# What is Homeopathy?



## painter (Aug 20, 2003)

As Kel posted earlier about this topic I thought I would open it up. I am very mistrustful of medical treatment for physical ailments as I think they simply mask underlying problems... What is homeopathy and does it work? Is there a natural alternative? Is magnesium safe even though it is a natural element?


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

An entire website is dedicated to exposing this: http://www.homeowatch.org/


> quote:medical treatment for physical ailments as I think they simply mask underlying problems


Medical treatments do aim to treat the underlying problem. However, those that actually do depends on how far advanced our knowledge of the condition is. For bacterial infections, they almost always do. IBS is more complex, but that has changed in recent years.


> quote: Is magnesium safe even though it is a natural element?


It is unless you consume large amounts.


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## meribaibs (Jan 18, 2004)

I suspect the next 300 posts will NOT be about constipation. Oh, craps...!


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## meribaibs (Jan 18, 2004)

Or C.S. Lewis...


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## I'll B Snookered (Apr 9, 2004)

Ah, but the Voyage of the Dawn Treader is a metaphor for a piece of food traveling through the alimentary canal, but it cannot find the exit.


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## ghitta (Jul 6, 2002)

painter, i will answer your Q: homeopathy (google it, as well, for more details) is a treatment whereby a little bit of what would cause illness in a well person will cure the illness in question in someone sick. when i say a little bit, i mean extremely small amounts. minerals, metals, plants and so forth are all used. in both western and eastern europe the technique of homeopathy has been used for over a century and is dispensed by MDs only who besides their allopathic training are trained as well in homeopathy. both doctors' consults and the medecine itself are reimbursed by european health systems. i am giving you an oversimplified definition, please google to get more. millions of people are treated and cured by this method but in north america the allopathic drug lobby battles forever in washington over the issue of homeopathy. please pay no attention to Flux who is clearly out of control on this issue.


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## ghitta (Jul 6, 2002)

Painter - sorry - here is a fine link for you that describes homeopathy very well and in simple terms:www.homeopathic.org/whatis.htmg-


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## meribaibs (Jan 18, 2004)

Thanks for pointing that out. It seems to be a recurring metaphor in all the Narnia books: The promise of a new beginning through efficient waste disposal. May we find that ever elusive exit.


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## chas14 (Aug 5, 2002)

Homeopathic medicine lost out in this country not because of the AMA or the drug lobby - there was no drug lobby when the last homeopathic medical school closed - but because medicine adopted the scientific method of controlled experimentation as a way of proof for it's treatments. There are many controlled studies and replications for all medical treatments now in use, but virtually no acceptable controlled studies for Homeopathic treatments.


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## simon2004 (Jan 23, 2004)

....the scientific method of controlled experimantation as a way of PROOF for it's treatments?? Then why do these "treatments" have side effects? Where kind of proof are you relating to? Acceptable by who....the FDA?? (Federal Drug Administraton )


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: because medicine adopted the scientific method of controlled experimentation as a way of proof for it's treatment


Obviously.


> quote:Then why do these "treatments" have side effects?


Logic?


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: Homeopathic medicine lost out in this country not because of the AMA or the drug lobby - there was no drug lobby when the last homeopathic medical school closed - but because medicine adopted the scientific method of controlled experimentation as a way of proof for it's treatments. There are many controlled studies and replications for all medical treatments now in use, but virtually no acceptable controlled studies for Homeopathic treatments


horse manure.summaries of the three main studies http://www.trusthomeopathy.org/case/cas_met.html Kleijnen 1991British Medical Journal. 107 trials. Criteria-based meta-analysis.  77% are positive  The higher the scientific merit of the study, the more likely it is to show homoeopathy as superior to placebo. The evidence presented in this review would probably be sufficient for establishing homoeopathy as a regular treatment for certain conditions.Boissel 1996Report for European Commission. 15 trials. Very strict inclusion criteria. Meta-analysis; data synthesis by combining the significance levels (p-values) for the primary outcomes from each trial.  Combined p value for the 15 trials was highly significant p=0.0002.  ' There is evidence that homeopathic medicine is more effective than placebo' .  Little evidence of publication bias.  Further high quality studies are needed.Linde 1997Lancet. 89 trials. Meta-analysis; data synthesis by combining the odds ratios.  Combined odds ratio 2.45 (95% CI 2.05, 2.93) in favour of homeopathy.  Odds ratio for 26 best quality studies was 1.66.  No evidence of significant publication bias.  The results are not compatible with the hypothesis that the clinical effects of homeopathy are completely due to placebo.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

J. Kleijnen, P. Knipschild, G. ter Riet, Clinical Trials of Homeopathy British Medical Journal, February 9, 1991, 302:316-323. This is the most widely cited meta-analysis of clinical research prior to 1991. This meta-analysis reviewed 107 studies of homeopathic medicines, 81 of which (or 77%) showed positive effect. Of the best 22 studies, 15 showed efficacy. The researchers concluded: "The evidence presented in this review would probably be sufficient for establishing homeopathy as a regular treatment for certain indications." Further, "The amount of positive evidence even among the best studies came as a surprise to us."


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Homeopathy Proves Effective In Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled Study Contrary to the overwhelming belief of the mainstream medical establishment, results from a recent series of trials suggest that homeopathy is more effective than an inactive pill (placebo) in treating certain ills. Researchers studied 51 patients with perennial hay fever. Twenty-four of the study subjects received daily homeopathy and 27 received a daily placebo treatment during the 4-week study period.  The study was performed to the highest standards of scientific research, being double-blinded, randomized, and placebo-controlled. All of the subjects kept a diary in which they recorded twice daily their nasal air flow measurements and symptoms such as sneezing, runny nose, and eye and chest symptoms. Patients who received homeopathy had a 28% improvement in their nasal air flow whereas those in the placebo group had only a 3% improvement. In comments to Reuters Health, study author Dr. David Reilly of the Glasgow Homoeopathic Hospital states "There are two ways of interpreting the fact that four trials in a row have produced positive results," Either homeopathy works, in which case "we need to explore the clinical potential and the scientific challenges, (or) homeopathy does not work (and) the clinical trial is proving an unreliable tool capable of worrying false positive results."In an accompanying editorial, Tim Lancaster of the Oxford Institute of Health Sciences and Andrew Vickers of Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in New York City, acknowledge that the methods employed by Dr. Reilly and his colleagues "were rigorous and it is unlikely that their results arose from methodological bias." They also admit that if this study can be confirmed by a larger trial it could really change the thinking of mainstream medicine towards homeopathy.British Medical Journal August 19, 2000;321:471-476.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=15105967 Inflamm Res. 2004 Apr;53(5):181-8. Epub 2004 Apr 21. Related Articles, Links Histamine dilutions modulate basophil activation.Belon P, Cumps J, Ennis M, Mannaioni PF, Roberfroid M, Sainte-Laudy J, Wiegant FA.Boiron, 20 rue de la Liberation, 69110, Sainte-Foy-Les-Lyon, France.Background:In order to demonstrate that high dilutions of histamine are able to inhibit basophil activation in a reproducible fashion, several techniques were used in different research laboratories. Objective:The aim of the study was to investigate the action of histamine dilutions on basophil activation. Methods:Basophil activation was assessed by alcian blue staining, measurement of histamine release and CD63 expression. Study 1 used a blinded multi-centre approach in 4 centres. Study 2, related to the confirmation of the multi-centre study by flow cytometry, was performed independently in 3 laboratories. Study 3 examined the histamine release (one laboratory) and the activity of H(2) receptor antagonists and structural analogues (two laboratories). Results:High dilutions of histamine (10(-30)-10(-38) M) influence the activation of human basophils measured by alcian blue staining. The degree of inhibition depends on the initial level of anti-IgE induced stimulation, with the greatest inhibitory effects seen at lower levels of stimulation. This multicentre study was confirmed in the three laboratories by using flow cytometry and in one laboratory by histamine release. Inhibition of CD63 expression by histamine high dilutions was reversed by cimetidine (effect observed in two laboratories) and not by ranitidine (one laboratory). Histidine tested in parallel with histamine showed no activity on this model. Conclusions:In 3 different types of experiment, it has been shown that high dilutions of histamine may indeed exert an effect on basophil activity. This activity observed by staining basophils with alcian blue was confirmed by flow cytometry. Inhibition by histamine was reversed by anti-H2 and was not observed with histidine these results being in favour of the specificity of this effect We are however unable to explain our findings and are reporting them to encourage others to investigate this phenomenon.PMID: 15105967 [PubMed - in process]


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6882/3/7 Ameliorating effect of microdoses of a potentized homeopathic drug, Arsenicum Album, on arsenic-induced toxicity in miceArsenic in groundwater and its accumulation in plants and animals have assumed a menacing proportion in a large part of West Bengal, India and adjoining areas of Bangladesh. Because of the tremendous magnitude of the problem, there seems to be no way to tackle the problem overnight. Efforts to provide arsenic free water to the millions of people living in these dreaded zones are being made, but are awfully inadequate. In our quest for finding out an easy, safe and affordable means to combat this problem, a homeopathic drug, Arsenicum Album-30, appears to yield promising results in mice. The relative efficacies of two micro doses of this drug, namely, Arsenicum Album-30 and Arsenicum Album-200, in combating arsenic toxicity have been determined in the present study on the basis of some accepted biochemical protocols.MethodsMice were divided into different sets of control (both positive and negative) and treated series (As-intoxicated, As-intoxicated plus drug-fed). Alanine amino transferase (ALT) and aspartate amino transferase (AST) activities and reduced glutathione (GSH) level in liver and blood were analyzed in the different series of mice at six different fixation intervals.ResultsBoth Arsenicum Album-30 and Arsenicum Album-200 ameliorated arsenic-induced toxicity to a considerable extent as compared to various controls.ConclusionsThe results lend further support to our earlier views that microdoses of potentized Arsenicum Album are capable of combating arsenic intoxication in mice, and thus are strong candidates for possible use in human subjects in arsenic contaminated areas under medical supervision.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991532 Bizarre chemical discovery gives homeopathic hint 19:00 07 November 01It is a chance discovery so unexpected it defies belief and threatens to reignite debate about whether there is a scientific basis for thinking homeopathic medicines really work.A team in South Korea has discovered a whole new dimension to just about the simplest chemical reaction in the book - what happens when you dissolve a substance in water and then add more water. Conventional wisdom says that the dissolved molecules simply spread further and further apart as a solution is diluted. But two chemists have found that some do the opposite: they clump together, first as clusters of molecules, then as bigger aggregates of those clusters. Far from drifting apart from their neighbours, they got closer together.The discovery has stunned chemists, and could provide the first scientific insight into how some homeopathic remedies work. Homeopaths repeatedly dilute medications, believing that the higher the dilution, the more potent the remedy becomes.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

German chemist Kurt Geckeler and his colleague Shashadhar Samal stumbled on the effect while investigating fullerenes at their lab in the Kwangju Institute of Science and Technology in South Korea. They found that the football-shaped buckyball molecules kept forming untidy aggregates in solution, and Geckler asked Samal to look for ways to control how these clumps formed. What he discovered was a phenomenon new to chemistry. "When he diluted the solution, the size of the fullerene particles increased," says Geckeler. "It was completely counterintuitive," he says. Further work showed it was no fluke. To make the otherwise insoluble buckyball dissolve in water, the chemists had mixed it with a circular sugar-like molecule called a cyclodextrin. When they did the same experiments with just cyclodextrin molecules, they found they behaved the same way. So did the organic molecule sodium guanosine monophosphate, DNA and plain old sodium chloride.--Fred Pearce of University College London, who tried to repeat Benveniste's experiments, agrees. But it could offer some clues as to why other less dilute homeopathic remedies work, he says. Large clusters and aggregates might interact more easily with biological tissue.Chemist Jan Enberts of the University of Groningen in the Netherlands is more cautious. "It's still a totally open question," he says. "To say the phenomenon has biological significance is pure speculation." But he has no doubt Samal and Geckeler have discovered something new. "It's surprising and worrying," he says.The two chemists were at pains to double-check their astonishing results. Initially they had used the scattering of a laser to reveal the size and distribution of the dissolved particles. To check, they used a scanning electron microscope to photograph films of the solutions spread over slides. This, too, showed that dissolved substances cluster together as dilution increased. --"It doesn't prove homeopathy, but it's congruent with what we think and is very encouraging," says Peter Fisher, director of medical research at the Royal London Homeopathic Hospital.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Partial extract from The Guardian 15.03.01"A consortium of four independent research laboratories in France, Italy, Belgium, and Holland, led by Professor M Roberfroid at Belgium's Catholic University of Louvain in Brussels, used a refinement of Benveniste's original experiment that examined another aspect of basophil activation. The team knew that activation of basophil degranulation by aIgE leads to powerful mediators being released, including large amounts of histamine, which sets up a negative feedback cycle that curbs its own release. So the experiment the pan-European team planned involved comparing inhibition of basophil aIgE-induced degranulation with "ghost" dilutions of histamine against control solutions of pure water. In order to make sure no bias was introduced into the experiment by the scientists from the four laboratories involved, they were all "blinded" to the contents of their test solutions. In other words, they did not know whether the solutions they were adding to the basophil-aIgE reaction contained ghost amounts of histamine or just pure water. But that's not all. The ghost histamine solutions and the controls were prepared in three different laboratories that had nothing further to do with the trial. The whole experiment was coordinated by an independent researcher who coded all the solutions and collated the data, but was not involved in any of the testing or analysis of the data from the experiment. Not much room, therefore, for fraud or wishful thinking. So the results when they came were a complete surprise. Three of the four labs involved in the trial reported a statistically significant inhibition of the basophil degranulation reaction by the ghost histamine solutions compared with the controls. The fourth lab gave a result that was almost significant, so the total result over all four labs was positive for the ghost histamine solutions. [...]"Despite my reservations against the science of homoeopathy," says Ennis, "the results compel me to suspend my disbelief and to start searching for a rational explanation for our findings." " http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/A...,4152521,00.htm


