# Anybody have all-over body aches?



## Guest (Oct 18, 2001)

I seem to go through these stretches of miserable all-over achiness; my joints ache, my muscles hurt, I feel as if I have the flu without the respiratory and headache symptoms. Achiness migrates from one joint to another, my jaws ache, my arms feel tired and tight, it is just really uncomfortable. I have read that some alternative practitioners think IBS sufferers may have a "leaky gut syndrome" that causes these body aches; I don't really have an opinion on that, but it does seem to flare up about the same time as my IBS D symptoms do.


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## wanderingstar (Dec 1, 1999)

Have you considered the possibility of food intolerances, if these symptoms come and go and you feel well inbetween times. When having a food related D attack I get aches, going hot and cold, shaky etc. If they are constant, you should talk to your doctor as muscle pain and flu like symptoms can be symptoms of other illnesses. ------------------susanIBS D/C type & M.E/CFS[This message has been edited by wanderingstar (edited 10-18-2001).]


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## wanderingstar (Dec 1, 1999)

Have you considered the possibility of food intolerances, if these symptoms come and go and you feel well inbetween times. When having a food related D attack I get aches, going hot and cold, shaky etc. If they are constant, you should talk to your doctor as muscle pain and flu like symptoms can be symptoms of other illnesses. ------------------susanIBS D/C type & M.E/CFS[This message has been edited by wanderingstar (edited 10-18-2001).]


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## friski (Aug 27, 2001)

yes yes yes! but i have rhuematoid arthritis. i'm beginning to think it might be fibromyalgia though b/c it's my muscles too and I also have IBS and they frequently go together. But my doc doesn't listen to me


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## friski (Aug 27, 2001)

yes yes yes! but i have rhuematoid arthritis. i'm beginning to think it might be fibromyalgia though b/c it's my muscles too and I also have IBS and they frequently go together. But my doc doesn't listen to me


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## Mike NoLomotil (Jun 6, 2000)

