# probiotics for IBS-D



## Friday (Dec 9, 2008)

Did anyone find taking probiotics (eg yoghurts or tablets) has helped with their IBS-D?


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## BQ (May 22, 2000)

It helps me when I use one short term. I use one whenever I am taking an antibiotic for some other infection. I use it when I feel like I have too much gas and bloating and gurgling going on for me.I found if I continued to take them everyday indefinitely that I actually eventually ended up with more D.So for me I use them on occasion and they do work that way for me.


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## Feline_Divine (Apr 14, 2011)

I tried a few probiotics, which didn't help me. One my docs suggested I try Align because she had some samples. It worked for a few weeks and that was it. I was back to where I started.


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## pkatiraei (Apr 15, 2011)

Dear all,I am a physician treating IBS through an integrative model and chose to join your group to see if I can provide you some service and relief. Through some of the things I have learned (many of which my patients have taught me), I have seen people recover from IBS. The question of probiotics is a tricky one. 1) NOt all probiotics are created equally. Some probiotics purchased online (and even in the stores) may have been sitting in a warm warehouse for months in which case what you are getting is far less effective than it was intended.2) There are several strains that seem to work better than others. Some strains that published studies have shown to be helpful include: Lactobacillus acidophilus, Bifidobacterium infantis, Bifidobacterium lactis, Lactobacillus casei, Bifidobacterium bifidum, Lactobacillus rhamnosus, Pediococcus acidilactici, Bifidobacterium longum, Bifidobacterium breve, Lactobacillus paracasei. Try to purchase products that contain some or most of these strains. I, particularly think the B infantis may play an important role.3) Probiotics alone are just not enough. The analogy I give to my patients is if you have an oil well fire and do not turn off the fuel source, but keep dumping water on it, you will not be able to get the fire to go out. Probiotics are the water, you must understand the fuel source for your IBS. For some stress is the fuel source, for others it can be one or a combination of: diet, parasites, candida, and even heavy metals. 3) You must dose your probiotics to get at least 10 billion colonies per day. STudies have shown that less than this simply does not do much. If you think about it, you have between 100 and 1,000 TRILLION bacteria in your gut. What is 10 billion in comaprison to this?I hope you find this helpful. If there is a desire, in the coming weeks and months, I hope to share with you what I have learned to help you find your way out of this disease (and it is not a syndrome - you have a condition that does have inflammation and pathology (there is something wrong) - - it is just that your pathology cannot be found by the standard tools that most gastroenterologists use. If anyone wants, I am happy to point you to some very well written scientific articles that clearly demonstrate this pathology in people with IBS.Best of luck you all,Dr. K


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## PD85 (Aug 19, 2010)

I've tried a few of probiotics without any good result. Just went through a bottle of Udo's Choice Adult Probiotic and once I adjusted after 4-5 days, I was the same as without them. Now I'm trying Jarro-Dophilus EPS. Other probiotics I've tried are Digestive Advantage, Align, and NOW 4x6, each made my symptoms worse.


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## jmc09 (Oct 5, 2009)

Thank you Dr K for sharing with us and welcome to the forum.I look forward to learning more from your posts over the coming weeks and months and it does seem a rarity for a medical professional to share their experiences with others in this way.


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## Trudyg (Aug 16, 2002)

I've been on Rezyst for over 2 months now, prescription needed to get it. Grape chewable, not refrigerated. Have had no luck finding out what's in it. But--I have definitely seen an improvement. I've taken other, over the counter types for months at a time and had either no change or gotten better and then gone back to D, but this has really firmed me up.


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## rfairfield (Apr 13, 2011)

