# Took20...the Grapefruit Seed Extract(GSE) works for me 2



## Talissa

Hey there,For 8 yrs now, haven't been able to eat a nice normal ham sandwich(or anything w/ nitrates). I ate one 3 days ago, and for the first time since IBS came along--NO REACTION. I did go thru a "die-off" period, where I got a bit of a cold & more D trips, but it wasn't bad at all.Thx so much for your advice...I found online another person who has taken GSE after their CDSA (stool test) found C Freundii and it took care of it for him...but he has to take GSE everyday, or his D comes back. I'm hoping if I can find the right probiotic, that won't be the situation for me. The intestinal microbe world is a complex one...But I still need to take the fiber. I may at some point, when I'm less busy, try going off the fiber for a week. Anyways, I've also read that GSE is effective ag many other bacteria & parasites, along w/ yeast, that can cause IBS symptoms. Maybe that's why so many people respond to taking it.How are you doing took20?Talissa


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## Talissa

Well, I guess took20years is not around right now...But I "need to share" this. As a non-practicing CN, I'm ashamed of myself. I've been eating like a college student again, just to test this new improvement out. I've drank soda, eaten chips, big bowl of pasta, all former triggers--still no reaction. (I won't continue this, but its fun for now!)After 8 yrs, it's weird. Really good, but weird. I'm going 2xs solid in the am...& think if I quit the high fiber, that will bring it down to 1 per/am...After 3 weeks taking the GSE in liquid form, I've been taking the GSE in caps(Proseed http://www.imhotepinc.com/product1.html ) since Dec 26th.Unlike took20, who got better taking the caps with meals, I'm following the directions on the bottle--3 caps daily on an empty stomach.I take probiotics before bed(right now it's Jarro-Dophilus & iFlora).Is anyone else trying out the GSE caps??Anyone?


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## cat crazy

TalissaHi. I am sure going to try it and hope it does the same good as it has done for you and T20. I will buy it this weekend when I have time and will post results over the weeks. Hanna


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## Arnie W

I started the cps just a few days ago, so it's too early to make a judgement yet. Some of my bms have been a bit too loose, but maybe that's from something else. I don't seem to be experiencing die-off, but did have a long run on the liquid drops during the past year. I took the drops between meals, but the recommendation for my cps is to take them shortly after meals, so I might experiment both ways.I would be interested to know what fibre you are taking, Talissa. Thanks.


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## 15866

TalissaYou just made my day!!!!My oldest daughter went back to college on Sunday so I have spent the past 3 or 4 days getting the house back to normal and just now checked the new posts! I am SO happy it's working for others!!I knew it would!I am still doing very well. As a matter of fact, yesterday the 9th was exactly 3 months since I first started taking the GSE. I made one of my favorite homemade soups over the weekend, black beans, corn, carrots, veggie broth and tomatoe based and cheese sprinkled on top. The tomatoe, cheese and broth would have had me on the floor with a migraine and moaning from stomach pain. But instead I have been savoring every spoonful of this healthy meal! I have had been eating raisins again, I have also had nitrites and nitrates too. But the best thing is being able to eat tyramines again which is in so many foods! I have gained a few pounds. Well..... Back to my usual 105 lbs ( I had gone down to 102-103 lbs for the last 8 months from not being able to eat so many things). My brother who was diagnosed with IBD about 7 years ago started the GSE before the holidays. He called a few nights ago and said he's noticed a change. How do I put this? When he goes he actually can call it a BM now. He said it's solid for the first time in YEARS! He is taking the GSE 2 to 3 times a day and the probiotic once every morning. None of the medicines his doctor has given him over the last 7 years has ever done this for him. The GSE I'm taking says : Suggested Use: Take one capsule one to three times daily, with or without meals, or as directed by a health care provider". I'm hypoglycemic so if I can take something with food I try to do that so I don't feel sick. I still take 2 or 3 GSE a week and 1 probiotic every day. I still can not believe that after 20 years I am CURED! Even the bleeding from my colon has almost completely stopped. It's just spotting every so often. I go to my oncologist/hemotologist this Friday for the results to the blood tests he took a few weeks ago. I almost bought some ham lunch meat the other day. I got scared! I'm trying all the tyramine foods first. I have been eating cheese on just about everything and fruits I had to give up. Spaghetti!!! I missed eating spaghetti! We have a garden every year and I always make home made marinara sauce and stock our freezer in our garage with quarts and quarts of it. I had to quit all tomatoe meals. NOT ANY MORE!!!CONGRATS TALISSA!You're off to a New Year!


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## 15866

For those who are going to try the GSE.First make sure you are not taking any other medicine that can't be taken with GSE. Ask your doctor if you can take GSE with that particular drug.Also, patience is the keyword.I noticed a change from the GSE after taking it for about 2 weeks. It was a subtle change, but a NICE subtle change. Every day after that I seemed to be getting better and better. My brother started noticing a change after about 3 weeks, again, very subtle. He said each day now he gets more and more solid. He didn't have the horrible cramping that I had for 20 years. With me the nicest change was having the cramping after eating start going away. That also took 2 or 3 weeks to subside. I don't have ANY cramping after eating anymore! Some people may take a few weeks to notice a change, others may take longer. But it seems to be a process that takes a little time for our bodies to heal, but when it does:HAVE FUN EATING AGAIN!


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## Talissa

Hi guys & took20,Am so glad I'm not the only one trying this out! But you called it took20, I've got bad news...I still can't eat chocolate. (That or I jinxed myself yesterday...) Got a bit carried away, I guess.Just need to remind myself it's only been a bit over a month & natural agents don't work like Rx drugs & need to be given time.Btw, for anyone who's unaware, here's some interesting info on grapefruit seed extract~"CONCLUSIONS: Plant-originated substances are highly gastroprotective probably due to enhancement of the expression of NOS I, NO release and an increase in gastric microcirculation."Influence of plant-originated gastroproteciive and antiulcer substances on gastric mucosal repair."CONCLUSIONS: The initial data shows GSE to have antimicrobial properties against a wide range of gram-negative and gram-positive organisms at dilutions found to be safe. With the aid of scanning transmission electron microscopy (STEM), the mechanism of GSE's antibacterial activity was revealed. It was evident that GSE disrupts the bacterial membrane and liberates the cytoplasmic contents within 15 minutes after contact even at more dilute concentrations."The effectiveness of processed grapefruit-seed extract as an antibacterial agent"Grapefruit seed extract (GSE) is truly a broad-spectrum natural antibiotic, capable of killing a wide variety of pathogens. Highly active against protozoa, bacteria, yeast and some viruses, it has been used for quite some time in the treatment of parasitic infections. It is nontoxic, generally hypoallergenic and can be administered for up to several months, which may be required to eliminate stubborn infections...GSE has been shown to be effective in treating hundreds of different organisms including: Shigella, Staphylococcus, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Giardia lamblia, Diplococcus pneumoniae, Haemophilus influenzae, Mycobacterium species, Campylobacter, Candida albicans, Escherichia coli, Streptococcus, Salmonella, Klebsiella, Proteus, Cholera, Chlamydia trachomatis, Trichomonas vaginalis, Legionella pneumoniae, Helicobacter pylori, Herpes simplex 1, Influenza A2, and measles virus. GSE has been shown to kill both gram-negative and gram-positive strains of bacteria."http://www.diagnose-me.com/treat/T223917.htmlI'm so incredibly HAPPY for you took20!!! (that soup sounds amazing...) And thx for the congrats, & esp for leading me back to GSE. I gave up on it too soon abt 6 yrs ago when I tried it, in liquid form....


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## Talissa

Hey Arnie, I take metamucil(2T, am & b4dinner), which is psyllium. When I can stock up, I get the healthfood store brands of psyllium which don't have sugar...I'm like my granny right now--gotta have my metamucil.







It's my goal to get off the stuff, but in the meantime, I'm pretty grateful...


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## 15221

Talissa, question..? When you had your last stool culture what was your balance of microbes, I was very Bifdo and to a lesser extent lacto difficient, but no pathogenic quantities were found. When I had my last one completed I was almost sure it was going to come back with a positive klebsbelia, but nada.. I was advised not to use any anti-microbials, I had already stocked up on Bactrim and naturalcides like GSE. I am in your camp about the the ecology of the GI tract, I do believe it is the root cause of most IBS cases, perhaps chronns and IBD as well. However the only way to prove it is successful for IBS is for us to be healthy, and symptom free....a tough thing to accomplish but people like you are leading the way....keep up the great posts....good luck


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## Talissa

Hi Ng, That must be pretty frustrating to have gotten rid of the kp only to still have problems...did you take an antibiotic to get rid of it? Have you checked to see if c difficile is resistant to it? In milder forms, the c diff can seem like IBS-D...What symptoms are you having?The GSDL has a separate test for C Difficile...maybe your lab is the same? And maybe you've got IBS-C & all this random speculation is just wasting space...







Do you still have the fatigue?When I took the CDSA late 2004, it showed citrobacter freundii at 4+, and klebsiella at 3+. Both are resistant bacteria to the Flagyl I took before getting chronic d(they're also resistant to the tetracycline I took for a yr as a teen)... I had low bifido at 1+ and no lacto. (you're not allowed to take probiotics before and during testing days) I haven't retested but may do so after more time on GSE. GSE also is "gastroprotective" due to its antiinflammatory effects on the gut wall. It's a flavonoid. I -think- I'd try it if I were you...Really depends on the symptoms. Just having low good bugs can change motility, lead to inflammation, etc...


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## Talissa

Btw, I've read how some bifidobacteria & lactobacteria are resistant to a ctn few antibiotics...but I can't find any studies done on how GSE affects the good bugs. I have found sites that CLAIM it doesn't affect the good microflora, but none have proof...Logic dictates GSE kills the good bugs, which is just another reason I take probiotics(I'll never stop)...but there's no proof.T-


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## administrator

This thread is being moved to the appropriate topic forum : SupplementsThank you for your cooperation.


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## Arnie W

Took20, I cannot remember when I last had beans or sweetcorn, though I'm planning to have some sweetcorn in the near future to check out the transit time.Talissa, I often take metamucil (usually with bentonite clay), but have read varying reports about not taking it with other meds or supps. It makes it a bit hard to juggle times as I'm on a big array of supps, so I'll have a rest from it for now.I'm wondering if some GSE brands are not as effective as others. I got Pure Encapsulations, as that was the only brand I could get from a site I was ordering other supps from, but it might pay to order one of the brands recommended on this site.


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## 15866

Arnie, I have been eating all the things I had to stop eating for so long! I began having food sensitivities to nitrites and nitrates around 2 years ago and tyramines 8 months ago. I have been adding these to my diet over the last month. It is SO wonderful! I had lots of tyramines today - strawberry jam on toast, cheese and even tomatoe based baked beans with lunch. I have a spoonful of metamucil each morning with breakfast. I've been taking that for years. I'm not sure if I really need it anymore since the GSE worked so well. The GSE I have is NutriBiotic Capsules Plus GSE 125mg. I notice it even has a website listed on the bottle : http://www.nutribiotic.comI buy it from a local natural type shop locally.


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## Arnie W

Took20, I was wondering about ordering the nutribiotic. I've found a site that can mail it overseas, so that would be my best option.I'm so glad that it is working so well for you people. There are many types of food that I cannot eat without suffering the consequences, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed.


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## 15866

Arnie, I haven't done a search for GSE online since I found it in my area. For years I have been ording Aloe Vera Gel Pills from a mail order company. I checked their catalog and was disappointed to find they didn't carry GSE. Good luck. If you do get some GSE please let us know if it works for you too. I was still taking 2 GSE pills a week but I think it's about time I can even quit those. I will always keep a bottle on hand in case I get sick or have any intestinal problems. I keep a bottle of Aloe Vera pills on hand too.


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## overitnow

For what it is worth:Several years ago I was given GSE by a naturopath as part of a liver cleanse. That might be the simplest method of locating it.Keep the faith, Talissa. Your body most likely has a significant amount of repairs to accomplish. Chocolate will come when you are ready for it.(And why don't threads on Immodium get moved to OTC? Oh, never mind.







)Mark


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## 15221

Hey Talissa I think you answered my question about the GSE affecting the Lacto and Bifdo, it might, but as long as you keep supplementing heavily I think maybe a month of treatment would be enough, depending on the bugs your killing... I went through Great plains laboratory for my last test, and they found no dysbiotic bacteria, nor any parasites, Giarda, Crypto..... I am sort of stuck right now so I will try the GSE for a couple of weeks see if it helps put me over the wall.....I don't know about taking somethings like GSE for too long, if you have microscopic intestinal fractures in your GI tract which most of us do with allergies, and severe IBS, need to rotate the products wew use or we end up getting reactions to them. I ended up being allergic to grapes, and olives because I used to take grape seed extract and used olive oil for all my cooking. So I have learned that rotating is important but extremely difficult when someone is in the sort of terrible shape I used to be....I still have a little fatigue I workout moderately hard, and my nervous system as well as every other system is still trying to heal. Finding the peices of the puzzle in my opinion revolve around eliminating allergens first while healing the epithelium with proper supplements....Probiotics are the key.....in returning our guts to the stage they were before we compromised them with anti-biotics and everything else we consume that is negative to health....but yes I did use Bactrim to kill off my Klebsbelia....with lots of probiotics afterwards....something the AMA knew 30 years ago but failed to let the rest of us know about...I guess they figured years ago that one size fit...or that they could not market yogurt cultures...I don't know but if they did I am sure it would have eliminated my living hell for the last 10 years.....simple but so long to understand....


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## Talissa

> quote:with lots of probiotics afterwards....something the AMA knew 30 years ago but failed to let the rest of us know about


Exactly what ticks me off the most. And very few docs are telling people today to counter the antibiotics w/ probiotics to prevent problems. I just told a student of mine about it, she's an educated American, mid-20s, & on antibiotics for a gum infection...she had no idea what probiotics are...


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## Talissa

I don't know if anyone's still following this thread now that's its baaaack in the caaaave...But I'm still doing very well. I take 3 GSE a day still, with high dose of Jarro-Dophilus before bed....I'm eating healthier whole foods again, like I have been for the past 7 years or so...It was fun(ALOT of fun!), going off track there though w/ the processed food...Now, I don't know if it was the chocolate that made me go more, or just high sugar consumption at one time...I have to keep the sugar down, not gone, but down, and I have no other intolerances...Which wasn't the case for a very very long time...It's great. Just slowly as time goes by, I've been able to add more back into my diet.I am concerned though w/ staying on the psyllium for so long...we'll see...So bye-bye for now, if anyone's oooout theeere!!Talissa


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## overitnow

Still here.We use a psyllium containing fiber mix here and I don't think it will be a bad thing. For what it is worth, it is contained in a heart supplement pack that I take, as the manufacturer feels it important to get our food through us to lower the amount of cholesterol that will be absorbed in the gut. I know that is not our particular problem; but their testing does not find it to be a problem, even in the long term. Just keep your liquids up.It is good to hear you are doing so well with this. Are there long term implications with the grapefruit seed?Cheers from a very wet Vancouver Island.Mark


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## Talissa

Hi Mark,How are you doing?Well, I can't find any MD who says its detrimental to take psyllium long term.(meaningless to me, of course) High dose does help slow transit time, incr SCFA's and positive n-butyrate levels....On the flip side I fill my entire day's req for fiber from the psyllium alone. Add my other dietary fiber from food...that's alot!....It can cause an imbalance in ctn minerals(zinc, iron, calcium),reduced enzyme funtion...I'm also concerned my body's so used to it, it won't be able to form a normal one on its own...is that irrational?







Just a feeling...The GSE is reportedly okay to take for chronic infections, as long as you replenish the probiotics. And its anti-inflammatory as well as antibact, anti-fungal, anti-viral, which I like alot...Have you had the surgery yet? Talissa


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## overitnow

Hi Talissa,Yup. I went to set an appointment at the Drs office yesterday and he had 15 min available so ushered me in, a quick snip, and ushered me out again. (What is all the broo-ha-ha about long wait lists in Canada? I think I'll have him replace all my joints the next time I am in for a physical.) So I'm sittin' on my stitches and will happily go back on my supplement tomorrow. Fortunately, my flight south is not until 2, today, which will give me an opportunity to empty out before hand. (I think I should have started on the Caltrate sooner, as I don't think it has had much of an opportunity to work. Then, again, the surgery was sooner than I expected.)I guess the only sad thing is that I, too, live with the irrational hope that this will one day be gone for good. Since I will continue to use the Provex as long as I have a functioning cardiovascular system, I'm ok with this; but it would be nice to eliminate the d, from the point of view of trying to find a real cure for at least my version of IBS. Anyway, glad that you are able to continue with the GSE indefinitely, even if you are starting to feel a bit like a bale of hay with all the fibre. Whatever works.Mark


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## 15670

To Took20,When you say "I still take 2 or 3 GSE a week ...", do you mean 2 or 3 capsules at one time (once weekly) ... or a single capsule, 2 or 3 times a week.Thanks so much.


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## 15221

Hey Folks, Mark I have a question for you, why do you think you are in remission and not cured...? Do you return to a state of dysbiosis once you stop your flavnoids....? If so have you ever had a determination about your GI tracts microbiological make up...? I started taking some Enzematic Therapy, berberine complex, it changed things already. Went from solid to loose and back to solid again....taking plenty of probiotics....I hope it will last....the improvements of course.....good luck to all....PS Talissa, I will probably try the B. Infantitis in a few weeks, see if I can further the healing process...it seems the body is trying to still settle down....my hunger pains are still too pronounced in the morning but hey I have to rember Rome or my new GI tract is not going to be re-built in a few days...later


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## Talissa

> quote:but it would be nice to eliminate the d, from the point of view of trying to find a real cure for at least my version of IBS.


I hear you...I don't know if I'm going to take the GSE indefinitely. Maybe 3 months at the 3/day, try to get rid of the chronic c freundii infection...and maybe still be left with chronic low-grade infalmmation?? If so, will have to focus more on high dose probiotics and natural antiinflammatories. Provex is your antiinflammatory...I'd rather need to take one natural anti -inflammatory the rest of my life than this fiber...Hay! lolNg, your post was GREAT to read. I'm glad you're seeing improvements...I've been researching all the diff commensal bacteria that can cause GI upset--intestinal inflammation & hyperpermeability...it's overwhelming. Very scattered... I know H pylori wasn't your bug, but I read from a good source that after that bacteria's been eradicated, it takes 6-12 months for the intestinal inflammation to resolve...It just got me thinking, abt you, all of us really. All the diff bacteria, some worse than others--kp is esp pro-inflammatory...I think you're going abt the treatment of your intestines very intelligently. Is this the product you're taking?Phyto-Bioticâ„¢Talissa


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## 15866

catsdeadnowI was taking 1 GSE capsule every few days.I have now quit them completely. I don't feel the need for them at all. If I come down with a virus or cold and have troubles with my intestines I may take 1 or 2 for a few days, otherwise, I don't need them at all.I started with 3 a day and just cut back little by little until I felt totally safe to quit them all together. In some searches I've found in the last few weeks, it says that you should use them until you feel you are healed and free of any yeast or bacteria - 3 months for me - then use them just if needed in the future. I still take 1 probiotic each morning right before breakfast and that should keep the good bacteria in me at all times.I am eating anything that I want now, whenever I want. It's absolutely WONDERFUL! 3 months, 1 week and 4 days! No problems at all.


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## 15670

Took20,Thanks for the very helpful info ... I wish you the very best.cats


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## 15670

PS - Took20,You say "use them until you feel you are healed and free of any yeast or bacteria - 3 months for me - then use them just if needed in the future".. Were you taking 3 caps per day for 3 months, and THEN began to reduce dosage? Sorry - thanks. cats


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## 15866

catsI started on Oct. 9th taking 1 capsule 3 times a day. I took 1 right before each meal. Another poster said she took hers on an empty stomach. Mostly depends on what the bottle (brand) states and if you do better on an empty stomach or like myself with a little something in you.I took 3 a day until the 2nd month. I had had IBS for 20 years so I wanted to make absolutely sure everything was killed off in my intestines. I probably could have cut back after the 1st month though. After the 2nd month I cut back to just a couple of capsules a week and now none.Most people will start noticing a change between 2 weeks and 4 weeks. Make sure you can take the grapefruit seed extract with any medication you might be on. There are several meds that can't be taken with GSE. Check with your doctor on that before starting GSE. The GSE will kill off yeast / bad bacteria and probiotics will put back in the good bacteria we need in our colon.I've found info where alot of people will do this "cleansing" on a regular basis - once or twice a year - just to get rid of the bad stuff.And the probiotics can be taken on a daily basis.


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## 15670

Took20,Thanks for the clarification, and your thoughtful advice and info.My problemo is yeast ... I start my yeast-eradication program Monday. GSE capsules will be a big part of it ... cats


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## 15221

Talissa, thanks for the encouragement...that is very interesting that Klebsbelia has such an inflammatory response...I felt it in every part of my body...mostly upper extremeties, sites of injury etc...The studies I read also validate your findings, also I am living proof. When I originally took the Bactrim I felt very good very shortly afterwards, I was taking the probiotics and enzymes, but I felt too good by the early Summer so I statre cheating with too many fruits and a little alcohol....body was in no way ready for that, allergic reaction set me back several months due to my own lack of knowledge about inflammatory memory of B cells, it can take a long while for the GI tract to forget about the insulting organisms....In the case of Chronns disease there is an enzyme diffeciency, and the inability to break down large carbohydrates is evident...I spent alot of time understanding Elaine Gotshall theory on this and God bless her she has saved thousands of people with her diet. Unfortunately my condition was even worse than the average Chronns patient, for a normal simple carbohydrate diet would not cure me, it had to be curtailed even more, and thanks to you Talissa and others who publish info on studies regarding the relationship we hae with the Micro flora in our GI tract are we able to make some sense of this maddening syndrome that the established medical communty has no real answers...it is appalling that something as mainstream as this is not a top priority....but it isn't, and probably never will be so like the father of medicine said heal thy self or is let thy food be thy medicine....Hippocrates what a guy....one other beef I have is why are we treated like second class buffoons on this web page....like were quacks or something....if we were touting drugs we would be held in higher esteem.....


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## 15221

Oh and Talissa that is the stuff I am taking, I was looking at a probiotic called OMX-12, a Japanese researcher of some kind has developed, it has the B Infantis probiotic and many others, looks pretty good, only thing that has kept me from taking it is the FOS, but I think my gut may soon be able to handle it....not very widely known of here though.....


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## Arnie W

I did a search for OMX-12 and found this link, which might interest some of you.http://www.crohns.net/page/C/PROD/Probiotic/OMX1060


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## Talissa

...And isn't it ironic that its the buffoons & quacks & crackerjacks treating this as a bacterial/inflammation/LGS problem, treating it naturally, are the ones seeing such improvements. I'd rather that any day & twice on Tuesdays than to be some miserable bloke here complaining &/or just angry in tone all the time, but expert in the best pharmaceuticals to swallow in a poor & often dangerous attempt to slap a band-aid over symptoms...despite the popularity of it all...I was popular in hs--it's over-rated.Thx for the link on the OMX Arnie! I'm very, very interested & they ship int'l(!) Look fwd to learning more abt it.Hey, since I've got more time right now I wanted to give you one link re: proinflammatory kp~J Mol Med. 2004 Mar"The reaction of the intestinal immune system to intestinal bacteria shows striking differences between various bacterial strains. Whereas Klebsiella pneumoniae induces a fierce proinflammatory reaction, the probiotic strain Lactobacillus rhamnosus has clear anti-inflammatory effect in gastrointestinal disease and allergy. The molecular basis for this dichotomy is poorly understood but is likely to involve different modulation of antigen-presenting dendritic cells (DC) by L. rhamnosus and K. pneumoniae... Thus our results strongly support the concept that differential modulation of DC explains the differences in the immune response to various bacterial strains and indicates that K. pneumoniae induces Th1 immune responses via DC(antigen-presenting dendritic cells.)"http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsumThere's that Th1 response again. Also~re: hypermeability("LGS") & kp~"BACKGROUND AND AIMS: Altered intestinal permeability is a key pathogenetic factor of idiopathic bowel inflammation...RESULTS: Colonisation with Escherichia coli, Klebsiella pneumoniae, and Streptococcus viridans significantly increased lumen to blood clearance of mannitol. Colonisation with Lactobacillus brevis had the opposite effect and reduced permeability to mannitol. Bacteroides fragilis did not induce significant changes. Permeability to dextran was not altered by any of the strains tested. CONCLUSIONS: Certain commensal bacteria can modify colonic wall permeability to luminal substances.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsumThinking "out loud" now....My CDSA said that the 3+ Kp found was non-pathogenic, while the Citrobacter freundii 4+ was pathogenic...From all I've been reading about kp, its hard to believe its 3+ presence is doing no harm. I'm beginning to think Great Smokies might be falling behind in the research, or kp is only pathogenic if 4+ or higher, or there are diff strains of kp. Ie, ctn strains of E coli are probiotic(antiinflammatory). And maybe, probably, it just doesn't matter. Its the big picture of dysbiosis/inflammation to treat more than the specific bug to zero in on..."the more I learn, I realize the less I know..."


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## Talissa

Have been searching for good personal experiences reported by those who've taken probiotic OMX(so far, unfortunately all bad, no help, but very $$$--maybe due to the FOS), but I came across a website~The Marshall Protocol...speaking of the Th1 response...Anyone hear of this or go to their forum?"What is the Marshall Protocol?The Marshall Protocol is a curative treatment for diseases having a TH1 type immune response. Patients having been diagnosed with one or more of a wide range of diseases have been successfully treated using this protocol. It works by enabling the immune system to destroy the intracellular bacteria that are thought to be the root cause of the illness."http://marshallprotocol.com/forum11/Reading thru the posts, I'm thinking we'd fit rt in there...case in point, there's no need to explain "die off", it's referred to as the "herx."


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## 15221

Yeah I can believe it Tallissa, the OMX- SOunds to good to be true...I think the studies of B-Infantis are promising, but trying to find probiotics without FOS is still difficult....the Align might be the way to go after all....Hey Arnie, hope your doing better...also Talissa, I think your right about the levels of pathogenic bacteria, as long as the bad bacteria is low your going to have a level of dysbiosis, so in turn the GSE and Berberine will help mitigate those slightly unbalanced microbes, while building up the healthy ones....not only that but getting the good bacteria to stick to your gut wall while peeling of the bad guys is another job for anti-bactericidals like GSE see if I had listened to you guys a little while ago and started with the Grapefruit seed extract I would have been better off, but see the folks at GSDL and GPL don't tell you this either, all they say is no anti-microbials are neccessary, well that is not neccessarily true...even the cutting edge laboratories don't know so forget about mainstream docs it's every man woman and child for themselves when it comes to this stuff...I want to change topics here a little, all ties together in a weird way though. Autism has a big group of alternative resources working on treatments, one of the area also revolves around the GI tract....its unbelievable the amount of science that is out there but it does not make it to the General Docs who deal with the autistic kids....I found a natropath who shed much light on the issues of glutamate in the body...for IBS it is ok to take tons of glutamine to help heal the GI tract, but to a kid with excess levels of glutamate and with Autism your asking for trouble...My heart goes out to anyone with an autistic child, the causes are more mind boggeling than IBS...One other thing, the whole Chronic Fatigue Issue, TH-10 or TH-12 whatever it is I read up on Dr.. Cheneys work very mind opening....the issue that the bacteria can elicit this doward spiral is tremendous, It is no wonder that when I had my blood levels for viruses checked they were showing many active antibodies...the body was in a full eradication mode for bacteria, which will shut down your viral defenses after a long while, Dr. Dantini helped me on that....The body has enough problems dealing with viruses when healthy because they try to mimic bacterias.....it is facinating stuff but it scares the pants off me that I had all this #### going on....then throw a little of Dr. Adamos theory on O positive blood type diets and the reaction of antigenic properties of food upon different blood types and my mind gets so bewildered that like you Tallissa the more I know the less I really know what the hell happened to me....for now I am just happy to be at the stage I am at....







If you get healed Tallissa I will help you write your book....







Have a good weekend


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## Talissa

> quote:If you get healed Tallissa I will help you write your book..


How did you know??







That actually would be alot of fun. I can't believe I could read about bacteria, IL-10, IL-12, Th1 & Th2, Nitric Oxide(NO), B cells, etc ALL DAY, riveted...The more I read the more convincing it is that the low-grade inflammation causing IBS symptoms (read http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum ) can be brought on by low-grade infection &/or dysbiosis...Everything I'm learning points backs up my beliefs from the start & to the following being true~"It is no longer acceptable to suggest that the cause of IBS in someone has been caused by anxiety, stress, or by a psychological abnormality. Such concepts are now out of date...Hence, currently, the most likely cause of IBS would appear to be a chronic infection of the luminal bacteria which live within the bowel..." http://www.cdd.com.au/html/expertise/diseaseinfo/ibs.htmlAnd IMO, we all have diff types of infections, to diff degrees, and this is why there's no one-size-fits-all remedy...With this in mind, I'm increasing my GSE dose to 2 pills(250 mg) 3 xs/day, to see if I'll see an even better response...(I also looked up GSE in 2 books gathering dust on my shelf, and both recommend this dosage...we'll see.)You touched on an awful lot of interesting topics ng--but re: L-glutamine...it's also bad to take if you react to MSG(like me). I read years ago that it's very similar structurally to MSG, able to induce similar responses...Dr. Mercola talks abt that too...Btw, here's a very generalized discussion mainstream abt how bacteria, parasites, viruses can cause mental problems--from depression to OCD to autism~http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3540627


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## 15221

Hey Talissa, a little info on Glutamate, Glutamine, glad I am ok with that...still on the Berberine, Weekend was a little shakey, not as good as last week, different symptoms though, as always the symptoms change. Small intestines mellow out and the large act up a little....still I am feeling like I am making slow progress.... One note with the psyllium, it can have some negative impact on some of your bacteria.....Elaine and the SCD crew laid out the principles of, some is good, but too much may be feeding the wrong microbes in an area not used to seeing such amounts of microbes....I stopped taking it for that reason, also other forms of bulk fibers that are too complex of a carbohydrate for the body to break down......Also I will find a link I had before abount Mental illness and how this one Princeton Professor did a study long ago that could link physiological processes to many common mental issues, the Biophysical influenced behavior process was upheld in his theory....weather or noy he could reverse the problems was another story...he treated criminals in his study and measured their changes in personality......quite impressive....do some searches and your bound to find him and his clinic outside of Chicago where he does diagnostic testing for young persons who seem to have unexplained mental issues and he sees much more long lasting improvements in vitamin and mineral therapy than the rest of the quacks do with drugs.... OK keep on keeping on ExcitotoxinsGlutamate is the main excitatory neurotransmitter in the body. It is essential for learning, and for both short-term and long-term memory. It is also the precursor to the inhibitory neurotransmitter, GABA. GABA is a calming neurotransmitter, and is essential for speech.Problems occur if the normal process of regulation of glutamate malfunctions and if toxic levels of this excitatory neurotransmitter build up in the synaptic junctions. The brain requires sufficient levels of oxygen and energy to remove excess glutamate. However, glutamate release leads to the release of insulin, which results in decreased glucose levels. The amount of glucose in the brain regulates the removal of excess glutamate from the synapses. Therefore, a drop in blood glucose disrupts this removal process and allows the build up of toxic glutamate. In fact, conditions of hypoglycemia, or low calorie/starvation conditions induce the release of glutamate and reduce the ability to remove excess levels of glutamate from the brain. This excess glutamate depletes glutathione. Glutathione is one of the most powerful antioxidants found in the body and helps to protect neurons from damage. Glutatione depletion consequently leads to the death of additional neurons.Glutamate has six different types of receptors to which it can bind in the brain. One of these receptors, the NMDA receptors, is tied to calcium transport as its mode of action. In the case of the NMDA receptors, the release of excess glutamate triggers an inflammatory cascade that results in the death of neurons by the major influx of calcium into the nerve until it results in neural cell death. Normal levels of calcium result in normal neuron functioning. However, excessive levels of calcium make it impossible for the neuron to rest; the neuron continues to fire without stopping, causing the release of inflammatory mediators, the release of more glutamate, thus resulting in more calcium influx. The high intracellular levels of calcium also lead to high levels of nitric oxide and peroxynitrite, causing damage to the energy producing apparatus of the cells. Magnesium is able to modulate the calcium flow, as is zinc. However, zinc is a double-edged sword as it is also able to activate glutamate release via the non-NMDA glutamate receptors.Although these receptors are called "glutamate receptors", any of the excitatory amino acids are able to bind to the receptors and cause excitotoxin damage. The toxic potential of these excitatory amino acids has been suggested to be proportional to their ability to excite neurons. These excitatory amino acids include glutamate, aspartate, and to a lesser extent cysteine and homocysteine.Glutamate and aspartate are common as food additives as well as naturally occurring components of a large number of foods. In cells, glutamate and aspartate can be synthesized from each other. The two main food additives that are sources for excitotoxins are MSG (monosodium glutamate) and aspartame (nutrasweet).High levels of glutamate and aspartate are found naturally in protein rich foods, including very high levels in wheat gluten, and milk casein. While these amino acids are necessary for normal brain function, excess amounts of them create a wide range of bodily damage.Body systems that have been affected by glutamate toxicity include effects on white blood cells (elevations in the levels of eosinophils,), effects on blood vessels (causing migraines and reduced regulation of blood pressure), and inhibition of the conversion of glutamate to GABA.In addition, high levels of excitatory amino acids, and low levels of glutathione have been associated with a number of neurodegenerative disorders. The sites in the brain that have been reported to be damaged by excitotoxins include the hypothalamus, the hippocampal neurons, and the Purkinje neurons, among others. Notably, damage to the Purkinje neurons has been associated with autistic type behavior.Excess levels of glutamate have been definitely implicated in a range of neurodegenerative diseases, including Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease, Huntington's chorea, stroke, Multiple sclerosis, and ALS. In the case of autism, irregularities related to glutamate have been observed. In addition, glutamate, glutamic acid and aspartate and aspartic acid were found to be elevated in individuals exhibiting autistic behavior relative to controls.While there have been reports that the density of AMPA-type glutamate receptors is decreased in autism, this may be due to receptor recycling as a function of glutamate binding rather than an actual lack of receptors. Cells are constantly in the process of selecting and recycling receptors. Recycling occurs, and is more complex in neurons. In neurons recycling is complicated by the fact that internalized proteins have the possibility of returning to their surface of origin or to a second plasma membrane domain. This would seem likely in this case, for although the receptor density was decreased, the mRNA levels of glutamate AMPA receptors were significantly increased in autism.Predisposing Factors to Excitotoxin DamageChildren with autistic type behavior have often been described as exceedingly intelligent, even to the extreme point of being considered savants in particular areas. Dr. Tsien and his collaborators have demonstrated a correlation between glutamate receptors and superior ability in learning and memory. By overproducing a component of one of the glutamate receptors they were able to increase the level of glutamate binding. This was the first demonstration of a relationship between increased glutamate/glutamate receptors and higher intelligence. The down side of the enhanced level of glutamate was an increased risk of stroke and seizure activity. This work suggests a potential correlation between intelligence and glutamate levels. It also points to the potential increased susceptibility to excitotoxin damage due to excess glutamate/glutamate receptor activity as a consequence of enhanced intelligence.Autistic type behavior is four times more common in males than females. This gender related susceptibility to autistic behavior may also be mediated by glutamate and GABA levels. Dr. McCarthy and her collaborators have studied the role of glutamate and GABA in brain differentiation between males and females. Overall, they have found greater levels of neuronal excitation in the brains of developing males than in females, and that these differences are related to glutamate and GABA neurotransmission. These differences are modulated by testosterone, with levels of glutamate and GABA being twice as high in the male brain as compared to the female brain during early development. During puberty there are also gender-associated differences in glutamate and GABA. Glutamate and GABA levels have been shown to be related to the release of lutenizing hormone. In addition, fluctuations in GABA levels have been implicated in symptoms of PMS. It is possible to speculate that higher levels of these neurotransmitters in developing males makes them more susceptible to excitotoxin damage, leading to autistic behavior. Conversely, females may have a secondary pathway for glutamate /GABA that is menstrual cycle related. This fallback pathway could protect females from over expression and excitotoxin damage to the glutamate/GABA system.Vitamin K Deficiency/Sugar DeregulationIn all cases of neurological inflammation leading to autistic behavior there seems to be an initial insult to the system, which results in a reduction of normal flora in the intestinal tract, with a subsequent loss of Vitamin K. Most often this seems to occur as a result of chronic streptococcal ear infections, the antibiotic use that follows, and a lack of re-population of the intestines with normal flora. Alternatively, or in addition, excess stomach acid and insufficient bile (due to decreased liver function) creates a situation of relative acid excess and acid pH in the intestinal tract. (Ingestion of glutamate, as MSG, itself has been reported to cause excess acid and heartburn.) This would create an environment that is conducive to yeast, E.coli, and streptococcal overgrowth and non-ideal for normal protective bacterial flora. This imbalance in normal flora can be further exacerbated by the excitotoxin glutamate. Excess glutamate has been shown to increase the survival of enterohemorrhagic E.coli, particularly under acidic conditions.While Vitamin K is a fat-soluble vitamin, it is not stored like the other fat-soluble vitamins; consequently it needs to be absorbed on a daily basis. Normally this occurs when the bacteria in the GI tract process leafy greens. If however, the normal flora of the GI tract has been disturbed there will be a Vitamin K deficiency. Most likely, all children are born deficient in Vitamin K, as it does not cross the placenta.Vitamin K is essential for clotting, to prevent excessive bruising and bleeding, for bone and teeth health, for sugar regulation, and hence to control hypoglycemic related anxiety attacks. One of the highest levels of vitamin K in the body is in the pancreas, which is critical for sugar regulation in the body. Most children suffering from autistic behavior seem to have imbalances in their ability to tolerate sugars. In addition to the brain, the other area of the body that is able to concentrate the excitotoxin glutamate is the pancreas, which would result in further damage to the pancreas and sugar regulation.Vitamin K serves a role to react enzymatically with glutamate and calcium, to ensure proper placement of the calcium where it belongs in bone and teeth. In addition, Vitamin K is a cofactor for the conversion of glutamate to gamma carboxyglutamate. Lack of vitamin K would then create a cycle of deregulation in the glutamate/calcium pathway leading to further neurological inflammation.Glutamate also leads to the release of insulin, which results in decreased blood sugar levels. While glutamate serves a vital function as an excitatory neurotransmitter, if excess glutamate is not removed from the synapses between the neurons it can be toxic to the neurons. The amount of glucose in the brain regulates the removal of excess glutamate from the synapses. Therefore, a drop in blood glucose disrupts this removal process and allows the build up of toxic glutamate.One can see the cascade of events that occurs, beginning with excess ingested glutamate, that can bind to glutamate receptors in the pancreas, which then causes an increase in insulin, decreasing the blood level of glucose, that in turn prevents the removal of excess glutamate in the synapses, resulting in neurotoxicity from ingested glutamate. This creates the roller coaster of high/low glutamate and sugar without the proper regulation of this process by nutrients such as vitamin K.Blood Type/Streptococcal InfectionThe A-B-O system for blood typing is dependent on the blood group antigens that are expressed on the outer surface of an individuals' red blood cells. Those with blood type A have NAC-gal (n-acetyl galactosamine) as the predominant blood group antigen, and those with type B have galactose as their primary antigen. Those with blood type O have fucose as a predominant antigenic determinant on their red blood cells. In addition, to a lesser extent the NAC-glu (n-acetyl glucosamine) antigen would be accessible


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## Talissa

Wow, that's alot to digest...ok, not that funny. Thanks. Fascinating stuff. I found the original link. Will wrap my brain around it some more later when I've got more time.Funny how the universe works, though. I recently pulled out an old book I'd forgotten I had, Gut Reactions(Kellman, MD). He recommends GSE...as well as NAC & NADH...he doesn't mention vit K though.I've been able to eat more & more w/o having D reaction since on the GSE. Last night I made soup using beef broth from the can as the base. First time I'd tried MSG in a long while...no reaction...has to be a good sign for the gut & the brain, no? Doesn't mean I'll be dining on the stuff ev pm, but it's just good to know in case I break down & have some soy sauce...T-


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## Talissa

OT...I went w/o taking psyllium for the entire day yesterday. I was a bit afraid to eat! I did of course, but just not as much as usual...I ate no wheat. This am, I had 2 trips w/ loose bms and then had to go do 2 hours of exercise...old memories came back of cramping & such during pilates...but I was just fine. Whew, esp since I teach it now w/ all eyes on me... Big relief! Will try eating more today than yesterday, with more fiber from food, see how it goes.Am still taking the GSE and am going to order the metagenics probiotics along with Florastor. I don't know if the Jarro-Dophilus EPS is strong enough. (that and I came ax a post from Amnegrl, who I miss!, saying last April she's 100% after taking the metagenics lactoviden & bifoviden.) Florastor is hit(major good results) or miss w/ people, but seems to do well when taken along w/ Lactobacteria..They're pricey probiotics, but I'll have some extra $ w/o the fiber...







The guessing game continues...


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## 15221

Hey Talissa, Good luck without the corn husks, I think you will be fine, I only eat salads and veggies for fiber, not constipated very much so not an issue for me anyway....I know what you mean about the trial and error...I am stopping the Berberine as it seems the benefits have stopped for now so on to the next stage....heavy probiotics for a while....Natures way has some decent stuff, primadolpholis which has bifdus and L-reuteri, I still take metagenics but I honestly belive the flaw with their products is the encapsulation, it would be better if it could survive the thrip till it made it at least to the small intestine, the same with custom probiotics...but the align and natures way probiotics have better encapsulation....least I think so....every day we write another chapter...


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## 15221

Just ordered the Align 2 bottles so hopefully I will have it by the weekend....look forward to some more trials...I checked out the Florastor, that is a yeast Sacchromycin Boulardi or something like that, I have 2 bottle of it sitting in my fridge, could not take it, made me worse, that was a Jarrows equivalent....Talissa, I think Iherb ships anywhere in the world....have you ever checked out their probiotics....their Natren stuff sounds pretty good....I might order it next..... Wonder if any of you have ever heard of EM-1....home made industrial strength probiotics brew....I brewed my own batch last Summer and it made my guts move like rocket fuel, but many have used it to some benefit....mainly Chronns patients...anyway it is mostly used for farm and industrial uses...I poured into my garden after that, supposedly great for the soil......just wish my guts were as easy to transform as the Earths.......


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## Talissa

Hey ng,I'm glad you're trying the Align! Fingers are crossed...will have to look up the EM-1. Rocket fuel, sounds like fun! I've been reading & reading the past 2 days for personal stories abt success with probiotics... (I tried Jarrows s boulardii as well, long time ago, w/o seeing any diff.) From what I've read the peeps taking Florastor are the only ones who see a big diff, Jarrrows' brand is often mentioned aside as not working. And when they combine it w/ a lactic acid producing probiotic mix, it hits home...There is some die-off the first few days. When my orders get here, I'm going to high dose the Jarro-Dophilus with the Florastor, plus take a probiotic powder mix by Nature's Way w/ Reuteri in it, and binfantis, etc. It has some shaky additives, but its also helping peeps(you helped change my mind abt Metagenics...plus, I couldn't find many good testimonies on it on other sites, except the sites selling it.)So, I guess we both can report on our experiences w/ diff probiotics & compare notes, eh?Re: "corn" husks...







I've just strolled thru pubmed & have thankfully! learned that psyllium(ispaghula seed)helps inhibit pro-inflammatory mediators along "the wall", helps those w/ UC, incr's bile salt absorption, absorbs toxins, feeds the good bacteria(so this FOS my body likes...) & it also helps glycemic response. With watery D, this is esp helpful...And watery D I do have. I forgot all abt how bad it used to be. I wasn't nearly as bad as I've been in the past. But I've taken way too many trips to the loo the past 2 days, it smells, and eating is suddenly sort of intimidating...Oh, I also read psyllium doesn't cause bowel dependency. Very good.Because, seriously, who needs this? I've read most peeps in remission do so using several diff natural supp's(except you Mark, lucky dog...), so I guess I'll keep shoveling in the hay & husks...Why stop being a normal? I liked it...







Yes, I still want to someday stop w/ it--but the day hasn't come just yet, obviously.And because of the GSE, I was eating anything I want w/o having attacks. There's that high sugar problem, but no one is supposed to eat high sugar anyways...So, that's my story & I'm sticking to it...


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## Arnie W

I have queried in the past on this board about using isphagula at the same time as other supplements and medication. The following link states that it should be taken 3 hours apart from medication, so I actually find it a bit too much of a hassle to take regularly, because I take all sorts of supplements during the day and find it difficult to have a time gap.http://www.medicinenet.com/isphagulapsylli...ral/article.htmYet I have never seen any warnings on the labels of psyllium products I've bought. I work in a psychiatric hospital ward and have noticed that psyllium is dispensed at the same time as prescribed medication, so I don't know what to believe.


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## Arnie W

I just found another site which gives a shorter waiting time.http://www.gicare.com/pated/psyllium.htmI also looked at another site which said that there is no need to worry about drug interaction. So maybe I'm worrying too much.


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## Talissa

Hey Arnie, Yeh, stop worrying so much







It's hard when you read conflicting articles/advice. You got me concerned w/ that as well before when you mentioned it. All I could find was that it "may decrease mineral absorption." Like they were just surmising...However, here's a study done in 02 on diabetics~"CONCLUSIONS: The results obtained indicate a beneficial therapeutic effect of psyllium (Plantaben) in the metabolic control of type 2 diabetics as well as in lowering the risk of coronary heart disease. We also conclude that consumption of this fibre does not adversely affect either mineral or vitamin A and E concentrations. Finally, for a greater effectiveness, psyllium treatment should be individually evaluated."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsumAnd another benefit--here's an old & (strange)study that concludes psyllium helps lower ph(which is good for the good guys, bad for the baddies)~"Psyllium-fed cultures had lower pH (P less than 0.01) and higher VFA concentration (P less than 0.01) and beta-glucuronidase activity (P less than 0.10) than cellulose-fed cultures. The ratio of anaerobes to aerobes was lower (P less than 0.01) in psyllium-fed than in cellulose-fed cultures. These results indicate that feces can be used as an inoculum source for in vitro studies of changes in colonic microbial metabolism due to diet, and that dietary fiber source affects the colonic microbial population and metabolism."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum


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## Talissa

ps...If you/anyone starts taking it...Remember once you hit the max dose of 4 T divided of psyllium, give it a week for your body to adjust for diarrhea control, or 2 weeks to adjust for constipation...That's acc to Heathers ...com.For me, it was worth the initial "discomfort"...


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## 15221

Hey Tal and Arnie, seems we are the only ones on this thread anyway...I understand the need for the Psyllium, I used it for many years....need to have some vegtable matter that is capable of feeding the bacteria. If I do re-call most vegtable matter is hard to completely break down, so we should have residule matter feeding the GI tract good guys....I am sorry to hear your like me Tal, 1 step forward one sometimes two steps back.....really is a difficult matter...I am still so close to trying the antibiotics again as I feel it was the quickest time period for me as far as improvements are concerned, it is almost as though the gut is on a scale most of the time tipped towards the negative therefore still exhibiting symptoms, but the clinical assement is saying no its pretty darn close to as normal as one can get......I think in our case we have to be able to maintain a constant positive reaction or the cascade of symptoms can easily get the gut to stay in the same mode of disruption. The quick emptying, the motility rates the pressure on the cells releasing all the enzymes and chemicals it really is a process wher everything has to go right for the symptoms to stop and if the reflex or routine of the GI tract as whole does not change than it make it even more difficult to reach what we are looking for which is a cure....I have come so far and to be stymied like this is maddening.....







SO anyway please chime in because I am just letting off some steam, hoping for a moment of understanding......I keep wanting to think of as this.....We either were insulted in our GI tract by disease or man made disruption......how do you get to the point where the GI tract is so insulted or disrupted that dysbiosis can occur....? Only at that point, unless we have altered our mucosa so much through mutation to toxin or bacteria, will we be able to start a new....so close but so far......Have a good weekend.....


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## 13364

> quote:Originally posted by Noguts:Hey Tal and Arnie, seems we are the only ones on this thread anyway...


Apart from us silent interested lurkers.....Since Talissa above mentioned Heather's site, isn't she (H) a bit down on psyllium, since she reckons it can cause more problems from gas production than it alleviates?


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## cat crazy

> quote:Originally posted by Took20Years:"Make sure you can take the grapefruit seed extract with any medication you might be on. There are several meds that can't be taken with GSE. Check with your doctor on that before starting GSE. The GSE will kill off yeast / bad bacteria and probiotics will put back in the good bacteria we need in our colon."T20yearsDo you think it's ok to take gse with vsl#3 probiotics. I am on a trial study for this probiotic and wondered if taking gse would mean it's also killing the good bacteria in vsl#3.I tried gse only for 2 days and found the d increased so stopped it on the second day only. Is more d kind of normal and is it the die off of the bad guys. Do you think I should still take gse and give it a chance and also should I take it hours apart from the probiotic or it is okay to take at same time as the probiotics?


"


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## Talissa

Hey mekis, I just wish I'd read the link Arnie posted above abt fiber before reading Heather's site 4 years ago~From Arnie's gicare link~"The major side effect of all the soluble fibers, including psyllium, is the development of intestinal gas or flatus. It is the beneficial bacteria in the colon that create intestinal gases from certain food sources such as soluble fiber. So you may be limited in how much psyllium you can tolerate by this side effect. Insoluble fiber, found in wheat bran and cereals, does not have this side effect. "...You know because of Heathers for the most part exc advice on fiber therapy for IBS ,psyllium/metamucil original was the last fiber I tried. It was the only one that worked for me. I even wasted a ton of $ on her Acacia fiber.When I was reading up on psyllium just recently, I noticed that the sites not selling psyllium or any fiber all say an initial increase in gas will occur w/ psyllium, but your body will adjust. Just like probiotics. All these people here who try probiotics for 3 days or something & then stop because of incr gas/diarrhea/whatever, they just don't get it. Our intestines have to adjust. If it's highly over populated w/ the bad guys, the reaction is worse--this goes for probiotics as well as antibacterials/antifungals. You have to be patient...(yes, Hanna, I'm talking to you too







)Btw, Hanna, I've read people have great results when they take vsl#3 along with Florastor(a good yeasst that helps fight bad yeast). It has to be Florastor. I read on another post Hanna that you tried the SCD but lost too much weight on it. Me too! Btw, since I've been taking the antibacterial(GSE) for a good amt of time now, when the probiotics get here, I'm just going to high dose on those and go off the GSE. See what happens...I'm personally back to 2 solid movements in the am, no stinks, no rumbles.







I'm fairly ctn I have lymphocytic colitis as a result of my giardia infection 8 yrs ago...Ironically, in the back of my refrigerator(who knew???), I found a bottle of Primodophilus Reuteri caps(Nature's Way) which I just ordered in powder. Lots of people have had good experiences with both, but one lady got to normal taking 3 caps ev night before bed for a month. So until my order gets here, I'll be taking the GSE caps during the day & then the 3 caps Reuteri at night(its good until 2007)...Last night, I went out for chinese with friends, really pushed it. I actually had only one formed stool this am... It's all good. I'm rambling, but for "full disclosure", along w/ the probiotics I ordered, I also ordered a quercetin/bromelain mix. It was suggested in "the book", Mark's Provex CV has these (though its along w/ others), and when I pubmed'd quercetin the proof of its antiinflammatory mechanism is clearly well documented. Bromelain is also slightly anti inflammatory, but its main purpose when combined w/ quercetin is to help break the quercetin down for metabolism. Quercetin alone is very difficult for the body to assimilate...You take it between meals. Acc to "the book", it helps clear out inflammatory proteins from the blood stream...Good luck w/ the vsl3 Hanna!!(If you google "vsl 3" + "I was", you'll get lots of personal experiences taking this probiotic...)mekis, you're not going to get all over-aggressive on us now that you're taking the poison are you??? Pls no...







Hi ng







"See" you guys later, T-


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## Talissa

Remembered this article~~Re: GSE, probiotics, and "the herx"~"Dr. Leo Galland, M.D., has used GSE extensively in his practice for intestinal parasitism and chronic candidiasis. He has commented that: "I have several patients in whom this product alone helped control chronic candidiasis when no other medication was tolerated or effective. In the treatment of intestinal protozoan infections . . . drugs are generally so toxic that they cannot be administered for prolonged periods of time, whereas GSE can be administered for weeks or months; prolonged treatment being essential for the cure of chronic protozoan infections . . . I have had some immunosuppressed patients taking the preparation for over a year with no apparent development of side effects or drug resistance." For those with candidiasis, it is best to begin GSE therapy with a one week cleansing diet. This means to avoid sugar- rich or fermented foods, coffee, cigarettes, and alcohol. For a more detailed explanation of candidiasis and the appropriate foods to eat, refer to AHSJ articles on Candida. ...Appropriate dietary restrictions help lessen the "Herxheimer reaction", which is the reaction caused by the release of toxins when pathogenic microbes "die-off". These symptoms may result in increased fatigue, nausea, headache, etc. These common reactions usually occur only in the first few days of treatment, depending on the toxicity level of the person's body. To aid in the anti-Candida treatment, Dr. Sachs recommends: ". . . six to eight capsules of a high potency, high quality probiotic containing Lactobaccillus and Bifidobacterium, etc. Garlic and Aloe Vera assist the detoxification process . . . diet and the GSE treatment can begin simultaneously, and continue for at least three to four weeks. "GSE should be taken between meals. If irritating to the digestive tract, it may be taken with meals or in powder (capsule, tablet) form..."http://www.appliedhealth.com/ahs_digest/digest040101.html


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## 13364

I guess by poison you mean the happy pills ?







