# bad spasms



## jools41 (Jan 8, 2004)

i have been getting bad spasms for the last 2 days, i have suffered from these spasms for the last 4 yrs but this is the worst they have ever been, im taking buscopan but they are not hitting the pain







and the pain is really bad does anyone else suffer from this?


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

I have gotten severe pain from spasms (that was my typical pattern)..but if this is new for you, it may be worth getting checked for other things that cause acute extreme abdominal pain.K.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

I have gotten severe pain from spasms (that was my typical pattern)..but if this is new for you, it may be worth getting checked for other things that cause acute extreme abdominal pain.K.


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## sisu1308 (Sep 27, 2004)

I hear you and I'm going through it now. Wish I knew something that could help it. Just know you aren't alone!


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## sisu1308 (Sep 27, 2004)

I hear you and I'm going through it now. Wish I knew something that could help it. Just know you aren't alone!


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:i have been getting bad spasms for the last 2 days,


How do you know you are having spasms?


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:i have been getting bad spasms for the last 2 days,


How do you know you are having spasms?


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## jools41 (Jan 8, 2004)

i know im getting bad spasms because i have been getting these for 4 years, you know when you are getting them because you are doubled over with pain which can be very sore plus most people with ibs normally experience spasms, i can only describe the spasms being like labour pains







as times goes on the pain gradually gets worse


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## jools41 (Jan 8, 2004)

i know im getting bad spasms because i have been getting these for 4 years, you know when you are getting them because you are doubled over with pain which can be very sore plus most people with ibs normally experience spasms, i can only describe the spasms being like labour pains







as times goes on the pain gradually gets worse


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: you know when you are getting them because you are doubled over with pain


That is just pain. How do you know they are spasms?


> quote: which can be very sore plus


What does it mean to be sore? Soreness like one would get from doing too many situps? This sounds like a novel symptom and not related to IBS.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: you know when you are getting them because you are doubled over with pain


That is just pain. How do you know they are spasms?


> quote: which can be very sore plus


What does it mean to be sore? Soreness like one would get from doing too many situps? This sounds like a novel symptom and not related to IBS.


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## jools41 (Jan 8, 2004)

flux (our resident doctor) what silly questions you ask







i know they are spasms as that is what i have been told by a qualified doctor which your NOT. They are related to ibs again a qualified doctor told me that. being doubled over in pain means being in a great deal of PAIN, dont give people advice when your NOT qualified leave that to the professionals


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## jools41 (Jan 8, 2004)

flux (our resident doctor) what silly questions you ask







i know they are spasms as that is what i have been told by a qualified doctor which your NOT. They are related to ibs again a qualified doctor told me that. being doubled over in pain means being in a great deal of PAIN, dont give people advice when your NOT qualified leave that to the professionals


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: i know they are spasms as that is what i have been told by a qualified doctor


How does the doctor know?


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: i know they are spasms as that is what i have been told by a qualified doctor


How does the doctor know?


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

flux,after 4 looooooong years of getting spasms she knows what it feels like. if she says it is a spasm it is a spasm.if her IBS just struck within the past couple of months then your silly interogation may not be so silly. don't insult her intelligence.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

flux,after 4 looooooong years of getting spasms she knows what it feels like. if she says it is a spasm it is a spasm.if her IBS just struck within the past couple of months then your silly interogation may not be so silly. don't insult her intelligence.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

my spasms used to be so bad i could actually see my abdomen twitching.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

my spasms used to be so bad i could actually see my abdomen twitching.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

by the way it sounds like you are playing games with her.it is almost as though you suspect something else. if you suspect something else then....S-P-I-T it O-U-T!!!!!either you have something to say to her or you are toying with her. which is it?either way you are being cruel to a suffering person.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

by the way it sounds like you are playing games with her.it is almost as though you suspect something else. if you suspect something else then....S-P-I-T it O-U-T!!!!!either you have something to say to her or you are toying with her. which is it?either way you are being cruel to a suffering person.


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## peardrops (Jan 3, 2004)

Hi Jools, I know what you mean about spasms! When I had a lapaaroscopy years ago (not for IBS), the surgeon noticed that my colon was going into spasms. If spasms don't exist why then are we prescribed antispasmodics? The colon is a muscle if I'm correct, figures then that this, like any muscle can go into spasms. Over to you Flux.....


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## peardrops (Jan 3, 2004)

Hi Jools, I know what you mean about spasms! When I had a lapaaroscopy years ago (not for IBS), the surgeon noticed that my colon was going into spasms. If spasms don't exist why then are we prescribed antispasmodics? The colon is a muscle if I'm correct, figures then that this, like any muscle can go into spasms. Over to you Flux.....


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: If spasms don't exist why then are we prescribed antispasmodics?


It's actually a holdover from the days when medical science believed IBS was a pure motility disorder and because those were the only drugs doctors had to give.These drugs may appear to work because normal muscular activity in the gut itself may be painful in IBS and because they may affect the pain transmission itself.


> quote:The colon is a muscle if I'm correct, figures then that this, like any muscle can go into spasms.


Spasm is a nebulous term when applied to something you can't see. Clinically it used to describe a state of a skeletal muscle, where a skeletal muscle spontaneously is "stuck" in a violent and tetanic (continuous) contraction and often there is still muscle tone present in the opposing muscles. You can see that the muscle is contracted and there is special about that state that hurts. (Merely contracting a body muscle isn't ordinarily painful.)It's not clear to me what it would mean for a smooth muscle such as the colon to go into spasm. How would one see that it is in spasm? How long must it be contracted before it considered an abnormal contraction? Smooth muscle in the gut isn't ordinarily voluntary control. There are also no opposing muscles that spasming muscle would be working against.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: If spasms don't exist why then are we prescribed antispasmodics?


It's actually a holdover from the days when medical science believed IBS was a pure motility disorder and because those were the only drugs doctors had to give.These drugs may appear to work because normal muscular activity in the gut itself may be painful in IBS and because they may affect the pain transmission itself.


> quote:The colon is a muscle if I'm correct, figures then that this, like any muscle can go into spasms.


Spasm is a nebulous term when applied to something you can't see. Clinically it used to describe a state of a skeletal muscle, where a skeletal muscle spontaneously is "stuck" in a violent and tetanic (continuous) contraction and often there is still muscle tone present in the opposing muscles. You can see that the muscle is contracted and there is special about that state that hurts. (Merely contracting a body muscle isn't ordinarily painful.)It's not clear to me what it would mean for a smooth muscle such as the colon to go into spasm. How would one see that it is in spasm? How long must it be contracted before it considered an abnormal contraction? Smooth muscle in the gut isn't ordinarily voluntary control. There are also no opposing muscles that spasming muscle would be working against.


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## captaincolon (Jul 6, 2004)

Some interesting info about spasms in connection with IBS from an article in the April, 1997 issue of Johns Hopkins Magazine:


> quote:...(edited)... In IBS, the factory is out of sync.Schuster and his colleagues conducted a series of studies in which volunteers wore tiny pressure transducers that recorded the pressure of the muscles lining their colon and rectum. Recordings were made over a 24-hour period, while volunteers went about their normal daily routines.The researchers found that many IBS patients have disorganized and significantly more vigorous contractions. The muscles tend to spasm. "There's a more prolonged contraction, over a larger area," says Schuster. "It's like having a Charlie horse in the gut."The Hopkins team found that while healthy volunteers had between six to eight peristaltic contractions in their colon within a 24-hour period, IBS volunteers who tended to be constipated had almost none, and volunteers who frequently had diarrhea had as many as 25 peristaltic contractions per day. There is no agreement as to the cause of IBS.Schuster's experiments indicate that spastic contractions cause the abdominal pain of IBS. But that is far from the end of the story. For one thing, some IBS volunteers do not appear to have spasms--at least not detectable ones. Also, spasms can occur without triggering pain (as in healthy people who experience the painless spasms of gas bubbles). And even if spasms do trigger IBS pain, what triggers the spasms? The illness appears to be a complicated soup, and possibly one with many ingredients. While researchers have not found a definitive explanation of the syndrome's underpinnings, they have intriguing leads.a) Many or all people with IBS have a much lower threshhold for intestinal pressure or pain, says Schuster. So an innocuous gas bubble for most people might send an IBS patient running to the medicine cabinet....(the article goes on)...


ref:"Bowels in an Uproar" Article -Captain Colon


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## captaincolon (Jul 6, 2004)

Some interesting info about spasms in connection with IBS from an article in the April, 1997 issue of Johns Hopkins Magazine:


> quote:...(edited)... In IBS, the factory is out of sync.Schuster and his colleagues conducted a series of studies in which volunteers wore tiny pressure transducers that recorded the pressure of the muscles lining their colon and rectum. Recordings were made over a 24-hour period, while volunteers went about their normal daily routines.The researchers found that many IBS patients have disorganized and significantly more vigorous contractions. The muscles tend to spasm. "There's a more prolonged contraction, over a larger area," says Schuster. "It's like having a Charlie horse in the gut."The Hopkins team found that while healthy volunteers had between six to eight peristaltic contractions in their colon within a 24-hour period, IBS volunteers who tended to be constipated had almost none, and volunteers who frequently had diarrhea had as many as 25 peristaltic contractions per day. There is no agreement as to the cause of IBS.Schuster's experiments indicate that spastic contractions cause the abdominal pain of IBS. But that is far from the end of the story. For one thing, some IBS volunteers do not appear to have spasms--at least not detectable ones. Also, spasms can occur without triggering pain (as in healthy people who experience the painless spasms of gas bubbles). And even if spasms do trigger IBS pain, what triggers the spasms? The illness appears to be a complicated soup, and possibly one with many ingredients. While researchers have not found a definitive explanation of the syndrome's underpinnings, they have intriguing leads.a) Many or all people with IBS have a much lower threshhold for intestinal pressure or pain, says Schuster. So an innocuous gas bubble for most people might send an IBS patient running to the medicine cabinet....(the article goes on)...


ref:"Bowels in an Uproar" Article -Captain Colon


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## captaincolon (Jul 6, 2004)

I believe, like flux said, that even normal peristaltic contractions in the bowel, which usually cause no pain in those without IBS, can cause pain in IBS patients because of the abnormalities in the brain-gut axis thing. I guess then when the "spasms" documented in IBS patients in the above study come along, the pain can get substantially worse because of the severity of the spasms. I think that's the kind of pain people are referring to here (and I believe I'm quite familiar with it myself - I really get it if I don't get enough fiber in my diet, which excaberates the spasms).


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## captaincolon (Jul 6, 2004)

I believe, like flux said, that even normal peristaltic contractions in the bowel, which usually cause no pain in those without IBS, can cause pain in IBS patients because of the abnormalities in the brain-gut axis thing. I guess then when the "spasms" documented in IBS patients in the above study come along, the pain can get substantially worse because of the severity of the spasms. I think that's the kind of pain people are referring to here (and I believe I'm quite familiar with it myself - I really get it if I don't get enough fiber in my diet, which excaberates the spasms).


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

flux wrote:"These drugs may appear to work because normal muscular activity in the gut itself may be painful in IBS and because they may affect the pain transmission itself."*WRONG*antispasmodics work to some degree because they *RELAX* the muscle. it is possible that they also affect pain transmission -- i'm not sure on that one.jools,don't fall for this nonsense, you really are experiencing spasms.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

flux wrote:"These drugs may appear to work because normal muscular activity in the gut itself may be painful in IBS and because they may affect the pain transmission itself."*WRONG*antispasmodics work to some degree because they *RELAX* the muscle. it is possible that they also affect pain transmission -- i'm not sure on that one.jools,don't fall for this nonsense, you really are experiencing spasms.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: Spasm is a nebulous term when applied to something you can't see.


it is like i said before, my spasms were so bad i could actually see and feel the twitching going on all the way to the skin on my abdomen. don't tell me you can't see it.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: Spasm is a nebulous term when applied to something you can't see.


it is like i said before, my spasms were so bad i could actually see and feel the twitching going on all the way to the skin on my abdomen. don't tell me you can't see it.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: (Merely contracting a body muscle isn't ordinarily painful.)


but that is not what is happening to her colon. jools is experiencing something more than a *mere* contraction.it's the same with any skeletal muscle. if you were to hook electrodes up to it and feed it juice all day long eventually it is going to start hurting like crazy.have you ever heard of a charley horse?these colon spasms that people find to be so painful may be the rough equivalent of a charley horse.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: (Merely contracting a body muscle isn't ordinarily painful.)


but that is not what is happening to her colon. jools is experiencing something more than a *mere* contraction.it's the same with any skeletal muscle. if you were to hook electrodes up to it and feed it juice all day long eventually it is going to start hurting like crazy.have you ever heard of a charley horse?these colon spasms that people find to be so painful may be the rough equivalent of a charley horse.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Flux wrote:


> quote: It's not *clear* to me what it would mean for a smooth muscle such as the colon to go into spasm.


Unbelievable, simply unbelievable.Tell me you are joking.I'll try and *clear* it up for you. The colon is a muscle and muscles can go into spasms.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Flux wrote:


> quote: It's not *clear* to me what it would mean for a smooth muscle such as the colon to go into spasm.


Unbelievable, simply unbelievable.Tell me you are joking.I'll try and *clear* it up for you. The colon is a muscle and muscles can go into spasms.


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## Jurena (Jan 15, 2004)

jools,I hope you are feeling better. I think we know the difference between a bowl contracting and having to use the bathroom than these spasms. They are not normal. When I get them, I am doubled over in pain and can't go to the bathroom. When I finally do go it is totally liquid. That to me says the bowel is cramping up in a way that it won't let anything pass through. I can hear everthing sloshing around in there trying to get out but it can't. Thats the best way I can describe it. I've had three babies and the pain is comparable.


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## Jurena (Jan 15, 2004)

jools,I hope you are feeling better. I think we know the difference between a bowl contracting and having to use the bathroom than these spasms. They are not normal. When I get them, I am doubled over in pain and can't go to the bathroom. When I finally do go it is totally liquid. That to me says the bowel is cramping up in a way that it won't let anything pass through. I can hear everthing sloshing around in there trying to get out but it can't. Thats the best way I can describe it. I've had three babies and the pain is comparable.


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## AlphaMale (Jan 21, 2004)

Flux this is not fair, you hijacked the thread. We are supposed to offer help not be suspecious about how someone feels.jools what about your diet. Insoluable fibers and starch containing food are the main reason for my colon spasms. whole bread is the worst of all.Give it a try, nothing to loose.


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## AlphaMale (Jan 21, 2004)

Flux this is not fair, you hijacked the thread. We are supposed to offer help not be suspecious about how someone feels.jools what about your diet. Insoluable fibers and starch containing food are the main reason for my colon spasms. whole bread is the worst of all.Give it a try, nothing to loose.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:The Hopkins team found that while healthy volunteers had between six to eight peristaltic contractions in their colon within a 24-hour period, IBS volunteers who tended to be constipated had almost none, and volunteers who frequently had diarrhea had as many as 25 peristaltic contractions per day.


The way I remember it, healthy people had 3 and the IBSers had 8.


> quote:antispasmodics work to some degree because they RELAX the muscle.


Which is contracting normally and which wouldn't hurt a healthy person.


> quote:my spasms were so bad i could actually see and feel the twitching going on all the way to th


Whatever this is, it is *not* IBS. It also sounds like the opposite of what people think of as a spasm, tonic, not clonic.


> quote: same with any skeletal muscle. if you were to hook electrodes up to it and feed it juice all day long eventually it is going to start hurting like crazy


Why would that hurt at all?


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:The Hopkins team found that while healthy volunteers had between six to eight peristaltic contractions in their colon within a 24-hour period, IBS volunteers who tended to be constipated had almost none, and volunteers who frequently had diarrhea had as many as 25 peristaltic contractions per day.


The way I remember it, healthy people had 3 and the IBSers had 8.


> quote:antispasmodics work to some degree because they RELAX the muscle.


Which is contracting normally and which wouldn't hurt a healthy person.


> quote:my spasms were so bad i could actually see and feel the twitching going on all the way to th


Whatever this is, it is *not* IBS. It also sounds like the opposite of what people think of as a spasm, tonic, not clonic.


> quote: same with any skeletal muscle. if you were to hook electrodes up to it and feed it juice all day long eventually it is going to start hurting like crazy


Why would that hurt at all?


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## NancyCat (Jul 16, 1999)

Flux-I have defended you on other threads, I do feel you have some good things to say but in this instance I have to disagree. I have IBS and spasms and the pain associated with them and in my experience and loads of others thats whats happening, SPASMS. Maybe these sensations aren't "technically" spasms, but many of us with IBS get them, feel them and I would imagine that the reason might have something to do with the brain-gut thing and how we feel things more than "normal" people. Sometimes in my experience these "spasms" actually help move stool down into a good position for easy evacuation (so maybe they arent technically spasms), but other times at least for me I get the "spasms"(call them what you will)and they just spaz and I hurt. And I have seen/felt my stomach actually do its thing. I think alot of people with IBS get them. Of course if its something "new" to a person they should get things checked out. 30 years ago when my grandmother suffered with a "spastic colon" she experienced bowel "spasms". Now they know so much more about IBS but I think its correct to say that "spasms" are a big part of the "syndrome" for alot of people.


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## NancyCat (Jul 16, 1999)

Flux-I have defended you on other threads, I do feel you have some good things to say but in this instance I have to disagree. I have IBS and spasms and the pain associated with them and in my experience and loads of others thats whats happening, SPASMS. Maybe these sensations aren't "technically" spasms, but many of us with IBS get them, feel them and I would imagine that the reason might have something to do with the brain-gut thing and how we feel things more than "normal" people. Sometimes in my experience these "spasms" actually help move stool down into a good position for easy evacuation (so maybe they arent technically spasms), but other times at least for me I get the "spasms"(call them what you will)and they just spaz and I hurt. And I have seen/felt my stomach actually do its thing. I think alot of people with IBS get them. Of course if its something "new" to a person they should get things checked out. 30 years ago when my grandmother suffered with a "spastic colon" she experienced bowel "spasms". Now they know so much more about IBS but I think its correct to say that "spasms" are a big part of the "syndrome" for alot of people.


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## goofygut (Jan 22, 2004)

Dear Jools,So sorry to hear you're not feeling at all well. You know your body and what is "normal" for you better than anyone (including your doctor). If you suspect that anything is "just not right", please contact your doctor. Maybe just a little "over the phone" reassurance could be all you need.I'm sorry you've had to experience some unnecessary trivia to try to find support and comfort. In the meantime, know that you and your symptoms are important to the majority of your IBS community. For some of us, though we cannot or choose not to offer advice, we do care, will pray and always listen.Be encouraged. A bad day doesn't mean a bad week; a bad week doesn't mean a bad month. This will pass..honestly. If you're in any way scared or "uneasy", please call your doc. Just hearing a knowledgeable person confirm you are "okay" but must cope is all it takes. Please don't allow yourself to get to anxious about it. It will just get worse.Take care..and know that there are those who do!!