ONO (Yoko?):Say HI to Kyoko.meanwhile you ask a very apt question: ___________________________".."leaky gut syndrome" that causes these body aches; I don't really have an opinion on that, but it does seem to flare up about the same time as my IBS D symptoms do." ___________________________...because you have made a clinical observation which has been confirmed physiologically, both in vitro and now in vivo, using both specific types of blood analysis and specific types of analysis of both the small bowel fluids and the tissues of the small bowel in persosns who have IBS symptoms, especially "d" and "cyclic" types (2/3 of IBS victims). Even after removing anyone who has the slightest positive signs of actual food allergy (IgE) which might be causing their bowel and systemic symptoms, as the Legendary Galactic Light Source points out correctly, abnormal responses to food particles or chemicals in foods of the various types of immunocytes (both resident within the "wall" of the small bowel and the upper colon) and within the blood stream cause the release of a multitude of vasoactive, neuroactive, proinflammatory, endo and excocrine active chemical mediators.They have been found in the jejunal washings, the small bowel wall on biopsy, can be observed reacting in the bloodtsream, and can be positively linked to being provoked by foods or additives which vary from person to person. This explains why immunomodulators like cromolyn sodium and certain fatty acids, as well as correctly constructed eliminatio diets, reduce or elimionate these symptoms along with the gut symptoms in the majority of "d" types and "cyclic" types (2/3 of the socalled "IBS" patients).Often, the pattern of reaction causes chemicals to be released which do not only act directly upon the bowel nerves, smooth muscles, blood vessels, and related organs but on the central nervous system itself, altering the pattern of signals produced by certain areas of the brain depending upon the specific reaction pattern the person experiences(example: endogenous pyrogens act upon specific areas of the brain which create responses which can make a person feel like she has chills or low grade fever or both transiently...this often happens before a d-episode and then subsides as the d-episode subsides after the attack). In some people, not only the mediators released into the blod stream precipitate the systemic symptoms, but it appears that tissue immunocytes in other body areas like the joints can also be "recruited" into the response.So, as long as you have been worked up by a board certified GI doc properly, and all other possible sources of your GI and systemic symptoms ruled out (your colon will look perfectly normal on examination since it is an affected organ not the site of the insult that is occurring..Swedish researchers most recently have isolated this to the small bowel), Stars' suggestion that food and chemical intolerances of sevral possible types (and the possibility of co-existing actual food allergies also exists) is very specific to your condition and very correct.The term "leaky gut syndrome" is very distasteful to some practitioners and lay people alike who do not understand the mechansism of food intolernce and how the gut structures, immunocytes, and flora all work together to maintain the guts' homeostatic immunoprotective functions.Now, there is some validity to their distaste for the term. To attribute the reactions which can be observed to a precursor altered permeability to lumenal contents is oversimplification, as it seems to claim to reslove what is actaully a chicken-or-egg conundrum.That is, we can see that the tight junctions, so to speak, of the microvasuclature are "loosened" in response to the release of certain mediators from mast cells and lymphocytes in the small bowel, which is supposed to help other immunocytes leave the circulation and move more easily to the site of a supposed insult (pathogen). When this happens an accompanying response of various circulating immunocytes is observed, triggered by certain meditors designed to trigger that response, which becomes self perpetuating and self-sustaining until the provocation is cleared from the small bowel by evacuation, and any "immune complexes" formed in the plasma are cleared by macrophages, and the circulting mediator concentration drops over time. [This assumes an episodic provocation...someone eating one or more reactive foods regularly, every day, every other day, even every third day] will remain in a variable but constant state of ongoing reactivity, so their symptoms may rise and fall in dramatic episodes but they are NEVER asymptomatic no matter what they do....hence the mistaken assumption that it has nothing to do with thier diet...the exposure-response cycle can be up to 72 hours long, unlike true allergies, so one must understand this plus the nature of dietary patterns to understand how we form this false conslusion so often).It was presumed by some for a long time that the reactions observed to foods in IBS d-and cyclic symptom sets(which become more clearly each day a symptom-set that is among several associated with loss of oral tolerance to foods or chemicals) were attributable to the gut wall allowing too many food particles which are BIGGER than are normally allowed thorugh, to get through to the plasma and thus abnormally large immune complexes are formed which trigger the cascade of circulating immunocyte response. So the "leaky gut syndrome" has been used to describe an etiology of indeterminate origin (idiopathic)as the cause of the food sensitivity phenomenon.This, accoring to the surprising findings of Swedish investigations some already published some finished but not yet published, does not appear to be the case. The "leaky gut" so to speak (altered permeability due to vasodilation of the microvessles and increased fluid content in the extravascular compartments) looks to be a CONSEQUENCE of a reaction that BEGINS with the small bowel mucosal immunocytes (mast cells) even though no specific IgE to a food which would would arm the mast cells can be detected by conventional means (RAST, ELISA, SPT etc).The upshot is that it would be a good idea for you or anyone with IBS (esp. D and cyclics) to study up on the subject, again assuming what I said about your differential diagnostic work is true. Then when your background understanding is enhanced the most recent work that has been done in the last couple of years (that is not in this book yet as it is too new, came after printing) will be more easily understood.This book will also allow to understand why certain methods work and others do not work when it comes to isolating the foods or chemicals which are provoking these symptoms. This will allow you to understand how to be more successful with dietary therapy and require less pharmacotherapy:ï¿½FOOD ALLERGIES AND FOOD INTOLERANCE: THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO THEIR IDENTIFICTION AND TREATMENTï¿½, Professor Jonathan Brostoff (M.D.. Allergy, Immunology and Environmental Medicine, Kingsï¿½ College, London) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/089...6487508-3420903 Eat well. Think well. Be well.MNL_________________ www.leapallergy.com


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## Mike NoLomotil (Jun 6, 2000)