No.Probiotics, aggravate IBS.Read my 27 years of dealing with IBS, and what I've learned on my own, despite doctors trying to lead my in the wrong direction.No, I am not a doctor.I have a brain instead. Hello.I have had first hand experience with IBS for 27 years.That's longer than most doctors have been practicing.In my 27 years, I have learned a thing or two about IBS.I have learned that your doctor cannot help you.You are on your own.Doctors are idiots. They tend not to believe what they cannot understand. They don't ever help peoplewith this. If they did, this wouldn't be such a problem. Look at all the people that come here.Forget the doctor, they not only a waste of time and money, they give false hope, and lead you downthe wrong path...a path of confusion.Forget over the counter and prescription medications. Worthless. I would stoptaking them. They get in the way.I am serious, over the counter medication like Gas-x, Pepto, Imodium....whatever, are all worthless forthis.They do not help this at its root cause.But you CAN be greatly helped. And quickly.Please listen closely...And read to the end.I very well may be able to help.I do believe that most of these gastro problems, IBS, Colitis, Chrohns, are all under the same basicumbrella disorder.They are all caused by a massive imbalance in the intestinal ecology. IE, way too many bad bacteriaand or yeast, vs the good bacteria. very often these symptoms begin after a course or more of anti bioticuse. Antibiotics wipe out both good and bad bacteria. Most of the time, the good bacteria reestablishesitself, and you are just fine. But for some reason, in some people for whatever reason, the bad bacteriaget the upper hand, and prevent healthy levels of good bacteria from ever getting reestablished.Then the yeast can grow out of control.Contrary to popular belief, Probiotics are not the answer. For those who suffer from IBS, aNorweian study, published online by BMC Gastroenterol. 2010; 10: 16, { Department of Medicine, Innlandet Hospital Trust, Gjøvik, Norway 2Unit for Applied Clinical Research, Department of Cancer Research and Molecular Medicine, Norwegian University of Science and Technology, Trondheim, Norway 3Nofima Mat AS, Ås, Norway Corresponding author. Solveig C Ligaarden: [email protected]; Lars Axelsson: [email protected]; Kristine Naterstad: [email protected]; Stian Lydersen: [email protected]; Per G Farup: [email protected]} {Conclusions This trial shows for the first time an unfavourable effect on symptoms in subjects with IBS after intake of a potential probiotic. The trial registration number.... Clinical trials NCT00355810.} found that in IBS sufferers probiotics very often will make IBS muchworse.Yes worse.Human beings are not meant to shovel down those levels of good bacteria on a daily basis. Its too muchfor the system.But FBO...is cause by yeast.Itchy is yeast.Yeast ferments food in the gut, and produces gas and bloating, as well as toxic compounds that result inFBO.Caprylic Acid is the answer.Get some liquid Caprylic Acid...Caproyl from whole approach or anywhere else you can find it.Mix 1 tablespoon with Psyllium Husk Powder...such as Yerba Prima, or any brand you like, add 8 oz ofwarm water, and mix it up really good, and drink it before it gets too thick.Caprylic Acid absorbs into your liver quickly and away from your intestinal track where you need it tobe,.... so by mixing it with the fiber, the fiber prevents it from absorbing into the liver, and keeps itwhere you need it to be.Think of it as foaming Draino for your gut. It expands, and puts all sides of the intestinal lining incontact with the caprylic acid.Do not stop this as soon as you begin to feel better. I kept the pressure on for 2 years doing this,despite being better within a few days. I still take it from time to time as maintenance, but the resultswere permanent. Take it once or twice a day, and start the fiber off with small amounts, then build up towhatever the label says.And....you will have to go very...very easy on the sugar. Stop the sweets. Yeast thrives on sugar. So donot feed it.Ever ferment beer or wine...or see the process? Its very similar. But in your gut, some of the fermentedbyproducts are volatile chemical compounds, that