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...3&dopt=Abstract Homeopathic vs conventional treatment of vertigo: a randomized double-blind controlled clinical study.Weiser M, Strosser W, Klein P.OBJECTIVE: To compare the efficacy and safety of a homeopathic remedy (Vertigoheel, Heel Inc, Albuquerque, NM) vs betahistine hydrochloride (active control) in the treatment of patients with vertigo of various origins in a confirmative equivalence trial. DESIGN: Randomized (1:1) double-blind controlled clinical trial. SETTING: Fifteen study centers (general practice) in Germany between November 1995 and November 1996. SUBJECTS: A total of 119 patients with vertigo of various origins CONCLUSIONS: Concerning the main efficacy variable, therapeutic equivalence between the homeopathic remedy and betahistine could be shown with statistical significance (confirmative analysis). Both remedies reduced the frequency, duration, and intensity of vertigo attacks during a 6-week treatment period. Also, vertigo-specific complaints were significantly reduced in both treatment groups.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/30/1728_72611 WEB MD -new articleHomeopathy a Good Alternative for Treating Ear InfectionsHomeopathy a Good Alternative for Treating Ear Infections Feb. 16, 2001 -- Homeopathy is a popular form of alternative medicine based on the concept of "similars" -- the idea that the same substance that could make a person ill in large amounts could actually relieve symptoms of that illness in very small amounts. In other words, that which doesn't kill you makes you stronger. The applications of homeopathy are widespread -- everything from treating the common cold to clearing up childhood ear infections. It's this latest use that caught the attention of a group of West Coast researchers, who set out to evaluate in a scientific way the many reports of homeopathic success. "We set this up as a pilot study, not really expecting to see any positive effect from homeopathy," says researcher Jennifer Jacobs, MD, MPH, clinical assistant professor of epidemiology at the University of Washington School of Public Health and Community Medicine in Seattle. "We were surprised that homeopathy decreased symptoms [of middle ear infections] in the first 24 hours of treatment." The implications are important. Not only did the researchers determine that individualized homeopathic treatments can give early relief to the ear pain, fever, and fussiness associated with ear infections, they also say such treatment could potentially help reduce antibiotic use in children, something which has been associated with increasing rates of antibiotic resistance. The study, which appears in the February issue of the Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal, was funded by the Standard Homeopathic Company and took place in a private pediatric practice in Seattle. Children with middle ear infection received either a homeopathic remedy geared to their specific symptoms, or a placebo. They took the pills three times daily for five days, or until their ear pain and fever got better, whichever came first. The children, aged 18 months to 6 years, were divided into two groups, with 36 receiving homeopathic treatment and 39 getting placebo. Neither the researchers nor the parents knew which treatment each child got until the study was over. Eight different homeopathic remedies were given in combinations that were individualized for each child, depending on his or her mood, type of pain, amount of thirst, and length of time with symptoms. The most commonly used remedies were Pulsatilla (windflower), Chamomilla (German chamomile), Sulfur (elemental sulfur), and Calcarea carbonica (calcium carbonate). At the beginning of treatment, all the children had fluid in the middle ear and had suffered ear pain and/or fever -- but for less than 36 hours. The doctors examined them for objective measures of ear infection, specifically fluid in the middle ear. They also looked at subjective measures by asking parents and children to report in a diary whether they felt less pain and had less fever during the course of treatment.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf121/sf121p07.htm HOW HOMEOPATHY MIGHT WORKAlthough some people swear to the efficacy of homeopathy's "remedies," skeptics have been fond of pointing out that these fluids are so dilute that no molecules of the active ingredients are likely to remain. Believers respond that the fluid remedies somehow retain the "essence" of the active ingredient. In effect, they maintain that water has a "memory." No wonder mainstream scientists scoff at homeopathy. But wait, perhaps water can have a memory! A Cal Tech chemist has put extremely dilute solutions under his electron microscope and found that some contain strange "ice" crystals, even though room temperature and pressure prevail. Called "IE crystals," they are produced through the action of ions. They are stable even at higher temperatures. Subsequently, an immunologist at the University of California at Los Angeles discovered that the IE crystals can stimulate parts of the immune system. Water containing these strange forms of ice show a hundred times more bioactivity than plain water. (Anonymous; "Homeopathy and IE Crystals," Spectrum, p. 18, November/ December 1998. Cr. E. Fegert) Comment. Of course, we want to see independent confirmations of the Cal Tech and UCLA work , but we hope they will be objective rather than the usual knee-jerk reactions to homeopathy. See SF#59 and SF#69 for past confrontations over homeopathy.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.hmedicine.com/news/guide/ncsu.php Researchers at CalTech have discovered magnetic particles throughout the human brain. The Cal Tech team speculates that homeopathic dilutions create a higher level of the electromagnetic field, thus triggering the defense mechanisms of the body


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.mercola.com/2003/aug/23/impossible_cure.htm In "Impossible Cure: The Promise of Homeopathy," author Amy Lansky tells the incredible story of how she used homeopathy to cure her son of autism. Although Lansky is not a medical professional, she has a Ph.D. from Stanford and worked for NASA as a researcher. She has more than enough scientific training to provide a compelling and easy to understand description of how homeopathy can be used to treat "incurable conditions" like autism. Along with this compelling testimonial, Lansky provides an in-depth account on the history, philosophy and practice of homeopathy, as well as dozens of other testimonials on the power of homeopathy in curing various health problems. I have never been formally trained in homeopathy, and as a result I don't use much of it in my practice, but I am convinced it can be used as an effective tool for many conditions if properly utilized. There are many complexities to its optimal implementation, and Lansky provides an excellent start for someone beginning to explore this modality.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.healthy.net/asp/templates/artic...Article&id=2149 Homeopathic Remedies vs. the Placebo EffectRichard Moskowitz M.D. The art of homeopathic medicine today is all but unknown to the general public; and I would venture to say that a large majority of those who have heard of it, including most of our patients, believe in their hearts that the tiny granules that taste so sweet are in fact nothing but sugar pills, and that whatever results we may achieve clinically could just as well be attributed to our own personal or shamanistic powers, or to the patient's belief in them, or some combination of the two. Nor does such a view necessarily imply any hostility to Homeopathy. Quite the contrary, it often reflects a deepening skepticism about all forms of treatment, especially the more aggressive modalities of conventional medicine, and even a humanistic preference for the "placebo effect", i.e., the ancient vis medicatrix naturae, the unassisted healing effort of the patient, as a model of the healing process in general.(1) Moreover, it is a view that Homeopathy itself has never really refuted, partly because we still do not know how our medicines act, or


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

The Lancet published the most significant and comprehensive review of homeopathic research ever published in its September 20, 1997, issue. This article was a meta-analysis of 89 blinded, randomized, placebo-controlled clinical trials. The authors conclude that the clinical effects of homeopathic medicines are not simply the results of placebo. The researchers uncovered 186 studies, 119 of which were double-blind and/or randomized placebo-control trials, and 89 of which met pre-defined criteria for inclusion into a pooled meta-analysis. The reseachers found that by pooling the 89 trials together that homeopathic medicines had a 2.45 times greater effect than placebo. The Lancet concurrently published two critiques of the homeopathic research. One critique by Jan Vandenbroucke, MD, a Dutch professor, acknowledged, "The meta-analysis is completely state of the art." And yet, despite its results, he asserts that homeopathic medicines "cannot possibly produce any effect." Because homeopathic medicines are often so small in dose that physicians and scientists commonly assert that they cannot work, an increasing number of controlled trials and an ever increasing public interest in homeopathy is proving them wrong.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.healingwithhomeopathy.net/whatis.htm homeopathy helps dissipate blockages in an individual's subtle energy that may be preventing the individual's body wisdom from healing the chronic or acute illness. When the blockages are released, the individual's body wisdom is freed up to do what it needs to do - restructure, reorganize, release, reconstruct, realign, etc. It's this innate body intelligence that really brings about the healing that results from energetic healing modalities. I often compare this process to pushing a boulder over a cliff. It only takes one big shove in just the right place and then gravity takes over. Likewise, an individual may need only one homeopathic remedy to stimulate a deep and long lasting healing response.For acute illnesses (e.g. cold, flu or sports injury), usually only one blockage is involved and so usually only one remedy is required. For most people with chronic illness, however, there are usually multiple blockages - in which case they often need a series of remedies over a period of time. Each remedy helps release a pattern of blockage, and assists the body wisdom in healing the chronic illness layer by layer.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

We have an IVY LEAGUE M.D. (a surgeon in san diego)We also have a Stanford U. ( M.D. ) ---- http://www.homeopathicdoctor.com/page9.html http://www.homeopathicdoctor.com/page4.html http://www.homeopathicdoctor.com/ http://www.billgrayhomeopathy.com/ Below we have a doctor who got just fed up with allopathic medicine, and now he is able to really help people the correct way -naturally. http://www.simillibus.com/about.html I am a practicing homœopathic physician in Blue Hill, Maine, a small town on a peninsula on the northeastern portion of the Maine coast. I was trained in conventional (allopathic) medicine at the University of Vermont College of Medicine (1979-1983), and subsequently did a 3-year residency in family medicine at St. Mary's Hospital in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I returned to Maine in 1986 to a family practice, with additional interests in occupational medicine, chronic pain management, biofeedback and mind/body medicine. In my early practice experience, I became quite aware that my conventional medical training did not equip me well for many of the common difficulties people brought in with them. Kids with recurrent or chronic ear infections, adults with fatigue, folks with chronic headaches, irritable bowel syndrome, kids with asthma, ADD/ADHD ... the list could go on for some time. These folks...


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ MONDAY, NOVEMBER 24, 2003 02:24:04 AM ] http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll...ow?artid=298138 Dr Mukesh Batra , Leading homoeopath, On the changing perception of homoeopathy in India How would you evaluate homeopathic treatment in India ? India leads the world with about five lakh (500,000) homoeopathic practitioners. The homoeopathic market is estimated at Rs 630 crore and has been growing annually at 20 to 25 per cent for the last five years. An independent research commissioned by Dr Batra's Positive Health Clinic Ltd (DBPHCL) two years ago in Bangalore and Mumbai showed that more and more people today choose homoeopathy as the first choice of treatment especially in chronic diseases such as asthma, arthritis, chronic allergies and stress-related disorders. Where does the focus of Dr Batra's Positive Health Clinic lie? The focus lies in presenting homoeopathy as a modern credible form of therapy. The company's 80 highly qualified doctors, treat over two lakh patients every year. Our Cyber Clinic (www.drbatras.com), meanwhile, offers online consultation to over four lakh patients every year. We specialise in treating difficult and chronic cases like asthma, COPD, eczema, psoriasis, hair loss, white patches. How different are your medicines from conventional homoeopathic medication? Our medicines, based on my 30 years' experience and in-house clinical trials and drug efficacy, are specially sourced and prepared according to Indian and foreign pharmacopoeia and every batch is passed and checked by high quality tests. The medicines dispensed are blister-packed to ensure purity and high quality. What future breakthrough can we see? As an institution, we intend to focus on aged people and their problems, not merely physical but mental and emotional problems as well like isolation and depression. We are also researching a cure for stress-related problems and ways to cope with them. We are also trying to find a breakthrough for AIDS. We are helping AIDS patients through homoeopathy at 'Ashraya' in Delhi . it is being monitored by a team of independent doctors. bombaytimes###timesgroup.com


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:EvhR0...&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 In France today, it is estimated that 12% of general practitioners use homeopathic remedies regularly and more than 50% use them occasionally.Other professions also make use of homeopathy: dental surgeons (2,000), veterinarians (700), and more and more specialists (approximately 500; more than 100 of them are pediatricians, but there are also gynecologists, ENT's, etc.)In Italy, 7,500 physicians prescribe homeopathic remedies. Training is offered in the major cities (Bologna, Milan, Rome, Turin, Florence, Venice, etc.).In Belgium, there are some 2,000 prescribers of homeopathic remedies.In Spain, training has been offered for over 15 years in collaboration with the most prestigious universities (Salamanca, Seville, Valladolid, Murcia, etc.) or in collaboration with the Physicians Association (Alicante, Valencia, etc.). The number of physicians prescribing homeopathic remedies is estimated to be about 4,000.In Eastern and Central Europe, many physicians have been trained in homeopathy in recent years (more than 8,000 in Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovakia for example). They participate in providing homeopathic remedies to patients in these countries who have long been deprived of them.In Brazil (there are more than 10,000 prescribers of homeopathic remedies), in Mexico, (approximately 3,000 physicians), in India, and all over the world, many physicians count on the efficacy of homeopathic remedies.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

K.H. Friese, S. Kruse, H. Moeller Acute Otitis Media in Children: A Comparison of Conventional and Homeopathic Treatment Biomedical Therapy, 60,4,1997:113-116 (Originally published in German in Hals-Nasen-Ohren (Head, Nose, and Otolyngarology, August, 1996:462-66). This study of 131 children allowed parents to choose homeopathic or conventional medical care from their ear, nose, and throat doctor. 103 children underwent homeopathic treatment, while 28 underwent conventional care. They found that the total recurrences of the homeopathic treated group was .41 per patient, while the antibiotic treatment group was .70 per patient. Of the "homeopathic" children who did have another earache, 29.3% had a maximum of three recurrences, while 43.5% of the "antibiotic" children had a maximum of six recurrences.M. Weiser, W. Strosser, P. Klein, Homeopathic vs. Conventional Treatment of Vertigo: A Randomized Double-Blind Controlled Clinical Study Archives of Otolaryngology--Head and Neck Surgery, August, 1998, 124:879-885. This was a study with 119 subjects with various types of vertigo, half of whom were given a homeopathic medicine (a combination of four homeopathic medicines) and half were given a leading conventional drug in Europe for vertigo, betahistine hydrochloride. The homeopathic medicines were found to be similarly effective and significantly safer than the conventional control. D. Reilly, M. Taylor, N. Beattie, et al., Is Evidence for Homoeopathy Reproducible? Lancet, December 10, 1994, 344:1601-6. This study successfully reproduced evidence from two previous double-blinded trials all of which used the same model of homeopathic immunotherapy in inhalant allergy. In this third study, 9 of 11 patients on homeopathic treatment improved compared to only 5 of 13 patients on placebo. The researchers concluded that either homeopathic medicines work or controlled studies don't. Their work has again be recently replicated and is submitted for publication. (See Is Homeopathy a Placebo Response? Lancet 1986, below.)


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

E. Ernst, T. Saradeth, and K.L. Resch, Complementary Treatment of Varicose Veins: A Randomized Placebo-controlled, Double-Blind Trial, Phlebology, 1990, 5:157-163. This study of 61 patients showed a 44% improvement in venous filling time in the homeopathic treated group when compared with placebo. P. Fisher, A. Greenwood, E.C. Huskisson, et al., Effect of Homoeopathic Treatment on Fibrositis British Medical Journal, August 5, 1989, 299:365-66. This trial was double-blind with a crossover design, comparing R toxicodendron to a placebo in 30 patients all suffering from an identical syndrome identified as the admission criteria. It showed a significant reduction in tender spots, by 25%, when patients were given the homeopathic medicine, as compared to when they were given the placebo.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.thymos.com/mind/zohar.html http://www.purifymind.com/WuantumMechnicalMod.htm a french physicist -alain aspect -- has proven some remarkable phenomena. Elementary particles are affected by connections that exist unseen across time and space.2 electrons once correlated can maintian their connection over distance.Zohar writes that our brain cells are sensitive enough to register the absorption of a single photon&#8230;.. and thus is capable of being influenced by odd, quantum level behavior.ahhh ---very interesting. i thought that it would boil down to something like this


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Physician David Reilly of the Glasgow Homeopathic Hospital in Scotland and his colleagues determined what substance caused the allergies of 51 patients, then had a supplier create pills with these substances diluted to infinitesimal levels. Compared to a placebo group, the patients who got the homeopathic treatment had significantly less nasal congestion. However, the patients' subjective evaluations of their condition did not differ between the groups. Combined with the results from the team's three previous trials -- which used a similar regimen against hay fever and allergies -- the work suggests that homeopathy is more than a placebo, Reilly and colleagues conclude in the August 19-26 issue of the British Medical Journal.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.nhsdirectory.org/default.asp?Page=Homeopathy Providing a Choice - Homeopathy within Primary CareHomeopathy is a complementary therapy that can provide low-cost, effective treatments for a range of disorders that are often a continuous drain on NHS resources. Many disorders can be safely, cheaply and effectively treated by a professional registered Homeopath.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Read page 3 of this thread http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php...=1;t=036718;p=3 for a discussion of some of the posts made by kel on the current thread


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

I've summarized .kel.'s posts above


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## I'll B Snookered (Apr 9, 2004)

kel,I thought you hated it when eric posted a ton of stuff you have to scroll through. I guess it's ok because you included just a little in each post.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Yes snookered i hit the down button a few dozen tines just like i do with eric's posts. now for someone who complains about eric and then dooes the same thnng herself- there is irony for you.kel, now you are even beginning to repeat yourself.. You will see your last post was posted on the first page by you.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

bonnie,you are just being a little trouble maker.







i suspect that you think it may indeed work based partly on your jaundice experience and partly based on the fact that India has such a rich tradition in homeopathy.India is the world leader in acceptance of this healing treatment. 500,000+ practitioners in India alone. are they all a bunch of kooks? are the millions of Indian patients all a bunch of kooks who are easily scammed by a placebo treatment?i think not.the fact is that homeopathy is an energy medicine and at our most fundamental level we are really just energy beings. this is a hard concept for people to understand but it is true. m=ec(2) http://www.wddty.co.uk/thefield/main.asp The Field has been called 'a book that could change the world forever'The Field tells the story of a group of frontier scientists who discovered that the Zero Point Field - an ocean of subatomic vibrations in the space between things - connects everything in the universe, much like the Force in Star Wars. *The Field offers a radically new view of the way our world and our bodies work. The human mind and body are not distinct and separate from their environment, but a packet of pulsating energy constantly interacting with this vast energy sea.* The Field creates a picture of an interconnected universe and a new scientific theory which makes sense of 'supernatural 'phenomena. Above all, The Field is a book of hope and inspiration.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

In France 18 000 (32%) of all general practitioners, 700 veterinarians and 2 000 dentists (5%) prescribe homeopathic medicines to their patients. This does however not mean that they consider themselves homeopaths. Some give their patients homeopathic medicines only, but most of them do it to a variable degree. Most of them are not organised in associations for homeopaths.In all countries homeopaths are organised. India has the largest number of homeopaths. The Central Body of Registration has over 125 000 registered homeopathic practitioners on its register. http://www.homeopathy-ecch.org/survey.html


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## painter (Aug 20, 2003)

Who is Dr. Dahlman? Is he reputable? Besides Kel has anyone had experience with him?