ONO (Yoko?):Say HI to Kyoko.meanwhile you ask a very apt question: ___________________________".."leaky gut syndrome" that causes these body aches; I don't really have an opinion on that, but it does seem to flare up about the same time as my IBS D symptoms do." ___________________________...because you have made a clinical observation which has been confirmed physiologically, both in vitro and now in vivo, using both specific types of blood analysis and specific types of analysis of both the small bowel fluids and the tissues of the small bowel in persosns who have IBS symptoms, especially "d" and "cyclic" types (2/3 of IBS victims). Even after removing anyone who has the slightest positive signs of actual food allergy (IgE) which might be causing their bowel and systemic symptoms, as the Legendary Galactic Light Source points out correctly, abnormal responses to food particles or chemicals in foods of the various types of immunocytes (both resident within the "wall" of the small bowel and the upper colon) and within the blood stream cause the release of a multitude of vasoactive, neuroactive, proinflammatory, endo and excocrine active chemical mediators.They have been found in the jejunal washings, the small bowel wall on biopsy, can be observed reacting in the bloodtsream, and can be positively linked to being provoked by foods or additives which vary from person to person. This explains why immunomodulators like cromolyn sodium and certain fatty acids, as well as correctly constructed eliminatio diets, reduce or elimionate these symptoms along with the gut symptoms in the majority of "d" types and "cyclic" types (2/3 of the socalled "IBS" patients).Often, the pattern of reaction causes chemicals to be released which do not only act directly upon the bowel nerves, smooth muscles, blood vessels, and related organs but on the central nervous system itself, altering the pattern of signals produced by certain areas of the brain depending upon the specific reaction pattern the person experiences(example: endogenous pyrogens act upon specific areas of the brain which create responses which can make a person feel like she has chills or low grade fever or both transiently...this often happens before a d-episode and then subsides as the d-episode subsides after the attack). In some people, not only the mediators released into the blod stream precipitate the systemic symptoms, but it appears that tissue immunocytes in other body areas like the joints can also be "recruited" into the response.So, as long as you have been worked up by a board certified GI doc properly, and all other possible sources of your GI and systemic symptoms ruled out (your colon will look perfectly normal on examination since it is an affected organ not the site of the insult that is occurring..Swedish researchers most recently have isolated this to the small bowel), Stars' suggestion that food and chemical intolerances of sevral possible types (and the possibility of co-existing actual food allergies also exists) is very specific to your condition and very correct.The term "leaky gut syndrome" is very distasteful to some practitioners and lay people alike who do not understand the mechansism of food intolernce and how the gut structures, immunocytes, and flora all work together to maintain the guts' homeostatic immunoprotective functions.Now, there is some validity to their distaste for the term. To attribute the reactions which can be observed to a precursor altered permeability to lumenal contents is oversimplification, as it seems to claim to reslove what is actaully a chicken-or-egg conundrum.That is, we can see that the tight junctions, so to speak, of the microvasuclature are "loosened" in response to the release of certain mediators from mast cells and lymphocytes in the small bowel, which is supposed to help other immunocytes leave the circulation and move more easily to the site of a supposed insult (pathogen). When this happens an accompanying response of various circulating immunocytes is observed, triggered by certain meditors designed to trigger that response, which becomes self perpetuating and self-sustaining until the provocation is cleared from the small bowel by evacuation, and any "immune complexes" formed in the plasma are cleared by macrophages, and the circulting mediator concentration drops over time. [This assumes an episodic provocation...someone eating one or more reactive foods regularly, every day, every other day, even every third day] will remain in a variable but constant state of ongoing reactivity, so their symptoms may rise and fall in dramatic episodes but they are NEVER asymptomatic no matter what they do....hence the mistaken assumption that it has nothing to do with thier diet...the exposure-response cycle can be up to 72 hours long, unlike true allergies, so one must understand this plus the nature of dietary patterns to understand how we form this false conslusion so often).It was presumed by some for a long time that the reactions observed to foods in IBS d-and cyclic symptom sets(which become more clearly each day a symptom-set that is among several associated with loss of oral tolerance to foods or chemicals) were attributable to the gut wall allowing too many food particles which are BIGGER than are normally allowed thorugh, to get through to the plasma and thus abnormally large immune complexes are formed which trigger the cascade of circulating immunocyte response. So the "leaky gut syndrome" has been used to describe an etiology of indeterminate origin (idiopathic)as the cause of the food sensitivity phenomenon.This, accoring to the surprising findings of Swedish investigations some already published some finished but not yet published, does not appear to be the case. The "leaky gut" so to speak (altered permeability due to vasodilation of the microvessles and increased fluid content in the extravascular compartments) looks to be a CONSEQUENCE of a reaction that BEGINS with the small bowel mucosal immunocytes (mast cells) even though no specific IgE to a food which would would arm the mast cells can be detected by conventional means (RAST, ELISA, SPT etc).The upshot is that it would be a good idea for you or anyone with IBS (esp. D and cyclics) to study up on the subject, again assuming what I said about your differential diagnostic work is true. Then when your background understanding is enhanced the most recent work that has been done in the last couple of years (that is not in this book yet as it is too new, came after printing) will be more easily understood.This book will also allow to understand why certain methods work and others do not work when it comes to isolating the foods or chemicals which are provoking these symptoms. This will allow you to understand how to be more successful with dietary therapy and require less pharmacotherapy:ï¿½FOOD ALLERGIES AND FOOD INTOLERANCE: THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO THEIR IDENTIFICTION AND TREATMENTï¿½, Professor Jonathan Brostoff (M.D.. Allergy, Immunology and Environmental Medicine, Kingsï¿½ College, London) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/089...6487508-3420903 Eat well. Think well. Be well.MNL_________________ www.leapallergy.com