Well, they've done nowt yet, but the point of them is as an indirect prokinetic - we'll see.I was thinking about the insoluble fibre biz having perused Heather's site. Couldn't find any acacia- derived stuff hereabouts, but was tempted to order some. Maybe after all, I'll try the psyllium again. Previously, it just acted as a laxative, but without affecting bloating or my idiosyncratic pseudo-heartburn. Maybe I'll try a different source & give it longer trial on top of the Paxil.Now back to the long grass for a spot of lurking....


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## Arnie W

I had hoped that a combination of low-starch diet, gse and probiotics would have given me some results, but it hasn't happened - yet.I have already ordered the Nutribiotic brand of gse as well as Nature's Way Reuteri, so it will be interesting to see if that makes any difference.I think I'll trial taking the gse between meals too.


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## cat crazy

Talissa I've been on the trial study for vsl#3 for 2 weeks and 3 days now. I think it's the real stuff and not the placebo, But no major noticable change yet. Yes less bloating but stools still pretty much on d side. I will try the gse again but only on a week's vac time, cannot afford to take a heavy hit with the herx factor when I'm working. Seems like it's a success with many. Heather's acacia fibre did not work for me and the regular psyllium husk fibre works better, however have not attempted to take upto 4 tbsp yet, can only handle 1 tsp a day for the time being, somehow more fibre means more d for me. Fibre is very tricky for my gi tract, has to be the right amount or more trouble.


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## Talissa

Hanna, I'm the same way. I had to jump right to 2 T am & 2 T b4 dinner...no building up. For me, slowly building up was just bulkier D. The first 2 days going rt to 4 T were somewhat uncomfortable, but it was solid so I didn't mind. But everyone's different...


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## 20250

Talissa, Fiber? Does it have a cleansing affect at first? or just bulk? I'm remembering when I first started taking it my stools were greasy looking







and stinkier than usual, but after a few weeks BMs wre looking more like a normal BM. I read somewhere on here that fiber cleans the inside of the colon as it bulks up, and I was wondering if it was getting rid of my yeast problem at the time, as that was when I did my stool samples.Thanks







Brett


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## Talissa

Hey B, Well as far as I know, its the insoluble fiber that has the cleansing effect along the wall & its the soluble fiber that does the bulking & absorbing toxins for removal. Psyllium is either 2:1 soluble fiber as in metamucil or 3:1 in pure psyllium. I can't remember if fibercon has any insoluble fiber.When I took the CDSA stool test, I had to go off fiber & probiotics for 2 days b4 the test & during the 3 testing days to ensure test accuracy...


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## 15670

Hey Tallisa,I've also been peering through the weeks over the past few weeks - essentially because the knowledge level of so many of you is bloody intimidating ...Anyhoo, would you mind expanding on the following statement you made:I'm fairly ctn I have lymphocytic colitis as a result of my giardia infection 8 yrs ago...Lab tests identified I had giardia ... and also massive yeast overgrowth. To start out, I took FLAGYL for a week (haven't had stool re-tested), and am now taking NYSTATIN.- What exactly is lymphocytic colitis- what are its major symptoms - is it always an automatic result of long-standing giardia- how does one test for it- how is it treatedThanks so much.I'm very humbly passing along some info on a very celebrated/highly-regarded probiotic that I did not buy, in the hopes it adds to your ever-swelling knowledge base. The iFlora products tested highest by ConsumerLabs, apparently - and refridgeration isn't required (a key reason I chose not to order it). http://www.sedonalabs.com/products/iflora_pwder.html http://www.mnwelldir.org/docs/nutrition/digestion02.htmAnyone who's a member of ConsumerLabs can access the full study they conducted ... not very encouraging. cats


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## 15670

- following excerpted from 2nd link mentioned above: If you go to www.consumerlabs.com, you will see that they tested 25 probiotic products (you will have to become a paid member to see the entire study). Of those 25, 8 failed the test with less than 1% of their claimed live bacteria. Six had only a few thousand live bacteria from the advertised 1 billion. iFlora came out on top with 16 strains, 4 times greater than the runner up, and 15 billion cells per capsule. The runner up in this category had 2.4 billion cells. And Sedona Labsâ€™ advanced micro-encapsulation process keeps the cultures alive at room temperature. Still, Iâ€™ll probably put it in the fridge.My favorite form of probiotics is Sedona Labs' iFlora. Since discovering them, and since the Consumer Labs testing, we've found other probiotic formulas that are just as good as iFlora, like the Probiotic Advantage which has an "enteric" coating to protect the probitics from stomach acid. There are some good probiotics out there, but they are much more expensive than the Sedona Labs products. And, Simply the Best gives our readers an even better deal, so what could possible be better?IFlora 4Kids contains the six strains children need to build a healthy immune system. Here they are:Bifidobacterium longum â€" helps eliminate nitrates that are found in digested foods. Nitrates can turn into nitrites, which are carcinogenic. Bifidobacterium lactis BB-12 â€" helps resist acid digestion and promotes bowel regularity while suppressing inflammation. Bifidobacterium bifidum â€" inhibits rotavirus replication and helps fight off intestinal disturbances. Lactobacillus paracasei â€" promotes healthy bowel function and builds the immune system Lactobacillus acidophilus â€" first line of defense against invaders to the small intestine and prevents pathogens from lining the intestinal wall. Lactobacillus rhamnosus â€" helps increase resistance to yeast overgrowth and urinary tract pathogens. If your child needs antibiotics, then s/he needs them. But be careful not to use them for every sniffle that comes along. And if antibiotics are administered, you must help to rebuild that babyâ€™s intestinal flora. iFlora 4Kids is the best product I can think of for this purpose.For you people fighting off a systemic yeast problem, here is the product of the century: iFlora Complete Yeast/Candida Control Formula. It has six specific probiotic strains that are known to fight off yeast. Each capsule is guaranteed to have 20 billion living, healthy cells.We are very impressed with these products. I know how my immune system has been protected from the time I discovered probiotics. Iâ€™ve used probiotics when antibiotics were called for during a kidney infection once. Worked perfectly. To purchase iFlora, iFlora Candida/Yeast, and iFlora for kids, go visit Simply the Best. They are giving huge discounts to our readers.


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## 15670

Hey TALISSA - no need to respond to my earlier question. I found everything I needed to know, thanks: http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/p...agenouscolitis/


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## Talissa

Hi catsdeadnow,I also posted some info on LC on the main bb under IBS, intestinal inflammatin & Microscopic Colitis...That's so weird you bring up iflora. Thx for the info from consumer labs...When I first came to this bb, I was taking it & was sort of talked out of iFlora...by a great/interesting person, who btw sort of went psycho & got kicked off...hmmm.Thanks for the reminder about it. Will soon delve into others personal experiences w/ it. I was doing fine w/ it. Funny.Hey, re: Giardia. I recently read that giardia takes up residence in the small intestine. It clings onto the sides, killing probiotic bacteria and injuring the mucosal lining. The longer you have it the worse it is. Mine was abt 2 months. Hopefully you got your treated sooner than I did....Gotta ask, how the heck did you come up w/ that name???T-


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## 15670

Hey Talissa,(name signifies curiosity ...)I imagine the guy who went psycho had the same initial symptoms I'm now developing from virus Information-Excessio-But-Uncertainto. re my giardia: I very likely picked it up at the cottage ... was essentially symptom-free ... but probably had it for years (3 or more). I have no idea what that implies re severity or recommended treatment. Now that I'm finished with the FLAGYL, I'll probably have stool re-tested, just out of curiosity ... re iFlora, I'm reconsidering based on being able to get some substantiating indep research that science can now support claims for "room stable" probiotics. I've been corresponding with a very credible authority here in Canada (see below) - we'll see what his take is on 'room stable'r. Gregor Reid Director, Canadian R&D Centre for ProbioticsProgram Leader, Advanced Surgical TechnologiesLawson Health Research Institute, Professor, Microbiology & Immunology, and Surgery, University of Western OntarioThanks for the note.


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## 15221

CDN and Taliisa, nice work on the research, I like the sedona labs stuff thought about it too....Looking forward to taking the align...went to the health food store and noticed they had the Natren probiotics, both dairy and non-dairy versions. I wish I could have a chart or some sort of diagram as to where the different Micro Organisms are supposed to be and where mine are in relation to the twenty some odd feet of intestine were have....now that would be a nice diagostic test....any geniuses out there want to invent one....that and a giant CO2 vacuum to stop global warming.....its getting warm in here...still tweaking not yet ready for the antibiotic sledge hammer....I might be the first person to overdose on Probiotics though....


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## Talissa

> quote:I wish I could have a chart or some sort of diagram as to where the different Micro Organisms are supposed to be and where mine are in relation to the twenty some odd feet of intestine were have....now that would be a nice diagostic test....


Sign me up...Curiousity/CDN...Information-Excessio-But-Uncertainto. LOL. I've got that too! Too much information, data overload, just gotta hope the system doesn't crash... That's pretty cool you've written Dr Reid. They're doing alot of great microbial research up the Canadian way. It'll be interesting to hear his response.Although they're finding now that some of these probiotics work even if "dead" when hitting the sm intestine/colon. Their DNA alone invokes cytokine response."DNA from inactivated â€œprobioticâ€ bacteria triggers a specific anti-inflammation immune response in mice with experimental colitis, researchers supported by the NIHâ€™s National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) have discovered. Led by Eyal Raz, M.D., of the University of California, San Diego (UCSD), the investigators provide a possible explanation for the observed benefits of consuming probiotics, supplements from bacteria and other microbes, regarded by some as helpful in maintaining or restoring intestinal health. Knowing how probiotics work could give scientists a way to identify and select which probiotic bacteria might be effective against such human ailments as inflammatory bowel disease (IBD)."http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/feb2004/niaid-03.htmAnd something else to burn some brain cells on, here's an indepth look at Giardia (which btw, is very commonly asymptomatic)~http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_..._103194437/pg_2Have to point this out though~~"Giardiasis is potentially successfully managed using a combination of nutritional interventions and phytotherapy. These interventions should be considered the first-line approach.* Because of the increased risk of side effects (31,31) and the possible emergence of antibiotic-resistant organisms, * metronidazole, tinidazole, or benzimidazole antibiotics may best be reserved for cases in which the primary non-antibiotic treatment program is ineffective. In particular, metronidazole has been associated with recurrence rates as high as 90 percent, and the prevalence of clinical metronidazole-resistance may be as high as 20 percent. (3)"....this is probably why I now have c freundii & klebsiella messing up my gut in place of giardia...damn drugs...


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## Talissa

One more thing CDN, there's a guy on the B infantis thread in the OTC section named Mark. He's also had IBS since a giardia infection 15 yrs ago. The B Infantis seems to be helping him alot. But its taken time & a few setbacks to get there...Can't wait for them to ship int'l...T-


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## Arnie W

Talissa, an observation about GSE for you. I said earlier that my results have not been good so far, and now I think that progress might have been impeded by taking glucosamine sulfate with msm, and ultrafiltered whey protein powder.I am sure I'm very sensitive to sulfates in any form and I think the whey powder has been messing with my digestion. My GI had me do a lactose breath test a few months ago which was negative, so he told me to eat dairy, which I had not had for years. I think Mercola said that whey is a good antifungal, but I don't think it's helping me at all. I have been feeling very bloated later in the day and my lowstarch diet normally cuts my bms dramatically, but this has not happened this time. Whey powder might be the culprit. So back to the drawing board.My Nutribiotic 125mg GSE with echinacea and artemisia arrived today. My other one is 250mg, which I have been taking x4 daily. I also ordered Origanox, so hope it won't be too potent to use them together. Nature's Way Reuteri is on order. I have spent hundreds of dollars this month on bodybuilding and digestive supplements. My bedroom looks like a dispensary. Please that I be positive and hope that I get some results out of all this.


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## Talissa

> quote:My bedroom looks like a dispensary.


That's my kitchen & refrigerator!Arnie, thx for bringing this up. I rely on protein drinks for my breakfast...when I was first IBS sick & couldn't eat I was buying the junk protein drinks at the store, but stopped because of the HFCS and carageegan(sp?). Then I went to a pure soy mix. But stopped when I found out soy was inflammatory. THEN I switched to egg protein powder, but had an immediate reaction to that...so while I don't drink milk, I went to whey & have been for abt the past 2 years...I'll also try going off the whey for 2 weeks. See what happens. Maybe that contributed to my poor experience w/o the fiber.The problem is that I don't like to eat solid first thing before exercising. And if I go w/o eating I get hypoglycemic/lightheaded...####. Maybe I'll try carrot juice







I'm doing good though right now w/ the GSE & P. reuteri. I'm like ng though, overdosing on probiotics--I'm taking 6 caps before bed...I don't know if you've ever high dosed fiber, but the bms are all swollen and float...like jellyfish, or cow pies, or something...







But I have to say w/ the P. Reuteri, & lots of it, they're looking pretty normal. If I remember what that looks like! They aren't all swollen anymore, I'll put it that way. I have to strain a bit more. G*d, the things we talk about...Good, good luck w/ your new regimen. Let me know what you do in lieu of your protein drink, T-


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## 15670

Arnold - I learned whey more 'bout this than I wanted to. Think you'll find whey prt pwdr is not, collectively of itself, anti-fungal. Inevitable inclusion of lactoferrin (a "protein fraction", also prominent in Mom's milk) is considered to act on/w bacteria. Lots of usual info avail: Lactoferrin is present in the milk of most mammals and its chief role is providing protection in the colon by suppressing the overgrowth of harmful micro-organisms, inhibiting infection and tumour formation. Studies examining the benefits of lactoferrin found that those with skin fungal infections and Hepatitis C improved. A possibility for treating a yeast infection is a subfraction of whey protein called lactoferrin. Several studies have found lactoferrin to inhibit a wide range of gram positive and gram negative bacteria, yeasts, and even certain intestinal parasites. C albicans, in particular, has been proven to be inhibited by lactoferrin (Percival, 1997; Kuwata et al., 1998). One to two capsules of lactoferrin should be taken daily, with or without meals.http://www.naturodoc.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?...egory_Code=Mealhttp://www.kurtgreenberg.com/Secure/Content/cb.asp?cbid=28


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## 15670

Talissa - re Gregor Reid:We've been e-mailing ovr past several wks - turns out he's probably published dozens, maybe 000s, of articles on Probiotics. I think he considers our most recent corres his last: I'd asked if the science/technology of "room temperature stabilisation" (ie iFlora) was credible. He sent the following (his most recent) article:http://www.bentham.or g/cpd/sample/cpd11-1.htm- see: The Importance of Guidelines in the Development and Application of Probiotics Pp.11-16Gregor ReidBottom Line: For someone with his perspective, iFlora and everything else can't and shouldn't be represented as "probiotics" ... the products are nothing more than "containers of bacteria", if that.The article is probably important scientific discussion, but of only marginal value for those of us seeking reason to believe we're getting mucho good bugs for our money.Dr. Reid concurs that buying "probiotics", esp in N. America, is nothing more than a #### shoot (pardon the pun ...). Buying with confidence is more about hope than reason.


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## 15221

CDN, I tried to open the article but it does not open for me, could you paste it to this thread...? I am very interested in this man's observations....It is true we are just ingesting bacteria, dead, or live, whatever it is it has a positive effect. That is the bottom line as far as I am concerned. However, as faras what I have experienced, findinf something that can re-distribute or start as close to new as possible by eliminating pathogenic bacteria, or just low level out of place bacteria could be very difficult to be re-arranged after the intial or continual displacement. I look at it like this for some of us.... once the Genie is out of the bottle its tough to get back in, we just have to hope the bottle is not broken....that is why I think that the right mix of anti-biotics and natural microbials is needed to dislodge some of these things.....I'm still hanging on don't want to use the Bactrim, but something is causing inflammation, and its not stopping too quickly...the epithelium heals quickly but not if the toxins are killing them.....Talissa, when I got my Klebs report I was told that Caprylic acid worked against it....so I used the bactrim and it at the same time....also Arnie, the whey was tough on me too, and I was using the most pure lactose free version available....the protein of the original dairy product still caused symptoms, I would love to be able to take it again some day, worked great for my hard workouts, but for some reason dairy is not as well tolerated as other meat proteins......2 cents please......


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## Arnie W

Right, today there will be no whey powder (pure, unadulterated ultra-filtered, unsweetened and unflavored though it may be).Thankyou, NG, CDN and T for your comments. You know, I'm feeling more positive already. And thanks for the info on iflora. I had wondered whether I should use it, so it's something else I can add to the arsenal later on, if need be.


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## Talissa

> quote:"buying "probiotics", esp in N. America, is nothing more than a #### shoot"


This is exactly why I've been combing the internet for personal exp's w/ probiotics, from sites not selling them.Another crapshoot is deciding how much to take to help with your part GI problem.Found this more complete exerpt from Galland's "Power Healing"http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:6L5Ik...us&ct=clnk&cd=4Definitely makes me want to try to stop the commercially prepared fiber again soon...Wish the oat bran sold down here didn't come w/ flour bugs. They seem to sell the expired stuff to the countires in the caribbean, so by the time it gets here, there they are, little maggots-to-be. Ugh. I had to stop buying brown rice because of it...I hope posting the above link doesn't mean I have a huge ego...I love how "they" can put down people, when the rest of us are highly discouraged from doing likewise...And it was in regards to a post that was merely a debate, there was zero "fighting" or animosity...nor did it repeat the same things over & over...ng, I think I'll just stick w/ you back here in the dredges...If I don't end up getting booted...Bye guys, T-


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## overitnow

A couple of notes for Arnie and Talissa:I use a Glucosamine HCL which has been very effective and eliminates the sulphate. This was the type that was used in the original U Toronto studies some years ago. Apparantly it is also the base for what gets turned into the sulphate model. Since a molucule weighs less than one of the sulphates, you will actually get a little more of the glucosamine into your system. Also, the one I take combines it with Bromelain, Green Tea, and Ginger extracts which are included to enhance absorption. If you are taking anti-oxidents with your anti-inflammatories, you might want to make sure they are all going down at once to mimic that effect.As far as brekkie is concerned, my weight control and digestion are both aided by banana/fruit/yogurt/fibrepowder smoothies. They give me a full feeling without weighing me down. Given all of the fruit I assume you have down there, along with your own fibre and probiotic needs, it can't--well shouldn't--hurt. If you have mangoes in it, you can pretty well go directly to heaven without leaving the kitchen. So sorry about your "friend," the m********n salesman. (LOL)3 hour bike loop today. See you.Mark


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## Arnie W

Noguts, I can identify with you completely. I'm a bit of a gym junkie myself and want protein drinks to supplement my diet, as it's not always easy to fit in several protein meals a day, and chicken and tuna can get nauseous at the best of times.I wonder if we have the lactase deficiency, making us lactose intolerant.So we have a choice of just avoiding dairy altogether or supplementing with lactase enzyme tablets.I mentioned in another post that I thought my diet was slipping as I was feeling very tight around the pants. Now I realise that it was probably the whey, as the bloating didn't happen until after I had taken the whey and had subsided by the next day.Possibly we could manage to get away with having just one glass a day but, in the meantime, I'll try to get a more regular digestive routine by sticking to tuna, salmon, chicken and salads, add rice when I decide to go off the no-starch and then I can experiment later. BTW, how do you all tolerate egg whites? I only have them when I'm going to be staying at home. Wonder why?


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## Talissa

> quote:Talissa, when I got my Klebs report I was told that Caprylic acid worked against it....so I used the bactrim and it at the same time.


Real quick, what do you think ng...I've got a 5 day supply of Rifaximin, if I take 600 mg p/day. I've got a study showing at 7 days, this amt is fairly effective but does best at 1200 mg/day...Its eff ag klebsiella, and poss c freundii & even Giardia(it got them in vitro at least). People who take a natural anti w/ synthetic anti usually do better. Plus, people w/ recurrent C Diff at least do better when taking the antibiotic w/ the probiotic s. boulardii.Do you think I should try doing the same but w/ GSE, Rifaximin & the probiotic Florastor(w/ others)? Even though the studies are all from 7-30 days, and I've only got a 5 day supply?Btw, ""The data suggest that Xifaxan (rifaximin), a non-absorbed, gut-selective, antibiotic with few side effects and low potential for resistance..." http://www.docguide.com/news/content.nsf/n...ctions&count=10I just can't help myself...What do you think??I'll start tomorrow w/o my whey.







It'll be missed.T-


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## Talissa

> quote:how do you all tolerate egg whites


I couldn't eat them until taking the GSE...Peeps with Microscopic Colitis can't eat them either. Only egg yolks...have no idea why...


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## Talissa

We're all here at the same time! It's cool but its getting confusing









> quote:Given all of the fruit I assume you have down there, along with your own fibre and probiotic needs, it can't--well shouldn't--hurt. If you have mangoes in it, you can pretty well go directly to heaven without leaving the kitchen.


You would assume we'd have plenty of fruit. Ah the reality of paradise...the stuff sold in stores is for the most part all shipped in(its a small island of volcano rock). Bananas. The only fruit I can get with any consistency, except maybe apples if you can believe that. And they're only good apples abt 4 months out ot the year. Mangoes are so delicious, but they are banned from importation because they grow here, and they're only in season twice a year...Living on an island is really not all its cracked up to be...Be diff if we could live at the four seasons all year(they bring in their produce seperately & privately & its only available if you eat there & spend $200 a meal)...ps..hope you had a great bike ride--sounds amazing...


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## 15221

I say go for it and what the heck I may do the same, the only thing I would say that you keep the psyilum to a minimum let the antibiotic be free to kill and make as much surface contact as possible, so it will not be pushed so rapidly out by large quantities of fiber...5 days should be enough, I remember being a kid and the damn stuff killing off strepto after two days....I was only on my bactrim for 7 days, thats all my Doc would give me, it did the job....and then some ...If you can't get Caprylic Acid eat lots of unsweetened coconuts... after the supply go back as needed to the corn fiber insoulible critter chow but of course keeping the other natural GSE Antimicrobials going strong for as long as the body seems to be needing it....then the probiotics should come on strong ...like a freakin symphony of bacteria playing to all those little epithelium cells, and since your ok with yogurt go with that...unfortunately its not the always the lack of lactsae Arnie, it could be the protein too that the immune system is reacting to, and like Talissa said these proteins can get out in the blood stream causing the little flare ups of chronic fatigue and arthritis....the bottom line is time, time to heal for the b-cells and mast cells to forget what used to insult us...and that can only occur once we are doing more healing then damage.....heck I know even normal people non IBSers who experience gas from whey so its simply just more than our GI tracts can handle even with the supplements and the bacteria that shouldn't get it also thrive on it and cause our wonderful symptoms.....Good Luck My Fellow Proactive Bowel Challenged Brethren


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## Arnie W

Bowel challenged isn't wrong.Good to see the lurkers coming out to play. This thread is very interesting, even though we have strayed from the original topic. But there is a lot of good info being offered.Talissa, I think that it is the sulfur in the egg whites which is the problem for me.Overitnow, I took glucosamine hydrochloride for a month and ran out and haven't got round to getting some more. I wanted to use the g sulfate, because I have had it for a while and it is near the expiry date. I think I have a combo of osteoarthritis and carpal tunnel, which does't bother me for activities of daily living, but frustrates me for my weightlifting.The lactase deficiency is quite prevalent in the general population, and especially in the Latino and black communities, but I can certainly accept that protein in excess can also be a problem. I think I digest chicken and fish ok, apart from the gas, but I get that from everything, anyway. I do worry about the effects of the excessive protein I eat, esp with regard to arthritis, bone density (mine's not too good), kidneys, etc.


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## Talissa

Thx ng, my brethren brother, for the fine advice. I will take the antibiotic plunge, not w/o some trepidation, antibiotic-phobe that I am...also good idea to stay away from the husks...ought to be a fun time...Arnie, wow. Everyday I learn something. This sulfur thing is amazing. And the biggest sulfur causing problem as it relates to bacteria in the colon, and bad odors, is meat.This summarizes much of what I've read for the last hour~"These sulfur compounds are major members of a family of gases known to be offensive in very low concentrations.1 Although most patients perceive (bad breath odor)as primarily a cosmetic problem, an increasing amount of evidence shows that extremely low concentrations of many of these compounds are highly toxic to tissues. These sulfur gases, especially methyl mercaptan, play a role in causing inflammatory conditions such as periodontitis (inflammation of the tissues surrounding and supporting the teeth).2 Periodontal disease has been associated with other serious illness, including heart disease.3 These sulfur gases are also involved in inflammation of other cells lining the intestional tract causing colitis, and occasionally, a life-threatening condition, known as ulcerative colitis. 4"http://www.nealhendrickson.com/mcdougall0201P2.htmI've struggled w/ gum problems since taking tetracycline for a year...And on WHEY, and suflur foods~"In patients with ulcerative colitis (UC), whey protein or other foods high in SAA should be used with caution. There is evidence linking protein fermentation and subsequent formation of sulfide in the pathogenicity of this disease. Hydrogen sulfide, sulfide, and thioacetic acid are produced and cause irritation to the colonic mucosa, resulting in possible damage to colonic epithelial cells, and leading to inflammation. (202-204) One study found 96 percent of patients with UC carry sulfate-reducing bacteria in the colon compared with only 50 percent of healthy individuals. (205) In another study, a diet low in SAAs produced an improvement in UC patients. (204"http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_...i_83582816/pg_5(SAA--sulfur amino acids)And the bad breath odor from the colon isn't the only place smelly gas escapes from...have many sources for this if interested...I guess you already knew this abt whey Arnie...am wondering why you still eat such a high amt of meat, if you know abt the sulfur problem...I really wish I didn't love onions so much right now...Thx for the additional education, T-


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## Arnie W

Good questions, Talissa, and that is one of the reasons why I was experimenting with whey.However, I have extra meat protein because it is pushed down your throat in weightlifting circles to have high protein and also because there is not much else I can stomach and I would otherwise just fade away. Avoiding gluten, dairy, allicins and crucifers doesn't leave too much else to subsist on. There is no way I can get away with eating dried apricots (sulfur preservative) and most of the spices either.I avoid red meat and believe that it is safer to take fish and white meat as far as sulfur goes, but maybe I'm wrong. You've got me thinking. I'll have to do a search later. I know I had to cut back on tuna, because the smell was beginning to seep through my pores, but it hasn't been a problem for my digestion.


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## overitnow

Arnie,I have always had the same reaction to protien, whether it's meat, dairy, or nuts, even before this got bad. At least this helps keep me aware. When I first started to try to get back into shape--before coming to terms with the age thing and giving myself a hernia to prove just how stupid/competitive I could be--I, too, was drinking whey shakes 2-3 times a week. Funny thing, between those and the rest of my diet routine (smoothies, etc) I managed to move my cholesterol from low back to elevated. Doc gave me two months to cut down on all the dairy and religiously back on the supplements or I was going to be dancing with Pfizer. So now I am back on soy milk, which will probably develop into some other problem, but the cholesterol dropped. I suppose this is a bit of a warning.You mentioned bone density. You are taking sufficient Cal-Mag, are you not?Mark


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## 23677

I cannot help but admire the people on this thread. Instead of whinging about everything to do with their condition, we have at last a group of people doing their own research, experimenting with foods & offering informative data which will certainly be useful to others. Bravo to you all! You certainly deserve relief from your IBS symptoms.


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## Talissa

Aw, thx Dave. Very cool of you to chime in and say that!







A, It looks like there might be sometimes be undeclared sulfites in canned tuna~"Government regulations allow canned tuna to contain up to eighteen percent other stuff, such as casein and soy proteins, and sometimes sulfites."http://www.askdrsears.com/html/4/T041600.asp"FDA Warns of Sulfites in Tuna"http://www.colostate.edu/orgs/safefood/NEWSLTR/v1n3s01.htmlhttp://www.oznet.ksu.edu/Dp_fnut/_timely/tuna.htmOy vay...


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## 15670

NoGuts,Sorry about the URL in my most recent post - my cut 'n paste was sloppy (there should notta been a space in suffix ORG):Now Corrected As:http://www.bentham.org/cpd/sample/cpd11-1.htm


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## Talissa

ng, I got the florastor & will begin taking it with the antibiotic tonight (it's yeast, so the antibiotics won't effect it)Hey, if you decide to try the bactrim again, pls read this first:http://www.cdiffsupport.com/phpBB/viewtopi...b657134fd8e6085And then hopefully, you'll decide to take the florastor along with the antibiotic...Here's Dr Galland's advice in "Power Healing" for taking antibiotics & lessening the chance of suffering for it later:"Dr. Galland's regimen to avoid getting either a yeast infection or *the more common bacterial infection*: Take 250 mg of Florastor twice a day with food and at the same time you take your antibiotic. After you complete the antibiotics, switch to Culturelle (the probiotic), and take 100 mg a day for 30 days. If you are allergic to Saccharomyces boulardi, take Culturelle twice a day while on the antibiotic and once a day for a month afterward. Remember, follow this advice only after checking with your physician to be sure that it is safe for you."You know how those out of control antibiotic-resistant bacteria give me the heebie-jeebies, don't want you to be a victim like I was...T-


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## 15221

Thanks CDN, also would like to comment on the protein concerns...I also eat to much protein, my tests showed incomplete mastication, plainly I was compensating for my lack of nurishment by over compensating with protein....Well it took a while to figure it out....Arnie I don't have the sulfur problems with it, thanks for small givings, and if I were you I might consider doing two things. Continue with the protein but in smaller doses, spaced out because even healthy GI tracts can only process so much protein, the rest becomes waste and can become putrification matter etc...also if you look up a guy named Wolfgang Lutz, a SCD pioneer who with Elaine Gotschall save alot of butts with Crohns and UC....you would see that proteinis not alone, you need a almost a 60 40 split with fat and protein together.....just the way our bodies metabolize things better, so the fatty fish, the fatty meats are better for us and contain more energy than the super lean meats...check this out I went from a 180 total cholesterol to a 124 cholesterol eating fattier meats, but minus the sugar triglicerides, etc....so the body can adapt to this level, heck the Eskimoes and other northern tribes lived this way for 6 to 9 months every year for the last several thousand years so I would not say it is the meat alone, it is the way our individual bodies are metabolizing it....just like anything else we ingest we either can break it down or it will injure our bodies.....so I would try and just modify your diet before going way off it, also I had consumed so many eggs for years, usually 6 every morning, never any problems, but when I got my allergy test done I showed antibodies elevated for egg protein so I stopped for a while, when I first went back to eating them again I would get a reaction, heart burn burping like stuff, but now if I eat one or two a couple times a week no problem.....The best advice my pseudo cyber allergist Dr. Dantini gave me is that I needed to try and rotate food, never eat the same meal three times, meaning no corn three meals or rice etc...unfortunately my diet is so restricted I have to consume either chicken, pork, fish, or red meat atleast once a day, or I too would not be able to live.....also when I first started eating nuts my body would not even break them down, not enough HCL and enzymes, now the nuts are being broken down as well so baby steps forward for the toddling GI tract......later


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## 15221

You know Talissa, I was never allergic to Antibiotics but I was given one many years ago and some strange stuff happened....not saying it was a reaction to the drug, what I had was the flu, and it is usless to be given the drugs when you have the typical stomach flu, well who knows I had a rash, thrush, and just weird ####, but the end result was your typical flu and once I stopped the antibiotics I was fine...when I took the bactrim last time I felt hardly any symptoms at all, it is mainly used for GI tract infections so hey it worked well, I am still holding off, time will tell....


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## 15221

Cats Dead Now, Thanks for that link...In twenty minutes I have confirmed and re-confirmed so much info... the 200 watt light bulb was going on in my head...nobody on this web site can afford not to check that link out...I don't have the time to finish that first article, but will later today, look forward to reading the rest as well...thanks again.....


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## 15670

You're welcome, Gutless. At the end of the day, the purchase decisions we all make re particular Probiotics are much more intuitive than they are logical:- when "clinical evidence" is provided to substantiate contents, it's hardly rigorous or meaty science - we place more reliance than we should have to on a manufacturer's reputation (wouldn't you have to be the naturopathic equivalent of the Keystone Kops to have a lousy reputation in an industry that's essentially unregulated?) - likewise, we consider the experiences and opinions of fellow drifters on the internet, folks we don't know and will never meet - if you're like me, you ultimately end up choosing between "contender brands" partly based on how much mischief's in the voice of the order-desk rep (ALWAYS a Debbie or a Cathy) and partly based on the colours and fonts that feature prominently on the web site and in the packaging I had been leaning towards iFlora (their rep spells it Debi - how's that for product differentiation?). I'm now going to re-evaluate Genestra's HMF Powder.In either case, I'm quite unsure about "room stabilisation" for all probiotics - again, based mostly on instinct, rumour and happy-faced e-mails ... http://www.innovativemedicine.com/products...x.php?id=gen014


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## 15670

http://www.rockwellnutrition.net/product.asp?itemid=239Not only is this packaging even more impressive, but there's this to feel good about as well: _"Genestra has added in 50% more probiotic than what the label guarantees per bottle. For example, HMF Forte is *guaranteed* to have 6 billion L. acidophilus per serving, but there are 12 billion present at time of manufacturing"._I suppose one shouldn't quibble about a measly 3 billion bacteria, but Genestra's marketing people would do well to spend more time hanging with their accountants: Here in Canada, 6 increased by 50% = 9.And I wonder how many times a purchase has been refunded because a buyer proved the bacteria count was actually off by a few billion?


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## Talissa

Hi guys, Interesting(depressing) talk on the probiotics...CDN, have you looked into Florastor? It was sold first in Europe--it's called "Ultraleveure" in France...they can even make a probiotic sound romantic...I may chicken out on the rifaximin. Seems to help people at 1st, then it comes back a few months later, but at least better than it was to begin with. I'm already at better than it was. Alot better... Could this mess it up? Btw, remember grapefruit seed extract?







It made the "World Journal of Gastroenterology" last Nov. Pretty impressive~Grapefruit-seed extract attenuates ethanol-and stress-induced gastric lesions via activation of prostaglandin, nitric oxide and sensory nerve pathways.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum


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## Talissa

This is interesting, a discussion on the C Diff bb~Probiotics Poll -- What Do You Think Helped You?


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## 15221

Talissa, I would like to go out on limb here and say yes the symptoms would come back after a month, if they acted like myself and started eating offensive foods like I did, maybe they didn't, maybe they stayed on the diet and probiotics and enzymes, but if they were like me and started feeling better than they did for years then they might be tempted to drink or consume things that are not easily forgotten by the body, and gradually the foods that caused the problems allow bad microbes to be feed further down the line reinfecting the gut, maybe not as bad, but still not right....think about it, I guess I should test my own hypothesis or shut up...







Later


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## 15670

Tallisa,Short Answer: Yes.More Entertaining Answer: It's certain I had (have?) giardia ... it's certain I had (have?) dysbiosis .. and presumed I still have, three years after organic-acid testing, Candida overgrowth in the GI. Bacterial overgrowth is a unknown further possibility. I just finished up with a week-long FLAGYL treatment to kill the cottage-water bugs (Giarida) - and, as advised, refrained from taking anti-fungals during the FLAGYL week, though I was gobbling probiotics and digestives. I've continued with the probiotics as I've just started anti-fungals: GSE ... and/or Nystatin ... and or caprylic ... etc. - Last I looked, Dr. Leo Galland appears to be an advocate of Florastor for Candida protocols. - His Eminence Dr. William Shaw personally advised against ingesting any and all yeast-based or yeast-containing products -- dead or alive, including _Red Star's _ Nutritional Yeast. - The manufacturer of Red Star carefully advised me that any and all de-activated nutritional yeast ought to be beneficial in treating Candida - and pointed out that there is no research of any kind that concluding a detrimental association.- Dr. Elmer Cranston says the prob ain't yeast, it's the proteins related to and produced by all yeasts. He strongly advises against ingesting all yeasts if/while treating Candida.- Dr. Bruce Blinzler says what Dr. Cranston is referring to are more properly called lectins - and that they are and would be detrimental only if one was allergic to them - meaning, one had an allergy basically to yeast.- My friendly car mechanic feels that what I really need is the yeast you get from a few cold ones. For moi, Florastor is a damn good example of that overriding condition I suffer from most: _Information-Excessio-But-Uncertainto_.


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## Talissa

"My friendly car mechanic feels that what I really need is the yeast you get from a few cold ones"







You are too funny...glad you're around...Yep, that came up in my research as well. This is how I see it, first, s boulardii is not the same as bakers yeast, altho its in the same family. (this is why peeps who are allergic to bakers yeast should avoid it) S. Boulardii is a non-pathenogenic strain of yeast that fights the bad yeast(yeh, you know this already...)but the cases where Saccharomyces Cerevisiae(bad yeast) infection from taking s boulardii are pretty rare and then only in immunocompromised hospital patients using intravenous catheters, or AIDS patients.(from what I've read)If it were true that general peeps got S Cerevisiae infections from s boulardii,it would be somewhere on the internet. With all the peeps using it on the diff forums(there are many), surely that would've come up....its the complaints you hear more than the good news. And that would be a heck of a complaint! But definitely can understand your uncertainto! Don't blame you for holding off..conflicting messages abound...


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## Arnie W

I wanted to chime in here to thank you all for the responses to my comments on sulfites and protein. I have had this high protein diet for several years. My cholesterol readings are acceptable and I believe that a high consumption of flaxseed oil keeps the levels lower. Interesting comment about the Eskimoes as I have read research too about the benefits of their traditional diet (high fat and protein). I generally mix a good-quality oil with my meat dishes.I do take calcium carbonate, but I think that the rot has already set in and that the calcium will only stabilise the deterioration. Anyway I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the gse.


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## Talissa

A, I really hope the GSE helps you out too. Give it at least a month.ng, I missed your last post. You have a good point. I'm on the fence for now. The quercetin I ordered is from a diff co. & it should get here next week. I'd think that would help. Maybe I'll take it then, maybe not...I did start the florastor last night. Along w/ the mouthful of P Reuteri...Feel like my own lab rat.


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## cat crazy

Talissa.Re Florastor I have tried it alone without combining it with any other probiotics and found it useless. But just as of 3 days ago I combined it with Vsl#3 (am in a trail study just under a month) and find the 2 together work better than any ONE probiotic on it's own. I took this advise from one of your posts about mixing Florastor with VSL#3. I also started taking GSE as of 2 days now but only 1 tab with breakfast and not sure what is making the difference in improvement of symptoms but will say its' the Florastor/VSL#3 combination more than anything else.


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## overitnow

This will be longish and not IBS related; but when I read it last night I thought immediately of all of you.From Fooled By Randomness--The Hidden Role of Chance in Life and in the Markets by Nassim Taleb, Random House _Examples of Biases in Understanding Probability_Below is the account of a well-known test, and an embarrassing one for the medical profession. The following famous quiz was given to medical doctors which I borrowed from the excellent Deborah Bennett's _Randomness_)."A test of a disease presents a rate of 5% false positives. The disease strikes 1/1000 of the population. People are tested at random, regardless of whether they are suspected of having the disease. A patient's test is positive. What is the probability of the patient being struck with the disease?"Most doctors answered 95%, simply taking into account the fact that the test has a 95% accuracy rate. The answer is the conditional probability that the patient is sick and the test shows it--close to 2%. Less than one in five professionals got it right.I will simplify the answer (using the frequency approach). Assume no false negatives. Consider that out of 1000 patients who are administered the test, one will be expected to be afflicted with the disease. Out of a population of the remaining 999 healthy patients, the test will identify about 50 with the disease (it is 95% accurate). The correct answer should be that the probability of being afflicted with the disease for someone selected at random who presented a positive test is the following ratio: Number of afflicted persons/Number of true and false positives here 1 in 51.Think of the number of times you will be given a medication that carries damaging side effects for a given disease you were told you had, when you may only have a 2% probability of being afflicted with it.Now, back to your microbes.Mark


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## Talissa

Mark, I LOVE that. Thx. I'm just kind of wondering why it made you think of us alt medr's? It makes me think of all those poor souls on antidepressants...It must be the antibiotics eh? It does sort of reinforce my extreme reluctance to try an Rx antibiotic again...Hanna, That's great news, really appreciate the feed back. I know you're pretty busy, so I hope you'll keep us updated as you go? How long does the trial for the vsl3 last?One question, when you tried Florastor the first time, did you become really light-headed, a bit fatigued? I've never had this part. die-off reaction before & its very strange. I've read of the same thing happening w/ Rx antifungals, but not really w/ regards to florastor...it's a bit freaky. I'm sure it'll pass in a day or so.But at least you're doing good. I should've taken my own advice & comb'd florastor w/ vsl3! Ironic.Thx again, T-


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## overitnow

The folks on meds will not appreciate this irony.


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## 15670

ALL/ANY: Back to GSE again:Can any of you identify any information on unfavourable reaction, sensitivity or allergy to GSE? Thanks. I have no reason to believe I have a (previous) allergy to citrus fruits - but have no basis on which to claim I don't either. I have recently developed a minor, localised, non-painful skin disorder that pretty much coincides with when I began taking GSE (~600 mg, total/day). It's also now been identified as a potentially (pre-)cancerous lesion - determination by dermatologist is months away. Those taking GSE for GI Candida are strongly advised against disrupting treatment, in the belief that surviving Candida strains can emerge treatment-resistant in the process. The text below is the only kind of reference I've been able to find. I've e-mailed Nutroibiotic for more/better info. _People using GSE should be aware that they may have, or may develop an allergy to this preparation. Persons with a known citrus allergy are at higher risk. Should you develop a rash or experience any other symptoms while using it, discontinue use immediately. _


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## Arnie W

When I first started researching gse last year, the general impresssion I gained was that there were minimal side effects, unless you had a citrus allergy or were taking certain meds on which you should avoid grapefruit, eg, lipitor.The following link, though relating specifically to grapefruit juice, supports what you wrote, however. http://www.healthtouch.com/bin/EContent_HT...UICE+&cid=HTALT


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## Arnie W

BTW, I go to a candida site, where several people tolerate only minimal doses of gse because of the die-off they get, but I have not heard of any of them getting rashes. I'll have to post a thread there. Many of these people are not just sensitive to gse, but to many other preparations which are used for candida albicans.


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## Talissa

Curiosity, This is a bummer. Talk abt freaky(you win)...I've never heard of a rash from an allergic reaction being pre-cancerous. It's us. just a rash that will most often resolve once the offending histamine-jump-starter(allergen) is discontinued....You said~


> quote: It's also now been identified as a potentially (pre-)cancerous lesion - determination by dermatologist is months away.


Who ID'd this as potentially pre-cancerous?You're of course going to have to follow your intuition on whether to stop taking the GSE or not, like on choosing probiotics. It'd be ideal if you had a well-known/qualified naturopath to consult with on it...Did you take a stool test to determine an intestinal yeast overgrowth? I ask because I assumed after I took the flagyl that I had a yeast problem, many of my symptoms jelled w/ it. But when I took the test, it was all bacterial overgrowth, bacteria that also happens to be resistant to flagyl...Anyways, I hope you can get in to see a dermatologist sooner!Hang in there, T-


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## 15670

Tal - quite right: I didn't mean to indicate or even suggest that GSE can and, in my case, has created a skin condition identified as pre-cancerous.That is not the situation at all - my carelessness.The skin condition I have MAY have been created by GSE ... or not. Whatever its origins, my GP considers it MAY be pre-cancerous, only insofar as any number of similarly looking skin conditions MAY be pre-cancerous - meaning: It's prudent to find out.A Derm. will determine the latter question. The former question -- where it came from -- MIGHT be resolved just by discontinuing GSE. Alternatively, that question may simply be unresolvable. There should be no other inference (ie that sensitivity to GSE can result in a skin condition that is cancerous). That's just not on - sorry 'bout that having been implied. Yeast overgrowth diganosis was based on standard organic-acid testing (tartaric; arabinole). Once the Derm's out of the way, I intend to stool test - possibly blood test as well.


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## Talissa

Well, I sure hope the skin condition is from the GSE--an allergy to GSE would be easy to fix. Have you considered going off the GSE and switching to another natural antifungal like oil of oregano or caprylic acid? That way you can still fight any yeast, and also see if the skin problem clears up??That's a good idea to get both the stool tested and the blood. Just fyi...I fixed the lightheadedness/dizzy problem by taking the florastor w/ food. The florastor site says you can take it w or w/o food..I guess I need the food...Big difference, thank goodness...I'm dizzy enough as it is, don't need any more help







Bye guys, T-


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## 15670

Tal,I'd been exploring cap acid, etc, - and one med-chain fatty some consider as/more effective: undecenoic acid (undecylenic): http://www.modernherbalist.com/products/sf-722.html


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## 15670

Interesting ... http://www.thewholewhey.com/contents/produ...fo/proflora.htmhttp://www.thewholewhey.com


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## 15670

Ditto,http://www.jimmunol.org/cgi/content/abstract/174/6/3237


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## 21506

I'm a newbie here, but have been following this thread for a week, since I'm also using GSE as part of an antimicrobial cocktail, along with probiotics, to go after my C. difficile, which was caused by Clindamycin. (Long, same ole story)Might be a good idea to mention that you should also not take GSE if you're taking Red Yeast Rice supplement. T'would make ya mighty sick.Sure hope I didn't get to this thread too late. So far, it's the only thing I've found helpful after nearly a month of surfing and supplementing.Gave up on allopathy awhile back.I'm not taking metronidazole again, bless my sweet family practitioner's heart. He took a good swing at it. I'm battin fer myself now, at least for awhile.- Carla


> quote:Originally posted by Arnie W:When I first started researching gse last year, the general impresssion I gained was that there were minimal side effects, unless you had a citrus allergy or were taking certain meds on which you should avoid grapefruit, eg, lipitor.


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## Talissa

Hey Carla, Welcome! I'm glad you joined us, fellow flagyl vic, and I'm really glad the GSE is helping you. What's getting better for you? Are you also taking probiotics? Interesting about the nutritional yeast while on GSE...S Boulardii isn't the same chemically as that, but it may explain why I need to take Florastor w/ food. Another explanation that I found is that its pretty good at killing candida, die-off can be severe. Everyone has candida, I had it acc to the stool test, just not enough to cause problems. So the lightheaded biz could've been the candida die-off, in a mild case like mine...Apparently Florastor is supposed to attach readily to the intestinal walls and protect it from pathogens, allowing other probiotic bacteria to proliferate. That's why it works so well taken with other probiotics.It's why vsl3 does better when taken with florastor, I think. That was another good study on vsl3 CDN, thx...It's just very few humans seem to get relief/change while on vsl3 and its incredibly $$$...I may try it, but only w/ Florastor...the other links were interesting too(I've never tried the sugar whey, only the protein, do you think you'll try it?)I'm currently eating w/e I want now, like a complete normal, going twice ev am solid, very pretty brown, non-puffed from fiber....& like ng said, I'd probably get back to completely normal(needing no supplements) if I followed a stricter diet...ah well...


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## 15221

Hey Harpy, well what antibiotics did they try to give you to kill off the C-difficile...? Curious if you tried it to stop the infectious-D....that is strange that for some people that bacteria goes ape and takes over, I guess were all suceptable to different bacterias and depending on the type of antibiotics were used....bad bacterias, My Father has been on more antibiotics than anybody I know, he was apart of that DR. knows best culture, so I have been helping him back, he has mild Colon problems with bouts of IBS, they would put him on more stuff like Flagyl to help his gut, his bacterial counts must be off as well but he never degressed like I did, the total downward spiral type situation, chronic fatigue, Fibromyalgea, totally bad state .. Unfortunately I think the pathogenic bugs harder to kill than we think, I am not advocating antibiotics but these suckers can learn to live in some pretty severe enviroments and I am not sure that Grapefruit is going to do the job....I took it for a long while before my first Stool test and the bloody Klebsbelia was probably laughing at it....maybe it works better on C-diff, I hope so ....God Bless.... it is a living hell this ####.....


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## 23392

Near as I can tell from reading, c-diff is very frequently not taken care of--or even resistant to--metronidazole/flagyl. However, vancomycin caused me NO problems [other than in the wallet!!! OW.] and got rid of the c-diff.And now the rant part:  That's how I ended up on this bboard. Went to the ER with chest thing--they gave me Zyrtec AND nexium together. Now of course a study has come out saying what I thought: you change the acid environment, you up the chances of some bacteria growing. So I got C-diff from their 'intervention.' [this could be the source of other bacterial imbalances, too.]My C-diff really wasn't too bad. Nothing like the symptoms I have now...comparing it to other cases, and what I have now, the only bothersome thing was the nightly low-grade fevers.It was after the flagyl--which I finally threw up, it felt like it was causing a gastritis, no matter how much food I took it with--and the dose of phenergan this idiot pcp gave me insisting that I finish the course [when, had I been reading, I'd have known flagyl rarely kills the stuff anyway, and NO you don't have to be inpatient in a hospital to get vanco!] that I suddenly, immediately, had bloating, dizziness, and multiple stools a day. As Talissa said: GRRR. I *will* say, however, that vancomycin is a nice drug for me. It did nothing bad to me; it even seemed to alleviate some symptoms. And it thoroughly killed the c-diff. People have been mentioning finding out what bacteria they had. What test is being done for this? I've had various cultures but haven't been given any results except 'normal flora.'And about that wish to know what was where in the intestine...and all the discussion of probiotics...here's my sci-fi prediction. Given that on the c-diff list people are talking about a fairly immediate cure of c-diff with no side effects and no recurrence, from human faecal stool transplants [because of the way c-diff works...you hit it with an antibiotic, it forms spores and dies; the spores 'hatch' later. But other bacteria, good bacteria, will get rid of it like walnut trees kill off some other growth...when only pulse dosing of antibiotics will work otherwise.].So here we go: I predict that in a few years, this 'smart pill' that you swallow, with cameras and computer, will be able to sample small intestinal bacteria and get a reading.I further predict that rich people will be able to start putting aside samples of their particular bacterial mixes from their intestines, the way people can put aside blood or stem cells now. In case they ever get ibs, they will have the right bacterial 'mix' to transplant.And I predict the bacterial balance is going to explain a LOT of things in some cases...hence a big future for probiotics.


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## Talissa

Grrr is right. What a sad tale AO...like alot of ours here though so its a familiar one. Interesting predictions too! I'm glad you're seeing peeps have success w/ the fecal infusions. On the C Diff bb I was surprised to see some not have success. Thx for letting us know!About vanco, just so peeps don't think it's w/o fault~"VRE stands for vancomycin resistant enterococci. These are bacteria that have developed a resistance to most antibiotics commonly used for enterococcal infections. The antibiotics include vancomycin, aminoglycosides, and ampicillin. ....What is especially troubling about VRE is that the genetic material that makes the enterococci resistant to vancomycin, the vanA gene, can be transferred between enterococci and other kinds of bacteria. If this gene is transferred to Staphylococcus aureus bacteria that are resistant to methicillin (MRSA), the result would be a S. aureus bacteria that is resistant to all currently available antibiotics."http://health.utah.gov/els/epidemiology/epifacts/vre.htmlThis is why I'd like to get in on Rifaximin now, before it too develops all sorts of resistant bacteria. It'll definitely happen too, esp w/ Pimental's book out. I just wish I had a full dose.A friend of mine told me yesterday that she had a bad sinus infection, didn't want to go to the doctor, & had 3 days worth of antibiotics. So even though she knew she shouldn't she did take them. And the infection got much worse. This is why I'm hesitant to take it w/o having enough for 600-1200 mg for 10 days...On the other hand, the GSE could help the Rif along. I think. And I also read in a study that taking the quercetin btn meals to clear proteins from the blood(thus lowering inflammation) increased the ability of antibiotics to get rid of staph infections of the lungs...(raised the success rate to 47%, at any rate)Who knows...damn bugs...








AO, what are you doing now for you current sit?? Thx again, T-


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## Talissa

> quoteeople have been mentioning finding out what bacteria they had. What test is being done for this?


Almost forgot...I used great smokies diagnostic lab, which also assesses your SCFA & butyrate levels, as well as inflammation along the wall(mine was high, 3 more points till IBD...)~http://www.gsdl.com/home/assessments/cdsa/...ide/index4.htmlAnd since I live outside the US, and couldn't go through a doc, this was the only way I could take the test~http://www.crohns.net/Merchant2/merchant.m...Diagnostic_Test


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## 13364

> quote:Originally posted by Angry Optimist:So here we go: I predict that in a few years, this 'smart pill' that you swallow, with cameras and computer, will be able to sample small intestinal bacteria and get a reading.I further predict that rich people will be able to start putting aside samples of their particular bacterial mixes from their intestines, the way people can put aside blood or stem cells now. In case they ever get ibs, they will have the right bacterial 'mix' to transplant.And I predict the bacterial balance is going to explain a LOT of things in some cases...hence a big future for probiotics.


Maybe GM probiotics ? Individually programmed bug mixtures to slow down your guts, speed mine up, make insulin for X, or vaccinations for Y. I'm not sure whether this is exciting or a nightmare scenario.Incidently, 1) I think you might be right to suspect Nexium treatment as an invitation to colonisation. Although I had previously had some symptoms, things got dramatically worse when I started taking lansoprazole, a related PPI.2) I recently asked my doc about vanco, on the grounds that it knocks out constipating bugs, and that 14 days of metronidazole hadn't improved matters. He wouldn't prescribe vanco ("too narrow a therapeutic range & thus too dangerous"). Also, he can't prescribe tegaserod, cisapride or rifaximin. Seems as if the entire UK parmacopeia consists of aspirin & castor oil only......