cause FBO.But thats only part of it.Undoubtedly, you also have an establishment of bad bacteria that outweighs the good.You fix this in layers. Caprylic for the yeast...and get this...Sauerkraut 2 times a day for the bad bacteria. Its fermented, but the vinegar which is powerful enoughto wipe out C-Diff, will also greatly restore your functions, sometimes within a day or two.All this info is scattered around...out there on the internet. The difficulty is picking out the good info,from the sheer garbage. But its out there.It would appear our doctors would be the very last to ever figure this out. And for what theycharge...its just unacceptable. They are worse than useless, because they condemn people to a lifetimeof diminished quality of life...and they just don't care. They do not deserve your business. You aresmarter than they are, and you are about to help yourself.With general IBS its an imbalance of bad bacteria. Not harmful bacteria, but disruptive.With Colitis, there may be h pylori involved. A now known cause of ulcerations in the digestive track.Doctors used to scoff at the idea ulcers were caused by bacteria as well...idiots.And with Chrohns, there is evidence that a bovine bacteria...MAP, for short is involved. You get it fromdrinking contaminated milk or dairy products. Roughly 2% of pasteurized milk is contaminated withMAP.So I'll recap quickly:FBO is caused by yeast.Use Caprylic Acid and Psyllium Husk Powder for this, as outlined above, twice a day.Eat Sauerkraut twice a day. Hard to believe, but it works very well. One of the very best things I'vefound! Amazing!Extra Virgin Coconut oil everyday. This rocks, and despite its lard like appearance, raises the goodcholesterol and decreases the bad. It has anti fungal properties, and will give you a real energy boost aswell.Grapefruit seed extract.Oregano oil.Colloidal Silver.....use very sparingly!..For emergencies.Stay away from sugar.Stay away from probiotics. Forget the theory behind it, it worsens IBS. If it worked, nobody wouldstill be suffering right?Find a good Homeopathic or Alternative health doctor. And if you are not comfortable with him/her,then find another. Doctor shop for sure!Jordan Rubin, the man behind Garden of Life products has a very good book out, The Maker's Diet,detailing his near death experience with Chrohns. Jordan has got a lot of it right. We eat #### food, andtake prescription drugs, that mess up our delicate systems. But I caution against Mr Rubin's mainstaple....his probiotics that he speaks so highly about. I took his product years ago for many monthsfaithfully, and things got so bad, I had to quit my job. Not the way to go...The stuff in his book is good,but I steer clear from anything containing probiotics. All Garden of Life products contain probiotics.You can find his book here: http://www.makers-diet.net/aboutbook.htmI see the ads for probiotics on this site here. There are pushing that ####. If it worked, nobody wouldeven be here! AND...I suspect that you need specific strains that are native to the land your ancestrycomes from to work most effectively with your own biology. American Indians can consume Gardiaand they don't even get sick from it. Different systems, designed to tolerate different things. Probioticsout of a bottle may help one person, and almost land another in the hospital.You were so honest and open, my heart goes out.I hope I can help. I believe this can.Stick with it.NEVER....never, give up.For every problem there is a solution.Google is your friend, research. Keep at it.Ive suffered with IBS since I took Erithromycin twice in 1984. It was a hard road until 2004 when Idiscovered Coconut Oil. 20 years of suffering. Things began to get better. Never 100%, but somethings like FBO resolved completely and permanently. I've learned more since then. Currently, allthings are normal. And I have not been bothered by this in my daily activities in years. An occasionalbad day, but I believe everyone has one every now and then.The important thing to remember is that its an imbalance, and your suffering is caused by yeast andbacteria. An unbalanced system.Knowing that will help you in knowing where to look for answers that are a custom fit for your specificneeds.


