# 5-HTP vs ZELNORM



## mikeralph (Jan 27, 2003)

My theory is that 5-HTP should be every bit as effective as Zelnorm.I don't have much proof -- just some circumstantial evidence.Since we have multiple serotonin receptors such as 1A, 2A, 3A, 4A, etc. and, therefore, different serotonin acting drugs that "hit" different receptors...... then to me it makes the most sense to just "jack" up the levels of serotonin that exist in the body.5-HTP is perfect for that. 100% of the 5-HTP is shunted into the production of serotonin (provided that enough B6, folic acid, etc is present). Whereas tryptophan is diverted to other uses besides the manufacture of serotonin.Now, of course, too much serotonin can cause problems for some of us. Therefore, it would also be wise to become familiar with acetyl L-tyrosine (dopamine & norepinephrine) and methionine (produces an enzyme that increases adrenalin)The point is....if 5-HTP is as effective or more so than Zelnorm then not only do we save a lot of money but we are giving our body what it truly needs. Our bodies demand tryptophan and 5-HTP not Prozac, Paxil, and Zelnorm. (even though some of these antidepressants have saved countless lives.)And if you are a Male you can't even get Zelnorm -- what a crock of rubbish that is!!!


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## kittenst (Jan 27, 2003)

How does 5-HTP help IBS C? I just went to a website about this and it said that it was for depression and sleep. Zelnorm is supposed to make you also get regulated with your bowel movements. If 5-HTP works for BM's I'll try it because zelnorm was really bad for me. It caused very bad insomnia. The upside was that I did feel better.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

One problem is all the different receptors do different things.Why would stimulating the speed up and slow down recpetors in the gut be helpful.Zelnorm and Lotronex work at two different receptors for serotonin and thus cause different effects.Many compounds in the body are like that. They do very different things at different places and to change what is going on in the body you have to effect the specific receptor that does the specific thing you want. NOT just increase levels of something in the blood stream.Some drugs have gender specificity. That some drugs do not work well for certain genders is why they now have to test drugs in both genders.Some drugs won't work for some genders and right now we don't fully understand why. The best we can do is test both genders to the Phase II level and then only release drugs for the gender(s) they work for.The problem is most drugs on the market were ONLY tested in men so woman have to take them and just hope that it actually works for woman. Because we don't know if it will do us any good, or harm us more than men. Better to have that worked out ahead of time, IMO, which is what we do now.K.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

5-HTP supplements could also be dangerous: http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~lrd/tp5htp.html


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## mikeralph (Jan 27, 2003)

well, what i think it comes down to is that each person must take matters into his/her own hands.i do lots and lots of experimenting with different supplements, treatments, and whatever else i hear about.for me it is 2 steps forward and one step back. but everytime i take a step back it helps me to further understand my problem. everyone is different and what works for one person will not necessarily work for another.since i have become proactive i have experienced extreme improvement in my condition. however, a lot of the improvement has been offset by the previous 10 years of workaholism, worsening of food intolerances, compulsive/extreme exercising, and toxic mold exposure.


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## mikeralph (Jan 27, 2003)

flux...your source is almost 5 years old. and you can find fault with any and every product on the planet. too much water can kill you.


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## mikeralph (Jan 27, 2003)

Why would stimulating the speed up and slow down recpetors in the gut be helpful.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:.your source is almost 5 years old.


It points to a history of contamination in this product. Why should we think anything has changed?I advise anyone to think twice before consuming this product. It's not clear how it would impact IBS and * it could be contaminated.*


> quote:and you can find fault with any and every product on the planet.


This is red herring.


> quote:i think it is all about balance and making sure your body has the raw materials it needs to at least give it a shot at producing the 1000's of peptides and enzymes and various substances that it needs to function.


IBS is not a deficiency disease, though.


> quoteeople who are highly allergic tend to be deficient in several substances including the amino histidine.


Actually, histamine is made from histidine, and allergies are not a deficiency disease.


> quote:is it any wonder that highly allergic people can be so irritable.


Of course not, they are suffering symptoms from the allergen.









> quote:these n-transmitters can be manipulated rather effectively with additional intake of N- Acetyl- L-tyrosine and additional B6 with biopterin (or folic acid).


I wouldn't assume you can necessarily manipulate the levels of neurotransmitters by altering how much a raw ingredient the body consumes. The body largely self-regulates its internal compounds. Besides, it isn't clear that they need manipulating or how they would impact IBS.


> quote:f you are a Male you can't even get Zelnorm


Obtaining it has nothing to do with your gender. Whether or not it works might, though.


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## mikeralph (Jan 27, 2003)

FLUX...you jackal1. there was only ONE case in the entire history of tryptophan production that resulted in a bad batch -- the japanese were responsible --they screwed up.2. the FDA is looking for any and all reasons to cover their asses for perpetuating the biggest fraud on the american public since.... they need to find fault with 5-HTP to help them save face. 3. IBS is a very complex illness. who is to say that deficiency does not exist???????? you? you don't know anything about it. it seems to me that many things might be deficient which can start the free fall. possibly pancreatic enzymes are deficient thereby allowing undigested proteins into the bloodstream via an underdeveloped intestinal tract. from there immune complexes develop. this further upsets the body's balance creating more deficiencies. the cycle continues ad infinitum.4. according to several Doctors (dr erdman, for ex.) has shown that allergic people quickly exhaust their histamine supplies thereby creating an imbalance and a potential need for HISTIDINE supplementation. flux...are you SIMPLE? everything is so black and white for you. it's either black or it's white. your simplicity keeps you from making the easiest inferences.5. it is VERY clear that we need precursor (amino) loading to alter our neurotransmitter levels. are millions of people wasting their money on SSRI's for the hell of it? no they take them because they need to correct some deficiency or some problem with receptor binding, etc.6. concerning Zelnorm the point is that males don't EVEN get a chance to see if it works. it's horse cr** that it needs to be tested separatly in men. this is nothing more than some sick marketing gimmick. they figure if they can create a controversy then it will create a bigger demand. the women will feel lucky and rush out to get it, and the men will feel cheated. so when it finally gets approved for men they will also rush out to get it.FLUX...... i like what Essence (edie) had to say about you....... you are a blowhard, deficient in many areas.