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## 15670

Tal, Can you let me know the source of the following. I'll be taking a quercetin/bromelain combo between meals - the former to help heal Leaky Gut ... the latter to help dissolve undigested food-protein that esccaped into the blood stream.Also: Are you aware of a particular and reputable Brand that combines the two (White Tiger's 'Quercenol', tho highly regarded does not). Thanks


> quote:And I also read in a study that taking the quercetin btn meals to clear proteins from the blood(thus lowering inflammation) increased the ability of antibiotics to get rid of staph infections of the lungs...(raised the success rate to 47%, at any rate)


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## Talissa

Hey guys,Re: Nexium etc & C Diff infection~Heartburn drugs linked to bacterial diarrhea Original study~http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/294/23/2989__________________________________Hey CDN, I ordered the NOW brand...I don't know if this meets your (well-grounded) high standards or not~http://www.webvitamins.com/product.aspx?id=20370Acc to the instructions from the book "gut reactions", I'm going to take 2 caps 3 xs/day btn meals...& keep fingers crossed! I've read up on quercetin & it's safe at high doses, as is bromelain, unless on ctn medications(mainly blood thinners)...How are you doing?___________________________mekis, you know castor oil is very handy to have around I hear!







I think your doc is pretty smart...this is backs up his rationale..its a bit scary, esp the last sentence, but worth reading(its a short abstract)~http://jac.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/48/4/463


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## 15670

Tal - thanks,Since posting, I've identified a handful, NOW included. Thank you.I'm fine, thanks - w/o benefit of Derma., I'm concluding skin disruption is Psoriasis. No surprise, really: Giardia parasite + Candida = Leaky Gut = AutoImmune (T1/T2 imbalance, T1 over-active) = Psoriasis. Pls let me know source of following, if you can, thanks. TAL: And I also read in a study that taking the quercetin btn meals to clear proteins from the blood(thus lowering inflammation) increased the ability of antibiotics to get rid of staph infections of the lungs...(raised the success rate to 47%, at any rate)


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## 13364

Hmmmm, so if I take vanco, on the one hand I might get fixed, on the other hand, it might just be the flap of the butterfly's wing which leads to the evolution of multiply-resistant bugs & the destruction of the human race. From where I stand, it's a tough call.......


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## 15670

Not of interest to moi ... may be to others:http://www.advitech.com/pdf/advitech_comm6oct2005_en.pdf


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## Talissa

CDN, I apologize. The study I referenced was one of MANY on quercetin in pubmed & I didn't bookmark the link. Now I traversed through there again & while I couldn't locate that part. study, I found pages indicating the antimicrobial effects of quercetin, along w/ other flavonoids like GSE...If you want to take a skip through pubmed~http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=journalsMaybe you'll find it...mekis--Didn't know you had that much power, eh? One fell swoop & the world is destroyed!But actually, I was more concerned about the bacteria in your part gut becoming multidrug resistant. The VRE bacteria can "kiss" the other normally neutral or potentially pathogenic bacteria in the gut, giving them the VRE's antibiotic resistant DNA, allowing them to overgrow when you take antibiotics the next time. Then even normal bacterial residents can become pathogenic when overgrown. Therein lies the problem. Its just the VRE bugs are part resistant, and like one article said, if they happened to "kiss"(gene transfer) their DNA to say another bacteria that's already resistant to diff antibiotics, you could end up w/ a bug that's virtually indestructible, by antibiotics anyways.That could've been more succinct I think, but I'm sure you get my point...your doc's looking out for you, more so I have to imagine, than the entire world.


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## 13364

It was actually more the narrow window of therapeutic safety that influenced my doc than the possibility of multiple antibiotic resistance - but, whatever, the drug(s) ain't available.Not wishing to patronise anyone, but I studied biochem (amongst other subjects) at Cambridge, so the concept of gene transfer is not unknown to me







Maybe I should do as others do & sign myself as Mekis, MA (Cantab), PhD. Unfortunately, education is no defence against getting sick.


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## Talissa

Dr. mekis, it is!Sounds like I patronized you. I'm sorry. Obviously you & I draw diff conclusions from the problem of antibiotic-resistance...T-


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## 13364

I don't think we draw different conclusions.







I was just making clear what my doc actually said - he was more concerned about possible auditory nerve damage than antibiotic resistance.By the way, I may have a Ph.D., but I still learn a lot from you, and Kath, and dozens of others here.....


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## 15221

Hey Folks, Day five on the Align Probiotics, once a day, nothing different to really report, except that I am waking up a little earlier, almost like the stuff is having an effect on my sleep pattern....It is truly amazing how these bugs, dead or alive affect every aspect of our organism, even if it is very subtle, it does.....still taking the bifdo, reuteri, metagenics, alternately as well. My best take on the situation is that the down regulation, or the multitude of signaling needed to completely normalize motitlity and digestion is a ways off.....so much goes on at the bio chemical level that even when we think we have the answers, like Mekis and his PHD... more questions come about and in the end like most forms of doctoring we still have to hope the theories and science pay off. Sometimes it does and other times it does not....The medical community is wonderful in some ways but in reality it has morphed into a giant billion dollar bureaucracy like so many elements of our modern society we seem to live in a cash versus common sense contradiction....virtual reality..........This sort of hypocricy is rampant in our world....then again maybe the people who taught the MDs thirty years ago were completely ignorant of the implications of destroying the fragile balance of our inner flora, though I have read documents that suggest otherwise... must try and make the best out of a bad situation......Keep on Keeping on.....


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## 13364

Not sure either I or my faithful hound of a PhD claimed to have the answers (let alone "The Answer"). Merely describing my own, very non-standard, quite-possibly-not-even-ibs-at-all experiences (can give link to description on another thread if necessary.) Seem to get it in the neck from both alts & allos, even though I see faults & merits in both. Oh well.


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## Talissa

Oh now, that's too bad you guys posted at the same time...ng just doesn't "know" you yet mekis, & I'm betting he felt bad when he read your post saying you're learning from others(aren't we all!)...you're cool in my book







So you've got names for us, lol, the alts & the allos, feel like I should be wearing ctn alt colors now...What am I if I take the Rifaximin? A bi- ???







Re: Rifaximin not available in the UK...I have a somewhat similar experience. Rifaximin is allowed in Nevis, but it isn't carried here. I've got a good friend who's a GP(she's British, btw) & she said she'd write me an Rx & if this part Canadian pharmacy carried it, they'd accept her Rx...well, of course its not available in Canada either...Hey ng, interesting insights...you nailed it...CDN, I checked out the link you gave. Sounds very interesting! Am surprised you're not more interested as it is also used for psoriasis???


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## 15670

Tal, was too cryptic: No interest yet ... could be year before market. Sorry


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## Talissa

CDN, ...I was (swallow..) _wrong_. I really hate it when that happens.







Disclaimer: You may very well know all of the following info, & if so, I'm sorry in advance...







and maybe it might be of help to someone else.When I was pubmed'g quercetin & bromelain, I was speed-reading through it all, one after the other after the other. And I may have mixed up bromelain for quercetin in making the antibiotics more effective. I still can't find the study, but it's referenced on many sites selling bromelain as well as medline drug info~"Human studies suggest that bromelain may increase the absorption of some antibiotics, notably amoxicillin and tetracycline, and increase levels of these drugs in the body."(So this then wouldn't really apply to Rifaximin as it isn't systemically absorbed...)But the main thing I was wrong about I realize now after more research is my underestimating the antiinflammatory effects of bromelain.First it IS known that IBSrs "produce lower amounts of the anti-inflammatory cytokine interleukin 10"(1) and "patients with IBS demonstrated an abnormal IL-10/IL-12 ratio, indicative of a proinflammatory, Th-1 state."....which was normalized by taking B infantis 35624(2)...ng, this will work for you, I just know it...fingers crossed...This has to do with bromelain because "Treatment with oral bromelain decreases colonic inflammation in the IL-10-deficient murine model of inflammatory bowel disease"(3) They used very high doses for this study... AND, "These studies demonstrate that bromelain enzymes can remain intact and proteolytically active within the murine gastrointestinal tract. They provide further support for the hypothesis that oral bromelain may potentially modify inflammation within the gastrointestinal tract via local proteolytic activity within the colonic microenvironment."(4)Also interesting~"There have been a few case reports in the medical literature about people with mild forms of ulcerative colitis who have gotten better by taking bromelain. Bromelain is an enzyme that comes from pineapples and has properties that both reduce inflammation and help digestion. In theory, therefore, this supplement may prove beneficial for people with ulcerative colitis. But, this idea must be tested on large groups of people with this inflammatory bowel condition before conclusions can be drawn."(5) ....Quercetin has more studies done on it than bromelain, with similar excellent results for inflammation just about everywhere--intestines, sinuses, lungs, joints, etc.So, another educational am, making me even more excited about receiving the querc/brom supplement...It's really bugging me that I can't find that study...T-_________________________1-- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum2-- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum3-- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum4-- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum5-- http://www.umm.edu/altmed/ConsConditions/U...eColitiscc.html


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## 15670

Tal, Well you sure as hell have my attention now. Presuming my skin outbreak is psoriasis, the nature of the underlying condition is also precisely what you address: Imbalance in immune cytokines. (There happens to be a ever-growing body of info - still largely anecdotal - suggesting Leaky Gut is a/the key cause of this imbalance [ie overactive T1s ... under-active T2s]. Thus far, I'm A Believer). Reliably measuring (ELISA) cytokine imbalance (Interlekins -6, -7 and -8, I beleive) among psoriatics was the focus of a fairly recent dermatological research study - posted online as PDF, and URL therefore not visible to moi.Google this:Simultaneous measurement of multiple Th1 and Th2 serum cytokines in psoriasis andcorrelation with disease severityI share this doc with you not because I know or recognise relevance to IBS. I know more about What Women Want than I know about IBS ... zip, nada, zilch. I just thought the conceptual commonalities would similarly intrigue you. Before I hand over my made-in-Canada money for Quercetin and/or Bromelain, I will surely review the info you posted - and, if you don't mind, may have follow-up comments or questions. Thank you again for taking the time to dig this up.


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## 15670

And this from a company perhaps best known for this laundry soap:http://www.aligngi.com/index.shtml


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## 15670

Found HTLM afterall ... http://www.hindawi.com/journals/mi/volume-...5103000437.html


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## overitnow

Well, the Provex uses Bromelain along with two fungals and that quadruples the absorption of the grapeseed. They also put it in their glucosamine in order to get more iinto the joints. From the effects on my hip, that certainly works as well.As a side note, they use the quercetin in the Provex for it's platelette controlling abilities. If someone is using daily aspirin, they should probably talk to their doctor before adding this to their daily rituals.Mark


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## 15221

Nice articles Talissa, I found some more that back up those very same assertations, I need to start taking it again, I stopped for a while, but I agree that it's universally accepted by the scientific community to inhibit inflammation of many sorts.... another goodie I take is Betaine, not only is it good for our digestive tracts it helps lower your cholesterol, well Homocysteine levels to more precise, which is actually more important if your worried about the factors that contribute to athersclerosis...... Dr. Paul Cheney on Betaine for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia Patientsby Carol SieverlingImmuneSupport.com11-07-2001 Editorâ€™s Note: The following information is based on tapes of Carol Sieverlingâ€™s October 2000 visit with Dr. Cheney. He gave her permission to share this information, but has not reviewed or edited it. When Dr. Cheney reviewed the results of my CDSA (Comprehensive Digestive Stool Analysis) from Great Smokies Laboratories (www.gsdl.com), he noted indications of "proteolytic problems" - trouble digesting proteins. First, he confirmed I was taking digestive enzymes, which he believes are essential for all CFIDS patients. Dr. Cheney then suggested the supplement betaine. Most CFIDS patients donâ€™t have enough stomach acid, and betaine HCL (hydrochloric acid) is stomach acid. Stomach acid is a paradoxical substance: too little can actually make you think you have too much. Many people think they have acid reflux or GERD, and they take Prilosec or other antacids to reduce the amount of stomach acid. In actuality, they may not have enough acid in their stomach to trigger the opening of a valve at its base. When food begins to fill the stomach, acid is released to assist with digestion. When enough acid is detected, the valve opens, releasing the food into the small intestine. If there isnâ€™t enough acid, the valve doesnâ€™t open. The food, mixed with what little acid is present, is forced back up the esophagus, creating a burning sensation. Paradoxically, the answer to the burning sensation is more acid, not less. Antacids can create a vicious cycle in these cases. Dr. Cheney said stomach acid does at least four important things: (1) It creates an acid trap to kill bacteria in food. A lack of stomach acid allows bacterial overgrowths to develop, particularly in the small intestine. A UCLA study of 52 FM/CFS patients found bacterial overgrowths in 90% of the patients. Antibiotics were given to wipe out all bacteria (good and bad). Pain, fatigue, and cognition improved. Dr. Cheney strongly recommends betaine supplementation instead of antibiotics. (2) According to Dr. Cheney, betaine "clips proteins," part of the process of digesting proteins. The enzymes (natural or supplemented) that break down protein need acid in order to work. You may take lots of enzymes, but if you donâ€™t have enough acid, they wonâ€™t be effective. Plant-based digestive enzymes are the exception. They donâ€™t need acid, though we still need the acid for all the other reasons listed here. (3) Betaine helps extract minerals from food. Stomach acid is required for the body to absorb minerals. Without enough stomach acid, mineral depletion results. (4) When the "acid chyme" (partially digested food mixed with acid) is released from the stomach, it enters the duodenum (first part of the small intestine). If enough acid is present, the pancreas will release pancreatic enzymes, and the liver will release bile. These are essential for good digestion and absorption. Without enough acid, these enzymes are not released, compromising digestion and absorption. Most CFS/FM patients need to be taking supplemental betaine. Regarding dosage, take as much as you can tolerate. Most patients take one or two caps per meal. A few can tolerate only 1/2 cap. A few take much more â€" up to 7 caps a meal. As with so many things, the dose is very individualized. If you take too little, youâ€™ll have that paradoxical burning sensation from the food/acid mixture coming back up the esophagus, because there isnâ€™t enough acid to trigger the release of food into the small intestine. If you take more, but still not quite enough, the food/acid mixture will still come back up the esophagus. However, now it will burn even worse because it has more acid in it - just not enough to open the valve at the bottom of the stomach. If you take too much, you will experience "dumping", as Dr. Cheney calls it â€" usually diarrhea or a general "yucky" feeling. One patient began taking betaine a couple of months ago and has finally escaped from the horrible pain and discomfort after meals that has plagued her for the past five years. Try taking betaine to improve your digestion, absorption, and kill off bacterial overgrowths. [As with any new treatment, discuss betaine supplementation with your physician first.]


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## 15221

I know this is about chronic fatigue but the IL 10 pathway discussed further down in the article suggests the two syndromes might share a common psyiological response....I can attest that I was married to both these bad syndromes....my qusetion is what came first the chicken....I see my situation a little differently than the late DR. has theorized as Talissas Pub Med article suggests I might have inherited a predisposition to a GI mucosa that produces less IL-10... genetics, a virus that mimicked IL 10 might not apply because my body would have been primed to fight pathogens of the bacterial variety already, allowed the body to burn out the IL-10 and suppressed the IL-12 so that viruses such as those listed below which were currently inactive to re-activate...suppression no longer effective, Immune system burnt out......hey tell me what you think....? Side Effects of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome The causes of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome are as yet undetermined, but studies have shown that multiple nutrient deficiencies, food intolerance, or extreme physical or mental stress may trigger chronic fatigue. Studies have also indicated that Chronic Fatigue Syndrome may be activated by the immune system, various abnormalities of the hypothalamic-pituitary axes, or by the reactivation of certain infectious agents in the body. Some Chronic Fatigue Syndrome patients were found to have low levels of PBMC beta-endorphin and other neurotransmitters. Thyroid deficiency may also be a contributing factor in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (refer to the Thyroid Deficiency protocol to find out how to determine if you are deficient in thyroid hormone production). A number of the triggers that may cause or exacerbate Chronic Fatigue Syndrome are discussed below.Chronic Viral Infections and Chronic Fatigue SyndromeSymptoms of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome resemble a postviral state and for this reason chronic viral conditions have been thought to contribute to Chronic Fatigue Syndrome in some patients. Several viruses have been associated with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, including (Manian 1994): Herpes virus, particularly human herpes virus 6 (HHV-6) Epstein-Barr virus (a herpes virus which causes infectious mononucleosis) Cytomegalovirus (a herpes virus) Coxsackie viruses B1 and B4 If you are infected with a chronic, energy-depleting virus, there are conventional and alternative therapies that may be of help. It should be noted that most individuals have been exposed to pathogenic viruses that can be reactivated by adverse environmental conditions and cause chronic fatigue and other diseases.Studies indicate that the Epstein-Barr virus may be suppressed with bilberry extract (anthocyanins), curcumin, carotenoids, and chlorophylls. The exact doses of these natural plant extracts that might be effective against Epstein-Barr have yet to be determined.Back to Top --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Immune Response to Bacterial and Viral Antigens and Chronic Fatigue SyndromeThere are two different types of T-helper cells that defend against different organisms: T-helper 1 cells target organisms that invade cells, such as viruses. Interleukin-12 (IL-12) stimulates Th1 activation. T-helper 2 cells (Th2) target organisms that are found outside of cells. Th2 cells are involved in humoral or antibody-mediated immunity and are triggered by interleukin-10 (IL-10), which is stimulated by bacteria, parasites, toxins, and allergens. Each of the T-helper cells are activated by different cytokines (see following table). In a healthy condition, there is a balance between Th1 and Th2 activity. When presented with an acute infection, the Th1 system predominates (and Th2 is suppressed). In chronic infections, the Th2 system predominates, leading to antibody production.Cytokine Profiles and Functions of T-Helper CellsCell Cytokines Functions T-helper 1 Interferon-gamma Activates cytotoxic cells Interleukin-2 Inhibits Th2 cells T-helper 2 Interleukin-4, -5, -6, and -10 Activation and maturation of B cells Inhibits Th1 cells Viruses, especially herpes viruses (such as Epstein-Barr virus, cytomegalovirus, and human herpes virus 6), make proteins that mimic IL-10, which activates the immune system and remains untouched by the body's natural defenses.Addressing the two different types of T-helper cells has been the focus of work by Paul Cheney, M.D. His protocols are designed to stimulate Th1 and inhibit Th2.According to Dr. Cheney, chronic fatigue patients have activation of T-helper 2 cells (Th2). Th2 activation suppresses T-helper 1 (Th1) activity, particularly cytotoxic T-cells and natural killer (NK) cells, which are the main defense against viruses. In this way the viruses are able to "fool" the immune system.Several mechanisms can be used to stop the process of Th2 activation:Enhance natural killer (NK) cell function. Lower interleukin-10 (IL-10) levels, which will reduce Th2 activation. Raise interleukin-12 (IL-12) levels, which stimulate Th1 activation. An article in the Journal of Clinical Infectious Disease measured NK cell activity in 50 healthy individuals and 20 patients with clinically defined chronic fatigue immune dysfunction syndrome (CFIDS). The patients were divided into three groups based on severity of clinical status. NK cell activity decreased with the increasing severity of the clinical condition (Ojo-Amaize et al. 1994).Several nutritional supplements, including essential fatty acids, vitamin A, vitamin E, DHEA, and melatonin, have been found to have beneficial effects on the Th1:Th2 ratio (see the Natural Therapies section).For more information about Dr. Cheney's work, see www.sonic.net/cndsBack to Top --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Infection and Inflammation, and Chronic Fatigue SyndromeA theory was published by Dr. Martin L. Pall, a professor of biochemistry and basic medical sciences at Washington State University, in 2001. The theory starts with the observation that infections that precede and may therefore induce Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and related conditions act to induce excessive production of inflammatory cytokines. This initial step activates a series of reactions:Inflammatory cytokines induce, in turn, nitric oxide synthase (iNOS), which synthesizes excessive amounts of nitric oxide. Nitric oxide reacts with superoxide to produce the potent oxidant peroxynitrite. Peroxynitrite acts via six known biochemical mechanisms to increase the levels of both nitric oxide and superoxide, which react to produce more peroxynitrite. In this way, once peroxynitrite levels are elevated, they may act to continue the elevation, thus producing a self-sustaining vicious cycle. According to the theory, it is this cycle that maintains the chronic symptoms of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, and it is this cycle, therefore, that must be interrupted to effectively treat this condition (Pall 2001a).Breaking the chain of inflammation caused by chronic viral infections would require a three-part protocol:First, the underlying viral infection should be addressed with antiviral supplements (such as ginseng, echinacea, and lactoferrin) and those that shift the Th1:Th2 ratio (such as essential fatty acids and vitamin E). Second, inflammation should be reduced with anti-inflammatory agents (such as essential fatty acids and curcumin). Third, the nitric oxide system should be supported with supplements (such as arginine, vitamin B2 [riboflavin], vitamin B3 [niacin], and folate). Back to Top --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Multiple Chemical Sensitivity and Chronic Fatigue SyndromeMultiple chemical sensitivity (MCS) is a controversial term. Synonyms for MCS are twentieth century disease, Environmental Illness, Total Allergy syndrome, Chemical AIDS, and Idiopathic Environmental Illness. It is believed by some that exposure to a chemical (or many chemicals) can trigger a complex of symptoms called MCS. It appears to affect young women at a higher rate than men. There has not been a consensus on the specific definition for MCS. The disorder is characterized by recurring symptoms affecting multiple organ systems. The individual demonstrates symptoms of MCS when exposed to many unrelated chemicals, in doses that are far below those recognized to cause harm in the general population. No single, widely accepted test of physiologic function can be correlated with the symptoms (Cullen 1987a; 1987b).The theories for MCS include, but are not limited to, dysfunction of the immune system and neurological abnormalities--specifically, chemical sensitization of the limbic system--and various psychological theories. To date, no studies have validated any theory. One study points out that MCS, fibromyalgia, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, and post-traumatic stress disorder are overlapping diseases, sharing common symptoms. Very often, each disorder seems to be induced by a relatively short-term stress, which is followed by a chronic pathology, suggesting that the stress may act by inducing a self-perpetuating vicious cycle.Pall et al. (2001b) believe that the vicious cycle mechanism is the explanation for the etiology of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and MCS, based on the elevated levels of nitric oxide and its potent oxidant product, peroxynitrite, found in both conditions.Beckman et al. reported that peroxynitrite reacts with and inactivates several important mitochondrial enzymes leading to metabolic energy dysfunction (Beckman et al. 1993; Radi et al. 1994), characteristics of both Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and MCS.Back to Top --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Metal Sensitivity and Chronic Fatigue SyndromeThe effect of dental metal (amalgam) removal was studied in 111 patients with metal hypersensitivity and symptoms resembling Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. After consultation with a dentist, the patients decided to replace their metal restorations with nonmetallic materials. A significant number of patients had metal-specific lymphocytes in the blood. Nickel was the most common, followed by inorganic mercury, gold, phenyl-mercury, cadmium, and palladium. As compared to lymphocyte responses in healthy subjects, the Chronic Fatigue Syndrome group had significantly increased responses to several metals, especially to inorganic mercury, phenyl-mercury, and gold. Following dental metal removal, 83 patients (76%) reported long-term health improvement; 24 patients (22%) reported unchanged health; and two patients (2%) reported worsening of symptoms. Following dental metal replacement, the lymphocyte reactivity to metals decreased as well (Stejskal et al. 1999) (see "Mercury Amalgam Toxicity" in the May 2001 issue of Life Extension Magazine).Back to Top --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Oxidative Stress and Chronic Fatigue SyndromeStudies have shown that oxidative stress plays a role in the development of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (Fulle et al. 2000; Richards et al. 2000; Logan et al. 2001). Oxidative stress is a term used to describe the body's prolonged exposure to oxidative factors that cause more free radicals than the body can neutralize. Free radicals are produced as a byproduct of normal metabolic functions. When there are enough free radical scavengers present, such as glutathione and vitamins C, E, and A, along with zinc and other nutrients, through normal metabolic functioning, the body will "mop up" or neutralize the free radicals. When free radicals are not neutralized, the body can become vulnerable to cellular destruction.A relationship between abnormal oxidative stress and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome can be found in the literature. An article in the journal Life Science described a study that showed that patients with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome had lower serum transferrin levels and higher lipoprotein peroxidation. These results indicate that patients with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome have increased susceptibility of LDL and VLDL to copper-induced peroxidation and that this is related both to their lower levels of serum transferrin and to other unidentified pro-oxidizing effects of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (Manuel y Keenoy et al. 2001).Exercise has been shown to increase the production of oxidants. Fortunately, regular endurance exercise results in adaptations in the skeletal muscle antioxidant capacity, which protects myocytes (muscle cells) against the deleterious effects of oxidants and prevents extensive cellular damage (McCully et al. 1996; Powers et al. 1999).A study of the oxygen delivery to muscles in patients with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome found that oxygen delivery and oxidative metabolism was significantly reduced in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome patients after exercise (compared with sedentary controls) (McCully et al. 1999).Back to Top --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Possible Related Side Effects of Chronic Fatigue SyndromeOrthostatic HypotensionOrthostatic hypotension is defined as an excessive fall in blood pressure on standing, usually greater than 20/10 mmHg. It is considered to be a manifestation of abnormal blood pressure regulation due to a variety of causes.Hypotension, particularly orthostatic hypotension, is a common symptom in chronic fatigue patients. Many people with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome have chronic low blood pressure (the normal is 120/80 mmHg), which is made even worse on standing. This may be a particular problem in the morning, when standing can cause dizziness. Exercise or a heavy meal may exacerbate the symptoms. Syncope is a loss of consciousness and postural tone caused by diminished cerebral blood flow. Syncope often occurs during the morning shower, perhaps due to the vasodilating effect of hot water.There are several mechanisms that govern blood pressure. Upon standing, a large amount of blood pools in the veins of the legs and trunk. The transient decrease in venous return to the heart results in a low blood pressure. The body responds with a sympathetic-mediated release of catacholamines that increase heart rate contraction and vasoconstrict the arteries. With continued standing, antidiuretic hormone (ADH) is secreted which activates the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system, subsequently causing sodium and water retention and an expansion of the circulating blood volume.There are many causes of orthostatic hypotension, including:Hypovolemia (low blood volume) induced by excessive use of diuretic agents (e.g., loop diuretics, such as furosemide, bumetanide, and ethacrynic acid) and relative hypovolemia due to vasodilator therapy with nitrate preparations and calcium antagonists (verapamil, nifedipine, or diltiazem) or with angiotensin converting enzyme (ACE) inhibitors. Histamine, a key player in allergic reactions, induces vasodilation and hypotension. Potassium deficiency (hypokalemia) impairs the reactivity of vascular smooth muscle and may limit the increase in peripheral vascular resistance on standing The adrenocortical hypofunction of Addison's disease may lead to orthostatic hypotension in the absence of adequate salt intake. Several classes of drugs reversibly impair autonomic reflexes and reduce blood pressure on standing as an important adverse effect. These include many drugs used to treat psychiatric disorders such as the monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs) (isocarboxazid, phenelzine, and tranylcypromine) used to treat depression; the tricyclic antidepressants (nortriptyline, amitriptyline, desipramine, imipramine, and protriptyline) or tetracyclic antidepressants; and the phenothiazine antipsychotic drugs (chlorpromazine, promazine, and thioridazine). Other drugs that may produce orthostatic hypotension are quinidine, L-dopa, barbiturates, and alcohol. Elevated Homocysteine LevelsHomocysteine is a sulfur-containing amino acid that is produced as a byproduct of methionine metabolism. When the body has an adequate supply of cofactors, such as vitamins B6, B12, and folic acid, homocysteine is detoxified, rendering compounds useful for other functions. Currently, homocysteine levels are in the forefront as a cardiovascular risk because of the damage that can occur to blood vessels and arteries when homocysteine levels are high.A study of 12 women who fulfilled the criteria for both fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome found that, in all the patients, the homocysteine levels were increased in the cerebrospinal fluid (CSF). There was a significant positive correlation between CSF homocysteine and B12 levels and fatigue-ability, as rated on the Comprehensive Psychopathological Rating Scale. The authors concluded that "increased homocysteine levels in the central nervous system characterize patients fulfilling the criteria for both fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome." They also noted that B12 deficiency caused a deficient remethylation of homocysteine. Therefore, a vitamin B12 deficiency can be considered a contributing factor to the higher homocysteine elevations found in these patient groups (Regland et al. 1997).Glutathione DeficiencyGlutathione is a tripeptide made up of three amino acids: glycine, cysteine, and gamma-glutamic acid. Glutathione functions as a modulator of cellular homeostasis, including detoxification of oxyradicals and metals. It also acts as a potent free radical scavenger that can help prevent damage to DNA and RNA, detoxify heavy metals, boost immune function, and assist the liver in detoxification through its various enzymes. Levels of intracellular glutathione decrease with age, lowering the body's ability to detoxify free radicals and the many important enzymes glutathione makes.An article in the journal Medical Hypothesis proposed that glutathione, an antioxidant essential for lymphocyte function, may be depleted in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome patients. Glutathione is needed for both the immune system and for aerobic muscular contraction. The authors proposed that glutathione depletion by an activated immune system also causes the muscular fatigue and myalgia associated with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (Bounous et al. 1999).Cysteine is a precursor to glutathione. It has been hypothesized that glutathione and cysteine metabolism may play a role in skeletal muscle wasting and muscle fatigue. The combination of abnormally low plasma cysteine and glutathione levels, low natural killer (NK) cell activity (with a resulting susceptibility to viral infection), skeletal muscle wasting or muscle fatigue, and increased rates of urea production define a complex of abnormalities that is tentatively called "low CG syndrome." These symptoms are found in patients with HIV infection, cancer, major injuries, sepsis, Crohn's disease, ulcerative colitis, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, and to some extent in overtrained athletes (Droge et al. 1997).Source: American Association for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, c/o Harborview Medical Center, 325 Ninth Avenue, Box 359780, Seattle, WA 98104Back to Top


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## Talissa

CDN, That's the only thing about Align..P & G...ugh. I also wish someone besides P & G had run the studies...Btw, this is what ng is trying this week for the first time, and what helped another giardia vic on the B infantis thread in the Products section--Mark. It helped some peeps, not others. The usual MO...ng--Ironically, I have some betaine in my cupboards that I'd stopped taking!...I don't really know if I need it. I don't have pain after eating & I eat meat, but rarely that much at one time...I may give it another go though...Lots to wonder about w/ the cytokines. For the psoriasis as well. I came ax a psoriasis bb once, & it was like being here....peeps trying the same things...So it seems lots of conditions have the Th1 state(inflammatory), increased nitric oxide, lower beneficial bacteria, etc...just like w/ a low-grade chronic infection. Same things are going on...Could it be that for some of us its an infection, in some cases well-hidden(some bacteria can physically "hide" in immune system cells, very hard to catch through stool samples) and then others have the genetic loop malfunction happening...Either way, lowering inflammation seems the way go, to me...Then maybe the probiotics become more effective, better able to do their thing...all supposition of course.But you make me feel very lucky ng that I didn't get CFS...maybe the difference is a viral infection in CFS? Does it have to be genetic?later, Tal


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## 15670

Whomever (probiotics):Not entirely helpful, I know ... http://www.ehjournal.net/content/4/1/25One supplier (oddly, failing to identify potencies):http://www.naturesway.com/products%5Fcatalog/- click on left side-bar menu:.Primadophilus Reuteriâ„¢, Capsulesâ€¢Primadophilus Reuteriâ„¢, Powder


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## Talissa

And...P Reuteri is the probiotic I'm taking, due to reading of so many others benefit from it..I'm taking the caps now w/ the powder on the way.I'm taking Reuteri along w/ the Florastor...Here's some more info on it~http://ibsgroup.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/43110261/m/401108612This didn't go over too well on the main bb....too many allos???


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## 21506

I have contacts with Nature's Way, and might be able to find out potencies for Reuteri, if it would be helpful...carla


> quote:Originally posted by catsdeadnow:Whomever (probiotics):One supplier (oddly, failing to identify potencies):http://www.naturesway.com/products%5Fcatalog/- click on left side-bar menu:.Primadophilus Reuteriâ„¢, Capsulesâ€¢Primadophilus Reuteriâ„¢, Powder


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## 21506

Ok, Reuteri (Nature's Way, enteric coated caps) claim of potency:10 to the eighth CFU per cap-100 million?-(plus L. acidophilus and L. rhamnosus at 10 billion microorganisms per gramp, whatever that comes to)fwiw,carla


> quote:Originally posted by catsdeadnow:Whomever (probiotics):One supplier (oddly, failing to identify potencies):http://www.naturesway.com/products%5Fcatalog/- click on left side-bar menu:.Primadophilus Reuteriâ„¢, Capsulesâ€¢Primadophilus Reuteriâ„¢, Powder


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## 21506

Talissa, Noguts, thanks for your welcom.I wrote a fat long response with my flagyl failure, my alt regimen for the past 4 weeks, and how much it's helping. For some reason, my two short posts made it, but the long one was sucked up by the aether demons, and I'm waaaay to tired to write it again. How very que bumar.I'll get back to you later. My GSE/olive leaf/oregano oil cocktail is definitely working after four weeks- some small but important improvements. Yes, to probiotics- multidophilus12 and reuteri. Peppermint oil[enteric], ginger caps, a custom brewed herbal tea, digestive enzymes, fiber and Heather's dietary restrictions to soluble fiber all helping, to make a few pages into a paragraph.Took me a sproinking hour to type all that stuff up. All gone. Must sleep.Kind regards, pepperming and hot water bottles,Carla


> quote:Originally posted by Talissa:Hey Carla, Welcome! I'm glad you joined us, fellow flagyl vic, and I'm really glad the GSE is helping you. What's getting better for you? Are you also taking probiotics? I'm currently eating w/e I want now, like a complete normal, going twice ev am solid, very pretty brown, non-puffed from fiber....& like ng said, I'd probably get back to completely normal(needing no supplements) if I followed a stricter diet...ah well...


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## Talissa

> quote:I wrote a fat long response with my flagyl failure, my alt regimen for the past 4 weeks, and how much it's helping. For some reason, my two short posts made it, but the long one was sucked up by the aether demons, and I'm waaaay to tired to write it again. How very que bumar.


I'd say. Da**. I want to hear your story...some other time maybe...That's happened to me before here, extremely frustrating. I think something was wrong with the bb last night. Just the short post above on L Reuteri took forever to be accepted--I was afraid it'd disappear, so I copied it to the clipboard, just in case...I'm glad your protocol's doing some good things for you. I read about your homemade brew on the tea thread--wow. You're definitely committed to beating this thing. Love it!Please try again w/ your flagyl experience, etc. sometime??Thx, Tal


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## cat crazy

TalissaJust remembered in one of your posts you mentioned "anmegrl" had great success from taking some specific probiotic. Do you know which thread you had posted it on? If you remember can you repost it?As far as B Infantis probiotic I found one in the health food store which had other p/b and b infantis included in it. Did not help me when I took it alone for 4 wks and then later combined it with Vsl#3 for a wk but nothing. However combination of Vsl#3 and Florastor seems to be helping quite a bit. Still would like to know which one anmegrl was taking and perhaps combining another p/b might be more potent Hanna


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## Talissa

Hanna, I got my old board buds mixed up. It was Calid~http://ibsgroup.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/431...67106951/inc/-1If you do a search on google for post here on the bb, you get more results than if you do a search using this bb's search function. Go figure...Hey, while you're here, I just got the Pimental book. Sure validates how I've gotten better...altho he suggests eating white flour and aspartame. Don't get that one. Anyways, I'm still thinking using the Rx antibiotics isn't the way to go.Didn't you try that protocol? Do you have any theories as to why it didn't work for you??Thx, T-


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## 13364

About 11 posts back on this thread, there was an interesting piece by noguts about low stomach acid (hypochlorhydria), its possible effect on gastric emptying, and betaine supplementation. As my primary symptom is a paradoxical & drug resistant heartburn, hypochlorhydria is something I have often considered as a possible factor. However, one big stumbling block to this hypothesis is that people who take Nexium or similar PPIs, which are claimed to reduce acid secretion by up to 90%, don't in the main complain of reduced gastric emptying & continuing heartburn. If the pyloric sphincter only opened in response to increased acidity, these guys would never empty their stomachs. Further comment welcomed.


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## 15670

Tal,Can I ask for suggestion?I have MD appnt Monday as follow-up to 7-day treatment w FLAGYL (two Xs 500 mg/day) to eliminate Giardia.I expected to ask MD to requisition stool test to confirm Giardia gone. Given your and others' experience with FLAGYL-caused/implicated problemos, could you advise any specific bugs that ought to be screened in conductin the stool test (or does such a test automatically screen for a series)?Thanks.


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## Talissa

Hey cats, It's rare for the standard labs to "catch" nosocomial infections(infections from antibiotics) because the organisms which cause the diarrhea or constipation when overgrown, aren't uncommon in human stools. It needs to be a lab like GSDL which measures the level of the bacteria involved...This is a more complicated Q than it seems. My overgrowth from flagyl was/is:KlebsiellaCitrobacter FreundiiThese are both aerobic gram negative bacteria. Flagyl is Rx'd to eradicate Giardia & other protozoans, as well as anaerobic bacteria. If you google metronidazole resistant bacteria, you'll find that some anaerobic bacteria that are emerging resistant to flagyl include: B fragilis, H pylori, clostridiums...all can produce "IBS sypmtoms". This includes giardia, which is resistant in an approx 10% cases... It's very scattered info though.As far as aerobic bacteria, like the ones found in this article that can also cause "IBS symptoms" ~"The 10 most prevalent nosocomial pathogens (excluding coagulase-negative Staphylococcus) were examined: Staphylococcus aureus, Enterococcus spp., Escherichia coli, Enterobacter spp., Klebsiella spp., Proteus spp., Serratia spp., Citrobacter spp., Pseudomonas aeruginosa, and Stenotrophomonas maltophila. The first two were grouped as gram positive, and the last eight were grouped as gram negative."http://aac.asm.org/cgi/content/full/45/1/275So from the above list, Klebs, Citrobs, Proteus, Enterobacters, & E Coli are all aerobic(which also means found primarily in the sm intestine.) You'd think that the problem would simply be that Flagyl doesn't kill them so they can overgrow & disrupt GI function...However, it's even worse than that~"Three of four aerobic bacteria also inactivated metronidazole, although at generally slower rates than the anaerobes, but this was not associated with a bactericidal effect against these organisms. The presence of aerobic bacteria in mixed cultures with Bacteroides fragilis did not, moreover, inhibit the bactericidal activity of metronidazole against the latter organism. However, the possibility still remains that, in vivo, aerobic bacteria capable of inactivating metronidazole could inhibit the action of the drug against anaerobes in mixed infections."http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlere...gi?artid=352468So the list of possible bacteria to cause problems then extends to many anaerobic bacteria as well,in additon to the ones above which are resistant, because the aerobic bacteria -may- be able to "inactivate" the flagyl...Jeesh...I'd take the CDSA from GDSL. If your MD okay's it, insurance can pick up the tab...ps...I just found out that flagyl has the dreaded FDA "black box" warning on it. This means MDs are supposed to tell us(mine didn't) that metronidazole is carcinogenic and causes cancer in mice & rats...ain't that grand...so hopefully your doc won't want to extend the flagyl Rx longer...


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## Talissa

pss...Also don't want to give the impression great smokies diagnostic lab is perfect...these bacteria can be so tricky.On www.badbugs.org I read of one guy who had to have his stool tested once(3 consec days) ev month for 3 months before they found "B fragilis"...which is particularly good at hiding...Bad! Bugs!


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## 15670

Thanks Tal - I'd have to have more severe symptoms to be willing to introduce Smokies to my MD: Either I'll do it alone ... or not do it. Nothing in canada would cover.I appreciate your help.


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## Talissa

I didn't know you're in Canada..lots of Canadians live on Nevis. I've even been to a few Canadian Thanksgivings here! So, you can't get Rifaximin either...hopefully? that'll change.Here's a more condensed list~AEROBIC GRAM POSITIVE: Enterococcus faecalis; Staph Aureus; AEROBIC GRAM NEGATIVE: Campylobacter jejuni Citrobacter diversus Citrobacter freundii Enterobacter cloacae E.Coli Klebsiella pneumonae Proteum mirabilis Proteus vulgaris Pseudomonas aeruginose Salmonella typhi Shigella flexneri Shigella sonnei. Plus the H pylori, B fragilis, clostridia...All can cause varying degrees of infection, varying symptoms, like C Diff...


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## 15670

Tal, in gratitude, I'm hoping this will be of value to you, knowing your interest in the connection vs bowel disorder and probiotics: http://gut.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/53/1/1http://gut.bmjjournals.com/cgi/eletters/53/1/1#321


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## Talissa

Wow. Great info. Even tho I didn't need to be "repaid", we're definitely even.Good info on nitric oxide in the first refer. I've been reading & reading on it. Its a pretty complicated/being investigated function of the body's arsenal to fight off infection...which has to have to do with the dysfunctional immune system of dsybiosis referenced in the second reference, the letter...Esp found this interesting~"We now understand that dysbiosis in our species could be due to the abnormal food (drifting away from diets having Palaeolithic pattern), or anti-metabolites produced by pathogenic microorganisms or by antibiotics taken as drugs. The dysbiosis is not a unique condition. The dysbiosis caused by eating high meat low fibre diet may be different than the one caused due to intake of antibiotics. Similarly, dysbiosis expressed by flatulence and bloating may be different than dysbiosis expressed by chronic diarrhoea or dysentery. The dysbiotic body has dysfunctional immune system.[45,46] "I don't have the flatulence problem at all. With the right supplement mix, no bloating...Just chronic D...And the info on bifidobacteria & prebiotics was fascinating.Thanks! Tal


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## 15670

You're quite welcome, Tal. It's a mighty credible pub, and now that you have link directly in, you'll be able to search archives (otherwise can pop up as 'Members Only').You should know I've made/read more posts thru this group than have ever in any others. You're a big part of that. I find many Issue-Groups tend to feature too many How-Impressive-Am-I? postings ... and social banalities masquerading as relevant info. I imagine I'm as good at (and tolerant of) either as the next guy, 'cept right now I'm bloody focussed on Fixing My Guts. Thanks for how you've been helping. Here's an article at the other end of the spectrum. If it's useful context to address dysbiosis with Anal Allopaths, consider it a credit towards future exchange. I'd downloaded to gently share with my MD MOnday. http://www.renewlife.com/pdf/gutreactions.pdf


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## Talissa

"social banalities masquerading as relevant info"...I'm thinking you're the one who should write the book.







I don't know how you did the "Gut" trick, but I'm sure thankful you did. Do you think you could do the same magic, to pull the full text out of your hat, for this abstract~Germs, Gas and the Gut; the Evolving Role of the Enteric Flora in IBS.It's Amer Journal of Gastroenterology...I can't even get to where you can pay for it at B-S. Is this because its in the print edition only, do you think? Or am I doing something wrong?Btw, another new-to-me article above. Interesting to hear the experts discuss it. That viciously frustrating cycle caused by hyperpermeability...I do think that's why the answer isn't as simple as taking some antibiotics & going on your way..._________________________________Just tried again, and got to the purchase article area. Maybe it was too soon last time I tried...Now whether or not its worth paying for is another Q.T-


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## 15221

Nice article CDN, more emphasis on the power of microbes good and bad, sort of like a microcosim of everything in our world, too much of a bad thing can kill us.....Mekis, I agree that the hypothesis on which low stomach acid can cause slow emptying is a little lacking, I never had constipation, but it might play a role for some. I know my acid levels were way low, I had bad heartburn for a few years and then it dissapeared, but my stomach emptied fast as everything was in hyperdrive, body was in a full on immune reponse trying to get rid of some dysmbiosis somewhat pathogenic friends lodged in the walls of my 23 feet of digestive track.....Tallissa, thanks for the list of the bacterias, I never really connected the dots on the Klebselia being aerobic and probably only affecting my small intestines, but then again I am not sure this is the way it was, I can only summize that a certain amount should reside in the small bowel, but when others keeping it in check were beaten up by my several doses of antibiotics, it probably grew north and south, causing more imbalances in the domino effect many of us have....good thing you have caught it before it got to the state that mine did....men are often too proud or dumb to really get help, they put it off till its way too late, as I still know people with Chrons disease and they don't follow diets or take supplements they just let the MDs treat them as I did for years.......School of very hard knocks....best thread on this BB


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## Talissa

> quote:I never really connected the dots on the Klebselia being aerobic and probably only affecting my small intestines


Ummm, not really. I said -mainly- in the small intestine, because they're aerobic, in the ileum to be exact(as far as what's known today--they find now that the human stomach is home to many bacteria and it was thought to be basically sterile...). Aerobic bacteria are also found in the first part of the colon. The cecum. What's interesting for us D peeps, is that the ileum is the area where normally functioning guts absorb bile acids, & the cecum is the region for fermenting carbohydrates...Talk about drawing some lines...But other than in the cecum, the rest of the colon has no oxygen, thus the aerobic bacteria can't survive there. Its estimated that 99% of our total gut bacteria are anaerobic...I think for all us, as we learn more, can look back & see different things we could've done, diff choices, esp following doctors orders for too long--the school of hard knocks is right.Spent way too much time here today! See you guys, T-


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## Talissa

ng, one more thing







, here's my theory on why even though I've got hyperpermeability, that I haven't been effected by CFS, arthritis, etc(kow!). My main overgrowth is pathogen citrobacter freundii(kp wasn't as overgrown). I read that in the presence even of a compromised mucosal barrier(LGS), the citrobacter likes to stay in the intestines..."doesn't travel"...My bug's a Homebody! I'm counting my lucky stars for having a shy critter...


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## 15670

You've found the only way I know to access a Blackwell-repped pub: single-issue payment or subscription (unless someone else has posted it somewhere else ...).This isn't of equal value, but had 742 words of interest to moi: http://www.med.unifi.it/didonline/anno-II/...otaEnterico.pdf


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## 13364

re stomach acid & even further off topic than usual:I just happened today to read that South American anteaters, unlike virtually all other mammals, don't secrete HCl in their stomachs; they rely on the formic acid in the ants they eat.Perhaps I'm eating the wrong kind of meat......


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## Talissa

I just have to say the obvious here, THAT was funny!!







Thx m


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## 20074

> quote:Originally posted by Talissa:ng, one more thing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , here's my theory on why even though I've got hyperpermeability, that I haven't been effected by CFS, arthritis, etc(kow!). My main overgrowth is pathogen citrobacter freundii(kp wasn't as overgrown). I read that in the presence even of a compromised mucosal barrier(LGS), the citrobacter likes to stay in the intestines..."doesn't travel"...My bug's a Homebody! I'm counting my lucky stars for having a shy critter...


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## 20074

Tal, I am brand new here & also have Citrobacter freundii. I have been treated with Bactrim & Cipro together many times & still have it. I just learned about rifaximin -is it not available? According to Great Smokies, mine is also sensitive to 2 injectables, which I have not taken.I recently took my father to an infectious disease doctor who was very concerned about my father not taking too many antibiotics & having enough normal flora. He said "If you don't have any normal flora, then no antibiotic will work" I think that has been my problem, since I didn't have any normal flora, then just 2+. I am trying to stay off antibiotics until I have 4+ normal flora, & then try to treat it. But I don't know if I can ever get 4+ normal flora since I have so much Citrobacter.I have more symptoms when I eat fresh fruits &l vegetables & wonder if eating those is making it worse. Any help would be appreciated.Thanks!


> quote:Originally posted by fberry1916:
> 
> 
> 
> quote:Originally posted by Talissa:ng, one more thing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , here's my theory on why even though I've got hyperpermeability, that I haven't been effected by CFS, arthritis, etc(kow!). My main overgrowth is pathogen citrobacter freundii(kp wasn't as overgrown). I read that in the presence even of a compromised mucosal barrier(LGS), the citrobacter likes to stay in the intestines..."doesn't travel"...My bug's a Homebody! I'm counting my lucky stars for having a shy critter...
Click to expand...


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## Talissa

Hi fberry,Thank you so much for joining the discussion! Someone else with this insidiously antibiotic resistant bug...It has grown resistant to Cipro in a ctn % of cases. Will have to look into resitance to Bactrim...I don't have much time right now. I just wanted to say Hi for now...but real quick, what the infectious disease specialist said was very interesting...esp since most IBSr's are low in the beneficial bacteria & when they take antibiotics, the symptoms seem to always return--the only difference is how long it takes...I've got tons of references to C freundii if you're interested.Yes, Rifaximin is available in the US, but I'm an American living abroad. I was in the states over the summer & got an Rx for Rifaximin/Xifaxan, but only for 5 day at 600 mg...the us dose is 1200 mg/day for 10 days...the doc I went to was clueless & since the Rif is only FDA approved for 3 day treatmt of traveller's D, that's the most I could talk him into...plus, it was my first visit to him. I got the feeling he was nervous I was a spotter or something...Ironically, a day late, from your info anyways, I woke up Fri am and decided to take the antibiotic plunge. I began Fri, will be done with the course on Tues. I'm taking Florastor w/ each Rif dose, as well as 2 GSE caps 3 xs/day and regular probiotics hours away from it all. Strict schedule.I went off the fiber starting last night(which is what normally allows me to eat raw fruit & vegeatables w/o D). So far so good. I have to drink alot of water. But other than being dehydrated, I feel pretty good. I'm also following the strange/counterintuitive dietary advice of Dr Pimental in the book "A New IBS Solution."I've done great on a whole foods diet, fberry, cooking the vegetables, until able to eat raw once starting the psyllium...Dr P says fructose feeds the bad bugs. May be why I did so badly after eating HFCS...which is why I went no processed foods abt 7 years ago.Yesterday I began using glucose in place of table sugar. Acc to Dr P, it absorbs into the small intestine early on, thus no residual reaches the bad bugs further down the small intestine, feeding them. He also suggests limiting fruit to 2 a day. That's what I'm trying now...I ate english muffins this am--white flour! I know the antibiotic effect won't last long. I just dream of having normal elimination w/o needing the high doses of psyllium, even if its for a short time. To know its possible would be enough for me.Thx again. If you have anymore info, Please Share!







Tal


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## 15670

Hey Tal, etc.Just stumbled upon this very interresant product (have been searching same that combine proven ingrd for Leaky Gut restoration). Know little about company, other than principal was key member of family-owned Thorne Research until squabbling caused dissolution. Pricey product - and not all that potent (NOW's Quercetin is 400 mg per cap), but interesting ... http://www.antyler.com/detail_full.aspx?id=89


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## Talissa

Cats, you're right--that is an interesting mix of ingredients. I'm leery of anything w/ l-glutamine in it ...but it does back up my taking florastor w/ (soon) the querc/brom.....thx...On another subject, I think I've seriously messed up you guys. Tonight, I'm searching for something definitive that rifaximin is effective ag C freundii, rather than the company studies saying--broad spectrum ag gram-negative & -positive...this is what I find instead(along w/ countless references to the inability of most anti's to kill Cf -and- kp)~"Rifaximin warning: May promote intestinal bacterial overgrowth and cause superinfection; discontinue if diarrhea persists >24-48 h or worsens; seek immediate medical care if fever and/or bloody stools emerge (tablets not effective); not effective for travelers' diarrhea due to suspected pathogens other than E coli..."http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic734.htmI already have a superinfection....grrr...(btw, ng, I got something on how Kp can hide, if you're interested.)And I believe in signs, fberry, if we are open to them(you were my sign, thx ...)I then came across the following (which I've already read b4 and have bookmarked)~"CHAPTER 8 : How can we protect the gut microbial ecosystem?" (Tal: A must read, all chapter summaries! tres interessant as french cats would say...)"...2. Include non-digestible but fermentable carbohydrates (dietary fibre, resistant starch) in the diet which promote bacterial saccharolytic activity and reduce production of toxic/ harmful compounds and which keep the pH in the colonic lumen acidic. This will, in turn, reduce the activity of some harmful activities and precipitate some harmful products...." (Tal: like PSYLLIUM)AND"...7. Avoid the overuse of broad spectrum antibiotics which may suppress the commensal flora and allow pathogens to establish."http://www.microfun.u-psud.fr/microfun/ch8.htmlWhat, I have to learn this over & over? I knew it.I said to my husband tonight, whom I didn't think was listening to me at the time, "I really need to get over having to take fiber." Surprisingly, he says, "you really do..."I'm only going to take the Rif for 3 days(tomorrow last day), the total # of days that it's approved for & the safety of which is fairly verified ...that's my sad tale. I literally have to go, T-


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## Talissa

If I start complaining about taking the psyllium







again, someone pls remind me of this~"Intestinal anti-inflammatory activity of dietary fiber (Plantago ovata seeds) in HLA-B27 transgenic rats.""RESULTS: Dietary fiber supplementation ameliorated the development of colonic inflammation in transgenic rats as evidenced by an improvement of intestinal cytoarchitecture. This effect was associated with a decrease in some of the pro-inflammatory mediators involved in the inflammatory process: nitric oxide, leukotriene B(4), tumor necrosis factor alpha (TNFalpha). The intestinal contents from fiber-treated colitic rats showed a significant higher production of SCFA, butyrate and propionate, than non-treated colitic animals. In vitro studies revealed a synergistic inhibitory effect of butyrate and propionate on TNFalpha production. CONCLUSIONS: Dietary fiber supplementation ameliorated colonic damage in HLA-B27 transgenic rats. This effects was associated with an increased production of SCFA, which can act synergistically in inhibiting the production of pro-inflammatory mediators."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_DocSumAnd just fyi, re: intestinal pH~"UNDERSTANDING pHpH is a measure of the acidity or alkalinity of a solution. The lower the pH the more acidic the solution is. The higher a pH number, the more alkaline the solution is....""Intestinal pH plays a big role in maintaining good health. A slightly acidic pH of about 6.7 to 6.9 should be maintained. An alkaline pH (about 7.0) indicates poor bacterial flora, and a very acid stool (which can occur with excessive amounts of sugar) creates conditions that can cause diarrhea. ""Stool pH â€" A low stool pH signals malabsorption of carbohydrates (sugars and starches)." (low pH = highly acidic...)