Friday said:


> Did anyone find taking probiotics (eg yoghurts or tablets) has helped with their IBS-D?


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## BQ (May 22, 2000)

Well rfairfield thanks for sharing what works for you. Unfortunately what is true for you, simply won't be true for others. But we appreciate you sharing what has helped you and of course I hope it can indeed help someone else.


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## jmc09 (Oct 5, 2009)

Dr K says 'I hope you find this helpful. If there is a desire, in the coming weeks and months, I hope to share with you what I have learned to help you find your way out of this disease (and it is not a syndrome - you have a condition that does have *inflammation *and pathology (there is something wrong) -' The use of the word inflammation here interests me,especially when IBS isnt considered an Inflammatory Bowel Disease.If this is so,why are doctors so reluctant to prescribe anti inflammatories for IBS?I have had my best years of IBS while taking an anti inflammatory drug,Sulfasalazine,yet so many sufferers arent even given the chance to try them.


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## BQ (May 22, 2000)

I don't know but I think that this deserves way more research money driven it's way and different treatment options explored for this.


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## BayRat (Mar 28, 2011)

I've recently read where techniques have improved to the point where patchy micro-inflammation has been visualized in the intestinal tract of some IBS patients. Whether this micro-inflammation is consistent or even related to IBS, remains to be seen. I fervently hope that that this ability/concept is being expanded and refined. I believe I did see a member here with IBS who was prescribed Entocort (budesonide, a corticosteroid) as a treatment, but that does seem to be a rarity with this condition.Anti-inflammatory medications do come with varying degrees of risks & side effects. GPs/GIs adhere not only to the existing accepted condition-treatment knowledge base, but also to a set of guidelines termed 'Standard of Care'. These define basic responses/rules that very few would violate without good cause. Common accepted medical practice does not currently indicate use of anti-inflammatory meds for IBS, at least not till all else has failed and/or inflammation is present. To prescribe an anti-inflammatory medication as a maintenance drug for IBS patients without clear evidence of need and benefit could place them, and the patient, at risk. Treat an IBS patient with no evidence of inflammation with, say, prednisone and have them develop diabetes in 2 years. Could be legally risky for the provider, and certainly a negative result for the patient. First, do no harm. There's no legal/medical risk to a provider for not treating IBS, IBS isn't lethal and isn't shown to increase the risks of developing any other serious medical condition(s).Me personally, I think anti-inflammatory meds ought to be tried more often when all other treatments have failed, unless it's contra-indicated for that particular patient.


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## PD85 (Aug 19, 2010)

rfairfield said:


> So I'll recap quickly:FBO is caused by yeast.Use Caprylic Acid and Psyllium Husk Powder for this, as outlined above, twice a day.Eat Sauerkraut twice a day. Hard to believe, but it works very well. One of the very best things I'vefound! Amazing!Extra Virgin Coconut oil everyday. This rocks, and despite its lard like appearance, raises the goodcholesterol and decreases the bad. It has anti fungal properties, and will give you a real energy boost aswell.Grapefruit seed extract.Oregano oil.Colloidal Silver.....use very sparingly!..For emergencies.Stay away from sugar.Stay away from probiotics. Forget the theory behind it, it worsens IBS. If it worked, nobody wouldstill be suffering right?Find a good Homeopathic or Alternative health doctor. And if you are not comfortable with him/her,then find another. Doctor shop for sure!


You tell us to stay away from probiotics, but then recommend sauerkraut... which is loaded with probiotics... lolI'm not trying to start anything, just pointing this out.


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## BayRat (Mar 28, 2011)

rfairfield said:


> <snip>Contrary to popular belief, Probiotics are not the answer. For those who suffer from IBS, aNorweian study, published online by BMC Gastroenterol. 2010; 10: 16, { Department of Medicine, Innlandet Hospital Trust, Gjøvik, Norway 2Unit for Applied Clinical Research, Department of Cancer Research and Molecular Medicine, Norwegian University of Science and Technology, Trondheim, Norway 3Nofima Mat AS, Ås, Norway Corresponding author. Solveig C Ligaarden: [email protected]; Lars Axelsson: [email protected]; Kristine Naterstad: [email protected]; Stian Lydersen: [email protected]; Per G Farup: [email protected]} {Conclusions This trial shows for the first time an unfavourable effect on symptoms in subjects with IBS after intake of a potential probiotic. *The trial registration number.... Clinical trials NCT00355810.} found that in IBS sufferers probiotics very often will make IBS muchworse.Yes worse.*<snip>


The results of this study were confined to one strain of one bacteria that was contained in a proposed pro-biotic. Not exactly an unequivocal indictment of all, or even most, pro-biotics, as the poster suggests.I perused the entire pdf that was published on that clinical trial, complete with neat-O graphs and stuff. No where did they make any such claim. They did state that they feel that pro-biotics are too commonly viewed as being potentially beneficial, at worst as harmless, without much evidence and that this should be addressed with a more thorough vetting process.The poster seems to have intentionally misconstrued that study's parameters, and falsely attributed a conclusive statement, to lend some dramatic weight to their opinion. There may well be some solid advice there, and we're all entitled to our opinions and experiences, but I'm not wading through and verifying all that just to _maybe_ find a nugget of reliable and helpful information.