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## goofygut (Jan 22, 2004)

Dear Jools,So sorry to hear you're not feeling at all well. You know your body and what is "normal" for you better than anyone (including your doctor). If you suspect that anything is "just not right", please contact your doctor. Maybe just a little "over the phone" reassurance could be all you need.I'm sorry you've had to experience some unnecessary trivia to try to find support and comfort. In the meantime, know that you and your symptoms are important to the majority of your IBS community. For some of us, though we cannot or choose not to offer advice, we do care, will pray and always listen.Be encouraged. A bad day doesn't mean a bad week; a bad week doesn't mean a bad month. This will pass..honestly. If you're in any way scared or "uneasy", please call your doc. Just hearing a knowledgeable person confirm you are "okay" but must cope is all it takes. Please don't allow yourself to get to anxious about it. It will just get worse.Take care..and know that there are those who do!!


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## Jen80 (Oct 1, 2004)

I am very new to this, does anyone know of any meds that work for the extremley bad stomach pains before the d comes?


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## Jen80 (Oct 1, 2004)

I am very new to this, does anyone know of any meds that work for the extremley bad stomach pains before the d comes?


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

For some people antispasmodics work. If it is occasional get a sublingual version to take just when you have an attack. If you get this like several times a day, then you might want a time-released version.--this you will need to get a prescription for from the doctorFor some people peppermint tea, enteric coated capsules, or even Altoids, peppermint ones, can help. It is an herbal antispasmodic.For some people antidepressants can reduce the transmission of pain. Non drug means of doing this include Hypno and Cognitive Behavioral Therapies.Some people get good results with 1-2 Imodium pills 2 times a day (morning and night).K.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

For some people antispasmodics work. If it is occasional get a sublingual version to take just when you have an attack. If you get this like several times a day, then you might want a time-released version.--this you will need to get a prescription for from the doctorFor some people peppermint tea, enteric coated capsules, or even Altoids, peppermint ones, can help. It is an herbal antispasmodic.For some people antidepressants can reduce the transmission of pain. Non drug means of doing this include Hypno and Cognitive Behavioral Therapies.Some people get good results with 1-2 Imodium pills 2 times a day (morning and night).K.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

PS...avoiding triggers can help as well.Fatty/greasy/fried foods.Foods with sugar alcohols in themHigh fructose corn syrup.High stress situations.But only if you can figure out your triggers.K.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

PS...avoiding triggers can help as well.Fatty/greasy/fried foods.Foods with sugar alcohols in themHigh fructose corn syrup.High stress situations.But only if you can figure out your triggers.K.


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## Jen80 (Oct 1, 2004)

Thank you for your info...I work for an airline and it is a very high stressed job, work is extremely hard for me, i have to take a shuttle bus into the airport and wait in the parking lot for a bus, which there are no restrooms, i have used all of my sick time up, this is truely taking over my life! I try imodium but it don't seem to help. I'll try the peppermints, where do u find peppermint tea?


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## Jen80 (Oct 1, 2004)

Thank you for your info...I work for an airline and it is a very high stressed job, work is extremely hard for me, i have to take a shuttle bus into the airport and wait in the parking lot for a bus, which there are no restrooms, i have used all of my sick time up, this is truely taking over my life! I try imodium but it don't seem to help. I'll try the peppermints, where do u find peppermint tea?


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

flux wrote:


> quote: It's not clear to me what it would mean for a smooth muscle such as the colon to go into spasm.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

flux wrote:


> quote: It's not clear to me what it would mean for a smooth muscle such as the colon to go into spasm.


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## Sam Wilson (Sep 27, 2004)

Hi Jools,I have just been prescribed buscopan and found they didnt work, only imodium work with me, they stop you having D and stop the contractions in the bowel, try reading ibs sites on what and whatnot to eat, cut out fats, tea, coffee, alcohol, fizzy drinks, rich sauces etc, see if it helps the spasms.I have tried many anti spasm pills, but imodium are the best, unless your Constipated.Al the best, let me know if you try and imodium and the results.Thanks, Sam.


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## Sam Wilson (Sep 27, 2004)

Hi Jools,I have just been prescribed buscopan and found they didnt work, only imodium work with me, they stop you having D and stop the contractions in the bowel, try reading ibs sites on what and whatnot to eat, cut out fats, tea, coffee, alcohol, fizzy drinks, rich sauces etc, see if it helps the spasms.I have tried many anti spasm pills, but imodium are the best, unless your Constipated.Al the best, let me know if you try and imodium and the results.Thanks, Sam.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Maybe these sensations aren't "technically" spasms,


What do you mean by "sensations"? According to everyone so far, pain seems to be the sole manifestation of a spasm.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Maybe these sensations aren't "technically" spasms,


What do you mean by "sensations"? According to everyone so far, pain seems to be the sole manifestation of a spasm.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

flux,pain was definitely part of it but there was also the experience of extreme uncomfortableness.there were times when the pain was not so bad but the colon would still be doing somersaults. not very fun when you are out on a date or for that matter just sitting around doing nothing.i see that you are very confused on the whole subject so i will see if i can find you some links to read.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

flux,pain was definitely part of it but there was also the experience of extreme uncomfortableness.there were times when the pain was not so bad but the colon would still be doing somersaults. not very fun when you are out on a date or for that matter just sitting around doing nothing.i see that you are very confused on the whole subject so i will see if i can find you some links to read.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

flux wrote:


> quote: Spasm is a nebulous term


Huh?


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

flux wrote:


> quote: Spasm is a nebulous term


Huh?


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Flux







,i can send you a sample of Dicetel at you to see the drawing who show the spasms on the box.







Also i heard that a spasms is caused by the fact that the water running away from the bowel creating a spasms.The bowel shrink on himself.Trapped gas can also gives a feeling of spasms.


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Flux







,i can send you a sample of Dicetel at you to see the drawing who show the spasms on the box.







Also i heard that a spasms is caused by the fact that the water running away from the bowel creating a spasms.The bowel shrink on himself.Trapped gas can also gives a feeling of spasms.


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## captaincolon (Jul 6, 2004)

> quote:Flux wrote:The way I remember it, healthy people had 3 and the IBSers had 8.


Which study was that? Regardless, the number of peristaltic contractions in IBSers was still significantly higher than in the healthy volunteers. But Flux, you forgot to comment on the most pertinent part of the study I posted earlier, where the Hopkins team put in "tiny pressure transducers that recorded the pressure of the muscles lining their colon" and:


> quote:The researchers found that many IBS patients have disorganized and significantly more vigorous contractions. The muscles tend to spasm. "There's a more prolonged contraction, over a larger area," says Schuster. "It's like having a Charlie horse in the gut."


ref: Bowels in an Uproar Article So Flux, would you care to comment now on these SPASMS that were discovered with test instruments in the colons of IBS patients? (Spasms you seem to claim aren't there.)To k*:If I recall correctly, someone here was wondering some time ago if Flux even actually had IBS. Did that question ever get answered, do you know? Maybe Flux only ever had a bad gas problem, and not IBS? I can't help but think that he can't possibly have ever experienced those horrid waves of abdominal cramps that can make an IBS patient double over (likely due, I think, to the "significantly more vigorous contractions" in the colons of IBSers found in the Hopkins study that are like a "Charlie horse in the gut", according to Schuster). ref: Infamous Gassy Guy Flux Link-Captain Colon


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## captaincolon (Jul 6, 2004)

> quote:Flux wrote:The way I remember it, healthy people had 3 and the IBSers had 8.


Which study was that? Regardless, the number of peristaltic contractions in IBSers was still significantly higher than in the healthy volunteers. But Flux, you forgot to comment on the most pertinent part of the study I posted earlier, where the Hopkins team put in "tiny pressure transducers that recorded the pressure of the muscles lining their colon" and:


> quote:The researchers found that many IBS patients have disorganized and significantly more vigorous contractions. The muscles tend to spasm. "There's a more prolonged contraction, over a larger area," says Schuster. "It's like having a Charlie horse in the gut."


ref: Bowels in an Uproar Article So Flux, would you care to comment now on these SPASMS that were discovered with test instruments in the colons of IBS patients? (Spasms you seem to claim aren't there.)To k*:If I recall correctly, someone here was wondering some time ago if Flux even actually had IBS. Did that question ever get answered, do you know? Maybe Flux only ever had a bad gas problem, and not IBS? I can't help but think that he can't possibly have ever experienced those horrid waves of abdominal cramps that can make an IBS patient double over (likely due, I think, to the "significantly more vigorous contractions" in the colons of IBSers found in the Hopkins study that are like a "Charlie horse in the gut", according to Schuster). ref: Infamous Gassy Guy Flux Link-Captain Colon


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Which study was that? Regardless, the number of peristaltic contractions in IBSers was still significantly higher than in the healthy volunteers


The one you are referring to.


> quote:The researchers found that many IBS patients have disorganized and significantly more vigorous contractions


I recall the contractions were identical to the healthy group, but this is only my recollection.


> quote:you care to comment now on these SPASMS that were discovered with test instruments in the colons of IBS patients?


I don't recall this either. Don't believe everything you read.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Which study was that? Regardless, the number of peristaltic contractions in IBSers was still significantly higher than in the healthy volunteers


The one you are referring to.


> quote:The researchers found that many IBS patients have disorganized and significantly more vigorous contractions


I recall the contractions were identical to the healthy group, but this is only my recollection.


> quote:you care to comment now on these SPASMS that were discovered with test instruments in the colons of IBS patients?


I don't recall this either. Don't believe everything you read.


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## captaincolon (Jul 6, 2004)

> quote:Flux wrote: I recall the contractions were identical to the healthy group, but this is only my recollection.and,I don't recall this either. Don't believe everything you read.


I think the obvious and far better advice would be don't believe anything YOU write.







Of course you could always attempt to resurect your shattered crediblity by posting the link to this study where you read that "the contractions were identical to the healthy group". But let me guess - you "don't recall" that link either.







No offense Flux, but for now I think I'll stick to believing the article in Johns Hopkins Magazine, about the study by Marvin Schuster, chief of gastroenterology at Johns Hopkins Bayview Medical Center. I hope you understand. Oh, and one more thing - one GI I saw reported on my colonoscopy report that my colon was "extremely long and spastic". He saw it with his own eyes!-Captain Colon


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## captaincolon (Jul 6, 2004)

> quote:Flux wrote: I recall the contractions were identical to the healthy group, but this is only my recollection.and,I don't recall this either. Don't believe everything you read.


I think the obvious and far better advice would be don't believe anything YOU write.







Of course you could always attempt to resurect your shattered crediblity by posting the link to this study where you read that "the contractions were identical to the healthy group". But let me guess - you "don't recall" that link either.







No offense Flux, but for now I think I'll stick to believing the article in Johns Hopkins Magazine, about the study by Marvin Schuster, chief of gastroenterology at Johns Hopkins Bayview Medical Center. I hope you understand. Oh, and one more thing - one GI I saw reported on my colonoscopy report that my colon was "extremely long and spastic". He saw it with his own eyes!-Captain Colon


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

Well, I dug them out...They are two articles (not online anywhere)


> quote:Crowell MD, Whitehead WE, Cheskin LJ, Schuster MM.Twenty four hour ambulatory monitoring of peristaltic activity from the colon in normal and constipation-predominant IBS patients.Gastroenterology 1989;96:A103.





> quote:Bassotti G, Betti C, Erbella GS, Crowell MD, Whitehead WE, Pelli MA. et al. Colonic mass movements in diarrhea-predominant IBS patients.Gastroenterology 1990, 98:A326.


It turns out that constipation-predominent IBS, there are way fewer high-amplitude propagated contractions (HAPC). This is no surprise.*But in diarrhea-predominant IBS, the number of HAPCs are the same and the amplitude of contractions is less*!So where are those spasms? Maybe hiding out with the weapons of mass destruction









> quote:Marvin Schuster, chief of gastroenterology at Johns Hopkins Bayview Medical Center.


So does mean you agree there never were any spasms?


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

Well, I dug them out...They are two articles (not online anywhere)


> quote:Crowell MD, Whitehead WE, Cheskin LJ, Schuster MM.Twenty four hour ambulatory monitoring of peristaltic activity from the colon in normal and constipation-predominant IBS patients.Gastroenterology 1989;96:A103.





> quote:Bassotti G, Betti C, Erbella GS, Crowell MD, Whitehead WE, Pelli MA. et al. Colonic mass movements in diarrhea-predominant IBS patients.Gastroenterology 1990, 98:A326.


It turns out that constipation-predominent IBS, there are way fewer high-amplitude propagated contractions (HAPC). This is no surprise.*But in diarrhea-predominant IBS, the number of HAPCs are the same and the amplitude of contractions is less*!So where are those spasms? Maybe hiding out with the weapons of mass destruction









> quote:Marvin Schuster, chief of gastroenterology at Johns Hopkins Bayview Medical Center.


So does mean you agree there never were any spasms?


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:LaPlace's Law, the tension in the wall of a cylinder is inversely proportional to the cylinder's diameter. Thus, fiber, which gently stretches the bowel wall, actually decreases the tension in the bowel, says Schuster


This is a quote from the same article and it's wrong. Increasing the bowel wall diameter *increases* the tension. But Dr. Schuster actually did say it (I'm not so sure about the Charley horse quote since that clearly contradicts what he discovered.)


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:LaPlace's Law, the tension in the wall of a cylinder is inversely proportional to the cylinder's diameter. Thus, fiber, which gently stretches the bowel wall, actually decreases the tension in the bowel, says Schuster


This is a quote from the same article and it's wrong. Increasing the bowel wall diameter *increases* the tension. But Dr. Schuster actually did say it (I'm not so sure about the Charley horse quote since that clearly contradicts what he discovered.)


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## captaincolon (Jul 6, 2004)

> quote:Flux wrote:But in diarrhea-predominant IBS, the number of HAPCs are the same and the amplitude of contractions is less!So where are those spasms? Maybe hiding out with the weapons of mass destruction


Interesting! But it makes me wonder how they can have much diarrhea with only the same number of HAPCs, with less amplitude, compared to normal. Schuster's study found the contractions were significantly higher in the diarrhea-predominant IBSers, which makes more sense. And that's mentioned in this IBS article, also:


> quote:Increased fasting colonic contraction and rapid transit in the proximal colon has been linked to diarrhea while reduction in high amplitude propagated contractions in the left colon has been associated with constipation.


ref: Journal of the American Academy of General Physicians It's a shame I can't read any of the actual text of the studies you mentioned, I like verification. So how did they measure the contractions in those studies? Schuster's volunteers "wore tiny pressure transducers that recorded the pressure of the muscles lining their colon and rectum. Recordings were made over a 24-hour period, while volunteers went about their normal daily routines." Did the studies you're referring to use a similar technique? Perhaps Schuster's method was more accurate?


> quote:Flux wrote: So does mean you agree there never were any spasms?


Absolutely not! There are so many references to spasms in IBS literature that you're going to have to do a lot better than provide the titles of 2 studies which you claim are opposing to convince me otherwise. And you'll also have to convince me that my GI doctor was blind (or lying) when he looked in my colon and said he saw spasms!







(And my IBS is more the constipation type, with occasional D.)-Captain Colon


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## captaincolon (Jul 6, 2004)

> quote:Flux wrote:But in diarrhea-predominant IBS, the number of HAPCs are the same and the amplitude of contractions is less!So where are those spasms? Maybe hiding out with the weapons of mass destruction


Interesting! But it makes me wonder how they can have much diarrhea with only the same number of HAPCs, with less amplitude, compared to normal. Schuster's study found the contractions were significantly higher in the diarrhea-predominant IBSers, which makes more sense. And that's mentioned in this IBS article, also:


> quote:Increased fasting colonic contraction and rapid transit in the proximal colon has been linked to diarrhea while reduction in high amplitude propagated contractions in the left colon has been associated with constipation.


ref: Journal of the American Academy of General Physicians It's a shame I can't read any of the actual text of the studies you mentioned, I like verification. So how did they measure the contractions in those studies? Schuster's volunteers "wore tiny pressure transducers that recorded the pressure of the muscles lining their colon and rectum. Recordings were made over a 24-hour period, while volunteers went about their normal daily routines." Did the studies you're referring to use a similar technique? Perhaps Schuster's method was more accurate?


> quote:Flux wrote: So does mean you agree there never were any spasms?


Absolutely not! There are so many references to spasms in IBS literature that you're going to have to do a lot better than provide the titles of 2 studies which you claim are opposing to convince me otherwise. And you'll also have to convince me that my GI doctor was blind (or lying) when he looked in my colon and said he saw spasms!







(And my IBS is more the constipation type, with occasional D.)-Captain Colon


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## missC (Oct 16, 2002)

"They are two articles (not online anywhere)"How extremely convenient. Lying ..............?Hahah, Fluxy, you see I have picked up one of your 'ingenious' tricks! I want to play too: everybody look at me, see I am very important!They also seem kind of outdated, bud. What was the date on your study again, Captain C?Damn! Got lured in to actually wasting time on old Fluxles again! Next thing you know I'll be actually bothering to follow the tenuous threads of his blatherings, maybe even flipping open a journal to dispute a point ...... HA HA, no wait a minute, that'll never happen! Good one Fluxy, I almost pretended to take you seriously there for a minute.


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## missC (Oct 16, 2002)

"They are two articles (not online anywhere)"How extremely convenient. Lying ..............?Hahah, Fluxy, you see I have picked up one of your 'ingenious' tricks! I want to play too: everybody look at me, see I am very important!They also seem kind of outdated, bud. What was the date on your study again, Captain C?Damn! Got lured in to actually wasting time on old Fluxles again! Next thing you know I'll be actually bothering to follow the tenuous threads of his blatherings, maybe even flipping open a journal to dispute a point ...... HA HA, no wait a minute, that'll never happen! Good one Fluxy, I almost pretended to take you seriously there for a minute.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Flux wrote:


> quote: So where are those spasms?


i agree with CC --- your credibility is SHOT.first you deny that people have gas and now you are denying the existance of spasms.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

Flux wrote:


> quote: So where are those spasms?


i agree with CC --- your credibility is SHOT.first you deny that people have gas and now you are denying the existance of spasms.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

i just want to make sure we are all on the same page here. flux, you are sticking to your guns in saying that IBSers do NOT have spasms? is that correct?