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## 15670

Tal - I no understand: How come you're leery of L-Glutamine - it's invariably the first-line supplement recommended for Leaky Gut Syndrome (the renewlife.com product calls for 5,000 mg/day). Also, there are scads of papers supporting hypothesis that Glut increases or otherwise strengthens number and health/activity of intestinal bac like bifido. Unrelated: http://gut.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/55/3/348Also unrelated - oddly old article, but interesting: http://aikidoaus.com.au/dojo/docs/2nd_braina.htm


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## 15670

Something else for Tal ... http://www.health-truth.com/31.php


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## Talissa

> quote:Also, there are scads of papers supporting hypothesis that Glut increases or otherwise strengthens number and health/activity of intestinal bac like bifido.


Well, maybe that's why I can't heal my leaky gut, I don't take l-glut...who knows...I read on mercola some time ago that l-glutamine converts to glutamate in the body & can irritate the intestinal wall in some, similar in structure & function to msg. I react/ed to msg, ergo I stay away from l-glutamine...but I've also read its only harmful at high levels...Loved the first study. FOS's have gotten a bad name....for causing gas. Maybe that's because like with some probiotics, its only at first as the gut re-organizes...The 2nd article....I just hope it doesn't jinx us. Don't ask. There's obviously a connection, but for me, the problem starts in the gut. I do believe doing yoga regularly helps me in this area, as well as breathing...Hope your appointment goes well tomorrow, as you gently educate your MD







Tal


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## Talissa

> quote:Conclusions: FOS supplementation increases faecal bifidobacteria concentrations and modifies mucosal dendritic cell function.


Just popped bk on to point out cats, that this from the 2006 study you referenced above, it flies in the face of Dr Pimentel's advice on fiber...But he seems completely non-interested/uninformed in beneficial bacteria's role in all of this...The cipro info--thx...amazes me they Rx any fluroquinolone antibiotic for anything other than impending death w/o it...& they do. Cipro, Levaquin, huge sellers...


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## 15670

Tal, something here don't make sense to moi. I've only been at this a few weeks, but the only 'credible' info I've read on healing Leaky Gut always features L-Glut. I've now reached the stage at which I'm finally comparing a small number of LGS-healing products. Some protocols even feature nothing but L-Glut.I don't know how you've concluded LGS for yourself (Smokies?) ... and I'm not certain if or when I'll be able to submit to a lab, but I'm confident that: - I've (belatedly) being paying the right attention to my body - and my sorry, sordid past- I've been able to sift through and reject the charlatans and oil salespersons- I've identified worthy, relevant dots that can be connected by logic, if not by evidence- I can develop a reasonable treatment program that I can reasonably expect will do no harm, and may actually prove beneficial, if not conclusiveWhen someone with your depth of understanding and commitment has rejected what I contemplated as a cornerstone of my approach, I'm not only curious ... I'm, how you say in English, nervous.


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## 15670

Takin' a break, Tal - have learned too much and understand too little. This link is but one of ... but does address your contemplated issue:http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag99/sep99-report3.htmlAlso, some suppls brag about their L-Glut also containing PAK (a B-vitamin hybrid) that "offsets" any potential conversion of to glutamate (if such conversion could in fact happen ...). One such suppl if I recall is PureEssentials ...


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## 15670

... design parameters and hypotheses for research study on Glut: http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2431-4-17.pdf


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## 15670

... some break:References (re L-Glut):1. World J Gastroenterol. 2004 Jul 1;10(13):1992-4. Effect of glutamine on change in early postoperative intestinal permeability and its relation to systemic inflammatory response. Quan ZF, Yang C, Li N, Li JS. Research Institute of General Surgery, Jinling Hospital, Medical College of Nanjing University, Nanjing 210002, Jiangsu Province, China. quanzhufu###hotmail.com2. Shock. 2004 May;21(5):433-7. Enteral glutamine but not alanine maintains small bowel barrier function after ischemia/reperfusion injury in rats. Kozar RA, Schultz SG, Bick RJ, Poindexter BJ, DeSoignie R, Moore FA. Department of Surgery, University of Texas--Houston School of Medicine, Houston, Texas 77030, USA. Rosemary.A.Kozar###uth.tmc.edu3. Nutrition. 2001 Sep;17(9):766-8. Glutamine supplementation in cancer patients. Yoshida S, Kaibara A, Ishibashi N, Shirouzu K.Department of Surgery, Kurume University, School of Medicine, Fukuoka, Japan. shogo###med.kurume-u.ac.jp4. J Gastrointest Surg. 1997 Jan;1(1):40-47. Glutamine Stabilizes Intestinal Permeability and Reduces Pancreatic Infection in Acute Experimental Pancreatitis. Foitzik T, Stufler M, Hotz HG, Klinnert J, Wagner J, Warshaw AL, Schulzke JD, Fromm M, Buhr HJ. Departments of Surgery, Universitatsklinikum Benjamin Franklin, Freie Universitat Berlin, Berlin, Germany- BTW Tal, I regularly see recomm that LGS patients avoid soluble fibre (ie psyllium) ... and add insoluble fiber. The former is alleged to exacerbate LG. - But I dunno ...


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## Talissa

> quote:... some break:










Good references...Look I'm not healed, so I can learn too, obviously...altho I do take issue with the psyllium thing--its both soluble & insoluble(3:1)...I'm set on the pysllium. It's been the most effective part of my own pers program that allows me to lead a completely normal life... Don't change my mind again. psyllium=good for me...







If you don't believe me, read last sentence here on post!! I've been doing the right thing! <grin>When I was first learning about all of this, like you, sorting through all the fact vs fiction in alt med, I read the negative about l-glut and tucked up on a shelf as BS...But THANKS to you, the last 15 minutes, I went into pub med...amazing....good(as in remission) for UC(which I feel my prob is closer to than crohns), good for the Th1/2 balance, shown to decr gram-negatives getting through the barrier....by healing the barrier. 2 small studies showed no change in symptoms for crohns but I don't know the dosages used...You must read this...justifying all we've been talking about here~How to naturally heal inc'd intestinal permeability in UCEXCELLENT ADVICEAnd..."*Fiber-- 30 gm a day of mostly soluble fiber. Binds intestinal toxins*. "


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## Talissa

Also on fiber from above source..."Fiber to bind and eliminate intestinal toxins and to feed healthful bacteria. Soluble fiber is best since non-soluble fiber (such as wheat bran) may be irritating to the intestinal lining. Soluble fiber may be found in such foods as apples, pears, legumes, flax seeds, etc. Note: Lack of fiber may result in intense muscle spasms due to the lack of fecal bulk which acts as a physical buffer (Grimes, 1976, abstract)....Supplements--Fiber 30 gms per day from mostly soluble sources. Include Flax. Slows transit time, feeds beneficial bacteria."Yeah!


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## 15670

Good stuff, that - thanks. Am re-posting this link only 'cause it does address the LGlutamine - Glutamate connection that concerned you:http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag99/sep99-report3.htmlKnow what? It's encouraging to realise that, among all these many conflicting references, there is one consistent recommendation: Avoid stress. Can't imagine I'd ever be that stressed if there weren't so damn many conflicting recommendations.


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## 15670

I didn't mean to find this - see these three re L-Glut and le Gut:- Coeffier, M- Fukatsu, K- Kudsk, KAhttp://www.lef.org/protocols/abstracts/abstr-005.htmlNighty night.Don't let the bad bugs bite.


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## Talissa

I'm sold, I swear! The first lef ref above was good to read re: glutamate. Eases the "brain"...less stress...the 2nd, FULL of useful references--you're quite the researcher. Thx. This is fun...having a "research partner". There's actually a small HFS here, and l-glutamine is something they carry normally. I'll see if I can get some tomorrow...& seperate B6 supps.One more thing about psyllium...its a prebiotic..."Prebiotics, defined as nondigestible food ingredients that beneficially affect the host by selectively stimulating the growth or activity of one or a limited number of bacterial species already resident in the colon, can modulate the colonic microbiota by increasing the number of specific bacteria and thus changing the composition of the microbiota. Prebiotics for IBD include lactosucrose, oligofructose, inulin, bran, psyllium, and germinated barley foodstuff (GBF). "http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsumMaybe I'll get you to try psyllium...








Gnight pardner, T-


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## 15670

Not to advise you re LGlut, Tal - but were you thinkin' like moi: - I've concluded 3,000 mg/day is a reasonable target (1,000 Xs 3)- between meals is preferred- ramp up is recommended (ie 250 Xs 3 for 3-4 days ... 500 Xs 3 ... etc)- LGlut can cause constipation - useful indicator that "maximum doseage" tolerable has been exceeded- LGlut can produce same mild "speedy" affect as caffeine (neuro-stimulant)Also, you mentioned picking up B6. The 'PAK' hybrid product occassionally recommended as synergistic with LGlut is described below, in two references - one of which identifies it as offsetting any potential conversion to LGlut. ------------------There is a new glutamine product that may be better tolerated. It is Perque's Endura Guard. www.perque.com phone (800) 525-7372 It is a mixture of glutamine and PAK. (PAK is a mixture of B6 and alpha ketoglutaric acid.) The PAK in this product helps recycle the glutamine. Therefore less glutamine will be needed to achieve therapeutic goals. Also, compared to other glutamine products, there should not be as much build up of the excitotoxic glutamate. ----------------In addition to testing, restoring the body's normal human flora is essential to optimum repair of the intestines. The inflammation in the intestines results in what is termed a leaky gut. The digestive pores for absorption of swollen and allow absorption of items that should not be further burdening the intestines with particles that the white blood cells see as foreign. Glutamine is an amino acid that adds healing to the intestines and when combined with a product called PAK will help the body reuse the amine in the Glutamine so you do not have to take such large amounts of Glutamine. This helps the body heal the intestines.


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## 15670

Tal, you may already know of following - comment?IMMUNEhttp://www.jimmunol.org/cgi/content/full/164/7/3608(In Psoriasis, it's IL-10 that shows elevated).PROBIOTIChttp://www.pureessencelabs.com/pdf/living_flora.pdf(Was it you who mentioned this ...?)B6What dosage will you take with LGLut (Xs/day)?


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## Talissa

How to naturally heal inc'd intestinal permeability in UC I think, cats, that I'm going to go closer to the advice given in the article(reposted) above, and take 2,400 mg 3/day with 500 mg vit C & 50 mg B6. I'd take 3000 x 3 like they suggest, but the caps I got are 800 mg each...I'm all set now. I got my order in with the querc/bromelain, powder p reuteri, and the HFS had the l-glut & B6...along w/ the GSE & florastor(& psyllium







) I should be good to go. As long as I can stick to the schedule....I feel like I'm fighting HIV or something with all these supps!







The article on IL-15 was illuminating. Another proinflammatory cytokine gone bad from the illicit influence of T cells. I sure hope btn the querc/brom/l-glut, we can tame those bad boys, get that inflammation down. I think that's the only way to be able to build the probiotic population back up. Over-simplictic. I also read that once the inflammation is down, we're better able to absorb calcium(which usually accompanies water being reabsorbed.) The absorbed calcium in turn helps the ileocecal valve do its job on a cellular level to keep the darn thing shut, not allowing as much bacteria to back up into the sm intestine during fermentation of carbs....all connected.The 2nd link on Living Flora. Is it brand new? Couldn't find anyone using it on a quick search...I would've liked to have seen some studies done...See ya later, Tal


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## 15221

Hey Folks, well I must say I was hoping the Align would have kicked in by now, had a couple better than average days and over the last three days they have been declining so I am not sure what is going on, baseline is still the same, no other variables present, stuff is doing something but I am not reporting a positive response that could be considered a testimony for anyone else....I was better with just the Bifdo and Reuteri alone so I will try increasing the dose for another few weeks or until the symptoms get too untolerable and if that happens I will just stop it all together.....Their little microbes and my body don't see eye to eye, but then again maybe I am just anti-microbial all together.....more news at 10


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## Talissa

Hey ng, Thx for the update. It's so hard to be patient, isn't it? I know I wanted the florastor to work straight away, but like w/ Align, "they" say to give it a good 3 months...Sounds like you've got a good plan though...Are you taking the bromelain again? Maybe that'll help the align do its job? T-btw, I'll be hangin on the edge of my seat for that 10 o'clock report


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## 15670

Hmmmmmmm.http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlere...gi?artid=547020http://iai.asm.org/cgi/content/full/73/2/912


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## Talissa

Another study pointing to the pro-inflammatory cytokines of IBS~~"Background & Aims: Irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) is a functional disorder with an etiology that has been linked to both psychological stress and infection. The primary aim of this study was to examine the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis in patients with IBS and to relate such response to plasma cytokine profiles...Results: Cortisol and the proinflammatory cytokines interleukin (IL)-6 (together with its soluble receptor) and IL-8 were elevated in all IBS subgroups (diarrhea predominant, constipated, and alternators), although the elevation was most marked in the constipated subgroup. There was no alteration in the anti-inflammatory cytokine IL-10. Conclusions: IBS is characterized by an overactivation of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis and a proinflammatory cytokine increase."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsumGood to know at least in this study, that IL-10 was not decreased in level &/or activity as a couple of other studies have indicated...In my mind, this points to infection more than dysregulation, it's "overactivation". That's a good thing compared to dysregulation...Personal note--all these supps are doing something...very strange looking BMs this am, slight cramping. I'm taking it as a good sign, things are changing, unless it gets worse or lasts for a prolonged time...fingers are crossed!Tal


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## 15670

My humble update:- saw surprisingly empathetic MD yesterday (empathetic, but no more inclined to entertain Leaky Gut musings than before) who had already made referral to Derm re minor, sudden skin rash - just returned from Derm: Psoriasis (exactly what I'd expected)- means "for some reason" autoimmune kicked in (C4's over-activity ... L-10 excess)- Derm scripted cortisone ointment ("may or may not do the job ... permanently or temporarily"), and considered any intervention to address over-active immune "bringing out a cannon to kill a fly"- Bottom Line: Say what you want about allopaths, but they are consistent: _What we'll do here, My Little Patient, is take care of the symptoms, and hope for the best._- Nauturally, I too will now be addressing both Leaky Gut and over-active immune on my own ...


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## 15221

Hey crew, well were all riding this ship of fools and hopefully we can find a little oasis like St. Kitts....anyway CDN welcome to the world of unsympathetic professional medical practitioners.....their not all bad, just certain ones in certain areas....hey if you want to have a tummy tuck and spend some dough you get compassion, if you have a tummy ache you get well its probably your nerves.......next patient please.....if its not trauma or asthetics its a toss up as to your results, my results were a joke and I live in a metropolis with the best DR.s in the world residing within a 100 mile radius....can't imagine if I lived in Lousianna, Tennesee, Kentucky etc... then again I have this theory, the medical gods giveth and taketh away, they cured my strep and sore throats but killed my GI tract.....perhaps if I had only natural good old fashioned cures growing up I would have either died or still would be healthy....catch 22....we are on our own.....plain and simple, thankfully academia has provided us some medical studies and an internet to access them, to at least give us a few clues.....


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## 15670

One observation you make certainly resonates with me, Gutless: In my family, one often hears "when it comes to your health, you're on your own". At the risk of over-personalising musing on this tired theme, the considerable implications of this philosophy struck me on returning from Derm this AM:- I expect to treat my autoimmune with Curcumin, active ingredient in herb Turmeric.- If I purchase Turmeric as a supplement, my chances of buying what the label says are being offered are about 1 in 5 (or whatever the approximate odds - ConsumerLabs' reference is as good a ruler as any).- Alternatively, I can purchase powderised Turmeric - or even raw root, which should be more reliable "unless active ingredients have been compromised due to age and/or improper storage". - So I might be best advised to grow my own Turmeric, provided I'm able to confirm the soil at my cottage "is adequately constituted with appropriate minerals such as selenium and other nutrients essential to growth vitality and expected potency".Geez Louise - on my own indeed ...


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## 15670

hey Tal - just did the canadian math on your LGlut plan ... - While I did see reference to "3000 mg/3 Xs daily", I'm planning on 3,000 mg total PER day.- How you wish, of course, but even at the lesser doseage, gradual ramp-up is recomm to avoid/minimize, uh, unfavourable response from the Bowel Man.


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## 15670

Well, well, well Tal ...http://www.moducare.com/research.asp


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## 15670

Tal,http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=15710900


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## overitnow

Hey CDN,If the cortisone doesn't work, shoot me an e-mail. I have a tea tree cream that may well work. It certainly does on eczema (I know, I know, not the same animal; but still worth a try.)Cheers,Markmsprague2002###yahoo.ca


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## Talissa

cats, Thank you so very much for depresing the h*ll out of me with that last study. Did you read the full text? Do you see the implications? They did this study using human cells, but not -in- humans, so would this alter the reliability of such a study? The study was cited in an article in the Journal of Nutrition. The article's only $8, sooo I'm off to read what they say in "How Are Dietary Signals (Probiotics and Prebiotics) Processed by GI Cells..." Hopefully it won't imply as well that one of the very probiotics I'm currently taking to down-regulate proinflammatory response actually up-regulates it...







Btw, good luck with the psoriasis. You fix the source, all should be well. Unless you can't fix the source becuz you're shooting yourself in the foot due to unknown differences btn man & mice...!Tal


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## Talissa

Okay, the article citing the depressing pro-inflammatory activation of T cells, inducing a Th1 response, by ctn lact. strains, also talks of the anitinflammatory IL10 activation by VSL#3~"VSL#3 (4 lactobacilli, 3 bifidobacteria, and 1streptococcal strains) was a potent inducer of IL-10 by dendritic cells from blood and intestinal tissue, and inhibited generation of Th1 cells. Individual strains within VSL#3 displayed distinct immunomodulatory effects on dendritic cells; the most marked anti-inflammatory effects were produced by bifidobacteria, strains that upregulated IL-10 production by dendritic cells, decreased expression of the costimulatory molecule CD80, and decreased IFN-ï¿¼ production by T cells (7). Probiotic bacteria differ in their immunomodulatory activity and influence polarization of immune responses at the earliest stage of antigen presentation by dendritic cells. "http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/135/12/2914SThe Bifido- strains in VSL are~Bifidobacterium breve Bifidobacterium longum Bifidobacterium infantis The P Reuteri I've been taking is "clinically proven"(which means in humans, in vivo)...as an antibacterial. So maybe it does this by the very action of inciting a proinflammatory response...thinking outloud...however, in mice/rats, its shown to lower inflammation...so maybe for us humans, its imp to take care of ow-grade infection with natural antibacterials like GSE which do the killing themselves, rather than illiciting a Th1 response for infection....da*n. Although I don't get how it put a person w/ UC into remission...So although it's bad news for me CDN, I'm glad to have this info.Unfortunately, the VSL for a one month supply at an effective dose would be abt $300 US, add my customs charges, and it'd be $500 US...and not too many peeps report luck with it...These probiotics...grrrT-


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## 15670

Be not depressed, my child. Lift thine eyes up to the glory of the bunsen burner crowd ...Of course I read it ... and this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...eve&db=pubmed&..[/URL].And I take away the same conflicting conclusions. We is in the same place here, Tal: We both want to correct an autoimmune condition ... that means we both want to reduce or down-regulate the activity level of the T1 helper side (which, in doing so, also necessarily raises the T2 humoric side). In my case (psoriasis), it appears that goal is most likely/effectively achieved by intervention that directly impacts the IL-10 - impact that increases or upregulates the activity level of IL-10. (While the latter point may not be relevant to you, the specific interleukin you hope to impact may represent a second, equally important target for moi: I am intent on treating Leaky Gut as well as Psoriasis). Like you, I'm confused. I'm interpreting these two research studies as concluding that (specific strains of) Lactobacilli intervention have the opposite effect - that Probiotics actually stimulate increased activity of the T1 helper side. We will figure it out. Here's another one - very recent: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...1&dopt=CitationI learned of this one in a Newsletter, which described the research as "reinforcing the connection betwen atopic dermatitis and impaired production of regulatory cytokines (IL-10)". And more: Another pub-med research (can't find it) referred to having identified "a hierarchy between Probiotics" that are effective in re-regulating immune to counter pro-inflammatory conditions. The explanation may be nothing more than diminshed grey-matter capacity: In efforts to reconcile all this info, I was told that this study "may look backwards - but it's not": http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...eve&db=pubmed&..[/URL].We'll figure it out. PS I'm a mere rookie here. Unless lurkers are getting some (entertainment) value out of this focus on whether, if and how Probiotics help correct pro-inflammatory conditions such as IBD/IBS and Psoriasis, should we communicate privately as courtesy?


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## 15670

Found it:http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/73/2/444SThey says here: When the rate of proliferation was compared among cultures containing an identical protein concentration, a hierarchy of immunomodulation between probiotics was shown.


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## 13364

lurk, lurkObviously you guys can communicate privately if you wish. But, without agreeing with everything you say, there's usually more interesting stuff on this thread than any 10 up top. I'm sure I'm not the only denizen of the long grass.


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## overitnow

We have pretty well lost all discussions of the enteric system with the disappearance of eric and his pastepot. With the good Doctor D gone, you would seem to be the last people looking at the intestines as the prime source for the problem. While hypno and calcium are very effective and are well served by their proponents, without our continual drumbanging this site would quickly revert to the pillpushers. There are at least 2 of us out here, and I suspect many more, who are following this discussion, at least peripherally. You would just have to form a mail group and that would remove the discussion from others who have yet to drift into your insidious nets.Play on, buggers.Mark


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## Talissa

Thx for the feedback lurker mekis







And Mark, big <grin> ....This is fascinating stuff, albeit confusing...And I've got 3 private yoga sessions this afternoon, so the gray matter is going to have to rest for now. Will have more time tomorrow to dissect this more...Hey cats, thx for all this research--knowledge is power...but only if you can open the links. Your post above w/ 3 pubmed links? I can't open the first and the last--the second one though was interesting regarding the possible different pathways to explain inconsistencies. See you later, T-


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## 15670

OK lurkers (perhaps I may have an unconscious desire to be stalked ..) Tal: The 'two' Pubmed links you couldn't open were actually the same URL posted twice by me, for emphasis. Re-posting: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=15710900It's important to me that the focus on this issue not be lost or otherwise fragmented. My clumbsy effort to frame it would look like this: Those of us whose delusions have reached a fairly serious level want to know: Are there probiotics (strains) that particularly help or harm in the treatment of bowel disorders thought to involve inflammatory conditions - and/or in the treatment of the autoimmunity considered to underlie the bowel disorders?


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## 15221

Hey Folks, Nice articles on the importance of finding the right mixture of theraputic probiotics and food sources.....For instance I can use all the lactobacillus I can get, but If I eat too much yougurt the protein of the milk will bother my Intestines.....so it is give and take.... also many of these studies point to one thing, the probiotics induce a change, so we myself in this case have been damaging the GI with a dysbiotic state for so long it makes you wonder if the body can recognize the difference between e-coli that belongs in a certain part of your GI tract and e-coli that does not, that was my last stool anlysis....not pathogenic but out of balance...so this is a bit of guess work, trial and error, and error, and error....







Keep up the good work.....


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## Talissa

Hi guys,Came home & went right to it. This is a great direction you've pointed me in cats, a 1000 thx...I'm short on time now, but I just started pubmed'g the probiotic strains in "Jarro-dophilus EPS"--have many references to post later, but bottom line, I only got thru the first 4 strains--all do NOT induce inc'd proinflammatory IL-12, IL-6, etc, and all are anitinflammatory in humans....it's a start...will post the studies soon...I'm just so excited!Btw, if just reading a thread & not posting on it constitutes being a stalker, then I'm in big trouble because I "stalk" more than I talk







Tal


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## Talissa

Ok. Pls disregard the above post...







Craziness. Found contradictory studies...Even for VSL3...This sums it up nicely~Nature Clinical Practice Gastroenterology & Hepatology (2005) 2"Is Bifidobacterium a more effective probiotic therapy than Lactobacillus for patients with irritable bowel syndrome?""This article has no abstract so we have provided the first paragraph of the full text.A probiotic is a live microbial food supplement that provides health benefits by colonisation of the colon and subsequent modulation of immune reactivity. Probiotics have therefore been proposed as therapeutics in diseases with a perceived immune dysregulation, and owing to their oral route of administration, it is thought that they might be particularly efficacious in treating gastrointestinal disease. Many different organisms have been used as probiotics including some yeasts and enterococci. The most common organisms of choice are bifidobacteria and lactobacilli. These are both normal residents of the healthy gastrointestinal tract and have been shown to colonise human colonic mucosal surface directly. Lactobacilli have been used more extensively than bifidobacteria in treatments primarily due to their relative ease of culture and storage. This, however, does not preclude their being the more effective therapeutic organism. In previous probiotic studies with lactobacilli1 carried out in patients with irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), positive therapeutic responses have been limited to only one characteristic IBS symptom and these results have been difficult to replicate. The use of probiotic preparation VSL#3â€"a combination of four lactobacilli and three bifidobacteria speciesâ€"to treat patients with IBS has shown limited results, with improvement found only in the symptom of bloating.1 Furthermore, it has been demonstrated that only the bifidobacterial component of VSL#3 has a significant immunomodulatory effect on human dendritic cells, increasing IL-10 and inhibiting the generation of type 1 T helper lymphocyte (Th1) cells.2 In addition, the different properties of each species of lactobacilli need to be considered, as it has been shown that different species have different potential immunomodulatory capacities that can either be proinflammatory or anti-inflammatory.3, 4 *Combining potentially anti-inflammatory and proinflammatory bacteria in the same preparation would be particularly counterproductive and presents the alarming situation where an ill-chosen probiotic species might exacerbate disease.*http://www.nature.com/ncpgasthep/journal/v...asthep0219.htmlOther than bifidobacteria species, the only other probiotic that is antiinflammatory consistently in studies is S Boulardii.I have wasted ALOT of $$$ the last few years...I cringe...So now, I'll try only taking the Florastor. I'll look for strains with Bif only, maybe break down & order the B infantis/Align to take with the florastor...Who knows.*sigh*T-


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## 21506

Avid lurker here. ditto what mekis said. It's 2:30 am here, and have been trying to catch up on Olympics and the recent posts to this topic the past few days. I have to get up in 4 hours to feed horses in a blizzard, so I've really got to keep this short.I still haven't retyped my regimen since the site gobbled it, but it is still working. (My trouble is PMC- pseudomembranous ulcerative colitis, from C. Dif, caused by Clindamycin for an ancient root canal abscess and cellulitis Sep 2, 2005.)Like some of you others, I also live with an autoimmune disorder; mine is an unidentified one, which presents with fibromyalgia, fatigue and chronic/acute iritis/uveitis. My treatments have even included an injection of cortisone in my eye. I've been tested several times for ankylosing spondylitis, and fortunately, that always comes up negative. I'll take "unknown" over A.S. any day.I read all your posts, though I don't always understand them. I've bagged all other sites- too much time, chat, guesswork, MLM pushers, not enough info. Though many of your posts and most of your links go a-swooshin right over my calcified little cranium, I glean what I can to aid my mainly intuitive approach to my healing.I'm using one of my "voodoo witch mom" teas, (half gallon a day,) Benefiber (guar gum soluble fiber) plus gingerforce capsules and enteric peppermint for relief. GSE drops and tabs, Olive Leaf extract and CO2 extract of wild Oregano oil as antimicrobials by day, to kill the beast. At night, more Benefiber (guar gum), Solaray's Multidophilus 12, Nature's Way Reuteri and Renew Life's IntestiNEW (w/L-Glut, etc) for rebuilding healthy climate while I sleep.I use Heather's IBS site for dietary help. Smashed avocados on rice cakes have been my best friend the past month or two. : )Been sick since October. Until after Christmas, I couldn't eat anything at all without being violently sick. Doc Rx'd Metronidazole, but the symptoms came crashing back 3 weeks after last dose. Have been doing it by intuition ever since New Year's.I am getting better.Getting enough sleep and drinking enough fluids are a big part of the healing, too, so I'm really a bad girl tonight and may pay bigtime tomorrow. I just couldn't let anyone think that their posts might not be important to others. these posts have helped me more than any other single info source, and I especially appreciate your ability to study, interpret and translate here for those of us who are absolutely unable to wade through the professional papers. I come from a medical family, but most of those things are just beyond my ability to reduce them down to info I can comprehend and carry out. Many times a post here would validate a choice I was already implementing, which really boosted my confidence.Not only that, but people may Google this thread sometime in the future, as well, and it may save someone you will never know about.Well, too long. Need sleep.Wellness to you all, and my gratitude, though I'm just sittin on the grassy knoll mosta the time,Carla/harpy=====mekis	Posted 15 February 2006 11:28 AMlurk, lurkObviously you guys can communicate privately if you wish. But, without agreeing with everything you say, there's usually more interesting stuff on this thread than any 10 up top. I'm sure I'm not the only denizen of the long grass. Wave


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## Talissa

Hey Carla, thx for the post, letting us get to "know" you a bit better...Here's something else to make you feel better abt abt a choice you've made(benefiber)~ Nutrition. 2006 Jan Role of partially hydrolyzed guar gum in the treatment of irritable bowel syndrome"Partially hydrolyzed guar gum (PHGG) is a water-soluble, non-gelling fiber that has provided therapeutic benefits. In clinical trials, PHGG decreased symptoms in constipation-predominant and diarrhea-predominant forms of IBS and decreased abdominal pain. Further, an improvement in quality of life was observed in patients with IBS during and after treatment with PHGG. Moreover, PHGG seems to have prebiotic properties because it increases the colonic contents of short-chain fatty acids, Lactobacilli, and Bifidobacteria."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsumBut you -may- want to rethink the reuteri...I sure am...And apparently, to confuse matters even further, one can't lump all bifidobacterium into one category...ctn strains w/i this division are more effective than others at bringing on an IL-10 response, & I've found one strain so far which was found to inc IL12 secretion(b breve)~http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsumThere are also different subtypes of strains...Ie, b infantis has many diff subtypes(differentiated by numbers following the strain type)...this study found a subtype of b infantis inferior at inducing the Th2 response~"Whereas CD83 expression was increased and IL-10 production was induced by Bifidobacterium bifidum, Bifidobacterium longum, and Bifidobacterium pseudocatenulatum, B. infantis failed to produce these effects. We concluded that B. infantis does not trigger the activation of dendritic cells to the degree necessary to initiate an immune response but that B. bifidum, B. longum, and B. pseudocatenulatum induce a Th2-driven immune response. "http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsumThey don't say the subtype so its impossible to know if its the one found in "Align" or not...Source Naturals has a simple, inexpensive product called "bifidyn" which only has B longum & b bifidum. Like with florastor, I can't find any studies which indicate any subtypes of these strains induce a Th1 response(this is GOOD)...so I -may- try that...If anyone wants more info on S Boulardii, I've got a slew of interesting references! (maybe I should do a seperate thread on it here in alt med country...)And btw, Carla, I had a bad reaction to benefiber when I fisrt tried it. It was years ago, but it may have been because I didn't take enough at one time...I'm going to try it again. I love that it doesn't get all thick & disgusting as you drink it...I'd love for it to work for me. Thx for the feedback that it seems to work for you.Any thoughts anyone? ng? cats? lurkers?


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## Talissa

This also backs up our discussions here~World J Gastroenterol 2006 January 7*Changing face of irritable bowel syndrome*http://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/12/1.aspesp..."Most recently, in a group of 78 unselected IBS patients, we demonstrated, in peripheral blood mononuclear cells, an alteration in the ratio between the cytokines IL10 and IL12 which became skewed towards a Th1, pro-inflammatory profile[37]. "Also interesting, "... Psychopathology should be viewed, therefore, not as a fundamental prerequisite for the development of IBS, but, rather, as a co-factor which, _if present_, will modify the individualâ€™s response to IBS symptomatology. IBS patients commonly complain of fatigue and tiredness; these appear to be real entities in IBS, yet have been scarcely acknowledged in the assessment of IBS activity or response to therapy. Urinary and gynecological symptoms are also common; the basis for these associations is less clear. Aware of the prominence of smooth muscle hyper-reactivity in both conditions, parallels have been drawn between IBS and asthma; whether these conditions are linked remains to be defined."


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## 15221

Good work Tallissa, well I wish we could find a more detailed comprehensive report as it pertains to all these different strains and their ability to downregulate or upregulate, it does get confusing as to the different IL-pathways and The Helper cells etc.... I was begining to re-think my L-reutri, and I am wondering overall how much of a help it is....I can say I have been taking for over three months....so I will stop for now and stay with the Lacto and Bifdo, as far as the bifdos being disimiliar in response I am as lost as everyone else.....what strains are good....hopefully the Align was clinically tested.....they seem to be more professional then your average probiotic farmers but time will tell......


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## 15221

*Note from the Moderatorslease do not post whole articles on this website. A) Excessively long posts disrupt the conversational nature of the message board and







It almost always violates the copyright of the author. Your post will be truncated after the abstract. If the links posted do not lead to the entire article please feel free to use the edit button (the folder with eraser that you should see) and include those links in your post.Thanks The Moderator Team*Hey talissa, just when you see one study publish one thing you read another that is not in agreement, somewhere in between there is a story to be told, give this a read try and help me decifer it...I still reading the L-reuteri is beneficial.....TNF a is reduced.... 2 more centswww.biogaia.se/public/documents/ Conf_abstracts_posters/ddw2003.pdf Genotypic and Phenotypic Studies of Murine Intestinal Lactobacilli: Species Differences in Mice with and without Colitis J. A. PeÃ±a,1,2 S. Y. Li,2,3 P. H. Wilson,2,3 S. A. Thibodeau,4 A. J. Szary,5 and J. Versalovic1,2,3* Departments of Molecular Virology & Microbiology,1 Pathology, Baylor College of Medicine,3 Department of Pathology, Texas Children's Hospital, Houston, Texas 77030,2 Department of Pathology, Massachusetts General Hospital, Charlestown, Massachusetts 02129,4 Division of Health Science and Technology, Harvard Medical School, Boston, Massachusetts 021155Received 9 July 2003/ Accepted 7 October 2003 ABSTRACT TopAbstractIntroductionMaterials and MethodsResultsDiscussionReferences Lactobacilli represent components of the commensal mammalian gastrointestinal microbiota and are useful as probiotics, functional foods, and dairy products. This study includes systematic polyphasic analyses of murine intestinal Lactobacillus isolates and correlation of taxonomic findings with data from cytokine production assays. Lactobacilli were recovered from mice with microbiota-dependent colitis (interleukin-10 [IL-10]-deficient C57BL/6 mice) and from mice without colitis (Swiss Webster and inducible nitric oxide synthetase-deficient C57BL/6 mice). Polyphasic analyses were performed to elucidate taxonomic relationships among 88 reference and murine gastrointestinal lactobacilli. Genotypic tests included single-locus analyses (16S ribosomal DNA sequencing and 16S-23S rRNA intergenic spacer region PCR) and genomic DNA profiling (repetitive DNA element-based PCR), and phenotypic analyses encompassed more than 50 tests for carbohydrate utilization, enzyme production, and antimicrobial resistance. From 20 mice without colitis, six Lactobacillus species were recovered; the majority of the mice were colonized with L. reuteri or L. murinus (72% of isolates). In contrast, only, L. johnsonii was isolated from 14 IL-10-deficient mice. Using an in vitro assay, we screened murine isolates for their ability to inhibit tumor necrosis factor alpha (TNF-) secretion by lipopolysaccharide-activated macrophages. Interestingly, a subpopulation of lactobacilli recovered from mice without colitis displayed TNF- inhibitory properties, whereas none of the L. johnsonii isolates from IL-10-deficient mice exhibited this effect. We propose that differences among intestinal Lactobacillus populations in mammals, combined with host genetic susceptibilities, may account partly for variations in host mucosal responses. *[Post truncated by the Moderators]*


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## 15221

Actually after reading it for the second time I see how both of our studies fit together, they do and they don't it all depends on the strain I suppose....so where the heck does that leave us...


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## 15221

Lactobacillus reuteri ATCC 55730 is a probiotic (health-promoting) bacterium widely used as a dietary supplement. This study was designed to examine local colonization of the human gastrointestinal mucosa after dietary supplementation with L. reuteri ATCC 55730 and to determine subsequent immune responses at the colonized sites. In this open clinical investigation, 10 healthy volunteers and 9 volunteers with ileostomy underwent gastroscopy or ileoscopy and biopsy samples were taken from the stomach, duodenum, or ileum before and after supplementation with 4 Ã— 108 CFU of live L. reuteri ATCC 55730 lactobacilli per day for 28 days. Biopsy specimen colonization was analyzed using fluorescence in situ hybridization with a molecular beacon probe, and immune cell populations were determined by immunostaining. Endogenous L. reuteri was detected in the stomach of 1 subject and the duodenum of 3 subjects (out of 10 subjects). After L. reuteri ATCC 55730 supplementation, the stomachs of 8 and the duodenums of all 10 subjects were colonized. Three ileostomy subjects (of six tested) had endogenous L. reuteri at baseline, while all six displayed colonization after L. reuteri supplementation. Gastric mucosal histiocyte numbers were reduced and duodenal B-lymphocyte numbers were increased by L. reuteri ATCC 55730 administration. Furthermore, L. reuteri administration induced a significantly higher amount of CD4-positive T-lymphocytes in the ileal epithelium. Dietary supplementation with the probiotic L. reuteri ATCC 55730 induces significant colonization of the stomach, duodenum, and ileum of healthy humans, and this is associated with significant alterations of the immune response in the gastrointestinal mucosa. These responses may be key components of a mechanism by which L. reuteri ATCC 55730 exerts its well-documented probiotic effects in humans.


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## Talissa

Thx for these studies ng. I'm definitely learning the diff variables to look at when finding these studies...like if the mice/humans were "healthy" (no colitis), or if colitis was present, like in the first study~"_All_ lactobacilli isolated from IL-10-deficient mice _failed to decrease TNF- production_, whereas six Lactobacillus isolates from mice without colitis..."When colitis was present, lactobacilli didn't do its job...The study directly above was done on "healthy" subjects, so it doesn't really apply here then...And then there's the double blind, placebo-controlled 6-month Israeli study on an l reuteri strain that I can no longer ignore~Clin Nutr. 2005 Dec"CONCLUSIONS: IBS symptoms did not improve with probiotic treatment with L. reuteri."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsumMaybe this is why none of us are getting measurably better by using lactobacilli probiotics, we're inadvertently using strains which pump up our already pumped up pro-inflammatory state...It's mind blowing, to me. The earth is round, I was sure it was flat...


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## 13364

speaking only as a lurker, who will not be offended if his views are dismissed:I personally would not place too much emphasis on the mice studies. We are looking for subtle effects here, and there are far too many differences between us and mice as regards gut flora and diet. I would also, as a scientist, be wary of reading too much into one isolated scientific report. Unless you have a good grounding in the subject, it is very easy to take one result, one phrase , out of context. I speak as a pharmacologist, who could spout pages & pages about receptor subtypes, 5HT3 vs 5HT4, neurokinins a speciality, peptides & purines, I am an *expert* (really) on what contracts this bit of gut or that bit of smooth muscle from this animal or that. But I freely admit I know nowt about microbiology, and even my pharmacological background doesn't help. These fields are *so* specialised.If you have a regime which helps you, continue (and report it here).If you have a theory which you are testing via your own kitchen recipe, don't be deflected by a scientific paper which you may not fully comprehend. I can only alleviate the patronising tone of my previous comment by saying that I am also trying out a series of of dietary supplements which, as a scientist, I am told should not affect my particular idiosyncratic gut problem, yet I have nowhere else to go.Whatever you do, do systematically, and report it here honestly, so we can all learn.


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## Talissa

mekis, I agree re: the mice. As I've read before, their digestive systems are basically the same as ours, however for microbial studies, their guts(the ones specifically raised for lab work) are either germ-free or relatively so compared to ours, & we're not ctn yet of all the implications of diff species crosstalk. And while I extrapolated one single sentence from the daunting study of ng's, that doesn't mean its the only one I read. I was thinking more of brevity & clarity...No, this revelation re lacto's came from many, many studies which contradict each other...yet one thing remains constant. Whether mice or man, if there's colitis/inflamed gut wall involved at baseline, most strains of lacto- don't help/don't lower inflammation...I've been taking lactobacteria now for 7 1/2 years. I've still got chronic D. The calprotectin level test showing my inflammation level at 47, with 50 being IBD, was taken after consuming lactobacteria for abt 6 years...I'm doing something wrong. This -may- be it. But absolutely, it's just me, my revelation which could be completely off base..And if someone else's D or C gets cleared up while taking lactobacilli, I'll be in line to hear about it!(as long as the improvement lasts over 3 months, taking the placebo effect out of the picture...)Bottomline, I think there are ctn subtypes of strains which can up-regulate, and ctn strains which can down-regulate, & this knowledge could help us in probiotic treatment. Unfortunately, with the exception of Align, we're often either not told the subtype # or else not provided human clinical studies on the subtype,at least currently in the probiotic market to make an informed choice...I actually have some initials too mek, not as impressive as yours, but I've got a CN & a BS in international business. My most imp initials atm however are IBS--that's what's imp.T-ps...just a very very minor pet peeve of mine, the word "regime", like ###'s, gets used soooo often here, when the word "regimen" would be more apt...I've never corrected anyone on it b4, but since we're pals...and you've got the phd...I just wanted to throw it out there...Yes, I make spelling errors too. But this one really gets me, because the actual meaning of the words are so diff.







Tal


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## 15221

Thanks Mekis, and in my mind I kind of know this too, I wanted to run it by my fellow kitchen shaman.... my younger bro is a molecular biologist and we throw ideas at each other all the time, please feel free to throw anything at us thread bare IBSers we are not offended by your Phd...your comments are well received....Sincerely NG


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## 15221

Talissa, you crack me up, Spelling Nazis and Phds....Hey off with my head too....







Hey your test that you took that measureed your inflammation level what was that all about, and what did they measure exactly...? When I look at that tiny Align pill, and I look at my tiny Bifidus pill, and I look at my relatively flat but compact 23 feet of intestines with muscle and skin on top I say how the heck is that little pill going to do anything....? No wonder it takes three months, now on the other hand we can take that chemical that was engineered by us humans and kill off so much of our guts so effiently in just 10 days... and I say Golly thats some bad ass #### and sign me up for some more....Yippie... The drugs are calling my name.....sorry had to vent....


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## Talissa

I really shouldn't have said anything--spelling nazi!...And ironically, the words can be interchangeable--just me being pissy....It's either me pms'g or its not having my Reuteri today...







Sorry mekis...Here's the lowdown on calprotectin, which was assessed during my CDSA test by great smokies, and I think it's IBS when the level's from 12-50~"The faecal calprotectin and lactoferrin methods are the first wave of techniques that allow non-invasive assessment of specific and selective cellular components of the intestinal inflammatory cascade. At present these are useful for a variety of purposes, outlined above, but it is likely that it will be possible to estimate the participation of other cells. Many other cells of the inflammatory cascade are numerically increased in biopsy specimens from patients with a variety of gastroenterological conditions. "http://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/7/460.aspI know what you mean about taking just one little probiotic tab....I'd take more if I were you. And remind yourself the antibiotics just continue the vicious cycle!!! But da*n, it is tempting...


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## 20074

Tal & everybody,You have certainly made me feel welcome! I have learned so much from you. Several years ago I was on a "Yeast" list, because I had a yeast overgrowth (which I had to diagnose myself after my GI doctor called me a nut). I eventually realized (8 years later)that the reason I could not get over the yeast despite tons of antifungals & probiotics was because my real problem was lack of normal flora -- & yeast was just what overgrew. I felt ok after I diagnosed it & treated it with antifungals , but had to keep treating it because the yeast got in my bladder frequently & that is miserable & hard to treat. Anyway, I realized that the reason I couldn't get the normal flora back despite tons of good bacteria was because I continued to take Prilosec due to heartburn from H. pylori. (Duh--Prilosec decreases acid & normal flora is acidophilus--acid-loving) The reason I got this (lack of normal flora) problem was because I was so mistreated for H. pylori & was treated with flagyl, amoxicillin & Prilosec multiple times. The flagyl killed all my anaerobes in the small intestines & the Prilosec kept me from replenishing my normal flora. But I never could get rid of the H.pylori (because I didn't have any normal flora!) Then I when I got Citrobacter freundii, I found out what real problems were, because now I have diarrhea after eating raw foods & I don't heal as well. (i.e. it took me a year to heal from a shoulder injury). And I have been treated multiple times for the Citrobacter--first with Bactrim, then Cipro, then Cipro, then Bactrim & Cipro, Then Bactrim & Cipro, then Bactrim & Cipro & Phyto-Biotic (berberine complex) & one shot of another antibiotic I can't think of now. Then when the infectious disease dr. told me "if you don't have any normal flora, no antibiotic will work" it all kind of fell into place. When we got sputum specimens from my Dad, he paid more attention to fact that the report said no normal flora, than the sensitivities of the pseudomonas my Dad had. And he didn't recommend treatment! (My Dad aspirated a pill down his lungs, & it damaged his lungs & a pseudomonas infection is now down there --bronchiectasis is what it's called)Then I finally realized why I couldn't get rid of my H.pylori after all those years & antibiotics, or the yeast, or now the Citrobacter freundii. _It's not resistant intestinal pathogens, it's lack of normal flora!_One thing that helped me was to get a Great Smokies test to figure out what my problem is--maybe every year to monitor my response (or lack thereof) to any treatment.I have been taking Custom Probiotics which I learned from the yeast list, but boy is it expensive. From what I have learned here, it doesn't seem to be as well thought of, any advice would be appreciated.I thought the Phyto-Biotic berberine complex was very helpful, & saved it to take with antibiotics, but may take it by itself. The Great Smokies test always says the Citrobacter is sensitive to Cipro & Bactrim, & I take them both in high doses, & get so much better, but then start sliding backward, even while I am still taking the antibiotic. I think that is because I don't have enough normal flora to take up the space that the Citrobacter leaves. I am going to wait until this summer (a year off treatment for this) to get another Great Smokies. I would like to wait until I have 4+ normal flora to try antibiotics again, if I can get that much.I used to make kefir every day (learned from yeast list). There is this guy in Australia who will mail you kefir grains to make your own for $15 with an instruction book ($15 4 years ago-may have gone up). I did that for a long time, but I was taking Prilosec at the time. Anyway, I saved some grains & I am starting to make it again. Here is his email address if anyone is interested: dna###chariot.net.au His name is Dom & he has a great web site, but I don't have the website address. If you are interested, it is probably on his booklet & I can find. Anyway, the grains he sells do grow & make kefir.Another thing I do is eat health food store --has to be refrigerated-- sauerkraut. The kind that hasn't been heated, as that destroys the bacteria that makes the sauerkraut--even tho that gives me D --so I don't know if that helps or not.Also take Garden of Life Primal Defense.So that is my plan:1. Custom Probiotics2. Primal Defense3. Health food store Sauerkraut ??? benefit4. New---starting soon (it takes 2-3 days to activate kefir) kefir5. wait a year off antibiotics then get a Great Smokies test (altho I do get UTI's & have to take some antibiotics) 6. If I don't have 4+ normal flora late this summer, I am considering taking Phyto-Biotic by itself to see if it will kill just enough to make more room for some of the good bacteria.7. Also I eat lots of store bought yogurt, cottage cheese & different kinds of cheese from around the world. I figure all the good bacteria I can introduce the better.I don't have a lot of time, & will not be able to write again for several days. Anyway....I've already told you everything I know


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## 13364

Talissa - wouldn't the feminists prefer "regipersons" ?







But I shall use "regimen" in future, "regime" *does* have negative connotations.You are, if I recall correctly, a qualified nutritionist, and I have as much respect for your experience & knowledge as for anyone who has studied a subject intensively, and is yet still willing to learn.







My point was (intended to be) more about the opacity of microbiology, even to scientists in related fields, and less a claim to omniscience. Unfortunately, I had undergone a _regimen_ of several cans of a different kind of dietary supplement, which clearly influenced my ability to express myself accurately.







Mea culpa.


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## Talissa

Thanks fberry for the detailed report! It sounds like we've all got diff protocols to try out, which is fantastic...all together, maybe we can get closer to 100% once & for all if we keep giving feedback, reports, on our "regipersons"







Hey mekis, You're being way too nice to me...regiperson ! You're an equal op guy, I knew I liked you. No, the last 2 days I've felt really shaky, irritable & I happened to go back to the Mercola article on glutamine...I'm fairly ctn l-glutamine was making me hypoglycemic. Acc to Mercola, it can cause "extreme hypoglycemia"...I think your advice cats on taking l-glut in smaller dosages at first is good advice, but since I could only get it down here in 800 mg caps, I'm going to stop taking it...may try it again in smaller doses some time in the future, maybe...Today, with no l-glut, I'm feeling fine....so fine I just tortured abt 14 people in my yoga & pilates class







They loved every minute of it...This is my revised plan, as far as supps go~--Quercetin & Bromelain (high doses)--Florastor (2 p/day)--GSE --& my usual assortment of vitaminsI'll be ordering Bifido Factor by Natren later today I think...See y'all later, T-


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## 15221

Fberry, Talissa, Mekis and crew....well I thought I would get a little flack from the BB Nazi, I remember a certain someone who used to cut and paste whole threads without ever a mention....disrupting the flow I agree....anyway last two nights had a bit of a night sweat and I awoke at 2 am, kind of congested so maybe its a little cold or something but I am doubling up the align dosage now....Fberry you are living our same situations, killing off or trying to relocate bacteria into locations that they should be in, sort of like putting humpty dumpty back together again...I'm thinking maybe a little GSE too....perhaps you can throw that into your gut coctail too Fberry....and you know I think Talissa has someting going on with Glutamine, never had a problem with it myself, curious Tal what is your blood type...? I am O Positive, I can tolerate meat well, much glutamine in meat already.....I looked at my last stool report and My lab only reported on my Lactoferrin levels, well within the IBD marker 7.3 was the cut off for that, I was at 1.4...they did not check my slgA levels came way up into the normal range where as before I was burned out and producing next to zero....anyway Talissa I understand now that even though you were probably physically in better shape systemically speaking, your GI tract was pretty well beat up.....and seriously on the defensive....that bug you had was a nasty one, flagyl can really mess you up ......I hope the sleep disruptions stop as I am tired, and can only wonder if my immune system is actually reacting to the align, it shouldn't right...? Or is it possible that the Infantis is killing off other bacterias and sending them and their toxins into the body causing a reaction...?


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## Kathleen M.

FYI:Because of the endless complaints about long cut and paste posts the rules were changed about that and people have been suspended for violating that rule.Why is it fair for you to get away with it, when we aren't letting anyone do it anymore? Longer posts can be put in the News section because that really isn't as conversationally driven.Don't base your bad behavior on the way things were before this rule was decided upon and enforcement had to become strict. And please don't get pissy about it when we enforce it evenly rather than just for certain people that some people don't like.K.


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## 15221

I have no axe to grind but obviously someone likes playing the Indians and Cowboys....tinkle ....tinkle


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## Kathleen M.

I think I need a translation







Anywho, "nazi" is almost always inflamatory and doesn't seem to imply "no axe to grind" to me







K.


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## overitnow

Strictly as an observer, this is one thread where I like those cut and pastes. I don't even mind scrolling through them when I don't understand the words. What I especially like is that the same ones are not being recycled. (Eric's were helpful as well when they were informational and not argumentative.) It would be a shame to lose them because of problems that have occurred with people who are obviously leaving this thread alone. Personally, I would like to see it carry on without conflict, as that inevitably leads to "The Moderator Team" locking it up. Someday I would like to go with my wife down to the Carribean and it would be nice if an equally recovered Ms T could accompany us to dinner, without looking at the menu for what we can and cannot eat.MarkBA, English Lit (Retired)


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## Kathleen M.

Mark-- short it doesn't take more than one or two scrolls to bypass cut an pastes like most of this thread are still VERY MUCH ALLOWED. AND MOST of the pasted in info from other places stuff here has not been a violation of the excessively long cut and paste post rule. Most people since that rule started have followed it really pretty well. And thanks to everyone who has been abiding by those guidelines, it really helps a lot when moderating to not have to babysit people and check every post to see if they are trying to avoid following the rules.If you have something very long (and can paste it here without violating someone's copyright) please start a thread on the News section. Paste the longer than 2 or so scroll down document there (about a typewritten page), and link to it. If you would violate the copyright of the author (FWIW, pretty much everything on the web, unless indicated to be freely distributed, is copyrighted and they could go after the board to have them removed, or be repaid for lost income if they can prove that) then copy short parts of the article so your post is about a page long, then add the link to the whole thing so people can go read that if they want to. Usually there is something in the article that is the most relevant to the discussion, so make it easy for others to find that by copying over only that part.I don't see where clicking a link for the multiple page article is really that problematic. (oh and 15 1 page posts in a row count as a 15 page post







)I don't think anyone wants to get into a judging contest of which 5, 10, or more page posts are OK and which are not based on content. It makes it easier to do it by length, otherwise we get into why is that one OK when mine is not issues.K.


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## Talissa

Hi Kathleen!







I'm staying -out- of this one, exc to say that I was relieved K when you didn't get the indians & cowboys reference either...I read it 3 times, thinking I was dense...OMG Mark! That'd be so cool if you guys came down...you'd love it--it's very beautiful, so I hear, I've been here too long







You could come soon though, I eat freely when I go out to eat now, or at home. (you do too?) It's just if I get a big dessert, I'll go 3-4 loose instead 2-3 formed in the am...That'd really be neat. I don't drink, but I can act drunk way too easily. There are some great restaurants too! Of course, you'd have to come to our house for dinner here too, altho no promises on how palate-pleasing you'll find it.