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## honichou (Jun 30, 2002)

I hate to put a knot in your reasoning, but men can get Zelnorm. I know that I can and do, and I am a man.Steven


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## trbell (Nov 1, 2000)

name calling is certainly more effective than disappearing, i guess.tom


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## mikeralph (Jan 27, 2003)

you can get just about anything if you try hard enough. but who wants to add insult to injury by having to pay $100 to $200 a month for it because the insurance won't cover it. also, who wants to engage in a battle with doctor after doctor before finally finding one who will prescribe it.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:1. there was only ONE case in the entire history of tryptophan production that resulted in a bad batch -- the japanese were responsible --they screwed up.


No, there are at *least two separate cases*. It doesn't say, however, what the source was or how extensive the contamination was in the second case.


> quote:2. the FDA is looking for any and all reasons to cover their asses for perpetuating the biggest fraud on the american public since.... they need to find fault with 5-HTP to help them save face.


In other words, the FDA is protecting the public against potentially dangerous products.


> quoteossibly pancreatic enzymes are deficient


Pancreatic enzyme deficiency is *not* present in IBS.


> quote:has shown that allergic people quickly exhaust their histamine supplies thereby creating an imbalance and a potential need for HISTIDINE supplementation


If that were the case, their allergies would go away once histamine was depleted. Simple









> quote:it is VERY clear that we need precursor (amino) loading to alter our neurotransmitter levels.


The body requires several amino acids. These part of a balanced diet.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Histamine is a chemical that does many things in many parts of the body.Having a disease that causes you to have high levels of circulating histamine causes many symptoms in many body systems. Migraines, itching skin, diarrhea, joint problems, sleeping difficulties...I take allergy shots and can sometimes get in a too much over all histamine in the body response from them because my symptoms match the ones from people with this disease almost 100%.Histamine has several receptors.The H2 receptor in the stomach causes cells in the stomach to release acid. Many acid blocker drugs are antihistamines.The H1 receptor is the one that has to do with allegic responses as well as expelling parasites from the body. When histamine lands on these receptros you itch, get diarrhea, sneeze...etc.Histamine has some receptors in the brain (not sure which ones are used for this) where it is a signal for you to be awake. That is why antihistamines that get into the brain put you to sleep.Histamine in the brain (probably the H3 receptor) may have something to do with migraine.Basically when a chemical lands on a receptor it causes a response.Which response depends on which receptor it lands.To get an effect you have to get the right thing to the right receptor, or BLOCK something from the right receptor. Does getting stuff in your blood stream by taking a supplement actually effect how much of serotonin is in any given nerve cell or in the right synapse at the right time, I don't know, but it seems unlikely to me.But you can have your own opinion about how the body works, but some of what you say doesn't seem to match the standard explaination of how a body works, but if you are free to believe what you want to believe.In the GI tract there are two receptors that act like the accelerator pedal and the brake pedal for the GI tract. Stimulating one speeds things up (causes diarrhea when too much) and the other slows things down (causes constipation when too much). Lotronex and Zelnorm effect these receptors.You do know that digestion doesn't "just happen" it is an extremely coordinated effort requiring millions of nerves to sense and direct the muscles of the GI tract. You get the nerves telling the GI tract the wrong things (Like the speed it up is ALWAYS ON) and wrong things happen (you block the ALWAYS ON an then the diarrhea stops).But if you know more than all the researchers and pharmacologists.....go for it.K.


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## honichou (Jun 30, 2002)

My internist was very willing to prescribe it, and my insurance covers it ($40 for a three-month supply)Steven


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## mikeralph (Jan 27, 2003)