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## Mike NoLomotil (Jun 6, 2000)

Oh, missed this: _______________________But my doc doesn't listen to me _______________________That is just because of the nature of how specialists gain new info, so she has not seen nor assessed work done by immunologists or allergists, esp. when it is being done overseas where there is actually some funding allocated for such types of non-new-drug-creating investigation. It does not appear in the journals she reads nor is it discussed at the conferences she goes to. No doctor can know everything being studied everywhere especially obscure observations of gastroneuroimmune function as it relates to dietary provcation, and what that has to do with arthralgic and rheumatoid conditions.These reactions do not cause "arthritis" but they are comorbid in some people thus they aggravate a condition which already exists for another reason. Seen it plenty of times clinically, even have a guy in the next office with similar situation.This is why rheumatoids and arthralgics and FMS patients respond to dietary therapy and often test positive for cellular immune responses to foods or additives. It does not "cure" but it reduces the symptom severity in those people. And there is a way to tell with reasonable certainty, based upon the PATTERN of symptoms, whether a person with RA, FMS, or arthralgic conditions actually probably has these types of aberrant "immune" reactions to ingestants complicating things BEFORE they submit to actual testing for it (symptom surveys).So really we cannot blame a rheumatlogist or PCP if they never heard of the realtionship you are talking about. There is no money funding rheumatologic research in this area which woukd end up published in the journal read by that doc.But if you want to work with someone who does know about it you have to resign yourself to seeking one out (a doctor or dietician that works with and understands the subject). Don't go to an electrician for plumbing work then get made he does not know how to fix a leak. Its a different science.














Eat well. Think well. Be well.MNL___________ www.leapallergy.com [This message has been edited by Mike NoLomotil (edited 10-18-2001).]


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## Mike NoLomotil (Jun 6, 2000)

Oh, missed this: _______________________But my doc doesn't listen to me _______________________That is just because of the nature of how specialists gain new info, so she has not seen nor assessed work done by immunologists or allergists, esp. when it is being done overseas where there is actually some funding allocated for such types of non-new-drug-creating investigation. It does not appear in the journals she reads nor is it discussed at the conferences she goes to. No doctor can know everything being studied everywhere especially obscure observations of gastroneuroimmune function as it relates to dietary provcation, and what that has to do with arthralgic and rheumatoid conditions.These reactions do not cause "arthritis" but they are comorbid in some people thus they aggravate a condition which already exists for another reason. Seen it plenty of times clinically, even have a guy in the next office with similar situation.This is why rheumatoids and arthralgics and FMS patients respond to dietary therapy and often test positive for cellular immune responses to foods or additives. It does not "cure" but it reduces the symptom severity in those people. And there is a way to tell with reasonable certainty, based upon the PATTERN of symptoms, whether a person with RA, FMS, or arthralgic conditions actually probably has these types of aberrant "immune" reactions to ingestants complicating things BEFORE they submit to actual testing for it (symptom surveys).So really we cannot blame a rheumatlogist or PCP if they never heard of the realtionship you are talking about. There is no money funding rheumatologic research in this area which woukd end up published in the journal read by that doc.But if you want to work with someone who does know about it you have to resign yourself to seeking one out (a doctor or dietician that works with and understands the subject). Don't go to an electrician for plumbing work then get made he does not know how to fix a leak. Its a different science.














Eat well. Think well. Be well.MNL___________ www.leapallergy.com [This message has been edited by Mike NoLomotil (edited 10-18-2001).]


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

You may want to be screened for fibromyaglia by a specialist. Aching in the muscles all over is a feature of that and it appears most people with fibromyalgia have IBS symptoms. A rhumetologist would be the specialist to see for this.K.------------------ kmottus###aol.comï¿½When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fallï¿½Think of it, ALWAYS. ï¿½Mahatma GandhiMy story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

You may want to be screened for fibromyaglia by a specialist. Aching in the muscles all over is a feature of that and it appears most people with fibromyalgia have IBS symptoms. A rhumetologist would be the specialist to see for this.K.------------------ kmottus###aol.comï¿½When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fallï¿½Think of it, ALWAYS. ï¿½Mahatma GandhiMy story and what worked for me in greatly easing my IBS: http://www.ibsgroup.org/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html


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## beth_crocker1 (Nov 7, 2000)

I alos have a lot of aching here and there. Mostly my lower back and down my legs. It feels like muscle pain to me. It will just come out of the blue. Like the other day it was my lower back and my left leg. The next morning it was in my right leg. Just a real deep aching pain.


