# Aspirin helps



## 21207 (Sep 16, 2005)

Hi I have had IBS -d for twenty years, obviously had all the tests and nothing seems to help. I recently took dispirin for another condition , something I never do, and I noticed that my IBS improved. I have spent a few weeks monitoring my condition and have found that taking enterically coated dispirin a few times a day has reduced my ibs by 60%. There are still foods that trigger it but the dispirin allows me to recover much faster.I have performed some research and found out that excessive bicarbonate production in the colon can lead to diarrhea and aspirin reduces the amount of bicarbonate - this is why it can cause ulcers in some.It seems as though my d is bicarbonate related - something I had tried to discuss with my gastroenterologist before but without luck. Looking further into the mechanism , I noticed that Aspirin reduces Prosaglandins in the colon and by effect reduces the bicarbonate production. This now seems to make sense that my condition could be related to excessive prostaglandin formation so I am also investigating the use of Omega three suppliments to see if this also helps.I was wondering if any body else had been down this path?cheerskevin


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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

That's great you're doing better Kevine, after 20 yrs! Although you've stumped me! NSAIDs are a known cause of intestinal inflammation & hyperpermeability if taken regularly for long time periods...They're a suspected cause of some IBD cases and like in Spasman's case, IBS...Ie,"One result of the therapeutic destruction of the helpful bacteria along with the harmful(from antibiotics), is that the potentially pathogenic bacteria flourish and, by doing so, can directly cause inflammation of the gut wall. Another class of drugs suspected of causing gut inflammation is the ironically titled "anti-inflammatories", NSAIDs, or non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs. Used in cases of chronic back pain, osteo and rheumatoid arthritis, for migraine, gout, dysmenorrhoea and in premenstrual syndrome, these drugs are fast becoming ubiquitous pain-relievers. Unfortunately, many NSAIDs are non-prescription drugs freely available over the counter, and as well as aspirin, they have recently been joined by the more powerful and heavily advertised ibuprofen-based products. Irritation of the stomach and/or the intestine is a standard effect of NSAIDs - while relieving the symptoms of inflammation elsewhere in the body, they directly contribute to leaky gut syndrome as *they interfere with prostaglandin production, so affecting the gastrointestinal mucus and leading to acid and enzymatic attacks on the gut wall."*http://www.afpafitness.com/articles/leakgut3.htmJust keep it in mind...The psyllium and the probiotics I'm tkaing are known to reduce inflammation & seem to be working good as well--like 100% now...as long as I don't eat too much sugar at one time anyways...& even then, it just means I go solid 2 or 3 times per day instead of once...Diff strokes, right??







Talissa


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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

You may want to consider a probiotic mix containing l acidophilus though while taking the aspirin to help protect from more inflammation~~Digestion. 2004 *Lactobacillus acidophilus protects tight junctions from aspirin damage in HT-29 cells*"...CONCLUSIONS: This pilot study shows, for the first time, the protective effect of LaLB with its spent culture supernatant on tight junctions from ASA damage. These results suggest that probiotics could play a role in the prevention of ASA-induced alterations of intestinal permeability."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum


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## 21207 (Sep 16, 2005)

Hi TalissaAspirin causes inflamation by reducing prostaglandin production and therby reducing bicarbonate allowing acid to attack the gut wall. But if my problem is excessive prostaglanding / bicarbonate production then I should have no problem as it will normalise my system rather than open it to attack. Time will tell.cheerskevin


> quote:Originally posted by Talissa:That's great you're doing better Kevine, after 20 yrs! Although you've stumped me! NSAIDs are a known cause of intestinal inflammation & hyperpermeability if taken regularly for long time periods...They're a suspected cause of some IBD cases and like in Spasman's case, IBS...Ie,"One result of the therapeutic destruction of the helpful bacteria along with the harmful(from antibiotics), is that the potentially pathogenic bacteria flourish and, by doing so, can directly cause inflammation of the gut wall. Another class of drugs suspected of causing gut inflammation is the ironically titled "anti-inflammatories", NSAIDs, or non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs. Used in cases of chronic back pain, osteo and rheumatoid arthritis, for migraine, gout, dysmenorrhoea and in premenstrual syndrome, these drugs are fast becoming ubiquitous pain-relievers. Unfortunately, many NSAIDs are non-prescription drugs freely available over the counter, and as well as aspirin, they have recently been joined by the more powerful and heavily advertised ibuprofen-based products. Irritation of the stomach and/or the intestine is a standard effect of NSAIDs - while relieving the symptoms of inflammation elsewhere in the body, they directly contribute to leaky gut syndrome as *they interfere with prostaglandin production, so affecting the gastrointestinal mucus and leading to acid and enzymatic attacks on the gut wall."*http://www.afpafitness.com/articles/leakgut3.htmJust keep it in mind...The psyllium and the probiotics I'm tkaing are known to reduce inflammation & seem to be working good as well--like 100% now...as long as I don't eat too much sugar at one time anyways...& even then, it just means I go solid 2 or 3 times per day instead of once...Diff strokes, right??
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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