Dear Kathleen,the only thing i am trying to do is figure out what might help me with this horrible curse that i have. the medical establishment has been a dreadful experience. i know that you are a Ph.D. and that is good because that means you bring quite a bit of intelligence to the table. by the way i am no half-wit myself -- MBA and retired former businessman (and i am only 16 days older than you). however, the tone of your comments is somewhat condescending. it is not that i "think i know more than the research scientists" but that i know my body much better than some doctor who really doesn't care. therefore, i have no choice but to take matters into my own hands. also, i really doubt that some magic pill is going to solve all of my problems (even though i do rely quite a bit on medication). drugs may be okay but i believe the first step is to control all the factors that are capable of being controlled such as nutrition, eliminating sugar, rotating foods, eating lots of organic green veggies, probiotics, eliminating yeast, moderate exercice, stress reduction, controlling allergen exposure, etc. none of my ideas are original. they all come from doctors and research scientists -- books and abstracts that i have read over the years. a big focus of mine is on AMINO ACID PRECURSOR LOADING. i have read numerous books on the subject and i find it quite fascinating. it shocks me to learn that an educated person like yourself knows so little about the subject. i can not believe that you are unaware that serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, histamine, acetylcholine, etc can be easily manipulated by precursor loading. actually it is a little harder than i make it seem but it can be done. the research and the books are out there. i suggest you read a book by Dr. Eric Braverman called, The Healing Nutrients Within. the book deals extensively with amino acids and it is fascinating. Dr. Braverman runs the Princeton BioBrain Institute -- Princeton as in Ivy League. i have used myself as a guinea pig for the last 2 1/2 years and i have had an overall positive outcome, but i have also caused some serious (but temporary) imbalances. but that is the price i pay for having this horrible condition. i have a choice; i can sit and do nothing or i can TRY SOMETHING and see if it works. i choose to try something -- anything. if it doesn't work -- oh well. i'll just try something else. i have had much success with 5-HTP, glutamine(destroys sugar/alcohol cravings), cysteine & NAC (reduction of brain fog), histidine (extreme reduction in anxiety), arginine (raging erections), tyrosine & phenylalanine (increased alertness -- allowing for a dramatic reduction in my adderall--->amphetamine) concerning HISTIDINE, i am baffled as to why it causes such extreme sedation and relaxation??????? however, all of the doctors who are involved in this line of research clearly states that it does cause that response. i really don't care why all i care about is whether or not it can help me. in fact, taking histidine is actually supposed to help allergy patients. this seems counterintuitive but i believe that it works. i don't know how but i experienced relief after taking it. the problem is that it causes so much relaxation that it strips me of my motivation. also, it is the ultimate cure for insomnia. off the top of my head i believe it works identically to antihistamines. an antihistamine attaches to the "H" receptor and causes drowsiness. well, if one takes free form histidine (after it converts to histamine) -- then the histamine attaches to the same receptor and gives the identical response as the anti-histamine. (just a wild stab/guess from a non-scientist) in the meantime you give your body what it truly needs not some synthetic compound. i have several reasons for going this route (i.e., supplementing with raw materials such as amino acids)1. i have bipolar type II (possibly it is sugar induced because when i eliminate sugar everything settles down)-- and for ten years when i was running my business i was hypomanic, and my entire body was in high gear 24 hours/day -- exhausting and depleting myself until i finally crashed.2. i was a fitness fanatic. i ran 35 miles/week and subjected my body to the extremely brutal art of brazilian jiu jitsu for 5 years. the grappling alone decimated my body.3. i drank booze for 10 years (up until 1994) further depleting my body4. from 1982 till present my digestion has been absolutely horrendous -- the only mineral that tested in the normal range was calcium (that may explain why i am habitually constipated????) (some minerals like selenium were non-detectable-- allergy patients need this mineral!!!!) i really do appreciate you taking the time to add your comments. i have read your story 4 times and i have searched out dozens of your comments because i feel that i have a lot to learn from a person like yourself. i have tremendous respect for the educated person. however, i think it is wrong for you to assume that what i am doing is wrong. by criticizing me you are really just criticizing your fellow colleagues because it is their advice that i am following not my own. more power to the research scientists out there, but it really starts with each person doing all they can on their own as opposed to just popping some pill and expecting everything to go away. once again thank you for taking the time to respond. i don't necessarily agree with you but you really made me think, and question things over again and that is what is important. p.s. my preventative medicine doctor is 100% convinced that i have leaky gut syndrome and is fairly certain that it involves to one extent or another yeast which i was recently treated for with diflucan. now it is a matter of getting the dozens of food intolerances and allergies under control. p.s.s. concerning MSM -- yes that stuff had an absolutely dramatic effect on my condition. i don't know how or why. possibly due to inflammation control of the intestines??????????


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## mikeralph (Jan 27, 2003)

Kathleen, i pulled 3 of my books on amino acids and did some quick research on histidine. by the way, Dr Eric Braverman runs the Princeton BioBrain Institute in New Jersey -- it is a very credible institution -- Ivy League. histidine has several metabolites besides histamine. histamine is an inhibitory neurotransmitter in the brain -- that is why it makes us sleepy. (it doesn't just make me sleepy) it strengthens the soothing alpha waves of the brain reducing the arousing beta waves. it regulates antibodies thereby preventing them from overreacting to common allergens like pollen. it has an antinflammatory effect. it is the only amino to be in short supply in people with rheumatoid arthritis. low levels are almost always found in people who are manic. it is found in very high levels in people who are suicidally depressed (in fact too much can lead to depression). it is reputed to be beneficial for people suffering from allergies.


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## trbell (Nov 1, 2000)

as an MBA and expert in the area you should know that association by name is a common supplement. Putting princeton in the name doesn't mean there's an association with the Ivy leagueCavet Emptor ton


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Please DO NOT POST information that occurs in EMAIL to a public board.You emailed your post to me.I responded in email.Some of that email was quoted here on the public board.I do not wish to argue with you, and based on this I request that you do not email me again.Emails from you will not be replied to because you have demonstrated that you will post email communications to a public board. I do not know if you know this is "bad form" but it is, and I do not appreciate you doing this at all.Good luck trying to find something to make you better, and I to reduce arguements between us I am going to avoid any thread you post to.K


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## Jeffrey Roberts (Apr 15, 1987)

I agree with Kmottus.Mikeralph, it's not good form to post anyone's personal email without their permission. I have edit'ed your responses.Jeff


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## mikeralph (Jan 27, 2003)

sorry


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## mikeralph (Jan 27, 2003)

trbell, you are 100% correct. the closest they ever came to being associated was throughout the '80's when the bio brain institute had an ongoing study with princeton. princenton's csbmb dept was using patients from the bio brain center for mri mapping of brains.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Thanks for taking care of this Jeff.Ju one last comment then I shall never darken any thread that mikeralph ever participates in or starts again.To show that my "belief" that histamine tends to be involved in keeping you awake and antihistamines put you to sleep I post the following references. http://sommeil.univ-lyon1.fr/articles/lin/...r/sommaire.html


> quoteharmacological data also support an arousing role of histamine. Various experiments impairing or blocking the transmission of histamine all increase cortical slow activity and deep slow wave sleep, whereas enhancements of histaminergic activity promote wakefulness