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Toxic side ffects, apart from the arsenic one: 1 Contact dermatitis from Rhus toxicodendron in a homeopathic remedy.Cardinali C - J Am Acad Dermatol - 01-JAN-2004; 50(1): 150-1From NIH/NLM MEDLINE Childhood bullous pemphigoid: report of a case with life-threatening course during homeopathy treatment.Kuenzli S - Pediatr Dermatol - 01-MAR-2004; 21(2): 160-3From NIH/NLM MEDLINEkel yes people in India take it but that does not mean it works all the time or even most of the time. People there resort to allopathy when it doesn't work out. The poor rely on it because it is cheap and there are plenty of poor people in India who could keep the 500,000 practitioners busy As for my jaundice, now that I think of it , it took two weeks for it to disappear and probably if I hadn't done anything it would have gone into remission. For e.g "Treatment Acute hepatitis needs *no treatment* other than careful monitoring of liver function, by measuring serum transaminases and prothrombin time."Only if the liver had failed would it have needed treatment. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/ar...9.htm#Treatment The more I read about homeopathy the more difficult a time I have supporting it, kel. Sorry!


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

allopathy has its place. some people are impatient and want the quick fix of symptom supression. allopathy is also good for acute trauma. allopathy also has a giant well financed steam roller machine pushing its way where ever it wants to go.in the US and europe the people who switch over to various energy medicine treatments are on average highly educated. we are not fools.****************"The more I read about homeopathy the more difficult a time I have supporting it"that is to be understood. i felt exactly the same way. i did not think that it could possibly work and yet it does. the TRUTH IS STRANGER THAN FICTION.the works of Belon P, Cumps J, Ennis M, Mannaioni PF, Roberfroid M, Sainte-Laudy J, Wiegant FA will open the flood gates on homeopathy.it is reproducible."We are however unable to explain our findings and are reporting them to encourage others to investigate this phenomenon." M Ennis (she tried to dubunk homeopathy but had the tables turned on her)"Despite my reservations against the science of homoeopathy," says Ennis, "the results compel me to suspend my disbelief and to start searching for a rational explanation for our findings." " http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/A...,4152521,00.htm


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:allopathy has its place


Allopathy is all we have (here on Earth).


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

kel,


> quote:One thing however seems certain. Either Benveniste will now be brought in from the cold, or Professor Ennis and the rest of the scientists involved in the pan-European experiment could be joining him there.


from your link http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/...,4152521,00.htm It is quite clear that 2-3 years later there hass been no followup on this research and Ennis has joined the ranks of BenvenisteAnd you haven't responded to this follow up by Randi of Ennis other than to say that just because Randi said "I have a way out" this whole experiment was fixedHere is the follow upMADELEINE ENNIS: I was asked whether, if I really believed my viewpoint, would I test the hypothesis that the data were wrong?NARRATOR: Ennis knew that the memory of water breaks the laws the science, but she believed that a scientist should always be willing to investigate new ideas, so the sceptical Ennis ended up testing the central claim of homeopathy. She performed an experiment almost identical to Benveniste's using the same kind of blood cell. Then she added a chemical, histamine, which had been diluted down to homeopathic levels. The crucial question: would it have any effect on the cells? To find out she had to count the cells one by one to see whether they had been affected by the homeopathic water. The results were mystifying. the homeopathic water couldn't have had a single molecule of histamine, yet it still had an effect on the cells.MADELEINE ENNIS: They certainly weren't the results that I wanted to see and they definitely weren't the results that I would have liked to have seen.NARRATOR: Ennis wondered whether counting by hand had introduced an error, so she repeated the experiment using an automated system to count the cells, and astonishingly, the result was still positive.MADELEINE ENNIS: I was incredibly surprised and really had great feelings of disbelief, but I know how the experiments were performed and I couldn't see an error in what we had done.NARRATOR: These results seemed to prove that water does have a memory after all. It's exactly what the homeopaths have been hoping for.PETER FISHER: If these results become generally accepted it will revolutionise the view of homeopathy. Homeopathy will suddenly become this idea that was perhaps born before its time.LIONEL MILGROM: It's particularly exciting because it does seem to suggest that Benveniste was correct.NARRATOR: At last here is evidence from a highly respected researcher that homeopathic water has a real biological effect. The claims of homeopathy might be true after all. However, the arch sceptic Randi is unimpressed.JAMES RANDI: There is so many ways that errors are purposeful interference can take place.NARRATOR: As part of his campaign to test bizarre claims Randi has decided to put his money where his mouth is. On his website is a public promise: to anyone who prove the scientifically impossible Randi will pay $1m.JAMES RANDI: This is not a cheap theatrical stung. It's theatrical, yes, but it's a million dollar's worth.NARRATOR: Proving the memory of water would certainly qualify for the million dollars. To win the prize someone would simply have to repeat Ennis's experiments under controlled conditions, yet no-one has applied.JAMES RANDI: Where are the homeopathic labs, the biological labs around the world, who say that this is the real thing who would want to make a million dollars and aren't doing it?NARRATOR: So Horizon decided to take up Randi's challenge. We gathered experts from some of Britain's leading scientific institutions to help us repeat Ennis's experiments. Under the most rigorous of conditions they'll see whether they can find any evidence for the memory of water. We brought James Randi over from the United States to witness the experiment and we came to the world's most august scientific institution, the Royal Society. The Vice-President of the Society, Professor John Enderby, agreed to oversee the experiment for us.PROF. JOHN ENDERBY: ...but they'll, of course as far as the experimenters are concerned they'll have totally different numbersï¿½NARRATOR: And with a million dollars at stake James Randi wants to make sure there's no room for error.JAMES RANDI: ...keeping the original samples, so I'm very happy with that provision. I'm willing to accept a positive result for homeopathy or for astrology or for anything else. I may not like it, but I have to be willing to accept it.NARRATOR: The first stage is to prepare the homeopathic dilutions. We came to the laboratories of University College London where Professor Peter Mobbs agreed to produce them for us. He's going to make a homeopathic solution of histamine by repeatedly diluting one drop of solution into 99 drops of water.PETER MOBBS: OK, now I'm transferring the histamine into 9.9mmls of distilled water and then we'll discard the tip.NARRATOR: For comparison we also need control tubes, tubes that have never had histamine in them. For these Peter starts with plain water.PETER MOBBS: In it goes.NARRATOR: This stage dilutes the solutions down to one in 100 - that's 1C. We now have 10 tubes. Half are just water diluted with more water, the control tubes, half are histamine diluted in water. These are all shaken, the crucial homeopathic step. Now he dilutes each of the tubes again, to 2C. Then to 3C, all the way to 5C.PETER MOBBS: The histamine's now been diluted ten thousand million times. Still a few molecules left in there, but not very many.NARRATOR: Then we asked Professor of Electrical Engineering, Hugh Griffiths, to randomly relabel each of our 10 tubes. Now only he has the code for which tubes contain the homeopathic dilutions and which tubes contain water.HUGH GRIFFITHS: OK, so there's the record of which is which. I'm going to encase it in aluminium foil and then seal it in this envelope here.NARRATOR: Next the time-consuming task of taking these solutions down to true homeopathic levels. UCL scientist Rachel Pearson takes each of the tubes and dilutes them down further - to 6C. That's one drop in 20 swimming pools. To 12C - a drop in the Atlantic. Then to 15C - one drop in all the world's oceans. The tubes have now been diluted one million million million million million times. Some are taken even further down, to 18C. Every tube, whether it contains histamine or water, goes through exactly the same procedure. To guard against any possibility of fraud, Professor Enderby himself recodes every single tube. The result is 40 tubes none of which should contain any molecules of histamine at all. Conventional science says they are all identical, but if Madeleine Ennis is right her methods should tell which ones contain the real homeopathic dilutions. Now we repeat Ennis's procedure. We take a drop of water from each of the tubes and add a sample of living human cells. Then it's time for Wayne Turnbull at Guys Hospital, to analyse the cells to see whether the homeopathic water has had any effect. He'll be using the most sophisticated system available: a flow cytometer.WAYNE TURNBULL: Loading it up, bringing it up to pressure. Essentially the technology allows us to take individual cells and push them past a focused laser beam. A single stream of cells will be pushed along through the nozzle head and come straight down through the machine. The laser lights will be focussed at each individual cell as it goes past. Reflected laser light is then being picked up by these electronic detectors here.NARRATOR: By measuring the light reflected off each cell the computer can tell whether they've reacted or not.WAYNE TURNBULL: This is actually a very fast machine. I can run up to 100 million cells an hour.JAMES RANDI: Whoa.NARRATOR: But to be absolutely rigorous we asked a second scientist, Marian Macey at the Royal London Hospital, to perform the analysis in parallel. Our two labs get to work. Using a flow cytometer they measure how many of the cells are being activated by the different test solutions. Some tubes do seem to be having more of an effect than others. The question is: are they the homeopathic ones? At last the analysis is complete. We gather all the participants here to the Royal Society to find out the results. First, everyone confirms that the experiment has been conducted in a rigorous fashion.MARION MACEY: I applied my own numbering system to theï¿½RACHEL PEARSON: ...5, 5.4 millimolar solutionï¿½WAYNE TURNBULL: ...we eventually did arrive at a protocol that we were happy with.NARRATOR: Then there's the small matter of the million dollars.JOHN ENDERBY: James, is the cheque in your pocket ready now?JAMES RANDI: We don't actually carry a cheque around. It's in the form of negotiable bonds which will be immediately sep, separated from our account and given to whoever should win the prize.NARRATOR: We asked the firm to fax us confirmation that the million dollar prize is there.JOHN ENDERBY: OK, now look, I'm going to open this envelope.NARRATOR: Now at last it's time to break the code. On hand to analyse the results is statistician Martin Bland.JOHN ENDERBY: 59.NARRATOR: We've divided the tubes into those that did and didn't seem to have an effect in our experiment.JOHN ENDERBY: 62.NARRATOR: Each tube is either a D for the homeopathic dilutions, or a C, for the plain water controls.JOHN ENDERBY: 52 and 75 were Cs.NARRATOR: Rachel Pearson identifies the tubes with a C or D. If the memory of water is real each column should either have mostly Cs or mostly Ds. This would show that the homeopathic dilutions are having a real effect, different from ordinary water. There's a hint that the letters are starting to line up.JOHN ENDERBY: Column 1 we've got 5 Cs and a D. Column 3 we've got 4 Cs and a D, so let's press on. 148 and 9, 28 andï¿½NARRATOR: But as more codes are read out the true result becomes clear: the Cs and Ds are completely mixed up. The results are just what you'd expect by chance. A statistical analysis confirms it. The homeopathic water hasn't had any effect.PROF. MARTIN BLAND (St. George's Hospital Medical School): There's absolutely no evidence at all to say that there is any difference between the solution that started off as pure water and the solution that started off with the histamine.JOHN ENDERBY: What this has convinced me is that water does not have a memory.NARRATOR: *So Horizon hasn't won the million dollars.* It's another triumph for James Randi. His reputation and his money are safe, but even he admits this may not be the final word.[JAMES RANDI: Further investigation needs to be done. This may sound a little strange coming from me, but if there is any possibility that there's a reality here I want to know about it, all of humanity wants to know about it.NARRATOR: *Homeopathy is back where it started without any credible scientific explanation. That won't stop millions of people putting their faith in it, but science is confident. Homeopathy is impossible.*


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

randi is a fraud. people have passed his preliminary tests at which point he ceases contact with them. his homeopathy challenges are based on a p=.ooooo1 or something to that effect. homeopathy will not give .000001 predictability.FRAUD! on his part.quote b ---- "It is quite clear that 2-3 years later there hass been no followup on this research and Ennis has joined the "what do you mean no followup. it is right here. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=15105967 Inflamm Res. 2004 Apr;53(5):181-8. Epub 2004 Apr 21. Related Articles, Links Histamine dilutions modulate basophil activation.Belon P, Cumps J, Ennis M, Mannaioni PF, Roberfroid M, Sainte-Laudy J, Wiegant FA.Boiron, 20 rue de la Liberation, 69110, Sainte-Foy-Les-Lyon, France.Background:In order to demonstrate that high dilutions of histamine are able to inhibit basophil activation in a reproducible fashion, several techniques were used in different research laboratories. Objective:The aim of the study was to investigate the action of histamine dilutions on basophil activation. Methods:Basophil activation was assessed by alcian blue staining, measurement of histamine release and CD63 expression. Study 1 used a blinded multi-centre approach in 4 centres. Study 2, related to the confirmation of the multi-centre study by flow cytometry, was performed independently in 3 laboratories. Study 3 examined the histamine release (one laboratory) and the activity of H(2) receptor antagonists and structural analogues (two laboratories). Results:High dilutions of histamine (10(-30)-10(-38) M) influence the activation of human basophils measured by alcian blue staining. The degree of inhibition depends on the initial level of anti-IgE induced stimulation, with the greatest inhibitory effects seen at lower levels of stimulation. This multicentre study was confirmed in the three laboratories by using flow cytometry and in one laboratory by histamine release. Inhibition of CD63 expression by histamine high dilutions was reversed by cimetidine (effect observed in two laboratories) and not by ranitidine (one laboratory). Histidine tested in parallel with histamine showed no activity on this model. Conclusions:In 3 different types of experiment, it has been shown that high dilutions of histamine may indeed exert an effect on basophil activity. This activity observed by staining basophils with alcian blue was confirmed by flow cytometry. Inhibition by histamine was reversed by anti-H2 and was not observed with histidine these results being in favour of the specificity of this effect We are however unable to explain our findings and are reporting them to encourage others to investigate this phenomenon.PMID: 15105967 [PubMed - in process]