Hey Kevine,Thanks for a new avenue of exploration...I've spent the past 2 hours or so wrapping my brain around prostaglandins!







I've learned that indeed, with IBS, there is increased proinflammatory prostaglandins(but not all prostaglandins are proinflammatory).At first, I was even tempted to try out low dose buffered aspirin for a couple of weeks(would love to get off the fiber...), but then I read the poss side-effects. I always take them seriously since getting burned by antibiotics.Anyways, this is what I've gleaned(let me know what you think, if you feel like it)--Aspirin reduces all prostaglandin production, including PGE1 which is anti-inflammatory as well as proinflammatory PGE2. So in my mind, it'd be better to take something which only reduced PGE2, but not PGE1.This is exactly what IBSACOL claims to do. I may have to try that again--I didn't give it much of a chance the first go-round.It's also accomplished by supplementing l-histidine. And the l-histidine is enhanced when taken with GLA fatty acids(like in ibsacol). This makes sense since PG's are derived from fatty acids...Ie, corn oil produces proinflammatory PGE2, while borage oil produces anti-inflammatory PGE1.All very interesting to me(ya think??







) Again, thanks for the new direction. Hope your good experience continues--keep us updated!Tal


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## 21207 (Sep 16, 2005)

Hi TalissaThe discussion about good and bad prostaglandins is interesting. The cox-1 prostaglandins are the normal stomach / colon ones that cause the bicarbonate production (to protect the lining) while the cox-2 ones are a result of inflamation. There is a lot of research to find drugs that reduce cox-2 while not impacting cox-1. However, it may be that in this type of ibs that the cox-1 is the problem and is causing an over secretion of bicarbonate.Bicarbonate is well documeted as causing diarrhea.Prior to researching this, I had repeatedly told my gastroenterologist and doctors that my stool felt like it contained an irritant that felt acid. The gastroeneterologist hinted that it was unlikly to be acid so to ague the point I went and purchased pH paper. I tested my stool only to find out that it was repeatedly over pH 9 - highly alkaline. This indicated either excessive ammonia or excessive bicarbonate. In retrospect this may turn out to be a bicarbonate issue.This treatment may therefore only work if somebody has bicarbonate based d.Anyway, its keeping me busy researching ...cheerskevin


> quote:Originally posted by Talissa:Hey Kevine,Thanks for a new avenue of exploration...I've spent the past 2 hours or so wrapping my brain around prostaglandins!
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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

I get it. Overproduction of PGE1 & overproduction of PGE2--diff but both BOTH can cause D by diff modes of action.I only found this type of info while looking into the PG's~It is concluded that the inflammatory mediator PGE2 can act as an excitatory neuromodulator of gastrointestinal motility These results indicated that both nitric oxide and PGE2 were involved in the diarrhea activity in LPS-treated miceIt can be considered that the chronic diarrheal symptoms appear as a consequence of the gastrointestinal injury characterized by significant increase in PGE2 accompanied by impaired water absorption.Many more like this...PGE2 causes excess mucin, enteropooling, etc. Trying to keep it simple in my mind. Excess PGE2 bad, PGE1 good. This is very complex though, I can see. Now I'll have to look up the bicarbonate angle. Although I am considering toying with a gram of l-histidine daily with ibsacol & vit C~~IeInhibition of Prostaglandin E2-induced Chloride Secretion  (by l-histidine)


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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