NG, I'm A+. I'm very much highly placed on the fence when it comes to the Eat right for your type diet. However, you could have a point. But just so you're aware, night sweats can be a sign of hypoglycemia...My husband used to get them along w/ other HG symptoms. As someone who has to live w/ the guy, I fixed him up quickly w/ supplements to bring it under control....He's such a nice guy when he's not hypo gly!I digress. If by any chance anyone's interested in this Th1/lacto stuff(where's cats?), I found a product at Natren called "Gastro pH". It is Lactobacillus bulgaricus LB-51...which of course led me to pubmed.I found 2 strains of lactobacteria, which in those with -inflamed- intestinal walls(crohns), were able to decrease tumour necrosis factor alpha(TNF-alpha) & increase the flow of antiinflammatory IL10 : L.bulgaricus and L casei~"RESULTS: Coculture of mucosa with bacteria did not modify LDH release. Release of TNF-alpha by inflamed Crohn's disease mucosa was significantly reduced by coculture with L casei or L bulgaricus; changes induced by L crispatus or E coli were not significant. The effect of L casei and L bulgaricus was not prevented by protease inhibitors. Coculture with L casei and L bulgaricus reduced the number of CD4 cells as well as TNF-alpha expression among intraepithelial lymphocytes from Crohn's disease mucosa. *None of the bacteria induced changes in non-inflamed mucosa*. CONCLUSIONS: Probiotics interact with immunocompetent cells using the mucosal interface and modulate locally the production of proinflammatory cytokines."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum&"In combination studies, L. casei DN-114 001 prevented TNFalpha stimulation by E. coli. L. casei DN-114 001 also reduced IL-8 release via a TNFalpha-independent pathway. L. casei DN-114 056 or E. coli increased IL-10 release in the presence of neutralizing anti-TNFalpha. CONCLUSIONS: Nonpathogenic bacteria interact with human intestinal mucosa and *can induce changes in cytokine production that are strain specific*."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsumThe only co(that I could find) that makes a product with L Casei on its own is a relatively new startup in CA~http://www.probiohealth.com/ph-ke99.htmlBye guys, T-


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## 15670

I haven't abandoned you. I've just been ignoring you. As a self-employed cat, I have the option of shepherding myself into personal bankruptcy should I decide it's more important to spend a few days communicating directly with impeccably-credentialed bacteriologists in an all-out effort to answer that odd question previously posted by some poor, misguided a**hole: _Those of us whose delusions have reached a fairly serious level want to know: Are there probiotics (strains) that particularly help or harm in the treatment of bowel disorders thought to involve inflammatory conditions - and/or in the treatment of the autoimmunity considered to underlie the bowel disorders?_I'm here to report a long answer and a short one. (Also: The quest has been quite discouraging for me personnally. I only signed up here to learn. I signed up for answers. I've mostly learned how difficult it is to learn.) The short answer to the question goes like this: "What conclusion would you _like_ to reach?" Similarly authoritative "research studies" with similar protocols and similar objectives arrive at dissimilar conclusions. Being only similar (ie not identical) is part of the problem (see: sick rats ... healthy mice ... and is it fair to exclude chickens? http://dol.dl.uni-leipzig.de/receive/UBLDi...mcat_01?lang=enOne researcher put it this way: "I can find more than one study supporting whatever probiotic argument you want to make. I can also find a way to question the very same studies - unless, of course, you don't want me to".Sorta like testifying as a Defense Expert ... and then being called by the Prosecution. My take: The study of probiotics is currently quite intense among the White-Coat crowd, and evolving very, very rapidly. (How 'bout one that's genetically engineered specifically to stimulate L-10? http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=13404 In cases featuring bad-bug bowel disorder accompanied by inflammation and resulting autoimmunity ('Bowelers'), the general consensus appears to be that the source of the problem -- the cause of inflammation, other nasties and autoimmune -- is endotoxins: the outer layer of Gram-negative bacteria. (Now bacteria purists seem to prefer that the term be reserved for the better-known pathogens - E.coli; Salmonella; etc). Initially, endotoxins irritate intestinal mucosal ... when the Gram-negative population reaches a small village, they can also migrate through the wall, into the bloodstream. Th1 domiance is the result - and the quasi-permanent condition, until the Gram-negs are controlled. Little point in addressing research findings re how to control the Gram-negs - so many here seem to have their own firm perceptions. But that remedial focus is clearly the key. (Talissa and I discussing the comparative merits of Quercetin vs L-Glutamine is like trying to figure out which shingle tar is better for a house with a fire in the attic: The continuous smoke damage is doing continuous harm {endotoxins}, and the gut-repair kit {Queretin} is academic for as long as the fire is raging {Gram-negs}). What surprised me somewhat is how widely Probiotics are seen as key remedials, vs simply restorative. For Moi Personally: There is a sufficient volume of sufficiently credible research that sufficiently questions the benefits of many/most lactobacilli strains that his Boweler has decided to:1. utilise only Bifidobacteria formulations - of which there are so many - pills and powders: http://www.kirkmanlabs.com/products/probio...ido_081_60.html2. intake consistently via nightime rectal implant only (does my being single make this a challenge or an opportunity???)3. include in the implant prebiotics so the newly-moved in can munch and stay awhile. I'd assembled scads of docs (and comments) convincing me that the notion that a Little Pill(s), enteric-coated or not, can be expected to be adequate for long-standing bug-infested Bowelers with 20+ ft of lining is pure marketing ga-ga catering to instant-gratificaion loyalists (gastric acidity is merely the Pop Culture barrier: How 'bout starting with the likelihood of getting 100% of the label claims ... and how 'bout the Probiotics' virility up against the Bugs' ... and the Probiotics' need for food and TLC to hang around longer than a day or so ...)?(I paid too little attention in this quest to s. boulardi, since I suspect I'm a Boweler with a yeast sensitivity/intolerance, and am selfish by nature. However: Not one of the docs referred to me questioned the efficacy of s. boulardi ... and a couple of them confirmed its reputed remedial functionality and benefits). Now there's this (semi-retired) colonic therapist who apparently used to take appointments for implanting of a Probiotic/prebiotic conconction prepared by him 24 hours in advance. (His 'formula' is neither voo-doo nor secret). He continues to sell a DIY package (the 'Wit Kit') on a poorly-designed web site. I've now spoken to a handful of former Psoriasis sufferers (my particular interest, being the manifestation of my autoimmunity) who quite casually confirmed they were totally cleared by a single appointment with him. I'm told he's a wonderfully positive and helpful guy: http://www.thewholewhey.comI'm done. During these past few days, I was fortunate to have been in touch with a lot of very bright and generous folks. That helped me accept that the "Leaky Gut/Intestinal Permeability" field also includes devotees of MLM with stunning insincerity ... shameless charlatans ... and too many people using three-dollar words as personal weapons. This, then, is the last such project I expect to take on. I hope it's been half as helpful for someone else as it has been for me. (Tal: In one post re helpful/harmful Probiotics, you said "1,000 thanks cats". You then posted that you'd "wasted a lot of $$$s the last few years". Welcome? Sorry?)


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## 15221

Well if that wasn't the cats meow....hey that was funny and informative, and your single too...







Well I have to say you summed up alot of thoughts I have had and well kind of leave me wondering where to go next.....kind of like I am stuck in purgatory, I left hell a year or so ago but the memories are still fresh...I read about others who fed themselves Yogurt funnels, and others who even dare I say it on this PG rated forum....even more radical versions of the healthy bacterial implant...thats way out there though, but when your facing colostomy bag I guess anything is worth trying......so where do you go from here crazy cat....?


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## overitnow

Hm-m-m-m...In my carefree days I once spent time living on rangeland in southern BC, which included drinking groundwater that was contaminated with cow stuff. I know my bowel movements became somewhat softer after that, although not really more frequent or urgent than before. That dates back some 10 years before the onset of D. Could it take ecoli that long to propigate to the point that this would set-in? And then, would the anti-inflamatory properties of the flavonoids be enough to turn this off? and am I still infested?Gad!Mark


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## 21506

> quote:Originally posted by Talissa:And if someone else's D or C gets cleared up while taking lactobacilli, I'll be in line to hear about it!(as long as the improvement lasts over 3 months, taking the placebo effect out of the picture...)T-ps...just a very very minor pet peeve of mine, the word "regime", like ###'s, gets used soooo often here, when the word "regimen" would be more apt...Yes, I make spelling errors too. But this one really gets me, because the actual meaning of the words are so diff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tal


=====Well, I would personally like to thank you for taking on the regimen vs. regime issue, Tal. It's been a huge pet peeve of mine, along with the mispronunciation of nuclear (as New-cue-lar) and a general public failure to be able to negotiate the difference between "there, their and they're" and the difference between the plural "s" and the possessive one. I've even seen the spelling "nucular" lately. When I see "Sofa's on sale," etc., I gnash my teeth. So does hubby.Anyway, it's nice to know we're not the only ones bothered by that, although I'm not generally bothered by mispellings on boards, chalking it up to typos mosta the time.As to the whole probiotic mystery, I think I'll stick with reducing the general bug population with herbal and flavenoid antimicrobials, then toppping off the good bug tank each night with the enteric 13, hoping my body will sort them out and help them set up housekeeping where they belong. As has been stated several times on the boards, the research on probiotics is complex and contradictive, and I can't single out those little guys on my own. I have to work with what is available to me in the health food and naturopath suppliers, relying heavily on what's helped others and mostly on my own visceral intuition, if you'll pardon the pun.I gotta give it a year, anyway, as long as I continue to improve. No more C or D, but still a LOT of pain, esp in the lower bowel. The pain is doubly worse during the premens. and menstrual times when I cramp, and those cramps are much worse, too. Seems like my whole belly just gets oversensitized during that time of the month. I'm pushin 50. Hopefully, menopause will come along and remove some of that.So far, my tea is hugely helpful to my comfort level. On the days I don't make it I'm in a lot more pain. It takes about 20 minutes, start to finish, including washing up the utensils, and makes 64 ounces, which I try to finish each day.How much of it is the soothing effect of the roasted barley, herbs and peppermint oil, and how much of it is simply due to proper hydration when I drink that much, I can't tell you, but I do get immediate relief with each mugful, if I drink it warm.Do you think it would be of any interest to anyone here? I can post the recipe, but don't know if anyone would want to go to that trouble. It looks really complicated, but actually, it's much more simple when you're doing it every day and are used to throwing it together.I don't mind because I feel so much better when I drink it, and it's fairly pleasant, too, with a predominant peppermint flavor, tinged with ginger, molasses and vanilla.I'm a little embarrassed to post stuff like this here, since the rest of you are far more academically advanced, and my simple kitchen stuff (which my kids have for years called voo-doo witch mom) may seem rather backwoodsie and crude. Anyway, I'll do whatever I have to do, within my abilities, to get better.Thanks to you all for your willingness to study and post.Regards,Carla/harpy


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## Talissa

Hey thx Carla, I'm glad it wasn't just me!







I don't think I could get all of the ingredients for your witch's brew, but you should let us know what's in it, it sounds delish...This is interesting from Robin Spiller, a familiar name for most of us who read the latest IBS research--it's his view on the B infantis trial & the IL12/IL10 ratio in IBS~"Post-infectious Irritable Bowel Syndrome"Robin Spiller; Eugene Campbell Curr Opin Gastroenterol. 2006Posted 12/08/2005"... There have been several previous studies in IBS with mixed results, but the most recent one used the same two probiotics, L. salivaris and B. infantis, as McCarthy et al..[30] Only B. infantis was demonstrated to improve composite symptom scores as well as abdominal pain, bloating and distension.[33**] Like previous studies, this showed a small improvement in symptoms but, unlike previous studies, they also demonstrated a mechanism by measuring the release of cytokines by peripheral blood lymphocytes. They showed that at baseline IBS patients had a depressed interleukin-10/interleukin-12 ratio and that the active probiotics normalized this ratio. Since interleukin-12 is recognized to be a key proinflammatory cytokine, while interleukin-10 is anti-inflammatory, this imbalance may be important. "http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/518355_printHey cats, Well, sorry you didn't find whatever you were looking for here. I hope you can come back now & then, keep us updated. The Kirkman probiotics look good. I like that the Bifido Complex is in a base of inulin from chicory root. It seems the studies don't mean much to you, but I found one that said it made a huge diff.(bifidobacteria + chicory) in treating UC patients.I also like their Pro-Culture Gold L. rhamnosus. I wanted, really wanted, to find a study showing L rhamnosus was proinflammatory like L acidophilus & like L reuteri when it encounters inflamed mucosa, but I couldn't. Just the opposite. It -seems- to consistently upregulate antiinflammatory IL10 in many, many studies, and that is regardless of encountering inflamed vs healthy mucosa...The reason I'm excited abt using the quercetin/bromelain is because I want to help the probiotics, fiber, GSE lower inflammation...more ammunition if you will. Not because I believe it can do the job on its own(altho a variation of that seems to have in Mark's case...)Must go now--I'm in a tennis tournament this am(strictly serious amateurs







...wish me luck!T-


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## 13364

Carla - since you mention the regime/regimen thing again - when Talissa originally mentioned the subject I looked up "regime" in my dictionary (Chambers) and it says:"regimen; administration"So "regime" & "regimen" are basically synonyms. I agreed to go along with Tal's "regimen" since she's such a nice, friendly & polite girl & I can be a pedantic bore.







But "regime" ain't wrong!I do agree with you about "proper" writing. BBs & email have made people so lazy & careless & it's (see, I even take the time to use apostrophes !) irritating!!!!! But with role models such as George W "nucular" Bush & Dan "potatoe" Quayle........


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## overitnow

Tal--I hope your regimen of passing shots and drop shots allowed you to establish your tennis regime. In the meantime, Peardrops showed me where at least a couple of people are reselling the Provex CV on eBay, at prices that are slightly lower than what I pay. Obviously, from my experience, I think it would be worth while to track one of these down and give it a shot. We all might be surprised (and it would solve the supply problem).Cheers.Mark


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## Talissa

Hey Mark, thx for the eBay tip--I'll check it out. The tennis regimen played out well, had a blast, & came in fifth in women's, out of 12...good, but not good enough to start my own regime.


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## 15670

Tal,(Had to take a few days break from this ...)Misunderstanding #1- My frustration at having learned less than I'd hope to (via this group) in no way reflects on the site or members (generally). I expressed my frustration poorly: It's been disheartening to discover the inconsistency among research studies - the lack of definitive conclusions re "What Works" is discouraging ... Misunderstanding #2- I understand your decision to Bromelain yourself. I'm with you on the rationale. What I now recognise, however, is it's not unreasonable to believe that, until the source(s) of the endotoxins are eliminated/reduced/managed, interventions like Brome. and Glut could quite easily be of marginal or no value. Misunderstanding #3- The studies do mean something to me. But their value individually is undermined, since collectively they're more contradictory than definitive. It means we have to decide for ourselves what to take, and what to leave behind - which maybe ain't a bad thing ... Gutless- You asked "Where to go from here". This dilettante won't bite - I have no advice. But I will share with you my current perspective.Each of us seems faced with slight variations on the same theme: What strikes us as most likely to be 'effective' treatment, given assessment of various research and informational references, and taking into account as well insight into our own genetics, body (condition and performance) and treatment experiences? My recently-acquired autoimmunity has manifested as psoriasis that, two weeks ago, covered 1% of my body. Today it's 3%. I first need to eliminate or neuter or otherwise manage the Gram-negs (and/or yeast?) that are spewing out the endotoxins ... that are damaging and penetrating the lining ... that is triggering the autoimmune. My program will involve:- a natural anti-Gram/neg (black hulls/wormwood/cloves): phase I- multi-enzyme treatment for possible yeast: phase II- LGlut and/or Brome: phase III- implanted Bifidobacteria family + inulin: continous I - III


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## Talissa

Cats! I'm glad you haven't left us(things are more interesting w/ you around!) & yes, I completely understand #1-#3. If there were definite answers to "what works" universally for all of us, well, we'd all be like those normals we see ev day who've NO IDEA what we're dealing with here...ah...that'd be nice.Although, for me, IBS was a blessing in disguise. I'm actually more fit, healthier, more nutritionally savvy, & more in touch with "who I am" than I was before giardia came along...now there's an unusual look at this, eh?The psoriasis must be unbelievably frustrating for you though. I sure hope you can stop the spread soon. Your program looks sound & effective so I'm sure you will....From Kirkman's, I ordered Bifido Complex & Pro-Culture Gold(if you can find any studies indicating any strain of L rhamnosus isn't antiinflammatory, pls let me know!). I also ordered their seemingly unique enzymes for carbohydrate digestion... It'll be good to get your feedback on bifido-implanting. I personally haven't seen anyone have success that way, but the # of peeps who I've come ax were few...There's a doc in Kansas City(Dr. Mark Allen, GI) who treats C Difficile with great success using a probiotic "broth", which he inserts via a tube through the mouth, all the way down to the sm intestine...This form of implanting is also very interesting, worth considering if all else fails. Apparently, he's pretty reputable & is willing to share his technique with other GIs...Have a good one, T-


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## 15670

Tal,- Do Kirkman make any shipping provisions to keep Bacs chilled?- Curious (cat) about Rham: You read anything that particular recomm it as highly/strongly as the Bifido Family?- Kirk's Carb-Digest: Other than their TM ISOGEST, all ingredients are standard/norm. (Any clue what ISOGEST supposed to be?) You prob know that AMYLASE and carbos ... http://www.enzymeessentials.com/HTML/amylase.html- forgot: I'm also going to take BERBERIS: The act ingred BERBERINE has decent rep re general antimicrobial.


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## 23392

I don't know why it quoted...but does he have any papers out? Is he trying this with any SIBO cases, or IBS in general?Or,  to make whoever kindly respond's life easier, does he have a web site? 


> There's a doc in Kansas City(Dr. Mark Allen, GI) who treats C Difficile with great success using a probiotic "broth", which he inserts via a tube through the mouth, all the way down to the sm intestine...


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## 15670

And Tal - what's happenin' with you and LGlut?


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## Talissa

Hey AO, As soon as I read the posts of Bobbie's over at the C Diff bb, I googled Dr Mark Allen, and it seems he's a low-key guy. I couldn't find a website. I never participate at the c diff bb, but I think Bobbie is the moderator & she seems nice. If you're serious, I'm sure you could ask her for more info~http://www.cdiffsupport.com/phpBB/viewtopi...80dc4a8a66ddf7bhttp://www.cdiffsupport.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=480Hey cats, I think I'm going to stick with getting l-glutamine from food for now. Re: bifdobacteria vs lactobacteria, is it a contest? I believe the point is to find probiotis which upregulate IL10, whichever division, strain, or subtype they might be. The more the merrier to help reduce Th1? Don't you agree the purpose is to take a mix of probiotics which complement each other, rather than counteract--which is conceivably what I've been doing with my probiotic choices? This is how I see it anyways...And it does seem there are a few specific strains of lacto- which are consistent ax the board in many studies for either lowering IL12 or increasing IL10 like most bifidobacteria...From researchers at University of Quebec~ "Lactobacilli are known to promote OR suppress Th1 responses according to the isolates."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum...Got a busy day lined up, so I can't spend much time here. Hope everyone has a good one, Tal


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## Talissa

Hey cats, I forgot to answer your Q about isogest...I've no scientific basis for choosing to try out Kirkman's enzymes, only their marketing I'm afraid. I figure it can't hurt, & it might actually help~"Because Carb Digest contains Isogest,â„¢ it will handle a wider range of carbohydrates including isomaltose and palatinose which no other available enzymes can do. If you have carbohydrate digesting issues, this product may be your answer."This is what made me want to try it out~ http://www.kirkmanlabs.com/publications/enzyme_catalog_2.pdf


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## 15670

Tal,


> quote:I believe the point is to find probiotis which upregulate IL10, whichever division, strain, or subtype they might be. The more the merrier to help reduce Th1? Don't you agree the purpose is to take a mix of probiotics which complement each other, rather than counteract--which is conceivably what I've been doing with my probiotic choices? This is how I see it anyways...


Totally agree - and why I hi-lighted Kirkman. And: I too had always thought Rham was helpful in raising IL-10 ... never read anything yet that suggests otherwise ... but hope there isn't any info suggesting interaction vs Bifido-family and Rham might be counter-effective (to raising IL-10). Sorry LGlut hasn't been agreeing with you. I may carefully give it a go when I reach that stage.


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## 15221

Hey Folks, well CDN I feel your pain....anyway I agree with you that as long as the bacterias that are not comiserant to the hosts own demise we must take action into our own hands....I must say 4 weeks on Align, taking multi doses of bifidum, lacto, stopping the Reuteri, noticed a difference without the Reuteri, not better just different, as can be said of the whole experience so far with Align, suffered through a small bout of D on Sunday, weird stuff, maybe a little flu bug I don't know...One more week with no improvement and I am digging into the Antibiotic Chest, Bactrim redux.... Read some very good stuff on Bifdo species of bacteria.....BInfantis is a good anti-inflammatory but it only colonizes in small quantities once supplementation stops, there are 12 other species that have been discovered probably more even in there that need to be brought into hihger quantities in order for us to have a long last colonization of bifidum....B.Infantis is also good at pushing out the bad guys through secretion of enzymatic chemical processes that don't the othe r bacterias to proliferate at undersirable quantities....I think I need to put a call into Custom Probiotics, or somewhere else...to see if the process of culturing other bifidus strains is difficult....a super bifidus strength probiotic is really needed for those of us with IBS, mainly Large Bowel problems..also read that well cultured Yougurts, Kefir, other formented products can contain the same if not more than the amount of the high priced probiotics we are taking, only problem is if your sensitive to dairy like I am its impossible to eat as much as we need....


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## 15670

Tal,How you figure this Pro product VLS = $hundreds/month?https://shop.sigmatau.com/VSL3/product.asp?...slproduct_qty=2


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## 15221

Whats in that VSL 3...? Chatted with Harry at Custom probiotics, says he doesn't have the 200 Million he needs to start his own probiotic company, so like everybody else he puts an order into the giant Probiotic companies who mix them up....so many of these places probably order from several of the same places, just putting different labels on them....said he knew very little about other bifdo species so if your interested check ut the list seems they are over a thousand, but not all are human bound, but guess what most are very susceptible to common antibiotics....sorry for the spelling I don't have the time for retreads, but I am lucky enough to be allowed to post here....Order as many strains of bifidus as you can find and take much of it as you can, as Harry said the people who see the most improvements on his stuff take his powders formulas, by the grams several times a day...chrons patients UC etc... expensive but maybe worth it if it works........ www.annmicro.unimi.it/full/50/biavati_50_117.pdf


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## 15670

Thanks Gutless (that's some report - more a pillow than research ...)VSL#3Â® is a high-potency probiotic, containing 8 different strains of beneficial bacteria that were specially selected to produce an optimal composition of beneficial bacteria. The 8 special strains of VSL#3Â® are:Bifidobacterium breve Bifidobacterium longum Bifidobacterium infantis Lactobacillus acidophilus Lactobacillus plantarum Lactobacillus paracasei Lactobacillus bulgaricus Streptococcus thermophilus 450 Billion Live Bacteria at Work


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## Talissa

Well, I'm confused. Remember the dichotomy of action btn ctn probiotic strains, & esp in VSL? Remember this~"Lactobacilli have been used more extensively than bifidobacteria in treatments primarily due to their relative ease of culture and storage. This, however, does not preclude their being the more effective therapeutic organism. In previous probiotic studies with lactobacilli1 carried out in patients with irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), positive therapeutic responses have been limited to only one characteristic IBS symptom and these results have been difficult to replicate. The use of probiotic preparation VSL#3â€"a combination of four lactobacilli and three bifidobacteria speciesâ€"to treat patients with IBS has shown limited results, with improvement found only in the symptom of bloating.1 Furthermore, it has been demonstrated that only the bifidobacterial component of VSL#3 has a significant immunomodulatory effect on human dendritic cells, increasing IL-10 and inhibiting the generation of type 1 T helper lymphocyte (Th1) cells.2 In addition, the different properties of each species of lactobacilli need to be considered, as it has been shown that different species have different potential immunomodulatory capacities that can either be proinflammatory or anti-inflammatory.3, 4 Combining potentially anti-inflammatory and proinflammatory bacteria in the same preparation would be particularly counterproductive and presents the alarming situation where an ill-chosen probiotic species might exacerbate disease."...Okay, at http://www.crohns.net/page/C/PROD/Probiotic/VSL3000 its $74 for a box of 20 packets. The effective dose used in the IBD study(& no I'm not going to look it up) is 4 packets a day(at this dose, it took a yr to work, and when the patients stopped it, their remission ended...). The researchers discuss it in the book "gut ecology".One box would last 7.5 days. For a one month supply, that's $296. I have to then pay 60% customs. That's abt $500 a month, & I didn't even incl shipping, which is us abt 80% cost of the product...Btw, cats, this article on Giardia causing deficiencies in B12 & folic acid(folate) may interest you(it sure did me)...Esp since B12 deficiency is reputed to be a poss cause of LGS and defic in folate can cause diarrhea as a symptom...http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/21/2/109


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## Talissa

Oops, on post above, meant to say a box of 30 packets for $74, not 20...


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## Talissa

Hi guys,The following sure makes it look like we're onto something(thx to you cats...)~Neurogastroenterol Motil. 2006 Mar"Advancing knowledge regarding the cellular mechanisms of intestinal inflammation has led to a better understanding of the disease pathology in patients with chronic disorders of the gut including inflammatory bowel disease, coeliac disease, lymphocytic colitis and irritable bowel syndrome. An emerging new paradigm suggests that changes in the homeostasis of bacteria- and host-derived signal transduction at the epithelial cell level may lead to functional and immune disturbances of the intestinal epithelium. It has become clear from numerous studies that *enteric bacteria are a critical component in the development and prevention/treatment of chronic intestinal inflammation.* Signal-specific activation of mitogen-activated protein kinases (MAPK), interferon-regulated factors (IRF) and the transcription factor NF-kappaB through pattern recognition receptor signalling effectively induce inflammatory defence mechanisms. *Unbalanced activation of these innate signalling pathways because of host genetic predispositions and/or the lack of adequate anti-inflammatory feedback mechanisms may turn a physiological response into a pathological situation including failure of bacterial clearance and development of chronic inflammation.* Host-derived regulators from the immune and enteric nerve system crosstalk to the innate signalling network of the intestinal epithelium in order to shape the extent and duration of inflammatory processes."_________________________Well, I usually don't have so much trouble trying new supp's...but guess what? I also react to high dose quercetin & bromelain combo. It makes me go more, through out the day. I had more loo trips for 2 days, & wasn't sure if it was something I ate(uninvited guest) or not. So I went w/o the q/b & now I'm back to normal....But on the plus side, it really helps my DH with his allergies...I may have to take smaller amounts with food instead of high dose on an empty stomach...I also have -bloating- again. It may be because of my reaction to q/b, or its because I stopped the primodophilus reuteri & jarro-dophilus EPS...Will test this out soon. I like a nice flat belly...ALOT. I miss it







The mystery continues, T-


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## 15670

Tal, Re VSL- won't get into this too much, since neither of us has particular interest/confidence in the suitability/effectiveness - but:- had no idea 4 packets/day were reqd/recomm dose ... so now understand your $ estimate- wow: big bucks ... little bangsRe_The following sure makes it look like we're onto something(thx to you cats...)~_Neurogastroenterol Motil. 2006 Mar- I'm pretty sure you're welcome. I generally jump at the opportunity to accept undeserved credit (and reserve my right to do so in this instance), but, uh, what exactly is it that "we're onto"??? (ie I take this doc as further illumination/confirmation of role of untreated enteric bacteria re causing inflamm ... mucosal seepage ... possibly autoimmune. If that's also your take, not sure how I contributed ...). re Rham- You able to answer previous ? (ie W/O citing research, are you satisfied including Rham w Bifido family is, at worst, NOT counter-effective ... and at best, complementary?) I have no opinion - just curious (see handle ...). re Dating- am finding having following doc handy on bed-side table is not as conducive to romance as I was hoping it might be: http://textbookofbacteriology.net/normalflora.html


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## Talissa

Hey cats,Re: VSL...wow: big bucks ... little bangs







That's what I say. But it'd be nice to hear back from Hanna who's trying out VSL plus florastor(which is supposed to help other beneficial bacteria do their thing.) I hope it helps her...Re: undeserved credit...although I'm sure the full text of the abstract goes into more IL12/Th1 cellular detail, the fact that "enteric bacteria"(either pathogenic or beneficial) affect specific pathways(affecting inflammation one way or the other) is intimated here~"...enteric bacteria are a critical component in the development and prevention/treatment of chronic intestinal inflammation. _Signal-specific activation _ of mitogen-activated protein kinases (MAPK), interferon-regulated factors (IRF) and the transcription factor NF-kappaB through pattern recognition receptor signalling effectively induce inflammatory defence mechanisms." Signal-specific probiotics is what I'm talking about and thanking you for. It leads me to believe there is a more precise way of dealing with my own intestinal inflammation....But my mind is open to other possiblities...like its all bs...hoping not tho







Re: rhamnosus. Because I've ordered both the bifido mix and the lactobacteria rhamnosus, and plan on taking them, it is my strong belief that since they both work at suppressing Th1 inflammation, they will work in concert...that is my hope...Re: dating and your bedside bacterial document--you mean that turned somebody OFF? Hard to fathom...If only I were single...







I thought it was terrific.Did you read about the B12 & folate defic from giardia? any thoughts? I know taking folate is recommeded for psoriasis...can't find any definitive connecting threads though as to cause...cul, Tal


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## 15670

Tal, re VLS - can't disagree. They only get my Canadian money if it turns Hanna into Darryl Hannah. Trust you'll lemme know how that's going ...Re Rham - I'm with you - a reasonable supposition, given the complexities and uncertainties from the White Coat crowd. re Giardia - thanks. Unfortunately (as one very reputable scholarly article put it: "There are hundreds of treatments for Psoriasis. Beause there may also be hundreds of causal factors"). One of the more quirky factors is a malfunctioning parathyroid, BTW - causes calcium unbalance as between bones and blood. Anyhoo, I did note that B12 levels were noteworthy (below norms) only in those who had Giardia but were also asymptomatic. Don't know 'bout you, but I was asymp ... probably had Giarida kicking around for 4 or 5 years, maybe longer (drank lake water at cottage). Once I feel I've "completed" my Cat-designed treatment protocol, I hope to be able to have lab work done that will ID the whole range of nutrients. Re Dating - You think it would be better if I printed that doc in colour? Just wondering ...


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## Talissa

Cats, I was anything but asymptomatic, unless I had had it before drinking water from a mountain stream in Idaho...But I've been reading on this, and flagyl/metronidazole can also deplete B12 & folate...The symptoms of deficiency in folate may include one or all of the following:fatigue, weakness, pale complexion, diarrhea, tingling/numbness in hands &/or feet(peripheral neuropathy), paranoia, memory problems, etcI'd think taking a B vitamin complex wouldn't hurt...it's definitely helped w/ my p. neuropathy...Good news for me--bloating is gone. I couldn't wait for my new probiotics to get here, so I added the p. reuteri & JD EPS back into the mix w/ florastor, and the bloating has vanished. <insert happy dance>It's possible that the L rhamnosus in the p reuteri and the bifidobacterium in the EPS are responsible, but who knows...When the new probiotics get here, I'll see if they can also keep the bloating away by stopping the PR & EPS again & take only them...my body, my lab...


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## 14217

Hi,New here, my first post.First of all, I want to say thanks to all the people who have posted on this thread. I have read the entire thing and it has been extremely helpful. I appreciate all of you who have been so willing to share what you have learned. I've been reading this board for about a month now and this is one of the best posts I've seen.I'm a 53 year old female, probably had IBS since teen years. Nine years ago, after a round of Erythromycin (?sp), IBS morphed and became much worse. My primary symptons are distension and headaches and I also have alternating D and mild C. The distension is my biggest thing though, as others have said, I look 7 months pregnant mostly all the time. Also like others, I have tried many things and found no relief. For the past year and a half, I had been doing an energetic treatment for food and environment intolerances. In January, I decided to stop that for a while as it wasn't really helping. I then started doing a lot of research to try to figure out my problems. That's what led me to this board.I decided to post because I wanted to ask Talissa if you would be willing to share what you are doing that led to bloating being gone. What supplements you're taking, any diet modifications (such as elimination of dairy, etc.), anything else that might be helpful. I would really appreciate it.I am definitely in the alt med group! I really want to work this out with supplements or diet, if possible. Thanks again to everybody who has shared on here. You guys are light years ahead of me so I don't think I can add anything but reading all this has really helped.Stokes


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## Talissa

Hey Stokes, Welcome! Another alt medr







I'm glad you joined in, & thx for your kind words about our discussion here.Before I tell you you abt my bloating saga--just have to say what you already know, the usual disclaimer, what worked for me may not work for you, we're all diff...I saw the most drastic reduction in my bloating when I stopped consuming SOY in any form. Other than that, my only real dietary restriction is food additives/preservatives. I eat whole foods as much as possible. I was taking bee propolis which seemed to help. I ran out of it a few months ago... But recently since adding in the Florastor to my probiotic mix, that's when I saw the most amazing difference. I thought I was still a bit puffy in the abs because I teach pilates...if you don't breath correctly during pilates ab work, you can actually build the tranversus abdominus outward. Since I talk throughout the exercises(instructing), I figured I'd done this...But I'm actually extremely thin & firm through the abs--jit was really nice to know. Also since taking the florastor w/ the others, I've been getting tons of compliments from peeps who only come down here this time of year, so they're seeing me compared to last season...This is what I think helps me for bloating~Florastor along w/ either or both Primodophilus Reuteri & Jarro-dophilus EPS. I take the recommended amount of florastor & triple the recommended amt for the other 2...I hope this helps. It feels amazing to actually get rid of that pooch sticking out...Also hope you can stick around, fellow alt!







Tal


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## 15670

Been curious about whether credible testing protocols existed to identify, measure and/or assess "inflammatory" conditions or predispositions - (potentially) affecting any or all body cells ... but particularly addressing intestinal inflammation (ie bowel).I'm unlikely going to address this further, but do intend to keep in mind what little I've discovered, in the event it has some useful application in the future:http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct/gui/show/...A23230?order=27http://www.labtestsonline.org/understandin...s/crp/test.htmlhttp://www.labtestsonline.org.uk/understan...crp/glance.htmlhttp://www.webmd.com/hw/health_guide_atoz/tu6309.aspFor some, there appears a direct connection between elevated CRP and underlying autoimmune (although CRP limited by inability to also identify inflammation source). Might nevertheless be interresant to identify baseline CRP, and levels following whatever interventions.


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## 13364

Talissa & othersAm taking a sabbatical from posting here as I've been discovering some info which has cooled my enthusiasm for this site. Need to research & return later. Good luck !


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## 15670

If you've been discovering info which you think would or could cool _my_ enthusiasm for this site, I sure hope you'll be kind enough to share it.Good wishes.


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## Arnie W

Stokes, it might be worth experimenting with avoiding lactose and other starches for a while to see what happens.Quite a while ago my stomach became embarrassingly large for a guy who works out every day. This was at a time that I was drinking a lot of whey powder and it gradually subsided to more acceptable proportions after I cut out the whey. I re-introduced it recently and noted that my pants were getting uncomfortably tight again, so have had to to do away with the whey, unfortunately. I have low fat levels, but always seem to have a bulge in the belly and I've never been sure whether I always have some sort lof bloating (I have heaps of gas) or whether I just accumulate fat there. I was so proud a couple of years ago, at my advancing age, to be the proud owner of a six pack for the first time ever, but still had that cursed bulge.It was certainly interesting to read that Talissa had problems just by using common supplements.I've started drinking fennel tea, which is meant to be quite helpful.


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## 21506

> quote:Originally posted by Stokes: For the past year and a half, I had been doing an energetic treatment for food and environment intolerances. I am definitely in the alt med group! I really want to work this out with supplements or diet, if possible. You guys are light years ahead of me so I don't think I can add anything but reading all this has really helped.Stokes


Stokes,Welcome! I really feel light years behind most of these guys, too, so I can relate.Were you doing NAET? I've thought about that, becuase it's been extremely helpful to a couple of my kids. My 23 year old is finally free from his lifelong struggle with celiac disease- eats anything he wants to now, for two years. I know it wouldn't get rid of my C. Diff, but thought it might help with the food sensitivities that have developed as a result of the C. Diff. Anyway, just curious.I too am having success with Reuteri and another multi-prebiotic, after a GSE/oregano oil/olive leaf extract cocktail during the day to kill the C. Diff, or at least cut the populations and give the good guys a chance to take over.Also, I think the fennel in my homemade tea helps a lot with the gas and bloating, but so do the dietary guidelines from Heather's .. website. fwiw. Like you, I'm trying to work it out through supps and diet, with adequate liquids and sleep.Anyway, welcome, from one of the quieter, less credentialed folks here. Carla/harpy


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## 21506

Well, Cats and folks, I've been pondering this. I'm trying to balance the skepticism over a capsule of millions to billions of CFUs making it all the way through the tract and successfully colonizing, with the fact that some stupid slacker schmoe at McDonald's forgets to wash his hands after visiting the loo and 12 poor innocents end up in the hospital with raging e. coli infections.Personally, I don't think we're giving the good bugs and our bodies enough credit, so I'm gonna plug away with the supps, but then, if it's not working, there really could be a thousand reasons why it's not working, and I don't know how to figure it all out.Sorry I'm not the brightest bulb in this box, but I really enjoy your posts and the opportunity to ponder.Hope Mekis shares his findings with us.Carla/harpy


> quote:Originally posted by catsdeadnow:I'd assembled scads of docs (and comments) convincing me that the notion that a Little Pill(s), enteric-coated or not, can be expected to be adequate for long-standing bug-infested Bowelers with 20+ ft of lining is pure marketing ga-ga catering to instant-gratificaion loyalists (gastric acidity is merely the Pop Culture barrier: How 'bout starting with the likelihood of getting 100% of the label claims ... and how 'bout the Probiotics' virility up against the Bugs' ... and the Probiotics' need for food and TLC to hang around longer than a day or so ...)?


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## 13364

You guys misunderstand me. I am researching *people*, not treatments. I cannot be more specific without this post being deleted like some of my previous ones. In any case, you guys come up with more ideas than I ever could. I have learnt lots here, antagonised some, but contributed next to nothing. What I *do* know, about people here, I can't say without being deleted. Sounds paranoid, but ain't. Remember, Google is a useful tool.


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## Talissa

mekis, Well yeh, it does sound paranoid...I hope you don't waste that precious mind of yours spending time on something which has little chance of resulting in anything positive or worthy...There's always a trade-off.The tradeoff for me allows me to be able to talk to the great, fun, intelligent people here about ibs issues, compare notes, etc, when truly, away from the pc, its just not possible...For me, it's knowing things like the "Jeffrey Factor" http://www.sickofdoctors.addr.com/articles/lotronex.htm but also knowing big pharma spreads its tentacles everywhere. Sometimes you just have to accept the way things are, & be grateful for the good. Try to do good in spite of it...That's where I am anyways...I hope you can reconcile yours...Hope you come back mekis. You'll be missed. Hope you get better too.Tal


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## 23392

OK, I'm a dope...what's NAET? natural alternative enteric treatment?  And Talissa, can you get this stuff at the standard health food store or does it need to b ordered online?


> quote:This is what I think helps me for bloating~Florastor along w/ either or both Primodophilus Reuteri & Jarro-dophilus EPS. I take the recommended amount of florastor & triple the recommended amt for the other 2...


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## Kathleen M.

See this for NAET http://fp.osteopath.plus.com/holistic-cent...rapies/naet.htmI believe most of the practioners of this fall into the "holistic" or "alt med" end of things. I don't think you really see this done in allopathic medicine allergy clinics.K.


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## overitnow

Tal-The sick of doctors website was very interesting. Thanks for the link.Mark


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## 14217

Hi,Talissa- Thanks so much for your kindness in posting about the bloating.One of the most frustrating things for me is that there is no clear answer, what works for one does not for another. It really is trial and error. I have to admit this about myself- 9 years into it, I have maxed out on the trial and error. Although there is no other choice but to keep trying so I will.I am definitely going to try your protocol. From all the research I've done, that sounds like a reasonable approach for what I've got.I found a web site that seems to have a very comprehensive line. It looks like they ship internationally. The link is:Organic PharmacyI am techno challenged so I hope that link came through.







Arnie- Thanks for your welcome. I am considering the no starch/carbs deal. My problem there is that I am a vegetarian. (I know I have the wrong blood type to be a vegetarian so I am considering putting in for blood type change surgery, what do you think?). Anyway, if I eliminate dairy and carbs, there's not much left to eat. If you have any ideas on what I could eat, I would appreciate it if you would share them.I did start drinking fennel tea. Is that supposed to have an immediate effect? Or is it something that you have to drink for a while before you get the benefits. I've been drinking one cup a day (licorise (sp?) is something I really cannot stand) and it has not helped.Thanks guys, Stokes


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## 14217

NAETNAET stands for Nambudripads Allergy Elimination Technique.It is a holistic/energetic technique. My husband and other people I know think it is totally woo-woo. But, probably like a lot of people on this board, I'll try anything!For me, it did work and helped a lot with food and environmental intolerances. There are a lot of practitioners doing it in the US and I don't know about internationally. If anybody is thinking about trying it, my advice is to be sure to get a practitioner who has had a lot of the training. You can find that out on the NAET site. You can also find a list of practitioners on the site. If anybody is interested, I can post more details about my experience with it.The reason I stopped is because I was "allergic" to everything (literally) that I checked. That made me think that something else must be going on. My recent research has been focused on leaky gut syndrome (another woo-woo deal). I am considering doing the Great Smokies test for leaky gut in the next couple of weeks. If anybody has any thoughts about leaky gut, I would love to hear them!Harpy- Thanks for your words of welcome! Glad to know I'm not the only behind the learning curve. I have looked at the Heather diet and thought about it too. My big issue with it is all the carbs as I could have some kind of carbo malabsorption going on. Still thinking on an eating plan that will work. If you want to know any more about my experience with NAET, please let me know.Stokes


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## 15221

Well Folks guess I should keep you posted, were all just a bunch of Guinea Pigs...







getting tired of it too....anyway Bactrim twice a day started yesterday....stopped probiotics, know need when they are going to killed anyway...but I am taking the Sayccromysis whatever the heck Manose yeast combo again since it is sitting in my fridge so that should help...and I am taking the GSE....Caprylic ACid anything else I can kill of or wipe out any bacteria that is in a place that it should not be...I am thinking about after 10 days....of the stuff, if I live that long, then going all out on Bifdo and whatever else seems like a good dependable host, and of course the host of anti-inflammatory sups, bought some Bromlain, Tumeric, Quercetin, blah, blah, same song different verse....but the one new element I will try if I can handle it is using a probiotic enema after the antibiotics are out of my system.....not much out there on that sort of thing but I did get some pointers from the colonic population....what do you think....?


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## 15221

Oh and I forgot to say I am dreadfully sorry for the spelling and grammer mistakes, I know it peeves some of the crew, but I really don't have time to edit my stuff so deal with it...Dr Dantini also does Allergy testing but looking back it was a waste of money and time, if you have a leaky gut your going to be allergic to everything, but the worst offenders are going to be the foods you eat the most and those which have proteins that your body body deems most damaging....Dr. Adamo has an opinion on this, I don't buy it all but it does have some interesting points, but the whole Lectin Theory is by no means proven however it does warrant a second look he leaves his scientific literature hard to digest for lay persons in the nuances of molecular biology....some people like Lawyers, Doctors, and Uncle Sam like to do that, overwwhelm you with information....poor befuddled masses... sure makes you wonder what their hiding....







off to the great unknown.....


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## Arnie W

Stokes, maybe you could start testing the waters by taking out just dairy for a while. Give the herb teas a decent trial. Fennel made me gassy at first, but I'm getting used to it. I also have licorice tea, which is manufactured with a mixture of other herbs and it's quite yummy. Maybe you could ask some questions on the Gas and Bloating forum.I've been reading about the virtues of NAET on another bulletin board. Yes, it does sound a bit wacky, but I'm doing the QXCI procedure at the moment, and that's probably even more offbeat.


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## Talissa

AO, I don't really know if your standard HFS carries Florastor. I ordered mine from Netriceuticals & got the order in record time, about 4 days. Blew me away...The organic pharm looks like a great site store, Stokes. When I first found it, I thought they'd ship int'l too, and they do--but just to Hawaii, Alaska, U.S. terr's & APO's.







I'm with you on this 100%~


> quote:One of the most frustrating things for me is that there is no clear answer, what works for one does not for another. It really is trial and error. I have to admit this about myself- 9 years into it, I have maxed out on the trial and error. Although there is no other choice but to keep trying so I will.


I don't knowing if being hopeful is a blessing or a curse, but its definitely human......just fyi if anyone's interested, http://www.florastor.com/article.asp?id=1528ng, good luck w/ the current plan of attack. My fingers are crossed! And btw, pls don't take this wrong, but you need to get over the spelling thing. The fact that peeps using the word regime bugs me is MY problem. But we all make typos, we all know it, & I don't think anyone's that concerned about it...T-


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## 21506

Actually, in my area, NAET practitioners come from all disciplines, both alt and allo. MDs, chiros, accupuncturists, naturopaths, etc.I chose this particular practitioner for my kids (a chiropractor) based on the fact that he had trained extensively with Dr. Devi Nambudripad, and follows her protocols to the letter. The people I know who had success with NAET were treated in this manner, whereas the people I know who had less success were treated by practitioners who had developed their own unique versions of the method, and skipped some of the basics.fwiw.I know it seems a bit woo-woo- My grandfather, father and brother are all doctors, and my family is quite skeptical, but it's actually very down-to-earth and sensible once you understand the premise. I'm totally comfortable with it, and owe my 23 yo son's health and freedom from celiac, as well as my 16 yo daughter's life and happiness, to NAET.My family can't argue with that.At this point, I don't think NAET is right for me, since I'm still clearing up the C. Diff and repopulating with probiotics. Too much change for this fairly expensive technique. I'll try it once things settle down.I'm hoping it'll get my hormones balanced and stop my uterine fibroids from growing any further.I am thinking seriously about asking my naturopath about castor oil hot pack treatments, to see if she's had any success with clearing out endotoxins this way.We'll. see.


> quote:Originally posted by Kathleen M, Ph.D.:See this for NAET I believe most of the practioners of this fall into the "holistic" or "alt med" end of things. I don't think you really see this done in allopathic medicine allergy clinics.K.


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## 21506

I was a vegetarian also, much raw food, and that has been one of the biggest frustrations to me. I got all my protein from legumes, nuts & seeds, tofu, and some cheese and eggs from local happy vegetarian hens. I ate tons of fruits and veggies and leafy greens. I had to strike all of the above after the Clindamycin/C. diff/ulcerative colitis set in.After visiting Heather's site and following her emergency dietary recommendations, I got a lot of relief, but became seriously protein deficient. I have had no choice but to start eating a little fish and chicken breast. The fish is nice, but handling and eating chicken is quite distasteful to me at this point. : /I miss my little ziploc baggies of almonds/hazelnuts/pepitas and my lentils, beans and cheese. I miss stir fries. I miss butter and olive oil and salads and tomatoes! I miss muenster and mustard on pumpernickel!!I have recently been getting some relief, and so have been thieving eggs from my horse barn again (bless those happy hens) and scrambling them with rice- no fat- and I seem to handle it ok if I eat a little rice cake or something first.The fennel in my tea helped me right away. I did pass a lot of gas at first, but I think the fennel is doing its job, clearing it out, and that it's not really causing gas, just freeing it up and helping it out. Just a guess. Also, Heather's ideas for small frequent meals might be helping me with that bloaty thing, since it's easier to digest and assimilate foods on a small meal basis. Or seems to be for me, anyway. Oh- and, because I put my GSE in fresh squeezed grapefruit juice b.i.d., I'm getting a lot of digestive enzymes that may be helping with the bloating, too.Fwiw, my MD says just killing off the C. diff causes gas (die-off toxins) then reduces it as a result of the absence of the C. diff. So, I guess the GSE and oregano oil may be helping me with that as much as the tea.Maybe I'm just getting relief because I wasn't suffering for a long time with this- I went after it with guns and knives, as soon as the Flagyl-and my faith in allopathy-failed.Tomorrow I'm switching from Reuteri and Multidophilus 12, to Reuteri and FloraSmart. I think it will be a good change. The woman who founded the RenewLife company was working for a very reputable nutraceutical company, and left to specialize in products and regimens for the GI tract. That's her passion, according to my sources in the industry.I'm also going to start juicing fruits and vegetables again, to see if I can handle small amounts of fresh produce without all the insoluble fiber. There's still a good bit of soluble fiber in juice, so... yeah.Ok. Need sleep. Wonder what Mekis is up to?Can't wait to try carrot juice tomorrow. It's been 4 months since I tasted a fresh fruit or veggie. ('ceptin the grapefruit bitter cocktail!)Carla


> quote:Originally posted by Stokes:I am considering the no starch/carbs deal. My problem there is that I am a vegetarian. (I know I have the wrong blood type to be a vegetarian so I am considering putting in for blood type change surgery, what do you think?). Anyway, if I eliminate dairy and carbs, there's not much left to eat. If you have any ideas on what I could eat, I would appreciate it if you would share them.Stokes


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## 21506

Great advice, Arnie, and so nice and to the point! Wish I could do that!!Cutting out dairy really, really, helped me with gas and bloating, for sure.Stokes, I think for fennel to help, you'd have to do more than drink a cup a day. I make a half gallon of herb tea and drink it all day, but you wouldn't have to go that far, I don't think. I'll bet you could make a smaller batch and just sip it every hour or two.And since Stokes hates licorice flavor, I think fennel would be overpowering by itself, but is easily covered by other soothing herbs, such as peppermint, ginger, catnip and chamomile, so a blend would probably be helpful and tasty,too.Carla


> quote:Originally posted by Arnie W:Stokes, maybe you could start testing the waters by taking out just dairy for a while. Give the herb teas a decent trial. Fennel made me gassy at first, but I'm getting used to it. Maybe you could ask some questions on the Gas and Bloating forum.


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## 21506

Talissa-Thanks for that link. After hearing the discussion, I figured Florastore would be hard to find here in hicksville, but following your link, I found that my own pharmacist, who prepares my Rx natural progesterone transdermal cream, carries Florastore, and he's less than 10 miles from my house!They've got a handy little finder engine on the site. Thanks again!Ng, ditto what Tal said, and Amen. Don't worry about our peeves. Like she said... : )Carla


> quote:Originally posted by Talissa:AO, I don't really know if your standard HFS carries Florastor......just fyi if anyone's interested, http://www.florastor.com/article.asp?id=1528ng...btw, pls don't take this wrong, but you need to get over the spelling thing. The fact that peeps using the word regime bugs me is MY problem. But we all make typos, we all know it, & I don't think anyone's that concerned about it...T-


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## 15670

Harpy,Re Probiotics, can't be more helpful or unhelpful than post already made (and cited by you): Widely believed (and ConsumerLabs confirmed this directly in call with them) that chances are 1 in 5 of buying a/any supplement that actually contains what label promises. 2ndly, all credible researchers (incl independent Probiotic Assoc) acknowledge effectiveness of (enteric) pills re-populating bowels is generally limited (rectal implants or enema far more hopeful). Add the qualitative factors to the quantitative (ie virility of Gram-negative bacteria) and you can conclude for yourself the challenge of getting enough hardy and potent good bugs into the colon by taking a pill from a manufacturer whose industry is totally unregulated ...).BTW: Florastor's Pros are also temporary bowel residents ... not my opinion:_Florastor Extra Strength 250mg capsules (50/bottle) $37.50 with FREE shipping. The active ingredients in Florastor: Saccharomyces boulardii lyo, acts as a temporary flora to protect your intestinal tract and keep your intestines functioning well._


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## cat crazy

> Originally posted by Talissa:Hey cats,Re: VSL...wow: big bucks ... little bangs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I say. But it'd be nice to hear back from Hanna who's trying out VSL plus florastor(which is supposed to help other beneficial bacteria do their thing.) I hope it helps her...Hi Talissa.Just could'nt get around to posting earlier about my trials and tribulation with it. But here it it.In this trial they give a bottle of VSL#3 which lasts 2 weeks and one has to get a new bottle every 2 weeks. Started VSL3 in early Jan/06Started seeing improvement in bloating in about 2 weeks and improvement in the d in about 5 weeks.In mid Feb when I was feeling pretty good not compeltely good and had to pick up a new bottle of this stuff they had run out of it so they gave me a bottle which was close to expiry and the potency was not the same. So during these 2 weeks on this batch I started to get the rumblings of ibs but not on the same scale as b4.As of Feb 22/06 I had to pick up a new batch on which I'm doing good again. By doing good I mean the d is somewhat better and the incomplete evac is somewhat better. Am I healed comletely, no no no. Have my symptoms improved, yes, yes, yes. So it's better than nothing. And also I must say that the VSL#3 did start kicking in better when I combined it with Florastor. (Shhhhhsh, the study coordinator does not know that I'm combining their VSL#3 with Florastor).IBS is like climbing on a very slippery ladder. You climb a few rungs and say ahhh I'm getting somewhere, then bang, you slip a few rungs and start climbing again. Well that's pretty much what we all seem to go through. More thoughts on another post later.


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## cat crazy

Re probiotics. In my opinion they work better when you go off chlorinated water completely. It makes sense because dose'nt chlorine kill bacteria and would it not also kill the good ones?


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## cat crazy

> Originally posted by catsdeadnow: re VLS - can't disagree. They only get my Canadian money if it turns Hanna into Darryl Hannah. Trust you'll lemme know how that's going ...__________________________________________________CDN.Re VSL - if you want to try it there is a study trial being done in the St. Michael's Hospital in downtown Toronto. As per the study coordinator they welcome anyone whose doc has referred them and are actually looking for more volunteers. Ask your doc about it.As for turning into Daryl Hannah I don't think anything will work, but just turning into more of my own Hanna is still okay with me.