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

i just want to make sure we are all on the same page here. flux, you are sticking to your guns in saying that IBSers do NOT have spasms? is that correct?


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

> quote:Flux said "They are two articles (not online anywhere)"How extremely convenient. Lying ..............?


Um..that is a well known scientific journal. Not all of them have all the articles available on-line.Back at that age of paper a lot of them didn't have the abstracts on-line either.The citations are enough to PROVE that the articles EXIST (I mean not EVERY thing that is in every library in the world and every journal, etc. is on the internet...sigh...).ANY LIBRARY on the planet that does interlibrary loans SHOULD be able to get the articles for you.Just because it is NOT on line doesn't mean it cannot exist and what someone says about them is AUTOMATICALLY a lie.Geez...I mean I understand you don't like the guy, but this is extreme.K.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

> quote:Flux said "They are two articles (not online anywhere)"How extremely convenient. Lying ..............?


Um..that is a well known scientific journal. Not all of them have all the articles available on-line.Back at that age of paper a lot of them didn't have the abstracts on-line either.The citations are enough to PROVE that the articles EXIST (I mean not EVERY thing that is in every library in the world and every journal, etc. is on the internet...sigh...).ANY LIBRARY on the planet that does interlibrary loans SHOULD be able to get the articles for you.Just because it is NOT on line doesn't mean it cannot exist and what someone says about them is AUTOMATICALLY a lie.Geez...I mean I understand you don't like the guy, but this is extreme.K.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Here is an interesting definition of spasm in an article posted by ibsulcerandmore"Intense prolonged, spastic contractions of the colon occur in IBS. When two parts of the colon go into contraction, the colon in between becomes stretched out like a balloon. As a result the abdomen will feel bloated or distended." http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php...ic;f=1;t=039352 I think people might feel pain in the two parts experiencing a contraction and distension between the two parts.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Here is an interesting definition of spasm in an article posted by ibsulcerandmore"Intense prolonged, spastic contractions of the colon occur in IBS. When two parts of the colon go into contraction, the colon in between becomes stretched out like a balloon. As a result the abdomen will feel bloated or distended." http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php...ic;f=1;t=039352 I think people might feel pain in the two parts experiencing a contraction and distension between the two parts.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: Schuster's study found the contractions were significantly higher in the diarrhea-predominant IBSers, which makes more sense. A


*False.* He found the same number of HAPCS and *less* amplitude in the study I referenced above.In a third and older study, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...st_uids=7379673 he looked at rectosigmoid activity and found that both slow and fast contractions were more frequent when that area was manually stimulated. Nothing about the contractions were "higher".It's true that the HAPC study findings were a surprise, but that was looking at the gut during a fasted, unprovoked state. When something distends the rectum, that's when the IBSer has more frequent contractions. Eric has posted a number of times a graph showing this.


> quote:Recordings were made over a 24-hour period, while volunteers went about their normal daily routines." Did the studies you're referring to use a similar technique? Perhaps Schuster's method was more accurate?
> 
> 
> > quote:hat was the date on your study again, Captain C?


We are talking about the *same and only* studies. The author of the magazine got it all backwards.For example,


> quote:The researchers found that many IBS patients have disorganized and significantly more vigorous contractions. T


This describes pseudo-obstruction, not IBS. I am guessing he talked about pseudo-obstruction in the interview with the author Melissa Hendricks and she got the two confused.I don't know where she got


> quote: and volunteers who frequently had diarrhea had as many as 25 peristaltic contractions per day.


from.


> quote: There are so many references to spasms in IBS literature


Can you find any?


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: Schuster's study found the contractions were significantly higher in the diarrhea-predominant IBSers, which makes more sense. A


*False.* He found the same number of HAPCS and *less* amplitude in the study I referenced above.In a third and older study, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...st_uids=7379673 he looked at rectosigmoid activity and found that both slow and fast contractions were more frequent when that area was manually stimulated. Nothing about the contractions were "higher".It's true that the HAPC study findings were a surprise, but that was looking at the gut during a fasted, unprovoked state. When something distends the rectum, that's when the IBSer has more frequent contractions. Eric has posted a number of times a graph showing this.


> quote:Recordings were made over a 24-hour period, while volunteers went about their normal daily routines." Did the studies you're referring to use a similar technique? Perhaps Schuster's method was more accurate?
> 
> 
> > quote:hat was the date on your study again, Captain C?


We are talking about the *same and only* studies. The author of the magazine got it all backwards.For example,


> quote:The researchers found that many IBS patients have disorganized and significantly more vigorous contractions. T


This describes pseudo-obstruction, not IBS. I am guessing he talked about pseudo-obstruction in the interview with the author Melissa Hendricks and she got the two confused.I don't know where she got


> quote: and volunteers who frequently had diarrhea had as many as 25 peristaltic contractions per day.


from.


> quote: There are so many references to spasms in IBS literature


Can you find any?


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/i/irritable_...me/symptoms.htm Does list "bowel Spasms" as a symptom.That is one place that would make you think they exist







....at least a fair amount of the time they have good info there http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/ibs/


> quote:The normal motility of the colon may not work properly. It can be spasmodic or can even stop temporarily. Spasms are sudden strong muscle contractions that come and go.


Even the NIH tells people they may be having spasms.Now it may not be studies where they measure spasms, but a fair amount of medical lit on spasms uses THAT word. Most of them do seem to be older literature that has that word in the abstract...but there is even this one in, Digestion. 2003;67(1-2):14-9 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=12743435 "Compared to the group without abdominal complaints significantly more subjects with IBS had spasms of the colon "Now I agree that there probably is not a good way to know what the pain someone feels is. Most of the time it gets called a "spasm" or "gas" when there is no way to know for sure what is the source of the pain. And IBSers often have pain from what appears to be normal sensations.What I call spasms (whatever they really are) is a sharp localized area of pain. Usually they are in only a few different locations...as opposed to generalized achiness. And these are what antispasmodics actully help me with.K.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/i/irritable_...me/symptoms.htm Does list "bowel Spasms" as a symptom.That is one place that would make you think they exist







....at least a fair amount of the time they have good info there http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/ibs/


> quote:The normal motility of the colon may not work properly. It can be spasmodic or can even stop temporarily. Spasms are sudden strong muscle contractions that come and go.


Even the NIH tells people they may be having spasms.Now it may not be studies where they measure spasms, but a fair amount of medical lit on spasms uses THAT word. Most of them do seem to be older literature that has that word in the abstract...but there is even this one in, Digestion. 2003;67(1-2):14-9 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=12743435 "Compared to the group without abdominal complaints significantly more subjects with IBS had spasms of the colon "Now I agree that there probably is not a good way to know what the pain someone feels is. Most of the time it gets called a "spasm" or "gas" when there is no way to know for sure what is the source of the pain. And IBSers often have pain from what appears to be normal sensations.What I call spasms (whatever they really are) is a sharp localized area of pain. Usually they are in only a few different locations...as opposed to generalized achiness. And these are what antispasmodics actully help me with.K.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

I'm not making any claims of the accuracy of any of the information, but even you have to admit that sometimes on some webpages and in some medical journals people do utter IBS and Spasms in the same breath







K.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

I'm not making any claims of the accuracy of any of the information, but even you have to admit that sometimes on some webpages and in some medical journals people do utter IBS and Spasms in the same breath







K.


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## NancyCat (Jul 16, 1999)

I stand by saying that I do experience "spasms" and that I do get "gas". I really don't care if TECHNICALLY they aren't termed "spasms" or "gas" by scientists. These SPASMS and GAS are/is REAL. I know this, my Dr knows this, I don't care about what anyone else thinks.


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## NancyCat (Jul 16, 1999)

I stand by saying that I do experience "spasms" and that I do get "gas". I really don't care if TECHNICALLY they aren't termed "spasms" or "gas" by scientists. These SPASMS and GAS are/is REAL. I know this, my Dr knows this, I don't care about what anyone else thinks.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

i'm with you nancy! i know that i used to get spasms. i could feel and see my gut twisting up. i could actually watch my abdomen shaking.okay, now that kmottus is saying that spasms exist it is official.flux you have a lot of...


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

i'm with you nancy! i know that i used to get spasms. i could feel and see my gut twisting up. i could actually watch my abdomen shaking.okay, now that kmottus is saying that spasms exist it is official.flux you have a lot of...


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

I DID NOT SAY THEY EXISTED OR IT IS OFFICIAL.I said that the WORD is used in literature regarding IBS.I also described what I CALL spasms because that WORD describes the experience which MAY NOT be the biological reality.SIGH.K.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

I DID NOT SAY THEY EXISTED OR IT IS OFFICIAL.I said that the WORD is used in literature regarding IBS.I also described what I CALL spasms because that WORD describes the experience which MAY NOT be the biological reality.SIGH.K.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

trust me, spasms exist, and boy do they ever cause us trouble. not only do they hurt but they are uncomfortable as well.i said that my abdomen used to shake. if i remember correctly it was closer to a quiver.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

trust me, spasms exist, and boy do they ever cause us trouble. not only do they hurt but they are uncomfortable as well.i said that my abdomen used to shake. if i remember correctly it was closer to a quiver.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

i'm skinny so they were easy to see.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

i'm skinny so they were easy to see.


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## missC (Oct 16, 2002)

Aw kmottus, now how many million trillion times do I have to tell you, if you will just insist on being SENSIBLE then you're going to spoil ALL the fun.....Sidenote: if you weren't picking up on it, the 'ingenious' trick of Flux's I was copying, was that of calling somebody a liar - except, hey, if you put a question mark at the end it doesn't count and nobody can pick you up on it! Not if you're called Flux, anyway, it seems.... you certainly didn't do so, when he was trying it out on me, kmottus. one rule for one person, and......


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## missC (Oct 16, 2002)

Aw kmottus, now how many million trillion times do I have to tell you, if you will just insist on being SENSIBLE then you're going to spoil ALL the fun.....Sidenote: if you weren't picking up on it, the 'ingenious' trick of Flux's I was copying, was that of calling somebody a liar - except, hey, if you put a question mark at the end it doesn't count and nobody can pick you up on it! Not if you're called Flux, anyway, it seems.... you certainly didn't do so, when he was trying it out on me, kmottus. one rule for one person, and......


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## missC (Oct 16, 2002)

plus, c'mon luv, anybody can fake a citation. that's not hard. sure, anybody can then go track it down and prove it's a fake, or doesn't contain what it's alleged to contain ... if they really feel like it. do i really only speak for myself when i say that building a stinky cheese model of Chester-le-Street seems a more useful way to spend my time than chasing up anything referred to by Flux?that's not to say he faked it or didn't - could i care less, i was amusing myself messing with him purely. in fact, if the articles are for real, then how much sadder is it that he found a need to track them down on a musty old shelf of bound journals, just to be right and seen to be so, rather than to contribute anything either compassionate or truly helpful for a suffering board member.


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## missC (Oct 16, 2002)

plus, c'mon luv, anybody can fake a citation. that's not hard. sure, anybody can then go track it down and prove it's a fake, or doesn't contain what it's alleged to contain ... if they really feel like it. do i really only speak for myself when i say that building a stinky cheese model of Chester-le-Street seems a more useful way to spend my time than chasing up anything referred to by Flux?that's not to say he faked it or didn't - could i care less, i was amusing myself messing with him purely. in fact, if the articles are for real, then how much sadder is it that he found a need to track them down on a musty old shelf of bound journals, just to be right and seen to be so, rather than to contribute anything either compassionate or truly helpful for a suffering board member.


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## missC (Oct 16, 2002)

but don't worry hon, you're not the only one who's too timid to confront Fluxles about stuff she happily takes others to task for. I had problems with UKNikki that way too.


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## missC (Oct 16, 2002)

but don't worry hon, you're not the only one who's too timid to confront Fluxles about stuff she happily takes others to task for. I had problems with UKNikki that way too.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Hey missy I haven't seen you offering compassion to anyone either. And BTW flux's point is that not that spasms don't exist but how can one tell that one is having spasms. How does it differ from other kinds of pain if pain is the only manifestation.I think like krislynn said on another thread tha it is feeling waves of contractions. The wave sensation if it wre to be explained further, you would feel contractions followed by distensions happening as these contractions move along the tract


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Hey missy I haven't seen you offering compassion to anyone either. And BTW flux's point is that not that spasms don't exist but how can one tell that one is having spasms. How does it differ from other kinds of pain if pain is the only manifestation.I think like krislynn said on another thread tha it is feeling waves of contractions. The wave sensation if it wre to be explained further, you would feel contractions followed by distensions happening as these contractions move along the tract


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

How do i know i have spasms?1-Simple,i can feel the trapped gas.2-I can reach the bones behind the bowel with my finger when the spasms shrink the bowel.







Flux,if you want to gain "credibility",stop asking -how do you know you have spasms.An "expert" don't ask these questions.Follow the Dr.D advices.


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

How do i know i have spasms?1-Simple,i can feel the trapped gas.2-I can reach the bones behind the bowel with my finger when the spasms shrink the bowel.







Flux,if you want to gain "credibility",stop asking -how do you know you have spasms.An "expert" don't ask these questions.Follow the Dr.D advices.


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## captaincolon (Jul 6, 2004)

> quote:Captain Colon wrote:"Schuster's study found the contractions were significantly higher in the diarrhea-predominant IBSers, which makes more sense."-----Flux wrote:"False. He found the same number of HAPCS and less amplitude in the study I referenced above."and,"We are talking about the same and only studies."


Are you sure about that last point? I don't even see Schuster's name mentioned in the info you provided for the study about diarrhea-predominant IBS. Is he mentioned in the study itself? I'm tending to think now that this study you're talking about, and Schuster's study discussed in the Johns Hopkins Magazine article that I was talking about are not the same, despite your claim to the contrary. Particularly because you now reveal "It's true that the HAPC study findings were a surprise, but that was looking at the gut during a fasted, unprovoked state." Well, no wonder the HAPCs weren't greater in the IBSers, with the measurements taken in a "fasted, unprovoked state". But in the study I was talking about that doesn't appear to be the case - the researchers went to some length to measure the behaviour of the colon in everyday, "real world" situations, with the volunteers wearing colon pressure transducers for a 24 hour period, while they went about their normal daily routines. You could set the record straight now by describing the methodology used in the study you referenced - did they also use colon pressure transducers, worn over a 24 hour period, or not? If so, what are the rest of the results over the 24 hour period? If not, I tend to think the study I'm talking about was conducted sometime after yours, with superior methodology and therefore more accurate findings, which would explain the discrepancies.


> quote:Flux wrote:"..(edited)...he looked at rectosigmoid activity and found that both slow and fast contractions were more frequent when that area was manually stimulated. Nothing about the contractions were "higher".


I don't even see any mention in that 1980 study about measuring amplitude, it looks to me like they were only measuring frequency. So I'd say that study's not particularily relevant to the "spasm" thing. On the other hand, the 2001 study below DID measure both frequency and amplitude in IBS patients with abdominal pain and diarrhea, and also took the pain factor into account. Here are the basic results:


> quote:-The motility index (MI) and number of high amplitude propagating contractions (HAPCs) in 10 IBS patients were compared with those of 10 controls. HAPCs were correlated with abdominal pain, and colon transit time using radio-opaque markers was determined.-The MI and mean number and peak amplitude of HAPCs in IBS patients were significantly greater than in controls. These abnormalities paralleled markedly shortened colonic transit time. Abdominal pain coincided with >90% of HAPCs.-CONCLUSIONS: The dysmotility in this subset of IBS patients was characterized by significantly increased occurrences of powerful HAPCs that paralleled rapid colon transit and were accompanied by abdominal pain. Thus, it is suggested that this powerful contraction is one of the causes of abdominal pain


ref: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=11374689 I hope this at least starts to put to rest your silly argument Flux!Thanks to Kmottus for the links mentioning IBS and spasms. And also Flux, have you ever heard of that old term for IBS, "Spastic Colon"? Oh wait, now you're going to tell me that they later discovered there weren't any spasms after all, so they changed it to IBS, right?







And Flux, I'm still wondering - have you ever actually been diagnosed with IBS, or are you just here out of compassion to help people out?







-Captain Colon


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## captaincolon (Jul 6, 2004)

> quote:Captain Colon wrote:"Schuster's study found the contractions were significantly higher in the diarrhea-predominant IBSers, which makes more sense."-----Flux wrote:"False. He found the same number of HAPCS and less amplitude in the study I referenced above."and,"We are talking about the same and only studies."


Are you sure about that last point? I don't even see Schuster's name mentioned in the info you provided for the study about diarrhea-predominant IBS. Is he mentioned in the study itself? I'm tending to think now that this study you're talking about, and Schuster's study discussed in the Johns Hopkins Magazine article that I was talking about are not the same, despite your claim to the contrary. Particularly because you now reveal "It's true that the HAPC study findings were a surprise, but that was looking at the gut during a fasted, unprovoked state." Well, no wonder the HAPCs weren't greater in the IBSers, with the measurements taken in a "fasted, unprovoked state". But in the study I was talking about that doesn't appear to be the case - the researchers went to some length to measure the behaviour of the colon in everyday, "real world" situations, with the volunteers wearing colon pressure transducers for a 24 hour period, while they went about their normal daily routines. You could set the record straight now by describing the methodology used in the study you referenced - did they also use colon pressure transducers, worn over a 24 hour period, or not? If so, what are the rest of the results over the 24 hour period? If not, I tend to think the study I'm talking about was conducted sometime after yours, with superior methodology and therefore more accurate findings, which would explain the discrepancies.


> quote:Flux wrote:"..(edited)...he looked at rectosigmoid activity and found that both slow and fast contractions were more frequent when that area was manually stimulated. Nothing about the contractions were "higher".


I don't even see any mention in that 1980 study about measuring amplitude, it looks to me like they were only measuring frequency. So I'd say that study's not particularily relevant to the "spasm" thing. On the other hand, the 2001 study below DID measure both frequency and amplitude in IBS patients with abdominal pain and diarrhea, and also took the pain factor into account. Here are the basic results:


> quote:-The motility index (MI) and number of high amplitude propagating contractions (HAPCs) in 10 IBS patients were compared with those of 10 controls. HAPCs were correlated with abdominal pain, and colon transit time using radio-opaque markers was determined.-The MI and mean number and peak amplitude of HAPCs in IBS patients were significantly greater than in controls. These abnormalities paralleled markedly shortened colonic transit time. Abdominal pain coincided with >90% of HAPCs.-CONCLUSIONS: The dysmotility in this subset of IBS patients was characterized by significantly increased occurrences of powerful HAPCs that paralleled rapid colon transit and were accompanied by abdominal pain. Thus, it is suggested that this powerful contraction is one of the causes of abdominal pain


ref: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=11374689 I hope this at least starts to put to rest your silly argument Flux!Thanks to Kmottus for the links mentioning IBS and spasms. And also Flux, have you ever heard of that old term for IBS, "Spastic Colon"? Oh wait, now you're going to tell me that they later discovered there weren't any spasms after all, so they changed it to IBS, right?