K,Since you are interested in this, (thanks to you) I found the most fascinating article you might like. It's centered on autism treatment, but since "The most frequent gastrointestinal complaints were chronic diarrhea, gaseousness, and abdominal discomfort and distension" & it discusses many many topics including PGE2 & l-histidine & the seemingly contradictory histamine...http://www.vaccinationnews.com/DailyNews/A...deManageAut.htm


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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

K, You don't "know" me, but I'm always open to new possible causes for this IBS curse...So, when I ask this, I'm not doubting you nor trying to start a debate--do you have any research supporting that bicarbonate is well documeted as causing diarrhea?All I can find is research supporting the INTAKE of bicarbonate to help replenish _its loss due to diarrhea_...to help protect ag acidosis.Anything you can throw my way would be appreciated,Talps...just for full disclosure, I've been researching the cytokines like IL12(inflammatory) and IL10(antiinflammatory), so this seems to be along similar lines. I'm using probiotics to try to modulate the cytokines. So far w/ this subject you raise, I'm coming to opp conclusions as you. I'd want to incr PGE! & PGE3 and decr proinflammatory PGE2. My uneducaated guess as to why aspirin is helping you is that its lowering all prostaglandin, so you're benefitting somewhat from the decr in PGE2 for now, but not fully because you're losing PGE1 & 3 as well. Over time, you're opening yourself up to risks of heartburn, atherosclorosis, and ulcers if you continue on the drugs....Here's some articles on how EFA's like in fish oils help decr PGE2 and thus inflammatory conditions~~http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C155464.htmlhttp://www.mrc.ac.za/mrcnews/des2002/goodfats.htmhttp://www.naturalproductsinsider.com/arti...flammation.html


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## legbuh (Jan 9, 2005)

Aspirin is an anti-inflammatory...A while back I did 1/2 immodium and 1 81mg aspirin a day. It helped. I cut back, and a few weeks later it hit again.. until now I only took immodium as needed, but I am back on the 1/2 immodium and 81mg aspirin a day and honestly, it's a huge improvement.I also started taking benefiber. That is helping as well.My problem is I get feeling really good for a while, then I quite my regime... I've said it before... I think aspirin and alcohol are the best for my IBS...







Something is causing inflammation.. these things reduce inflammation and remove water (dehydrate).. and it works.. for me.


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## 21207 (Sep 16, 2005)

Hi TalissaI did find a few articles on some medical sites and now for the life of me cant find them again - I will keep looking.In the mean time, I have been gathering a few interesting bits of information:- some doctors advocate that smoking helps some ibs-d , guess what - nicotine reduces bicarbonate secretion.- some antidepressants help ibs-d, guess what the - 5-ht receptor is involved with bicarbonate secretion.- there is another drug that sounds promising for ibs-d - "clonidine" - guess what it reduces bicarbonate secretion-asprint has removed 80% of my symptoms - guess what it reduces bicarbonate secretion.Interesting dont you think ? Also, I have noticed that my other symptoms have dropped - bloating, cramps etc and have found out the a high colon pH is not a friendly environment for the good gut bacteria - they enjoy neutral to slighty acid environment so they dont do so well in highly alkaline environment.the funny thing is there is a load of research to solve reduced bicarbonate issue - i.el. ulceration but there does not seem to be much of an investigation into the scenario that there could be a load of people whose problem is excessive bicarbonate secretion. Any biological process can swing both ways.cheerskevin


> quote:Originally posted by Talissa:K, You don't "know" me, but I'm always open to new possible causes for this IBS curse...So, when I ask this, I'm not doubting you nor trying to start a debate--do you have any research supporting that bicarbonate is well documeted as causing diarrhea?All I can find is research supporting the INTAKE of bicarbonate to help replenish _its loss due to diarrhea_...to help protect ag acidosis.Anything you can throw my way would be appreciated,Talps...just for full disclosure, I've been researching the cytokines like IL12(inflammatory) and IL10(antiinflammatory), so this seems to be along similar lines. I'm using probiotics to try to modulate the cytokines. So far w/ this subject you raise, I'm coming to opp conclusions as you. I'd want to incr PGE! & PGE3 and decr proinflammatory PGE2. My uneducaated guess as to why aspirin is helping you is that its lowering all prostaglandin, so you're benefitting somewhat from the decr in PGE2 for now, but not fully because you're losing PGE1 & 3 as well. Over time, you're opening yourself up to risks of heartburn, atherosclorosis, and ulcers if you continue on the drugs....Here's some articles on how EFA's like in fish oils help decr PGE2 and thus inflammatory conditions~~http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C155464.htmlhttp://www.mrc.ac.za/mrcnews/des2002/goodfats.htmhttp://www.naturalproductsinsider.com/arti...flammation.html