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## jmc09 (Oct 5, 2009)

BayRat said:


> I've recently read where techniques have improved to the point where patchy micro-inflammation has been visualized in the intestinal tract of some IBS patients. Whether this micro-inflammation is consistent or even related to IBS, remains to be seen. I fervently hope that that this ability/concept is being expanded and refined. I believe I did see a member here with IBS who was prescribed Entocort (budesonide, a corticosteroid) as a treatment, but that does seem to be a rarity with this condition.Anti-inflammatory medications do come with varying degrees of risks & side effects. GPs/GIs adhere not only to the existing accepted condition-treatment knowledge base, but also to a set of guidelines termed 'Standard of Care'. These define basic responses/rules that very few would violate without good cause. Common accepted medical practice does not currently indicate use of anti-inflammatory meds for IBS, at least not till all else has failed and/or inflammation is present. To prescribe an anti-inflammatory medication as a maintenance drug for IBS patients without clear evidence of need and benefit could place them, and the patient, at risk. Treat an IBS patient with no evidence of inflammation with, say, prednisone and have them develop diabetes in 2 years. Could be legally risky for the provider, and certainly a negative result for the patient. First, do no harm. There's no legal/medical risk to a provider for not treating IBS, IBS isn't lethal and isn't shown to increase the risks of developing any other serious medical condition(s).Me personally, I think anti-inflammatory meds ought to be tried more often when all other treatments have failed, unless it's contra-indicated for that particular patient.


As it happens I'm currently waiting to start a trial of mesalamine for IBS and mesalamine is an anti inflammatory used for IBD.I will let you know how I get on.


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## pkatiraei (Apr 15, 2011)

Hello everyone,So I thought I would start by posting a very well written article by Barbara and colleagues (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%2012077063). If you look at the right column, you will find additional links to other articles that show the subtle inflammation that us underlying IBS. Why is this commonly not known? This inflammation CANNOT be detected by the standard endoscopy a physician uses, nor by the standard histology that pathologists use when they look at the tissue. Unless they use an electron microscope or very specializes staining techniques, a physician will see NOTHING! (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=18627650) I spent the last two years digging through the literature to better understand why IBS looks as it does. As one better understand IBS, you start seeing why every one of your comments above make so much sense and hold truth. As one point, I can't even begin to understand the frustration of Rfairfield. He/she is right - most physicians don't know what to make of this condition. I spent two years trying to share what I learned with other physicians and got fed up trying - I can't imagine what 27 years would do to me. FYI - Rfairfield has shared with you a lot of valuable tricks to help this condition. I hope to give you guys an understanding that help you better understand how these suggestions may be helpful.Let's start with the inflammation (for those of you that want specific references to points I am making below, just let me know. For the sake of time, I am not posting every reference). The inflammation underlying IBS is amazing! Imagine you have a bunch of trigger happy, anxious people of all walks and races living in very close proximity. There is a chance that some of you with IBS have genetic changes that causes your immune system to be a little more jumpy than others. Now, pretty much ANY THING (stress, diet, fungus, parasites, diet.....) can trigger an immune response (usually starting with mast cells). Mast cells are very sensitive cells that are easily upset/activated. What is amazing is that your nervous system is CONSTANTLY talking to your mast cells (and other immune cells). How many of you develop diarrhea when you get stressed? Do you think it is an accident? Your stress, through a stress hormone called CRH (corticotropin releasing hormone), triggers an immune response which then causes mast cells to dump out a various chemicals such as histamine. These chemicals lead to things like diarrhea. An amazing article by Kiank out of UCLA does a great job demonstrating this http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19698778. Notice most of these studies/articles are only a few years old. Most IBS docs have no idea this information exists.Once an immune response starts, it is as if an alarm is sounded, and other immune cells come rushing in to handle the "problem." Except there is no serious problem. But yet they wage war on a perceived enemy and in the process damage the gut and nerve endings causing you all to experience IBS. Seybold's document shows how this happens. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19655115Now what I wrote above is a gross oversimplification of what actually happens. But it should be enough to give you an idea. Why is it that probiotics can make some people worse? For some of you, the reason for the inflammation is overgrowth of bacteria in your small intestines. This is particularly a problem if you are on a PPI like Prevacid. Lin has done a great job explaining this http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=15316000. How would more probiotics help when there are already too many bacteria? They don't! So, some of you should not be taking probiotics. You should be taking antibiotics.How about anti-inflammatory drugs or herbs? You remember the Iraq oilfield fires? They couldn't turn off the oil, and no amount of water was enough to put out the fire. You can't use an anti-inflammatory drug or herb effectively until you have addressed the source of the inflammation. They just don't work!!I hope this helps you.Sincerely,Pejman Katiraei (Dr. K)


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## dlbaral (Oct 19, 2010)

Thanks again Dr. K for your insight. I have read about you on the net and seen an interview done at Loma Linda University. I hope to get my son in to see Dr. K and I will report his progress on this site. How many real doctors who have training in traditional and wholistic medicine take the time to post on this site? Not many. I can only hope for my son and for all of you Dr. K has some answers. I will never be happy until my son has his life back. A 21 year-old should be going out and living his life. IBS is taking this away. All the best.