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## 15670

Hi Hanna - repeating self on VSL, but for moi, product is too pricey ... and too uncertain re value for inflammatory conditions. I'll eventually integrate exclusively Bifidobacteria, as my why-not option.Thanks


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## Talissa

Thank you so much for the update Hannah. It's good to know you're seeing some good from it, even if its not "the cure". I'd definitely try that out if I lived near Toronto. And by taking it longer, you may see even greater improvements.Taking the KNOWN transient probiotic s boulardii lyo, Florastor, is helping my probiotics along too. I didn't see an improvement in bloating with either jarro-dophilus EPS nor Primodophilus reutieri until taking them along w/ florastor....Customs just called, and my new Bifido complex & L rhamnosus are in--so I'll be testing them out starting tomorrow(w/ florastor)...along with the new enzymes. Some peeps like trying on new clothes...me, I like trying new probiotics! Diff strokes, eh?







...Am having a slow time here with my connection, hopefully this will post...Tal


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## Talissa

Harpy/Carla, That's how I eat now, except with the beef, chicken & fish as well. The fiber really enabled me to do that. Took20years was able to eat like that again after being on GSE for a while(is she still around???)...it'll happen again for you. I'm missing my juicing now too. Ran out of filters, am too lazy to scrape the thing out ev day. But I really miss the carrot, apple, spinach, cucumber combo...so good...Stokes, I did leave out dairy. I don't drink much milk at all, and if I do it's always under a cup. I eat cheese though w/ no problem. And I also didn't mention not eating high sugar--ie, fruit juice, heavy desserts...this probably factors into the flat belly as well...But the only change that I can tell I did was adding in the Florastor. I'm sure it takes the diet & other probiotics to have such a positive effect...And everyone's diff. Our mantra...


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## 14217

Arnie- thanks for your thoughts. I looked up the QXCI, it sounds really interesting. Are you getting any good results from it? Do you go to a person for it or do it at home? I'm going to stick with the fennel tea for a while and see. Maybe the licorice taste will grow on me. Has anybody tried dandelion root tea for bloating/distension? I've seen that mentionned in several places.Harpy- I like your idea of mixing the herbal teas and will definitely try that. Do you just use tea bags and steep several at the same time? I know what you mean about the chicken thing, I am totally that way. I have a really hard time with flesh food in general. But I have given up beans for now because of the gas producing stuff which could be causing a lot of bloating so I have to get protein from somewhere.Excuse my ignorance but what is C diff.? And are you saying that you have not eaten any fruits or vegetables in four months??? That must be challenging to put it mildly!Time for me to stop kidding around with myself and take some action. So I'm going to eliminate wheat, dairy and sugar starting tomorrow. Went to the health food store today and stocked up so I'm ready. I have to say this about myself- I have built up a lot of resentment over the years because I have tried so many things and never gotten any lasting improvement. So need to shift that defeatist/victim mind set and take some positive action.Talissa- sorry about the organic pharmacy deal. Someday when you have nothing else to do







, you could try calling them. I lived in Asheville for a few years and alt med is very big there, people are really into it and so they might be willing to work with you.Stokes


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## 15670

Tal,Re Kirkman: In your experience, is it reasonable (with Pros), to be able to forecast a time-frame by which you could/should/may notice (in)effectiveness? And if so, could you post your perceptions?Thanks!


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## 15670

Tal, I'd done some prelim research into how/when/why LGlut might be effective, given your not-entirely-positive experience.Geez: Just when you think you know something you can believe in ... http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...Citation74/1/25On the udder hand ... http://www.shockjournal.org/pt/re/shock/ab...009&nav=forward


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## Talissa

Hey cats, Why sure I'll let you know my experience w/ kirkman probiotics...altho it may not be a true indication if they don't work for me. The dry ice they came packed in didn't hold up for the long trek south--the probiotics came warm...not good...but maybe not that bad. Read that study showing probiotics can work dead via their DNA...I'll hold that thought, not let myself think I just wasted more $!The l-glut links were interesting. Seems to help those critically ill peeps the most, with IV administration...The Carb Digest enzymes from Kirkman's are pretty interesting. The isomaltase breaks down the isomaltose of Corn Syrup & Starches...the other gets a component of Sugar. Both enzymes are supposedly unique & not found in other commercial enzyme products...we'll see!_______________________________Stokes, C Diff is short for Clostridium Difficile. It's one of many anaerobic bacteria that can cause digestive problems if overgrown. Like others, it's grown resistant to the most frequently used antibiotics. Its infection is very difficult to eradicate & many are left w/ "IBS symptoms" after its been eradicated. Initially, it can appear to be IBS~"Human infection with Clostridium difficile (CD) can take many forms. Those reading this section are probably interested in this topic because they, or perhaps a friend, may be suffering with the more severe effects of CD infection. However, there is a whole spectrum of CD infections ranging from mild forms through to life threatening clinical CD infections (1,14,25,31). These will now be described. CD infection can exist in patients who can be clinically relatively well â€" eg carriers of very mildly pathogenic bacteria. Some may have recurrent mild to moderate diarrhea resembling Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS) and may not be at all concerned with these symptoms. In fact they may consider themselves to be perhaps part of the normal spectrum of bowel behavior. Still others may have recurrent bouts of severe cramps, diarrhea with or without â€˜windâ€™ and other symptoms. Unless CD is diagnosed and causes these symptoms such patients could well be labeled with a diagnosis of IBS. Still other patients may have a condition indistinguishable from colitis, with cramps, diarrhea, urgency, mucus and variable amounts of blood (33). At sigmoidoscopy typical inflammation is seen and may initially be diagnosed as â€˜idiopathicâ€™ colitis(colitis of unknown cause)...Lastly the most severe and even devastating CD infection can develop into â€˜pseudomembranous enterocolitisâ€™ with specific type of inflammation visible at colonoscopy. It may lead to fulminant colitis, megacolon and even to death from colon perforation and peritonitis. However, these latter conditions are generally uncommon (35)."http://www.cdiffsupport.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=124


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## cat crazy

> quote:Originally posted by hanna:Re probiotics. In my opinion they work better when you go off chlorinated water completely. It makes sense because dose'nt chlorine kill bacteria and would it not also kill the good ones?


Clarifiction on my post. Meant to say chlorine water may kill the good bugs too, so it's best to take probiotics with filtered or bottled water, didn't meant to say one should drink unchlorinated water, heavens that would actually give one ibs itself.


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## 15670

Thanks Tal - you know about this Jarrow Formulas product? Bifidus Balanceâ„¢ + FOS Dosage: n/a Size: 100 Capsules Category: Probiotics Product Number: 03010 Product Code: BB Usage: Take 1 to 3 capsules per day with unchilled water, or dissolve in mouth, 20â€“60 minutes after eating. For infants and children, open capsule and pour 1/2 to one capsule onto food. Or, use as directed by your qualified health consultant. Bifidobacteria are anaerobic (live without oxygen) and reside in the lower intestine. Bifidus Balanceâ„¢ +FOS is encapsulated to protect the bacteria from oxygen. Survives stomach acid and implants.* At time of manufacture each capsule contains approximately 2 billion organisms in the following amounts:FOS (FructoOligoSaccharides) 210 mgB. breve R0070 40% 800 MillionB. longum BB536 (morinaga) 40% 800 MillionB. bifidum R0071 15% 300 Million B. infantis R0033 5% 100 MillionTotal 100% 2 Billion


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## Kathleen M.

While I have used Jarrowdophilus forumulations (not that one but other versions) and find they work some people may find the FOS in them can increase gas.In theory, the prebiotics like FOS should only feed the probiotic bacteria, it seems in fact a lot of non-probiotic bacteria eat the FOS just fine. Some people will find the gas increases for a little while until they get populated with enough of the probiotics. But if that brand of probiotics either A) doesn't have probiotic bacteria in it, or they are dead or







for some reason they do not do well in your particular intestinal ecology then some people may find all they get from things with FOS in them is more gas all the time.K.


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## cat crazy

Talissa.Re - natural antibacterials.I'm not sure if I should ask this question as it could sound duh but I will anyway. Oh hey where else can one ask these questions?When taking antibiotics they kill all the bad and the good bugs. When taking natural anti-bacterials, do they kill only the bag bugs and leave the good ones to flourish? How do the natural anti-bacterials work and which bugs do they work on? Which ones are the good bugs? Which ones are the bad ones when they overgrow?I take natural antibacterials myself and find it very helpful. Please understand I am not one bit skeptical about natural a/b but only trying to understand how that mechanism works.


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## 15670

Your point redux, Kathleen:http://www.natren.com/pages/healthyliving/beware.asp


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## Talissa

K & cats, Since first getting "IBS" & treating it w/ probiotics, I've veered away from FOS for the very points mentioned here--which are explained by E G in "Breaking the Vicious Cycle." I'm trying them now, because not using them hasn't done me much good...the fiber which lowers the acidity in my colon & creates butyrate & SCFA's & solid stools, are also supposed to act similar to FOSs...The fiber agrees with me, after an adjustment period...Also studies like these pushed me to the FOS/synbiotic side, just to try anyways~"Effect of regular ingestion of Saccharomyces boulardii plus inulin or Lactobacillus acidophilus LB in children colonized by Helicobacter pylori.""...CONCLUSION: S. boulardii(plus inulin) seems promising as an agent that interferes with Hp in colonized individuals. More studies are needed to confirm these results and to elucidate the mechanisms by which Sb inhibits Hp."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum& "Use of prebiotics for inflammatory bowel disease" "...Prebiotics are among the dietary components used in an attempt to counteract dysbiosis. Such predominantly carbohydrate dietary components exert effects on the luminal environment by physicochemical changes through pH alteration, by production of short chain fatty acids and by selectively promoting putatively 'health-beneficial' bacteria. The present review elaborates on some of the background rationale and mechanisms on the use of prebiotics. Additionally, published animal and human trials are discussed."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_DocSumI've got more, but this is the last one, stick a needle..."... No gastrointestinal symptoms were detected during the prebiotic administration. Prebiotics in a milk formula increase fecal bifidobacteria early after amoxicillin treatment without inducing gastrointestinal symptoms."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsumMy rationale for my recent prebiotic plunge...Side note, one of sugars in FOS/polysaccharides is isomaltose...maybe the new enzymes will help in all of this...


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## Talissa

Hanna,So -not- a 'duh' question that its going to be a more involved reply than I've got time for now. Short answer is while natural antibacterials aren't as strong as Rx antibiotics, its still a good idea to take probiotics as well, just hours away from the anti's...which of course, you already know...The reason some natural anti's claim to kill the bad and not the beneficial bacteria has to do with the pH levels w/i the intestines...I know when I first got this curse of D, taking "paragone" helped me out the most. It brought me down from going 10, 14, 18 xs/day to going 5-7 xs/day...this was abt 7 yrs ago...I was very grateful to say the least.Will have a more meaningful response some time soon, T-


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## Kathleen M.

I've been fine with them when I've taken probitoics with them in them, but I know some people seem to have a lot of trouble with them. I wanted to mention it because we've had people here with lots of issues with the ones with FOS in them. But like I said, they work fine for me.I think it is one of those things that has good points and bad points like most everything else in the world. Nothing is ever 100% good or 100% bad, and it is often hard to know where inbetween the two extremes the truth lies.K.


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## Talissa

> quote:Nothing is ever 100% good or 100% bad, and it is often hard to know where inbetween the two extremes the truth lies.


I don't want to sound too mushy, K, but sometimes your wisdom and ability to articulate your thoughts just blows me away... I'm glad you're here.


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## 21506

Yeah, Cats, I don't have a problem with that- I figure if the transitory S. boulardii helps the other probiotics I'm taking to get a good start, then it will have served its full function and I'll then discontinue it and continue on with the natives.And I still say it can't be any less likely that a pill full of bugs can infect me nicely than that a handful of stray nasties can plague me. as it were. <grin>Besides, I'm definitely continuing to improve, a little better every week. I'm trying to make use of prebiotics with the evening probiotics, too, just to help them get going.Speaking of which... did someone here say using FOS was controversial?Thanks,Carla


> Originally posted by Catsdeadnow:--------------------------BTW: Florastor's Pros are also temporary bowel residents ... not my opinion:Florastor Extra Strength 250mg capsules (50/bottle) $37.50 with FREE shipping. The active ingredients in Florastor: Saccharomyces boulardii lyo, acts as a temporary flora to protect your intestinal tract and keep your intestines functioning well.---------------------------


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## 21506

> quote:Originally posted by hanna:Re probiotics. In my opinion they work better when you go off chlorinated water completely. It makes sense because dose'nt chlorine kill bacteria and would it not also kill the good ones?


Makes sense to me, Hanna... that's why I stopped drinking chlorinated water after realizing that if I was taking my pet rats off it for that reason, maybe I should do the same for me!







I sure don't miss the taste!Carla


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## 21506

> quote:Originally posted by Talissa:Harpy/Carla...But I really miss the carrot, apple, spinach, cucumber combo...so good...


Oh! I've never added cucumber to that blend. I'll have to file that away for future experiments! Thanks, Tal.







My fave is carrots, granny smith apples, pineapple, spinach, ginger, lemon (peel, too)Can't wait to get back to it!Carla


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## 21506

Stokes- Yes, I used tea bags at first, but it was expensive and my local hfs sells hundreds of herbs in bulk, by the ounce, so I guessed at amounts, jiggled a bit, etc. and came up with a bulk blend that I just dump in 1/4 c. for each batch, then pour it through a strainer when done steeping. Down and dirty, and not nearly as much trouble as it seems at first.C. diff is Clostridium difficile, the nasty bug that erupted in my G. I. tract after a course of Clindamycin for a tooth abscess and cellulitis.One of the things I like about this board is that many of the members here have shucked the victim thing and declared all out war on this whole invasion of the good bug snatchers. Carla


> quote:Originally posted by Stokes:Harpy- I like your idea of mixing the herbal teas and will definitely try that. Do you just use tea bags and steep several at the same time?Excuse my ignorance but what is C diff.? And are you saying that you have not eaten any fruits or vegetables in four months??? That must be challenging to put it mildly!Time for me to stop kidding around with myself and take some action.Stokes


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## 21506

> quote:Originally posted by Talissa:Still other patients may have a condition indistinguishable from colitis, with cramps, diarrhea, urgency, mucus and variable amounts of blood (33)..Lastly the most severe and even devastating CD infection can develop into â€˜pseudomembranous enterocolitisâ€™


That would be me. Pseudomembranous enterocolitis was the diagnosis my doctor made after my pharmacist made me call him when it truly seemed like I had just shed my 20 odd feet of intestinal lining... when they say variable amounts of blood... holy cow... those were some scary, awful times, and I've had five kids- two with some pretty impressive hemorrhaging. I'm much less inclined to complain about the pain and bloating now... just trying to resolve it as best I can. <sigh> Btw, I think the fatalities in PMC are mostly among the hospitalized very elderly, with multiple problems and weak immune systems. At least that's what the stats looked like to me. I needed a little reassurance at first, I was so terrified by what was happening to me, and what I was reading.Going for a ride on the silver bullet in May to see how things are improving... oh, la...Carla


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## 21506

Re: FOS- my question has been nicely answered by all. Thanks for the variety and aspects to ponder.Carla


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## 21506

No, only two months... sigh... I started abiding by Heather's recommended emergency diet after my doctor put me on Flagy for the C. diff/PMC and it all came back again afterwards.For two months I pretty much just ate rice, rice chex, japanese rice crackers, etc, until I stopped being so violently sick every time I ate anything. the only fruit I could handle was applesauce and raw apples, peeled. Only veggies were sweet potatoes and carrots, peeled and steamed. I'm now adding potatoes, squash and canned green beans, and doing ok with them, as long as I don't yum them up with any fat. I can eat avocado and raw jicama along with rice, and they don't seem to bother me at all, as long as I really chew everything well. I dip the jicama sticks in fat free zesty italian dressing, and it seems like such a splurge! Joy! <rolling eyes>


> quote:Originally posted by Stokes:And are you saying that you have not eaten any fruits or vegetables in four months??? That must be challenging to put it mildly!Stokes


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## Talissa

Hey Yewtaw gal, sorry to read you were struck by the p. colitis. Scary stuff. But really glad you've got it under control...with that diet, exactly how skinny are you now??







My first year after giardia/flagyl, I became a walking skeleton...If you are a bit on the thin side rt now, I'm proof its only temporary. I'm still a thin person, just not bad enough for peeps to start rumors of anorexia!! But hey, you've got jicama, be glad for simple pleasures... T--------------------------------Hanna, re: natural antibiotics, I thought I'd go into the details of grapefruit seed extract(GSE), since it's the thread's (original) topic.







It has helped me with food sensitivites probably due to not only its antibacterial action, but also anti-inflammatory...Acc to Dr Leo Galland, its safe to take long-term for chronic infections (like what can occur with intestinal inflammation & hyperpermeability)...More direct answers to your Qs~"GSE has been shown to be effective in treating hundreds of different organisms including: Shigella, Staphylococcus, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Giardia lamblia, Diplococcus pneumoniae, Haemophilus influenzae, Mycobacterium species, Campylobacter, Candida albicans, Escherichia coli, Streptococcus, Salmonella, Klebsiella, Proteus, Cholera, Chlamydia trachomatis, Trichomonas vaginalis, Legionella pneumoniae, Helicobacter pylori, Herpes simplex 1, Influenza A2, and measles virus. GSE has been shown to kill both gram-negative and gram-positive strains of bacteria.......In much the same way that synthetic antibiotics can kill off the naturally occurring flora which exists in one's body, so might GSE. Consequently, if this herb is to be used long-term in the treatment of a chronic infection, supplemental acidophilus may need to be taken. *However, while one study found that GSE significantly inhibited E. coli, another normal inhabitant of the GI tract, it left the important and beneficial Bifidobacteria unchanged, and only slightly reduced the Lactobacilli species.*"http://www.diagnose-me.com/treat/T223917.html>>Some sites claim the mechanism of action ag pathogens, but not the beneficial bacteria, is due to its ability to normalize the pH level of the intestinal tract--not too acidic, not too alkaline. The pathogens don't thrive w/ proper pH, whereas the probiotics do...but I can't find any research to support this theory..."..."With the aid of scanning transmission electron microscopy (STEM), the mechanism of GSE's antibacterial activity was revealed. It was evident that GSE disrupts the bacterial membrane and liberates the cytoplasmic contents within 15 minutes after contact even at more dilute concentrations."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum---------------------------------------The mechanism of Berberine is really interesting, though, so it deserves honorable mention here...Berberine "appears to work by staining microbes to be targets for macrophages (large immune cells that 'eat' pathogens) and by preventing microbes from attaching to cells."http://www.ei-resource.org/anti-bacterial.aspThe ABOVE link has exc info on several other natural antibacterials.Tal


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## 15670

http://mmbr.asm.org/cgi/reprint/67/3/429.pdf


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## 15221

Hello GSE Threadsters, Day 6, no improvements on the Bactrim, 4 more to go, then I will resort to a few days of the GSE, and then just full on with the probiotics....just when I thought I was completely confused about probiotics, well thats when I stumbled upon something down under...... http://jds.fass.org/cgi/reprint/83/4/894.pdf#search='do%20yogurt%20cultures%20colonizes%20the%20gut'


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## Talissa

Hey ng, thx for the update. Patience is the key, eh? And thx for the article. That ole problem of keeping added probiotic strains alive in yogurt, w/ the sugar fermentation...but then again, they seemed to present a solution. And the article is from 2000, advances have surely been made...But then again, it may not matter if the strains are "alive". Here's the article from last year, it mentions the problem of adding probiotics to yogurt~*2/2004* - "Probiotics, the bacteria thought to help gut health disorders, allergies and even some forms of cancer, *contain immune system-stimulating DNA, which makes them just as effective when inactivated as when consumed as live microorganisms * in dairy products, say US researchers. The findings, reported in this monthâ€™s Gastroenterology, offer considerable potential for food makers previously restricted to adding bacteria to fermented foods like yoghurt......*The scientists say that the beneficial, anti-inflammatory activities seen with the inactivated probiotics could be the product of the innate immune system, the bodyâ€™s instant response to invasion by pathogens. *"http://www.nutraingredients-usa.com/news-b...biotics-dead-orHere's an amazing commentary on probiotics for IBD published in GUT that touches on the -dead or alive- topic, and is extremely interesting. The authors are anything but novices in re: to probiotics and gut flora~http://gut.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/53/5/620THIS is extremelly interesting from the above. I think it highlights the trap of painting the probiotics immune-modulating effects into black & whites.It may also explain why the P reuteri helped with the bloating in my case(yes, I'm bloating again a bit w/o it







). It's also why I'm going to start taking it again, despite the studies that showed it stimulated proinflammatory IL12...acc to the authors, its a weak influence, while it also INHIBITS dendritic cell activation--which may? be more important..."There has recently been much interest in the function of dendritic cells (DC) in controlling gut immune activity. DC act as the switch that determines the delicate balance between Th1 and Th2 immunity, as well as tolerance (Th3)...Different species of lactobacillus exert different DC activation patterns and the complexity of such interactions is exemplified by demonstration that Lactobacillus reuteri, a poor inducer of IL-12, is capable of inhibiting DC activation by other Lactobacillus species.22 The threshold of bacterial concentration necessary to induce cytokine production may be different for proinflammatory cytokines IL-12/TNF and anti-inflammatory/regulatory cytokine IL-10, permitting fine modulation of the immune response.22"The more we learn....


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## Talissa

OK then, maybe it wasn't stopping the P reuteri that changed the bloating status. It may be I'm adjusting to the new probiotics and its just a temporary thing...OR, it was actually stopping the Jarro Dophilus EPS. There are plenty of good benefits from taking L reuteri, but no studies that I can find include reducing bloating.The probiotics that HAVE been shown to reduce bloating incl~L plantarumB infantisL casei...which are all in the JD EPS...this is confusing...All I know is I took JD EPS for a long time w/o seeing a diff in bloating, only after adding in the Florastor did I see an effect...So, I'm going to just take all of them. I ought to be able to do the triathlon with all these good bugs!!T-


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## cat crazy

Tal.Thank you for your post re natural antibacterials and how they work and the links in that post. Your posts are the most informational and interesting to read. And I appreciate it all.







I will read all the info on the links later, for now just skimmed through it. Chronic shortage of time and energy with me, a side kick of ibs I presume.


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## Talissa

Hi guys, Hope everyone's doing fine & had a good wkd...any more updates? It's too soon for any feedback from me & the bucket of probiotics I'm shoveling down...although I can feel some changes going on...New news on the feacal infusions front from australia--it looks like Dr Borody is taking international calls/emails again...You can read abt it on the C Diff bb...He's also going to be doing a "talk" on using this for crohn's patients in NYC~http://www.cdiffsupport.com/phpBB/viewforu...659e8ac38f55365...I'd be very interested in this if only my DH weren't so incredibly gassy


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## 14139

Talissa,I was wondering how long you have been taking Grapefruit Seed Extract and why you are taking it?Thanks!


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## Talissa

Hey jomo, Wow, I guess you don't want to read this entire thread, eh?







Actually, the first page would probably answer your questions...short answers, I've been taking the grapefruit seed ext capsules since around Christmas. I take them because I'm low on beneficial bacteria which when I had them, they helped keep pathogens at bay. This way I help the probiotics I'm taking out. While I was hoping it'd allow me to stop needing to take fiber, it's helped me with food sensitivites. Can only guess that the indirect/direct? lowering of inflammation has allowed the digestive enzymes to once again be produced and do their thing...Here's a crohn's case where the patient had to take antibiotics for 2 years to rid himself of the CD~ http://www.satevepost.org/issues/2004/0304...t73701034.shtmlHopefully, because my inflammation is less severe then crohn's, the GSE will work long term as well. IMO, it's much safer than antibiotics...I've definitely seen more of a diff using it than other natural anti's.Am REALLY glad I have the GSE now because we haven't had running water in 2 days here now...oy...it's disgusting! Paradise. yeh.Tal


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## Kathleen M.

In case it takes awhile for people to see it, and since a lot of the discussion on this thread is about probiotics, Jeff opened up a new forum to discuss probiotics. http://ibsgroup.org/eve/forums/a/frm/f/252105322It'd be cool to see some good conversations over there.K.


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## Talissa

Thx K. That's a great addition to the bb, along w/ the SIBO forum.


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## 15670

Tal,Since you're now reqd to post info re probiotics somewhere else, would you prefer we exchange our experiences with/reactions to KIRKWOOD privately, offline?


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## Kathleen M.

WOW







I certainly didn't mean you can't keep on talking on this thread.Usually we do try to ask that like topics be grouped together, and the board is set up to encourage that. Sometimes things do get moved to make it easier for people seeking information to find it, but if you want to talk on this thread in this forum and only on this thread in this forum go ahead.K.


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## 14139

Talissa-Sorry about that. I wasn't paying attention when I posted the question. I thought this was the only entry-DUH! But thanks for taking the time to answer me. I will make sure to read the other posts as well.


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## Talissa

Jomo, that explains it! No problem tho. Since you're around, can I ask what you're doing now for your IBS symptoms?? Be a little nosy







Thx, T-Hey cats, Like K said, no need to stop our little talk here. You could PM me if you wanted as well. How're you doing? Also, I was thinking about you & realized that other than the psoriasis & you had battled giardia, I don't know your symptoms! Could you shed some light??? Easier to compare progress, or even see progress that way







Because of all the probiotics I'm taking, I lowered the amt of GSE. I was only taking 1 a day since starting the bifido complex... Not a good idea--my tolerance went way down for eating freely, pretending to be a -real- normal. The last 5 days, I've had "dinners" to go to on 4 of them. Ate like a complete normal(really delish! ate w/o thinking abt additives, had desserts, high fats, total yum, total fun), & found out it just doesn't work w/o the GSE, for now. Loose stools, some gut pain, reminders from the universe to stay humble...take the 3 GSEs...hmmmph.


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## overitnow

Hey T,Glad you enjoyed the dinners. If you are getting like me, and it sounds like you are, the stuff will just move through you and no longer define you; and s-l-o-w-l-y it will be less and less of an issue. I am pretty sure I will never be whole without supplementing; but it's a cost I am prepared to pay to be able to eat anything without consequences.Moving to the country in a couple of months. We have just bought an acre and a half with a new house, cut out of second growth rainforest, all mossy green and smelling so Westcoast. If I disappear from here it will be because I finally have found my place to sit with the Buddah. I never thought things would work out this way. I am so fortunate.Mark


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## 15670

Thanks Tal - I'll be ordering KIRKMAN soon.Re symptoms: Don't you think psoriasis and Giradia is enough? Actually, Giardia's prob gone (I was asymptom. for prob 3 - 4 years). The Psoriasis only appeared in December/05. Steroid cream I've been using has nicely controlled it (= symptom) ... and also given me enormous biceps, while increasing, uh, other muscles. So I've decided to remain Psoriatic ...No - I'll be healing hut (LGlut/Brom) ... and re-balancing Immune (IL-10) ... and then hopefully can induce some MD to measure TH1-TH2s, as well as gut permeability test (both of which I should have arranged for prior to self-treat ... but few/no receptive practitioners). Sounds like you have to keep careful eye on ins and outs ... hope KIRKMAN adds some value.


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## Talissa

Mark, Your new place sounds like my dream. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. Sometimes karma's right on the $! But hey, what's w/ the Zen advice for me to accept where I am, to accept the need of supplements in order to live like a normal...I mean, WHO is the Yoga Teacher here?







lol...You are right of course, my buddha buddy. But I've got the time & the means right now to experiment with this intestinal lab, may as well keep trying, eh? Never know...And it could absolutely be worse-- a life needing supp's is a 100 times better than relying on body crushing drugs...Tal


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## Talissa

OK cats, you've apparently? got no GI symptoms PLUS enhanced muscle mass...making me feel less sorry abt your psoriasis!







kidding, kidding. Am really glad the cream is helping. Very forward thinking on your part, seeing it as a manifestation of Leaky Gut from the nasty wall-sucking giardia bugs.Hope the new probiotics help you too. If you've got no digestive probs though, I don't think we can technically compare notes. It will be good to hear your progress though!Tal


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## 14139

Talissa,At this time I have put everything on hold. I have tried several different things. RX: antispasmodics / anxiety, Natural: fiber, digestive enzymes, peppermint caps, probiotics.Nothing has given me the results I had hoped. My main prob is D-sudden urgent BM's-gas-bloating-gas.Do you think GSE would help? I am pretty desperate.


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## Talissa

Well, jomo, you're the only one that can decide whether or not to try the GSE. If you do, make sure its capsules, not liquid, and you take it w/ meals if you're sensitive. Like trying fiber, probiotics, etc, give it up to a month to see any positive differences. And know that it can cause "die off" reactions at first, as the pathogens die, they release toxins that can cause flu-like symptoms...it doesn't last long. If its severe though, you should cut back on the GSE...Its also a good idea to take probiotics away from the GSE, like first thing in the am & before bed, just like you would if taking antibiotics...No magic bullets here. Unfortunately.Tal


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## 15221

Jomo, Hope you were able to find some ideas from this Website, thing is as you know this thing, IBS can morph into so many different modes of expression of the syndrome, its hard to put out all the fires that creep up.....GSE might help, also try some berberine....many types of natural antimicrobials out there, but like Tal said take it at different times from your probiotics, and you should not give up on them, but try different types till you find one that fits your situation best...whats your diet like, what are you eating...?


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## 15670

Hey Tal - why you no fan of liquid GSE? Just wondering ...


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## Arnie W

I have been lurking for too long. Visiting ever so regularly and taking it all in, evidenced by the containers I have been using of reuteri, gse, berberine, origanox, nitric oxide, etc, which have been recommended. I just don't know if anything at all is working for me. Emotionally I feel great, considering the digestive woes which plague me, but I have to wonder if I'm barking up the wrong tree and that my body maybe doesn't need these particular supplements. But I'll persevere with the gse. I don't get any die-off from it and tolerate the liquid form very well.BTW, I enjoy the contributions here very much. I think it's the most stimulating and informative thread on the board by a long shot.


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## Talissa

cats, Not ag liquid GSE at all, exc for of course the taste--vile! It's just good results have come for others incl'g myself from the capsules, in which the GSE is powdered and mixed w/ glycerin. For someone who has a very sensitive system, or response to supplements is so sensitive, like it sounds to be w/ jomo, more beneficial results are more likely w/ the caps, imo... ----------------------------Arnie, you & your body building...I hope this doesn't make you want to lurk again, I enjoy your posts & input VERY MUCH...I think you're great, you know that, but I've been keeping my mouth zipped about all the mercury (poisoning?) you're giving yourself w/ all that tuna you eat, and now to hear you're taking, -voluntarily- taking, Nitric Oxide...omg...!The flood gates must open







Pls accept this w/ my pure intentions, as a sign that I care about you~"Interestingly, the pathogenesis of IBD has been shown to be related to nitric oxide (NO) released from innate immune cells.* Although NO is known to be highly toxic to the gut epithelia*, there is very little information about the regulation of NO production, One major question in the etiology of IBD is how Th1 cells and pathogens interact in the induction of IBD. In present study, we focused on the regulation of NO. We show that macrophages require both interferon-gamma (IFN-gamma)-mediated and TLR4-mediated signals for *the production of NO, which causes inflammation in the intestine and subsequently IBD*." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum"...Although NO does not seem to play a major role in normal rectal sensation or tone, we provide evidence that NO may be involved in the pathophysiology of visceral hypersensitivity in IBS."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum"...Calprotectin, lactoferrin and nitric oxide are produced and released locally in much greater quantities in the inflamed gut than in the noninflamed gut."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum"...These results suggest that inducible NOS is constitutively expressed in human duodenal enterocytes, is increased in patients with untreated celiac disease, and is partially corrected when such patients are treated."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum" To measure the intracolonic release of *nitric oxide end products (nitrates plus nitrites)* and eicosanoids in response to intraluminal irritation with deoxycholic acid (DCA)... CONCLUSION--The human colonic mucosa responds to bile acid induced irritation by a surge in NO generation via NO synthase."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsumBut at least you're taking the Reuteri~"BACKGROUND: Certain lactobacilli reduce the severity of experimental colitis...Lactobacillus reuteri R2LC reduced the median value of macroscopic ulceration and the protein content of inducible nitric oxide synthase by 50%...CONCLUSIONS: The rat strain Lactobacillus reuteri R2LC, but not the human strain Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG, is of benefit in reducing the severity of acetic acid-induced colitis in rats. These results suggest that it is not the total amount of Lactobacillus but the particular species or strain of Lactobacillus that is important in attenuating experimental colitis."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsumPLEEEEEASE at least _consider_ stopping the NO...







I'm ducking now, pls don't get mad...







Talissa


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## 21506

My success with GSE drops, fwiw... here goes-Sorry I haven't been posting- I have such a hard time keeping up with life & newsgroups, plus since I upgraded my browser, this site doesn't display correctly, and I have to cast around looking for the invisible icons like "reply to this post". Bleah.I've had great improvements over the past 3 months, and can say I'm quite sure I'm getting better, and I'm positive that GSE is an important part of that progress. I'm sorry I tend to be wordy- I'll try to keep it simple.Here's my list to compare with yours: (I've revised now that I'm improving- will post that last. I, too, had the sudden, urgent D, where I got violently sick, dizzy and thought I'd pass out in the loo, along with mucous, blood, gas and bloating and a lot of lower abdominal pain. I couldn't seem to tolerate anything but rice, chicken broth, miso soup and mashed sweet potatoes- no fats, no fiber, no protein, no dairy, no grains, no legumes, greens, fruits or veggies) Here's how I started out, some time in December:Rx: initially, Flagyl, which failed when my C. Diff came raging back 3 weeks after last dose. Also, Xanax, though I'm not taking it anymore. It did seem to help when the pain was really bad. Helped me relax and that probably helped my gut, too.Natural: 3 parts- 1- soothe symptoms, 2- reduce bad bugs, 3- boost good bugs: 1- Soothe symptoms- a homemade tea with roasted barley, chicory, peppermint, fennel, lavender, chamomile, ginger, catnip, red raspberry leaf, molasses, stevia, etc. Taken warm, at regular intervals all day. Also, 1 cap peppermint oil, (enteric coated, from Enzymatic Therapy), 1 cap GingerForce, 1 T. Benefiber. Plus, I followed the emergency dietary guidelines on Heather's .. website. Interestingly, the only raw foods I was able to eat (I had been a Lotsa raw vegetarian, or as my friends called me, a frijoletarian, because of my love for the humble bean!) were peeled apples, avocado smashed on rice cakes, and jicama slices. They made me feel better. I just found out yesterday that jicama is really high in inulin (FOS) Made me laugh. I was feeding my probiotics without even knowing it! Maybe when you eat it (inulin) in raw foods, the naturally present enzymes help prevent the bloating effect? Just guessing... 2- Reduce bad bugs- GSE & herbs 3 x day: (8 am, 1 pm, 6p)GSE cocktail (50 drops in 4 oz fresh squeezed grapefruit juice)with 1 liquicap Oregano, (wild ecocrafted CO2 extract, from Gaia), 1 liquicap Olive Leaf extract, Gaia and 1 tablet GSE. I can't take the GSE capsules, because they contain echinacea which stimulates the inflammation from my autoimmune disorder) I actually started with just the plain tablets of GSE, but they simply didn't work as well as using the drops, and when I put the drops in fresh grapefruit juice with a couple drops of vanilla or orange flavored stevia they not only didn't taste vile, they tasted kind of nice. I started looking forward to it. Go figure. In anything else, it's so nasty I can't even get it down. Some kinda magic grapefruit mojo brain trick, I guess. I juiced the 3 servings of grapefruit in the morning, added all the GSE & stevia, and put it in the frig, so it was easier to keep up the regimen. I think the triple combination of GSE, oregano and olive leaf really got at the C. Diff, and I had three distinct sessions of die-off that made me really sick and flu-ish, but passed after 48 hours, and I was definitely better after each one. 3- Boost good bugs- (10 pm) I was taking Solaray's Multidophilus 12, an enteric probiotic blend, plus enteric Reuteri, plus Benefiber. I later switched to RenewLife's FloraSmart, Nature's way Reuteri, Solaray's NutraFlora FOS and Benefiber. I was only bothered by inulins and other FOS if I took a lot at once. I started benefiber at just 1 t., t.i.d., and worked up to 1 T. I take the probiotics at night, after the GSE/herbs have had all day to reduce the general bug populations. That way, I think I reduce the overall bugs, then boost the good ones. 4- Support- REnewLife's IntestiNew, to help the intestinal lining, plus digestive enzymes, because I had to quit all the raw fruits and veggies, and lots of timed-release Stress formula B vitamins, 'cause I figure I'm burning them like a furnace. Still following Heather's IBS dietary guidlelines, though I've cheated a few times lately, with only mild morning D to pay for it!Now:I'm down to taking the GSE once a day, in the morning. I stopped the olive leaf extract 2 weeks ago, and the oregano a week ago. Still doing the homemade tea, about 1 qt. a day. My body is *really* happy about reintroducing fresh carrot juice, and I seem to digest things better on days when I have 2 or 3 small glasses. I'm going to add apple, celery, ginger and lemon real soon. I have a good juicer that's easy to clean (2 min rinse-up) so I don't mind juicing at all, though I juice enough carrots in the morning to last the day. I'm beginning to wish I had started the carrot juice a lot earlier in this process. I feel stupid that I didn't think of it- getting rid of most of the undigestable fiber in the juicing process would probably have meant I could have tolerated it before now. I'm going to eat more jicama, too, now that I know why it's felt good to me. I've desperately needed the fresh, raw F&V, and am so relieved to be able to bring them back, little by little.I'm still keeping Heather's 10 Commandments for IBS, and that seems to save me from disaster. Like Talissa, I had dinner out a couple of times in the past week- charity fundraisers, and I just couldn't help myself, I felt so starved for good "real" food. I ate my little rice cakes in the car beforehand, and was careful about the order and portions, no-nos, etc. (no butter or greens the first dinner, but having a tomato slice and small ball of mozarella from my salad at the very end of the meal at the second event. I survived! Hooray!Anyway, I don't mind being Zen about things, to a certain extent, but that doesn't mean that I'm not working and planning on living a "normal" eating/digesting life someday.And for what it's worth- the info from this thread and Heather's .. site have helped me more than all the other Googling combined.Carla


> quote:Originally posted by jomo569:Talissa,At this time I have put everything on hold. I have tried several different things. RX: antispasmodics / anxiety, Natural: fiber, digestive enzymes, peppermint caps, probiotics.Nothing has given me the results I had hoped. My main prob is D-sudden urgent BM's-gas-bloating-gas.Do you think GSE would help? I am pretty desperate.


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## 15670

Interesting, Carla - could you pls explain what you mean by echinacea stimulating the inflammation of your autoimmune?(I have Psoriasis, which is an autoimmune disorder, and had tested postive for Giardia).Also: Are you aware of any research that connects echinacea with inflammation ... or echinacea with autoimmune?Thanks.


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## 21506

Well, Tal, I hate to admit it here, but I was actually about 30 pounds overweight when I got this stuff, though I was too sick to eat at Thanksgiving and Christmas (just this week looked at the contents of my Christmas stocking!) so I didn't get any worse.Because I was eating so many small and starchy meals, and spent so much time wrapped up in a blankie with a hot water bottle, I only lost about half those extra pounds. I'm sure that eating a whole avocado every day helped, too! I've always used that for sick ratties, to help them gain weight, so, yeah. Too much sugar and starch while I was getting things under control. Now, I seem to be absolutely addicted to carbs, (is that possible?) and find myself desperately craving those hourly snacks of rice cakes, etc. I suspect I'm going to have some trouble getting rid of those nasty cravings and also getting out of the habit of eating tiny meals all day long. Oh, well. It's worth it, to be getting better.I just need to start focusing more on working with my horses or other things outside the house, because when you're treating this stuff, you're so microfocused on food! Now, I'm getting better, but I'm still so food focused, sometimes all I can think about is "what can I eat now?" That has to stop!







Carla, off to nibble some more jicama...


> quote:Originally posted by Talissa:Hey Yewtaw gal, sorry to read you were struck by the p. colitis. Scary stuff. But really glad you've got it under control...with that diet, exactly how skinny are you now??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My first year after giardia/flagyl, I became a walking skeleton...If you are a bit on the thin side rt now, I'm proof its only temporary. I'm still a thin person, just not bad enough for peeps to start rumors of anorexia!! But hey, you've got jicama, be glad for simple pleasures... T-


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## Talissa

Carla, thank you, thank you for all that good info! I'm sure you're helping others with your experience. I'm really proud for you.50 drops of GSE is ALOT! That's interesting you didn't have a negative response from that...You also made me feel very lucky I can eat raw fruits & vegetables







Q though--did you mean to say you can't take GSE capsules because they contain echinacea? Because they don't...? And like cats, I'm wondering about the echinacea being pro-inflammatory. That's very interesting.Also, the benefiber/p-h guar gum(& psyllium for that matter) are prebiotics, technically. I tried the benefiber again since you are helped by it, but I just seem to react to guar gum







Here's another positive study re: FOS for "moderate" crohn's~Gut 2006;55"Background and aims: The intestinal microbiota play a pivotal role in the inflammation associated with Crohnâ€™s disease through their interaction with the mucosal immune system. Some bifidobacteria species are immunoregulatory and induce increased dendritic cell interleukin 10 (IL-10) release in vitro. Fructo-oligosaccharides (FOS) increase faecal and mucosal bifidobacteria in healthy volunteers. The aim of this study was to assess the effect of FOS administration on disease activity, bifidobacteria concentrations, and mucosal dendritic cell function in patients with moderately active Crohnâ€™s disease...Conclusions: FOS supplementation increases faecal bifidobacteria concentrations and modifies mucosal dendritic cell function.(The percentage of IL-10 positive dendritic cells increased!)This novel therapeutic strategy appears to decrease Crohnâ€™s disease activity in a small open label trial and therefore warrants further investigation."http://gut.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/55/3/348


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## 21506

Hey, cats,Actually, I started Googling this a few years ago, when taking echinacea for a respiratory bug seemed to make my fibromyalgia worse. I mentioned it to my sister, who also has FM. She went off her echinacea for awhile, then tried it again, just to see, and sure enough, it made her aches and pains worse, too. So then, we did a little research (she works for a noteable international consultant whose firm specializes in the alt/ dietary supplements & phytomedicine industry (Google "LDI Group", fyi) We found a lot of corroborative stuff quite readily. There's controversy, as in everything, but since I was starting with my own in vivo experience, (plus sis') it was enough for me. I avoid immune stimulants now, and am much more comfortable. Here's a link which is short, to the point, and very objective:http://medherb.com/92ECHAUT.HTMHere's a general infofile, from American Family Physician, which briefly mentions the controversy (lack of empirical studies)http://www.aafp.org/afp/20030101/77.htmlHope it's helpful to you. Carla


> quote:Originally posted by catsdeadnow:Interesting, Carla - could you pls explain what you mean by echinacea stimulating the inflammation of your autoimmune?(I have Psoriasis, which is an autoimmune disorder, and had tested postive for Giardia).Also: Are you aware of any research that connects echinacea with inflammation ... or echinacea with autoimmune?Thanks.


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## 15670

Thanks Harpy - most helpful.


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## 21506

Tal, yes it is a lot! I worked up to it, starting with 25 drops. 50 just felt like the right amount, and when I hit on the grapefruit juice thang, it just worked out. (I used to whisk in 1 T. Benefiber and 1 drop of peppermint EO- and thank goodness for flavored stevia drops! Yum!) Even the fresh fruit aspect of it didn't seem to bother me. It's just what the body ordered, is all I can figure. I'm now just doing the 50 drops in the morning, and the probiotics at night, though I'm doing the Benefiber 2 or 3 times a day, in my tea. I'll probably switch to just tablets at some point, but the fresh grapefruit flavenoids and enzymes are probably quite helpful still, so no hurry.Nutribiotic GSE is what I have access to here- drops, tablets and capsules. The tablets are just plain GSE/glycerine, but the capsules are enhanced with echinacea and some other herbs.I'm sorry you can't do the Benefiber, since it's so pleasant to use, though *pricey*! (It's also great for emulsifying peppermint oil into a beverage) Even if you start with very small amounts and work up? Well! I have the same problem with psyllium! Isn't that the frustration of this illness? We're all just different enough that there seems to be no ideal one-size-fits-all solution, though by trying different ideas from this group, and tailoring them to fit my experience, I'm pretty happy with the regimen I've come up with.Thanks, oh thanks for pulling out quotes and posting them for dummies like me. I get so overwhelmed and discouraged when I try to assimilate those abstracts!!! I wish I could share them with a friend, whose teenaged niece has been diagnosed with severe Crohn's- the child's doctors have her on such high amounts of Lortab and prednisone. All she eats is something like Ensure. They're not doing anything at all in terms of supporting a healthy GI tract. I want to cry when she tells me how it's going, but they are so doggedly allopathic and so into trusting the doctors and not trying to learn anything about it, that it seems pointless to try.I come from a family of very fine doctors, but my dad always encouraged me to study and to question, and that saved both my life and my husband's at various times. Woh. Got off the subject there, and I'm already so chatty. Sorry! Thanks for your kindness and support!Carla


> quote:Originally posted by Talissa:50 drops of GSE is ALOT! That's interesting you didn't have a negative response from that...Q though--did you mean to say you can't take GSE capsules because they contain echinacea? Because they don't...? And like cats, I'm wondering about the echinacea being pro-inflammatory. That's very interesting.Also, the benefiber/p-h guar gum(& psyllium for that matter) are prebiotics, technically. I tried the benefiber again since you are helped by it, but I just seem to react to guar gum


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## Arnie W

Talissa, no worries at all. You are ever so sweet! I never take offence at being challenged or corrected - well, especially if done with the right intent. I do appreciate any concern expressed about hidden dangers of drugs and supplements. And you did convince me to come off Aropax and I've felt like a box of fluffy ducks ever since. Do you use that expression in your part of the world? If not, it's all good, anyway and I feel great.Hey and I have cut back on the tuna, you will be pleased to know. I also had my amalgam fillings replaced a few years ago and have not had my mercury levels tested since, so it would be interesting to find out where they stand now. I was on holiday when the NO was discussed here and it seems that I had misinterpreted what was being discussed, having just browsed through some of the posts at the time. I had heard that l-arginine was good to take for bodybuilding and bought some No-xplode. I had better do some research now. On one bb site, I did read of someone who described some side-effects he had experienced with one of the NO supplements.As for the 50 drops of GSE, I might try that, or at least work up to it.Harpy, the Nutribiotic GSE has echinacea in it, but there are other brands which do not. I used PURE Encapsulatins recently, which has GSE and Vitamin C. I order all my GSE supplements online.


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## Talissa

> quote:You are ever so sweet!


That would be you, Arnie. And you're right, I am really really glad you're cutting down on the tuna(it's too bad our seas are so polluted we have to worry about it though!!) I have to admit that I'm also tempted to try the liquid GSE at higher amounts. Would need to buy store GF juice though to mix it in--that's something we don't see much here, grapefruits. But I've read that's the best way to cut the taste. (Carla--you've clearly done your research...I love it! Re: benefiber--guar gum has a laxative effect for many--so you're just darn lucky, girl.)I'm back to the 3 a day GSE caps and eating without care again(still -mostly- healthy tho, ie,like the banana, bacon, eggs, whole grain toast with butter & honey that I had this am). Ahhh. I know Arnie--bacon--not good! Hey I had a yoga class to teach plus an hour & a half hike this am...but still, I've no business getting on your case abt the tuna, do I??


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## 21506

Note to self:Just because one is improving and beginning to enjoy a few nearly-normal pleasures of eating, this does not, by any stretch of the imagination, give one the natural ability to skip the GSE in the morning, neglect proper hydration, supplementation and soluble fiber priming, and then indulge in a nostalgic family pizza party, including four slices of pizza and two slices of pumpkin chocolate chip bread for dessert. :/Oy, what a night I had... so not worth it.Carla, the bloated, confessional harpy


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## 21506

> quote:Originally posted by TalissaCarla--you've clearly done your research...I love it! Re: benefiber--guar gum has a laxative effect for many--so you're just darn lucky, girl.)I'm back to the 3 a day GSE caps and eating without care again(still -mostly- healthy tho, ie,like the banana, bacon, eggs, whole grain toast with butter & honey that I had this am). Ahhh.


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## 21506

Sorry... Anyway, I think my former diet was so high in fiber, (lotsa legumes, nuts, seeds, fresh fruits and veggies) that I actually needed the Benefiber to counteract my unnatural adopted White Diet.You eat butter? :drool: I *dream* of butter...Carla


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## Talissa

I love butter!







Vit A, Butyric acid, & those SCFAs. It's only -bad- if you take in no omega 3's...Do you react to butter? I _really_ hope not!When I first went whole foods only, I learned this from Sally Fallon, but here's a good article, if anyone's interested~Why Butter is Better-------------------------Bad news...I have to stop the Florastor/S Boulardii







Well at least in this intestinal lab of mine, I'm learning what DOESN'T work. It seems to have given me a v yeast infection...it's amazing what you can find on line if you look for it~SACCHAROMYCES BOULARDII-- warnings & side effects"Other Possible Side Effects: You may have the following side effects, but this medicine may also cause other side effects. Tell your doctor if you have side effects that you think are caused by this medicine.You may experience flatulence (gas) and constipation (1) You may have itching or skin eruptions (4) You may develop a yeast infection (1)"Could've been the combo of florastor & all those yummy desserts I had....no bloating was fun while it lasted, I'll miss florastor...tear.So I'm definitely beefing up the GSE to help with the infection. I got 100%, not from concentrate, pink GF juice yesterday. It does work really well at being able to handle the GSE drops. (thx C)Tal


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## Talissa

My Update. Which I hope isn't embarassing you 'guys' out there







I miss florastor, I can't find any studies out there which show that s boulardii lyo(florastor) causes BV...but I found one that shows it helps urogenital bacterial balance...& even more studies on its benefits for the intestines.Maybe its a die-off effect, has to get better before it gets worse? Bottomline, I miss the florastor. I felt great while taking it...& super slim! So I'm going to start taking it again. Will see what happens, & keep you posted, even if it makes any macho males(you know who you are!







)blush.T-


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## Talissa

oops, I'm dyslexic today--up above, I meant to say,"...gets worse b4 it gets better"


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## cat crazy

Tal.An update on my probiotic roller coaster ride. As you know I'm still taking the vsl#3 since early Jan, and in early Feb (if I remember correctly) I added the Florastor, tip taken from one of your posts. The combination was working alright but about 10 days ago I ran out of Florastor and my rumblings of ibs came back with full fury. After a gap of 4 days I bought more Florastor and now been taking it again for about 4/5 days but symptoms have not stabalized.







So I added Reuteri (sp) as of yesterday. Not sure if it's helping with the d. Seems there's more bloating with it. Also having headache since last 2 days, related to reuteri or not don't know. One only good thing I noticed on reuteri, is my lips which are usually dry/chapped are now smooth and don't even need any lip gloss. Maybe reuteri helps something in the skin, who knows. Also still taking gse but only one or two a day. Or it could be the Oliveleaf caps which caused some die off effect, which I took for 3 days and stopped as it's too strong for me. Cannot handle the d, it makes me feel very fatigued. So my protocol for killing ibs for now (if it can be killed, b4 it kills me) will be to continue the vsl#3 tog with Florastor, and the gse 2 caps and away from the probiotic and see if I can get back to the level of improvement I was experiencing a couple of weeks ago. Sigh. On the good weeks of improvement I would say it was about 30% to 40% improvement. What a struggle it is to live with this blasted dis ease.Hanna


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## Talissa

Hi Hanna, Good to hear from you. Thx for the update, though its sadly familiar. So frustrating! You're like me though, I don't have the patience often times to try just one thing(stopping a supplement or starting a new one)at a time, so when things get unstable, its just a guessing game as to what caused the problem...And to confound matters, it could be something unrelated to the supps--ie, got a bug with something you ate, immune system's fighting off a cold, stress, etc. Where's the magic eight ball with all the answers







Fwiw, olive leaf can be highly inflammatory if you take the kind that has higher than 6% oleuropein. 3% is supposed to be ideal. And there's one company out there who makes 1%. The 1% helped one guy with UC(remission) after taking it for 6 months acc to an article I read at LEF...I actually got some D too(& it does make you tired--for me, esp in the afternoon after lunch), but I think that as well as my other problem came from the L rhamnosus, or else the prebiotics in the Bifido Complex, but I'm pretty sure it was the Lr. I stopped both and things all around are back to normal now after a few days w/o them...Will try adding the Bifido back in after a week or so. I really, really hope I don't react to the prebiotics...they seem so necessary for the good bugs to colonize...Hope things get better for you real soon H....quick Q--how long will you be taking the VSL#3 for this study??Thx again, Tal


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## Arnie W

How I identify with you both. I am forever trialling new supplements and then trying to work out why I got a touch of D, more gas....you name it. Sometimes, too, I wonder if somewhere in that crazy mix I take, there lies the cure, but its benefits are being expunged by another completely different supplement I'm taking at the same time. I'm too tired to work out whether what I've written makes sense, but I'm sure you know what I mean.I've jusst looked up the price of florastor. Well, it doesn't come cheap. Add international postage and a deteriorating exchange rate, and I'll have to think twice about ordering some. In the meantime I've just opened a 300 cps container of GSE and am going to take mega-doses of that for a month.


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## Talissa

> quote:I'll have to think twice about ordering some


Good idea. Let Hanna & I be the guinea pigs.







Completely understand w/ the int'l shipping. I don't even want to know the total $$ I've spent on things that didn't work...


> quote:I've just opened a 300 cps container of GSE and am going to take mega-doses of that for a month.