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## 21207 (Sep 16, 2005)

Hi legbuhHuess what - alcohol aslo reduces bicarbonate production.cheerskevin


> quote:Originally posted by legbuh:Aspirin is an anti-inflammatory...A while back I did 1/2 immodium and 1 81mg aspirin a day. It helped. I cut back, and a few weeks later it hit again.. until now I only took immodium as needed, but I am back on the 1/2 immodium and 81mg aspirin a day and honestly, it's a huge improvement.I also started taking benefiber. That is helping as well.My problem is I get feeling really good for a while, then I quite my regime... I've said it before... I think aspirin and alcohol are the best for my IBS...
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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

LOL...so we should start popping aspirin, smoking & drinking. OKLegbuh--this whole conversation has been about lowering the inflammation. This can help with symptoms. Inflammation is the problem.It's the only thing agreed upon.Alcohol is extremely inflammatory.This is why it would be better to find a sfer Healthier way to deal with inflammation~~http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/pain-medications/PN00058*NSAIDs: How to avoid side effects*(tal: besides not taking them)"A couple of aspirin for a headache. Ibuprofen to relieve the stiffness in your hands. A naproxen to ease a backache. You take the pills regularly, perhaps even daily, without even thinking about it. But nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) aren't harmless. They can give you stomach ulcers, make you bruise more easily, and even harm your liver and kidneys.Popular medicationsNSAIDs reduce swelling and inflammation and relieve pain and fever. These drugs work by inhibiting an enzyme called cyclooxygenase (COX). This enzyme is responsible for your body's production of prostaglandins, hormone-like substances involved in inflammation and pain.NSAIDs reduce swelling and inflammation and relieve pain and fever. These drugs work by inhibiting an enzyme called cyclooxygenase (COX). This enzyme is responsible for your body's production of prostaglandins, hormone-like substances involved in inflammation and pain.Many drugs in this class require a prescription, but some lower-dose NSAIDs are available over-the-counter. Nonprescription NSAIDs include:Aspirin Ibuprofen (Advil, Motrin IB, others) Naproxen (Aleve, Anaprox, others) Ketoprofen (Oruvail, others) MORE ON THIS TOPICAnti-inflammatory Drugs, Nonsteroidal (Systemic) *Gastrointestinal side effects*NSAIDs can cause stomach ulcers and related conditions because â€" *in addition to suppressing the prostaglandins associated with inflammation and pain â€" they decrease production of a prostaglandin that protects your stomach lining. * This allows gastric acid to erode the lining and cause bleeding and ulcers. A type of bacteria called Helicobacter pylori causes almost two-thirds of all ulcers. Most other ulcers are caused by NSAIDs..."Mark's provex would be a much better alternative for thinning the blood(very helpful) and lowering inflammation.I'm taking probiotics that lower inflammation.I'm taking psyllium which lowers inflammation.I've got bromelain on its way to take to lower inflammation...There are safer alternatives. Much safer. And you're not lowering ALL prostaglandin production with the safer alternatives...its crazy to do that IMO.But its your body, so I'll just leave it at that...I AM glad you're feeling better. I just hope you enjoy it before the ulcers come along...seriously.Talissa


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## 21207 (Sep 16, 2005)

Hi TalissaThe interesting thing is that I had a full upper and lower GI investigation and there was no sign of inflamation. thus the diagnosis of IBS.I wonder how much aspirin causes a problem and over what time. Many people take half an aspirin daily for heart/ blood issues for years at a time.My dose is 2 by 100mg coated aspirin which is two thirds of a standard aspirin.cheerskevin


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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