And Flux, I'm still wondering - have you ever actually been diagnosed with IBS, or are you just here out of compassion to help people out?







-Captain Colon


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## captaincolon (Jul 6, 2004)

Bonniei,Actually, Flux is insisting that spasms aren't part of IBS. For example, he earlier said to me (when discussing an IBS study he has):


> quote:So does mean you agree there never were any spasms?


And when I stated, regarding an article about an IBS study: "..would you care to comment now on these SPASMS that were discovered with test instruments in the colons of IBS patients?"He replied:


> quote: Don't believe everything you read.


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## captaincolon (Jul 6, 2004)

Bonniei,Actually, Flux is insisting that spasms aren't part of IBS. For example, he earlier said to me (when discussing an IBS study he has):


> quote:So does mean you agree there never were any spasms?


And when I stated, regarding an article about an IBS study: "..would you care to comment now on these SPASMS that were discovered with test instruments in the colons of IBS patients?"He replied:


> quote: Don't believe everything you read.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: spasms because that WORD describes the experience which MAY NOT be the biological reality.


but it IS the biological reality. spasms do exist. everyone here knows that (including their doctors). well almost everyone here knows the obvious.hi missC!always good to see you around.=========================================flux is denying the existance of spasms. he is also saying that antispaspodics work becuase they may affect "pain transmission" not muscular activity.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: spasms because that WORD describes the experience which MAY NOT be the biological reality.


but it IS the biological reality. spasms do exist. everyone here knows that (including their doctors). well almost everyone here knows the obvious.hi missC!always good to see you around.=========================================flux is denying the existance of spasms. he is also saying that antispaspodics work becuase they may affect "pain transmission" not muscular activity.


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Another exemple of Spasms for our newbies Flux.-The shape of the stools proove the existence of the spasms.The shapes can be tiny or large like a snake who digest a mouse.Do you need more evidence?


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Another exemple of Spasms for our newbies Flux.-The shape of the stools proove the existence of the spasms.The shapes can be tiny or large like a snake who digest a mouse.Do you need more evidence?


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

missC,i caught flux doing the same thing (posting some nonsense abstracts) several months ago on a thread about sinusitis and fungal hypersensitivity.i pushed the issue and discovered that the 2 journal articles had absolutely nothing to do with his point. he was just using them to make it look like he had evidence for his point which he didn't.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

missC,i caught flux doing the same thing (posting some nonsense abstracts) several months ago on a thread about sinusitis and fungal hypersensitivity.i pushed the issue and discovered that the 2 journal articles had absolutely nothing to do with his point. he was just using them to make it look like he had evidence for his point which he didn't.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: Another exemple of Spasms for our newbies Flux.-The shape of the stools proove the existence of the spasms.The shapes can be tiny or large like a snake who digest a mouse.Do you need more evidence?


Excellent point spasman!!!! excellent.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: Another exemple of Spasms for our newbies Flux.-The shape of the stools proove the existence of the spasms.The shapes can be tiny or large like a snake who digest a mouse.Do you need more evidence?


Excellent point spasman!!!! excellent.


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Also,i have read that the spasms may indicated a intestinal permeability in the area in trouble which send the WATER OUT of the bowel creating a spasm.Also,there is more evidence that the lack a motility is cause by a imbalance in the electricity modulation.See this link and comment: http://bioinformatics.weizmann.ac.il:3456/...8/b/989/pdf.pdf


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Also,i have read that the spasms may indicated a intestinal permeability in the area in trouble which send the WATER OUT of the bowel creating a spasm.Also,there is more evidence that the lack a motility is cause by a imbalance in the electricity modulation.See this link and comment: http://bioinformatics.weizmann.ac.il:3456/...8/b/989/pdf.pdf


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

altered colon contractions can cause different stool shapes.Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS): Examining New Findings and TreatmentsAuthors: Marvin M. Schuster, MD; Michael D. Crowell, PhD; Nicholas J. Talley, MD, PhD"Physiological Differences in IBS Patient SubgroupsThe gastrocolic reflex, a partly neurogenic process, refers to an increase in colonic motility induced by feeding. Postprandial deviations from the normal motility patterns lead to altered bowel habits. For example, a spastic colon (eg, diarrhea-predominant IBS [D-IBS]) is characterized by an exaggerated motility response to food intake. This exaggerated postprandial response also occurs in response to intraluminal distention or to an injection of cholecystokinin (CCK -- a hormone released in the duodenum) in patients with IBS."Graph normal humanGraph IBS " Effects of Balloon Distention on Rectosigmoid MotilitySmooth muscles in the colon can impede and/or facilitate the movement of intraluminal contents. Haustral contractions impede stool movement; high-amplitude propagating contractions (HAPCs) are sweeping propulsive motor events that are typically clustered around bowel movements. The frequency of HAPCs is increased in D-IBS. In contrast, HAPCs are fewer and segmental impeding contractions are more frequent in constipation-predominant IBS (C-IBS). In summary, C-IBS is characterized by postprandial rectal relaxation, blunted gastrocolic response, and lower rectal discomfort threshold. On the other hand, D-IBS is characterized by a postprandial increase in rectal tone, an enhanced gastrocolic response, and hypersensitivity to rectal distention." http://www.medscape.com/viewprogram/725_pnt


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

altered colon contractions can cause different stool shapes.Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS): Examining New Findings and TreatmentsAuthors: Marvin M. Schuster, MD; Michael D. Crowell, PhD; Nicholas J. Talley, MD, PhD"Physiological Differences in IBS Patient SubgroupsThe gastrocolic reflex, a partly neurogenic process, refers to an increase in colonic motility induced by feeding. Postprandial deviations from the normal motility patterns lead to altered bowel habits. For example, a spastic colon (eg, diarrhea-predominant IBS [D-IBS]) is characterized by an exaggerated motility response to food intake. This exaggerated postprandial response also occurs in response to intraluminal distention or to an injection of cholecystokinin (CCK -- a hormone released in the duodenum) in patients with IBS."Graph normal humanGraph IBS " Effects of Balloon Distention on Rectosigmoid MotilitySmooth muscles in the colon can impede and/or facilitate the movement of intraluminal contents. Haustral contractions impede stool movement; high-amplitude propagating contractions (HAPCs) are sweeping propulsive motor events that are typically clustered around bowel movements. The frequency of HAPCs is increased in D-IBS. In contrast, HAPCs are fewer and segmental impeding contractions are more frequent in constipation-predominant IBS (C-IBS). In summary, C-IBS is characterized by postprandial rectal relaxation, blunted gastrocolic response, and lower rectal discomfort threshold. On the other hand, D-IBS is characterized by a postprandial increase in rectal tone, an enhanced gastrocolic response, and hypersensitivity to rectal distention." http://www.medscape.com/viewprogram/725_pnt


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

From my buddy eric's website:


> quote:http://www.ibshealth.com/ibsfoodsinfo.htmDr Drossman..... here, normalizing the contractions of the colon (from too fast or too slow speeds) prevents the *violent and irregular spasms* that result in the lower abdominal cramping pain that cripples so many IBS patients.


hi flux







what do you think?


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

From my buddy eric's website:


> quote:http://www.ibshealth.com/ibsfoodsinfo.htmDr Drossman..... here, normalizing the contractions of the colon (from too fast or too slow speeds) prevents the *violent and irregular spasms* that result in the lower abdominal cramping pain that cripples so many IBS patients.


hi flux







what do you think?


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

What link was that off of kel?Saying spasms just may be an easier thing to say for the layman.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

What link was that off of kel?Saying spasms just may be an easier thing to say for the layman.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: What link was that off of kel?Saying spasms just may be an easier thing to say for the layman.


Oh no! Now you are going to start playing games with the word SPASM?I imagine if you search long and hard enough you can come up with some linguist somewhere who gives some contorted explanation as to why SPASM does not mean SPASM.--but for the 99.99999999% of us here----- spasm means spasm and we all know what they are.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

> quote: What link was that off of kel?Saying spasms just may be an easier thing to say for the layman.


Oh no! Now you are going to start playing games with the word SPASM?I imagine if you search long and hard enough you can come up with some linguist somewhere who gives some contorted explanation as to why SPASM does not mean SPASM.--but for the 99.99999999% of us here----- spasm means spasm and we all know what they are.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

what link did you quote dr drossman off of there Kel? Where was that qoute from?It the context of IBS and the word spasms."Spasms are sudden strong muscle contractions that come and go. "I don't personally think its worth causing this much commotion over. We basically know there can be abnormal motility in IBS.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

what link did you quote dr drossman off of there Kel? Where was that qoute from?It the context of IBS and the word spasms."Spasms are sudden strong muscle contractions that come and go. "I don't personally think its worth causing this much commotion over. We basically know there can be abnormal motility in IBS.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

You may be right, CC, that flux thinks spasms don't exist. flux if you think spasms don't exist you are dead wrong.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

You may be right, CC, that flux thinks spasms don't exist. flux if you think spasms don't exist you are dead wrong.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:I don't even see any mention in that 1980 study about measuring amplitude, it looks to me like they were only measuring frequency.


Neither do I.


> quote:On the other hand, the 2001 study below DID measure both frequency and amplitude in IBS patients with abdominal pain and diarrhea, and also took the pain factor into account. Here are the basic results


That there was an abnormal response to a meal and to CCK is well-known. The amplitudes they found sound strangely high. I don't know of any other study where such levels were recorded or could even be recorded. The pain factor was *not* taken into account. How could they have they do that? (Though they claim it conceivable the contraction itself could have caused the pain.Regardless, I don't see how this has anything to do with "spasms".


> quote:now you're going to tell me that they later discovered there weren't any spasms after all, so they changed it to IBS, right?


Correct.


> quote:The shape of the stools proove the existence of the spasms


Huh?


> quote:Saying spasms just may be an easier thing to say for the layman.


I agree. Spasms are poorly defined. And no description so far has convinced me that a person could know they are having one.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:I don't even see any mention in that 1980 study about measuring amplitude, it looks to me like they were only measuring frequency.


Neither do I.


> quote:On the other hand, the 2001 study below DID measure both frequency and amplitude in IBS patients with abdominal pain and diarrhea, and also took the pain factor into account. Here are the basic results


That there was an abnormal response to a meal and to CCK is well-known. The amplitudes they found sound strangely high. I don't know of any other study where such levels were recorded or could even be recorded. The pain factor was *not* taken into account. How could they have they do that? (Though they claim it conceivable the contraction itself could have caused the pain.Regardless, I don't see how this has anything to do with "spasms".


> quote:now you're going to tell me that they later discovered there weren't any spasms after all, so they changed it to IBS, right?


Correct.


> quote:The shape of the stools proove the existence of the spasms


Huh?


> quote:Saying spasms just may be an easier thing to say for the layman.


I agree. Spasms are poorly defined. And no description so far has convinced me that a person could know they are having one.


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## jools41 (Jan 8, 2004)

thanks to everyone who added a comment on here and im glad that some people have the intelligence to understand that spasms DO exist.i can only describe the spasms as unbearable but to our resident know it all (dr flux) ha!im more than likely making it up







as if i have nothing better to do than make up #### about my illness.like the captain i had my colon examined last month and i have been told that it IS spasms i am getting, either that or the specialist is mis-informed unlike the pain in the ass flux, do us all a favour keep your snidey comments to yourself. Do you have ibs? or are you just some joker trying to annoy people who do have ibs?


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## jools41 (Jan 8, 2004)

thanks to everyone who added a comment on here and im glad that some people have the intelligence to understand that spasms DO exist.i can only describe the spasms as unbearable but to our resident know it all (dr flux) ha!im more than likely making it up







as if i have nothing better to do than make up #### about my illness.like the captain i had my colon examined last month and i have been told that it IS spasms i am getting, either that or the specialist is mis-informed unlike the pain in the ass flux, do us all a favour keep your snidey comments to yourself. Do you have ibs? or are you just some joker trying to annoy people who do have ibs?


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Flux have some kind of IBS,he is VERY gassy like most of us.He just try to understand this insane condition in his own way.Most of his theories are questionnables.


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Flux have some kind of IBS,he is VERY gassy like most of us.He just try to understand this insane condition in his own way.Most of his theories are questionnables.


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## skinny (Jul 27, 2002)

> quote: Do you have ibs? or are you just some joker trying to annoy people who do have ibs?


jools, don't pay attention to flux. He's mostly a nuisance that's oftentimes not worth the trouble getting any useful information out of him. It's like going through a pile of turds just to find a few gold specks.Many suspect flux doesn't have IBS. He doesn't reveal anything personal in public (at least not anymore) so it's no use asking him although you might have some luck in PM or email. I highly suspect flux has/had a gas problem. There's enough evidence to make it plausible. One person from the old Parkview IBS site has confirmed it to me. He farted over 100x a day and used antibiotics to treat his gas. I also highly suspect he was the patient that was in the case study with Dr. Levitt. You can find the info here: http://www.ibsgroup.org/cgi-local/ubbcgi/u...c&f=27&t=002076 The study found out that he got his gas from the atmosphere (swallowing air). There was no solution to his problem at the end of the study. So who knows, he's probably still tooting away today.







skinny


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## skinny (Jul 27, 2002)

> quote: Do you have ibs? or are you just some joker trying to annoy people who do have ibs?


jools, don't pay attention to flux. He's mostly a nuisance that's oftentimes not worth the trouble getting any useful information out of him. It's like going through a pile of turds just to find a few gold specks.Many suspect flux doesn't have IBS. He doesn't reveal anything personal in public (at least not anymore) so it's no use asking him although you might have some luck in PM or email. I highly suspect flux has/had a gas problem. There's enough evidence to make it plausible. One person from the old Parkview IBS site has confirmed it to me. He farted over 100x a day and used antibiotics to treat his gas. I also highly suspect he was the patient that was in the case study with Dr. Levitt. You can find the info here: http://www.ibsgroup.org/cgi-local/ubbcgi/u...c&f=27&t=002076 The study found out that he got his gas from the atmosphere (swallowing air). There was no solution to his problem at the end of the study. So who knows, he's probably still tooting away today.







skinny


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Skinny,sorry you're wrong,the atmosphere theory have been rules out in the Flux case:quote-Accidental atmospheric contamination? This was ruled out. Air contains approximately 25% Oxygen, and the client's sample showed nothing like this.


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Skinny,sorry you're wrong,the atmosphere theory have been rules out in the Flux case:quote-Accidental atmospheric contamination? This was ruled out. Air contains approximately 25% Oxygen, and the client's sample showed nothing like this.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

I am not willing to comment on whether flux was the patient in the study or not. But I can set a few things straight.spasman you don't have the entire quote. It is


> quote:Accidental atmospheric contamination? This was ruled out. Air contains approximately 25% Oxygen, and the client's sample showed nothing like this.*The only remaining possibility was swallowed air, from which the oxygen would be depleted en route to the collection point*


Levitt had *two* severely flatulent patients. One was reported perhaps wrongly as lactose intolerant. The problem in his case according to flux was that he had the wrong types of bacteria.The second patient had the swallowing air problem.


> quote:And no description so far has convinced me that a person could know they are having one.


Oh I didn't know that was the purpose of this entire exercise


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

I am not willing to comment on whether flux was the patient in the study or not. But I can set a few things straight.spasman you don't have the entire quote. It is


> quote:Accidental atmospheric contamination? This was ruled out. Air contains approximately 25% Oxygen, and the client's sample showed nothing like this.*The only remaining possibility was swallowed air, from which the oxygen would be depleted en route to the collection point*


Levitt had *two* severely flatulent patients. One was reported perhaps wrongly as lactose intolerant. The problem in his case according to flux was that he had the wrong types of bacteria.The second patient had the swallowing air problem.


> quote:And no description so far has convinced me that a person could know they are having one.


Oh I didn't know that was the purpose of this entire exercise


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Quote:spasman you don't have the entire quote.







I'm so confused with the swallowing air theory that my subconscious didn't want it to be real.





















Apparently,drinking with a straw reduce dramatically the air swallowed.I remain confuse.


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Quote:spasman you don't have the entire quote.







I'm so confused with the swallowing air theory that my subconscious didn't want it to be real.





















Apparently,drinking with a straw reduce dramatically the air swallowed.I remain confuse.


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## skinny (Jul 27, 2002)

> quote:I am not willing to comment on whether flux was the patient in the study or not.


I bet you know bonnie but are not a liberty to discuss it.







(What did flux make you sign a confidentiality agreement in order to reveal the answer? I wouldn't be suprised if he did such a thing.) I'd bet $10 that it was flux. All the clues point to him. Someone told me that when flux was on the Parkview IBS site, he was asking Dr. Salt about a lot of gas related questions and that he got his gas tested by farting into cannisters. This corroborates with the commentary on the study. I can't reveal the name because this person feared they would be threatened with legal action. Nah Spas, you were confused.







The accidental atmosphere contamination could be possible with the devices used to stick up the ass and collect the gas samples. Since ~25% oxygen was not found in the samples, it must have come from air swallowing.Ya know, this is one of the reasons I say flux is mostly a nuisance. He harasses newbies with 'how do you know it's gas' and 'how do you know it's not from the atmosphere' quips when he could simply explain this in layman terms. He has the knowledge and experience with this, yet he goes on his pedantic style which annoys most people.Anyhow getting off topic here. Spasms, however you define them, they are real. I'd say regarding IBS they are unsynchronized peristalic movements that cause altered bowel motility. skinny


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## skinny (Jul 27, 2002)

> quote:I am not willing to comment on whether flux was the patient in the study or not.


I bet you know bonnie but are not a liberty to discuss it.







(What did flux make you sign a confidentiality agreement in order to reveal the answer? I wouldn't be suprised if he did such a thing.) I'd bet $10 that it was flux. All the clues point to him. Someone told me that when flux was on the Parkview IBS site, he was asking Dr. Salt about a lot of gas related questions and that he got his gas tested by farting into cannisters. This corroborates with the commentary on the study. I can't reveal the name because this person feared they would be threatened with legal action. Nah Spas, you were confused.