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

TRUTH IS STRANGER THAN FICTIONDavid Deutsch, physicist at Oxford University A Home Test for Parallel UniversesMarch, 2004 When you think of a parallel universe, do you think of a universe, or a world, similar to ours but different in some fundamental quality. Bill Clinton, for instance, is a happily celibate priest. Or George W. Bush delights his fellow Mensa members, at parties, with his verbal games. Or, perhaps, you only have a science-fiction quality vagueness to what you think of a parallel universe: pointed ears, warp-drive through worm holes, and form fitting Lycra body suits on a thin, well-groomed crew. A parallel universe, it may surprise you to learn, is actually detectable in your own home, office, or almost anywhere indoors. All that's required is a red laser pointer, a pin, and a piece of paper. With the aid of David Deutsch, a physicist at Oxford University and his excellent book "The Fabric of Reality", the experiment, in a step-by-step process, is going to be set-up and, then, it's going to be explained why this magic-like result from this experiment is indeed proof of a parallel universe. First, a red laser pointer is needed. I found one at Radio Shack for $19, not including the triple A batteries that were needed. The red color of the laser pointer is important. The red light, unlike the white light of a flashlight, which is a composite of many colors, doesn't fray as white light does. The red light, specifically, of the laser pointer casts more specific shadows - which is what this experiment does. A flashlight, according to Deutsch, can probably be substituted. A filter, however, is going to have to be placed over the white beam. The filter, can only be red colored glass; paper or any other filter won't work. Next, a relatively large, dark room is needed. The room should be large enough to set up the laser pointer on, say, a table, and have it cast its light on a wall about one and a half meters, or about five feet away for my metrically challenged Americans. At first, this humble journalist tried to do the experiment, during the bright light of a Washington, DC winter day, in a walk-in closet and a bathroom. Both weren't large enough. My dining room, when the sun had set, was. David Deutsch recommends a room that's almost totally dark. I found, however, that this was too dark. The experiment requires enough light to manipulate the laser pointer. What I did was have a light on in another room, which provided enough light to see what I was doing but dark enough to see the shadow cast by the laser pointer. The experiment is best done with done with two people, with one handling the laser pointer and the other observing the pattern on the wall. The positions can then be switched. Be careful, however, not to shine the laser light into the other's eyes. If you don't have two people, this is what I recommend. Fold a piece of paper in half and place it on the table, so that one half is perpendicular to the table. Then, using a book, or anything to set the laser pointer on, aim the pointer at the paper. Mark where the red light hits the paper. Using a pin (and only a pin, not a tack, the holes have to be as small as possible) punch two holes, on the mark, as close to each other as you can. Then, aiming the laser pointer at the two small holes, a shadow of five slits should be cast on the wall. That is, there's going to be one large red dot cast on the wall. In the dot, there should be five distinct shadows cast by the two holes. If this doesn't work, the most common problem I found was that there wasn't enough distance between the paper and the wall. If possible, increase the distance. David Deutsch recommends about five meters, or fifteen feet, but I found about five feet, or a meter and a half, was enough to observe the pattern. Why, you may be wondering, are there five slits of shadows when there are only two holes? That's because light, as you may have guessed, usually travels in straight lines. We can't, for instance, see around corners or buildings. When light, however, is forced to go through a small hole, it acts like a thirteen year old forced to go clothes shopping with their parents, it rebels. Specifically, it bends. The smaller the hole is, the more it bends. So, if light traveled in straight lines, there would only be two shadows cast by the holes. Instead, however, the shadow of the five slits, from the two holes, is a result of concentric rings of varying thickness and brightness. There is a bright spot in the center, surrounded by a dark ring and, following this pattern, fainter rings of light and darkness around it. The result is the pattern of the five slits. Patiently, you've read this far and want to know when you're going to detect a parallel universe. This is the next step. Next to the two holes you've punched, make two more. It's important that they be parallel with the other holes and that they be as close to the other two. Also, keep in mind that the width of the point of the laser is narrow (at least mine was) and that the laser has to go through all four holes simultaneously. What should happen, or is expected to happen, is that the same pattern as with the two holes appears. Light beams, according to "Fabric of Reality", normally pass through each other unaffected. So, the same pattern as the two holes, should be repeated, only brighter and slightly blurred. What happens is nothing like that and is, David Deutsch believes, evidence of parallel universes. Only three shadows are cast. That is, two of the shadows disappear. If you look closely, you'll see that where there been two red shadows are now dark. So, punching two more holes actually results in two of the shadows going dark. How does this happen? Something, obviously, is blocking the light from casting the shadow. Or, you might think that the photons, individual units of light, have somehow been bent and recombined to form a pattern of new shadows. The answer, as will be explained, can't be this but is an usually undetectable world of photons, or, a parallel universe. First, however, it should be explained that what interferes with the laser light has the properties of light. If, for instance, two of the holes are covered by anything opaque, the five slit shadow reappears, but it, the red laser light, can penetrate anything and behaves as light does, that allows light to pass. If, for instance, a system of mirrors is set-up, which the light bounces off of and eventually reaches the wall, the same patterns appear. What happens when the red laser light is slowed to one photon at a time (no, this can't be done in your dining room)? That is, when only one photon is fired through each of the four slits, the same pattern appears. Could it be that, when the photon passes through the slits, they change course and recombine? Nope. When detectors are placed at each of the four slits, and one photon again is passed through them, only one of the detectors goes off, meaning that the photon hasn't split. David Deutsch, using an experimentally confirmed prediction from quantum theory, believes that what's causing the interference are shadow photons. More specifically, interference, as in this experiment, is not only common for photons but for every particle. So, Deutsch writes in "Fabric of Reality", this is what is causing the interference, "[W]hen a photon passes through one of four slits, some shadow photons pass through the other three slits." The shadow photons, then, are blocking the tangible photons, causing only three shadow slits. These shadow photons form a parallel universe. David Deutsch writes that they behave as tangible particles do. They obey the law of physics but with the difference that they're in a different position. But how, exactly, do the shadow photons stop the tangible ones? The answer that Deutsch presents is that the shadow atoms, present in the shadow photons, form a barrier. Only a small proportion of the tangible and shadow atoms, however, are interacting with one another. Or, as Deutsch writes, "each shadow atom in the barrier can be interacting with only a small proportion of the other shadow atoms in its vicinity, and the ones it does interact with form a barrier much like a tangible one. And so on. All matter, and all physical processes, have this structure." To clarify his last point, the parallel universe interacts with the tangible universe in much the same way as particles so in the tangible universe: only a small proportion do. The result is through interference, or weakly, as in the experiment. Why, you may be wondering, if there's a detectable parallel universes around us, why don't we detect, or notice it, more often? David Deutsch writes, the answer, "...can be found in the quantum-mechanical laws that govern them." Every particle, for instance, has counterparts in other universes and is only interfered with only by those counterparts. Any other universe, therefore, can only be detected when the particle in, say, our universe converges with its counterpart in another universe. The path of the particle and its counterpart have to be exactly right. They have to separate and join together again, as in this experiment, and the timing has to be right. If there's a delay in the particles or any interference, the particles won't converge. Also, a parallel universe is only detectable between universes that are very alike. In short, because these events are extremely rare, so is the detection of parallel universes is difficult. It should be added that most physicists disagree with Deutsch's conclusion that what is detected in this experiment is another universe. For brevity's sake, the argument against can be summarized as, there is something interfering with the light in this experiment, why does it have to be a parallel universe? Why can't it be just be left to something that we don't yet understand? If you're interested in how Deutsch answers his critics, I recommend the "Fabric of Reality" for his answers and reasoning.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Well Ennis in 2004 seems to have reformulated the original specifications. Now he/she seems to have brought in "The degree of inhibition depends on the initial level of anti-IgE induced stimulation, with the greatest inhibitory effects seen at lower levels"But anyway, interesting. I will wait with bated breath to see how this sage unfolds.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

---"Well Ennis in 2004 seems to have reformulated the original specifications"only to bring in uniformity to the samples. what they discovered was that not all basophils react the same way. basophils from non-allergic patients are not giving results that are as reproducible.the study is reproducible and will eventually produce shock waves through scientific circles. as i type right now the pseudo-skeptics are at a loss for words. they will probably resort to "you lied", "you cheated"the fact is that studies like this have been reproduced several times. this is one of the best. PAN-EUROPEAN --- FRANCE, UK, NETHERLANDS, ITALY. BLINDED TO THE NTH DEGREE. they even used statisticians from a different university -- j. crumps UCL belgium.the histamine water and controls were produced at 3 separate labs.b.--- if only you knew the irony in the situation.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Let me check the Guardian to see if they have an article about it.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Nope they don't and nor has the National Center For Homeopathy updated its website with this groundbreaking news.


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## I'll B Snookered (Apr 9, 2004)

kel,e=mc^2 is the formula. Also, you should find a reference that tells exactly the type I error rate that Randi uses (or give the p-values from the experiment).


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Re;p-values you want your p-values to be small. The smaller the better for it gives the chance that the difference between the experiment group and the control group is merely due to coincidence. The smaller the p-value the less the chance. Yes it would be good to know what p-values Randi uses. p=0.000001 is too strict. kel, Can you give us the reference for the p-value used by Randi and also can you give the p-value in the experiments? The more complete the statement the better idea we will have of the experiments.


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## I'll B Snookered (Apr 9, 2004)

Hey Bonniei,This is splitting hairs, but we really just need the p-value from the experiment. Usually scientists use alpha=0.05 as the cutoff, but it really depends on the scenario. Also, remember that for a large enough n, you can make anything statistically significant. ...And, yes, I am trying to unload all of the knowledge that I crammed into my brain last night for my statistics final today...And I want to show off. My brain is fried.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

oh snookered! i did statistics more than 20 years ago. Do you mean p=0.95 as cut off instead of alpha=0.05 as cutoff. if you bring alpha in you will have to define it for me so i can nudge my memory. i agree that usually that p=0.05 is used as cut off but you can be more confident of your result the smaller the p-value is. i know with p=0.05 you are more than 2 SDs away so that is pretty good.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

i googled and found "The alpha level is the P-value that we as researchers decide to accept before we will be confident enough to release a finding". So it is the same as the acceptable p-value to scientists.But if a drug can be hazardous you want smaller p-values.Not saying one way or the other that homeopathy is dangerous.


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## I'll B Snookered (Apr 9, 2004)

Ok, So alpha is the type I error rate. Under the null hypothesis (or given that the null hypothesis is true), you set it to be the probability of rejecting that hypothesis. In this case, the null hypothesis is that there is no difference between the sample means or proportions (I am too lazy to read about the experiment). Then, a "small" p-value tells you that the probability of getting a more extreme value given the null hypothesis is very unlikely. You then can reject the null hypothesis and surmise that the difference you see is not just random variation. Me saying alpha =0.05 and you saying p=0.05 as cutoffs are six of one and half-dozen of the other. Thus a "small" p-value is usually taken to be less than 0.05, depending on what you are testing. ...And don't worry about that 2 SD's stuff. Let's just leave it at, if the sample sizes are large enough, you are approximately correct. Bottom line: we were talking about the same thing. Basically, I'm being trouble because I must say that unless I see some ridiculously strong evidence from multiple reliable sources that it works, I am pretty skeptical about this homeopathy stuff. For example, that post on molecules clumping. True. Put oil in water and see what happens. This proves nothing. ...and why not just make a concentrated solution, if this is the point. In fact, I don't see the point.


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## I'll B Snookered (Apr 9, 2004)

Bonniei, The only reason why you would care about smaller p-values for a potentially dangerous drug is that you might want a really dramatic effect if you are going to be dealing with potentially harmful side effects. A low p-value does not imply the drug will be less dangerous, just that the main effect that is being tested is significantly different than control.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

I cheated on that statement. I found it on the same site that I found the definition of alpha value. It sounded good -"In some cases, such as medical research being used to support release of a potentially dangerous new drug, we might want a more stringent level." http://colfa.utsa.edu/Sociology/masters/alpha.htTH I don't agree with a lot on that site. Their definition of p-value is so wrong. It defines it as probability. It is really chance.As for your statement that the main effect being tested is significantly different from control I agree. But it all depend on what the control is , doesn't it?. Which is why you need a complete statenment of what the control was before you can decide on what the significance o the p-value is.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

As for the clumping issue that is an intersting example of oil. I'll let kel attack that one







I am having a difficult time remembering statistics as it is .


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## I'll B Snookered (Apr 9, 2004)

> quote:It defines it as probability. It is really chance.


These are the same thing, so the site is correct. A p-value if the probability (or chance) of getting a value at or more extreme under the null hypothesis.


> quote:But it all depend on what the control is , doesn't it?. Which is why you need a complete statenment of what the control was before you can decide on what the significance o the p-value is.


Right on. The design of the experiment is the most important part.


> quote:As for the clumping issue that is an intersting example of oil. I'll let kel attack that one


Bring it on. Water is a polar molecule. Forget oil because it is a nonpolar substance, so it is always going to clump in water. You can dissolve things in water such as salts; however, if you agitate the solution, you might cause them to fall out of solution or precipitate...hence the clumping.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

> quote:A p-value if the probability (or chance) of getting a value at or more extreme under the null hypothesis.


Supoose you are comparing the sensory threshold of two groups- angry group and relaxed group. Suppose you find the threshold of the angry group is lower than that of the relaxed group with p less than 0.02. That means there is less than a 2%chance that that the difference is as large or l larger due to just random chance. But this is not to be confused with the statement that there is less than a 2% probability that the difference is as large or larger due to just random chance.To understand probability you have to do the experiment many times with angry and relaxed groups.The chance 0.02=number of relaxed groups that had p-values less than 0.02 divided by (number of relaxed groups that had pvalues less than 0.2+number of relaxed groups that had values greater than or equal to 0.02)The probability would be 0.02 if 0.02= number of relaxed groups that had p-values less than 0.02 divided by (number of angry groups that had p values less than 0.02 +number of relaxed groups that had values less than 0.02)


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Oh I realized my link didn't work. Snookered you might want to read the link and see what I am disputing. It is quite a different statement from yours http://colfa.utsa.edu/Sociology/masters/alpha.htm


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## I'll B Snookered (Apr 9, 2004)

Bonniei,I don't know if this will help resolve things, but it is true that you usually must assume a distribution to calculate a p-value. What you call probability seems to be an proportion, an estimate of a population parameter. For large enough n, if the distribution that you chose to calculate the p-value from is correct, you should get the same answer as a check. By the way, that definition in the link you sent me could be correct. However, it is not generally correct, and it is not correct in your scenario. Your sample for the angry group might be representative of the underlying population distribution for those angry people, but you could still get a small p-value. What do you expect from a sociology site?! Wonder how many people I offended there.


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## I'll B Snookered (Apr 9, 2004)

Bonniei,We should have started a new thread since this really has nothing to do with homeopathy. We could just title it "nerds post here."


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

My definitions might not make sense to me tomorrow. I have been up all night and had a drink or too







But the point is there is a difference between chance and probability that there is less than a 2% chance that the difference is as large or larger. If you take nothing away from it take this. In fact after googling all night I found a site which explains the difference between chance and probability that I was trying to explain. http://www.graphpad.com/articles/interpret...es/p_values.htm


> quote:Your sample for the angry group might be representative of the underlying population distribution for those angry people, but you could still get a small p-value. What do you expect from a sociology site?!


It is the reverse in the definition. Yes sociology site. You can't suddenlty expect them to turn into mathematicians







Ok enough of this nerdy talk. We will scare people away worse than flux.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

BTW what is your major?


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## I'll B Snookered (Apr 9, 2004)

One last post on this topic. I now see what you are saying. It is easier to consider this case, when you think about confidence intervals. Let's make it easy and say that we just want to construct the 95% confidence intervals for the mean of the population. What we do is find the sample mean (average), and then we can find the standard errors and construct the confidence intervals from there. The correct interpretation is that in the long run, 95% of the confidence intervals constructed will contain the true population parameter, the true mean. You cannot say that there is a 95% probability that the mean is in your interval. That probability is either 1 or 0. My major? I'm a masters student in statistics, but I also plan on doing a masters in envrionmental engineering.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Oh just one last thing after reviewing the site I would like to correct my stament so I don't knowingly leave false things going around.If chance=0.02, then 0.02= Number of angry groups that had p less than 0.02/(number of angry people who had p less than 0.02+Number of relaxed people with p less than 0.02)If probability=0.02 then 0.02=Number of angry groups that had p less than 0.02/(Number of angry groups who had p less than 0.02 + Numer of angry groups that had p greater than 0.02)I guess I wrote it down completely reversed. After all the experimental group of one experiment can be the control group of another.Yes I am looking at them as a proportion. n large enough should do it. Look at the link I gave you about the Bayes experiment.


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## I'll B Snookered (Apr 9, 2004)

BTW, you shouldn't let my degree fool you. All I know is theory. If you want to create the VC matrix for the maximum likelihood estimates of the regression coefficients in the logistic regression model, I can do that. Don't ask me to do a t-test, though.


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## I'll B Snookered (Apr 9, 2004)

Good link. Can you believe after a year of this ####, I didn't run into "chance," as defined here. The problem with Bayesian statistics, though, is having numbers for prior probabilities...not so easy to come by.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Sorry ! Had to run. My hubb suddenly realized I was Missing in action and demanded that I come to bed, NO IFS and Buts he sai. Well I tried to lie down but I think I might as well say good night to sleep tonight.It is great you that you are majoring in statistics. It is useful unlike Algebra, my major. And then you will be adding env. eng? Curious to know why?


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## I'll B Snookered (Apr 9, 2004)

I'll PM you.


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## I'll B Snookered (Apr 9, 2004)

Bonniei,Check your PMs


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Hi sorry i fell asleep and and didn't wake up till now. i just replied to your pm, snookered.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Hi snookered now that my mind is not fuzzy due to drinks this is how i would like to modify my statement If p<0.02 the chance that it is from a relaxed group=number of relaxed groups with with p<0.02/ total number of groups with p<0.02Is DIFFERENTThe probability that the difference is as large or larger due to random chance = 0.02= p-value=number of relaxed groups<0.02/number of relaxed groups


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## mirandafox (Apr 25, 2004)

So, was Lewis' "The Silver Chair" actually a reference to the porcelian throne?hmmmm, wasn't the prince held prisoner by it?I'll have to go hunt down my Narnia set....