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## celestin (May 20, 2004)

Friday said:


> Did anyone find taking probiotics (eg yoghurts or tablets) has helped with their IBS-D?


I have had good results not with the 'commercial' probiotics (lactobacillus etc..) but with cheese(s). I mean high fermented cheese: Roquefort, Camembert etc (in other words cheeses full of moulds/yeasts/microbs/bacteriae). I take them everyday with lactAse, because I do not tolerate lactose. They have helped me quite a lot, but it seems that I am the only one! (I 've already written that here, but at least one of the mods disagred with me!)


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## overitnow (Nov 25, 2001)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1382343/Dr K.,Interesting to read your accounts of inflammatory issues and our condition. If you have a little time, would you take a look at the above study and see if it can be squared with your summary. In my case, I began taking a flavonoid supplement shown to decrease the aggregation of those platelets involved in cholesterol buildups and found it slowly resolved my IBS conditions. From what I know of the platelet modulation, led by the research of Dr Folts, a major contributor to platelet response and aspirin studies, the platelet aggregation will not mediate with aspirin in the presence of adrenaline. (The flavonoids are able to sidestep that.). This would suggest another factor in the stress-D response. As well, I have also seen studies that trace the surface changes to the platelets, that allows this clotting, to adenosine in the bloodstream. Your final observation regarding addressing causes before effects rings true with me. While I know this is often a mystery, in my case I was able to see the cause of my problem in the ashtray on my desk. As far as I can tell looking only at my own experience, while the cigarettes started the problem, once the inflammation was in place and responsive to a wide range of triggers, just eliminating those triggers did nothing for me. s you are suggesting, it wasn't until I started adding an anti-inflammatory supplement that the D stopped. What is particularly satisfying is that this problem can be addressed without the side effects often attributed to pharmaceutical anti-inflammatories. What is frustrating is that numbers of people will just go to their doctor and demand anti-inflammatories from doctors who haven't looked at any of this material. As an ex-tobacco addict, it is also saddening the number of people who continue to smoke while looking for something that will dry out their bowels. You can't put out a fire by throwing gasoline on it.Mark


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## Trudyg (Aug 16, 2002)

Just a thought, but there is food out there with anti-inflammatory properties that you can add to your diet. Eat fatty fish, use gingerroot, sprinkle turmeric on your veggies, if you notice it upsetting your tummy then don't do it anymore. It takes weeks to notice a difference, but in the (very) long run your health won't be harmed and may be improved--without pharmaceuticals. Not just the anti-inflammatory effects, but the overall benefits is what attracts me--fish and walnuts can help prevent dementia, too, and clean out your blood of plaque, lowering risk of stroke and atheroschlerosis. Tastes better than that baby aspirin. Your overall health, the big picture, that's what I'm going for.


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## MIRMAK (Sep 27, 2009)

Sorry, maybe I don't quite understand (probably because I'm not native English speaker), but just clarify for me, is this true that aspirin has anti-inflammatory effects (so it can help with inflammatory in bowels)?Because recently I had a flue, but I still needed to work, so I took a lot of aspirin and what helped with my stomach a much (I didn't have morning pain, I had my stools better formed), of course I was not completely cure, but I felt myself better than any day in last three years. I restarted again the same flavonoid supplement which Mark you are talking about with some extra multi-vitamins, probiotics (complete complex made by the same company), so maybe it will resolve my issues slowly. But I already tried only this flavonoid supplement around a year ago for two months and it didn't help.


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## jmc09 (Oct 5, 2009)

As i said earlier it seems silly not to try anti inflammatories for a disease that causes inflammation,even if only microscopic inflammation.It could simply be case of milder anti inflammatories leading to slightly stronger ones as everybody has different tolerances.It has to be better than dishing out anti depressants like candy/sweets,surely?