Prog Neurobiol 2001 Apr;63(6):637-72	Life Sci. 2002 Dec 20;72(4-5):409-14.ï¿½ï¿½ The physiology of brain histamine.Brown RE, Stevens DR, Haas HL.Institut fur Neurophysiologie, Heinrich-Heine-Universitat, D-40001, Dusseldorf, Germany. brown###uni-duesseldorf.deHistamine-releasing neurons are located exclusively in the TM of the hypothalamus, from where they project to practically all brain regions, with ventral areas (hypothalamus, basal forebrain, amygdala) receiving a particularly strong innervation. The intrinsic electrophysiological properties of TM neurons (slow spontaneous firing, broad action potentials, deep after hyperpolarisations, etc.) are extremely similar to other aminergic neurons. Their firing rate varies across the sleep-wake cycle, being highest during waking and lowest during rapid-eye movement sleep. In contrast to other aminergic neurons somatodendritic autoreceptors (H3) do not activate an inwardly rectifying potassium channel but instead control firing by inhibiting voltage-dependent calcium channels. Histamine release is enhanced under extreme conditions such as dehydration or hypoglycemia or by a variety of stressors. Histamine activates four types of receptors. H1 receptors are mainly postsynaptically located and are coupled positively to phospholipase C. High densities are found especially in the hypothalamus and other limbic regions. Activation of these receptors causes large depolarisations via blockade of a leak potassium conductance, activation of a non-specific cation channel or activation of a sodium-calcium exchanger. H2 receptors are also mainly postsynaptically located and are coupled positively to adenylyl cyclase. High densities are found in hippocampus, amygdala and basal ganglia. Activation of these receptors also leads to mainly excitatory effects through blockade of calcium-dependent potassium channels and modulation of the hyperpolarisation-activated cation channel. H3 receptors are exclusively presynaptically located and are negatively coupled to adenylyl cyclase. High densities are found in the basal ganglia. These receptors mediated presynaptic inhibition of histamine release and the release of other neurotransmitters, most likely via inhibition of presynaptic calcium channels. Finally, histamine modulates the glutamate NMDA receptor via an action at the polyamine binding site. The central histamine system is involved in many central nervous system functions: arousal; anxiety; activation of the sympathetic nervous system; the stress-related release of hormones from the pituitary and of central aminergic neurotransmitters; antinociception; water retention and suppression of eating. A role for the neuronal histamine system as a danger response system is proposed.Life Sci. 2002 Dec 20;72(4-5):409-14.Roles of histamine in regulation of arousal and cognition: functional neuroimaging of histamine H1 receptors in human brain.Tashiro M, Mochizuki H, Iwabuchi K, Sakurada Y, Itoh M, Watanabe T, Yanai K.Department of Pharmacology, Tohoku University Graduate School of Medicine, 2-1 Seiryo-machi, Aoba-ku, Miyagi, 980-8575, Sendai-shi, Japan. mtashiro###mail.cc.tohoku.ac.jpBrain histamine is involved in a wide range of physiological functions such as regulation of the sleep-wake cycle, arousal, cognition, and memory mainly through interactions with histamine H1 receptors (H1Rs). Neurons producing histamine, histaminergic neurons, are exclusively located in the posterior hypothalamus and transmit histamine to almost all regions of the brain. Histamine H1 antagonists, or antihistamines, often prescribed for treatment of allergic disorders, sometimes induce sleepiness and cognitive deficits. It is understood that the mechanism of such CNS side effects is that antihistamine blocks H1Rs in the brain. The purpose of the present study was to compare the CNS side effects of different antihistamines.Subjective sleepiness was measured using the Stanford Sleepiness Scale (SSS) and psychomotor performance was examined by a tachistoscope testing system in healthy, young, Japanese volunteers (16 males, 20-28 yrs.) before and after oral administration of antihistamines such as fexofenadine (FEX) and cetirizine (CET). Additionally, H1R occupancy by antihistamines was examined by PET with 11C-doxepin in 8 volunteers.The results of SSS and psychomotor tests demonstrated that FEX tended to be less sedative than CET though the difference was not statistically significant. PET measurements revealed that no H1Rs in the cerebral cortex were occupied by FEX while about 30% of H1Rs were occupied by CET. In summary, it was confirmed that histamine and H1Rs are involved in maintaining arousal and cognition in humans, and that the severity of clinical symptoms is correlated to the amount of antihistamine that penetrated into the brain.K.


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## mikeralph (Jan 27, 2003)

i don't dispute any of that....i do believe that histamine is involved in the sleep/wake cycle.nonetheless, when people take the amino acid histidine -------- IT IS NIGHTY NIGHT!!!it causes extreme relaxation, sedation, lethargy. a good way to offset it is by taking a dose of methionine which either competes for uptake or breaks down the histamine via a reduction reaction. i believe it is the latter?????


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

I shouldn''t have looked.You said


> quote: histamine is an inhibitory neurotransmitter in the brain -- that is why it makes us sleepy


This is what I am providing evidence that it is not true.Taking histadine, if it increases histamine in the brain would make you more awake, not sleepy. You seemed to be arguing that taking histadine increases histamine which is why it makes you sleepy. Perhaps I am mistaken in how I read what you wrote.I do not know they mechanism by which it puts you to sleep but more histamine = more awake, less histmamine = more asleep.Now I am not coming back here, so feel free to talk among yourselves.K.


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## mikeralph (Jan 27, 2003)

the proof is in the pudding.... spend the $12 and take it. however, that will prove you wrong so it will never happen.you are probably just like me -- a raging egomaniac. i don't like to be shown up but when it happens i can accept it.i will say one last thing. a lot of us could use a healthy dose of ego-deflation -- especially me.i really, honestly thank you for all the good that you have done for me and everyone else, but there are soooooooo many things that (like the rest of us) you don't have a clue about. and you were misinformed about precursor loading. how does the saying go....... maybe you are to close to the forest to see the trees. or something like that.you don't have a monopoly on all knowledge..... yes you are very intelligent but there are many things that you have not studied yet. also, you can't take your hammer (your very specific education) and make it work for any and all human illness or condition.


