respond to the antibiotics they happened to take for some other problem. Hope this makes sense. The book you mentioned, â€œCandida and Candidiasisâ€, looks like a more scientific take on the subject than some of the books out there â€“ glad to see that. There IS scienfific basis out there, but few compilations of the info in book form in recent years, and the older candida books are largely anectodal.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:But that doesnâ€™t explain why people who really had candida problems, who healed after taking antifungal meds and the diet, why those people first got sick after taking strong antibiotics. Answer to that one is that the antibiotics killed off their good flora, allowing candida to have a party and wildly overgrow.


Who are these people and how was their "candida" documented? The diet makes no sense as Candida feeds on people, not on what a person eats. The idea that candida has a party and wildy overgrow in the gut is a joke. There are a 100 trillion bacteria in the gut and what, let's say, 10 million fungi. Antibiotics will take out a chunk of that bacteria, but it's peanuts compared to fungi. And fungi is not a being player pathogenically. Clostridia dificile is. And the reason for that is that it produces a potent toxin.


> quote:My toxic symptoms include the following,


Not so for fungi.


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## 18835 (Nov 9, 2006)

Well, flux, I wish you would stop following me around and harrassing me. Here is a reprint of my reply, on another thread to you. I am finished with reading your posts, resenting your statements like "...is a joke". reprint of earlier post in another thread that I wrote to "Flux":You are welcome to your opinion, however there are even a few M.Ds in the U.S, not mention many in europe, who say the opposite. I'm not your personal researcher - if you wish to find out more you will need to do so yourself: amidst all the candida-theory-bashing from most U.S. doctors, there are a few very good sources of info on the opposite of the coin, including some written by M.Ds, that are not just the wild speculation that you may associate this topic with.I don't have the time to type in point-by-point replies as you do, my internet time is limited. Go to a large bookstore and read about it if you, or anyone, wants info that is more in line with what some of the European countries are doing on this topic. The bookstore source is better for M.D. views on this side of the topic, than the Internet is.If you only want the "AMA" current point of view, then fine, that's your choice. I am finished with this thread due to needing to spend time discussing other topics that I have not yet researched to my own satisfaction.


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## Rick (never give up) (Oct 7, 2005)

> quote:The diet makes no sense as Candida feeds on people, not on what a person eats.


Hi flux, your statement intrigued me. I used to think also that yeasts feed on food as well, so what do you mean when you say that yeasts feed on you?Just wondering.


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## Nanobug (Nov 7, 2006)

> quote:I used to think also that yeasts feed on food as well, so what do you mean when you say that yeasts feed on you


What, are you saying you never saw that famous movie, "The Attack of the Giant Yeast!"


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:I'm not your personal researcher - if you wish to find out more you will need to do so yourself:


It is up to the person making the outrageous claims to provide the evidence..


> quote:amidst all the candida-theory-bashing from most U.S. doctors,


This if false.


> quote:The bookstore source is better for M.D. views on this side of the topic, than the Internet is.


Both sources can be equally corrupted. The best source depends is from experimental evidence: peer-reviewed journals.


> quote:If you only want the "AMA" current point of view


There are no point of view; there are facts and non-facts.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:The Attack of the Giant Yeast


A real movie, too: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055894/


> quote:your statement intrigued me. I used to think also that yeasts feed on food as well, so what do you mean when you say that yeasts feed on you?


In a petri dish, of course. But if they are infecting a person, they make like plants and root into the underlying substrate with their hyphae. The underlying substrate would be the epithelial tissue of the gut. So they feed off this tissue, not the what's in the gut lumen. See the middle picture at http://www.gcd.med.umn.edu/html/faculty%20pages/gale.html and the accompanying text for details.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

as far as IBS is concerned here with the epithelium."The lining of the colon called the epithelium, which is affected by the immune and nervous systems, regulates the flow of fluids in and out of the colon. In IBS, the epithelium appears to work properly."http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/ibs/Qone, I wrote some info but lost it.However no joke about the gut brain."Gut ThoughtsThough few know about it, humans have a second brain that handles most of the body's digestive functions. Study of the enteric nervous system is a rapidly growing specialty, offering insight into malfunctions of the "gut brain" as well as the more complex cranial brain. Digestion is such a prosaic function that most people prefer not to think about it. Fortunately, they don't have to â€" at least not with the brain in their heads. Though few know about it, humans (and other animals) have a second brain that handles most digestive functions. Deep in your gut lies a complex self-contained nervous system containing more nerve cells than the spinal cord, and indeed more neurons than all the rest of the peripheral nervous system. There are over 100 million nerve cells in the human small intestine alone. Malfunctions of this "gut brain" may be involved in irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), ""At least 500 different species of deadly bacteria have been found to inhabit a person's colon at any given time; "traveler's diarrhea" often results when this mix is changed through exposure to new pathogens. If this happens, the gut runs a program designed to expel as much of its contents as quickly as possible â€" unpleasant for the vacationer, but much better than a fatal infection. "Another program involves a flood of serotonin throughout the entire circuit, which produces the digestive pattern that mixes and stirs the contents," says Wood."http://www.kiwiterapi.dk/whiplash/frames/gutthoughts.htm


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