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## BayRat (Mar 28, 2011)

Microscopic Colitis is only diagnosed by biopsies showing _only_ micro-inflammation, I don't see a whole lot of difference between MC and IBS-D, just a degree of inflammation. MC's common step-up treatment regimen is Diet > OTC Meds > Anti-inflammatories > Immuno-suppressants > Possible surgery.The patchy micro-inflammation found in some IBS patients is very intriguing. (made the mainstream health news in summer 2010?) As I'd posted, maybe there's not all that much difference between MC and IBS-D. If their techniques pan out and prove that micro-inflammation is common in IBS patients it would open an entirely new family of treatments as part of the accepted regimen for IBS patients. No doubt that anti-inflammatories could help many IBS-D'ers. The meds shortcomings remain, they help control symptoms yet still don't address the underlying cause of the inflammation. The majority of IBD patients see improvement with anti-inflammatory meds, but not as many IBD'ers achieve a sustained remission as they'd hope, often sustaining the improvement is dependent on maintaining/titrating the dose.The 5-ASA family is the 'safer' of them with a well established profile and track record. The corticosteroids, unfortunately, have some serious potential side effects. Budesonide was a fantastic improvement over Prednisone, but the dangers of long term use remain. I believe the safety profile of budesonide was 'officially' taken out to 6 months which means it's most commonly used as a pulse treatment, tapering down over that period like other steroids, and studies are ongoing for it's use as a long term maintenance drug. There are many, many IBD & MC patients that have been on a sustained low dose of budesonide (6 to 3 mg a day) for years with no ill effects, 5/6 years is not unheard of. So it seems the safety testing is being carried out in the field as well as in the lab.But anti-inflammatories are still no cure. Not for IBS, not for IBD. Symptom control -Yes. But a treatment that's therapeutic to the underlying cause? -No. I still wish they'd give it a serious go for IBS'ers on a patient-by-patient basis as long as there's no contra-indication. There's so few effective treatments for IBS patients, and so much suffering. Seems downright cruel not to try. The detection techniques will no doubt improve & standardize, that'll help. Health care insurers balk when there's lack of evidence of need/benefit. They should run their numbers again, costs of medical visits/procedures vs costs of implementation/coverage. Somebody needs to blink because too many people are suffering terribly, perhaps needlessly.


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## overitnow (Nov 25, 2001)

MIRMAK, in that London Hospital study they did specifically rule out the use of aspirin for this; and adrenaline (from stress, fear, etc.) causes the aspirin not to work, so, unless you have found a way to be serene in the face of IBS, which I certainly couldn't do, then it is not likely to be useful over the long term.Bay Rat, I would guess we would need a biologist's comments to know if there is a therapy available to replace the inflamed GI lining with "new" cells. Obviously, as I have been not smoking for well over that 7 year period required to replace all of our cells--of course that is just "common knowledge" and I have no idea if it is actually true--just removing the original antagonist was not enough for me. Maybe stem cells? Personally I am grateful not to have to deal with more than two or three soft poops in the morning. There are probably a few things that could be removed from the marketplace that would go a long way in lowering the percentage of people who will suffer with this; but we just "need" those high fat McMeals and our beer and smokes to get us through the day.







Mark


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## MIRMAK (Sep 27, 2009)

Thanks, Mark. It is clear for me now. So aspirin is not an answer. I will stick for now with what I'm currently taking (at least for 2 months) and will see if it will help with my situation. Currently (after 2 weeks) I don't see improvements...


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## BayRat (Mar 28, 2011)

overitnow said:


> <snip>Bay Rat, I would guess we would need a biologist's comments to know if there is a therapy available to replace the inflamed GI lining with "new" cells. Obviously, as I have been not smoking for well over that 7 year period required to replace all of our cells--of course that is just "common knowledge" and I have no idea if it is actually true--just removing the original antagonist was not enough for me. Maybe stem cells? Personally I am grateful not to have to deal with more than two or three soft poops in the morning. There are probably a few things that could be removed from the marketplace that would go a long way in lowering the percentage of people who will suffer with this; but we just "need" those high fat McMeals and our beer and smokes to get us through the day.
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overitnow, They may just have done that. I saw a news blurb (last year?) that somebody/somewhere *sigh* managed to successfully grow intestinal tissue from cultured stem cells. I was unable to locate enough information and supporting literature to assure myself of the validity of this development. Imagine, a full intestinal transplant grown from your own stem cells! But even that would only eventually succumb again if the underlying cause is not wholly contained in the intestines and/or the cause is not resolved and/or the genetic mutation is simply cloned back in. Maybe in 5 thousand years they'll have a master gene code that can overwrite our own, much like a Retrovirus. We surely live in interesting times.