Hey Kevine,Good points/Qs...the inflammation found in IBS is subclinical, macroscopic. It can only be seen visually if tissue is biopsied and looked at through a microscope. It can also be missed. Samples need to be taken along various key points along the colon...My colonoscopy was clear as well.That's why having your fecal calprotectin level(read abt in medscape) tested is a nice, non-invasive alternative. I had a stool sample test done by great smokies. IBS inflammation is detected with a calprotectin level of 12-50. IBD is any level higher than 50.My level, in the fall of 04, was 47. Very close to IBD...but then I'm postinfectious IBS, so it's not that surprising...Re: aspirin dose. Who knows, maybe you are safe long term taking such a low dose. Just don't drink alcohol while taking aspirin!!And it doesn't mention here that side effects may be dose related, like it doesn't say you're safe from these side effects if taking low dose..."What are the possible side effects of aspirin? â€¢ If you experience any of the following serious side effects, stop taking aspirin and seek medical attention or call your doctor immediately: Â· an allergic reaction (difficulty breathing; closing of your throat; swelling of your lips, tongue, or face; or hives); Â· black, bloody, or tarry stools; Â· nausea, vomiting, or abdominal pain; Â· uncontrolled fever; Â· blood in your urine or vomit; Â· decreased hearing or ringing in the ears; Â· seizures; or Â· dizziness, confusion, or hallucinations. â€¢ If you experience any of the following less serious side effects, notify your doctor: Â· heartburn or indigestion, Â· faint ringing in the ears, Â· drowsiness, or Â· headache. â€¢ Side effects other than those listed here may also occur. Talk to your doctor about any side effect that seems unusual or that is especially bothersome. What other drugs will affect aspirin? â€¢ Do not take aspirin without first talking to your doctor if you are taking any of the following medicines: Â· an anticoagulant such as warfarin (Coumadin), heparin, enoxaparin (Lovenox), dalteparin (Fragmin), danaparoid (Orgaran), ardeparin (Normiflo), or tinzaparin (Innohep); Â· a nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID) such as ibuprofen (Motrin, Advil, Nuprin, others), ketoprofen (Orudis, Orudis KT, Oruvail), naproxen (Naprosyn, Anaprox, Aleve), diclofenac (Voltaren, Cataflam), nabumetone (Relafen), oxaprozin (Daypro), piroxicam (Feldene), etodolac (Lodine), fenoprofen (Nalfon), flurbiprofen (Ansaid), indomethacin (Indocin), ketorolac (Toradol), sulindac (Clinoril), or tolmetin (Tolectin); or Â· another salicylate such as aspirin (Acuprin, Ecotrin, Ascriptin, Bayer, others); choline salicylate and/or magnesium salicylate (Magan, Doan's, Bayer Select Backache Pain Formula, Mobidin, Arthropan, Trilisate, Tricosal), or salsalate (Disalcid). â€¢ You may not be able to take aspirin, or you may require a dosage adjustment or special monitoring if you are taking any of the medicines listed above. â€¢ If you have diabetes, moderate to large doses of aspirin may produce false urine glucose test results. â€¢ Many drugs, including those not listed here, can interact with aspirin, resulting in side effects and/or decreased effectiveness of the medications. Do not take any other prescription or over-the-counter medicines or herbal products without first talking to your doctor during treatment with aspirin. "http://www.drugs.com/aspirin.htmlhere's more info on interactions w/ other drugs, for anyone out there reading this who may be taking them & is interested in aspirin~DRUG INTERACTIONSAnticoagulants: See WARNINGS section. Hypoglycemic Agents: See WARNINGS section. Uricosuric Agents: Aspirin may decrease the effects of probenecid, sulfinpyrazone, and phenylbutazone. Spironolactone: See PRECAUTIONS section. Alcohol: Has a synergistic effect with aspirin in causing gastrointestinal bleeding. Corticosteroids: Concomitant administration with aspirin may increase the risk of gastrointestinal ulceration and may reduce serum salicylate levels. Pyrazolone Derivatives (phenylbutazone, oxyphenbutazone, and possibly dipyrone): Concomitant administration with aspirin may increase the risk of gastrointestinal ulceration. Nonsteroidal Antiinflammatory Agents: Aspirin is contraindicated in patients who are hypersensitive to nonsteroidal antiinflammatory agents. Urinary Alkalinizers: Decrease aspirin effectiveness by increasing the rate of salicylate renal excretion. Phenobarbital: Decreases aspirin effectiveness by enzyme induction. Phenytoin: Serum phenytoin levels may be increased by aspirin. Propranolol: May decrease aspirin's antiinflammatory action by competing for the same receptors. Antacids: Enteric Coated Aspirin should not be given concurrently with antacids, since an increase in the pH of the stomach may effect the enteric coating of the tablets. http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/asa_ad.htm