The accidental atmosphere contamination could be possible with the devices used to stick up the ass and collect the gas samples. Since ~25% oxygen was not found in the samples, it must have come from air swallowing.Ya know, this is one of the reasons I say flux is mostly a nuisance. He harasses newbies with 'how do you know it's gas' and 'how do you know it's not from the atmosphere' quips when he could simply explain this in layman terms. He has the knowledge and experience with this, yet he goes on his pedantic style which annoys most people.Anyhow getting off topic here. Spasms, however you define them, they are real. I'd say regarding IBS they are unsynchronized peristalic movements that cause altered bowel motility. skinny


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## kare_bear88 (May 12, 2003)

Flux, the citations you have on the previous page (from "Gastroenterology"- from 1989 and 1990) are incorrect. I also have access to this material (it is online- I get it for free because I am a graduate student), I checked to see the articles for myself and they were not there. The articles were not in the issues you mentioned, and when I did an author field search for the articles, nothing turned up matching those you mentioned from any issue of "Gastroenterology". Could you recheck your citations and post the correct ones please? Thanks


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## kare_bear88 (May 12, 2003)

Flux, the citations you have on the previous page (from "Gastroenterology"- from 1989 and 1990) are incorrect. I also have access to this material (it is online- I get it for free because I am a graduate student), I checked to see the articles for myself and they were not there. The articles were not in the issues you mentioned, and when I did an author field search for the articles, nothing turned up matching those you mentioned from any issue of "Gastroenterology". Could you recheck your citations and post the correct ones please? Thanks


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## skinny (Jul 27, 2002)

Wow, flux is fabricating citations? Good work for checking up on that kare_bare.Yes please do flux. We're really skeptical of you now.skinny.


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## skinny (Jul 27, 2002)

Wow, flux is fabricating citations? Good work for checking up on that kare_bare.Yes please do flux. We're really skeptical of you now.skinny.


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

MissC -- someone owes you an apology. Flux was just caught faking citations AGAIN!!!32 year old computer programmer. no doubt about it, it is flux.now the question is -- does flux have IBS. i thought he complained of pain. maybe not. i sure hope he has IBS, otherwise we will need to throw him out of here.good job kare_bare!!!


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## kel1059 (Feb 28, 2003)

MissC -- someone owes you an apology. Flux was just caught faking citations AGAIN!!!32 year old computer programmer. no doubt about it, it is flux.now the question is -- does flux have IBS. i thought he complained of pain. maybe not. i sure hope he has IBS, otherwise we will need to throw him out of here.good job kare_bare!!!


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Wow, flux is fabricating citations? Good work for checking up on that kare_bare.





> quote:Flux was just caught faking citations AGAIN!!!


kare_bear88, looks like they both fell for it.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Wow, flux is fabricating citations? Good work for checking up on that kare_bare.





> quote:Flux was just caught faking citations AGAIN!!!


kare_bear88, looks like they both fell for it.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

> quote:quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Crowell MD, Whitehead WE, Cheskin LJ, Schuster MM.Twenty four hour ambulatory monitoring of peristaltic activity from the colon in normal and constipation-predominant IBS patients.Gastroenterology 1989;96:*A103*.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Bassotti G, Betti C, Erbella GS, Crowell MD, Whitehead WE, Pelli MA. et al. Colonic mass movements in diarrhea-predominant IBS patients.Gastroenterology 1990, 98:*A326*


karebare, they don't show up becase they are in the Supplemental issues rather than in their regular issues. The words I have highlighted in bold implies that they are in the supplements. They are not full fledged papers but just abstracts.skinny, no comments


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

> quote:quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Crowell MD, Whitehead WE, Cheskin LJ, Schuster MM.Twenty four hour ambulatory monitoring of peristaltic activity from the colon in normal and constipation-predominant IBS patients.Gastroenterology 1989;96:*A103*.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Bassotti G, Betti C, Erbella GS, Crowell MD, Whitehead WE, Pelli MA. et al. Colonic mass movements in diarrhea-predominant IBS patients.Gastroenterology 1990, 98:*A326*


karebare, they don't show up becase they are in the Supplemental issues rather than in their regular issues. The words I have highlighted in bold implies that they are in the supplements. They are not full fledged papers but just abstracts.skinny, no comments


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## kare_bear88 (May 12, 2003)

Can you explain to me why these supplements are not archived with the rest of the journal? I'm a library and information science major, all I do is research, and I have never heard of such a thing. flux, if you have access to these abstracts, would you please either post them or let me know what database to use to find them?


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## kare_bear88 (May 12, 2003)

Can you explain to me why these supplements are not archived with the rest of the journal? I'm a library and information science major, all I do is research, and I have never heard of such a thing. flux, if you have access to these abstracts, would you please either post them or let me know what database to use to find them?


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## kare_bear88 (May 12, 2003)

They aren't listed under "special reports and reviews" in the "Gastroenterology" archive either, nor are they indexed on Medline.


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## kare_bear88 (May 12, 2003)

They aren't listed under "special reports and reviews" in the "Gastroenterology" archive either, nor are they indexed on Medline.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

karebare, I don't know if you tried searching an online database. For example I don't think the supplemental issues show up in Pubmed. If you actually went to the shelf in the library, you would find it there. BTW Gastroenterology started going online only after1996, so I don't know how you checked for these earlier abstracts online. The university through which I get access to online journals has a good database tool called Ovid and the supplemental issues are indexed there in the sense the topic shows up but not the abstracts, I think .I use the phrase "I think" because I am getting very confused between the different ways I have to access these journals so don't quote me on anything. But did you search online or did you go to the library?


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

karebare, I don't know if you tried searching an online database. For example I don't think the supplemental issues show up in Pubmed. If you actually went to the shelf in the library, you would find it there. BTW Gastroenterology started going online only after1996, so I don't know how you checked for these earlier abstracts online. The university through which I get access to online journals has a good database tool called Ovid and the supplemental issues are indexed there in the sense the topic shows up but not the abstracts, I think .I use the phrase "I think" because I am getting very confused between the different ways I have to access these journals so don't quote me on anything. But did you search online or did you go to the library?


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

For example if you go to the Gastroenterology Journal website , http://www2.gastrojournal.org/scripts/om.d...or=home&id=gast even though they have abstracts from after 1964, you can't find the supplemental issues of 1989 there


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

For example if you go to the Gastroenterology Journal website , http://www2.gastrojournal.org/scripts/om.d...or=home&id=gast even though they have abstracts from after 1964, you can't find the supplemental issues of 1989 there


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Looks like they have the Supplemental issues of 2004 and 2000 only.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Looks like they have the Supplemental issues of 2004 and 2000 only.


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## kare_bear88 (May 12, 2003)

I searched Medline using OVID- seemingly the same way you did; I could not find these articles. What search terms did you use to find these articles on OVID? You are incorrect about gastroenterology only having online materials past 1996, W. B. Saunders keeps archived abstracts of Gastroenterology going back to 1975, and table of Contents dating back to 1965.


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## kare_bear88 (May 12, 2003)

I searched Medline using OVID- seemingly the same way you did; I could not find these articles. What search terms did you use to find these articles on OVID? You are incorrect about gastroenterology only having online materials past 1996, W. B. Saunders keeps archived abstracts of Gastroenterology going back to 1975, and table of Contents dating back to 1965.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Here is the list of issues from Gastroenterology http://www2.gastrojournal.org/scripts/om.d...=gast#year-1989 I'll try putting it into Ovid and see what I come up with .


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Here is the list of issues from Gastroenterology http://www2.gastrojournal.org/scripts/om.d...=gast#year-1989 I'll try putting it into Ovid and see what I come up with .


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: flux, if you have access to these abstracts, would you please either post


Sorry, I thought you had a different angle to your post. There are various conferences where scientists submit their work for display and usually there is an associated journal that publishes the abstracts for these "posters". They may be published in separate issues as supplements or at the end of an ordinary journal issue. That depends on how many there are and the journal.Gastroenterology publishes the one for Digestive Disease Week (http://www.ddw.org), which is held every May in various different American cities.I don't think they are indexed anywhere because they are really part of the associated conference, not the journal per se. I would imagine, however, that at some point, at least some journals are probably looking into a way to add them. (I didn't know that Ovid indexed the titles.)


> quote: You are incorrect about gastroenterology only having online materials past 1996,


She means the full text.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: flux, if you have access to these abstracts, would you please either post


Sorry, I thought you had a different angle to your post. There are various conferences where scientists submit their work for display and usually there is an associated journal that publishes the abstracts for these "posters". They may be published in separate issues as supplements or at the end of an ordinary journal issue. That depends on how many there are and the journal.Gastroenterology publishes the one for Digestive Disease Week (http://www.ddw.org), which is held every May in various different American cities.I don't think they are indexed anywhere because they are really part of the associated conference, not the journal per se. I would imagine, however, that at some point, at least some journals are probably looking into a way to add them. (I didn't know that Ovid indexed the titles.)


> quote: You are incorrect about gastroenterology only having online materials past 1996,


She means the full text.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Nope it doesn't show up in Ovid. You would have to go to the library to find the. I think there are too many abstracts to index. I forget where the topics of the abstracts in these supplemental issues show up.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Nope it doesn't show up in Ovid. You would have to go to the library to find the. I think there are too many abstracts to index. I forget where the topics of the abstracts in these supplemental issues show up.


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## kare_bear88 (May 12, 2003)

I searched OVID using Crowell, neither of the articles came up


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## kare_bear88 (May 12, 2003)

I searched OVID using Crowell, neither of the articles came up


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Thanks for the explanation flux. I am sure there ios a place where these topics show up. Otherwise how did I ever go searching in the Supplements. Maybe infotrieve? Let me check that.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Thanks for the explanation flux. I am sure there ios a place where these topics show up. Otherwise how did I ever go searching in the Supplements. Maybe infotrieve? Let me check that.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Oh I checked AJG and the suplplemental issues do show up there. I don't have access to Gastroenterology so I am not sure what goes on there.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Oh I checked AJG and the suplplemental issues do show up there. I don't have access to Gastroenterology so I am not sure what goes on there.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Infotrieve- Gastroenterology Supplementals do not show up.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

Infotrieve- Gastroenterology Supplementals do not show up.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

> quote:I didn't know that Ovid indexed the titles.


Like I said , don't quote me on anyhing







. It is AJG where the supplements show up.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

> quote:I didn't know that Ovid indexed the titles.


Like I said , don't quote me on anyhing







. It is AJG where the supplements show up.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

FYIGut 1999;45(Suppl 2):II17-II24 ( September )Principles of applied neurogastroenterology: physiology/motility-sensationJ E Kellowa, M Delvauxb, F Azpirozc, M Camillerid, E M M Quigleye, D G Thompsonf"Many of the symptoms characteristic of the functional gastrointestinal disorders (FGID) are consistent with dysfunction of the motor and/or sensory apparatus of the digestive tract. Those aspects of sensorimotor dysfunction most relevant to the FGID include alterations in: gut contractile activity; myoelectrical activity; tone and compliance; and transit, as well as an enhanced sensitivity to distension, in each region of the gastrointestinal tract.""Introduction Motility of the digestive tract encompasses the phenomena of myoelectrical activity, contractile activity, tone, compliance, and transit. In the functional gastrointestinal disorders (FGID), various types of dysmotility have been documented repeatedly, and most likely reflect dysfunction at one or more levels of the brain-gut axis. Patients with FGID also exhibit sensory afferent dysfunction, manifest as an altered sensitivity to stimuli such as distension of the gut, and selectively affecting the visceral territory. "Digestive tract sensorimotor physiology and pathophysiologyBASIC CONCEPTS AND DEFINITIONS RELEVANT TO THE FGIDMotilityContractile activity and tone http://gut.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/45/suppl_2/II17 Spasms are probably used for the layman. Its easier to explain then the above information and link.spasms, contractions (and there are different kinds), alter motility, distension etc. etc..This however I believe is an important topic in how the bowel works in general and in IBS and when distended, pressure sensitve cells release neurotransmitters to intiate contractions and communicate with the brain.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

FYIGut 1999;45(Suppl 2):II17-II24 ( September )Principles of applied neurogastroenterology: physiology/motility-sensationJ E Kellowa, M Delvauxb, F Azpirozc, M Camillerid, E M M Quigleye, D G Thompsonf"Many of the symptoms characteristic of the functional gastrointestinal disorders (FGID) are consistent with dysfunction of the motor and/or sensory apparatus of the digestive tract. Those aspects of sensorimotor dysfunction most relevant to the FGID include alterations in: gut contractile activity; myoelectrical activity; tone and compliance; and transit, as well as an enhanced sensitivity to distension, in each region of the gastrointestinal tract.""Introduction Motility of the digestive tract encompasses the phenomena of myoelectrical activity, contractile activity, tone, compliance, and transit. In the functional gastrointestinal disorders (FGID), various types of dysmotility have been documented repeatedly, and most likely reflect dysfunction at one or more levels of the brain-gut axis. Patients with FGID also exhibit sensory afferent dysfunction, manifest as an altered sensitivity to stimuli such as distension of the gut, and selectively affecting the visceral territory. "Digestive tract sensorimotor physiology and pathophysiologyBASIC CONCEPTS AND DEFINITIONS RELEVANT TO THE FGIDMotilityContractile activity and tone http://gut.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/45/suppl_2/II17 Spasms are probably used for the layman. Its easier to explain then the above information and link.spasms, contractions (and there are different kinds), alter motility, distension etc. etc..This however I believe is an important topic in how the bowel works in general and in IBS and when distended, pressure sensitve cells release neurotransmitters to intiate contractions and communicate with the brain.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Ok, one thing that happens in scientific journals.They sometimes publish a whole issue of abstracts usually from the scientific meeting the organization holds.Most of the time they are not peer-reviewed and it is fairly common that those abstracts are not submitted for the Medical Lit search engines. Often the abstracts for a scientific meeting are not peer-reviewed and that issue can be part of the decision.I've seen this before quite a bit. If you PubMed Mottus You see some articles by Me (I've got a relative so there are also some that are not mine) None of my abstracts from scientific meetings when I was in grad school show up, but they exist in the hard copy of the journal as a supplemental section.K.PS..I'll check ISI when I get to work, they usually have the most complete set of references, but it isn't a free service.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Ok, one thing that happens in scientific journals.They sometimes publish a whole issue of abstracts usually from the scientific meeting the organization holds.Most of the time they are not peer-reviewed and it is fairly common that those abstracts are not submitted for the Medical Lit search engines. Often the abstracts for a scientific meeting are not peer-reviewed and that issue can be part of the decision.I've seen this before quite a bit. If you PubMed Mottus You see some articles by Me (I've got a relative so there are also some that are not mine) None of my abstracts from scientific meetings when I was in grad school show up, but they exist in the hard copy of the journal as a supplemental section.K.PS..I'll check ISI when I get to work, they usually have the most complete set of references, but it isn't a free service.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Did an ISI cited reference search.The abstracts are not listed there, but they every time they were cited in the medical literature IS recorded there (ISI does some interesting things that other lit search databases do not)Here is the abstracts that were listed for Crowell for those two years. The number at the front is the # of times the work has been cited in the scientific literature


> quote: 1 CROWELL MD GASTROENTEROLOGY 1990 98 A326 2 CROWELL MD GASTROENTEROLOGY 1990 98 A340 1 CROWELL MD GASTROENTEROLOGY 1990 98 A341 1 CROWELL MD GASTROENTEROLOGY 1990 96 A103 7 CROWELL MD GASTROENTEROLOGY 1989 96 A103 1 CROWELL MD GASTROENTEROLOGY 1989 94 A103


I think the two A103 that have just one reference are both from typos in the articles that cited them (note one has the year off, and one has the volume off...so that can do it...this is not that uncommon when doing cited ref searches).K.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Did an ISI cited reference search.The abstracts are not listed there, but they every time they were cited in the medical literature IS recorded there (ISI does some interesting things that other lit search databases do not)Here is the abstracts that were listed for Crowell for those two years. The number at the front is the # of times the work has been cited in the scientific literature


> quote: 1 CROWELL MD GASTROENTEROLOGY 1990 98 A326 2 CROWELL MD GASTROENTEROLOGY 1990 98 A340 1 CROWELL MD GASTROENTEROLOGY 1990 98 A341 1 CROWELL MD GASTROENTEROLOGY 1990 96 A103 7 CROWELL MD GASTROENTEROLOGY 1989 96 A103 1 CROWELL MD GASTROENTEROLOGY 1989 94 A103


I think the two A103 that have just one reference are both from typos in the articles that cited them (note one has the year off, and one has the volume off...so that can do it...this is not that uncommon when doing cited ref searches).K.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

This is one of the papers that cites the more heavily cited of the two abstracts. It is a review paper, and that may be part of it.I think the abstract speaks to the whole "is the pain a spasm" debate.


> quote:Role of visceral afferent mechanisms in functional bowel disorders.Mayer EA, Raybould HE.Department of Medicine, Harbor/UCLA Medical Center, Torrance.This report analyzes the clinical and physiological evidence supporting a role for altered visceral afferent mechanisms in the pathogenesis of two functional bowel syndromes: noncardiac chest pain and the irritable bowel syndrome. *Considerable recent evidence indicates that increased contractility is present only in a minority of patients and that hypercontractile episodes are not temporally related to abdominal pain. In contrast, altered sensation and motor reflexes in response to physiological stimuli, such as mechanical distention or acid, is common when appropriately investigated.* The vagal and spinal afferent innervation mediates visceral sensation and is involved in multiple reflex loops regulating gastrointestinal effector function, such as motility and secretion. Sensory input can be modulated peripherally at the afferent nerve terminal, at the level of prevertebral ganglia, the spinal cord, and the brainstem. An up-regulation of afferent mechanisms would result both in altered conscious perception of physiological stimuli and in altered motor reflexes. Current evidence is consistent with an alteration in the peripheral functioning of visceral afferents and/or in the central processing of afferent information in the etiology of altered somatovisceral sensation and motor function observed in patients with functional bowel disease.


PS this one is on medline.K.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

This is one of the papers that cites the more heavily cited of the two abstracts. It is a review paper, and that may be part of it.I think the abstract speaks to the whole "is the pain a spasm" debate.