Good luck!!! Talissa


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## cat crazy

> quote:Originally posted by Talissa:Hope things get better for you real soon H....quick Q--how long will you be taking the VSL#3 for this study??Thx again, Tal


Tal. Thanks for your good wishes. And I wish all of us get over this malady forever. The study for VSL#3 runs till 1st week of April. Then for 4 weeks no VSL#3 at all. Then end of April or perhaps beginning of May they will tell me whether I was given the real stuff or placebo. After that I don't know yet what they will do based on the results. Its wait and see for now. Arnie. I identify with you also. For many years now my life has been an expensive trial and error with supps. The $$$$$ spent could make for a cushy retirement,







but no such luck. Tal and I will keep you posted on our experiments. Stay tuned.


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## cat crazy

Okay I'm going to correct my statement on cushy retirement, meant to say if those same $$$$ were saved I would'nt have so many debts right now.It's scary for me to even think of buying exp supps on retirement income. Hoping I'v kicked ibs by then.


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## 21506

> quote:Originally posted by Talissa:I love butter!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vit A, Butyric acid, & those SCFAs. It's only -bad- if you take in no omega 3's...Do you react to butter? I _really_ hope not!-------------------------Bad news...I have to stop the Florastor/S Boulardii
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well at least in this intestinal lab of mine, I'm learning what DOESN'T work. It seems to have given me a v yeast infection...it's amazing what you can find on line if you look for it~"Other Possible Side Effects: You may experience flatulence (gas) and constipation (1) ----------------------------So I'm definitely beefing up the GSE to help with the infection. I got 100%, not from concentrate, pink GF juice yesterday. It does work really well at being able to handle the GSE drops. (thx C)Tal


I adore butter. I've known butter was better since I was a sophomore in college and some blessed saint of a Food Science professor let us in on the nasty secret behind those so-called "healthy" margarines and other hydrogenated fats. It's just I can't digest fats of any kind since the c. diff, other than that in avocados, which not only doesn't seem to bother me at all, but actually allows me to follow it with some lowfat foods.I'm so sorry you're having trouble with Florastor. I just started it about 10 days ago, and I'm not sure yet whether it's helping, since the pizza disaster really set my guts back. However, I am experiencing some of that F & C, and am hoping it's a temp setback.I'm so glad the grapefruit juice is helping, esp that you were able to find not-from-concentrate- I've heard that concentrated citrus juices harbor yeast in significant quantities- not what you'd need right now. if you can find vanilla flavored stevia there, try adding 2-4 drops, depending on your dose of GSE. It gives it a hint of that Orange Julius kind of taste. Very nice!GSE has always been my saving grace for yeast infections, along with topical apps of ACV, lavender and tea tree oil. Easy to add to a little unscented natural lotion, and a huge relief for topical symptoms.I've been AFK for a week, so maybe when I read on, you'll be doing better with regard to Florastor and the yeast infection. Here's hoping!! I'll read on!Carla


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## 21506

> quote:Originally posted by Arnie W:Sometimes, too, I wonder if somewhere in that crazy mix I take, there lies the cure, but its benefits are being expunged by another completely different supplement I'm taking at the same time.=== Oh, yes!!!! I so relate!!! ===I've just looked up the price of florastor. Well, it doesn't come cheap.


=== I guess I'm really lucky- I found my local compounding pharmacist has carried this all along. I had but to ask. It is expensive, but I'm only going to augment my FloraSmart and Reuteri with it for a month or two, just to help them get going. I can't afford to do this forever. Thank goodness the GSE liquid is soooo affordable. And sooo helpful.Carla


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## 21506

I'm not doing well at all since adding Florastor. Seems to get worse every day. ("just" gas and constipation. "just".Maybe I would have done better with it if I had taken it earlier on, when I was suffering from hellacious "D".Now, I'm not sure whether I should stop taking it or not, but since I can't handle fiber, I'm not sure what to do. Being a vegetarian, I've never had to deal with this before. I've been totally regular my whole life, and the pain, discomfort and bloating is horrible, plus it's made me suddenly very irritable and it's hard to be nice to my family and friends, which is absolutely uncharacteristic of me.I don't know anything about laxatives, but herbal laxatives and extra magnesium have had no effect.Sure is quiet on the board. I was doing so well, and the only change has been the Florastor. Now that I'm ready to give up, there's nobody around... just my luck!Hope the quiet is because you're all doing well. Gotta go- caucuses tonight, gotta conduct my tiny precinct. Hope I'm not grumpy with them, too! Horrors!Carla


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## 15670

Carla, I'm sympathetic - but reluctant as hell to offer anything that could be construed as advice (as anyone limited to posting exchanges only should be - this board or elsewhere).The only encouraging thing I can offer is my experience - which could quite easily be useless or counter-indicted for you:- Having harboured Giardia for years, I'd become very accepting (and essentially oblivious) of what, by comparison, was prob very mild C: infrequent BMs ... usually requiring some effort ... never that 'fulfilling.' - My underlying problem -- basis of whatever (mild) synmptoms I had -- tho, was very likely intestinal yeast overgrowth. In my research I'd concluded "intestinal cleaning" (incl poss colon cleansing) was prob a useful prerequisite to treating the yeast (ie with GSE, and/or other anti-fungals). - I'd come to recognise my bad diet and other bad eating habits had likely contributed to accumulation of, uh, dried stuff, on colon walls. - I decided against the stainless-steel warm-water invasion (too much of the risk/benefit depends on the operator), and opted for an herbal prep from a company specialising in digestion/colon/blah-blah: http://www.renewlife.com/products/detail/cleansesmart.html_ SmartCleanse is two caps first thing AM ... and two caps from 2nd bottle last thing PM. - I never looked forward to -- or enjoyed -- any other bodily function more than the otherwise pedestrian BM: sooner following meals ... more frequent ... more regular ... totally effortless ... and a hitherto unknown sense of fully voiding. Blissful. (Well - 2nd most enjoyable bodily function, truth be told ... ).- I first began noticing results within 3 - 5 days, and had an established 'routine' within a week. - I found the renewlife personnel smart and informed and attentive. They do indicate the month-long package can be followed by a second, or even third month - suggestive, I suppose, of its mildness as well. - I'm going back for more. - You'll have to do what we've all had to do: Identify what strikes you as likely helpful for you ... then try it. (Not unlike dating, actually ...). - Wish it was more objective ... less speculative. It ain't. Best of luck.


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## Talissa

I'm around Carla! Sorry to hear about the turn for the worse...I wish florastor constipated me! Well, not really, but you know what I mean.Sounds to me like you should stop the florastor for a bit. See if things improve.I hope with all the promising research done on it that it actually helps SOMEONE here. I don't think its helping me much either...I may stop w/ it as well. Somewhere I read not to take it more than 6 weeks--I think it was just an opinion on a forum though.I've got the big bloat, but I really think its from the prebiotics/inulin/chicory in the bifido complex I'm taking.Only temporary? I'm hanging in there w/ it for now....OT--That's great you volunteer to run a pol precinct!! Impressive. My dad always volunteers but just on election days.(aside, aside--I sure hope the voting pop makes wiser decisions this year, but I won't count on it...)Well, I hope you get to feeling better very, very soon. Tal


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## Talissa

Hi cats


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## 15670

Hey Tal - sorry to hear you're still dealing with mixed results. I suppose it's too little/too early for you to have any kind of an opinion on KIRKMAN Pros?cats


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## overitnow

Hey Cats,I may have missed an earlier declaration...are you on the way to recovery, here?If that is what I think I read, very cool. how's the skin?Mark


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## 15670

Thanks ... I think: - only symptom I had/identified of Th1-dominant immune was Psoriasis, which had been doubling in area about every 2 weeks. - not so no more: Shrinking slightly, but scaled-inflammation is much reduced. Dr. Derm ("So when ARE you going to tell me what you're using?") calls it "atypical remission", and belives it will all be gone "soon".- either way, I still need to address autoimmune. And I will.Thanks for asking.


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## Talissa

C--the kirkman bifido factor -seems- to be disagreeing w/ me. This is the first time I've tried probiotics w/ inulin(the chicory). I -think- its making me very bloated. But I'm going to give it some more time.Have you started taking it?I thought you didn't have any GI symptoms? Is that because you "fixed" some "C" with the SmartCleanse, so its no longer an issue?I'm wondering about the psoriasis as well...Really hope its barely there...--Whoops, looks like we double posted again--some Qs are answered.







atypical. sounds good!T- _________________________ng-- any updates? How you doing after taking the course of antibiotics???


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## 15670

In my digestive smorgasbord of self-inflicted maladies, I'd concluded I would benefit from good/the right Pros (especially given one-week treatment with flagyl ...). I'd passed along Capt KIRKMAN for obvious reasons ... but had completely forgotten the formula included inulin. I'd expected to order a 4-month supply. Damn. I'd prefer no inulin. We'll see ... sorry it's not working out, Tal.


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## 15221

Sorry to hear the chicory or inulin is giving you some belly blues....I almost ordered it and saw the ingredients and balked on it....in my own recent experience I ordered Natrens Bifdo non-dairy Probiotics and some Custom Probiotics Bifdo dairy version.... Dairy version seemed to effect me a little allergic wise, sinus itching, sneezing, but was more pleasing to the gut, at least so far....but no need for FOS as far as I am concerned....SCD folks claim if you think your only feeding the good bacteria, well that might be wishful thinking....nothing new to report on from myself...wish there was but the status quo remains......later NG


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## 15670

As y'all know, I'm sure - KIRKMAN does offer inulin-free Probiotics (which, regrettably do include Pros that may be countra-indicated in cases of inflammation ....): http://www.kirkmanlabs.com/products/probio...lin_404_90.html


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## Talissa

ng--thx for the update. Am glad you at least tried w/ the (bactrim?) again--I know having them sit there, so tempting, was getting to you!







I ordered the natren's bifido(dairy) on Monday! Along w/ Bifidyn by source naturals...My update--I decided to go ahead & stop taking the bifdo w/ chicory. I didn't take any yesterday, & it may be a coincidence, but today, there's NO BLOAT...say it w/ me...ahhh







Oddly enough, I take the powdered Primadophilus Reuteri(which is a diff formula & has "FOS" in it) before bed with 3 caps of P Reuteri. I don't seem to get the bloat from whatever form of prebiotics are in the powdered form...but the chicory seems to be another story...Re: florastor...I stopped that 3 days ago, for the 2nd time. When I started up w/ it after stopping the first time, I didn't get another yeast infection. But I did start having stomach pains. I know this is normal for "IBS", but it isn't for me. I haven't had pain since my first year with IBS when I was tied to the loo(except for the occasional attack, which I don't get anymore, KOW).Anyways, I haven't had the pains since the day after I stopped w/ it.Soooo, now, after these experiments, I'm actually better off--as long as the bloat stays away. I'm back to taking--P. Reuteri(caps & powder), Jarro-dophilus EPS(just one cap/day), psyllium(of course), GSE ### 2 caps 3 xs/day(I just don't like the liquid) & kow, I have -no- IBS symptoms.





















I hope it lasts!Look forward to adding in the bifido again, sans chicory, just because I know I'm low, or was when I took the GSDL stool tests...Oh, & I stopped eating meat 2 days ago. Will still eat fish & dairy. Guess I'm still experimenting, eh???_________________________Stokes--are you still checking in??? Any updates Hanna???


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## 21506

Thanks, cats, for taking the time to respond. Lotsa things to think about there...


> quote:Originally posted by catsdeadnow:- I'd come to recognise my bad diet and other bad eating habits had likely contributed to accumulation of, uh, dried stuff, on colon walls.
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> Um, I hear people say this on the boards from time to time, but unless I'm wrong--please correct me if I am--it would be hard for any accumulation to be "dried" in the tropical rain forest environment that is one's colon... no? <giggle>Anyway, before I got C. diff, I had always had a very good vegetarian diet with lots of legumes, grains, nuts, seeds, fresh fruits/veggies/juice, etc., and couldn't even remember ever being irregular. I'm surely feeling more gratitude for that after your sharing your trouble.
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> ...and opted for an herbal prep from a company specialising in digestion/colon/blah-blah: http://www.renewlife.com/products/detail/cleansesmart.html_ SmartCleanse is two caps first thing AM ... and two caps from 2nd bottle last thing PM. - I found the renewlife personnel smart and informed and attentive. They do indicate the month-long package can be followed by a second, or even third month - suggestive, I suppose, of its mildness as well.
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> Oh, I really like REnewLife. I agree! I think they're a very good company. I have a lot of respect for the woman who broke out of her role in the supplements industry to start her own company, and I think they're religious about researching and bringing the best info to bear on their products. I use the FloraSmart, Intestinew and Triple Fiber.I've always been big on cleansing, but didn't want any invasive treatments after my doctor showed me pictures of what the inside of the colon looks like with C. diff raging... imagine a really, really long scraped knee- road rash and pus, etc. I figured the last thing I needed was to disturb that too much. It's already so painful.But I think it might be a good idea to try the SmartCleanse, now that I don't have the diarrhea, mucous, blood, etc., anymore. Esp. after all the rice diet effects, and this new complication...
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## 21506

Sorry if it was hard to sort out cats' quotes from my responses on that last post...carla


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## 15670

> [/- I'd come to recognise my bad diet and other bad eating habits had likely contributed to accumulation of, uh, dried stuff, on colon walls.
> 
> 
> 
> Um, I hear people say this on the boards from time to time, but unless I'm wrong--please correct me if I am--it would be hard for any accumulation to be "dried" in the tropical rain forest environment that is one's colon... no? <giggle>QUOTE]Ya know, the insight and understanding I have into the Colon is already more intimate than I'd have wanted. I honestly couldn't tell you if stuff actually accumulates ... and, if it does, its relative moisture content. There's so little I'm confident of - except: I liked SmartCleanse.Also: I expect I'll give Intestinew a go immediately following another 30 days of SmartCleanse. (It's my impression that RenewLife are not opposed to the two products being taken at the same time, but -- intuitively -- I'm inclined against that - no?)
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## 21506

Cats,I was mostly kidding... and yes, stuff really can seriously accumulate. I've seen pics. Wish I hadn't. One of the reasons I becamse a veggie.I think my system has calmed down enough to give SmartCleanse a try.I think your intuition is smack-on. I would stop taking my Instinew as well, until I finished the cleanse, but I would keep up my am GSE and pm probiotics regimen.So far, intuition has been mostly a help to me, and I'm so pleased that posters to this board don't pass judgement on things like that, or on people's decicions to go back to antibiotics if so inclined. This is a wonderful group.Carla


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## 21506

Tal,I *do* know what you mean... I wish Florastor tightened things up more for you... and less for me... I've been absolutely miserable for a week now, although a good herbal laxative formula (Dr. Christopher's Fen-LB, very mild) has begun to balance the "C", though not the gas and bloating.Guys can ignore this paragraph- I did have a little of that girl-itch for a few days, I'm sure from the Florastor, but apple cider vinegar took care of it, and it's gone now.I sure wish these supplements were more consistant in how they affect each of us. It would be so much easier.I'm still inclined to think that the best use for Florastor is during antibiotic therapy, and 2-3 weeks after, and I'm recommending it to people for that use, including pets. I think if I had known about it when I was on the Clindamycin, I might not be here today.







sad, too, because others might not hear about it, either, until they end up here. Bleah, said Toad.It also occurs to me that Florastor, being sensitive to anti-fungals, might be a bit of a waste of $$ if you're doing GSE. I know from past experience that GSE was more effective for killing Candida than was the Rx my doc gave me.On the other hand, we take probiotics, being careful to space them apart from one another, so... yeah. Still a judgement call.So sorry you had trouble with the pre/pro complex... I'm not surprised, though, given your reaction to Benefiber, darn it.(OT- I like being involved in local politics, though my party is *greatly* in the minority here in good ole Yewtaw. S'ok. Anyway, I do the election day thing, too, which I very much enjoy, and I figger being involved gives me license to gripe when I want to. As to wise decisions, I would just be a whole lot happier if *both* parties could come up with better choices for all of us!!)Thanks for the well-wishing... I sure needed a little encouragement! We wish the same for all here, I know.Carla


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## 21506

> quote:Originally posted by Talissa:My update--I decided to go ahead & stop taking the bifdo w/ chicory...today, there's NO BLOAT...say it w/ me...ahhh
> 
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> 
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> 
> Re: florastor...I did start having stomach pains. I know this is normal for "IBS", but it isn't for me...Anyways, I haven't had the pains since the day after I stopped w/ it.Soooo, now, after these experiments, I'm actually better off--as long as the bloat stays away. I'm back to taking--P. Reuteri(caps & powder), Jarro-dophilus EPS(just one cap/day), psyllium(of course), GSE ### 2 caps 3 xs/day(I just don't like the liquid) & kow, I have -no- IBS symptoms.
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> I hope it lasts!Oh, & I stopped eating meat 2 days ago. Will still eat fish & dairy.


Excellent news, Tal!Sounds like the juggling is paying off.I, too, have been having stomach pains, but didn't know it might be due to the Florastor- since it's giving me grief anyway, I think the time is right to give it a rest for a week and see what happens. I guess it's kind of silly of me to keep taking it just because it cost so much...Glad you're trying "meatless". Meat really causes bloat for me, but so does dairy. Before C. diff I did cheese ok, with Lactaid, but no more. Fish seems to like me just fine, but getting the safer wild-caught salmon is really pricey! I can't afford to feed my whole family good salmon very often! My hubby has been researching mercury and he told me the whole tuna fish thing has been blown waaay out of proportion, and with all the love in his heart he's encouraged me to feel ok about tuna from a can.Anway, I hope your comfort level holds!!And don't worry about the liquid GSE thing- I tried using a good not-from-concentrate grapefruit juice the other day. Ohmigosh, but that was nasty. Since you can't get fresh grapefruit, I think you're better to stick to caps, so it doesn't gross you out. Using fresh grapefruit-this seems crazy--it's quite pleasant, so I'm grateful to be able to continue with it, since it "feels" better.As of today, (dropping Florastor) my regimen:morning:GSE liquid, 30 drops in fresh grapefruit juice, with 3 drops vanilla stevia sweetener, 1 T. Benefiber and 1 scoop Intestinew.1 cap each GSE, enteric peppermint, ginger supercritical, holy basil supercritical, fennel2 caps Fen-lb (will quit this asap)vitamins (including MegaStress timed release B-complex)I wait an hour after this before eating breakfast. (oatmeal. period)noon/afternoon:1 scoop Renewlife Triple Fiber with peppermint water, fennel cap, and meal2 caps Fen-lb (will quit this asap)vitamins/mineralsevening:FloraSmart (Renewlife), Reuteri (Nature's Way), FOS, Benefiber2 caps Fen-lb (will quit this asap)vitamins/minerals (including PM stress B-complex)Hopefully, if I go back to doing as well as I was (no D, no bloating, no gas, no pain, just a very restrictive diet) I'll try the Fibercleanse from Renewlife, along with, perhaps, a steaming castor oil belly pack from my naturopath, to help me get rid of toxins.Meanwhile, since I'm already so miserable, I made a peanut butter and peach jam sandwich for the first time in five months. I figure I couldn't be much worse, anyway!! :::crossing my fingers::: I'll go back to being good tomorrow.Thanks for all your help!Carla


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## cat crazy

Tal. My update. Re Florastor - for the second time I ran out of it or rather the health food store did, so went without it for a week again. Noticed quite a lot of bloating past few days. (Think I should log everything in a diary rather than leaving it to memory). However bought some today and took one cap and feeling a bit better with the bloat already. Again keep in mind the study for VSL#3 could just be a placebo, they don't know, but the nurse said that when the trial is over in end of April they will actually give me the real stuff as an open-label. So the real test will be at that time. Also added P. Reuteri as of maybe 10 days, and I think it is helping with the digestion of fats, imo, but not so much with the bloating as for some days I was w/o Florastor and only taking Reuteri and vsl#3 and still felt bloated. So I'm now on a probiotic cocktail, combo of VSL#3, Florastor and Reuteri. Do you know if Reuteri comes w/o any fos in it? You are right about the Oliveleaf caps, (in one of your earlier posts), it is vile stuff for me. Just wondered if one should try the probiotics together with B-complex tabs as B vitamins are the most important vitamins for digestion and could help the probiotics along. It's worth a try. Hanna


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## 14217

I'm still here and learning a lot. You guys are so far ahead of me that I don't have anything to add.I took the Great Smokies test for intestinal permeability today. Ordered it from crohns.net. I've taken Great Smokies tests before but never ordered from the internet so I am curious to see how this plays out. The people at crohns.net said they provide the interpretation so I hope that holds true.I am not going to change anything until I get the test results, hopefully in 2 weeks. I have been on another elimination diet for the past several weeks. In nine years of this, I have never been able to identify my food triggers and, unfortunately, this latest elimination diet did not help me find triggers. One of my greatest frustrations is that I can eat the same thing one day and it is fine and the next day it is bad.Carla- I am a major believer in the value of intuition. One of the things I have been working on for quite some time is learning to listen to my intuition more and to stop letting my rational mind provide all these "reasons" that I shouldn't do what I know is right.My kids are on spring break starting tomorrow and we are off to Florida (I live in NC) tomorrow. Hoping for some warm sunshine and time on the beach!Stokes


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## 15221

Stokes enjoy your fun in the sun, I feel your pain and triggers are so hard to pin down... you have to almost eliminate as much as possible, and hope you can rebuild from a point of an undeterminable level. I also ordered that permeable test, but did not do it yet, I will be interested to see how you make out....The one thing I learned from a so called expert on allergic reactions is that you need to consume it for three days in a row to see if your reacting to a food source, constant reaction to the same food source will likely show you that you are reacting to it.....painful as it sounds....I say rotate your meals as much as you can your food might not overwhelm your system as much....I am trying to use more probiotics myself, Kefir, and homemade yogurt, knowing I can only do it sparingly or it will probably cause a reaction. The bromelain and quercetin might be helping me a little with the aches I often suffer from...taking that with much more regularity, as I eat alot of fat and protein to make up for my lack of carbs....one thing I do feel positive about is that I feel stronger lately, and I am sleeping a little bit better too....just cannot get the inflammation to cease, and therefore cease the over stimulation of messenger chemicals....yes serotonin is a big one with me ...my receptors get hit with alot of it and the little brain in the gut excites the big brain and vice versa....classic cyclic IBS....much progress is being made in so many ways but the net measurements in my own mind are not where I want them to be.....good luck....


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## Talissa

Carla, Thanks for the detailed plan of attack. Hope the pb & j didn't haunt you today! Have heard good things abt about the castor oil packs...here's hoping!Hanna--Primadophilus Reuteri in caps has no FOS. It's in the powdered version. Strange how I'm OK with that one. I guess not all prebiotics are the same. I really hope you had the placebo for this study, since the results haven't been that good. I know for the UC patients, the study lasted a year of taking VSL for them to see remission--$$$.Stokes, I had great luck with great smokies going thru crohns.net. I was anticipating problems, but it went as smooth as silk...Speaking of GDSL, whoc found my pesky gram negative bacteria, here's a great new find to help antibiotics kill the very hard-to-kill gram-negatives...they believe it will also work for gram positives(which is what C Diff is)~http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/...60308201958.htmAnd I posted this in research but I think you'll find it interesting. Researchers have found a protein that can help folks like us & our bile to fight off infections & further gut damage~http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/...60207232927.htm


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## 15221

This article certainly opened up my eyes as to why benzo's are somewhat effective for IBS, and other stress related conditions../It ties in with IL6 release and our need for inflammatory mediators...our noe endless struggles for natural anti-imflammatory sources....Lots of interesting references.... The complexity of interactions among neurotransmittersand neuromodulators in the brain continues to expand.The involvement of immune molecules has addeda new dimension. An important new contributor that is ofinterest to psychopharmacology is a unique cell, namedâ€œmast cellâ€ by Paul Erlich in 1887 because its numerousmetachromatic granules reminded him of a â€œwell-fedcellâ€ (German Mastzellen).1 These cells are particularlyactive in atopic individuals, who also have higher incidencesof affective disorders.2â€"5 Moreover, the allergyseason has been shown to affect mood and cognitivefunction in these patients.6 Stress is known to exacerbatemany neuroinflammatory conditions7, but, until recently,mast cells were not suspected of being involved in conditionssuch as dermatoses8, irritable bowel syndrome9,interstitial cystitis10, migraines11, and multiple sclerosis(MS).12 Although Hans Seyle wrote the first definitivework on stress13 and one on mast cells14, he did not linkthe two at that time. The effect of acute stress is particularlyevident in systemic mastocytosis, a rare conditioncharacterized by abnormal proliferation and activation ofmast cells.15,16 For these patients, and possibly many otherswho have a neuroinflammatory syndrome with an affectivecomponent worsened by stress (Table 1), whenanxiety rises, they know there will be a flare-up in symptoms,which may include flushing of the skin, intestinalupset, palpitations, migraines, and changes in mood andcognitive function.12 These latter symptoms could be dueto activation of brain mast cells, which are plentiful in thethalamus and hypothalamus.17â€"19Mast cells are found in most parts of the body and arewell known for their involvement in allergic and anaphylacticreactions20; then, surface bound immunoglobulinE (IgE) complexes with specific antigen, causing degranulation,like a foil package of popcorn popping untilthe contents overflow.21 Many of these molecules are preformedand stored in almost 500 secretory granules,while others are made do novo during or following stimulation.22,23 It is fascinating that one cell should have suchplethora and diversity of potent molecules that includearachidonic acid products, biogenic amines, chemoattractants,cytokines, growth factors, neuropeptides, proteoglycans,and proteolytic enzymes (Table 2). Althoughthe mast cell is ubiquitous in the bodyâ€"including thebrain, which does not suffer from allergic reactions becauseIgE does not cross the blood-brain barrierâ€"degranulationoccurs only in about 10% or so of atopic individuals.Moreover, increasing evidence indicates thatsome molecules are released from mast cells without degranulation,a process termed â€œdifferential releaseâ€ andfirst reported for serotonin.24 Other biogenic amines25,arachidonic acid products26, and cytokines27 may also bereleased differentially. The morphological appearance ofthis process is characterized by a more subtle set ofchanges within the electron dense content of the secretorygranules28 and has been called â€œpiece-meal degranulationâ€29 or â€œintergranular activationâ€.30 The type(s) ofmolecule(s) released may vary from person to person,and/or from organ to organ, depending on hormonal andpsychological state and the specific trigger.Anatomical and functional associations have been reportedbetween mast cells and neurons.31,32 Scanningelectron microscopy has documented mast cells close toendothelial cells and to neuronal processes.33 Moleculesreleased from nerves34â€"36, such substance P (SP), neurotensin(NT), nerve growth factor (NGF), and opioids37could trigger mast cells (Table 3), from which histamine1030271-0749/02/2202-0103/0Journal of Clinical Psychopharmacology Vol. 22, No. 2Copyright Â© 2002 by Lippincott Williams & Wilkins, Inc. Printed in U.S.A.GUEST EDITORIALMast Cells and Stressâ€"A PsychoneuroimmunologicalPerspectiveTHEOHARIS C. THEOHARIDES, PHD, MDTufts University School of Medicine, Boston, MassachusettsAddress requests for reprints to: Theoharis C. Theoharides, PhD,MD, Department of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics,Internal Medicine, Biochemistry, and Psychiatry Tufts UniversitySchool of Medicine, New England Medical Center, Boston, Massachusetts.Address e-mail to: theoharis.theoharides###tufts.educould stimulate neuronal depolarization38, which couldlead to further activation of mast cells. Moreover, mastcell derived chondroitin sulfate or heparin complexeswith NGF and extends its half-life from a few minutes tomany hours.39,40 Therefore, mast cell activation couldlead to abnormal nerve proliferation (i.e., in neurofibromatosisI).41 Intracranial mast cells could also be activatedby stimulation of the trigeminal42, sympathetic43,or sphenopalatine44 nerves and by acute restraintstress45, in the absence of any allergic diathesis. Somemolecules from these mast cells could have direct effectson the brain, while others could make the bloodbrainbarrier â€œleakyâ€ and permit circulating chemicalsto enter the brain.46,47 Breakdown of the blood-brain barrierhas been shown to precede any clinical or radi-104 J CLIN PSYCHOPHARMACOL, VOL 22/NO 2, APRIL 2002 TheoharidesTABLE 1. Neuroinflammatory syndromes with an affectivecomponent involving mast cellsAsthmaAtopic dermatitisFibromyalgiaIrritable bowel syndromeInterstitial cystitisMigrainesMultiple sclerosisNeurofibromatosisRheumatoid arthritisUnstable anginaTABLE 2. Mast Cell MediatorsMediators Main pathophysiologic effectsPrestoredBiogenic aminesEpinephrine, dopamine, phenylalanine (not synthesized, but taken Neuromodulationup and stored)Histamine Vasodilation, angiogenesis, mitogenesis, pain5-Hydroxytryptamine (5HT, serotonin) Vasoconstriction, painChemokinesIL-8, MCP-1, MCP-3, MCP-4, RANTES ChemoattractionEnzymesArylsulfatases Lipid/proteoglycan hydrolysisCarboxypeptidase A Peptide processingChymase Tissue damage, pain, angiotensin II synthesisKinogenases Synthesis of vasodilatory kinins, painPhospholipases Arachidonic acid generationTryptase Tissue damage, inflammation, painGrowth FactorsCSF, GM-CSF, b-FGF, NGF Growth of a variety of cellsPeptidesChemotactic factors Infiltration of leukocytesCorticotropin-releasing factor (CRH) Vasodilation, inflammationendorphins AnalgesiaKinins (bradykinin) Vasodilation, painSomatostatin (SRIF) Antiinflammatory (?)Substance P (SP) Inflammation, painVasoactive intestinal peptide (VIP) VasodilationProteoglycansChondroitin sulfate Cartilage synthesis, antiinflammatory, NGF stabilizationHeparin Angiogenesis, NGF stabilizationHyaluronic acid Connective tissue synthesis, NGF stabilizationDe novo synthesizedCytokinesInterleukins (IL)-1,2,3,4,5,6,9,10,13,16 Inflammation, leukocyte migration, painINF-; MIF Inflammation, leukocyte proliferation/activationTNF- Inflammation, vascular adhesion molecule expressionArachidonic acid productsLeukotriene B4 (LTB4) Leukocyte chemotaxisPlatelet Activating factor (PAF) Platelet activation & serotonin releaseProstaglandin D2 (PGD2) Vasodilation, painLeukotriene C4 (LTC4) Vasoconstriction, painNitric oxide (NO) Vasodilation, neurotransmissionCSF, colony stimulating factor; INF, interferon-; MIF, macrophage inflammatory factor; b-FGF, fibroblast growth factor; NGF, nerve growthfactor; TGF-, transforming growth factor-; TNF-, tumor necrosis factor-; SRIF, somatostatin; GM-CSF, granulcyte monocyte-colony stimulatingfactor.ographic signs of MS.48 Therefore, it is of interest thatchemical49 or stress-induced stimulation of brain mastcells50 increased blood-brain barrier permeability. Moreover,experimental allergic encephalomyelitis could notbe induced in mast cell deficient mice.51 These findingssupport the possible relationship between intracranialmast cells and migraines52, as well as MS53, that are oftenprecipitated or worsened by stress.54â€"57 Dura mast cellsalso express estrogen receptors33, a finding that, alongwith the report that estrogen augments mast cell secretion58,may possibly explain the higher incidence of migrainesin women or their frequent occurrence duringovulation.Many patients also experience tachycardia and arrhythmiasrelated to stress. Such cardiovascular symptomsmay be associated with increased sympathetic activityor reflex tachycardia in response to histamineinducedhypotension. However, such symptoms mayalso be explained by the recent finding that acute stresstriggers mast cell activation in the heart59, with subsequentrelease of histamine60 and IL-6.61 This action ofhistamine is not blocked by the usual antihistaminesand appears to be mediated through the type 3 histaminereceptor.62 IL-6, a key inflammatory cytokine63, isknown be released from the hearts of patients withacute coronary syndrome, and is now considered a criticalplayer in coronary artery disease.64 Stress-inducedcardiac mast cell activation may be involved in unstableangina and myocardial infarction triggered by acutestress.65â€"67 Acute stress also results in bladder68 and intestinal69,70mast cell activation, which may explain whysymptoms in interstitial cystitis (IC) and irritable bowelsyndrome (IBS) patients worsen under stress.Corticotropin-releasing hormone or factor (CRH orCRF) is the first molecule released under stress and activatesthe hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (PHA) axis.71We have shown that CRH72 and structurally related urocortin73are powerful triggers of mast cell activation inthe skin. In fact, urocortin was 10 times more potentthan CRH and much more potent than SP.73 Theseactions were mimicked by acute stress74 and may beresponsible for stress-induced alopecia areata.75 Suchfindings and the presence of both CRH and CRH receptorsin the skin76 have led to the hypothesis that the skinhas the equivalent of a local â€œpituitary-adrenal axisâ€.77Recent findings showed that hypothalamic mast cell activationby chemical78 or immunologic means79 triggeredactivation of the HPA axis. This action could bemediated either through activation of CRH neurons directlyor the release of IL-6, a CRH independent activatorof the HPA axis.80 CRH or urocortin then could befurther released from recruited immune cells.81Recognizing the involvement of mast cells and regulatingtheir secretion may be more important than simply addressingthe effects of individual mediators. A case inpoint is the clinical report (Pehlivanidis and associates,page 221 in this issue) of a young boy mistakenly diagnosedand unsuccessfully treated for epilepsy. When itwas recognized that his seizures were induced by acutestress and were associated with his mastocytosis, he wassuccessfully treated with a combination of the anxiolyticantihistamine hydroxyzine and the tricyclic doxepin. Theefficacy of these compounds may be explained by the factthat mast cell activation can be inhibited by certain tricyclicanxiolytic medications, such as amitriptyline andhydroxyzine82, and benzodiazepines.83 In fact, mast cellshave been reported to express high affinity benzodiazepinereceptors.84,85 Hydroxyzine was recently shown toinhibit neurogenic inflammation and experimental allergicencephalomyelitis in rats.86 In humans, hydroxyzinehas been used successfully to treat acute pain87 and remitting-relapsing MS.88 Such anxiolytic molecules couldbe combined with naturally occurring flavonoids89 or proteoglycans90for more efficient inhibition of mast cellGuest Editorial J CLIN PSYCHOPHARMACOL, VOL 22/NO 2, APRIL 2002 105TABLE 3. Triggers of mast cell activationAnaphylatoxinsC3a and C5aBacteriaAdherent E. coliChemicalsDetergents; food additives; xenoestrogensContrast media used in radiologyCytokinesIL-1, IL-2, IL-4, TNF-DrugsLocal anesthetics; neuromuscular junction blockers, opioidsFree radicalsGrowth factorsNerve growth factor, NGF; stem cell factor, SCFHormonesAdrenocorticotropic hormone, ACTH; corticotropin releasinghormone, CRH; estradiol; parathormone, PTH; urocortin, UcnIgE and antigenNeuropeptidesBradykinin; calcitonin gene related peptide, CGRP; myelin basicprotein, MBP; neurotensin, NT; somatostatin, SRIF; substanceP, SP; vasoactive intestinal peptide, VIPNeurotransmittersAcetylcholinePhysical conditionsCold; exercise; pressurePreservativesMonosodium glutamateRadiationElectromagnetic, UVToxinsBacterial (Clostridium difficile); insect (fire ants); jelly fish (manof war); plants (poison ivy)VirusesMeasles; parainfluenza; Sendaiactivation. Behavioral modification for stress reductionalso contributed to the treatment of the child described inthe case report by Pehlivanidis and associates. We usedthis approach because of our finding that training in relaxationled to a sharp decline in the frequency and severityof migraines and the release of the mast cell markertryptase11 in children.The mast cell has been considered an immune gate tothe brain91, as well as a sensor of environmental andemotional stress.92 It has also been linked to many neuropathologicalprocesses.93â€"95 This versatile role of mastcells96 compels a more appropriate name to indicate itspolydimensional potential, perhaps â€œpleiotropocyteâ€(Greek  multifaceted cell).AcknowledgmentsAspects of the work discussed were supported by the National MultipleSclerosis Society, the NIH, as well as by Kos Pharmaceuticals(Miami, FL) and Theta Biomedical Consulting and Development Co.(Brookline, MA). Thanks are due to Mr. Barry Silverstein for continuousencouragement and to Miss. Yahsin Tien for her patience andword-processing skills.References1. Galli SJ. New insights into â€œthe riddle of the mast cellsâ€: microenvironmentalregulation of mast cell development and phenotypicheterogeneity. Lab Invest 1990;62:5â€"33.2. Marshall PS. Allergy and depression: a neurochemical thresholdmodel of the relation between the illnesses. Psychol Bull 1994;113:23â€"43.3. Nasr S, Altman EG, Meltzer HY. Concordance of atopic and affectivedisorders. J Affect Disord 1981;3:291â€"6.4. Matussek P, Agerer D, Seibt G. Allergic disorders in depressed patients.Compr Psychiatry 1983;24:25â€"34.5. Graham DT, Wolf S. The relation of eczema to attitude and to vascularreactions of the human skin. J Lab Clin Med 1953;42:238â€"54.6. Marshall PS, Colon EA. Effects of allergy season on mood andcognitive function. Ann Allergy 1993;71:251â€"8.7. Rosch PJ. Stress and illness. JAMA 1979;242:427â€"8.8. Katsarou-Katsari A, Filippou A, Theoharides TC. Effect of stressand other psychological factors on the pathophysiology and treatmentof dermatoses. Int J Immunopathol Pharmacol 1999;12:7â€"11.9. Mayer EA, Naliboff BD, Chang L, Coutinho SV. V. Stress and irritablebowel syndrome. Am J Physiol 2001;280:G519â€"24.10. Theoharides TC, Kempuraj D, Sant GR. Mast cell involvement ininterstitial cystitis: a review of human and experimental evidence.Urology 2001;57:47â€"55.11. Olness K, Hall H, Rozniecki JJ, Schmidt W, Boucher W, TheoharidesTC. Mast cell activation in children with migraine beforeand after training in self-regulation. Headache 1999;39:101â€"7.12. Theoharides TC. Mast cell: a neuroimmunoendocrine masterplayer. Int J Tissue React 1996;18:1â€"21.13. Selye H. The stress of life. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1978.14. Selye H. The mast cells. Washington, DC: Butterworths, 1965:17â€"568.15. Valent P, Escribano L, Parwaresch RM, et al. Recent advances inmastocytosis research. Summary of the Vienna mastocytosismeeting 1998. Int Arch Allergy Immunol 1999;120:1â€"7.16. Hartmann K, Metcalfe DD. Pediatric mastocytosis. Hematol OncolClin North Am 2000;14:625â€"40.17. Goldschmidt RC, Hough LB, Glick SD, Padawer J. Mast cells in ratthalamus: nuclear localization, sex difference and left-right asymmetry.Brain Res 1984;323:209â€"17.18. Ibrahim MZ. The mast cells of the mammalian central nervous system.Part I. Morphology, distribution and histochemistry. J NeurolSci 1974;21:431â€"78.19. Pang X, Letourneau R, Rozniecki JJ, Wang L, Theoharides TC. Definitivecharacterization of rat hypothalamic mast cells. Neuroscience1996;73:889â€"902.20. Galli SJ. New concepts about the mast cell. N Engl J Med 1993;328:257â€"65.21. Douglas WW. Involvement of calcium in exocytosis and theexocytosis-vesiculation sequence. Biochem Soc Symp 1974;39:1â€"28.22. Schwartz LB. Mediators of human mast cells and human mast cellsubsets. Ann Allergy 1987;58:226â€"35.23. Serafin WE, Austen KF. 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Dvorak AM, Tepper RI, Weller PF, et al. Piecemeal degranulationof mast cells in the inflammatory eyelid lesions of interleukin-4transgenic mice. Evidence of mast cell histamine release invivo by diamine oxidase-gold enzyme-affinity ultrastructiral cytochemistry.Blood 1994;83:3600â€"12.30. Letourneau R, Pang X, Sant GR, Theoharides TC. Intragranular activationof bladder mast cells and their association with nerveprocesses in interstitial cystitis. Br J Urol 1996;77:41â€"54.31. Newson B, DahlstrÃ¶m A, EnerbÃ¤ck L, Ahlman H. Suggestive evidencefor a direct innervation of mucosal mast cells. Neuroscience1983;10:565â€"70.32. Stead RH, Tomioka M, Quinonez G, Simon GT, Felten SY, BienenstockJ. Intestinal mucosal mast cells in normal and nematode-infected rat intestines are in intimate contact with peptidergicnerves. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 1987;84:2975â€"9.33. Rozniecki JJ, Dimitriadou V, Lambracht-Hall M, Pang X, TheoharidesTC. 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Characterizationof a factor that promotes neurite outgrowth: evidence linkingactivity to a heparan sulfate proteoglycan. J Cell Biol 1982;94:574â€"85.41. Claman HL. New hope for neurofibromatosis? The mast cell connection.JAMA 1987;258:823.42. Dimitriadou V, Buzzi MG, Moskowitz MA, Theoharides TC. Trigeminalsensory fiber stimulation induces morphologic changes106 J CLIN PSYCHOPHARMACOL, VOL 22/NO 2, APRIL 2002 Theoharidesreflecting secretion in rat dura mast cells. Neuroscience 1991;44:97â€"112.43. Keller JT, Dimlich RV, Zuccarello M, Lanker L, Strauss TA, FrittsMJ. Influence of the sympathetic nervous system as well astrigeminal sensory fibres on rat dural mast cells. Cephalalgia 1991;11:215â€"21.44. Delepine L, Aubineau P. Plasma protein extravasation induced inthe rat dura mater by stimulation of the parasympathetic sphenopalatineganglion. Exp Neurol 1997;147:389â€"400.45. Theoharides TC, Spanos CP, Pang X, et al. Stress-induced intracranialmast cell degranulation. A corticotropin releasinghormone-mediated effect. Endocrinology 1995;136:5745â€"50.46. Wahl M, Unterberg A, Beathmann A, Schilling L. Mediators ofblood-brain barrier dysfunction and formation of vasogenic brainedema. J Cereb Blood Flow Metab 1988;8:621â€"34.47. Abbott NJ. Inflammatory mediators and modulation of bloodbrainbarrier permeability. Cell Mol Neurobiol 2000;20:131â€"47.48. De Vreis HE, Kuiper J, de Boer AG, Van Berkel TJC, Breimer DD.The blood-brain barrier in neuroinflammatory diseases. PharmacolRev 1997;49:143â€"55.49. Zhuang X, Silverman A-J, Silver R. Brain mast cell degranulationregulates blood-brain barrier. J Neurobiol 1996;31:393â€"403.50. Esposito P, Gheorghe D, Kandere K, et al. Acute stress increasespermeability of the blood-brain-barrier through activation ofbrain mast cells. Brain Res 2001;888:117â€"27.51. Secor VH, Secor WE, Gutekunst C-A, Brown MA. Mast cells are essentialfor early onset and severe disease in a murine model ofmultiple sclerosis. J Exp Med 2000;191:813â€"21.52. Theoharides TC. Mast cells and migraines. Perspect Biol Med1983;26:672â€"5.53. Rozniecki JJ, Hauser SL, Stein M, Lincoln R, Theoharides TC. Elevatedmast cell tryptase in cerebrospinal fluid of multiple sclerosispatients. Ann Neurol 1995;37:63â€"6.54. Poser CM. Trauma to the central nervous system may result in formationor enlargement of multiple sclerosis plaques. Arch Neurol2000;57:1074â€"6.55. Goodin DS, Ebers GC, Johnson KP, Rodriguez M, Sibley WA,Wolinsky JS. The relationship of MS to physical trauma and psychologicalstress. Neurology 1999;52:1737â€"45.56. Mei-Tal V, Meyerowitz S, Engel GL. The role of psychologicalprocess in a somatic disorder: multiple sclerosis. 1. The emotionalsetting of illness onset and exacerbation. Psychosom Med 1970;32:67â€"86.57. Mohr DC, Goodkin DE, Bacchetti P, et al. Psychological stress andthe subsequent appearances of new brain MRI lesions in MS. Neurology2000;55:55â€"61.58. Vliagoftis H, Dimitriadou V, Boucher W, et al. Estradiol augmentswhile tamoxifen inhibits rat mast cell secretion. Int Arch AllergyImmunol 1992;98:398â€"409.59. Pang X, Alexacos N, Letourneau R, et al. A neurotensin receptorantagonist inhibits acute immobilization stress-induced cardiacmast cell degranulation, a corticotropin-releasing hormonedependentprocess. J Pharmacol Exp Ther 1998;287:307â€"14.60. Huang M, Pang X, Letourneau L, Boucher W, Theoharides TC. Cardiacmast cells are increased in apolipoprotein E knockout micethat develop atherosclerosis and release histamine with acutestress. Cardiovasc Res 2002;in press.61. Huang M, Basu S, Pang X, Boucher W, Karalis K, Theoharides TC.Stress-induced interleukin-6 release in mice is mast celldependentand also involves cardiomyocytes stimulated by urocortin.FASEB J 2002;in press.62. Levi R, Smith NCE. Histamine H3-receptors: a new frontier in myocaridalischemia. J Pharmacol Exp Ther 2000;292:825â€"30.63. Papanicolaou D, Wilder RL, Manolagas SC, Chrousos G. Thepathophysiologic roles of interleukin-6 in human disease. Ann InternMed 1998;128:127â€"37.64. Schieffer B, Schieffer E, Hilfiker-Kleiner D, et al. Expression of angiotensinII and interleukin-6 in human coronary atheroscleroticplaques. Circulation 2000;101:1372â€"8.65. Deanfield JE, Shea M, Kensett M, et al. Silent myocardial ischaemiadue to mental stress. Lancet 1984;2:1001â€"5.66. Rozanski A, Bairey CN, Krantz DS, et al. Mental stress and the inductionof silent myocardial ischemia in patients with coronaryartery disease. N Engl J Med 1988;318:1005â€"12.67. Jiang W, Babyak M, Krantz DS, et al. Mental stress-induced myocardialischemia and cardiac events. JAMA 1996;275:1651â€"6.68. Spanos CP, Pang X, Ligris K, et al. Stress-induced bladder mastcell activation: implications for interstitial cystitis. J Urol 1997;157:669â€"72.69. Castagliuolo I, Wershil BK, Karalis K, Pasha A, Nikulasson ST,Pothoulakis C. Colonic mucin release in response to immobilizationstress is mast cell dependent. Am J Physiol 1998;274:1094â€"100.70. Theoharides TC, Letourneau R, Patra P, et al. Stress-induced ratintestinal mast cell intragranular activation and inhibitory effectof sulfated proteoglycans. Dig Dis Sci 1999;44:87Sâ€"93S.71. Chrousos GP. The hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis andimmune-mediated inflammation. N Engl J Med 1995;332:1351â€"62.72. Theoharides TC, Singh LK, Boucher W, et al. Corticotropinreleasinghormone induces skin mast cell degranulation andincreased vascular permeability, a possible explanation for itsproinflammatory effects. Endocrinology 1998;139:403â€"13.73. Singh LK, Boucher W, Pang X, et al. Potent mast cell degranulationand vascular permeability triggered by urocortin through activationof CRH receptors. J Pharmacol Exp Ther 1999;288:1349â€"56.74. Singh LK, Pang X, Alexacos N, Letourneau R, Theoharides TC.Acute immobilization stress triggers skin mast cell degranulationvia corticotropin releasing hormone, neurotensin and substanceP: A link to neurogenic skin disorders. Brain Behav Immun1999;13:225â€"39.75. Katsarou-Katsari A, Singh LK, Theoharides TC. Alopecia areataand affected skin CRH receptor upregulation induced by acuteemotional stress. Dermatology 2001;203:157â€"61.76. Slominski A, Wortsman J, Pisarchik A, et al. Cutaneous expressionof corticotropin-releasing hormone (CRH), urocortin, andCRH receptors. FASEB J 2001;15:1678â€"93.77. Slominski A, Wortsman J, Luger T, Paus R, Solomon S. Corticotropinreleasing hormone and proopiomelanocortin involvementin the cutaneous response to stress. Physiol Rev 2000;80:979â€"1020.78. Gadek-Michalska A, Chlap Z, Turon M, Bugajski J, Fogel WA. Theintracerebroventicularly administered mast cells degranulatorcompound 48/80 increases the pituitary-adrenocortical activity inrats. Agents Actions 1991;32:203â€"8.79. Matsumoto I, Inoue Y, Shimada T, Aikawa T. Brain mast cells actas an immune gate to the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis indogs. J Exp Med 2001;194:71â€"8.80. Mastorakos G, Chrousos GP, Weber JS. Recombinant interleukin-6 activates the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis in humans. JClin Endocrinol Metab 1993;77:1690â€"4.81. Karalis K, Louis JM, Bae D, Hilderbrand H, Majzoub JA. CRH andthe immune system. J Neuroimmunol 1997;72:131â€"6.82. Theoharides TC, Kops SK, Bondy PK, Askenase PW. Differential releaseof serotonin without comparable histamine under diverse conditionsin the rat mast cell. Biochem Pharmacol 1985;34:1389â€"98.83. Bidri M, Royer B, Averlant G, Bismuth G, Guillosson JJ, Arock M.Inhibition of mouse mast cell proliferation and proinflammatorymediator release by benzodiazepines. Immunopharmacology 1999;43:75â€"86.84. Taniguchi T, Wang JK, Spector S. Properties of [3H] diazepambinding to rat peritoneal mast cells. Life Sci 1980;27:171â€"8.85. Miller LG, Lee-Parritz A, Greenblatt DJ, Theoharides TC. Highaffinity benzodiazepine receptors on rat peritoneal mast cells andRBL-1 cells: binding characteristics and effects on granule secretion.Pharmacology 1988;36:52â€"60.86. Dimitriadou V, Pang X, Theoharides TC. Hydroxyzine inhibits experimentalallergic encephalomyelitis (EAE) and associated brainmast cell activation. Int J Immunopharmacol 2000;22:673â€"84.87. Hupert C, Yacoub M, Turgeon LR. Effect of hydroxyzine on morphineanalgesia for the treatment of postoperative pain. AnesthAnalg 1980;59:690â€"6.88. Hauser S, Stein M, Spear K, Theoharides TC. A pilot, double-blind,study using hydroxyzine in remitting-relapsing multiple sclerosisGuest Editorial J CLIN PSYCHOPHARMACOL, VOL 22/NO 2, APRIL 2002 107(RR-MS). XIVth World Congress of Pharmacology July 7â€"12,2002, San Francisco, CA.89. Middleton E, Jr., Kandaswami C, Theoharides TC. The effects ofplant flavonoids on mammalian cells:Implications for inflammation,heart disease and cancer. Pharmacol Rev 2000;52:673â€"51.90. Theoharides TC, Patra P, Boucher W, et al. Chondroitin sulfate inhibitsconnective tissue mast cells. Br J Pharmacol 2000;131:10139â€"49.91. Theoharides TC. Mast cells: the immune gate to the brain. Life Sci1990;46:607â€"17.92. Theoharides TC. Skin mast cells: the universal sensor of environmentaland emotional stress. Exp Dermatol 2002; in press.93. Marshall JS, Waserman S. Mast cells and the nerves - potential interactionsin the context of chronic disease. Clin Exp Allergy1995;25:102â€"10.94. Silver R, Silverman A-J, Vitkovic L, Lederhendler II. Mast cells inthe brain: evidence and functional significance. Trends Neurosci1996;19:25â€"31.95. Kines KC, Powell HC. Mast cell interactions with the nervous system:relationship to mechanisms of disease. J Neuropathol ExpNeurol 1997;56:627â€"40.96. Gurish MF, Austen KF. The diverse roles of mast cells. J Exp Med2001;194:1â€"6.108 J CLIN PSYCHOPHARMACOL, VOL 22/NO 2, APRIL 2002 Theoharides


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## Talissa

You guys are gonna laugh....& I'm probably telling you this too soon, but I'm so excited! & y'all are the only ones that can understand why...First, after you(Carla) said this~ "It also occurs to me that Florastor, being sensitive to anti-fungals...", I went back to the florastor site. They really stress not to take antifungals w/ florastor, but they listed quite a few herbal anti's that were okay to take w/ florastor. I'd thought I 'd read GSE among them.Not so. It was grape seed extract...Since I'd been on GSE for 3 months, I decided to stop with it & just go on florastor. I'm not changing the way I eat for now because I want to test it out. I've only taken florastor & P Reuteri caps the last 3 days...Sensitive folks pls dont read...THIS morning, I had the most perfectly normal, perfect colored, perfect feeling BM since I can ever remember.







It was beautiful! lol...I didn't want to flush it away... W/ the fiber, they usually are mostly rather puffed up & I don't need to strain. This am, I really had to strain to get things going. And rather than going twice, it was just one satisfying dump!!!







Will let you know if this continues.(g*d, I hope so)Thanks Carla for inadvertently leading me to this place...Talissa


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## Arnie W

I bet you were so excited that you forgot to photograph it for posterity. You know, it does give me hope to read experiences like that, as it means there could be a light at the end of the tunnel.Hanna, I've been thinking about your trial (and I would love to be on it too). I am surprised that you are able to take those extra supplements -p reuteri and florastor - with the VSL#3 while on the trial. If you get an improvement in symptoms, it would be difficult to pinpoint whether it was the VSL#3 which was effective.