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## legbuh (Jan 9, 2005)

Keep in mind when companies sell drugs they must report each and every side affect that may have occured during a trial, or during use. Whether or not it was the drug that caused it.A great case is Wellbutrin for me. I got joint pain and it caused panic attacks. My doctor said "those aren't side affects, you probably have the flu.." I told him to reasearch a little further and he's find them in the "rare" section. lol...Everything is relative. Side affects may or may not occur. If they do, it's usually pretty obvious. I'd rather take an aspirin a day than some of the other drugs out there for cholesterol or HBP or anything else that always seem to destroy your liver and kidneys.Good to see that someone else here is thinking outside the box and doing research... the bicarbonate thing is cool. I know aspirin works for me (and alcohol), I just wasn't exactly sure why, but thought inflamation may be part of it.Once an IBS doc brings it up, it will be more widely accepted. But, they probably won't because it can't be something simple.


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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

This bicarbonate thing _is_ cool. But is it real? I'd really like to see some research. Anything at all...I like out of the box thinking too, that's usually the best kind, as long as its grounded in some kind of factual reality. Found something re: low dose aspirin~American Journal of Managed Care, Dec 2002*Gastrointestinal Safety of Low-Dose Aspirin*"...The regular use of even short-term, low-dose aspirin therapy can result in upper GI irritation and may predispose patients to GI hemorrhage.*The microscopic effects of aspirin on gastric mucosa are evident within minutes of oral ingestion, even with low-dose aspirin therapy.* Characteristic endoscopic features of recent aspirin use include a constellation of linear hemorrhages and erosions distributed through out the antrum of the stomach..." http://www.ajmc.com/files/articlefiles/A48...erS701_S708.pdf


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## legbuh (Jan 9, 2005)

I'd like to know who funded that research. My bet is its one of the drug companies that makes a drug that "does what aspirin does" for those with heart issues. I've seen a couple commercials for them now.Now, the question is, would you rather have a chance of GI irritation, or one of the side affects listed by one of those other medications which always seem to include liver disease, kidney pain, constipation, diareah, etc.. etc..


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## 23392 (Jan 31, 2006)

There's always enteric coated aspirin. I'd like to see some studies on whether it actually makes it out of the stomach without causing irritation. [It claims to]


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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

Hey AO, Good Q. I'm sure this is all a conspiracy ag Bayer et al by competing big pharma, but here are a few studies~CONCLUSIONS: Low-dose aspirin increases by twofold the risk of UGIC in the general population and its coating does not modify the effect. CONCLUSIONS: Use of low-dose aspirin was associated with an increased risk of upper gastrointestinal bleeding, with still higher risks when combined with other nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs. Enteric coating did not seem to reduce the risk. CONCLUSION: Administration of low-dose aspirin, either plain or enteric-coated, induces endoscopic gastro-duodenal mucosal lesions in a large majority of patients. The frequency of damage decreased after 8 weeks of therapy.CONCLUSION: The findings of the present study do not support the notion that enteric-coated low-dose aspirin reduces the risk of gastrointestinal complications and is safer than buffered low-dose aspirin products.


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## 21207 (Sep 16, 2005)

Hi TalissaI have also investogated Aspiring and there are loads of medical references stating that 100mg to 200 mg per day is well tolerated for years at a time. There are several hundreds of thousand people on daily aspirin doses and only a limited number seem to experience GI tract issues. Also, rememeber that if there really is something in this bicarbonate issue and it is excessive secretion causing the issues then the aspirin will normalise rather than take it below normal - which is the cause of GI irritation. I am into my second week of no ibs-d and I am frankly stunned after twenty years of hell. I am also looking into the Calcium carbonate remedy and think this may also be a similar mechanism. Many people are saying the calcium works by absorbing the liquid but there is far too little caclium to really make a difference on that basis so there must be another mechanism involved.What I am really nervous about now is maybe this will stop working...cheers kevin