> quote:Role of visceral afferent mechanisms in functional bowel disorders.Mayer EA, Raybould HE.Department of Medicine, Harbor/UCLA Medical Center, Torrance.This report analyzes the clinical and physiological evidence supporting a role for altered visceral afferent mechanisms in the pathogenesis of two functional bowel syndromes: noncardiac chest pain and the irritable bowel syndrome. *Considerable recent evidence indicates that increased contractility is present only in a minority of patients and that hypercontractile episodes are not temporally related to abdominal pain. In contrast, altered sensation and motor reflexes in response to physiological stimuli, such as mechanical distention or acid, is common when appropriately investigated.* The vagal and spinal afferent innervation mediates visceral sensation and is involved in multiple reflex loops regulating gastrointestinal effector function, such as motility and secretion. Sensory input can be modulated peripherally at the afferent nerve terminal, at the level of prevertebral ganglia, the spinal cord, and the brainstem. An up-regulation of afferent mechanisms would result both in altered conscious perception of physiological stimuli and in altered motor reflexes. Current evidence is consistent with an alteration in the peripheral functioning of visceral afferents and/or in the central processing of afferent information in the etiology of altered somatovisceral sensation and motor function observed in patients with functional bowel disease.


PS this one is on medline.K.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Hypercontractile sort of said "spasm" to me in scientific jargon.K.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Hypercontractile sort of said "spasm" to me in scientific jargon.K.


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## jools41 (Jan 8, 2004)

well said skinny, your mail made me laugh







flux is just a bloody pest and i wish that he would just shut the hell up, having ibs is nothing to laugh about, i for one wish i had never gotten this illness







i would love to have a normal day


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## jools41 (Jan 8, 2004)

well said skinny, your mail made me laugh







flux is just a bloody pest and i wish that he would just shut the hell up, having ibs is nothing to laugh about, i for one wish i had never gotten this illness







i would love to have a normal day


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## skinny (Jul 27, 2002)

> quote:kare_bear88, looks like they both fell for it.


Fell for what? You didn't bother explaining that these were supplemental abstracts until someone checked up on you. Beside why are you quoting abstracts that aren't peer-reviewed anyways?jools: I'm sorry to hear about your IBS. I know how much it sucks.














The best thing to do is to stick around and read as much as you can and search the archives of this board for information already discussed. Most everyone here has something of value to say, but sometimes you have to put up with difficult personalities here. For your spasms, you might want to check into kmottus's story and CBT. If that's not feasible, hypnotherapy may help. The IBS audio program is a decent program if your IBS is anxiety/stress related. HT did nothing for me except for a few weeks of a mild placebo effect. You may have small intestinal bacterial overgrowth which causes IBS symptoms. Antibiotics or a liquid diet may help or eradicate your problem. Don't lose hope when you haven't tried most of the options. I was a 100+ times a day farter and antibiotics saved my life and improved my IBS tremendously. The information on this board helped me go for that treatment. Kmottus got better with CBT, eric with HT, kel claims remission with bunch of alternative treatments, bonnie by eliminating fructose, and it may take a while for you to do some trial and error on IBS treatments to see what works for you.skinny


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## skinny (Jul 27, 2002)

> quote:kare_bear88, looks like they both fell for it.


Fell for what? You didn't bother explaining that these were supplemental abstracts until someone checked up on you. Beside why are you quoting abstracts that aren't peer-reviewed anyways?jools: I'm sorry to hear about your IBS. I know how much it sucks.














The best thing to do is to stick around and read as much as you can and search the archives of this board for information already discussed. Most everyone here has something of value to say, but sometimes you have to put up with difficult personalities here. For your spasms, you might want to check into kmottus's story and CBT. If that's not feasible, hypnotherapy may help. The IBS audio program is a decent program if your IBS is anxiety/stress related. HT did nothing for me except for a few weeks of a mild placebo effect. You may have small intestinal bacterial overgrowth which causes IBS symptoms. Antibiotics or a liquid diet may help or eradicate your problem. Don't lose hope when you haven't tried most of the options. I was a 100+ times a day farter and antibiotics saved my life and improved my IBS tremendously. The information on this board helped me go for that treatment. Kmottus got better with CBT, eric with HT, kel claims remission with bunch of alternative treatments, bonnie by eliminating fructose, and it may take a while for you to do some trial and error on IBS treatments to see what works for you.skinny


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## kare_bear88 (May 12, 2003)

I'm not sure what they fell for either, skinny.I don't know how much faith to put in articles that aren't peer reviewed, either. There's got to be a reason they weren't peer reviewed, espcially from an author as prolific as Crowell.


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## kare_bear88 (May 12, 2003)

I'm not sure what they fell for either, skinny.I don't know how much faith to put in articles that aren't peer reviewed, either. There's got to be a reason they weren't peer reviewed, espcially from an author as prolific as Crowell.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Um...A lot of times bits and pieces of research that isn't big enough for a whole paper get presented at scientific meetings. How much peer review they get varies depending on the conference.Sometimes they end up as little bits and pieces of other papers. It varies a lot as to their fate







The one abstract has actually gotten a bunch of citations, some from people OTHER than the main author, that in itself is a form of peer review. That others found that tidbit good enough to cite to back up their stuff







A lot of peer reviewed papers in good journals never manage to get cited 9 different times







And All I had to do was look at the reference to know it was supplemental material, but then I've done enough references for journals I know the format.K.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Um...A lot of times bits and pieces of research that isn't big enough for a whole paper get presented at scientific meetings. How much peer review they get varies depending on the conference.Sometimes they end up as little bits and pieces of other papers. It varies a lot as to their fate







The one abstract has actually gotten a bunch of citations, some from people OTHER than the main author, that in itself is a form of peer review. That others found that tidbit good enough to cite to back up their stuff







A lot of peer reviewed papers in good journals never manage to get cited 9 different times







And All I had to do was look at the reference to know it was supplemental material, but then I've done enough references for journals I know the format.K.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

> quote:I'm not sure what they fell for either, skinny.


I think flux might have thought you must be kidding if you said you didn't find it in the library. Because at that time there was a question in the reader's mind whether you did an online search or actually went to the library though I was leaning towards you doing it online because I knew supplementals didn't always show up online.


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## bonniei (Jan 25, 2001)

> quote:I'm not sure what they fell for either, skinny.


I think flux might have thought you must be kidding if you said you didn't find it in the library. Because at that time there was a question in the reader's mind whether you did an online search or actually went to the library though I was leaning towards you doing it online because I knew supplementals didn't always show up online.


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## captaincolon (Jul 6, 2004)

> quote:Kmottus wrote:I think the abstract speaks to the whole "is the pain a spasm" debate.and,Hypercontractile sort of said "spasm" to me in scientific jargon.


Kmottus, I'd just like to point out that Flux didn't post those citations to address the "is the pain a spasm" debate. He posted them to attempt to prove that spasms are NOT even part of IBS! In that same post, along with the citations, Flux stated that one of the studies found:"in diarrhea-predominant IBS, the number of HAPCs (high-amplitude propagated contractions) are the same and the amplitude of contractions is less!" (compared to the healthy group.)Then he stated to me:"So where are those spasms? Maybe hiding out with the weapons of mass destruction" and, "So does mean you agree there never were any spasms?"So you see, he is attempting to say that those studies (or abstracts, as it turns out) that he cited prove that spasms are not part of IBS. Ironically, the paper you quote above, which cites one of Flux's studies, as well as your comment "Hypercontractile sort of said 'spasm' to me in scientific jargon" actually disputes Flux's claim that there are no spasms on IBS.I'd also like to point out that Flux posted those citations in response to the 1997 Johns Hopkins Magazine article discussing an IBS study which I earlier posted which states:


> quote:Schuster and his colleagues conducted a series of studies in which volunteers wore tiny pressure transducers that recorded the pressure of the muscles lining their colon and rectum. Recordings were made over a 24-hour period, while volunteers went about their normal daily routines.The researchers found that many IBS patients have disorganized and significantly more vigorous contractions. The muscles tend to spasm. "There's a more prolonged contraction, over a larger area," says Schuster. "It's like having a Charlie horse in the gut."The Hopkins team found that while healthy volunteers had between six to eight peristaltic contractions in their colon within a 24-hour period, IBS volunteers who tended to be constipated had almost none, and volunteers who frequently had diarrhea had as many as 25 peristaltic contractions per day.


ref:Johns Hopkins Magazine Article In his attempt to prove there are no spasms with IBS, Flux insisted that the studies he cited are the same ones discussed in the above Johns Hopkins article, and that the article got the facts in the studies "all backwards". (eg. the Hopkins article states: "The researchers found that many IBS patients have disorganized and significantly more vigorous contractions", to which Flux responded "This describes pseudo-obstruction, not IBS. I am guessing he (Schuster) talked about pseudo-obstruction in the interview with the author Melissa Hendricks and she got the two confused.") Anyway, my feeling is that these are NOT the same studies, and that Schuster's studies discussed in the Hopkins article where conducted after the ones Flux cited, using superior methodology. And that's why spasms were detected with the test instruments. Unfortunately, after I asked for it, Flux refused to disclose any info about the methodology used in the studies he cited to confirm whether or not those are actually the same studies. The fact that Schuster's name isn't even in the citation he provided for the study (abstract) about diarrhea-predominant IBS patients also makes me quite doubtful about his claims.It sure would be nice to have a look at Schuster's study that's discussed in the Hopkins article, but I can't seem to find it anywhere.-Captain Colon


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## captaincolon (Jul 6, 2004)

> quote:Kmottus wrote:I think the abstract speaks to the whole "is the pain a spasm" debate.and,Hypercontractile sort of said "spasm" to me in scientific jargon.


Kmottus, I'd just like to point out that Flux didn't post those citations to address the "is the pain a spasm" debate. He posted them to attempt to prove that spasms are NOT even part of IBS! In that same post, along with the citations, Flux stated that one of the studies found:"in diarrhea-predominant IBS, the number of HAPCs (high-amplitude propagated contractions) are the same and the amplitude of contractions is less!" (compared to the healthy group.)Then he stated to me:"So where are those spasms? Maybe hiding out with the weapons of mass destruction" and, "So does mean you agree there never were any spasms?"So you see, he is attempting to say that those studies (or abstracts, as it turns out) that he cited prove that spasms are not part of IBS. Ironically, the paper you quote above, which cites one of Flux's studies, as well as your comment "Hypercontractile sort of said 'spasm' to me in scientific jargon" actually disputes Flux's claim that there are no spasms on IBS.I'd also like to point out that Flux posted those citations in response to the 1997 Johns Hopkins Magazine article discussing an IBS study which I earlier posted which states:


> quote:Schuster and his colleagues conducted a series of studies in which volunteers wore tiny pressure transducers that recorded the pressure of the muscles lining their colon and rectum. Recordings were made over a 24-hour period, while volunteers went about their normal daily routines.The researchers found that many IBS patients have disorganized and significantly more vigorous contractions. The muscles tend to spasm. "There's a more prolonged contraction, over a larger area," says Schuster. "It's like having a Charlie horse in the gut."The Hopkins team found that while healthy volunteers had between six to eight peristaltic contractions in their colon within a 24-hour period, IBS volunteers who tended to be constipated had almost none, and volunteers who frequently had diarrhea had as many as 25 peristaltic contractions per day.


ref:Johns Hopkins Magazine Article In his attempt to prove there are no spasms with IBS, Flux insisted that the studies he cited are the same ones discussed in the above Johns Hopkins article, and that the article got the facts in the studies "all backwards". (eg. the Hopkins article states: "The researchers found that many IBS patients have disorganized and significantly more vigorous contractions", to which Flux responded "This describes pseudo-obstruction, not IBS. I am guessing he (Schuster) talked about pseudo-obstruction in the interview with the author Melissa Hendricks and she got the two confused.") Anyway, my feeling is that these are NOT the same studies, and that Schuster's studies discussed in the Hopkins article where conducted after the ones Flux cited, using superior methodology. And that's why spasms were detected with the test instruments. Unfortunately, after I asked for it, Flux refused to disclose any info about the methodology used in the studies he cited to confirm whether or not those are actually the same studies. The fact that Schuster's name isn't even in the citation he provided for the study (abstract) about diarrhea-predominant IBS patients also makes me quite doubtful about his claims.It sure would be nice to have a look at Schuster's study that's discussed in the Hopkins article, but I can't seem to find it anywhere.-Captain Colon


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: It sure would be nice to have a look at Schuster's study that's discussed in the Hopkins article, but I can't seem to find it anywhere.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote: It sure would be nice to have a look at Schuster's study that's discussed in the Hopkins article, but I can't seem to find it anywhere.


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## jools41 (Jan 8, 2004)

i have found this site to be most helpful and also i find people really helpful (well most of them) i have been talking to my doc and she has re-assured me that ibs sufferers CAN get spasms but not everyone does, my partner has MS and a few of his mates dont always get the same symptoms as him i feel ibs is similar i.e not everyone diagnosed have identical symptoms. I am aware that im one of the luckier ones (i ahve only had it for 4 years) some people on here have had it for 20+ years and i really feel for people who have had this horrible illness for a lot more years than me and i feel a lot of empathy for them. I not only have ibs but i certainly was in the back of the line where health is concerned i have had a stomach ulcers since i was 17 and occasionally get a lot of pain from this, i am going into get my bladder reapired in 2 weeks time as i have been plagued with problems for the last ten years, life can certainly suck! on here i wish people would use the chat room as id love to talk to fellow sufferers


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## jools41 (Jan 8, 2004)

i have found this site to be most helpful and also i find people really helpful (well most of them) i have been talking to my doc and she has re-assured me that ibs sufferers CAN get spasms but not everyone does, my partner has MS and a few of his mates dont always get the same symptoms as him i feel ibs is similar i.e not everyone diagnosed have identical symptoms. I am aware that im one of the luckier ones (i ahve only had it for 4 years) some people on here have had it for 20+ years and i really feel for people who have had this horrible illness for a lot more years than me and i feel a lot of empathy for them. I not only have ibs but i certainly was in the back of the line where health is concerned i have had a stomach ulcers since i was 17 and occasionally get a lot of pain from this, i am going into get my bladder reapired in 2 weeks time as i have been plagued with problems for the last ten years, life can certainly suck! on here i wish people would use the chat room as id love to talk to fellow sufferers


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## kare_bear88 (May 12, 2003)

Here's what I was getting at...These types of studies, as you know, are very expensive and take years of the researchers time. I understand that many studies are discussed at conferences and such while they are taking place so that other experts in the field can have their say and keep abreast of what is going on currently in the field. However, eventually, the studies discussed at such conferences are eventually written up and published in peer-reviewed journals if they are worth anything. This did not happen with the research in question. If these were more recent, I wouldn't have any problem with them; however, these studies are from 1989 and 1990, if anything had have panned out, they would have been published in peer-reviewed journals long ago.


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## kare_bear88 (May 12, 2003)

Here's what I was getting at...These types of studies, as you know, are very expensive and take years of the researchers time. I understand that many studies are discussed at conferences and such while they are taking place so that other experts in the field can have their say and keep abreast of what is going on currently in the field. However, eventually, the studies discussed at such conferences are eventually written up and published in peer-reviewed journals if they are worth anything. This did not happen with the research in question. If these were more recent, I wouldn't have any problem with them; however, these studies are from 1989 and 1990, if anything had have panned out, they would have been published in peer-reviewed journals long ago.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

"CauseIBS is not caused by structural, biochemical, or infectious abnormalities. Rather, IBS is considered a dysregulation, or abnormality of brain-bowel function. There is increased pain sensitivity and abnormal motility (increased or irregular muscular movement of the gut). In IBS, diarrhea comes from an increased rate of passage of stool through the colon. Constipation is the result of a decreased speed of stool passing through the colon. Spasms, which are very strong contractions, also occur in IBS. Increased pain sensitivity results from the increased sensitivity of the nerves. Sometimes, the nerves are so sensitive that normal contractions, even with digesting a normal meal, bring on pain or discomfort." http://www.med.unc.edu/medicine/fgidc/question.htm I would say something important here in IBS is "the nerves are so sensitive that normal contractions, even with digesting a normal meal, bring on pain or discomfort.""and just fyiAm J Gastroenterol. 2003 Aug;98( :1838-43. Related Articles, Links Association between pain episodes and high amplitude propagated pressure waves in patients with irritable bowel syndrome.Clemens CH, Samsom M, Roelofs JM, van Berge Henegouwen GP, Smout AJ.Gastrointestinal Research Unit, University Medical Center Utrecht, Utrecht, The NetherlandsIn the pathogenesis of irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), both increased visceral sensitivity and altered colonic motility seem to play a role. The aim of this study was to quantify the temporal relationship between pain episodes and the occurrence of high amplitude propagated pressure waves (HAPPWs).A total of 11 IBS patients with the nonconstipation predominant pattern of IBS and 10 sex- and age-matched healthy volunteers were studied. On day 1, a solid state manometric catheter was positioned in the left colon and connected to a data logger. The subjects then went home. Thereafter they pressed a button on the data logger at the beginning and end of each pain episode. The 24-h manometric signal recorded on day 2 was divided into consecutive 5-min periods. These periods were evaluated for the occurrence of pain and HAPPWs. Fisher's exact test was applied to calculate the probability that HAPPWs and pain episodes were unrelated. The symptom association probability (SAP) was calculated as (1.0 - P) x 100%. A SAP of >95% was considered to indicate that the observed association did not occur by chance.In four of seven patients with pain on day 2, the SAP was >95%. HAPPWs that were related to pain originated at a more proximal level (p = 0.026) and occurred earlier (p = 0.007) than HAPPWs that were not related to pain. The duration of a pain period was correlated with the number of pain-related HAPPWs in that period (r = 0.906, p = 0.013). Two of the 10 healthy subjects experienced pain, and these pain episodes were not associated with HAPPWs.Using objective analysis techniques, an association between pain episodes and HAPPWs was found in nonconstipated IBS patients with pain. HAPPWs that are associated with pain are only slightly different from HAPPWs not associated with pain.PMID: 12907341


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

"CauseIBS is not caused by structural, biochemical, or infectious abnormalities. Rather, IBS is considered a dysregulation, or abnormality of brain-bowel function. There is increased pain sensitivity and abnormal motility (increased or irregular muscular movement of the gut). In IBS, diarrhea comes from an increased rate of passage of stool through the colon. Constipation is the result of a decreased speed of stool passing through the colon. Spasms, which are very strong contractions, also occur in IBS. Increased pain sensitivity results from the increased sensitivity of the nerves. Sometimes, the nerves are so sensitive that normal contractions, even with digesting a normal meal, bring on pain or discomfort." http://www.med.unc.edu/medicine/fgidc/question.htm I would say something important here in IBS is "the nerves are so sensitive that normal contractions, even with digesting a normal meal, bring on pain or discomfort.""and just fyiAm J Gastroenterol. 2003 Aug;98( :1838-43. Related Articles, Links Association between pain episodes and high amplitude propagated pressure waves in patients with irritable bowel syndrome.Clemens CH, Samsom M, Roelofs JM, van Berge Henegouwen GP, Smout AJ.Gastrointestinal Research Unit, University Medical Center Utrecht, Utrecht, The NetherlandsIn the pathogenesis of irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), both increased visceral sensitivity and altered colonic motility seem to play a role. The aim of this study was to quantify the temporal relationship between pain episodes and the occurrence of high amplitude propagated pressure waves (HAPPWs).A total of 11 IBS patients with the nonconstipation predominant pattern of IBS and 10 sex- and age-matched healthy volunteers were studied. On day 1, a solid state manometric catheter was positioned in the left colon and connected to a data logger. The subjects then went home. Thereafter they pressed a button on the data logger at the beginning and end of each pain episode. The 24-h manometric signal recorded on day 2 was divided into consecutive 5-min periods. These periods were evaluated for the occurrence of pain and HAPPWs. Fisher's exact test was applied to calculate the probability that HAPPWs and pain episodes were unrelated. The symptom association probability (SAP) was calculated as (1.0 - P) x 100%. A SAP of >95% was considered to indicate that the observed association did not occur by chance.In four of seven patients with pain on day 2, the SAP was >95%. HAPPWs that were related to pain originated at a more proximal level (p = 0.026) and occurred earlier (p = 0.007) than HAPPWs that were not related to pain. The duration of a pain period was correlated with the number of pain-related HAPPWs in that period (r = 0.906, p = 0.013). Two of the 10 healthy subjects experienced pain, and these pain episodes were not associated with HAPPWs.Using objective analysis techniques, an association between pain episodes and HAPPWs was found in nonconstipated IBS patients with pain. HAPPWs that are associated with pain are only slightly different from HAPPWs not associated with pain.PMID: 12907341


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Um...you mean this isn't those abstracts as part of a larger study eventually published ??