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## mirandafox (Apr 25, 2004)

Regarding the homeopathy...what are some of the remedies that have been tried for ibs? I'd like to hear from those who have used (or are using) them.Personally, I don't care (at this point) whether or not something has gone through a billion scientific trials - if standing on my head for 27 minutes during a full moon while singing "The Wheels on the Bus Go Round and Round" relieved my ibs symptoms, I would set my alarm for it!


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## I'll B Snookered (Apr 9, 2004)

That's good stuff, Miranda...both posts, that is. Even though I was the one being a pain the keister, I agree with you. However, I am the skeptical sort, and I believe that homeopathy might be the work of the Magician's Nephew. I hope I'm wrong.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

miranda,i have always been very skeptical and cynical of all alternative treatments.i did NOT believe that there was any way possible that homeopathy could work. i even debated a homeopath online for quite some time.most if not all the bashers have never undertaken any type of experimentation with the things they bash. instead they are like the engineers of the past who made statements such as "...machines can't fly".in fact 1 week before the first flight a long article was published in a leading science journal ridiculing the notion of flight.anyway, despite my severe reservations about homeopathy i got off my rear end and sought to discover for myself if it was valid.the results have left me utterly shocked to this very day and now i know why 100,000 european MDs use this healing method. i also now understand why homeopathy is the 2nd most common treatment in the world today next to TCM.it works. shocking. unbelievable. mysterious. almost magical. --but true.it took a while but i am finally better. my remedies were nux vomica, lycopodium, and sulphur. the sulphur remedy reversed my food allergies in about 1 week. self treatment is not wise and will result in a very poor outcome.there is a retired geologist who posts here and he has repeatedly warned of negative consequences of homeopathic treatment. i believe that it is very safe but at the same time i experienced a couple of complications from it. a person can get in trouble with it if they are not careful.[snookered -- i know it is m=ec(squared) (not x 2)]


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## I'll B Snookered (Apr 9, 2004)

kel,it's e=mc^2. Think about it this way. m=e/c^2. The mass of a given amount of energy is going to be extremely small.


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## I'll B Snookered (Apr 9, 2004)

What is TCM?


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:it works. shocking. unbelievable. mysterious. almost magical. --but true.


You can even prepare it yourself..







TCM = traditional chinese medicine


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## canada dry (Feb 18, 2002)

TCM=Traditional Chinese Medicine


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## mirandafox (Apr 25, 2004)

or Ancient Chinese Secret?


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## mirandafox (Apr 25, 2004)

My gastroenterologist has tried me on several different therapies/medications, even though he can't tell me why I have IBS....It sounds like that is the story of 99% of us here....Many people have tried products/therapies they have found on the internet....so why not give homeopathy a chance?


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## I'll B Snookered (Apr 9, 2004)

How expensive are those little vials, or how expensive would a month's supply be? If it's cheapo, I agree. Why not try it. If there really is nothing to it, there won't be any side effects either.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

I don't know they are safe. That might depend on how dilute they are. A treatment of 1X Arsenic caused the side effects of melanosis and what not.Journal of Toxicology: Clinical Toxicology, Dec 2003 v41 i7 p963(5) Arsenic toxicity from homeopathic treatment. Dipankar Chakraborti; Subhash Chandra Mukherjee; Khitish Chandra Saha; Uttam Kumar Chowdhury; Mohammad Mahmudur Rahman; Mrinal Kumar Sengupta. Author's Abstract: COPYRIGHT 2003 Marcel Dekker, Inc. Homeopathic medicine is commonly believed to be relatively harmless. However, treatment with improperly used homeopathic preparations may be dangerous. Case Reports. Case 1 presented with melanosis and keratosis following short-term use of Arsenic Bromide 1-X followed by long-term use of other arsenic-containing homeopathic preparations. Case 2 developed melanotic arsenical skin lesions after taking Arsenicum Sulfuratum Flavum-l-X (Arsenic S.F. l-X) in an effort to treat his white skin patches. Case 3 consumed Arsenic Bromide 1-X for 6 days in an effort to treat his diabetes and developed an acute gastrointestinal illness followed by leukopenia, thrombocytopenia, and diffuse dermal melanosis with patchy desquamation. Within ~2 weeks, he developed a toxic polyneuropathy resulting in quadriparesis. Arsenic concentrations in all three patients were significantly elevated in integument tissue samples. In all three cases, arsenic concentrations in drinking water were normal but arsenic concentrations in samples of the homeopathic medications were elevated. Conclusion. Arsenic used therapeutically in homeopathic medicines can cause clinical toxicity if the medications are improperly used.A 1X homeopathic remedy consists of 1 drop of the original substance prepared as a tincture diluted in 9 drops of a 40%alcohol/water mixture. The remedy is then shaken 100 times to complete the preparation. This shaking method is referred to as succession I have heard from one member on the board that he was a victim of homeopathy and has not yet recovered from the damaging effects. Please be careful, snookered


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## I'll B Snookered (Apr 9, 2004)

Oh, I thought they were all diluted so far as to there really being no molecules of arsenic or whatever left. If not, then I can certainly see how they would be unsafe. I think arsenic is unsafe even in parts per billion, but don't quote me on that.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

They are supposed to be diluted out of existence but some are not. So be sure to enquire.


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## canada dry (Feb 18, 2002)

bonniei:Sorry I misspelled the shaking process, it is succussion not succession. The remedies that buggered me up were 200C (diluted to 1/10E200), 1M (diluted to 1/10E1,000) and 10M (diluted to 1/10E10,000) potency. Absolutely nothing of the original substance in the remedy. Anyone planning to try homeopathy do be careful. Snookered:I believe the concern of arsenic in the ppbs in drinking water is related to long term exposure and increased rates of cancers. Studies in Taiwan have shown a direct link between cancer in humans and the ingestion of well water with arsenic concentrations above 300ppb. For this reason in 2000 the US EPA proposed a reduction in the maximum contaminate level of arsenic in drinking water in the United States from 50 ppb, a level set in 1942 to 5ppb.I have not been able to find any data that shows what concentration of arsenic in water is lethal in humans from long term exposure. I guess no one was able to find any volunteers except for maybe a homeopath.







There are animal studies using concentrations in the ppms of various compounds containing arsenic.


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## ghitta (Jul 6, 2002)

don't self prescribe homeopathic treatments. find a specialist with certification (hard in america) and follow their instructions and so forth.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

bonniei, why do you keep referring to 1x arsenic. that is not homeopathy. that is like saying that a surgeon stabbed his wife therefore all surgery is dangerous. (whoops, e= not m=)Frostbite,i would like to personally thank you for being the person who piqued my curiosity in homeopathy. last June i read all your posts on it and you planted a seed of doubt in me. the seed of doubt was that i could be wrong in my belief that homeopathy could NOT possibly work.i ended up doing 3 months of research on it prior to making the appointment last October. the whole idea created such dissonance in my brain. to this day it still confounds me.i remember that i actually had anger at myself for even making the appointment. my thinking was that anyone who falls for this is a fool.to all doubters out there, i am in remission for the first time ever. i expect people to be skeptical because i still have trouble accepting it. somehow or another i think it boils down to energy treating energy. we are really just energy beings. http://www.wddty.co.uk/thefield/main.asp * The Field has been called 'a book that could change the world forever'The Field tells the story of a group of frontier scientists who discovered that the Zero Point Field - an ocean of subatomic vibrations in the space between things - connects everything in the universe, much like the Force in Star Wars.The Field offers a radically new view of the way our world and our bodies work. The human mind and body are not distinct and separate from their environment, but a packet of pulsating energy constantly interacting with this vast energy sea. The Field creates a picture of an interconnected universe and a new scientific theory which makes sense of 'supernatural 'phenomena. *


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

kel all I have to say is read Frostbite's statement


> quote:The remedies that buggered me up were 200C (diluted to 1/10E200)


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

yes bonniei i have read all his posts and i find them fascinating. what he is saying is that the remedies do indeed create some type of change in an organism. it sounds like he had more problems than benefits.i on the other hand have had what i would call a miracle recovery. i am not completely finished though. i still have some sinus problems and need more alertness during the day plus a few other things - sleep could be bettera lot of people who believe that homeopathy works come across a little flaky. frostbite was the opposite and that is why my curiosity got piqued.actually i owe several people for my introduction to homeopathy -- frostbite, the homeopath on the internet who i debated, my medical doctor who told me i should definitely try it, garywest, and the 20 to 30 people who all reported some degree of success with it on old threads from this forum... i think the number of people who have reported something positive is now close to 50.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Chicago, IllinoisNorthwestern Memorial Hospital ...among the very best in the country according to U.S. News & World Report. http://health_info.nmh.org/library/healthg...0-homeo-options "Homeopathic remedies can be very helpful to a woman with morning sickness..."***************************** http://www.jeffersonhospital.org/e3front.d...583&return=5315 Philadelphia, PAThomas Jefferson University HospitalBasic research in homeopathy has involved investigations into the chemical and biological activity of highly diluted substances. Some homeopathic medicines are diluted to concentrations as low as 10-30 to 10-20,000. This particular aspect of homeopathic theory and practice has caused many modern scientists to reject homeopathic medicine, who contend that such extreme dilutions of the medicines are beyond the point at which any active molecules of the medicine can theoretically still be found in the solution.Other scientists, who accept the potential benefits of homeopathic theory, suggest several theories to explain how highly diluted homeopathic medicines may act. Using recent developments in quantum physics, they have proposed that electromagnetic energy in the medicines may interact with the body on some level. Researchers in physical chemistry have proposed the "memory of water" theory, whereby the structure of the water-alcohol solution is altered by the medicine during the process of dilution and retains this structure even after none of the actual substance remains.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:...among the very best in the country according to U.S. News & World Report.


Obviously not anymore.


> quote:Thomas Jefferson University HospitalOther scientists, who accept the potential benefits of homeopathic theory,.


This clearly demonstrates that even "real" medical sites shouldn't automatically be assumed to contain accurate information.


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## I'll B Snookered (Apr 9, 2004)

I am too lazy to look further, but your very own place of employment has a link to homeopathy sites: http://www.aecom.yu.edu/family/links.htm and has at least one faculty member who practices--a graduate of Yale. http://www.aecom.yu.edu/family/facultybiop...lmanbiopage.htm Go Purple! Go Cats!


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## chas14 (Aug 5, 2002)

True, but it is listed with alternative therapies. There is little good evidence for the efficacy of most of them. Chiropractic has a few acceptable studies for it's help in acute back strain, but little else. To be listed in a group where chiropractic is the best of the bunch, is not a great recommendation.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:but your very own place of employment has a link to homeopathy sites:


I believe this department works out of the McDonalds in the basement.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

maurice,all i can say is that i am finally normal and can eat almost anything (dairy may be the source of brain dysfunction -- not sure). you on the other hand continue to go around in circles. your fascination with the standing xray hardly seems to be the answer for anything. http://www.aecom.yu.edu/family/facultybiop...lmanbiopage.htm * Dr. Ellen MDI graduated from Yale University School of MedicineI have had the opportunity to train in a variety of approaches to healing, from herbal therapy and nutrition to homeopathy, hypnosis, and imagery. School of Acupuncture and Oriental Studies. *In France 18 000 (32%) of all general practitioners, 700 veterinarians and 2 000 dentists (5%) prescribe homeopathic medicines to their patients. This does however not mean that they consider themselves homeopaths. Some give their patients homeopathic medicines only, but most of them do it to a variable degree. Most of them are not organised in associations for homeopaths. http://www.homeopathy-ecch.org/survey.html


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

below is a testimonial from a school teacher that i can completely relate to except that it took me longer to discover the remedies that i needed. i believe that since my problems ran much longer than linda's i needed a combination to peel away the layers. http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php...6718;p=1#000026


> quote: Hi Guys,Here's a brief overview of my experience with IBS and homeopathy:I developed IBS at the age of 15 after some type of severe gastric bug while on a trip in Florida. It got worse over several months and I was sick pretty much all the time for about 4-5 years (IBS-D). Of course I tried various medications and had lots of tests done, etc., etc.When I was about 19, on a whim, I decided to go to a free lecture on naturopathic medicine. I was intrigued but definitely not convinced that it was "for real." I made an appointment with a homeopath in Toronto. My first appointment was about 2 hours long. She asked me very detailed questions, not only about my symptoms, but also about my characteristics, emotions, etc.... By the end of the appointment, she had basically figured out what remedy she thought would be right for me. At that point, she asked me some very detailed, obscure questions (e.g., "Do you ever crave red licorice?" or "Do you get in-grown toe-nails in your big toe on your right foot?"). I was somewhat blown away because I had been eating tons of red licorice throughout that time period - I was ALWAYS craving it - and I indeed DID have the right-big-toe-ingrown-toenail! There were several examples like this, but I've forgotten them over the years. It turned out that the "remedy picture" that I fit into was Lycopodium. I started taking it at different frequencies and different potencies based on the homeopath's recommendations. My symptoms improved almost immediately and within a week, I was basically symptom-free. I got to the point where I didn't have to take it all the time - only if/when I relapsed. I did that, and found that the relapses got further and further apart, so I had to take the remedy very rarely and, eventually, not at all.I then had several years that were almost IBS-free. I had the odd bad day now and then, but they were very rare and not serious - probably as frequent as anyone who doesn't have IBS. I continued to see the homeopath for other acute illnesses that I would get. One that stands out is when I had strep throat. I woke up one morning and my throat was almost completely closed. I was home from university for the summer (still age 19), so my mom took me to an emergency clinic where I was diagnosed with strep and prescribed heavy-duty antibiotics. I finished the prescription and one day later, the strep came back. I took another complete prescription of antibiotics. Again, a day later, it came back. This happened three times, so I gave up on the antibiotics. Finally, I called my homeopath in Toronto. She told me what remedy I needed. I took it and within 1-2 days the strep was gone and never returned (and never HAS returned since then.)I am now 31 years old. In the past four years or so, I have been experiencing off-and-on IBS symptoms again, though not nearly as bad as it was when I was younger. The homeopath believes that the lycopodium took me to a certain point, but that it must not have been the exact remedy - otherise, the IBS wouldn't return. She is researching other similar/related remedies to try to find the right one. In the meantime, she continues to successfully treat me for other acute illnesses that creep up every now and then (colds, flus, etc.). I actually haven't taken any type of prescription pills for any reason since I started seeing my homeopath 12 years ago. Sorry - looks like I got a little carried away here.. this post is long! Hope this is useful to someone out there!Linda


below is flux' response.


> quote: Could it be you just got better coincidentally at the same time?


certainly that possibility exists. but it is not the case.the more likely explanation is that we humans have yet to unravel all the mysteries of the universe. the human body has some type of subtle energies about it. magnets give one such clue. they have been proven to both speed and delay the healing of fractures depening upon the polarity and placement.flux could probably tell us more.http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&...ki%2Bmagnets%2B pain%26ie%3DUTF-8%26hl%3Den%26btnG%3DGoogle%2BSearch[/URL]flux quote:"Bizzare as it sounds, there is a well-regarded study that found magnetswork for treating pain in post-polio syndrome. More studies are currentlybeing conducted as this study has made "magnetic" waves across thepain-clinic community. We will have to wait to see what they bear out. Itwould be quite intriguing if true." *"...has made "magnetic" waves" * ahhh, a little bit of fluxian humor!


