# THROW AWAY YOUR PROBIOTICS!



## frantic1980

Good lord, I've been off the board for about a year, and came in to answer a question that I got in a private message.When person asked me "why do bacterial researchers say start with antibiotics and then move to probiotics?" I wondered if she was talking about Ian Ramsay bacterial expert researcher, extrordinaire. See my thread from last year: http://www.ibsgroup.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=102286I'm not going to get sucked back into a debate about this. As far as I know I am the only person on here who actually went to the trouble of summarising all his knowledge and research about how he beat SIBO, including citations and links where I found the information and how I applied it to cure my SIBO. Cutting out probiotics was pretty fundamental and is recommended by Pimentel. Pimentel says in no uncertain terms that although probiotics appear to allevitate the symptoms, they only serve to prolong the disease. Read the quotes and the citations in the post. Ian says in page 5 that he's got a leaky IC valve. so his situation is not even relevant to a normal SIBO case!!!The only further piece of knowledge I would add to my previous post..... A lady messaged me to tell me that she had successfully beat SIBO, the bad bacteria were gone from her small intestine (negative HBT). But she still had symptoms so she tried a high colonic hydrotherapy which she did at home using her shower hose or something (if you do this I would suggest sterilising the pipe first - maybe let the hot tap run for a couple of mins before cooling it down for use). She said after she did this she had perfect digestion for 2 days but then her symptoms gradully came back. I said to her "that would indicate you've got bad bacteria in your LARGE intestine as well" - perhaps c-diff from the antibiotics or maybe just the bad bacteria E-Coli or whaever was still in her large intestine in high numbers. I said try doing it every 2 or 3 days, then every 4 days keep flushing out the toxins & bacteria before they have a chance to return. And after about 3 weeks doing this she said she said she had gone for over a week with perfect digestion and didn't require any more colon hydras. So basically in the case of this lady, the antibiotics HAD got rid of her SIBO, but either because of the antibiotics or just the E-Coli (or whatever) that caused the SIBO her colon bacteria were all screwed up. But she never ever used probiotics. Actually since I wrote my original post they have since discovered that the purpose of the Appendix is to replace gut flora: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21153898/ so there is absolutely no reason to take probiotics at all - the small intestine is sterile (supposed to have no bacteria). And the large intestine is replenished from the appendix.Me, I've never touched a probiotic since I wrote the post and I never ever ever ever ever will again. Oh and one last tip I start every day with a bowl of oats boiled in water till they go thick. I put a tiny splash of milk in the bowl. I feel these scrape my intestines clean every day and absorb any bad toxins out of the gut and gives me good regular bowel movements once a day. Just think.... before all this 'good bacteria' 'probiotic' stuff that sprouted up about 20 years ago, did you ever hear about IBS? Parents/Grandparents? People in history? What if these probiotics are actually causing all this in a new generation of health conscious adults? - I don't know - maybe? I think probiotcs are the most unnatural thing you can ingest. Our species evolved over Millions of years without probiotic pills, so we don' t need them now either.Anyway, good luck everyone! I'm bailing out now. I lost most of my 20s to this disease. I'm 30 next month and I can't quite believe it - I feel that there is a gaping void in my life that I lost to IBS/SIBO and I'm like 'woah how did this happen?' I'm making the most of life these days Life is good, I started a business which has just started making profit, I can bench-press my 1.5 times my body weight and I've got tons of energy and a spark for life. You will get this back eventually too!If anything I hope my success gives you hope. You can beat SIBO - I lived with it for 8 years!Good luck, keep the faith, you'll beat it eventually! http://www.ibsgroup.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=102286Bye!


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## Kathleen M.

IBS has been in the medical literature under one name or another since the ancient Greeks. Even in the modern medical literature (mid 1800's) it is clear that IBS was commonly seen and a variety of theories for why were proposed. Many of the descriptions almost sound like they read the Rome Criteria long before the first meeting of that group. The name IBS was invented to describe the syndrome around 1970 so before then no one heard of the name even if lots of people got diagnosed with spastic colitis or any other name before they coined the term IBS.Humans have eaten fermented food products (most of which are loaded with probiotics) for thousands of years because it preserves food and the probiotic bacteria when used to seed the next batch of fermented what not keep the bacteria that will kill you from growing in there. Fermenting milk or vegetables was really common before refrigeration. Sauerkraut and Kim chee are some non-dairy probiotic foods.That being said, some people do well with probiotics and some people do not. If they do not help you, or make you worse, then don't do them. If they help you then take them.


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## frantic1980

Just thought i'd paste in the question I answered in a PM


> Happy to hear u have been cured.. But I have few questions...Why does not dr pimentel term sibo as cured.. He still says that with this drug u can be symptom free for upto 10 weeks... Not for years... He says to repeat this course every few months as sibo will return...Then how did u manage to get rid of sibo...


I wasn't aware he said that. I read his book over 3 times and don't remember him ever saying that. Unless he's updated his book in a later edition. Perhaps what you are referring to is that IBS can't be cured because it a 'syndrome' - a number of symptoms, but with an unknown cause. If you know the underlying cause eg SIBO, you can cure that. Its like saying: "can you cure an itch" - well no, you can't cure an itch. But if your itch is caused by dermatitis then you can cure the dermatitis and your itch will go away.