> quote:Z Gastroenterol. 1998 Sep;36(9):811-7. Physiological correlates of colonic motility in patients with irritable bowel syndrome.Bassotti G, Crowell MD, Cheskin LJ, Chami TN, Schuster MM, Whitehead WE.UNC Functional Gastrointestinal Disorders Center, Division of Digestive Diseases and Nutrition, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, USA.Irritable bowel syndrome is frequently encountered in clinical practice, and it has been repeatedly suggested that abnormal colonic motor activity is one of the major pathophysiological mechanisms responsible for the origin of symptoms in such disorder. If this statement is true, then high-amplitude propagated colonic contractions (HAPCs), i.e. the mass movements, may play an important role. To test this hypothesis, we conducted an investigation by recording colonic motility for a prolonged (24 h) period in 25 patients with irritable bowel syndrome and in 18 healthy volunteers, to compare the number of mass movements over 24 h in patients (constipation-predominant, alternating bowel habits) and controls. The overall amount of motility was also assessed in twelve patients and 13 controls. We also looked for the possible changes in mass movements and motility which may occur with defecation and after a meal. The results showed that 1) with respect to HAPCs and motility index, neither group was significantly different from controls; 2) HAPCs and the motility index were significantly reduced during sleep in all groups tested; 3) HAPCs were significantly more common before as compared to after defecation and after as compared to before meals; 4) HAPCs are not independent from the segmental contractile activity; 5) the motility index/24 h was lower in the constipation-predominant group of patients with respect to controls. We conclude that in patients with irritable bowel syndrome colonic motility per se may play a pathophysiological role in the genesis of the symptoms, although other mechanisms are likely to concur, or to be responsible for the complaints of these patients. However, colonic prolonged recordings are very useful for studying physiological and pathophysiological correlates of sleep, eating, and defecation.


I just thought that paper included the work from those abstracts??


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Um...you mean this isn't those abstracts as part of a larger study eventually published ??


> quote:Z Gastroenterol. 1998 Sep;36(9):811-7. Physiological correlates of colonic motility in patients with irritable bowel syndrome.Bassotti G, Crowell MD, Cheskin LJ, Chami TN, Schuster MM, Whitehead WE.UNC Functional Gastrointestinal Disorders Center, Division of Digestive Diseases and Nutrition, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, USA.Irritable bowel syndrome is frequently encountered in clinical practice, and it has been repeatedly suggested that abnormal colonic motor activity is one of the major pathophysiological mechanisms responsible for the origin of symptoms in such disorder. If this statement is true, then high-amplitude propagated colonic contractions (HAPCs), i.e. the mass movements, may play an important role. To test this hypothesis, we conducted an investigation by recording colonic motility for a prolonged (24 h) period in 25 patients with irritable bowel syndrome and in 18 healthy volunteers, to compare the number of mass movements over 24 h in patients (constipation-predominant, alternating bowel habits) and controls. The overall amount of motility was also assessed in twelve patients and 13 controls. We also looked for the possible changes in mass movements and motility which may occur with defecation and after a meal. The results showed that 1) with respect to HAPCs and motility index, neither group was significantly different from controls; 2) HAPCs and the motility index were significantly reduced during sleep in all groups tested; 3) HAPCs were significantly more common before as compared to after defecation and after as compared to before meals; 4) HAPCs are not independent from the segmental contractile activity; 5) the motility index/24 h was lower in the constipation-predominant group of patients with respect to controls. We conclude that in patients with irritable bowel syndrome colonic motility per se may play a pathophysiological role in the genesis of the symptoms, although other mechanisms are likely to concur, or to be responsible for the complaints of these patients. However, colonic prolonged recordings are very useful for studying physiological and pathophysiological correlates of sleep, eating, and defecation.


I just thought that paper included the work from those abstracts??


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## captaincolon (Jul 6, 2004)

> quote:Captain Colon wrote: It sure would be nice to have a look at Schuster's study that's discussed in the Hopkins article, but I can't seem to find it anywhere.





> quote:Flux wrote:


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## captaincolon (Jul 6, 2004)

> quote:Captain Colon wrote: It sure would be nice to have a look at Schuster's study that's discussed in the Hopkins article, but I can't seem to find it anywhere.





> quote:Flux wrote:


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## captaincolon (Jul 6, 2004)

Here's something interesting Flux, regarding the American Gastroenterological Association. The AGA's 14,000 members include physicians and scientists who research, diagnose and treat disorders of the gastrointestinal tract and liver. They also happen to publish Gastroenterology, the publication the abstracts you cited appeared in, of course. Obviously a very reputable organization!On the AGA website, on the Irritable Bowel Syndrome page, is stated:


> quote:-Researchers have found that the colon muscle of a person with IBS begins to *spasm* after only mild stimulation.-Certain medicines and foods may trigger *spasms* in some people. Sometimes the *spasm* delays the passage of stool, leading to constipation. -Stress also stimulates colonic *spasms* in people with IBS.


ref:AGA Irritable Bowel Syndrome Page Now please explain to me, Flux, how they can be so very wrong, and you be so very right? Amazing!







=======AGA Overview:


> quote:The AGA is dedicated to the mission of advancing the science and practice of gastroenterology. Founded in 1897, the American Gastroenterological Association is the oldest medical specialty society in the United States. The AGA's 14,000 members include physicians and scientists who research, diagnose and treat disorders of the gastrointestinal tract and liver. On a monthly basis, the AGA publishes two highly respected journals, Gastroenterology and Clinical Gastroenterology and Hepatology. The AGA's annual meeting is Digestive Disease Weekï¿½, which is held each May and is the largest international gathering of physicians, researchers and academics in the fields of gastroenterology, hepatology, endoscopy and gastrointestinal surgery.


ref: About The AGA -Captain Colon


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## captaincolon (Jul 6, 2004)

Here's something interesting Flux, regarding the American Gastroenterological Association. The AGA's 14,000 members include physicians and scientists who research, diagnose and treat disorders of the gastrointestinal tract and liver. They also happen to publish Gastroenterology, the publication the abstracts you cited appeared in, of course. Obviously a very reputable organization!On the AGA website, on the Irritable Bowel Syndrome page, is stated:


> quote:-Researchers have found that the colon muscle of a person with IBS begins to *spasm* after only mild stimulation.-Certain medicines and foods may trigger *spasms* in some people. Sometimes the *spasm* delays the passage of stool, leading to constipation. -Stress also stimulates colonic *spasms* in people with IBS.


ref:AGA Irritable Bowel Syndrome Page Now please explain to me, Flux, how they can be so very wrong, and you be so very right? Amazing!







=======AGA Overview:


> quote:The AGA is dedicated to the mission of advancing the science and practice of gastroenterology. Founded in 1897, the American Gastroenterological Association is the oldest medical specialty society in the United States. The AGA's 14,000 members include physicians and scientists who research, diagnose and treat disorders of the gastrointestinal tract and liver. On a monthly basis, the AGA publishes two highly respected journals, Gastroenterology and Clinical Gastroenterology and Hepatology. The AGA's annual meeting is Digestive Disease Weekï¿½, which is held each May and is the largest international gathering of physicians, researchers and academics in the fields of gastroenterology, hepatology, endoscopy and gastrointestinal surgery.


ref: About The AGA -Captain Colon


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Now please explain to me, Flux, how they can be so very wrong, and you be so very right? Amazing


Already answered.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Now please explain to me, Flux, how they can be so very wrong, and you be so very right? Amazing


Already answered.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

I was actually curious about all this myself, so I talked to an expert today about it.Technically and more accurately they are not spasms, but contractions.Even though a more archaic name for IBS use to be spastic colon. The word spasms might still be used more for laymans and for simplicities sake.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

I was actually curious about all this myself, so I talked to an expert today about it.Technically and more accurately they are not spasms, but contractions.Even though a more archaic name for IBS use to be spastic colon. The word spasms might still be used more for laymans and for simplicities sake.


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## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

Spasms (GR.spasmos, a convulsion). An involuntary sudden movement or convulsive muscular contraction. Spasms may be clonic (characterized by alternate contraction and relaxation) or tonic (sustained). They may involve either visceral (smooth) muscle or skeletal (striated) muscle. When contractions are strong and painful, they are called cramps. The effect depends upon the part affected. Asthma is assumed to be due to spasm of muscular coats of smaller bronchi; renal colic to spasm of muscular coat of the ureter. What part of the above do you not understand? are we changing the English language?







Joann


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## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

Spasms (GR.spasmos, a convulsion). An involuntary sudden movement or convulsive muscular contraction. Spasms may be clonic (characterized by alternate contraction and relaxation) or tonic (sustained). They may involve either visceral (smooth) muscle or skeletal (striated) muscle. When contractions are strong and painful, they are called cramps. The effect depends upon the part affected. Asthma is assumed to be due to spasm of muscular coats of smaller bronchi; renal colic to spasm of muscular coat of the ureter. What part of the above do you not understand? are we changing the English language?







Joann


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## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

Oh, above is from Taber's Cyclopedic Medical Dictionary Joann


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## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

Oh, above is from Taber's Cyclopedic Medical Dictionary Joann


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

well Jhouston, the expert I talked to about this today was from the UNC Center for functional GI disorders.The UNC Center for Functional GI & Motility Disorders is a center of excellence within the Division of Gastroenterology & Hepatology, School of Medicine, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. In a joint statement, the Center's co-directors William E. Whitehead (Professor of Medicine) and Douglas A. Drossman (Professor of Medicine and Psychiatry) said: "We are very pleased to be funded through the NIH initiative on Mind-Body Interactions and Health. This grant will enable us to carry out longer-term collaborations with other disciplines and with a variety of institutions nationally and internationally in mind-body and health studies. We are excited about the prospects for using this award to build on our longstanding record of NIH-funded research in this area and to develop new research partners and new areas of research."Funding for mind/body centers is provided through the Office of Behavioral and Social Sciences Research (OBSSR) within the NIH Office of the Director, as a cooperative effort of about a dozen institutes within NIH. This broad-based initiative evolved from growing evidence that interdisciplinary research which integrates the study of social, behavioral, psychological and biological factors holds particular promise in understanding disease etiology and promoting health. The first five centers were funded in 1999. An additional five centers were selected for funding in 2004. The UNC grant was funded through the National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases (NIDDK).Research at the UNC Center has included studies on the pathophysiology and treatment of such prevalent functional GI disorders as irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), functional dyspepsia, functional abdominal pain, fecal incontinence, and constipation. http://www.ibsgroup.org/cgi-local/ubbcgi/u...ic;f=1;t=039353 and a coauthor of this study among many IBS studies. That why I asked them. Technically they are not spasms.Dig Dis Sci. 2004 Aug;49(7-8):1236-43. Related Articles, Links Elevated vasoactive intestinal peptide concentrations in patients with irritable bowel syndrome.Palsson OS, Morteau O, Bozymski EM, Woosley JT, Sartor RB, Davies MJ, Johnson DA, Turner MJ, Whitehead WE.Division of Gastroenterology and Hepatology and Center for Functional Gastrointestinal and Motility Disorders, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Chapel Hill, North Carolina, USA.The aim was to assess the roles of gut hormones and immune dysfunction in irritable bowel. In Study I, rectal mucosal samples examined blindly showed no histological evidence of inflammation in 16 irritable bowel patients compared to 17 healthy controls. The proinflammatory mediators interleukin-1beta and prostaglandin E2 also failed to show evidence of inflammation. Vasoactive intestinal peptide was elevated in irritable bowel (P = 0.01), but substance P, calcitonin gene-related peptide, and somatostatin levels were similar to control values. In Study II, 30 irritable bowel patients had elevated (P = 0.002) plasma concentrations of vasoactive intestinal peptide compared to 30 controls, and peptide levels were unrelated to whether the patient's predominant bowel habit was constipation, diarrhea, or both in alternation. In conclusion, no evidence of inflammation was detected in irritable bowel patients, but elevated vasoactive intestinal peptide concentrations were observed in both studies and might represent a potential diagnostic tool for irritable bowel syndrome.PMID: 15387352So they maynot be "convulsion" but abnormal gut contractions, combined with viceral hypersenitivity.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

well Jhouston, the expert I talked to about this today was from the UNC Center for functional GI disorders.The UNC Center for Functional GI & Motility Disorders is a center of excellence within the Division of Gastroenterology & Hepatology, School of Medicine, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. In a joint statement, the Center's co-directors William E. Whitehead (Professor of Medicine) and Douglas A. Drossman (Professor of Medicine and Psychiatry) said: "We are very pleased to be funded through the NIH initiative on Mind-Body Interactions and Health. This grant will enable us to carry out longer-term collaborations with other disciplines and with a variety of institutions nationally and internationally in mind-body and health studies. We are excited about the prospects for using this award to build on our longstanding record of NIH-funded research in this area and to develop new research partners and new areas of research."Funding for mind/body centers is provided through the Office of Behavioral and Social Sciences Research (OBSSR) within the NIH Office of the Director, as a cooperative effort of about a dozen institutes within NIH. This broad-based initiative evolved from growing evidence that interdisciplinary research which integrates the study of social, behavioral, psychological and biological factors holds particular promise in understanding disease etiology and promoting health. The first five centers were funded in 1999. An additional five centers were selected for funding in 2004. The UNC grant was funded through the National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases (NIDDK).Research at the UNC Center has included studies on the pathophysiology and treatment of such prevalent functional GI disorders as irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), functional dyspepsia, functional abdominal pain, fecal incontinence, and constipation. http://www.ibsgroup.org/cgi-local/ubbcgi/u...ic;f=1;t=039353 and a coauthor of this study among many IBS studies. That why I asked them. Technically they are not spasms.Dig Dis Sci. 2004 Aug;49(7-8):1236-43. Related Articles, Links Elevated vasoactive intestinal peptide concentrations in patients with irritable bowel syndrome.Palsson OS, Morteau O, Bozymski EM, Woosley JT, Sartor RB, Davies MJ, Johnson DA, Turner MJ, Whitehead WE.Division of Gastroenterology and Hepatology and Center for Functional Gastrointestinal and Motility Disorders, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Chapel Hill, North Carolina, USA.The aim was to assess the roles of gut hormones and immune dysfunction in irritable bowel. In Study I, rectal mucosal samples examined blindly showed no histological evidence of inflammation in 16 irritable bowel patients compared to 17 healthy controls. The proinflammatory mediators interleukin-1beta and prostaglandin E2 also failed to show evidence of inflammation. Vasoactive intestinal peptide was elevated in irritable bowel (P = 0.01), but substance P, calcitonin gene-related peptide, and somatostatin levels were similar to control values. In Study II, 30 irritable bowel patients had elevated (P = 0.002) plasma concentrations of vasoactive intestinal peptide compared to 30 controls, and peptide levels were unrelated to whether the patient's predominant bowel habit was constipation, diarrhea, or both in alternation. In conclusion, no evidence of inflammation was detected in irritable bowel patients, but elevated vasoactive intestinal peptide concentrations were observed in both studies and might represent a potential diagnostic tool for irritable bowel syndrome.PMID: 15387352So they maynot be "convulsion" but abnormal gut contractions, combined with viceral hypersenitivity.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

This is how complicated this really is on the gut and contractions.Gut 1999;45(Suppl 2):II17-II24 ( September )Principles of applied neurogastroenterology: physiology/motility-sensationJ E Kellowa, M Delvauxb, F Azpirozc, M Camillerid, E M M Quigleye, D G Thompsonf"Many of the symptoms characteristic of the functional gastrointestinal disorders (FGID) are consistent with dysfunction of the motor and/or sensory apparatus of the digestive tract. Those aspects of sensorimotor dysfunction most relevant to the FGID include alterations in: gut contractile activity; myoelectrical activity; tone and compliance; and transit, as well as an enhanced sensitivity to distension, in each region of the gastrointestinal tract.""Introduction Motility of the digestive tract encompasses the phenomena of myoelectrical activity, contractile activity, tone, compliance, and transit. In the functional gastrointestinal disorders (FGID), various types of dysmotility have been documented repeatedly, and most likely reflect dysfunction at one or more levels of the brain-gut axis. Patients with FGID also exhibit sensory afferent dysfunction, manifest as an altered sensitivity to stimuli such as distension of the gut, and selectively affecting the visceral territory. "Digestive tract sensorimotor physiology and pathophysiologyBASIC CONCEPTS AND DEFINITIONS RELEVANT TO THE FGIDMotilityContractile activity and tone http://gut.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/45/suppl_2/II17 and just so you know, if you took a colon and took it out of someone, but it was still connected and but not distended, you could bascially cut it with a knife and the person would not feel pain, but when you distend it, then it signals pain to the brain. It is only when its distened does it release neurotransmitters to signal pain to the brain.IN IBS their is also an impairment of the brain (ACC) in processing those signals.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

This is how complicated this really is on the gut and contractions.Gut 1999;45(Suppl 2):II17-II24 ( September )Principles of applied neurogastroenterology: physiology/motility-sensationJ E Kellowa, M Delvauxb, F Azpirozc, M Camillerid, E M M Quigleye, D G Thompsonf"Many of the symptoms characteristic of the functional gastrointestinal disorders (FGID) are consistent with dysfunction of the motor and/or sensory apparatus of the digestive tract. Those aspects of sensorimotor dysfunction most relevant to the FGID include alterations in: gut contractile activity; myoelectrical activity; tone and compliance; and transit, as well as an enhanced sensitivity to distension, in each region of the gastrointestinal tract.""Introduction Motility of the digestive tract encompasses the phenomena of myoelectrical activity, contractile activity, tone, compliance, and transit. In the functional gastrointestinal disorders (FGID), various types of dysmotility have been documented repeatedly, and most likely reflect dysfunction at one or more levels of the brain-gut axis. Patients with FGID also exhibit sensory afferent dysfunction, manifest as an altered sensitivity to stimuli such as distension of the gut, and selectively affecting the visceral territory. "Digestive tract sensorimotor physiology and pathophysiologyBASIC CONCEPTS AND DEFINITIONS RELEVANT TO THE FGIDMotilityContractile activity and tone http://gut.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/45/suppl_2/II17 and just so you know, if you took a colon and took it out of someone, but it was still connected and but not distended, you could bascially cut it with a knife and the person would not feel pain, but when you distend it, then it signals pain to the brain. It is only when its distened does it release neurotransmitters to signal pain to the brain.IN IBS their is also an impairment of the brain (ACC) in processing those signals.