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## mikeralph (Jan 27, 2003)

no wait don't go..... i am serious. i really do have a lot to learn from you.don't be stubborn....and i am very serious about that.i do like you.


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## mikeralph (Jan 27, 2003)

i think this is a case where we are both CORRECT.however, since histamine has more than just one mechanism of action could it not be possible that the overall effect causes the soothing alpha waves and deep relaxtion. possibly through some of its metabolites it exerts its effects-- anserine? maybe carnosine? who knows.but it is clear that schizophrenics are classified as being either high histamine or low histamine.the high histamine are suicidally depressed and the low histamine schizo's are paranoid and bouncing off the walls.


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## mikeralph (Jan 27, 2003)

this comment/posting was unfairly edited... i shall see if i can re-construct my answer. (all i did was answer a question that was posed by k in the 3rd comment down)___________Why would stimulating the speed up and slow down of receptors in the gut be helpful? (she asks)___________in other words she thinks that it is foolish to increase serotonin levels because it could lead to diarhea based on the response of the 5HT3 serotonin gut receptor.___________i can attack or answer this question several ways. where do i start. (oh so little time -- to give to such an important question)1. my initial hunch is that zeroing in on the 5HT3 receptor to stop diarhea is nothing more than "monkeying" with something that maybe should not be monkeyed with. (i could be wrong!)maybe it works but it also might be analogous to using elmers glue to plug a hole in the Hoover Dam.2. my 2nd hunch is that the vast majority of people would be much more likely to benefit from increasing their overall serotonin levels -- even if that means the 5HT3 receptor is activated. my hunch is that the additional serotonin that hits the 5HT4 receptor will more than cancel out the effect on the 5HT3 receptor. providing overall relief. (once again i could be wrong!)3. i believe that it is JUST PLAIN WRONG to be "monkeying" and laser beaming in on 1 stinking rotten receptor when the patient in almost every case has multiple symptoms. this begs the question...... do we give every patient multiple designer drugs -- each of which ZEROS in on its own special receptor? i think not. it seems to make more sense to just increase the available supplies of serotonin -- sit back and watch what happens, and from there make any necessary adjustments.


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## trbell (Nov 1, 2000)

your hunches might be helped with a litle reading. i think there is a lot of information in the news forum here as well as in the lotronex and zelnorm forums and the faq. I'm also sure k could give you a bibliography? The whole point of the new meds is specificity because of the side effects of serotonin among other things, I think.tom


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

I don't really want to keep having a conversation with you because of the way it has gone so far.I tend to be a rocks are hard, water is wet, data are sacred and theories are just ephemeral ideas that must bow at the alter of the data and be discarded and reconstructed as new data emerge. So far you seem to be more of a make the data to fit the theories that you like kind of person. There is not necesarily anything wrong with that. Different ways of approaching the world work for different people. But sometimes it makes it hard to have meaninful discussions about things.That makes having anything approaching a civil conversation difficult. We live in very different worlds.I have a comment about your most recent post, but I do not know how much I will contribute to this. To use a metaphor the sky is just very different colors in one another's worlds and I do not see how we can conduct much in the way of a meaningful conversation.One of the reasons for targeting specific receptors is that once again "I feel like a broken record" every chemical the body uses for a signal has multiple effects in all parts of the body. Most often it is only causing problems in one place or the other, not every place in the body for every single function it has. Increasing something in all locations has a tendancy to cause side effects in other locations. The more specifically it targets a problem the lower the chances that it causes some uncomfortable problem somewhere else. Basically one doesn't know what besides the target will get splattered along with the bullseye. Often people with abnormal problems with one receptor in one location in the body are normal with other things that this signal is used for. Not everyone with allergies has raging heartburn. Both are histamine issues. Not everyone with depression has raging diarrhea or constipation, both are serotonin issues.At least for some IBSers there is an abnormal amount of serotonin running around in the blood stream, so doing something to make that even more abnormal may not fix the problem. But why let a nice little bit of data like that get in the way of the grand theory







PubMed is a good resource for hounding out the data, I recommend it. But I do not have the time to fact check what your theory tells you the right answer must be all the time. What I have a hard time following is which pieces of information from you may be data and what is theory. It just makes having discussions with you very hard for me, which is part of the wanting to bow out.If you are right and histadine would increase the amount of histamine in my body, and whether that would put me to sleep or not, I do not need that right now. I've got things under control, but my allergy shots cause me a certain amount of havoc and I really don't need to increase the side effeects I am getting from the histamine I already have too much of at the moment. I am not completely against alternative medicine, I use somethings some of the time when I can find decent research about it. But I have had really bad reactions to some of them. I can't take Echinacea, for instance, because it may actually be doing what they say and boosting the immune system, and mine is too boosted to start with and it makes my allergies and related issues much worse. It may make the cold go away a few days faster, but the increase in asthma symptoms may just kill me one day. I like have a lot of data about what anything does to me when I put it in my body. Much of the alternative med stuff tends to be long on theory of why it should be good for me and very short on data about what side effects it could cause. And I have to watch that very carefully.K.K.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:This is what I am providing evidence that it is not true.


I agree. Many of mikeralph's statements are suspect or outright incorrect.