As to the whole How long till the intestinal cells replenish/replace? -I have no idea. Maybe we who might have damaged cell production or mutated genes, from birth, environmental factors or accumulated damage, can only achieve a checkmate, at best.I'm not that far into my own journey with a discovered irritant and trying to be patient in the time required to 'undo' the possible damage. I'll let ya know in about 6 more years. And though I'm middling careful with diet, I've by no means ceased seeking additional irritants that provoke/worsen my condition. Devil is in the details, perhaps. Where there's one, maybe there's more? After about 12 years of disappointing results and a growing concern of what these meds may be doing to my body, I've quit that game of prescription meds, for now anyway. So far, not as bad as I'd feared. Just Imodium and/or Simethicone as needed. Yeah, 3 Ds every am and 2 in the pm is normal for me. After years of 20+ a day that's quite acceptable.


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## dlbaral (Oct 19, 2010)

All of you are amazing individuals. I know it is not cancer but I can't imagine a more horrific condition than what you people deal with every day. I only hope there is some breakthrough soon. As I have said many times, I will never be truly happy unitl my son has some sort of a normal life. I'll report on how our visit with Dr. K in Santa Monica, CA goes. He is an Osteophatic physician who uses western and wholistic medicine. I recieved a nine page questionaire to fill out about my 21 year old son. Quit extensive questions. Health history, family history, family relationship history, etc. He looks at all areas of ones life. We have seen to many doctors to get to excited. I will not give up. My son thinks it will be another snake oil salesman but yet he will go because he is suffering. The western doctors and so called experts have no clue. I am optomistic with Dr. K because he seems so well rounded and open. I'll we can do is try. Be well everyone.


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## pkatiraei (Apr 15, 2011)

Hi Mark,You posted a great article. One of the things about the human body is for us to realize that we will never come close to understanding the complexity of this organism. Can platelets play a part in IBS? It is possible and in theory makes sense. I have to admit that in all the articles I reviewed, the mechanisms you posted in your article were not noted, but it does not mean it is not possible. One thing you can ask yourself is, where does the original tissue dysfunction originate from that causes the platelet activation? Platelets usually need a stimulus to then generate a response. I wouldn't be surprised if they played a part in perpetuating the cycle of IBS. Where does IBS start from? That has been my focus of attention. As you are pointing out, once the cycle of IBS starts, various types of inflammatory cells get involved. It is like a popular block party. A few get it going, and then next thing you know hundreds of people may be joining in. So who starts the party?Pejman Katiraei


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## KarenMcP (Mar 29, 2011)

> Why is it that probiotics can make some people worse? For some of you, the reason for the inflammation is overgrowth of bacteria in your small intestines. This is particularly a problem if you are on a PPI like Prevacid. Lin has done a great job explaining this http://www.ncbi.nlm....?term=15316000. How would more probiotics help when there are already too many bacteria? They don't! So, some of you should not be taking probiotics. You should be taking antibiotics.How about anti-inflammatory drugs or herbs? You remember the Iraq oilfield fires? They couldn't turn off the oil, and no amount of water was enough to put out the fire. You can't use an anti-inflammatory drug or herb effectively until you have addressed the source of the inflammation. They just don't work!!Pejman Katiraei


Thanks so much for posting this - this describes exactly what has happened to me with probiotics. I don't know for sure that I have SIBO but have an endoscopy on the 3rd of May and will ask about it. When I eat carbs I am in agony with excruciating mid-abdominal pain that makes me almost pass out. I did try to open the link on pubmed that you posted but it is broken. Do you have a title for this study?As for anti-inflammatory drugs are there any over the counter ones? Or does it need to be by prescriptionThanks - I'm so grateful to have found this site.KarenOE: Just as an aside I am not on a PPI - I've been prescribed a number of different ones but they all cause unbearable stomach pain


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