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

The debate about Quantum Mechanics & HomeopathyMilgrom wrote this articlehttp://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=A...coverDate=07%2F 31%2F2003&_rdoc=7&_orig=browse&_srch=%23toc%237170%232003%23999079996%23439056!&_cdi=7170&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=344fa159e3a64499e968f02480 abe14d[/URL] J Yasgur replied thus"Kent and quantum mechanics ï¿½ References In ï¿½Patientï¿½practitionerï¿½remedy (PPR) entanglement. Part 3ï¿½,[1] the author quotes Kent (ï¿½a remedy is only homeopathic when it cures the caseï¿½) in order to support his thesis.Keeping Occam's Razor in mind, it is my opinion that Kent is simply emphasizing that one is not engaged in the art and practice of homeopathy if the simillimum is not given. Certainly one is able to interpret freely but, in this case, Kent's remark should be judged on its philosophical merit or within an historical context and not in quantum theoretical terms as Milgrom suggests. I say historically because it is also possible that Kent was commenting on the mongrelized homeopathic methods of some of his colleagues who utilized homeopathy in an allopathic fashion.If Milgrom, and others, wish to use Kent to support quantum models it would be wise to use more Kentian interpretations and references than just a single passage. References1. Milgrom LR. Patientï¿½practitionerï¿½remedy (PPR) entanglement. Part 3. Refining the quantum metaphor for for homeopathy. Homeopathy 2003; 92: 152ï¿½160. -----------------------Reply to Jay Yasgur L. R. Milgrom Department of Chemistry, Imperial College of Science, Technology and Medicine, Exhibition Road, South Kensington, London SW7 2AZ, UK Available online 9 January 2004. Yasgur has grasped the wrong end of the stick. He objects to a small part of an article, the third in a series attempting to introduce quantum theoretical notions to homeopaths and into homeopathy. This could (and I emphasise ï¿½couldï¿½ï¿½these are very early days) lead to new ways of testing homeopathy that demonstrate unequivocally to conventional biomedical scientistsï¿½that it works. And to go beyond the stultifying ideological trench warfare engendered by inconclusive double-blind placebo-controlled trials.JT Kent was not one of the founding fathers of quantum mechanics, and I certainly do NOT quote Kent in order to support my thesis. Rather I find it interesting that one could if one wished, interpret what Kent said in quantum theoretical terms, specifically about a remedy being homeopathic when it cures the case. I would refer Yasgur to one of my earlier papers (Homeopathy 2002; 91: 239ï¿½248) where I used this remark, as a jumping off point for a definition of a homeopathic remedy in quantum theoretical terms. I am not criticising or judging Kent, nor do I seek confirmation from Kent (or permission from the classical homeopathic community) for adopting a quantum theoretical approach to homeopathy.At the moment, this is an exercise in ï¿½pushing the envelopeï¿½ and seeing where it leads. Fortunately, I am not alone in this enterprise, for instance the work of Harald Walach and Michael Hyland. It may soon be possible to devise new testing procedures to confirm or refute our hypotheses. I would remind Yasgur, homeopathy proclaims itself as a science (see Vithoulkas) as well an art, and therefore puts itself in the firing line to be judged as such. Frankly, if I am going to be in such a firing line, Iï¿½d rather be tooled up with the latest (theoretical) ordnance!It is my belief that the application of quantum theoretical models (and their experimental confirmation) could ultimately provide the intellectual ï¿½fire-powerï¿½ we need to convince a sceptical bio-medical community of the benefits of homeopathy. If having read and digested the literature on quantum theoretical approaches to homeopathy Yasgur would like to ï¿½tender more Kentian interpretationsï¿½, I would be more than happy to look at them. ------------------Reply to Lionel Milgrom J. Yasgur PO Box 636, Greenville, PA 16125, USA Available online 9 January 2004. I think Dr Milgrom is too sensitive and thinks I criticise all his work. In fact, I applaud his work yet still feel he should leave our predecessors out of it. When he says ï¿½ï¿½a small part of an articleï¿½ this may, in fact, from his perspective be true, but using Kent to support quantum arguments, models and proposals is no small thing.Milgrom makes another spurious assumption when he remarks that I havenï¿½t ï¿½read or digestedï¿½ his and others work. Not true, but what I shouldï¿½ve included in my first letter was praise for his (and others) intensive and noteworthy endeavors. Nevertheless, while good in many respects, I do not feel it will ï¿½provide the intellectual fire powerï¿½ to convince the bio-medical community. What will convince those sorts is good writing, good scholarship and above all cured cases.*Finally, as Milgrom's challenge to offer ï¿½Kentian interpretationsï¿½ I have no use for such mind games. There is nothing wrong with using quotes to inspire but leave our ancestors where they belong, as pioneers and amazing personages who gave energy and love to the discipline we call homeopathy! *


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

i have to agree with yasgur in this case but who am i to argue with a professor of chemistry --dr milgrom-- who happens to know that homeopathy does indeed work.note: i fully realize that the idea of homeopathy working is about the most counterintuitive thing that i have ever come across. that is why to this very day i am still stunned.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/artic...759d84b2d5f629a Physica A: Statistical Mechanics and its Applications Volume 323 , 15 May 2003, Pages 67-74 Thermoluminescence of ultra-high dilutions of lithium chloride and sodium chloride Louis Rey, Chemin de Verdonnet 2, 1010, Lausanne, Switzerland Received 10 December 2002. Available online 28 February 2003. AbstractUltra-high dilutions of lithium chloride and sodium chloride (10−30 gcm−3) have been irradiated by X- and -rays at 77 K, then progressively rewarmed to room temperature. During that phase, their thermoluminescence has been studied and it was found that, *despite their dilution beyond the Avogadro number, the emitted light was specific of the original salts dissolved initially. * Corresponding author. Tel.: +41-21-652-09-66; fax: +41-21-652-09-67 Physica A: Statistical Mechanics and its Applications Volume 323 , 15 May 2003, Pages 67-74 ============================================The evidence is overwhelming for polar solutions being capable of information storage.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quoteuring that phase, their thermoluminescence has been studied and it was found that, despite their dilution beyond the Avogadro number, the emitted light was specific of the original salts dissolved initially


Sounds like


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Raphael Visocekas from the Denis Diderot University of Paris, who watched Rey carry out some of his experiments, says he is convinced. "The experiments showed a very nice reproducibility," he told New Scientist. * "It is trustworthy physics." * http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993817


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=15287434 Homeopathy. 2004 Jul;93(3):144-50.Permanent physico-chemical properties of extremely diluted aqueous solutions of homeopathic medicines.Elia V, Baiano S, Duro I, Napoli E, Niccoli M, Nonatelli L.Department of Chemistry, University Federico II of Naples, Complesso, Universitario di Monte S. Angelo, via Cintia 80126, Naples, Italy. elia###chemistry.unina.itThe purpose of this study was to obtain information about the influence of successive dilutions and succussions on the water structure. 'Extremely diluted solutions' (EDS) are solutions obtained through the iteration of two processes: dilution in stages of 1:100 and succussion, typically used in homeopathic medicine. The iteration is repeated until extreme dilutions are reached, so that the chemical composition of the solution is identical to that of the solvent. Nine different preparations, were studied from the 3cH to 30cH (Hanhemannian Centesimal Dilution). Four of those were without the active principle (potentized water). Two different active principles were used: Arsenicum sulphuratum rubrum (ASR), As4S4, 2,4-dichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4D). The solvents were: a solution of sodium bicarbonate and of silicic acid at 5 x 10(-5) M (mol/l) each, and solutions of sodium bicarbonate 5 x 10(-5), 7.5 x 10(-5) and 10 x 10(-5) M (mol/l) in double-distilled water. The containers were Pyrex glass to avoid the release of alkaline oxide and silica from the walls. Conductivity measurements of the solutions were carried out as a function of the age of the potencies. We found increases of electrical conductivity compared to untreated solvent. Successive dilution and succussion can permanently alter the physico-chemical properties of the aqueous solvent. But we also detected changes in physio-chemical parameters with time. This has not previously been reported. The modification of the solvent could provide an important support to the validity of homeopathic medicine, that employs 'medicines without molecules'. The nature of the phenomena here described remains still unexplained, nevertheless some significant experimental results were obtained.PMID: 15287434 [PubMed - in process]


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Biologische Medizin/Heft 1/February 2004Professor Karen Nieber, head of the institute for pharmacy at Leipzig University, set about proving that homeopathy does not work and at the most can be explained by the so-called placebo effect. It was whilst looking for a test arrangement which totally excluded any placebo effect that she came up with the following idea: she placed a rat intestines in a nutrient solution and fixed it using organic threads to a sensor in order to measure the reduction of the intestines through contraction. She then added a stimulant to the nutrient solution, which caused a strong contraction of the rat intestines.Professor Karen Nieber, as a pharmacologist, expected that the treatment with a homeopathic agent with a potenz above C12 would have no effect against the enterospasms, since there are no more active agents present above this potenz. In order to make the degree of dilution apprehensible: a C14 is like a single drop in all the worlds’ oceans together!In Leipzig they then added Belladonna D90 to the nutrient solution with the rat intestines cramped through the stimulant they had added and lo and behold, the enterospasms ceased immediately, the measuring device registered the relaxation of the intestines.What Hahnemann declared two hundred years ago in order to defend his homeopathy may also apply to the Leipzig study:"I don’t demand any belief in it, nor require that someone understands it. Even I don’t understand it; but enough, the facts are so and not otherwise. Only the experience says it, which I believe more than my own comprehension."


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

(the study is translated here)Biologische Medizin/Heft 1/February 2004In-vitro testing of homeopathic dillutionsFor two hundred years, a great number of diseases has been treated using homeopathic remedies. For example in cases of inflammation or disturbed motililty within theGI tract.Previous studies on homeopathic remedies lack statements on the pharmacocinetics and the pharmacodynamics of the medicines.Objective evaluation of homeopathic action can only be available, when, by means of analytical-chemical and pharmacological methods, prove of the action of a remedy is brought about by scientifically based reasoning.In this study, an in-vitro testing procedure has been established, which makes it provable, if there is an effect caused by the homeopathic remedy applied.Homeopathic preparations of Belladonna D6-D100 (produced by DHU, Germany, Charge 3171200, application of the German Homeopathic Pharmacopoeia) were used in the experiments. The tests shall provide data on the action of low -, medium -, and high potencies of Belladonna on the contractions of the smooth muscles of specimens of the fundus/corpus of the stomach and ileum of the rat, the contractions being triggered by the transmitters ACh, SP (substance P) and histamine, and by potassium-ions (K+).For comparison-reasons, Belladonna dilutions have been produced only by carefully stirring the mixture, avoiding the processes applied when making potentized remedies.A commercial product to measure the muscular contractions has been used (by TSE, Bad Homburg).Measuring was done under isometric conditions. As the nutrient solution, a modified Krebs-solution (NaCl [130,5 mM]; KCl [4,86 mM]; MgCl2 [1,2 mM]; NaH2PO4 [1,97 mM]; Na2HPO4 [4,63 mM]; CaCl2 [2,4 mM]; Glucose [11,4 mM], pH equal 7,3; T equal 36ï¿½C), being at the right temperature, has been used. The solution has been gased with carbogen.The homeopathic dilutions of Belladonna (20ï¿½l) have been added two minutes ahead of the stimuli (ACh, SP, histamine, OR Potassium). At the beginning and at the end of each single experiment, contractions have been triggered by the substance tested (ACh, SP, histamine, Potassium).Analogously, non-homeopathic dilutions of Belladonna (V6-V100) were tested.Statistics: Calculations were done on the percentual changes in relation to the control-contractions. Control-contractions have been measured using the mean of the contraction ahead of the testing procedure and after rinsing out the test-dilution.Statistical validitation was done using the paired and unpaired Student's t-test. P less than 0.05 has been regarded as being significant.ACh: D6 effects a considerable increase of the contraction. The higher the potencies, the more the contractions weaken. D18 and D32 did not cause any significant change. Non-potentized remedies (V6, V8, V10, V18, V100) do not show singnificant changes.SP: Homeopathic dilutions have influence on the contractions. D6 enforces the contractions. D10, D18, D32 lessen the contractions. At D18 or higher, contractions seem to be hindered. The strongest hindrance is reached with a dillution of D60. D100 has no stronger effect. V6 and V8 considerably rise the strength of the contractions, whereas dilutions of V10 or higher have no effect.Histamine: D6, D10, D18, D32 have no effect on the contractions. The specimen react on histamine only very weak, with a maximum contraction of 0,5 mN. This is why the histamine-induced contractions on ileum-specimens are not suited for the research on homeopathic dilutions of Belladonna.Potassium: D6 -D32 do not have significant influence on the contractions induced by potassium.The research proves that homeopathic dilutions of Belladonna do have an influence on the motility of the gastrointestinal system. Influence is apparent in ACh- and SP-induced contractions. Contractions triggered by other kinds of signals (histamine on H1-receptors, K+-depolarisation) are not influenced by homeopathic Belladonna. This tells us, that Belladonna apparently does not have effect on the smooth muscle itself, but on the nerval mechanisms of communication.The effect of the high potencies of Belladonna cannot be due to the effects of the material substance of Belladonna. It is possible, that by the processes of homeopathic potentization, structure and dynamics of the liquid vehicle of the medicine are modified leading to a physico-chemiclal influence on mechanisms of communication.the original article is written by Prof. Dr. Karen Nieber. The article is printed in the journal: Biologische Medizin/Heft 1/Februar 2004


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

More evidence for ultra dilute solutions and bioactivity. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=21077265 : Neuroreport. 2001 Feb 12,;12(2):335-9. Related Articles, Links Neuroprotection from glutamate toxicity with ultra-low dose glutamate.Jonas W, Lin Y, Tortella F.Department of Family Medicine, Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences, Bethesda, MD 20814, USA.The protective effects of ultra-low doses (ULD) of glutamate against glutamate toxicity was studied in primary rat spinal, cortical and cerebellar neurons. Neurons were exposed to four subtoxic, ultra-low concentrations of glutamate (10(-18) M, 10(-20)M, 10(-22) M and 10(-30) M) for 72 h and then subsequently challenged with toxic concentrations (25 microM) of glutamate. Neuron viability was consistently 10% higher in spinal and cortical neurons pre-exposed to glutamate concentrations of 10(-18) M and 10(-22) M, and in cerebellar neurons pre-exposed to 10(-20) M and 10(-30) M. Using laser scanning confocal microscopy and the fluorescent calcium probe fluo-3, we found no alterations in intracellular calcium dynamics in the protected cells. This protective effect is consistent with a growing body of evidence for tolerance induced by low-dose toxin exposure but is the first time that such tolerance has been demonstrated with ultra-low glutamate exposure. Our data show that pre-exposure of neuronal cells to ULD glutamate can protect against subsequent exposure to toxic levels of glutamate.PMID: 11209946 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

> quote:Martin Chaplin from London's South Bank University, an expert on water and hydrogen bonding, is not so sure. "Rey's rationale for water memory seems most unlikely," he says. "Most hydrogen bonding in liquid water rearranges when it freezes." "He points out that the two thermoluminescence peaks Rey observed occur around the temperatures where ice is known to undergo transitions between different phases. He suggests that *tiny amounts of impurities in the samples*, perhaps due to inefficient mixing, could be getting concentrated at the boundaries between different phases in the ice and *causing the changes in thermoluminescence.*"


 http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993817


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Raphael Visocekas from the Denis Diderot University of Paris, who watched Rey carry out some of his experiments, says he is convinced. "The experiments showed a very nice reproducibility," he told New Scientist. "It is trustworthy physics."










Could the free toy be a physics degree?


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: Martin Chaplin from London's South Bank University, an expert on water and hydrogen bonding, is not so sure. "Rey's rationale for water memory seems most unlikely," he says. "Most hydrogen bonding in liquid water rearranges when it freezes." "He points out that the two thermoluminescence peaks Rey observed occur around the temperatures where ice is known to undergo transitions between different phases. He suggests that tiny amounts of impurities in the samples, perhaps due to inefficient mixing, could be getting concentrated at the boundaries between different phases in the ice and causing the changes in thermoluminescence."