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## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

Eric, wasn't really saying this specifically to you......in general. above definition states OR An involuntary sudden movement OR convulsive muscular contraction Joann


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## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

Eric, wasn't really saying this specifically to you......in general. above definition states OR An involuntary sudden movement OR convulsive muscular contraction Joann


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Last thing for the only one sceptic.Why they sells anti-spasmodic if they were no spasms.What are they?Lack of peristaltic to propulse the gas resulting of trapped gas(spasms).In my case,and many others we can releive the gas by burping or in extrem pain,you should vomit.It stop the pain,NO KIDDING!But if you can burp the gas in or around the stomach,YOU WILL FEEL THAT THE TRAPPED GAS will INSTANTLY MOVES".







I don't understand WHY but just think at a baby who NEED to burp to digest.Like babyFlux for exemple.


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

Last thing for the only one sceptic.Why they sells anti-spasmodic if they were no spasms.What are they?Lack of peristaltic to propulse the gas resulting of trapped gas(spasms).In my case,and many others we can releive the gas by burping or in extrem pain,you should vomit.It stop the pain,NO KIDDING!But if you can burp the gas in or around the stomach,YOU WILL FEEL THAT THE TRAPPED GAS will INSTANTLY MOVES".







I don't understand WHY but just think at a baby who NEED to burp to digest.Like babyFlux for exemple.


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

At the moment,i try to find someting to burps my inner gas,apparently some "alcool digestive" in low dose can burp the hell inside us.


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## SpAsMaN* (May 11, 2002)

At the moment,i try to find someting to burps my inner gas,apparently some "alcool digestive" in low dose can burp the hell inside us.


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## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

SPASMAN......think you name is politically incorrect lol Joann


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## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

SPASMAN......think you name is politically incorrect lol Joann


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

sorry Joann, if I misintepreted what you said there?The movemants are driven autonomically under control of the autonomic nervous system. Gastrointestinal Motility and Smooth MuscleThis has graphs and the lower graphs show what can happen in IBS, where Segmentation Contractions can be abnormal along the lenght of the colon and its easy to see how they could trap gas. If a person learns ways to relax the colon, its easier for the gas to be expelled. http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathp...i_motility.html The next one again is on how complex all this is and why it would be easier to say spasms to a layman or even to you the word for simplicities sake, which I personally don't see any problem in really. I have used it many times myself and have said my gut is spasming.Similarities and differences in the propagation of slow waves and peristaltic waves http://ajpgi.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/283/3/G778 I think its okay for him to keep the name.







Of course it could be abnormal sigmoid colon contraction man, abnormal peristaltic waves man, or Segmentation contractions colon man.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

sorry Joann, if I misintepreted what you said there?The movemants are driven autonomically under control of the autonomic nervous system. Gastrointestinal Motility and Smooth MuscleThis has graphs and the lower graphs show what can happen in IBS, where Segmentation Contractions can be abnormal along the lenght of the colon and its easy to see how they could trap gas. If a person learns ways to relax the colon, its easier for the gas to be expelled. http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathp...i_motility.html The next one again is on how complex all this is and why it would be easier to say spasms to a layman or even to you the word for simplicities sake, which I personally don't see any problem in really. I have used it many times myself and have said my gut is spasming.Similarities and differences in the propagation of slow waves and peristaltic waves http://ajpgi.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/283/3/G778 I think its okay for him to keep the name.







Of course it could be abnormal sigmoid colon contraction man, abnormal peristaltic waves man, or Segmentation contractions colon man.


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## captaincolon (Jul 6, 2004)

> quote:Eric wrote:....(edited)...how complex all this is and why it would be easier to say spasms to a layman or even to you the word for simplicities sake, which I personally don't see any problem in really. I have used it many times myself and have said my gut is spasming.


Doctors seem to use the word "spasms" not only for laymen, but also sometimes between themselves, probably for simplicities sake too, I'd imagine. The Gastroenterologist I mentioned earlier that gave me a colonoscopy wrote that my colon was "extremely long and spastic" on the report which he sent to my GP doctor. Some medical studies use the word:


> quote:BACKGROUND: Loperamide has a relaxing effect on localized and segmental large-bowel *spasms* ....


ref:A double-blind placebo-controlled trial with loperamide in irritable bowel syndrome.


> quote:RESULTS: Compared to the group without abdominal complaints significantly more subjects with IBS had *spasms* of the colon (OR = 10.2 (1.2-87.3)), and abnormal contractions of the oesophagus at manometry (OR = 9.1 (1.1-78.2)). Furthermore, there was a non-significant tendency towards *spasms* at 23-hour pH and pressure recordings (OR = 3.58 (0.4-35.2)), and more discomfort at lactose tolerance test (OR = 5.8 (0.6-51.3)) in persons with IBS compared to subjects without abdominal complaints.


ref:Gastrointestinal dysfunction in a community sample of subjects with symptoms of irritable bowel syndrome.


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## captaincolon (Jul 6, 2004)

> quote:Eric wrote:....(edited)...how complex all this is and why it would be easier to say spasms to a layman or even to you the word for simplicities sake, which I personally don't see any problem in really. I have used it many times myself and have said my gut is spasming.


Doctors seem to use the word "spasms" not only for laymen, but also sometimes between themselves, probably for simplicities sake too, I'd imagine. The Gastroenterologist I mentioned earlier that gave me a colonoscopy wrote that my colon was "extremely long and spastic" on the report which he sent to my GP doctor. Some medical studies use the word:


> quote:BACKGROUND: Loperamide has a relaxing effect on localized and segmental large-bowel *spasms* ....


ref:A double-blind placebo-controlled trial with loperamide in irritable bowel syndrome.


> quote:RESULTS: Compared to the group without abdominal complaints significantly more subjects with IBS had *spasms* of the colon (OR = 10.2 (1.2-87.3)), and abnormal contractions of the oesophagus at manometry (OR = 9.1 (1.1-78.2)). Furthermore, there was a non-significant tendency towards *spasms* at 23-hour pH and pressure recordings (OR = 3.58 (0.4-35.2)), and more discomfort at lactose tolerance test (OR = 5.8 (0.6-51.3)) in persons with IBS compared to subjects without abdominal complaints.


ref:Gastrointestinal dysfunction in a community sample of subjects with symptoms of irritable bowel syndrome.


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## captaincolon (Jul 6, 2004)

> quote:Flux wrote:Already answered.


Ah yes, how forgetful of me.... You have those 1989 and 1990 issues of Gastroenterology, not available online, containing abstracts which you claim prove that there are no spasms in IBS.In light of the fact that Gastroenterology is published by the American Gastroenterological Association, and the AGA has these statements on the Irritable Bowel Syndrome page of their website......:


> quote:-Researchers have found that the colon muscle of a person with IBS begins to *spasm* after only mild stimulation.-Certain medicines and foods may trigger *spasms* in some people. Sometimes the *spasm* delays the passage of stool, leading to constipation. -Stress also stimulates colonic *spasms* in people with IBS


ref:AGA IBS Page.......don't you think it was terribly negligent of them NOT to research their 1989/90 Gastroenterology back issues and discover their mistake before putting up this misinformation using the word "spasm" on their website? And don't you feel you have a moral obligation to contact them now and demand they correct this oversight, before even more people become misinformed?







AGA Overview:


> quote:The AGA is dedicated to the mission of advancing the science and practice of gastroenterology. Founded in 1897, the American Gastroenterological Association is the oldest medical specialty society in the United States. The AGA's 14,000 members include physicians and scientists who research, diagnose and treat disorders of the gastrointestinal tract and liver. On a monthly basis, the AGA publishes two highly respected journals, Gastroenterology and Clinical Gastroenterology and Hepatology. The AGA's annual meeting is Digestive Disease Weekï¿½, which is held each May and is the largest international gathering of physicians, researchers and academics in the fields of gastroenterology, hepatology, endoscopy and gastrointestinal surgery.


ref: About the AGA -Captain Colon


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## captaincolon (Jul 6, 2004)

> quote:Flux wrote:Already answered.


Ah yes, how forgetful of me.... You have those 1989 and 1990 issues of Gastroenterology, not available online, containing abstracts which you claim prove that there are no spasms in IBS.In light of the fact that Gastroenterology is published by the American Gastroenterological Association, and the AGA has these statements on the Irritable Bowel Syndrome page of their website......:


> quote:-Researchers have found that the colon muscle of a person with IBS begins to *spasm* after only mild stimulation.-Certain medicines and foods may trigger *spasms* in some people. Sometimes the *spasm* delays the passage of stool, leading to constipation. -Stress also stimulates colonic *spasms* in people with IBS


ref:AGA IBS Page.......don't you think it was terribly negligent of them NOT to research their 1989/90 Gastroenterology back issues and discover their mistake before putting up this misinformation using the word "spasm" on their website? And don't you feel you have a moral obligation to contact them now and demand they correct this oversight, before even more people become misinformed?







AGA Overview:


> quote:The AGA is dedicated to the mission of advancing the science and practice of gastroenterology. Founded in 1897, the American Gastroenterological Association is the oldest medical specialty society in the United States. The AGA's 14,000 members include physicians and scientists who research, diagnose and treat disorders of the gastrointestinal tract and liver. On a monthly basis, the AGA publishes two highly respected journals, Gastroenterology and Clinical Gastroenterology and Hepatology. The AGA's annual meeting is Digestive Disease Weekï¿½, which is held each May and is the largest international gathering of physicians, researchers and academics in the fields of gastroenterology, hepatology, endoscopy and gastrointestinal surgery.


ref: About the AGA -Captain Colon


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## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

Well, I have to say this, ugh....The beginning of my troubles March of 2003, or what I considered a Gastro visit, I was on day 2 of a bladder infection, and had only eaten 2 doughnuts that day, about 6 hrs after the doughnuts I had achy pain on both sides of lower abdomen just above groin area. Urgency, run to toilet, no bms or very little.....strangeness of this is never happened before and was "trying" to be d but not and stool and little water, Strangest of all, to me, was I had a hemroid that disappeared! Thought something terrible was going to happen, thinking would wind up in ER. I was in terror. I told my doc about it. When I said my rectum felt like it locked up and hemroid was gone. He said "Spasms". This happened 3 times that year and all with bladder infections. I know from reading here something about Mast cells. Gi doc made no connection with bladder infection. Anyway, when I think of my experience those 3 times......I think I had spasms, but the other symptom other times seem so very different and not so scary I don't think spasms. But this is my internal view. For what its worth, Joann


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## Jhouston (Nov 9, 2003)

Well, I have to say this, ugh....The beginning of my troubles March of 2003, or what I considered a Gastro visit, I was on day 2 of a bladder infection, and had only eaten 2 doughnuts that day, about 6 hrs after the doughnuts I had achy pain on both sides of lower abdomen just above groin area. Urgency, run to toilet, no bms or very little.....strangeness of this is never happened before and was "trying" to be d but not and stool and little water, Strangest of all, to me, was I had a hemroid that disappeared! Thought something terrible was going to happen, thinking would wind up in ER. I was in terror. I told my doc about it. When I said my rectum felt like it locked up and hemroid was gone. He said "Spasms". This happened 3 times that year and all with bladder infections. I know from reading here something about Mast cells. Gi doc made no connection with bladder infection. Anyway, when I think of my experience those 3 times......I think I had spasms, but the other symptom other times seem so very different and not so scary I don't think spasms. But this is my internal view. For what its worth, Joann


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Loperamide has a relaxing effect on localized and segmental large-bowel spasms ...


Loperamide works in part by causing "spasms" of sphincters, namely the anal sphincter


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Loperamide has a relaxing effect on localized and segmental large-bowel spasms ...


Loperamide works in part by causing "spasms" of sphincters, namely the anal sphincter


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Much of the AGA technical review is done by leaders at the UNC as well as a lot of the gastroenterology publications. Whitehead is an expert on consipation and Drossman the chairman for rome and part of medscape and gastroentrology journal, merch manual and a leading teacher to Gastroenterology doctors and the head of digestive disease week, that your talking about.They helped write the AGA technical review, along with DR Mayer from UCLA, both these center are regonized centers of excellence in functional gi disorders. "Drossman DA, Camilleri M, Mayer E, Whitehead WE. AGA technical review on irritable bowel syndrome. Gastroenterology 2002;123:2108ï¿½2131.MEDLINE ABSTRACT FULL TEXT I certainly trust, the information they gave me yesterday. Technically they are not spasms, but contractions and as I posted above there are different kinds. I however don't think there is any problem in saying spasms and as you have pointed out doctors use the word also, but usally you see it in educational material, not usally in technical reviews or studies.For example the education material Capt C postedfrom the AGA says it, but not the actual review. Where I did not see the wrod spasms.There they are more careful in the actual review."Although no specific physiological mechanism is unique to, or characterizes IBS, there are at least 3 interrelated factors that affect symptoms to varying degrees in individuals with IBS: (1) altered gut reactivity (motility, secretion) in response to luminal (e.g., meals, gut distention, inflammation, bacterial factors) or provocative environmental (psychosocial stress) stimuli, resulting in symptoms of diarrhea and/or constipation; (2) a hypersensitive gut with enhanced visceral perception and pain; and (3) dysregulation of the brain-gut axis, possibly associated with greater stress-reactivity and altered perception and/or modulation of visceral afferent signals. Brain-gut axis dysregulation may also play a role in the subgroups of patients who have gut inflammatory and immune factors persisting following infection or inflammation of the bowel. Further studies are needed to characterize the precise role of these factors in IBS and to identify physiological subgroups more amenable to specific treatments."and call it"altered gut reactivity "for oneand when Drossman kindly gave me this."However, modern research understands IBS as a disorder of increased reactivity of the bowel, visceral hypersensitivity and dysfunction of the brain-gut axis. There are subgroups being defined as well, including post-infectious IBS which can lead to IBS symptoms. Other work using brain imaging shows that the pain regulation center of the brain (cingulate cortex) can be impaired, as well as good evidence for there being abnormalities in motility which can at least in part explain the diarrhea and constipation. So finding a specific "cause" of IBS has grown out of general interest in place of understanding physiological subgroups that may become amenable to more specific treatments. Hope that helps.Doug "He also used "increased reactivity of the bowel" http://www.ibshealth.com/ibs_foods_2.htm Jhouston, mast cells are important in IBS and IC and bladder issues in IBS.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Much of the AGA technical review is done by leaders at the UNC as well as a lot of the gastroenterology publications. Whitehead is an expert on consipation and Drossman the chairman for rome and part of medscape and gastroentrology journal, merch manual and a leading teacher to Gastroenterology doctors and the head of digestive disease week, that your talking about.They helped write the AGA technical review, along with DR Mayer from UCLA, both these center are regonized centers of excellence in functional gi disorders. "Drossman DA, Camilleri M, Mayer E, Whitehead WE. AGA technical review on irritable bowel syndrome. Gastroenterology 2002;123:2108ï¿½2131.MEDLINE ABSTRACT FULL TEXT I certainly trust, the information they gave me yesterday. Technically they are not spasms, but contractions and as I posted above there are different kinds. I however don't think there is any problem in saying spasms and as you have pointed out doctors use the word also, but usally you see it in educational material, not usally in technical reviews or studies.For example the education material Capt C postedfrom the AGA says it, but not the actual review. Where I did not see the wrod spasms.There they are more careful in the actual review."Although no specific physiological mechanism is unique to, or characterizes IBS, there are at least 3 interrelated factors that affect symptoms to varying degrees in individuals with IBS: (1) altered gut reactivity (motility, secretion) in response to luminal (e.g., meals, gut distention, inflammation, bacterial factors) or provocative environmental (psychosocial stress) stimuli, resulting in symptoms of diarrhea and/or constipation; (2) a hypersensitive gut with enhanced visceral perception and pain; and (3) dysregulation of the brain-gut axis, possibly associated with greater stress-reactivity and altered perception and/or modulation of visceral afferent signals. Brain-gut axis dysregulation may also play a role in the subgroups of patients who have gut inflammatory and immune factors persisting following infection or inflammation of the bowel. Further studies are needed to characterize the precise role of these factors in IBS and to identify physiological subgroups more amenable to specific treatments."and call it"altered gut reactivity "for oneand when Drossman kindly gave me this."However, modern research understands IBS as a disorder of increased reactivity of the bowel, visceral hypersensitivity and dysfunction of the brain-gut axis. There are subgroups being defined as well, including post-infectious IBS which can lead to IBS symptoms. Other work using brain imaging shows that the pain regulation center of the brain (cingulate cortex) can be impaired, as well as good evidence for there being abnormalities in motility which can at least in part explain the diarrhea and constipation. So finding a specific "cause" of IBS has grown out of general interest in place of understanding physiological subgroups that may become amenable to more specific treatments. Hope that helps.Doug "He also used "increased reactivity of the bowel" http://www.ibshealth.com/ibs_foods_2.htm Jhouston, mast cells are important in IBS and IC and bladder issues in IBS.


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