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## mikeralph (Jan 27, 2003)

flux...you have been dismissed as being not credible especially since you think a lot of this is a game. your idea that once histamine is exhausted then the allergy goes away is so laughable it is actually sad. NO CREDIBILITY!on the histidine/histamine issue i was right on target and i am happy i was able to share that valuable information with you -k.concerning 5-HTP, and the receptors (5ht3, 5ht4)...well, i see nothing wrong with posing these questions. most of the data i have has been collected from my own 6 year experience with ssri's and the like. i would love to try zelnorm. that would be the greatest thing in the world if it solves the majority of my problem. i will try it someday when it becomes easier for men to get it and insurance pays for it.but, in the meantime, i am having some incredibly good fortune with 5-HTP, n-acetyl-l-tyrosine, and cysteine to name a few.prozac, paxil, zoloft, luvox, serzone, wellbutrin (the best), several tricyclics, buspar, effexor and maybe a few others ALL left me with some very unpleasant side effects. however, i also benefited from them.therefore the fact that i am having such success with 5-HTP (with almost zero side effects) is the reason why i came up with my theory.with all the side effects gone and my bowels working better (although it could be due to the diflucan and nystantin treatment) i have to suspect that it is due to an OVERALL INCREASE in my serotonin levels as opposed to just ZEROING on specific receptors.however, i will admit that what is true for me is not true for others, and things could even reverse themselves. time will tell.Tom, i think it is a very relevant topic for discussion, and i am glad i brought it up.k. you are kind of like a scientist who has spent your entire life on a theory and will not give it up. poor analogy. i will try again. you have "professional arrogance" no one is allowed to be more insightful, or knowledgable than you.not that i am, but if i am going to go down due to this IBS/chemical imbalance/allergy thing then i am going to go down fighting.no one is going to stop me from experimenting and theorizing.(by the way, i suspected that echinacea was causing those problems in me that is why i quit taking it. you see, i do have a lot to learn from you.)


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

See...you don't listen.I believe in data.I believe every theory is eventually stabbed in the heart and killed by a nicely investigated bit of data.Data is something that is measurable and everyone who measures it gets to the same thing.Theories should follow data.Theories are only good for asking questions, but not useful for mutilating every fact you come across to fit it.There is nothing wrong with experimenting and theorizing as long as you remember that ALL theories are lies.Trust data. Do not invest in theories. That is the scientific way.At least how they taught me in Grad. School.Seen some really pretty theories killed. Sometimes painfully by data.Data is real. Theories are fairy dust.That histamine and serotonin interact with a variety of receptors causing different results is data. Not theory. Everyone who looks finds the same receptors with the same actions. Every time.Data....not theory.K.


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## mikeralph (Jan 27, 2003)

data schmatathe only thing i care about is results. what works for me i keep, what doesn't work i discard. i try to keep it simple. that is the key -- simplicity.the tens of thousands of researchers and scientists have failed in a way. i know a lot of this may have been brought on myself through workaholism, drinking, sugar, eating wheat for ten years not knowing what it was doing to me, stress, etc.but, there is no drug or medical intervention that has given me any relief. the antispasmodics are not the answer.the only hope is in the field of natural treatments. things like probiotics, 5-htp, (i'll finish this later i'm tired)but all your science has been a big failure (and i am extremely pro-science)


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## trbell (Nov 1, 2000)

the first ibs drugs were approved only a few months ago so we're basically where they were with the first antidepressants 30 years ago. The kinds of stuff you're talking about had their years and didn't work out and modern doctors and researchers discarded the natural distinction years ago. It's fine to be for science but it would help to be for today's science, not what you might have learned in school.tom


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

What I object to is that you think that because X works for you, you feel the need to overturn and dismiss the well known and well understood ways that the body works.Funny. It works for me IS DATA. At least in an experiment of ONE.That isn't theory. What bothers me is that once you find a bit of DATA about you, it appears you need to overturn EVERY SINGLE THING science has ever learned about anything ever.Even when there may be very likely scientific explainations for the things you do not understand.So...good bye.You claim you want to learn from me, but everything in your conversation leads me to believe that this is the LAST thing you want to do.I'm done with this arguement, I reinstate the ban on me replying to things that mikeralph responds to.Have fun exploring the realms of pseudoscience, because that seems to be what you have put your faith in. Just beware, many in that realm make very nice sounding claims that are complete scams. But they have a really nice explaination for why it works.K.


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## mikeralph (Jan 27, 2003)

well, k, i do enjoy conversing with intelligent people because i can learn from them. however, you have this raging ego and this sense of superiority. it is almost as if your entire self-worth is tied up in your very narrow field of expertise.it also seems that others have been duped by your postings which is why so many have put you on a pedestal. in my opinion you have something to offer but it really is not that great.your approach to IBS is an extremely narrow one. it consists of a "laser beam" focus on manipulating and precisely controlling a single receptor or something along those lines. in my opinion that is lame. however, i do believe that kind of approach has something to offer.K.-- what you do at work or what you learned in school DOES NOT really help people with IBS. your entire body of knowledge is all well and good but it is the "ivy tower" kind of stuff that is not all that practical for the hard core reality of the typical IBS sufferer. what works for us is the kind of stuff that you can learn from walking into a Border's book store -- grab 10 books off the shelf -- read them, digest them, analyze them, sort through it, put it into practice, keep what works, discard what doesn't, and then go get some more info and repeat the process.(which begs the question -- why are we all not cured then? the answer. i think part of the answer is that the illness is so complicated, there are so many facets to it, and in some people the condition is so severe that everything we do is still not enough. however, now that i am devoting my attention to this full-time. i am hoping i can make a serious dent in it. and my answer will not come from you and your little "laser beam" approach of zooming in on a single neurotransmitter to elicit a particular response. rather it will be a multifaceted, multimodal approach partly consisting of supplying the body with the elemental, raw materials it needs from which it can start to finally manufacture the correct peptides, proteins, enzymes, hormones, etc. the way it should. i also think that the gut wall needs to be repaired..... and so many other factors.but i find it laughable that you would ridicule my ideas and data when they really aren't my ideas and data. do you really think i would come up with this stuff on my own???????????get real!!!! everything i know comes from lots, and lots of reading and study. so once again you are really just attacking your own colleagues.and i think it is you that does not listen. the reason??? it is because you are comfortable in your own knowledge and ways of thinking. to think outside your little box requires effort, and people are basically lazy they don't want to do the work. and one other thing -- your little take on sugar -- unbelievable!!! ...TOM... YOU REALLY THINK SHE SHOULD GET PAID for this type of advise???? unbelievable. the woman does not have a clue. you, tom, of all people putting her on a pedestal -- what were you thinking?eric i respect. mike nolomotil i respect. k, on the other hand, she really has not shown me jack squat as of yet. and the worst part is that she thinks she is so knowledgeable and valuable. i think i know more about helping the average person's IBS than she. part of the reason is because i have had it for 20 years and all she had was a little tummy ache from some pig germs she picked up. (slight hyperbole -- but it gets my point across)