Typical knee jerk reaction from someone who is uncomfortable with new ideas.There are no impurities. this was reproduced several times with different radiation sources (xrays, gamma rays), and the control D2O 15CH would have showed an impurity also. At 15CH the odds of any ions remaining is over a million to one.The fact is that polar solvents are capable of some type of information storage as proven by the korean studies and others. http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991532 From page 71, "Much to our surprise, the experimental results do show- *without any ambiguity*- that for an X-ray dose of 0:4 kGy the thermoluminescence glows of the three systems were substantially di erent (Fig. 66). These findings did prove to be reproducible in the course of many different identical experiments.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:"Much to our surprise, the experimental results do showï¿½ without any ambiguityï¿½


In other words,


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

The evidence says otherwise http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=21077265 : Neuroreport. 2001 Feb 12,;12(2):335-9. Related Articles, Links Neuroprotection from glutamate toxicity with ultra-low dose glutamate.Jonas W, Lin Y, Tortella F.Department of Family Medicine, Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences, Bethesda, MD 20814, USA. http://else.hebis.de/cgi-bin/sciser...=307_neocigcrcn Neurotoxicology Vol: 23, Issue: 3, September, 2002 Non-Linear Effects of Cycloheximide in Glutamate-Treated Cultured Rat Cerebellar Neurons http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...5&dopt=Abstract Time related neutralization of two doses acetyl salicylic acid.Aguejouf O, Malfatti E, Belon P, Doutremepuich C.Laboratoire d'Hematologie, Faculte de Pharmacie, 146, Rue Leo-Saignat 33 076 Bordeaux Cedex, France. http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991532 Bizarre chemical discovery gives homeopathic hint 19:00 07 November 01 http://www.vhan.nl/documents/Rey.thermoluminescence.pdf Abstract Ultra-high dilutions of lithium chloride and sodium chloride (10 −30 g cm −3 ) have been irradiated by X-rays and gamma-rays at 77 K, then progressively rewarmed to room temperature. During that phase, their thermoluminescence has been studied and it was found that, despite their dilution beyond the Avogadro number, the emitted light was specific of the original salts dissolved initially. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=15004445 [Article in German]Kratky KW.Institut fur Experimentalphysik der Universitat Wien, Vienna, Austria. karl.kratzky###univie.ac.atCONCLUSIONS: The computer experiments suggest that the repeated process of potentiation eventually results in a specific metastable state of the pure solvent. The initial substance helps to obtain this goal, but is no longer necessary at last. Copyright 2004 S. Karger GmbH, FreiburgPMID: 15004445 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=15287434 Permanent physico-chemical properties of extremely diluted aqueous solutions of homeopathic medicines.Elia V, Baiano S, Duro I, Napoli E, Niccoli M, Nonatelli L.Department of Chemistry, University Federico II of Naples, Complesso, Universitario di Monte S. Angelo, via Cintia 80126, Naples, Italy. elia###chemistry.unina.it http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=15105967 2004Inflamm Res. 2004 Apr;53(5):181-8. Epub 2004 Apr 21. Related Articles, Links http://www.newscientist.com/misc/po...id=ns99993817F1 Biologische Medizin/Heft 1/February 2004The research proves that homeopathic dilutions of Belladonna do have an influence on the motility of the gastrointestinal system. Influence is apparent in ACh- and SP-induced contractions. Contractions triggered by other kinds of signals (histamine on H1-receptors, K+-depolarisation) are not influenced by homeopathic Belladonna. This tells us, that Belladonna apparently does not have effect on the smooth muscle itself, but on the nerval mechanisms of communication.The effect of the high potencies of Belladonna cannot be due to the effects of the material substance of Belladonna. It is possible, that by the processes of homeopathic potentization, structure and dynamics of the liquid vehicle of the medicine are modified leading to a physico-chemiclal influence on mechanisms of communication. http://www.homeopathy-israel.co.il/Ennis1.pdf http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cach...nd+Belon+&hl=en 1999The biological action of ultra high dilutions is controversial [1, 2]. Inhibition of anti-IgE induced basophil degranulation by successive histamine dilutions is of interest, as it studies a chemically defined compound (histamine) which exerts a negative feed back effect via the histamine H 2 receptor http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/A...,4152521,00.htm "Despite my reservations against the science of homoeopathy," says Ennis, "the results compel me to suspend my disbelief and to start searching for a rational explanation for our findings." " http://my.webmd.com/content/article/30/1728_72611 http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6882/3/7


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:The evidence says otherwise


That was the evidence I was talking about.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Some of my links above don't work because I copied them from another web page.For your pleasure, flux, I will fix them.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=21077265 : Neuroreport. 2001 Feb 12,;12(2):335-9. Related Articles, Links Neuroprotection from glutamate toxicity with ultra-low dose glutamate.Jonas W, Lin Y, Tortella F.Department of Family Medicine, Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences, Bethesda, MD 20814, USA.The protective effects of ultra-low doses (ULD) of glutamate against glutamate toxicity was studied in primary rat spinal, cortical and cerebellar neurons. Neurons were exposed to four subtoxic, ultra-low concentrations of glutamate (10(-18) M, 10(-20)M, 10(-22) M and 10(-30) M) for 72 h and then subsequently challenged with toxic concentrations (25 microM) of glutamate. Neuron viability was consistently 10% higher in spinal and cortical neurons pre-exposed to glutamate concentrations of 10(-18) M and 10(-22) M, and in cerebellar neurons pre-exposed to 10(-20) M and 10(-30) M. Using laser scanning confocal microscopy and the fluorescent calcium probe fluo-3, we found no alterations in intracellular calcium dynamics in the protected cells. This protective effect is consistent with a growing body of evidence for tolerance induced by low-dose toxin exposure but is the first time that such tolerance has been demonstrated with ultra-low glutamate exposure. Our data show that pre-exposure of neuronal cells to ULD glutamate can protect against subsequent exposure to toxic levels of glutamate. http://else.hebis.de/cgi-bin/sciserv.pl?co...=307_neocigcrcn Neurotoxicology Vol: 23, Issue: 3, September, 2002 Non-Linear Effects of Cycloheximide in Glutamate-Treated Cultured Rat Cerebellar NeuronsMultiple cell types and organisms across a wide array of phyla and a variety of toxins demonstrate non-linear dose responses to low-level chemical exposures with high doses inhibiting cellular function and low doses stimulating function. We tested whether such non-linear responses to low and ultra-low dose N-methyl-d-aspartate (NMDA), 1-methyl-4-phenylpyridinium (MPP+) or cycloheximide moderated toxic glutamate exposure in cultured cerebellar granule cells. Neurons were incubated over 72h with successive NMDA, MPP+ iodide or cycloheximide additions producing specified low (10−5, 10−7, 10−9, 10−11, and 10−13M) and ultra-low (10−27, 10−29, 10−63, and 10−65M) concentrations. Subsequently these neuronal cells were exposed to a 50% excitotoxic concentration of glutamate for 24h. Neuronal viability was significantly reduced in neurons treated with micromolar (10−5M) cycloheximide whereas viability was enhanced in neurons treated with an ultra-low dose exposure of 10−27M cycloheximide. Neither NMDA nor MPP+ elicited harmful or protective responses. This is the first report demonstrating non-linear dose-response effects of cycloheximide in low and ultra-low concentration ranges.Publisher: Elsevier Science


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...5&dopt=Abstract Time related neutralization of two doses acetyl salicylic acid.Aguejouf O, Malfatti E, Belon P, Doutremepuich C.Laboratoire d'Hematologie, Faculte de Pharmacie, 146, Rue Leo-Saignat 33 076 Bordeaux Cedex, France.Aspirin has a well established role in the prevention of arterial thrombosis. Discussion on the efficacy and safety of aspirin in the treatment and prophylaxis of thrombosis has become an important issue. In fact, hemorrhage complications are often associated with its use. On the other hand, previous studies showed unexpected thrombotic potencies associated with the presence of this drug at ultra low doses (ULD) in the circulation. In this study, we aimed to evaluate the effect of aspirin at ULD, injected 1, 2, or 3 hours after the administration of aspirin at 100 mg/kg, on hemostasis and bleeding in rats. We used an experimental model of thrombosis induced by laser beams to evaluate these effects. Platelet aggregation was determined by Cardinal and Flower method. Results from this investigation demonstrate that the neutralizing effect of aspirin at ULD did not operate significantly 1 hour after the injection of aspirin at 100 mg/kg. *This effect was observed 2 and 3 hours after. *The use of aspirin at ULD to neutralize the side effects of aspirin at high doses will reduce the hemorrhagic risk during extra corporeal circulation. The therapeutic benefit and safety of aspirin therapy in the treatment of cardiovascular diseases can be obtained.PMID: 11113275 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=15287434 Permanent physico-chemical properties of extremely diluted aqueous solutions of homeopathic medicines.Elia V, Baiano S, Duro I, Napoli E, Niccoli M, Nonatelli L.Department of Chemistry, University Federico II of Naples, Complesso, Universitario di Monte S. Angelo, via Cintia 80126, Naples, Italy. elia###chemistry.unina.itThe purpose of this study was to obtain information about the influence of successive dilutions and succussions on the water structure. 'Extremely diluted solutions' (EDS) are solutions obtained through the iteration of two processes: dilution in stages of 1:100 and succussion, typically used in homeopathic medicine. The iteration is repeated until extreme dilutions are reached, so that the chemical composition of the solution is identical to that of the solvent. Nine different preparations, were studied from the 3cH to 30cH (Hahnemannian Centesimal Dilution). Four of those were without the active principle (potentized water). Two different active principles were used: Arsenicum sulphuratum rubrum (ASR), As4S4, 2,4-dichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4D). The solvents were: a solution of sodium bicarbonate and of silicic acid at 5 x 10(-5) M (mol/l) each, and solutions of sodium bicarbonate 5 x 10(-5), 7.5 x 10(-5) and 10 x 10(-5) M (mol/l) in double-distilled water. The containers were Pyrex glass to avoid the release of alkaline oxide and silica from the walls. Conductivity measurements of the solutions were carried out as a function of the age of the potencies. We found increases of electrical conductivity compared to untreated solvent. Successive dilution and succussion can permanently alter the physico-chemical properties of the aqueous solvent. But we also detected changes in physio-chemical parameters with time. This has not previously been reported. The modification of the solvent could provide an important support to the validity of homeopathic medicine, that employs 'medicines without molecules'. The nature of the phenomena here described remains still unexplained, nevertheless some significant experimental results were obtained.PMID: 15287434 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/...,4152521,00.htm A consortium of four independent research laboratories in France, Italy, Belgium, and Holland, led by Professor M Roberfroid at Belgium's Catholic University of Louvain in Brussels, used a refinement of Benveniste's original experiment that examined another aspect of basophil activation. The team knew that activation of basophil degranulation by aIgE leads to powerful mediators being released, including large amounts of histamine, which sets up a negative feedback cycle that curbs its own release. So the experiment the pan-European team planned involved comparing inhibition of basophil aIgE-induced degranulation with "ghost" dilutions of histamine against control solutions of pure water. In order to make sure no bias was introduced into the experiment by the scientists from the four laboratories involved, they were all "blinded" to the contents of their test solutions. In other words, they did not know whether the solutions they were adding to the basophil-aIgE reaction contained ghost amounts of histamine or just pure water. But that's not all. The ghost histamine solutions and the controls were prepared in three different laboratories that had nothing further to do with the trial. The whole experiment was coordinated by an independent researcher who coded all the solutions and collated the data, but was not involved in any of the testing or analysis of the data from the experiment. Not much room, therefore, for fraud or wishful thinking. So the results when they came were a complete surprise. "Despite my reservations against the science of homoeopathy," says Ennis, "the results compel me to suspend my disbelief and to start searching for a rational explanation for our findings." "


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=15105967 2004Inflamm Res. 2004 Apr;53(5):181-8. Epub 2004 Apr 21. Related Articles, Links CONCLUSIONS: In 3 different types of experiment, it has been shown that high dilutions of histamine may indeed exert an effect on basophil activity. This activity observed by staining basophils with alcian blue was confirmed by flow cytometry. Inhibition by histamine was reversed by anti-H2 and was not observed with histidine these results being in favour of the specificity of this effect We are however unable to explain our findings and are reporting them to encourage others to investigate this phenomenon.PMID: 15105967 [PubMed - in process] * This experiment has been reproduced several times -- 2004, 2001, 1999, 1997, 1993, etc *


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.mercola.com/2003/jun/28/homeopathy.htm *New Evidence Supports Science Behind Homeopathy * The notion that water retains a memory of substances once dissolved in it is central to homeopathy. While the claim has brought about much controversy, evidence has come out to support the claim scientifically. Although the structure of hydrogen bonds in pure water should be identical to those in homeopathic dilutions of salt solutions, the evidence finds that the structures are actually very different. Researchers used thermoluminescence to study the structure of solids. The process involves bathing a chilled sample with radiation and then observing a pattern of light, which reflects the sample's atomic structure, that is released when the sample is warmed up. When researchers used the method on ice, they saw two peaks of light. They then looked at solutions of lithium chloride, which destroys hydrogen bonds, and sodium chloride, which also destroys hydrogen bonds but to a lesser extent. The peak for the sodium chloride solution was smaller and disappeared for the lithium chloride solution. Homeopaths believe that patterns of hydrogen bonds remain even after many dilutions. To test this claim, researchers used samples that had been diluted way beyond the point when any ions of the original substance could remain. Compared with pure water, the ultra-dilute lithium and sodium chloride solutions had substantially different thermoluminescence peaks. According to researchers, this proves that the networks of hydrogen bonds in the samples were different. =============================== http://www.vhan.nl/documents/Rey.thermoluminescence.pdf Abstract Ultra-high dilutions of lithium chloride and sodium chloride (10 −30 g cm −3 ) have been irradiated by X-rays and gamma-rays at 77 K, then progressively rewarmed to room temperature. During that phase, their thermoluminescence has been studied and it was found that, *despite their dilution beyond the Avogadro number, the emitted light was specific of the original salts dissolved initially. *=========================== http://www.newscientist.com/misc/popup_ns....id=ns99993817F1 ===========================


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

K.H. Friese, S. Kruse, H. Moeller Acute Otitis Media in Children: A Comparison of Conventional and Homeopathic Treatment Biomedical Therapy, 60,4,1997:113-116 (Originally published in German in Hals-Nasen-Ohren (Head, Nose, and Otolyngarology, August, 1996:462-66). This study of 131 children allowed parents to choose homeopathic or conventional medical care from their ear, nose, and throat doctor. 103 children underwent homeopathic treatment, while 28 underwent conventional care. They found that the total recurrences of the homeopathic treated group was .41 per patient, while the antibiotic treatment group was .70 per patient. Of the "homeopathic" children who did have another earache, 29.3% had a maximum of three recurrences, while 43.5% of the "antibiotic" children had a maximum of six recurrences.M. Weiser, W. Strosser, P. Klein, Homeopathic vs. Conventional Treatment of Vertigo: A Randomized Double-Blind Controlled Clinical Study Archives of Otolaryngology--Head and Neck Surgery, August, 1998, 124:879-885. This was a study with 119 subjects with various types of vertigo, half of whom were given a homeopathic medicine (a combination of four homeopathic medicines) and half were given a leading conventional drug in Europe for vertigo, betahistine hydrochloride. The homeopathic medicines were found to be similarly effective and significantly safer than the conventional control. D. Reilly, M. Taylor, N. Beattie, et al., Is Evidence for Homoeopathy Reproducible? Lancet, December 10, 1994, 344:1601-6. This study successfully reproduced evidence from two previous double-blinded trials all of which used the same model of homeopathic immunotherapy in inhalant allergy. In this third study, 9 of 11 patients on homeopathic treatment improved compared to only 5 of 13 patients on placebo. The researchers concluded that either homeopathic medicines work or controlled studies don't. Their work has again be recently replicated and is submitted for publication. (See Is Homeopathy a Placebo Response? Lancet 1986, below.) E. Ernst, T. Saradeth, and K.L. Resch, Complementary Treatment of Varicose Veins: A Randomized Placebo-controlled, Double-Blind Trial, Phlebology, 1990, 5:157-163. This study of 61 patients showed a 44% improvement in venous filling time in the homeopathic treated group when compared with placebo. P. Fisher, A. Greenwood, E.C. Huskisson, et al., Effect of Homoeopathic Treatment on Fibrositis British Medical Journal, August 5, 1989, 299:365-66. This trial was double-blind with a crossover design, comparing R toxicodendron to a placebo in 30 patients all suffering from an identical syndrome identified as the admission criteria. It showed a significant reduction in tender spots, by 25%, when patients were given the homeopathic medicine, as compared to when they were given the placebo.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

The day you when you *just one* piece of evidence


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.entretiens-internationaux.mc/cambar.htm Two hundred sixty five mice were pretreated with 10-30 M mercury according to the previous protocol with only 5 mg Hg/kg of HgCl2 at 5 different months in the year (october, december, february, april and june). In all experiments, the mortality was recorded daily during ten days after intoxication to assess the kinetics of the mortality rate. Statistical analysis was performed using both the frequency comparison test and the Cosinor method. The results of these experiments clearly show that the pretreatment with mercury high dilutions can induce an important reduction of the letal toxicity of HgCl2, especially when the amount of HgCl2 administered is as close as possible to the letal dose LD50 value.Indeed, as outlined in figure 1, when the mice received 5 mg/kg, 73.4% of the animals died in the control group, against 50% and 26.7% (p less than 0.01) only in the samples pretreated with 10-18 or 10-30 M mercury respectively. Similarly, when the mice were given 6 mg Hg/kg, 78.5% of the controls died while 66.7% of the 10-18 M mercury-pretreated and only 35.7% of the 10-30 M mercury-pretreated mice were lost (p less than 0.01). This protective effect disappeared when the highest challenging dose of Hg/kg (7 mg) was administered, since the mortality rates were 93.3 for the controls and 73.4 and 78.5% (NS) for the pretreated groups.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

Looks off the scale to me.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991532 This study gives undeniable proof that polar solvents (water, ammonia, etc) possess a special property that was completely unknown just a few years ago. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=15004445 This shows that once the solute (from the Korean study above) has disappeared the process that was started will continue. http://www.vhan.nl/documents/Rey.thermoluminescence.pdf This experiment is the definitive proof that polar solvents possess a memory of some type. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=15105967 --and this study -----which has been reproduced over and over and over------ shows that memory water has bioactive properties.=========================================.We are dealing with research that has been published in refereed journals by bona fide, highly respected researchers.JRKatz - are you still rolling on the floor laughing your *** off like you claimed a few months ago?========================================.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)




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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=11737881 CONCLUSIONS: Both Cad Sulph-30 and 200 were able to combat cadmium induced genotoxic effects in mice and that combined pre- and post-feeding mode of administration was found to be most effective in reducing the genotoxic effect of CdCl2 followed by the post-feeding mode.