> quote:Originally posted by Talissa:This bicarbonate thing _is_ cool. But is it real? I'd really like to see some research. Anything at all...I like out of the box thinking too, that's usually the best kind, as long as its grounded in some kind of factual reality. Found something re: low dose aspirin~American Journal of Managed Care, Dec 2002*Gastrointestinal Safety of Low-Dose Aspirin*"...The regular use of even short-term, low-dose aspirin therapy can result in upper GI irritation and may predispose patients to GI hemorrhage.*The microscopic effects of aspirin on gastric mucosa are evident within minutes of oral ingestion, even with low-dose aspirin therapy.* Characteristic endoscopic features of recent aspirin use include a constellation of linear hemorrhages and erosions distributed through out the antrum of the stomach..." http://www.ajmc.com/files/articlefiles/A48...erS701_S708.pdf


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## 21207 (Sep 16, 2005)

Hi Talissa I have something interesting regarding Calcium. It did not seem logical that a single calcium tablet could absorb any amount of liquid that would make a difference so I tried to find something else that could cause the effect. Research shows that calcium stimulates acid secretion in the stomach. Guess what - an increase in acid would neutralise more bicarbonate leading to the same effect as aspirin. It may be coincidence but a lot of roads are leading to a central point.cheerskevin


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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

Kevine, I really really don't want to have to tell you this, but calcium actually DECREASES acid production in the stomach.I can get countless references to this if you'd like, but here's an easy quick one--Tums, an ANTacid, has calcium in it because it helps decrease acid production in the stomach.And calcium works by binding with excess bile acid salts. So if this is the cause of the D, like after having the gall bladder removed, having less bile leads to better water resorption.


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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

I just want to clarify the above post. I was in a rush! earlier to get to my yoga class & then tennis...Calcium carbonate(which works for -some- with D) and other inorganic calciums neutralize(not reduce) stomach acid to varying degrees. That's why calcium carbonate works for some with D. If it got absorbed in the upper small intestine(duodenum) like its supposed to for the body to use, it wouldn't work.Calcium carbonate works(for some)based on it not getting broken down & absorbed--then it can go on to the lower small intestine and colon & bind with those bile salts. This is how questran works for D.I take calcium citrate because it doesn't need stomach acid to break down, and it gets absorbed easily...I also wanted to add that regardless of how or why you've improved, I'm soooo happy for you that you're doing so well. I can't imagine dealing with the D for so long.I live the life of a normal too, but with natural supps. (If we were all the same, it'd be a pretty boring world!!!)







Tal


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## 21207 (Sep 16, 2005)

Hi Talissa I may be trying to fit the world to my hypothesis







but try reading up on acid rebound caused by calcium carbonate. Also read up on how the calcium and protein in mil causes excess acid production after an initial decrease.cheerskevin


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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

K,





















Acid rebound. OK, you got me & now you're treading on controversial waters. One that I don't care to get involved in since taking calcium carbonate for D is so popular here...Just something to think about, eating red meat also increases acid secretion & its never helped alleviate my D...I sometimes take betaine HC1(stomach acid supp) & its never helped my D....What you choose to believe is what you choose to believe.







Tal


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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

Hi Auburn,LOL--I truly hope the people paying for the "IBSACOL" banner at the top of this page don't see your post







They're both dietary supplements, not drugs. Ibsacol is fatty acid esters(like in antiinflammatory fish oils) & l-histidine is an amino acid(aa's make up protein).L-histidine would be one of those "thinking outside of the box" possible solutions. And I actually read an "ibs tale"(of Jan) where she was taking l-histidine at 250 mg/day and it took care of the D~http://www.ibstales.com/women_and_diarrhea_11.htmIf it works, it'd be alot cheaper than, um, other products marketed for IBS.Welcome, by the way! T-


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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

Hey Auburn,Well I guess both of us could be in trouble now w/ the makers of Ibsacol







...I've learned that you can't assume peeps know what one's talking about--hence, my saying fatty acid esters like in fish oil....what I still need to work on is being extremely clear in my meaning(like Kathleen is--she's very good at this!!). So, for the sake of clarity, while ibsacol is in the same "fatty acid" classification, they aren't the -same- as fish oils...Re: the pain you experience(which is a bummer)...have you tried probiotics? There are several that are proven in multiple studies to greatly reduce the pain of bloating anyways. Ie-- L. Reuteri, L. Plantarum. Will list the studies if you'd like.I'd take more than the bottle recommends & give them at least a month. Take before bed and first thing in the am...you never know.Hope it gets better, Tal


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## 23392 (Jan 31, 2006)

> quote:Re: the pain you experience(which is a bummer)...have you tried probiotics? There are several that are proven in multiple studies to greatly reduce the pain of bloating anyways. Ie-- L. Reuteri, L. Plantarum. Will list the studies if you'd like.