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## trbell (Nov 1, 2000)

I think it's part of the nature of ibs patients to put people on a pedestal only to shoot them down. certainly there is a better source of books in your town than borders? or a library. borders makes it's money by selling this year's fad. it's a little bit like seaching the net and believing what you read in the headlines that come up as most popular.tom


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## mikeralph (Jan 27, 2003)

or it could just be a quirk in my personality.hey k., i really do like you. just so long as you don't think you have a monopoly.


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## mikeralph (Jan 27, 2003)

well, my good dear friend k. is off to the pig farm for experiments. what am i going to do to amuse myself. hmmmm. flux has been dismissed.well, i guess i just have to wait for her return.i really didn't mean to show that woman up but its that she thought she knew more than my "team".my "team", yes, all those brilliant doctors and scientists whom i have been studying thepast 10 years. i had that woman trapped like a cornered animal and yet she would not surrender or admit her errors. instead she started some mumbo jumbo spiel about data. essentially it came down to a bunch of fast talking and double talk.sometimes i amaze myself.


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## trbell (Nov 1, 2000)

you may think you may have beaten someone but you wouldn't be here attacking people if you had solved your problem with ibs, would you?tom


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## mikeralph (Jan 27, 2003)

the only person who received any grief was feisty, and that was in part because she was even giving you some unjustified grief.i have that moron flux all over me,and then k comes waltzing in to try and "teach" me a thing or 2. give me a break, i am light years ahead of her on certain subjects -- my "team" has the data, the evidence, the proof, we body slammed her.but no tom, i have not solved this dreaded, nasty illness yet. however, if the past is any indication of the future, then whatever i put my mind to -- i will achieve it. (i hope)


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Your "team"??I just had to comment on that....Do these people KNOW who you are.or do you just buy their books??My "team" is brillant scientists who can manage to get a paper through peer review and publish in respected medical journals rather than in books for the lay public. I am an active researcher with a few publications of my own, so I kinda know what the standards for publishing stuff in a book vs the peer review lit. I do like to think of Dr. Drossman as being more personally on my "team" as I actually am a patient of his and his research that gets published in well-respected medical journals pretty much cured my very very severe IBS.But I shouldn't trust anything he has to say, according to you???? I should trust your interpretation of what you read in books, instead. Because you are??Really...Why I don't want to talk to you is because of the way you conduct yourself here. I hope you treat people in real life better. I really do.Although I am concerned about you based on your behavior here, and if you haven't checked in with someone on your "team" personally, I think it might be time for a check up. I am concerned about you based on the medical history you have posted and your little outbursts here. It doesn't seem healthy, to me, as a lay person watching you interact with people here.I find you manipulative, and I do not choose to continue to interact with that.I do not have to associate with people I do not want to, and you have become one of those people.Be wellHave a nice lifeK.


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## mikeralph (Jan 27, 2003)

i have stated very clearly that i have a big ego, but when i am wrong i can admit it. i will admit that i can get intense at times. however, my most sincere intentions are to learn as much as i can about this horrible condition that has stolen so much of my life.tom talks about "unfocused anger" yes i have some of that. no i have a lot of it. actually, ten years ago i was angry or upset 90% of my waking hours. now things are much better. but i can still get riled up about things.i can't stand it when an idiot like flux rips into my ideas which really ARE NOT MY IDEAS!!!!and in a way you did EXACTLY THE SAME THING.but i gave you the benefit of the doubt because you meant well. however, the shear fact that you know nothing about precursor loading told me that you did not know what you were talking about. are you not familiar with animal experiments where they will remove or load a particular amino acid to achieve some condition in the animal?????the biggest difference between you and me is our stance on medicine and the way it is practiced in america.i am pissed at the way i have been treated by the medical establishment. they can shove their designer drugs where the sun does not shine. i am sick and tired of being treated for symptoms. the reason you are 180 degrees opposite of me is because your entire life is based on everything that does not work for me. therefore you are defending what i am attacking.i love science and i love "miracle cures", but i don't think it is going to happen in my lifetime from designer pills (concerning my digestive woes).i believe my answer is going to be multi-multi-multi-modal and a large portion of that is going to be through things like 5-HTP and l-tyrosine. i am doing much better on these than on any psychiatric drug that i have ever taken. these are things that i can buy in the health food store and that is deeply disturbing to you because you perceive it as some type of threat to your power structure.