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

They does researchs on that stuff?I will strart to take a look.


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## crankypants (Aug 25, 2002)

Interesting how often I come across people voicing irritation with posts that make us scroll through too many words, and how infrequently (once, maybe?) I've seen anyone complain about having to scroll through screen after screen of graphical tantrums. The pure existential truth that needs to be asserted here is that an observation of cause and effect is not ipso facto false or illusory merely because scientific officialdom lacks an explanation for it. I will repeat for the benefit of anyone who hasn't given up on this thread (whatever happened to Painter?) a point I have expressed here before: Homeopathy works on small animals, and the idea of a placebo effect in these creatures has to be considered far-fetched at best. As someone said early on in this thread, homeopathy needs to be practiced with some knowledge, skill, and talent. I've tried homeopathic self-prescribing and none of it has worked save for the obvious uses of Arnica montana. But in tandem with my homeopathic veterinarian I have seen sensational results. Just this week, we have cured a fairly nasty anal sac abscess in my 13-year-old cat using Hepar sulph and a couple of warm compresses applied to a rather reluctant patient. I defy anyone to do that any other way without resorting to antibiotics.Find a good practitioner (there's the rub!) and give it a shot. It could save you from a whole lot of allopathic interventions that do way more harm than good.(And take note of my signature before replying to this... I ain't biting any bait.)


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Hi kel, glad to know you are doing well on homeopathy. I believe it works because it attacks the body and mind as a whole. Assuming they use dilutions in India and not some chemicals like flux or someone claims they sometimes use. I went from a mouth tuirned downwards into a cheerful drooling type when I was on it







. So it certainly attacked the psyche. Maybe I didn't have the right meds when on homeopathy. Have you noticed any unwanted side-effects?


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:is that an observation of cause and effect


No such observation was ever made.


> quote:Homeopathy works on small animals,












> quote: homeopathy needs to be practiced with some knowledge, skill, and talent. I


In other words by a


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

I don't have read your researchs kel but i wonder if there is any researchs with homeopathy and IBS.I need a magician as well as Flux.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

spasman,i have never run across a published study for its use in treating IBS. There are several where it has been used in various GI disorders. The results are mostly positive but not entirely.9 of the trials from the giant meta-analysis (Linde 1997) were specific to GI problems. I need to try and locate the studies but they are mostly of european origin which makes it tough.======================================Kleijnen 1991British Medical Journal. 107 trials. Criteria-based meta-analysis.  77% are positive  The higher the scientific merit of the study, the more likely it is to show homoeopathy as superior to placebo. The evidence presented in this review would probably be sufficient for establishing homoeopathy as a regular treatment for certain conditions.Boissel 1996Report for European Commission. 15 trials. Very strict inclusion criteria. Meta-analysis; data synthesis by combining the significance levels (p-values) for the primary outcomes from each trial.  Combined p value for the 15 trials was highly significant p=0.0002.  ' There is evidence that homeopathic medicine is more effective than placebo' .  Little evidence of publication bias.  Further high quality studies are needed.Linde 1997* 9 of these studies were GI studies *Lancet. 89 trials. Meta-analysis; data synthesis by combining the odds ratios.  Combined odds ratio 2.45 (95% CI 2.05, 2.93) in favour of homeopathy.  Odds ratio for 26 best quality studies was 1.66.  No evidence of significant publication bias.  The results are not compatible with the hypothesis that the clinical effects of homeopathy are completely due to placebo. =============================================


> quote: Hi kel, glad to know you are doing well on homeopathy. I believe it works because it attacks the body and mind as a whole. Assuming they use dilutions in India and not some chemicals like flux or someone claims they sometimes use. I went from a mouth tuirned downwards into a cheerful drooling type when I was on it . So it certainly attacked the psyche. Maybe I didn't have the right meds when on homeopathy. Have you noticed any unwanted side-effects?


Hello bonniei,Yes, I have had some unwanted side effects. Of course, the good has far outweighed the bad. I got a particularly annoying side effect from taking a 1LM lycopodium remedy for too long.--------------------------------------The theory that makes the most sense to me is that a remedy is like an "artificial disease" that the immune system is able to pick up on and then respond to it. In responding to this artificial disease, the body will also be addressing the original disease. Dana Ullman writes about this in his books. ================================--- and it seems that UCLA has a team of researchers who are very involved in homeopathy research. it is led by Professor Bonavida --- he is a cancer specialist.I have some information to post from his team.================================below is the best explanation that I have uncovered so far._ *The distinguished Italian physicist Emilio del Giudici* has set forth a theory that helps explain homeopathy's mode of therapeutic action. Del Giudici proposes that water molecules form structures capable of storing minute electromagnetic signals. This proposition is given added weight by the findings of Dr. Wolfgang Ludwig, a German biophysicist, who has demonstrated in preliminary research that homeopathic substances give off measurable electromagnetic signals. These signals show that specific frequencies are dominant in each homeopathic substance. If del Giudici's model is accurate, a homeopathic remedy may convey an electromagnetic "message" to the body that matches the specific electromagnetic frequency or pattern of an illness in order to stimulate the body's natural healing response. What Dr. Hahnemann may have been doing in his empirical research was unwittingly "matching the frequencies of the plant extract with the frequency of the [patient's] illness." _


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:I don't have read your researchs kel but i wonder if there is any researchs with homeopathy and IBS.


I can't even find the research on homeopathy. Anyone?


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

2004 study on BASOPHILSFull paper ----- HTML version --- 2004 http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:wZ6tV...araj+ives&hl=en Full paper ---- PDF version -- 2004 http://www.amhmg.org/Histamin2004.pdf Abstract --- 2004 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=15105967 Inflamm Res. 2004 Apr;53(5):181-8. Epub 2004 Apr 21. Related Articles, Links Histamine dilutions modulate basophil activation.this paper is brilliant in its design. it has been reproduced mnay times through the years. the significance of p is < 0.0001jrkatz attacked it because boiron paid for it. that is ridiculous. to imply that boiron paid off dozens of researchers and statisticians all over europe for several years in a row is beyond absurd. they put up the money and had no further involvement whatsoever. the histamine dilutions were prepared in a couple of different labs.the fact is that there IS definitely something going on here and it has to do with the ability of polar solvents to remember the solute.the papers from Physica A and Chemical Communications all back this up.the evidence is out there all one has to do is sit down and study it.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Flux,i had no evidence whatsoever that it would work for IBS. i thought it was the most RIDICULOUS thing i had ever heard of but I tried hard to keep an open mind.If you remember, last year (may 2003) i started a topic on the subject. I was looking to see if anyone had any positive experiences. it seems that many did. Of course our scientist friend -- Frostbite-- had only negative reactions to it (nasty side effects!!!).Anyway, all i can say is that i am now entirely free of this 20 year curse, and I am very close to having all of my problems solved. i was polysymptomatic, and it seemed as though i would be chained to drugs for the rest of my life.(hint: steven barrett is an ###wholl and he is paid to discredit anything that big pharm wants discredited. http://www.quackpotwatch.org/ )


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: i thought it was the most RIDICULOUS thing i had ever heard of


This is


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

flux,i promised you some research from a team of scientists at UCLA concerning homeopathic dilutions and cancer research being conducted by Professor Bonavida and several others.i haven't gotten around to it yet, so please be patient.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

University of Arizona study of fibromyalgia http://rheumatology.oupjournals.org/cgi/co.../short/keh111v1 This study was a *double-blind, randomized, parallel-group, placebo-controlled trial* of homeopathy. [...homeopathic remedy or an indistinguishable placebo]Results. Fifty-three people completed the treatment protocol. Participants on active treatment showed *significantly greater *improvements in...


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

Graphical representation of the above result:


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

What was the mix?


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

spas, they used many remedies.============================================= http://www.arthritis.org/resources/arthrit..._homeopathy.asp Homeopathy is a mystery. Scientists canï¿½t explain it, and neither can those who use it. But for more than 150 years, people have been saying it works. Should you give it a try?Homeopathy is among the most popular alternative therapies in the United States, and even more popular in Europe and Canada where such "remedies" can be found side-by-side with conventional drugs in many pharmacies. Itï¿½s used worldwide not only by homeopaths, but by some medical doctors as well as naturopaths, chiropractors, herbalists, midwives and sometimes even veterinarians. Most doctors tend to scratch their heads ï¿½ or shake them in disbelief ï¿½ whenever the subject of homeopathy comes up. Itï¿½s an alien concept that goes against almost everything understood in modern medicine. While much of homeopathyï¿½s appeal is based on hearsay and anecdotes, nevertheless, a number of studies have shown homeopathic remedies are effective for some conditions. Most doctors write that off to placebo effect ï¿½ the curious but real phenomenon in which a personï¿½s belief that a substance will make him feel better actually does make him feel better. But there may be more to homeopathy than the placebo effect can explain: Some of the studies were performed on animals and in test tubes, yet still showed positive effects. The basic premise isnï¿½t so strange: Homeopathy is based on the idea that "like cures like," that diluted amounts of a poison or other disease-causing substance can relieve the same symptoms that the larger dose causes. That concept resembles the desensitizing therapy used to relieve allergy symptoms, or vaccination, in which we are given a mild case of the disease to put our immune system on guard.But the most confounding homeopathic belief of all is that the weaker the dose, the stronger the bodyï¿½s response. In fact, some of the "most potent" remedies are so diluted that not a single molecule of the original material remains in the solution or tablet. No one can explain how it works ï¿½ or how it could work. One homeopathic theory is that the molecules of the remedy substance leave an energy "memory" as they disappear, somewhat like a shadow, and that the body responds to it.To most scientists, thatï¿½s nonsense. How, they ask, can a substance that diluted possibly have any effect? And skeptics and foes arenï¿½t the only ones baffled."It boggles the mind," agrees Wayne Jonas, MD, a family physician at the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences in Bethesda, Md., who uses homeopathy in his practice.George Guess, MD, a family practitioner in Charlottesville, Va., says: "I donï¿½t have the answer, but I know it works." Dr. Guess, who is president of the American Board of Homeotherapeutics and whose practice is "99 percent" homeopathy, was drawn to the field in part because of what he calls "the pleasant paradox: You can get an effect without a side effect," he says.Corey Weinstein, MD, who practices homeopathy in San Francisco, says "There are a lot of things that we use every day and donï¿½t understand. Homeopathy isnï¿½t magic ï¿½ itï¿½s just a wonderful, natural tool that helps people."===============================================These medical doctors know that it does indeed work, but it can take a long time to unwind our complicated illnesses.There is some excellent research that shows very nicely that the "energy imprint" of the substance is retained in the polar solvent long after it has been diluted out of existance.From one of the leading Physics journal we have the following study: http://www.vhan.nl/documents/Rey.thermoluminescence.pdf Abstract Ultra-high dilutions of lithium chloride and sodium chloride (10 −30 g cm −3 ) have been irradiated by X-rays and gamma-rays at 77 K, then progressively rewarmed to room temperature. During that phase, their thermoluminescence has been studied and it was found that, despite their dilution beyond the Avogadro number, the emitted light was specific of the original salts dissolved initially.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

To be fair I will post a study by homeopaths that show that it failed in a 6 month study of rheumatoid arthritis. Of course many things can explain why it proved no better than placebo.1. the length of time was probably too short to solve something as complicated as RA.2. subjective measurements can be tricky. there was a study on allergies that showed it no better than placebo, but when objective nasal flow rates were used as a measure the study proved highly significant.3.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Homeopathy is a mystery


Definitely belongs in the


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## roger (Mar 26, 2003)

kel:Your choice of words, as usual, leaves something to be desired:


> quote: jrkatz attacked it because boiron paid for it. that is ridiculous. to imply that boiron paid off dozens of researchers and statisticians all over europe for several years in a row is beyond absurd. they put up the money and had no further involvement whatsoever.


It's too bad that any comment that does not support your theories is labelled an _attack_ .I was merely pointing out that the study was sponsored by a company that has a financial stake in the outcome. Companies that sell things are generally not formed and built on altruistic principles. Boiron sponsored the study expecting positive results so they could sell more product. The recievers of those funds were well aware of Boirons wishes and probably tried very hard to please their sponsor and secure future funding. This causes serious concerns in objectivity of both Boiron and the researchers.To think otherwise is folly.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: It's too bad that any comment that does not support your theories is labelled an attack .


That's because i am correct.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

rog,someone has to put up the funds for these studies. big pharm isn't going to do it. question: do you understand the nature of the study that you are criticizing? it was blinded to the nth degree. it involved at least 5 countries in europe at major universities.the fact is that ultra-dilute solutions are BIOACTIVE. i am not sure if this can help every IBSer who suffers, but it cured me. i am free of a dreadful 20 year --- every day --- curse.the evidence is plentiful. if it was anything else people would sit up and take notice but because it is homeopathy it is ignored.it all boils down to the fact that it is considered....I-M-P-L-A-U-S-I-B-L-Eimplausibility is the main reason it is being dismissed, and of course a smattering of negative outcome studies.I will soon be posting some of these negative studies to show that i am not being one sided.


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## roger (Mar 26, 2003)

> quote: someone has to put up the funds for these studies. big pharm isn't going to do it.


You don't consider Boiron to be Big Pharma? How is it different than any other drug company except for its homeopathic slant?From Big Pharma, Bad Science


> quote: The actual authors of scientific studies in medical journals are often bought and paid for by private drug companies with a stake in the scientific results. While the NEJM and some other journals disclose these conflicts, others do not. Unknown to many readers is the fact that the data being discussed was often collected and analyzed by the maker of the drug involved in the test. An independent 1996 study found that 98 percent of scientific papers based on research sponsored by corporations promoted the effectiveness of a company's drug. By comparison, 79 percent of independent studies found that a new drug was effective. This corruption reaches from the doctors prescribing a drug to government review boards to university research centers.


Garbage science is garbage science regardless of who is sponsoring or packaging it.


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