> What diet u followed during yr course and for how long...


I think i was on low carb high protein for a good while after it. It was summer so I was working on my beach body







Lots of Meat, Chicken, fish, egg white protein (the lactose in whey protein didn't agree - although I drink whey protein now). There's a lot of info in the book and in the post. Its more about what not to eat. SIBO is tricky because bacteria feed on carbs - if the bacteia eat your carbs then your body is being starved of them. So you crave carbs and go eat a whole pack of cookies or a tub of icecream and you give the SIBO more food to grow.


> Did anyone else followed yr course and sustained results for so long...


Its not my course it was invented by Dr Mark Pimmentel and I read it from his book, a new IBS solution. I picked up extra info over the years like Glutamine - as a body builder I know its the most common amino acid and essential for growth and repair. I also found out the the stomach lining absorbs glutamine directly to repair itself. I think this is a pretty fundamental part of repairing your gut enough to protect itself again (combined with antibiotics and diet) there's a citation on the post.


> Why do researchers believe to take this antibiotic course and to sustain results for longer take probiotic after that...


This is not the recommended approach by pimmentel. He says probiotics should be avoided. The only place you need bacteria is in your colon. So unless you are having some kind of probiotic enema then you shouldn't be taking probiotics. Especially if you have sibo.


> Pls reply me as I also want to get rid of this sibo...Thanks a tonVicky


You'll get there! You CAN beat this, and I cant describe how liberating and free you are when you do. Just keep trying - and whatever anybody on here tells you.... probiotics are not the answer. You can't cure a bacterial overgrowth with MORE BACTERIA - its CRAZY TALK!Good luck, and don't stop trying till you beat it.


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## Kathleen M.

If you read the medical literature beyond just the book Pimentel published several years ago you find some recent studies show that for some people for IBS with some probiotics there* is* data that suggests that sometimes probiotics can extend remission.So those doctors that do that believe that data. There is also data that predates Pimentel's book that indicate that in animals probiotics in feed can reduce SIBO.And again. No one thing helps everybody. If you find they do not help you, do not take them. If they find you are one of the ones that are helped (and Pimentel in interviews has admitted he believes at least some of the research that for some IBSers probiotics do reduce symptoms) then keep taking them.It really would be loverly if every disease in humans had a single one size fits all answer. The same variability that makes us a numerous and successful species, also means that everyone is a little bit different and we will always have to work through to find which approach works for us as an individual. Now we are similar enough that usually one of things that works for some others will work for us, but no one should assume everyone will have the exact same response they do for any given treatment. Every treatment helps some and hurt others. I'm not going to give up something that works for me because it doesn't work for someone else. And I won't keep doing something that helps others, if it doesn't work for me.


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## IanRamsay

Spouting ####? come again?


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## IBD/IBS Author

When person asked me "why do bacterial researchers say start with antibiotics and then move to probiotics?" I wondered if she was talking about Ian Ramsay bacterial expert researcher, extrordinaire. And I come on the board and see he's still spouting his #### about probiotics!! frantic - You are allowed to have your opinion. But if you continue to belittle or defame other BB participants I will close this discussion and ban you from the board. This does not follow our rules for conduct.


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## frantic1980

Indeed, its just frustrating to have gone to the trouble last year of writing all my info including citations and quotations and sources. to be knocked down by someone who claims to be an "expert" but does not understand simple concepts like gram positive/negative - and then for the post to be shut down just as people were starting to contribute their own findings.I don't have the time, motivation or energy to contribute anything further to IBS - I just find it sad that my original post was shut down and is now relegated to page 5 where nobody can find it. Most people just get on with their lives when they get rid of SIBO and don't bother to share their success.PS The site has a bug now - the quote function doesn't seem to work in Firefox browser.


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## Kathleen M.

> PS The site has a bug now - the quote function doesn't seem to work in Firefox browser.


Quote feature works just fine for me, but you do have to hit the add reply button after you hit the quote button under any given person's post. Not sure why you are having problems.



> Testing the quote feature for stuff I type rather than hitting the quote button on someone else's post


I don't know what your expectations of posting were, but no one ever gets universal agreement that their experience with any given disease and any given treatment.We have had people here who have SIBO that do not get relapses from thier probiotic use and do seem to benefit from it as do some people in some clinical trials. So I can't say that your experience is exactly what will happen to every person. That being said. If you find probiotics make you worse (and some people do) then don't take them. Just please do not assume everyone will share your experience.Unfortunately some threads get into personal attacks or other violations of the terms of service and we would rather close them than delete them when it happens as usually before things got to that point there is useful info on them. It also helps, IMO, people see what is allowed and what is not on this site. Sometimes something gets so bad we have to remove it. There is a link to the TOS on every page if anyone forgets what they agreed to when they registered. We also have posting guidelines in the Announcements section http://www.ibsgroup.org/forums/index.php?showforum=76


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