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## trbell (Nov 1, 2000)

if you actually post some of the information instaed of talking about it we can discuss the information rather than this back and forth opinionating? just because flux tends to be a withholder of information doesn't mean you have to be?tom


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## mikeralph (Jan 27, 2003)

as far as this dr drossman goes, i am intrigued. i will eventually get around to reading his works. but right now i am researching "mycoplasma" and its relationship to CFIDS and fibro with respect to too much nitric oxide and how it all impacts the adrenals. i am chasing down every lead i can come up with, and the more i chase the deeper i become ensnared in this black hole of theories and ideas and research. however, i can either chase or sit on my rear and do nothing or go the doctors and have them tell me "it's all in your head".incidentally, i had a bad IBS day today. all i did was eat saurkraut. i knew i should not have but i could not help it. it showed up on my elisa test as being a "reactor food". i'm sick of eating WALNUTS!i have to figure out why most food is doing this to me.and here is the million dollar question. I NEED TO KNOW WHY MSM (methyl sulfonyl methane) gave me a 95% REMISSION RATE FOR THE 3 1/2 MONTHS THAT I TOOK IT!!!!!!!!k. i hope you are reading this because it would be my hope that you would use your god-given intelligence to come up with a plausible explanation for the above phenomena. if i could understand the exact mechanism by which it worked then i could probably take a "drug" that acted on the same system in my body. which i suspect was my immune system!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## mikeralph (Jan 27, 2003)

tom that is an excellent idea, but right now i am drowning in research. when i get more time i will certainly start to hunt things down on the internet. my most authoritative guide, "the healing nutrients within" is 532 pages and 103 of those pages are references. it would take me forever to scan those in to the computer! (103 PAGES OF REFERENCES!!! and each page averages 16 references. that is a total of 1,648 references. )k. ... you can not call that a book for the "lay public"


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## Carl_has_IBS (Feb 5, 2003)

interesting. is 5htp effective for ibs?


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## trbell (Nov 1, 2000)

zelnorm and lotronex have been shown to be effective for women with ibs and they both apparently modify the reaction of 5ht recepors in the gut.tom


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## mikeralph (Jan 27, 2003)

carl,zelnorm and lotronex treat symptoms. for some people that may be adequate. however, if you are anything like me then you need to get to the root of the problem. manipulating a receptor ---- boy, i don't know---- my gut instinct is that there is so much more to it than that. the future will tell us just how much of a "cure all" these drugs are -- i suspect that they will fail to a large extent (but also be helpful to some).concerning 5htp, it may help IBS to a certain degree, but i also think it is only a small piece to the whole puzzle. 5htp is also something your body has a specific demand for --- your body will manufacture it regardless if you want it to or not.therefore, i believe that it is far better to take 5htp than a synthetic drug like prozac which causes melatonin disturbances and a host of other problems.


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## mikeralph (Jan 27, 2003)

yes i am pretty sure 5-htp would help the average prozac user.


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## trbell (Nov 1, 2000)

how does 5ht differ from serotonin?tom


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## traveller7 (Dec 16, 2002)

I am new to this site, and have had chronic constipation for over 10 years. The only thing that worked well for me was a massive daily dose of Per Diem with senna, and now they have taken that off the market. I have unsuccessfully tried Zelnorm and Miralax. Senocot-S (3 tablets) works when I take it.I am interested in this 5-HT you all are squabbling about....could someone boil it down in simple terms for me ? And is there an over-the-counter brand name associated ? Is it RX ?Thank you.


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## mikeralph (Jan 27, 2003)

5-HTP may not help you very much -- but it could alleviate some symptoms. it is a natural compound manufactured by the body. your body manufactures it whether you want it to or not.when you consume the natural amino acid tryptophan -- your body converts a small percentage of it to 5-HTP. From there, the 5-HTP is converted to serotonin. serotonin as you know, is useful for a lot of people who have either depression, anxiety, anger, or several other problems. (vitamine B6 is crucial for the reaction to take place)you have serotonin receptors all over your body but mainly in the gut. it is possible that a person can raise their serotonin levels via supplementing with 5-htp and then experiencing some type of relief. although everyone is different. it is a lot of trial and error.i deeply suspect that many more factors are involved in IBS symptoms, and this (if it helps) would only be a small part to the puzzle. popping pills will usually not solve such a complex problem.5-htp has been available in health food stores for 5 years.


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## kyestar (Nov 26, 2001)

Personally, Mikeralph, I would be very happy to never see you on this BB again. You are a nasty piece of work.


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## mikeralph (Jan 27, 2003)

kyestar get lost. i'm out of here as soon as i figure this thing out. i've always liked australians but you are changing my mind. when someone screws with me ....then they unleash a hurricane. i got screwed with; i don't tolerate that. now back off.(oh my God, a 21 year old no-nothing child!!!)


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## kyestar (Nov 26, 2001)

Well you certainly are a few screws loose!


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## mikeralph (Jan 27, 2003)

not really. i'm just very intense when it comes to problem solving.


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## Sues (Dec 5, 2001)

I for one am glad, very glad that you are intense. I know I don't have to tell you to keep right on doing what your doing. You obviously have alot of tenacity and thats what it's gonna take to find out what's causing this mess. I appreciate all the information and I do read and dig and decifer and purchase and experiment. I read the different opinions and try and look past the bantering back and forth of personalities, even though I will have to admit my human side gets a giggle out of it sometimes. But the basic information is invaluable. Please don't stop, any of you. Personalities be hanged, it all depends on how we get up that day, or who pissed us off on the freeway usually. I ordered the VSL today so we will see how that goes. I have read that some others on this board have tried it with success and no sucess so we will see. Thanks to all. S


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## gisele27 (Dec 9, 2002)

Would it be harmful to take 5htp along with Zelnorm?


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## trbell (Nov 1, 2000)

why would you do that?tom


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quoteuld it be harmful to take 5htp along with Zelnorm?


It could harmful just to take 5-HTP all by itself.


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