Hey, Talissa, I'd like to see 'em [unless they're already in another post where you answered me ]!


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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

AO, I posted them in the Probiotics Forum for you~http://ibsgroup.org/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=500...08922#208108922Btw, I've been reading some of your other posts around here & am *impressed* with your knowledge on ctn subjects!







T-


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## 21207 (Sep 16, 2005)

Hi TalissaI have been performing further research to try to connect Calcium carbonate consumption to the use of aspirin as a mechansim for decreasing bicarbonate.The research shows that Calcium carbonate disociates in the stomach but the calcium is poorly absorbed and proceeds into the intestine. Further down the intestine the free calcium binds with bicarbonate ions to form a precipitate of calcium BIcarbonate.Hence excess calcium consumption - especially one that is not readily absorbed in the stomach results in the neutralisation of bicarbonate.Do you think this gives support to the possibility that a certain type of ibs is caused by excess bicarbonate?cheerskevin


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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

> quoteo you think this gives support to the possibility that a certain type of ibs is caused by excess bicarbonate?


If what you say is true, that further down the intestine the free calcium binds with bicarbonate, changing its chemical structure, then I suppose that could be a contributing factor...._If_ excess bicarbonate is a cause of diarrhea to begin with. Where did you find that info???Inquiring minds...thx







Tal


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## overitnow (Nov 25, 2001)

I am wondering if the gall bladder plays a role in bicarbinate mediation? I am also wondering if calcium bicarbinate is a highly absorbtive molecule. This might explain the success of Linda's Caltrate treatment, whether the bicarbinate is the source of the problem or not.Mark


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## 21207 (Sep 16, 2005)

Hi Talissa This is one fairly good article describing the Calcium absorbtion / interaction.If Calcium bicarbonate is a more stable less irritating molecule then this could support the bicarbinate theory. A good test would be somebody who finds that calcium works - changes to aspirin for a while. If the both work then it supports the theory.cheerskevinhttp://www.acid-base.de/studien5.htm


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## 21207 (Sep 16, 2005)

Hi Mark Not sure on the gall blader as I am still trying to understand the relationship between bile and bicarbonate.I doubt that the effect of Calcium carbonate is based on absorbtion. The calcium carbonate is broken down into the stomach in Calcium chloride and about 60 % of the calcium passes unabsorbed into the intestine. 60% of one 600 mg tablet - stick it in water and see what happens - I would doubt would be able to make any effect on the litres of solution in the intestine. It does make sense though if it binds with something that is causing irritation and hence causes secretory d.


> quote:Originally posted by overitnow:I am wondering if the gall bladder plays a role in bicarbinate mediation? I am also wondering if calcium bicarbinate is a highly absorbtive molecule. This might explain the success of Linda's Caltrate treatment, whether the bicarbinate is the source of the problem or not.Mark


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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

I've read that fairy dust can cause D too.







Small enteric coated motor oil supps work great to control D brought on by fairy dust for me....Just giving you a hard time Kevine...you could actually be onto something new...*Why don't YOU test this out * & switch to Calcium carbonate. At least there'd be less negative side effects.If your theory holds, calcium carb should have the same effect as aspirin--it'd be cool if you tested this out for yourself!!T-


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## 21207 (Sep 16, 2005)

Hi TalissaSince fairies are supposed to be good, I would have assumed that fairy dust would cure ibs-d not cause it







I am going to try it , I am just finding it hard to potentially let go of a normal life. I will give it a try though in the next few weeks.I really do think there is something in this theory but assuming excess bicarbonate is the cause of all the ibs -d symptoms - that doesnt expalin the root cause of why bicarbonate goes out in the first instance.cheers kevin


> quote:Originally posted by Talissa:I've read that fairy dust can cause D too.
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> ...


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## 19445 (May 25, 2005)

I have been using Ibsacol for 18 months. I thank God that I found it on via ibsgroup.org. Its turned my life around. When I stop taking it I notice the difference about a weeek later


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