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## 21506

> quote:Originally posted by Talissa:You guys are gonna laugh....I'm so excited! & y'all are the only ones that can understand why...First, after you(Carla) said this~ "It also occurs to me that Florastor, being sensitive to anti-fungals...", I went back to the florastor site....Thanks Carla for inadvertently leading me to this place...Talissa


I'm so glad to have been part of your discovery, Tal,since you all have been my saving grace through all of this!No laughing here... though I'd be hard pressed to explain to anyone why I was jumping for joy and COL (cheering out loud)!!!  Only us'ns would ever understand.I am so, so very happy for you! When I read your post, I honestly wished you were close enough for a hug and a luncheon including some yummy forbidden food!!Like you, I've been rolling that dilemma around and around, the GSE vs Florastor issue. Sounds like you made the perfect choice, at least so far!For me it made sense to temporarily stop taking the Florastor, because I was having such terrible side effects, but like you, I was feeling pretty sure that I needed to stop one or the other, and I wasn't sure I was ready to stop taking the GSE.However, the more I've thought about it, as I've gotten better each day, the more I've been pondering why everyone says you can't recolonize your gut with good bacteria. I'm just not ready to believe that. I think, though, that like antibiotics, maybe I would have done better with an effective, short-term course of the GSE, supplementing at night with probiotics, and then stopping the GSE altogether to go about replenishing the gut flora with the Florastor, P. reuteri, FloraSmart, etc.I've wondered how I can expect to really get healthy flora established and thriving on their own, when I'm hitting them every morning, for months on end, with military strength, C. diff-killing doses of the GSE? I might just be setting up a vicious cycle if I don't have a plan to move one! If I did that with antibiotics I'd be an idiot! Why should I treat a natural antimicrobial with any less respect? I might even create strains of GSE resistant bugs.So that's where I was with my thinking when I read your post. Kill the C. diff as best I can, then get the good guys going and let them do their job of fighting it off, as they did so faithfully the other 49 years of my life.Your "AHA" moment seems to validate that thought for the moment, so I'm going to go back to taking GSE morning and noon instead of just morning, probs at night, for another few days, then I'll go off the GSE and back on the Florastor and go fulltime with the probiotics and support, including a cleanse and fresh juice therapy. Then off the Florastor (I think they recommend a limit of 6 weeks?) and continuing on with probiotic, prebiotic and enzymatic support as seems appropriate.(Also, I hope to stop taking the enteric peppermint regularly after discontinuing the GSE, and only using it when symptoms demand, as peppermint oil is antimicrobial itself, as are almost all essential oils, and an accumulation of menthol volatiles in the body [liver] is toxic)Anyway, that's what I'm thinking these days...I can't tell you how delighted I am to hear your good news. Keep us posted! I'm sure most here would agree that we want all of us to graduate from this microbial boot camp!!Carla


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## Talissa

Carla, You're SO nice!! Thx for sending the good vibes. Well, I just feel ridiculous, taking the GSE while on florastor. So far with just the florastor, no yeast prob's & no stomach pains. I have a feeling those arose from the ongoing battle I was creating--take the good yeast, kill it, take it, kill it. Whenever I start feeling quite clever, the universe just ups & humbles me...







I just wonder if the florastor would've done me any good if I'd taken it before taking the antibacterial GSE. I feel like I cleared out alot of the "bad guys" with the GSE so then was able to add in some "good guys"...more room if you will...just thinking out loud... So, with that in mind, I think your plan sounds good, well-thought out. Just fyi, at florastor.com, they say it's okay to take florastor on an ongoing basis as a preventative after the "therapy" is successful...but of course they would encourage that! Nothing like lifetime customers...







Went on a wonderful 4 hour hike this am with friends & our dogs--up around the peak. So breathtakingly beautiful. I feel so blessed to be able to do something like that w/o worrying about D or attacks...I wish everyone here with D could get to this place. It's so sad to read these posts sometimes--esp the ones where they rely solely on their doctors for guidance & keep getting sicker, & those where they just accept it...Enough rambling! Hope that pesky new C problem is getting better,Tal


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## overitnow

For Tal...Another one bites the dust!



































Mark


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## overitnow

Just came back from our monthly "Dog Lunch" where all of the retired walkers get together at the local pub to eat, drink and complain. Talk turned today to cancer and other life ending problems, as another of us is dying. "She went to one of those doctors who only treat the symptoms..." 'Nuff said.If you look to the Northwest from your mountaintop, Talissa, I'll wave.Mark


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## Talissa

Mark, My friend.







That must have been some dog lunch...For me,this also makes me think of young Jess. From her posts, you can tell she had been a smart girl & knew the doctors were clueless. I wish she would have found this bb sooner. It may not have made a difference, but then again, maybe it would have...Re: my recent turn of events...I have a hard time believing this normalcy, which is familiar yet foreign, is actually going to continue. It's strange. I've spent the last eight years trying to fix it & its gone. I don't believe it's really gone, I'm okay now... There are no fireworks. It's just normal. Yawn. I'm trying _really hard_ not to, but I keep expecting the dysbiosis to rear its ugly head at any moment.In the meantime...







Thanks Mark,Tal


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## Talissa

Hi guys, Still holding steady, but not -quite- as perfect. There are still days with some bloating(not today tho







) and high sugar at one time still brings on additional trips to the loo, but solid...I want to post an article here, since we've discussed much of topics it covers...it's regarding autism treatment, but delves into chronic D, food intolerance, gluten, dairy, and now my newest research project(see "aspirin helps" D forum), prostaglandin E2~http://www.vaccinationnews.com/DailyNews/A...deManageAut.htmHope everyone's doing good/better/amazing,T-


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## overitnow

Sorry, Tal, I glazed over about half way down the article and skipped to the bottom. I saw a movie on the chemical reading of a lock of Beethoven's hair that indicated that his health problems--including diarrhea and debilitating pain!--derived from being leaded, a condition which remains problematical for those living in old housing and slum conditions to this day. (And a problem which, I am willing to bet, none of our primary care or GI specialists have ever mentioned.) The man who did the work on the chemical analysis is Dr. William Walsh, who is one of the people quoted in the article. If you Google him you will find his website with some remarkable claims on cures for Autism (and other conditions) with chelation of heavy metals and adequate supplementation to restore proper balances of mineralization. Interesting to see the reference to oversupply of serotonin in autistic children...I was under the impression that it was a lack of neurotransmitters that was a major contributor to ADD. Could these conditions be "flip sides" of each other?Mark


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## Talissa

LOL Mark, I had to go back & reread it a few times--very long. The chelation of heavy metals is very interesting--enter histidine.L-histidine is an amino acid, but it also has antioxidant actions. I thought you'd be esp interested because it has been shown to stop the PGE2 inflammatory cascade initiated by ctn bacteria like cholera, e coli & klebsiella. L-histidine also naturally incr's the stomach's HC1...I'm thinking your flavonoid mix may also have had the same effect on PGE2. Decreasing it like fatty acids & histidine can. Acc to articles read, it takes 12 weeks on ctn supps to get the PGE2 dominance to balance out with antiinflammatory PGE1 & PGE3...Not enough time now to go into more...all very interesting...Cats? Still around? The co. that makes digestive advantage ibs is doing a clinical trial for mild to mod non-scalp psoriasis in oregon...http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060403/sfm166.html?.v=5Wouldn't that be something?


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## 14217

Got the leaky gut test results and I do not have it. So time to move on to the next thing.I have 2 questions.1. Does it make sense to do some sort of cleanse before starting the GSE? I've read good stuff about Cleanse Smart here and in other places and have been thinking about doing that.2. I have bloating/distension all the time. It is usually a little better in the morning but comes back as soon as I eat anything. Regardless of what I've eaten that day, it always gets much worse around 7:00 pm. Am reflecting on whether that is significant. Anybody have any thoughts about that?Thanks, Stokes


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## 14217

Another question.I am starting the GSE. I know I need to ramp up. I bought the tablets, they are 125 mg each. I read an article by Leo Galland on dysbiosis that said 600 mg per day is the minimum and that you could go up to 1600 mg. So I wanted to ask what anyone else had done as far as a total dosage for a day. Hope all this makes sense, I am having major brain fog at the moment.Thanks, Stokes


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## Arnie W

I've nearly finished a month of taking 10 125mg cps daily and was able to stomach that dosage without a problem. On another site I have read comments from people who could tolerate only very small amounts. I have tried gse in liquid form and also different brands of gse capsules and never bothered about a cleanse beforehand.


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## Talissa

> quote:10 125mg cps daily


Wow--glad you're not seeing any negative effects Arnie. Any good effects yet??I'd start out slowly on it Stokes, as Arnie was taking GSE liquid, I believe, prior to the caps... Like start w/ 600 mg/day for a week or so and slowly increase it. The smart cleanse isn't necessary, but it wouldn't hurt either.Taking Paragone by the same co. really saved me when my IBS was at its worse in the beginning...Re: the bloating getting worse as the day goes on--that's typical IBS bloating.







fun, fun.Taking 6 P reuteri caps before bed seems to have zapped my bloating on a regular basis...but still get it now & then. I may add taking them first thing in the am too.Two nights ago I got a bit of fish poisoning after eating out at a beach restaurant...no fun. Soooo I'm also going back on the GSE after giving florastor 3 days to leave my system. Not too bad of a poisoning aftermath, but I just want to be sure to get the new bad guys out of there!T-


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## Arnie W

I had thought about suggesting to start slowly, as Talissa mentioned, as you could get negative side-effects. When I first started the drops, the therapist suggested 15 drops 3 times daily and even that is probably quite high to begin with.I'll probably continue using the drops, but, at this stage, have not really seen a great improvement with my digestion woes.My mother has a grapefruit tree which produces lovely sweet fruit, but she is unable to eat it because she takes statins. With certain medication, it is recommended that grapefruit be avoided.


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## 14217

Thanks so much for taking time to answer, I really appreciate it.I started with the GSE and probiotics on Tuesday. I decided to start with 375 mg of GSE. I get a very magnified reaction to anything I take so I figured I better start low. I decided to get the Reuturi powder with the FOS. I know about the possible increased bloating with FOS but there is a lot of research that says it can help with increasing good flora so I figured it was worth a shot.I have been getting some reactions like feeling "buzzy", maybe those are from die-off.Also am thinking about trying an anti-candida diet. I've done a lot of different elimination diets. None of those ever made any significant positive difference but maybe adding the GSE into the mix will yield some good results.Arnie- I'm sorry to hear the GSE hasn't made a big difference for you. One of my greatest frustrations with this stuff is doing so many things and not getting any lasting positive benefits.Thanks again for your help.Stokes


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## Arnie W

I try to follow an anti-candida diet myself - not religiously, but certainly for the bulk of my dietary intake.I don't want to be negative about my GSE experience. Remember it did work for Talissa. It is just that I had hoped for normal, regular bms. I have noticed that I don't get the bowel rumbling as much as I used to and I don't feel the urge to evacuate as frequently, so that's all good. My main symptoms are gas, incomplete evacuation and frequent, erratic bms, which don't fit comfortably into either the D or C categories. I would be so thrilled if you get the same benefits Tal did. With the die-off side-effects, listen to your body and increase the dosage when you feel up to it.


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## Talissa

I hope GSE helps too! I started off with a low amount too. I got a painful swollen lymph node on my neck for a few days from it--but it didn't last long. I figured it was just that rush off dead bugs causing a toxin release that had to be filtered through the lymph...yeh, die-off...







Although, I have to say it only helped me eat w/o the food reactions, after I'd taken it for about 3 weeks. I hope it got my C Fruendii & Kp bacteria levels down--thus less inflammation, thus less food intolerances.I think I need to just keep inhaling large quantities of probiotics though--since I'm low. With low enteric good bugs, it allows lots of diff potential pathogens to overtake.I feel really, really good taking the high-dose P reuteri(no fos) & bifidyn(no fos) right now...will start back with the GSE tomorrow--only 250 mg/day for maintenance, since I'm currently symptom-less(except if I eat too much sugar).Will let you know if the bloating stays away completely taking p reuteri am & pm--very high-dose($$$--worth it for the flat tummy! Yes I'm vain...







)Happy Easter weekend everyone!!Tal


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## 14217

Arnie- thanks for your words of encouragment, I really needed those today.Earlier in this thread, you said you go to a candida board. What one do you go to and do you find it helpful?Another question about diet. I am a vegetarian, not into it for a cause or anything, it's just what seems right for me. Anyway, I would have a very hard time eating like a baked chicken breast by itself. The only way I can do flesh food is if it's mixed in something like soup. What I know so far about the anti-candida diet is no grains, no sugar, no dairy, no fruit. If I eliminate all those, I think I'm left with flesh food, vegetables, nuts and seeds, eggs. So my question is- what do you eat? Do you have any ideas that I have missed?Well, I have to ask this. Are you a Lord of the Rings fan at all? I have always loved the books and was way into the movies too. I get a lot of inspiration when I think about Frodo and Sam and their quest. If they can keep going, I can too.Thanks, Stokes


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## 14217

Forgot something. Brain fog and information overload again!Would feeling more emotional (ie, more irritable, more sad) be something that could come from die-off?Talissa, so glad to hear you're still doing well. It's very inspiring and gives me some hope. After 9 years of this, it is often hard for me to continue to feel hope that this will get better. So it helps me a lot to hear that there is some success. A quesiton- earlier in this thread, in one of your posts, you made reference to "the book" (it was in quotes like that in your post). What book is that? I have to admit- I'm always wondering if I have missed something that could make a difference?Thanks, Stokes


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## 14217

One more question- has anybody heard of or used artemisinin?This is from a Leo Galland article on leaky gut: http://www.mdheal.org/leakygut.htm"If it has not, bacterial sensitization may have occurred. This may be treated with a regimen of antimicrobials and probiotics. My preference is a combination of citrus seed extract, berberine and artemisinin (the active alkaloid in Artemisia annua), which exerts a broad spectrum of activity against Enterobacteriaceae, Bacteroides, protozoa and yeasts."Am wondering if I need more ammo to wipe out the bad stuff?Thanks, Stokes


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## Arnie W

Stokes, I have sent you a personal message.There is a book called The Yeast Connection, written by William Crook, which gives you ideas for diets at different levels of debilitation. Have a search for that book and others in your local library. There are people who get so fatigued that they can hardly function and are sensitive to molds, yeasts and sugar. If your symptoms are not so debilitating, you can eat rice, quinoa, amaranth,etc. Nuts are considered to be ok, as long as they are fairly fresh, but avoid peanuts. Try avoiding wheat and all the obvious triggers.I believe that brain fog certainly does affect the emotions. Sometimes I can feel quite low in mood, fatigued and have a heaviness throughout my whole body and can only put it down to something I've eaten.Sorry if my thoughts are a bit jumbled, but I'm a bit tied up at the moment.


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## Talissa

Hi Stokes, I feel your frustration! Been there & still am to some extent. May be always needing these supps to live normally, grrr...The book is Gut Reactions, out of print, but available through resellers~http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/076790736...5Fencoding=UTF8Or download~http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000096B7...glance&n=551440It's one of the best I've read, & I've read ALOT.My best advice is stick with one plan of action for at least 3 months, unless you're getting much worse, & keep a detailed journal. If you feel you need something stronger than GSE, why not try the paragone? You take it for 15 days, then take a break, then 15 more days. You follow a diet while on it similar to what Arnie's talking about~ anit-candida. Then go on the GSE/probiotics...Fiber doesn't get much appreciation in general in the alt med world, but eating high fiber & taking fiber has helped me the most.I tried the anti-candida diet & just felt ill on it. Plus it was hard to stay on it when it seemed everyone was on it, but no one was getting better(I was on a list).But maybe Arnie has had better experience on it??? I hope?Exercise is important too. Ie, yoga, pilates, and some type of aerobic...You'll get better Stokes! Just believe. Just KNOW.


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## Talissa

T's update--Went off florastor so I could take GSE. Bloat came right back, like back when I stopped p. reuteri, but stayed on florastor. Also stools became floating & puffed from fiber again.Sooo I went back on florstor, & no more bloating. Noraml, healthy looking stools. But the florastor only seems to work on bloating, for me, if I also take p reuteri. I feel lucky I found the right combo for my current state of gut flora imbalance...And I found out yesterday that I can eat high sugar now too.







At least this time--Went to a beach party with 6 diff kinds of dessert. They were divied up among us all like a sampler, and well, I just couldn't say no, could I? (I spent my first 2 IBS years saying no, its NO fun). ...This doesn't mean I'm going to eat high sugar on a reg basis now. At all. And after not eating much sweet for so long, the desserts weren't even that good. They were TOO sweet!Anyways, I was fine last night. Fine this am. No bloat. Normal stool.Florastor + Primadophilus Reuteri! I wish this combo would work for everyone!!---------------------------Hanna???Any new news yet?T-


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## 14217

Arnie-Thanks for the info in the PM. I will check into that.I'm going to find the book you suggested. Have been doing some research on yeast and how that might be part of my situation. I think the book will help a lot.Today, I started on no grains and no sugar. Going to try that for a bit and see if it makes any difference. Will have to eat flesh food so am planning to make a big pot of soup this afternoon. Elimination diets in the past have not made any significant difference but maybe taking out the grains will change that.Thanks again for your help!Stokes


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## 14217

Talissa,It really is good to hear about your success, very inspiring! It's so great that you found a combination that works for you. That proves there's hope for everyone else!I am going to get that book. Had a little time to look for it on the internet today, may be able to get it directly from the publisher. It certainly has gotten a lot of good reviews.As I said on the other post, the dysbiosis is going to be really important for me. Due to my personal life stuff (2 kids, house chores, etc.), I haven't had time in the last few days to do any research but should have some time later this week. What I've read so far really clicks.I've had a CDSA 2.0 done, November 2003. I was living in Asheville at the time and saw an integrative physician there. Did a lot of other lab tests that she recommended. After your post, I dug out my results. It's hard for me to fully understand the results but it looks like the main thing was a low ph and being very low in the beneficial bacteria. At that time, I knew virtually nothing about this stuff and just went with the doctor said. Skipping over a lot of stuff, that's how I ended up on the food allergy path.It's been 2 1/2 years since the test so I've been reflecting on repeating it. One of my big frustrations with all this is the amount of money I've spent on diagnoses and treatments that didn't do any good







So I'm debating about whether to spend the big bucks on the test or go with my current plan and see if that makes any difference.Started on the anti-candida diet today. It's a big deal for me as I am a grain addict, probably a sign that I need to get off them! I have done bunches of elimination diets and none of them has ever made a lasting difference. But have not eliminated grains so will give this a shot.Didn't mean to make this so long! I do find that posting causes me to think through stuff and that's a good thing.Stokes


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## Arnie W

I'm a grain addict too. I don't know if you will be eating rice, but I find that toasted rice bread is a satisfying alternative for wheat bread. Keep it very simple. Don't even think about buying processed food at this stage, as nearly everything has added wheat and/or sugar.Take care.


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## cat crazy

Tal - It seems like you have beaten this beast of p/i ibs, more power to you. You are amazing in your info and knowledge of the stuff to kick ibs. I've learned a lot from you. Glad to know you are enjoying delish foods again without worry. Re my update - I've been off VSL#3 since April 5, as per the study I have to be off it for one entire month. My bowels are beginning to grumble without the VSL and not sure if it's just the mind thing or if my bowels are actually missing it. Not knowing if I was even on the real stuff for the past 3 months but there was some improvement after about 5 or 6 weeks on it. Meantime I am taking p-reuteri for now and I think it helps in some ways, for sure I'd be worse off without that. I'm not sure about Florastor's effect on me. Need to experiment more with it. It did seem to make the vsl kick in or was it just the timing thing for vsl to work. Anyway I also upped my dose of gse to 1000mg a day, but it seems too stong for me so will take 6 x125mg instead of 8x 125mg and see if that makes a difference. Can't wait for May 2 so I can get my hands on vsl#3 again.Hanna


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## Talissa

Hanna, Thanks! Very kind words. I'm learning from you too.But this might be stretching it~


> quote:It seems like you have beaten this beast of p/i ibs


If I could live this normally w/o all the supps, then maybe I could say that. Plus, when my period came round, it was back to going 3 x/s day. It's still there, I've just got a big blanket pulled over it, & it's always trying to get back out.







Maybe if I stick with this...& stay away from sugar







...my imbalanced gut will right itself eventually. If I lived in civilization, I'd go wheat free, and I'm sure that would help speed it up...But one thing you definitely should learn from my experience is don't, _really don't _ take GSE when taking florastor. It sounds like you are? The florastor folks say not to take antifungals with florastor for good reason. It messed me up there for a while--gut pains & yeast infection & once even uti pains. But I think its smart of you to load up on the GSE now before going on the VSL again. Like taking antibiotics with probiotics afterwards...Your experience w/ VSL3 sounds like me w/ florastor. I didn't realize how much it was helping until I stopped taking it. You're lucky to be in this trial...& get VSL for free! It's too bad its so pricey. But its potent, so I guess its justified.Thx for the update. My fingers are crossed for you!Tal


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## Talissa

Stokes, I missed your post above before! This is very interesting~


> quote:I've had a CDSA 2.0 done, November 2003.


! Yes, I think you're right abt saving your $$$ on another test. When you have low beneficial bacteria, and low pH, you know you've got dysbiosis anyways. The diarrheal bacteria revealed in my test was interesting to know about & learn about, but they're both highly resistant to antibiotics. It was also interesting to learn I had no candida, and the inflammation level was definitely worth knowing(this was brand new at the time, I don't think they had the calprotectin test in 03).My point is dysbiosis is dysbiosis, you'd treat it basically the same no matter what facultive bacteria have overgrown...& with low good bugs, its an assumption you have to make...Good luck with the diet. It's a toughy. But just stopping the grains will help alot! Plan on dropping some pounds too. Dr Mercola has a book out called the No Grain Diet, or something close to that. I don't have enough food choices on this rock as it is--I need the whole wheat for now. I wouldn't go on the anti-candida again, but would love to go wheat free...Re:


> quote:Skipping over a lot of stuff, that's how I ended up on the food allergy path.


Just imo, many foods shown to be problematic in food allergy tests are foods you currently are eating. No matter what you're eating, that's what will show up as no no's. It's because of the inflammation. All food becomes antigenic to varying degrees w/ dysbiosis and the resulting inflammation...my 1 cent.GOOD LUCK!







Remember high fiber is GOOD, once you adjust to it. Tal


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## 14217

Talissa,Thanks for these insights! As I said before, your insights have really helped me think all this through. Maybe you should become an IBS consultant. I mean that seriously! You have certainly helpd me.So 16 days with no grains, no sugar, 1000 mg of GSE per day and lots of probiotics. So far cannot tell any difference.I have been researching the Specific Carbohydrate Diet. It offers more variety than the anti-candida diet. I think you said you had been on it at one point so you know how it is. Do you have any idea of how long it would take to see any improvements on this diet? I'm going back to the integrative physician in Asheville next Tuesday. I have reached a point where I am going in circles too much and I need to hash this out with an outside party. Don't expect her to have any answers but hope she will be able to help figure out what direction to go in. I have done so many things and nothing has resulted in improvement so this seems like a good time to take a step back and assess where I am.Stokes


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## 21506

Talissa helped me, too, more than any of my docs, in coming up with my own intuitive healing program. It took me three months on the GSE/probiotics/restrictive diet to get rid of my C. dif.After four months, I'm now off the GSE, still using FloraSmart and REuteri with prebiotic soluble fiber at bedtime, eating all foods normally, and using enzyme supplements for a little extra help with dairy.Don't know if that helps, but it's a snapshot, anyway.Good luck, Stokes!Many, many thanks, Talissa!


> quote:Originally posted by Stokes:So 16 days with no grains, no sugar, 1000 mg of GSE per day and lots of probiotics. So far cannot tell any difference.I'm going back to the integrative physician in Asheville next Tuesday. I have reached a point where I am going in circles too much and I need to hash this out with an outside party. Don't expect her to have any answers but hope she will be able to help figure out what direction to go in. I have done so many things and nothing has resulted in improvement so this seems like a good time to take a step back and assess where I am.Stokes


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## Talissa

Stokes & Carla, You've both made my week with your kind words. Thank you so much for letting me know. 







We're so lucky to have the internet, aren't we? I've been helped as well by so many on the net, it's good to know I gave back some. You guys help others as well. Stokes, I stayed on the SCD for about 7 months, but I lost too much weight & had to stop with it. I think for peeps that live in civilization, it'd be easier to follow w/ success. For examlple, I couldn't get the DCCC or special bacon down here, or half the other special foods. I just wasn't eating enough on it because foods aren't available here. Plus, I couldn't stand the taste of the 24 hour yogurt. It did help me though. I wasn't taking fiber then & I was going solid once or twice daily much of the time. Elaine said to give the diet 1 year to work and to stay on it strictly for 2 years...This rotation diet ng brings up on the probiotics thread here in OTC though is something else to consider. I'm going to -try- it. It makes great sense~~" Although some people have a reaction soon after ingesting a particular food for the first time, food allergies often develop slowly. The reason for this is that if you consume the same foods daily, your body eventually develops an intolerance to them. Then, rather than nourishing the body, these foods provoke harmful reactions...The basic principle behind the rotation diet is that each type of food is to be consumed only on one out of every four days. For example, if you eat beans on Monday, you wouldn't eat beans again on Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday. If you eat salmon on Friday, you would wait at least until Tuesday before consuming any other fish. Rotating foods in this way will not only make you feel better, it will also help to stabilize your weight." http://www.moondragon.org/nutrition/diet/rotationdiet.htmlNotice the stricter versions say to rotate entire food classifications. Ie, chicken is a poultry, so no poultry meats for 3 days after eating it. Salmon is fresh water fish, so no fresh water fish for 3 days after eating it(which is actaully less strict than no fish at all for 3 days). I'd have to go with diff foods, rather than foods classes. Just not enough choices here....You're so lucky to be seeing an integrative MD!! I can't wait to hear all about your appointment. My fingers are crossed for you! Carla~~


> quote: It took me three months on the GSE/probiotics/restrictive diet to get rid of my C. dif...eating all foods normally


Does this mean what I think it means??? You're eating whole foods again? Normal stools & all?? G*d, I hope so! I'm going to assume so and do a little happy dance for you







Have a great wkd you guys, T-


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## 14217

Talissa,Thanks for your thoughts on SCD. I am still researching it, it is very overwhelming right now, well some parts of it anyway. As to the food part, I have been "legal" for 2 1/2 weeks although I did not do the intro diet. I was on the very restricted anti-candida diet before for about 10 days so I figure I got the die off from that. That plus the GSE. I am struggling with the supplements issue right now. Don't know whether to replace what I take with SCD legal stuff or maybe stop taking some stuff. In the book, she seems to advocate taking less supplements. On the BTVC web site, Elaine says not to take any bifidus. I've only read it once as of now but she seemed to be saying that bifidus can overgrow and cause problems. That really took me back, it seemed so contra to all this other research I've looked at. Would love to hear your thoughts on that. I have lost a lot of weight already which is not a problem for me. I've been overweight most of my life so losing weight is a good thing. I have not been able to find the DCCC either although there is one other place here that I haven't tried. Have not tried to make the yogurt either though that seems to be a big part of the diet. I'm thinking about investing in a yogurt maker, it would have to be easier.I read NG's post on the other thread. I think I've looked at the web site he is referring to. The rotation diet makes a lot of sense to me too. I think it would be very hard for me to do if I'm on the SCD although possible with a lot of effort. One problem I have is that I am a vegetarian and I have a really hard time with meat, etc. Not from a digestive standpoint so much, I just don't like eating it at all. I have struggled with that on this SCD too. I would really like to hear about how you do with the rotation.I think the visit with the integrative physician will be very good. I saw her quite a bit when I lived in Asheville and think she is very good. She knows my background and most of what I have done which will be a plus.Didn't mean to make this so long!







Hope you have a great weekend, Stokes


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## 14217

Carla,What great news about how much better you are doing! It gives me a lot of hope and inspiration that I can get better too.Enjoy your weekend, Stokes


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## Talissa

Stokes, Thx for the info on Elaine's opinion on bifidobacteria. I went to the btvc site & read the reference.I don't think I follow the logic. Bifidobateria helps crowd out bacteroides, but it's potentially bad because the info available is too ambiguous. She judges -all- bifidobacteria strains on early research linking its presence to celiac disease? However, she may be correct about ctn strains of bifidus. Ie, B. adolescentis is more able to amplify than down-regulate pro-inflammatory cytokine response. However, infant-type bifidobacteria, B. bifidum, B. breve, and B. infantis are able to stimulate anti-inflammatory IL10.I think much of this info is just coming out, after Elaine's passing--god rest her amazing soul. The info from new research is just going to keep getting more & more specific re: microflora. I love it!You inspired me to make almond flour cheese bread yesterday--so good toasted with butter & honey! Her diet changed my world there for a while. So much home cooking, it was so new. Plus I was so sick, it took all my energy just to plan & prepare the food... That part of her diet I continue & I'm so thankful it started me on eating only whole foods. If anyone's interested... *dang* if bromelain isn't antifungal! I was still taking the florastor(good yeast) when I started back up w/ the querc/brom combo, lower amount daily...after a few days, guess what happened? You got it, the old vyi & sharp ab pains...went right to the pc & typed in bromelain & antifungal. bingo.So...if you've got candida, 2 things for sure that will work are grapefruit seed ext & bromelain...I went & got tennis elbow, so I'm going off the florastor & sticking w/ the querc/bromelain for now. Also, the active volcano next door to us has been spewing ash our way for the past month...The bromelain is helping w/ the resulting congestion already... Will up the amount to recommended dose in a day or so...I bet this is why I got bloated from it the first time around. florastor & antifungals DON'T mix!!







So amazing what you can find if you look for it.It's great though that bromelain is anti-inflammatory, antibacterial & antifungal. Will report if results like Mark's come from it.Re: the 4 day rotation diet. Pie in the sky thinking. It's just not realistic for me. Going ev other day is more doable. Will count on ng to report back his progress w/ the 4 day...Pls let us know what your doc thinks? Thx.cul







Tal


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## 15221

Thanks for the link to that SCD page, I never read that one before and it had some good info even if it is outdated some of it made some sense but others were contradictions that I have alos thought about for some time. My own case of eating way too much domestic beef and not enough bifidus loving greens....or was it an allergic reaction to the beef...probably both...something grew out of proportion one of those Anerobic Bacteriods and even increasing the Probiotics did nada to stop it. Once again I resorted to a course of antibiotics and I had a wicked die off reaction that caused flu like symptoms for several days....so I took my last drug today and tomorrow I will keep my fingers crossed and try to balance my diet as well as possible....I keep asking the question why do these strains get so out of balance....the only thing I can come up with that sounds logical is that my immune system keeps reacting to foods, and the toxins that these bad bacterias in overabudant quantities are producing, so I continue with inflammation, and the gut never heals ....so I wondered how the heck I am going to stop consuming animal protein while not promoting the bad bacteria, being a vegan for six weeks perhaps.....? I don't know what do you guys think...? Could be the way to go for a while aye...?


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## 14217

My appointment with the doctor was good. I am still trying to take it all in, what she said is yet another major shift in thinking about my health problems.Because I have not responded to treatments that should have worked (allergy elimination, acupuncture, etc.), she thinks I have something else going on. The something else could be:very imbalanced neurotransmittersa neuroendocrine disorderheavy metal toxicityLyme diseaseI did not expect to hear anything like that at all so that's why I'm still trying to take it all in.I am doing lab tests this week to look at each of those things. Should have the results in 3 - 4 weeks. Will see her again at that point to figure out treatment.She thinks the IBS stuff is an effect of whatever else is going on, not a cause of the symptoms I have. I think that means I have IBS and something else, oh joy!!She did recommend that I stay with the SCD for a while as it should be healing for my gut. This really has blown me away. Although the thought of figuring out what is going on and maybe actually being able to feel better is very powerful right now. One of the things that has always stuck with me is why I have never gotten any better after doing the boatload of stuff that I have done.So I am busy trying to get myself totally legal on SCD. The doctor says I still need probiotics and I spent several hours on the Internet today trying to find a bifidus product that is legal. The only thing I could find is by Udo's Choice, anybody ever tried that one?I found a Yahoo SCD group and have been checking that some. Somebody on that recently brought up Lyme disease and there have been numerous posts on that. Very synchronistic for me!Alright, I am rambling now, brain fog has set in big time!Stokes


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## Talissa

Stokes--synchronicity--I just re-joined the healing crow(SCD & alt med) mailing list, & lyme disease was brought up on it YESTERDAY, and how it has the same symptoms as IBS, (it can spread via mosquitoes as well as ticks???)In a big rush, talk laterT-


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## 15670

Stokes,Be barry, barry careful: I too was presented with purely hypothetical assessment (ie: "It seems you could have X ... or maybe Y ... and possibly both"). I am no fan of "conventional medicine", but I totally agree with a key criticism of "alternative" - the unashamed willingness to diagnose in the total absence of any evidentiary basis. You decide for yourself. For moi, if it can't be proven, it can't be treated. PS I have taken Udo's Choice Probiotics. Who knows? I learned much about why all of these brands don't even qualify for the "probiotic" description - again, no evidentiary bases. We all pretend to be making rationale decisions. we're all flying by the seat of our pants. Fly on. Good luck.


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## Talissa

Cats,She's being TESTED for lyme disease.No one dx'd it.Her doctor is trying to help her find out what's wrong with TESTS to try & find out what's wrong.Just about everyone who's gotten lyme disease w/o a clear association btn a tick bite & then symptoms was first dx'd w/ IBS, so her(the doc's) looking into lyme disease is very rational & informed.


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## overitnow

We have a friend with Lymes. It took her a couple of years to find a doctor who would test her for it even though she "thought" it was so. It has been an awful experience for her and even following the course of anti-biotics she is still weakened. This has probably been exascerbated by the time it took for her to be taken seriously. Stokes is indeed lucky to have a doctor who would look at some of the more obscure possibilities. Mark


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## overitnow

I tried to reply to Noguts yesterday; but the site went down and I was gone for the day, after that. I think it a good idea to give a vegan diet a try. There are any number of growth hormones, anti-biotics, and who knows what else in animal feeds. Given the sensitivites of our digestive systems, a diet long on beef (or even chicken, farmed salmon, etc.) may well be too much to process without reactions. You ought to get a good indication over that time if the source of your reactions lies there. (There are also some great cookbooks out, now. We use one from our local whole foods restaurant, The Rebar Cafe in Victoria, that is available by mail order and is excellent: all of the recepies work and are delicious.)We have dramatically dropped our meat intake here to good effect. As much as I hate to pay the bills, we also try to buy organic fruits and veg, organic/free range meats, and wild fish.And we both take our flavonoids...Good luck with this.Mark


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## 14217

Hey Cats-Glad you're still around and hope you're feeling better.I totally get what you are saying. I've been doing alt med for 7 1/2 years. I have seen many practitioners who "diagnose" based on the latest trend in the alt med world. So I've had my share of those kinds of diagnoses. The woman I saw this week is an integrative physician, board certified internist. I first saw her while living in Asheville, in 2003. One of the main reasons I went to see her is because I wanted hard evidence of what was going on in my body, not somebody's intuition or whatever. That said, I talked to my sister on the phone after the appointment. One of the main themes of that conversation was- Who do I trust? That's a hard one for me, especially given the experiences I've had related to this health stuff. One of my greatest frustrations with the IBS is that even journaled articles are in conflict. One says trapped gas causes bloating, another says gas has nothing to do with bloating. So who do I believe? I realize that is a rhetorical question with an answer that shifts based on circumstances.I have a lot of symptoms besides the IBS stuff and I feel like I am getting worse which concerns me a lot. Getting worse in spite of having done a lot of things that "should have worked". As an aside, I hate the word should.Anyway, I am having lab tests done (I've had to give 12 tubes of blood this week







). Supposedly, those tests will tell whether I have Lyme, metal toxicity, etc. I've also given blood for liver, kidney and thyroid function tests. For the moment, I've decided to wait and see what the results are before doing anything else.I sure wish there were clear answers to this stuff.Enjoy your weekend, Stokes


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## 14217

Hey Talissa,The Healing Crow list is where I saw that stuff on Lyme. I also got on the Long Island SCD list serve, that's been helpful too. I have not taken the time to do any research on Lyme or any of the other stuff yet, I'm still reeling from all this plus my back has been out this week so I'm even more wimpy than usual







!Mark- I still have the Provex on my list and have followed the other threads on it. The doctor thinks my high cholesterol is because my liver can't process the cholesterol due to whatever else is going on.I am really glad it's Friday!! I am going to have a glass of SCD legal wine even though I will probably pay the price for that.Take care, Stokes


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## overitnow

Just for the record, Stokes (and not because I don't think you haven't read closely, or anything) the Provex will keep that cholesterol from attaching to your arteries (and may lower the amount already there). That it may (or may not) help your beleagered digestive system would officially be a side effect, although I think it a prime effect in my case.Without the irritation of aspirin and even in the presence of adrenalin. (Like you would be having any stress in your life.)Cheers.Mark


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## cat crazy

Hi TalJust to give you an update on my VSL#3 trial. As of May 2 they gave me the real stuff in their open label trail after 3 months of double blind study. Seems to me I was taking the real stuff in the double blind study as the effects are pretty much the same for me in the open label vsl#3. In terms of how much this probiotic has helped my ibs I would rate this at about 30% improvement. Took vsl#3 in Jan and stopped in end of March in the double blind study. No vsl# in April, then taking it in open label study from May 2. So seeing only about 25% to 30% improvement would it be worth the cost of this probiotic? Also not sure yet for how long one has to take this probiotic for long term results and at this rate of improvement who can dish out the mega $!I also think the probiotics work better together with the SCD, in my case anyway. Each alone does not work so well but put together with this diet I can say then there is greater improvement. Oh that SCD is so impossible to stick to. Any enterpreunial (sp) persons out there who want to open a business baking/cooking SCD foods for take out?


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## Talissa

Hey Hanna,Well, thx for letting me/us know. Shoot. The cost sure doesn't seem to justify the benefit--am glad you could try it out for free!


> quote:I also think the probiotics work better together with the SCD, in my case anyway.


Glad this is working for you though. Yay! Although...


> quote:Oh that SCD is so impossible to stick to.










I second that....& would gladly pay for someone else to prepare all that food as well. I'd never spent so much time in the kitchen before or after the 8 months I was on it.(Btw, my final analysis of florastor/s boulardii is that's its kind of scary. Will probably only take it again if I have to take antibiotics...)Thx again for the info on your experience, T-


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## 15670

Hey Tal - how come:final analysis of florastor/s boulardii is that's its kind of scary. cats


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## Talissa

Hey cats,Well, two times while on florastor, I took herbs which also happened to be antifungal(GSE then Bromelain). Both times I got sharp uti-type pains and yeast infection. Both times I stopped taking florastor, I got D again. Not uncontrollable, but uncomfortable...For someone who's had the D under control going on 6 years now, it wasn't fun.This last time, I decided to take paragone again. Help clean things out. The stuff whipped me right back into shape. Paragone was the first product I found to help 7 years ago. I need to start using it twice a year.So in my particular gut, I have no idea what exactly florastor was doing, but my "gut instinct" told me it might not be a good thing...Went back to iFlora, my first positive experience w/ a probiotic, & it has helped firm things back up, make 'em really normal, w/e. The same thing florastor had been doing for me. But no side effects.Hey, I hope you're doing well. How's that wonderful rosacea of yours? I hope barely there. Take it easy, T-


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## 15670

Thanks Tal - psoriasis has disappeared (dermatologist not even curious): I took Moducare to rebalance immune ... gone in 10 days. Still intend to have lab work done re candida, to identify cause of imbalance.


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## Talissa

> quotesoriasis has disappeared (dermatologist not even curious):










awesome!Can't believe the doc wasn't interested. I guess if its not an Rx solution, then it was just spontaneous remission...isn't that the allopathic line when natural medicine works??? Looked up moducare & it sounds good, and w/ your endorsement, I'm very interested in trying it. I'm going to the big island(PR) this wkd, will have to see if I can find it there.Am curious though about the candida test--you still have symptoms of an imbalance?? (nosy me)Am sorry about confusing rosacea for psoriasis--duh. Was in a rush, but still...







Thx for the exc update--am soooo happy for ya!T-


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## 15670

I'd posted the Moducare link long ago - seemed highly relevant for those dealing with (suspected) immune imbalance. Moducare's site lists various indy tests done - but there's also an alternative: Kalawalla. Same thing: modulates immune system (minimizing T10, if I recall). Kalawalla also has test references. Only prob: For how long does one modulate?


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## overitnow

As with all supplements, if it doesn't touch the root cause and if there are no side effects, you may have to modulate forever. The nice thing is that you can always take a break and see if the symptoms return. Additionally, there is the possibility that at some time between here and eternity someone may come up with a better therapy. It is approximate at best, these bodies we inhabit. Since we can't get new parts, sometimes we just have to be clever in patching our leaks. I am glad to hear about your success.Mark


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## cat crazy

> Originally posted by Talissa:This last time, I decided to take paragone again. Help clean things out. The stuff whipped me right back into shape. Paragone was the first product I found to help 7 years ago. I need to start using it twice a year.Tal - I bought paragone a month ago and now a little hesitant to try it thinking of the die off effects if any and what other reactions to expect. Can't take time off work for trial and errors. How was your experience during the time you were taking it? Any info from you will be helpful, as always.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers.


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## 20231

I am so gad I found Apple cider vinegar before I took alot of tests. Doc's just scared the #### out of me worse than the IBS did. Apple cider vinegar, 1 tablespoon +3 tablespoons water=CURE BABY, It's almost always a chemical imbalance. I swear it works, I didn't think it would either, it seemed to simple. Get organic good stuff. Save all the money for those useless substances. I'm off to Burger King for Breakfast. Yummy


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## 20231

Oh ya, drink apple cider vinegar before every meal. It will make you very hungry and you will feel your digestion start to fire up, awesome!


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## 14138

Just wanted to say after trying the GSE for four days it seems to be working for me! I suffer from IBS loose stool upp Gi pain. I take it every day with some pro biotics and omega -3.Since the day I started I haven't had pain so this is greta news!!Ninni


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## Talissa

Hanna? You still around? I hope so--sorry for the late response. Have been away &/or had company. Did you try the paragone yet? To answer your Q, I never have any die-off reaction from taking it. Its strange. I just have firmer, perfectly normal stools while on it. Kind of like how some peeps find normalcy while taking antibiotics... How bout you? Any other new news to report? Hope you're doing well girl, T-Finally Free, thx for the info on the ACV. Have some good Bragggs ACV in my cupboard but only use it for cooking & dressings....will have to try out your suggestion. Esp want to because it may help w/ appetite. With it being so hot right now, I have to literally force myself to eat...Ninni, so glad to hear the GSE is working for you, & so fast! It took about a month to make a diff for me, you lucky dawg







I've been eating horribly lately and basically only taking fiber & probiotics, so things are just -ok- , but not "normal". Will start back up with GSE & try to eat a bit better & see what happens...


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## 14138

hej Talissa!Well at the moment I am running low on GSE. Ifind that the combination of a low dose of Ginko Biloba and GSE =cure. I am not to glad about taking ginko since I believe one has to be really careful with alternative medicine ,so I ordered Inositol for my sleeping problmes and in hopes that it would help my IBS. Well it works!!!! I Figured that Insotitol has been compared to many anti-depressants and anti-depressants seemed to work for my IBS so I thought I should give it a try. I take about 500 mg a day and now sleep like a baby.


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## Talissa

Ninni,That's great the Insotitol is helping you sleep. That's one thing I've never had a problem with, & I have much empathy for those that do. It'd be really awful to have trouble sleeping.You said gingko & gse equals cure--I love it. Can you say specifically how it's acted as a cure? Made D disappear? C & D? Just curious. Re: potentially dangerous alt medicine--I'm here w/ IBS because of dangerous traditional allopathic medicine & will never be so gullible again...Overuse of antibiotics to be exact. I guess its just choosing your poison, eh?Again, its great to hear your success story, T-


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## 14138

OH man Talissa I spoke to soon .I slept like #### last night.....Well I have IBS D with alot of pain in the upper GI area. The ginko increases blood flow and whenever I have taken it I had normal stools and NO PAIN. Amazing ! But like I said it added to my insomnia problems. So I have been searching for another cure. At the moment I am taking GSE, 1000 mg omega three, B- Complex from TWINLAB and now I started taking extra Inositol about 200 mg a day and last week I started taking DIM a vitamin for estrogen dominance that also alleviates anxiety apparently....When needed I take also ATARAX which is an antihistamine that helps you if you have anxieties so you can fall asleep. I think it is doing the opposite for me cause I can't sleep.Have you ever tried ginko?I think you should give it a shot.Take lots of care,Ninni


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## Talissa

What a bummer ninni. Hope it was just a one-time thing. I teach yoga btw. I hghly recommend it for many things, but esp for your sleep problem. I've never met anyone who does yoga regularly(3+ xs/week) who has trouble sleeping...getting started is really the hardest part.Thanks for the GB suggestion. I already take it on a regular basis. It never impacted my IBS one way or the other to date.Thankfully, I'm still living a perfectly normal life with the fiber, anti's & probiotics. After going so long w/o GSE while eating out almost ev day for 3 weeks though, I could stand normalizing the stool form a bit more. Am hoping with the reg GSE again, this will help. Will try cutting bacvk on the gluten for now too...try. I'm also trying to get more consistent w/ the probiotics...Hard to get back on track when things are so busy!!Let us know how it's going for you. T-


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## 14138

Hi Talissa you made me happy since I just talked to a friend about YOGA!I will go and buy a dvd tom. Is 20 minutes of yoga a day to short or???I am interested in getting firm at the same time any suggestions on what type of yoga I should do of course the most important for mee at the moment is the sleep so getting toned will have to wait? I have a pilates dvd at home but think it is a pain in the butt. I wonder if pilates can give a similar effect on sleep.Let me know what you think and thanks for caringRen


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## Talissa

Synchronicity--love it. Guess its a sign yoga is for you







20 mins per session would be good. Better than not doing anything, for sure. But hopefully, you'll start really getting into it & would extend to longer times. 20 mins for pilates, if you focus & do it correctly would be enough to see some changes in your body. I don't know if it'd help you sleep though. A great way to do a full 45-60 minutes of yoga is to do it regularly with a friend. Forces you to do it. That's what worked for me when I first started yoga many years ago...If you do power yoga regularly(ie, Brian Kest, Baron Baptiste), it will tone you up. My all time fav yoga DVD which is also good for beginners is "Ali Macgraw: Yoga Mind & Body." She doesn't instruct on it--Erich Schiffman does. He's also got a wonderful yoga book...I also teach Pilates. Jennifer Kries is good for beginners. And once you master that, the MTV Pilates DVDs are great. So is a series called "yogilates".Sorry for being long-winded--you hit a hot topic for me Ren







Hope you're having a good one, Tal


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## 14138

Hi talissa!!Thanks for you tips!!I have been at mom and dads for a week now they live in Norway it is so pretty there. BUT Iw as a royal pain in the ass cause of the sleep thing. I now have started doing yoga and feel so much happier after. I LOVE IT. By the way you must be in super great shape teaching all that yoga and pilates! You go girl!I just wrote on another thread that I in desparation on wed bought calcium citrate and it is working like a charm. I found that I got the jitters from GSE not sure how it mixed with all the other stuff (I took St. Johns wort for a week for my pms, I have since last week stopped that too)I was taking but now that I don't take it I feel much calmer. When I take the calcium I become REALLY sleepy so I have slept now for 4 datys!!! Its a miracle!!I wonder have you ever tried to take calium?I can't seemd to take the GSE when I take the calcium I keep getting low blood suger attacks. Weird. Any thoughts on that?It is a pity with the GSE since I really love that stuff, Iwill try again at a later stage.Take lots of careNinni


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## Talissa

Ren,You are so lucky--it's my dream to go to Norway one day. I want to go fjord-hopping







The pictures I've seen of Norway just take my breath away. Is that where you grew up?You're also lucky the Calcium works for your symptoms. Glad its also helping you sleep. <happy dance>Have no clue as to why GSE would effect your blood sugar. It could be a die-off reaction maybe. Am glad that hasn't happened w/ me though.Yoga does make you feel great afterwards. Am so happy you found it...Take it ez,Tal


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## 19836

What a wonderfull site!! Great information, I'm glad I found it. I have been using GSE for several years now and found it very usefull, including a round with Candida. I suggest for those of you using GSE to check out www.allhealthtrends.com , they have the best selection and pricing on GSE items that I've been able to find. Anyway, it looks like I already have what I need in the cabinet, Thanks!Christine


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## 20656

Hi I am also trying to get rid of citrobacter. I have been following this forum because I gave up treatment a year ago. I kept on clearing the symptoms over a month or two and then stopped the herbs/probiotics etc only for it to return. I have been doing mercury chelation since then and was going to try and kill it off again. Has anyone got any advice for what seems to have worked for people. I am aware that oregano, gse, uva ursi and caprylic are effective in vitro but would like to know what has actaully worked with people permanently.ThanksPhil


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## 14139

Is it necessary to take a probiotic when taking GSE? Also how long is too long to stay on GSE?I would be taking it for IBS D. This is what I found it can be good for. There was alot of other useful info too but just searching after reading how GSE has helped so many.Internal uses include but not limited to : Digestive Upsets: Gastrointestinal Disorders, Diarrhea and Food Poisoning. Infections from: Parasites (single and multi-celled), Bacterial, Viral and Fungal. Candida Yeast Infections, Thrush and Chronic Fatigue. Oral Infections: Tooth Plaque, Gum Disorders, Breath Freshener and Mouthwash. Colds and Flu, Sore Throats, Strep Throat, Ear Inflammation / Pain, Gassiness, Sinusitis and much more!


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## Nanobug

> quote:Is anyone else trying out the GSE caps??


I have. GSE didn't do anything for me, unlike Xifaxan. Recent research shows "GSE" only works when there are real artificial preservatives in it. When pure GSE is used, no antibiotic action is seen.From Wikipedia:"However, there is considerable scientific evidence that the anti-microbial activity associated with grapefruit seed extract is attributable to the contamination or adulteration of commercial GSE preparations with synthetic antimicrobials or preservatives.[4] After careful evaluation of the anecdotal claims for an antimicrobial effect, the preliminary studies state that the Citricidal brand of GSE was used for testing. That said, despite the anecdotal antimicrobial claims, according to the 2001 GSE study, the Citricidal brand as well as the Nutribiotic brand were both contaminated with synthetic benzethonium chloride that was implausible to be made from grapefruit seeds.[5]"


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## Rick (never give up)

Hi Talissa,I finally finished reading this long, long, long post... uffff!!! (well nearly all







)The reason I got interested is because a very prolific member (you) post it and because of the huge amount of follow ups.So I did my homework and started some research on my own (thanks eric







)My question: Are you still talking GSE? If so, how are you doing lately? Hope you're still fine.I'm also interested in the brand you used. Right now I'm on the Vivonex diet for SIBO, so I'll probably not try it yet until I finish the protocol and wait a few weeks to assess the results.Nanobug, one word of caution, Wikipedia is an open library, meaning that it "may not always be" as accurate as other self contained/controlled sources. I'm not saying what you read is wrong, but if I were you I'll search other sources before I make my final conclusions. I also use Wikipedia a lot, so I found a few times in the past several articles about electronic engineering (my major) that had several inconsistencies.


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## Talissa

Hi Rick,I like your name very much! I'm never giving up either.







I hope you have success w/ the Vivonex diet. You must have amazing discipline & will-power(which is also shown by you reading this entire thread ! ).I'm actually not taking the GSE religiously atm. I'm alternating it along with other antibacterials--ie, golden seal, pau d'arco, olive leaf extract. And actually I'm not doing as well as when I took GSE three times a day, ev day. Nothing major--just not having to strain anymore, going 3 times in the am instead of once or twice, and I react to processed foods when I feel I have to eat them in social sits(not attacks, just gotta go later in evening)...Thx for asking. Life keeps going, you're busy, and you don't even sit back and think about it until someone asks...Thanks Rick. I may start going with it full time again.To answer your other Q, I use citricidal/nutribiotic or proseed, which uses full strength citricidal.Take good care. I think you're a great addition to this bb--another thank you!T-


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## Talissa

Nanobug,Thx for the link....Wikipedia really does let anyone submit information. Not a very balanced reference. But this isn't new info. I read about it, but kept researching & found more info for than against pure independently-tested GSE, like citricidal. Mostly, I was swayed by others good experience w/ it...Here's one of citricidal's responses to the "rumours": http://www.nutriteam.com/faq.htm#germanyHere's another: http://ccba.bc.ca/discuss1/_disc1/00001291.htm Also worth pasting, something that Wikipedia omitted, was several studies similar to this one~~ World J Gastroenterol. 2005 Nov 7 "AIM: Grapefruit-seed extract (GSE) containing flavonoids, possesses antibacterial and antioxidative properties but whether it influences the gastric defense mechanism and gastroprotection against ethanol- and stress-induced gastric lesions remains unknown.CONCLUSION: GSE exerts a *potent gastroprotective* activity against ethanol and WRS-induced gastric lesions via an increase in endogenous PG generation, suppression of lipid peroxidation and hyperemia possibly mediated by NO and CGRP released from sensory nerves."Another thing that Wikipedia's GSE article stated was grapefruit seeds themselves aren't antibacterial. This is absolutely false.But I can understand completely why someone wouldn't want to take it, based on these reports of b chloride in GSE. I guess I just choose to believe that the natural active GSE components are molecularly similar to b chloride, _and if it really were b chloride, it'd be pulled from the shelves by the FDA w/ much media fanfare._ Peace out







T-


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## Nanobug

> quote:But I can understand completely why someone wouldn't want to take it


Well, I did take it (Nutribiotic, 6 caps/day). It didn't do anything for me at least when compared with real antibiotics like Xifaxan. So I have to assume GSE is more of a dud in the antibiotic department than anything else.Note that I take loads of dietary supplemnets and have nothing against them, quite the opposite. I just prefer that they work!







By the way, "citricidal's response" is a joke. I want to see the real lab tests, not just smooth talk.


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