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## beth_crocker1 (Nov 7, 2000)

I alos have a lot of aching here and there. Mostly my lower back and down my legs. It feels like muscle pain to me. It will just come out of the blue. Like the other day it was my lower back and my left leg. The next morning it was in my right leg. Just a real deep aching pain.


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2001)

I get pains all over when I'm having a severe bout of C. I also notice a sort of toxic waste dump odor of my stool. Many times, the word sewage comes to mind. I mentioned this to a GI doc many years ago, and he seemed to know about it. The answer for me was to find out what foods were causing it, and avoid them. Strangely enough, enema stimulation seemed to help, so my guess was that there was some byproduct of digestion that my body was unable to tolerate. This is not a medical opinion, just a personal observation, and, thus may have no basis in fact. all flames on this subject will be, well, flushed


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2001)

I get pains all over when I'm having a severe bout of C. I also notice a sort of toxic waste dump odor of my stool. Many times, the word sewage comes to mind. I mentioned this to a GI doc many years ago, and he seemed to know about it. The answer for me was to find out what foods were causing it, and avoid them. Strangely enough, enema stimulation seemed to help, so my guess was that there was some byproduct of digestion that my body was unable to tolerate. This is not a medical opinion, just a personal observation, and, thus may have no basis in fact. all flames on this subject will be, well, flushed


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## Mike NoLomotil (Jun 6, 2000)

YOKO....good ideas all....Hey, how's your posture?







yuk yukNo seriously thus just popped into my head when I read the thread again.Once many moons ago when I was a practicing RRT I met a patient whose docs were going berserk trying to find markers to account for the disseminated body and joint pains, aches, stiffness, etc. running all the most sophisticated tests available at that time. I had to go to the patients house one day for a home visit vis a vis some respiratory problems and ..... found she was sleeping on a camp cot. A real crummy one. For years.We got a social agency to get her a bed....her arthralgia of indeterminate origin went into amazing remission.Just a story, does not fit your symptoms at all.KM has given you something to think about as well.MNL_____________ www.leapallergy.com


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## Mike NoLomotil (Jun 6, 2000)

YOKO....good ideas all....Hey, how's your posture?







yuk yukNo seriously thus just popped into my head when I read the thread again.Once many moons ago when I was a practicing RRT I met a patient whose docs were going berserk trying to find markers to account for the disseminated body and joint pains, aches, stiffness, etc. running all the most sophisticated tests available at that time. I had to go to the patients house one day for a home visit vis a vis some respiratory problems and ..... found she was sleeping on a camp cot. A real crummy one. For years.We got a social agency to get her a bed....her arthralgia of indeterminate origin went into amazing remission.Just a story, does not fit your symptoms at all.KM has given you something to think about as well.MNL_____________ www.leapallergy.com


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## wanderingstar (Dec 1, 1999)

MNL raises a good issue. I have body-wide pain in muscles, joints and nerves. When I moved house in March and got a comfortable sofa (i.e. better posture) some of my pain reduced. For the previous year I had been sitting on my mother's extremely uncomfortable sofa which causes very bad posture and my pains were so much worse then. ------------------susanIBS D/C type & M.E/CFS


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## wanderingstar (Dec 1, 1999)

MNL raises a good issue. I have body-wide pain in muscles, joints and nerves. When I moved house in March and got a comfortable sofa (i.e. better posture) some of my pain reduced. For the previous year I had been sitting on my mother's extremely uncomfortable sofa which causes very bad posture and my pains were so much worse then. ------------------susanIBS D/C type & M.E/CFS


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## Serendipity (Oct 14, 2001)

During attacks that are particularly bad, I experience muscle pain throughout my arms and legs. I also feel somewhat numb, and become very warm. ------------------Isn't it enough to see that a Garden is beautiful without having to see fairies in the bottom of it, too?


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## Serendipity (Oct 14, 2001)

During attacks that are particularly bad, I experience muscle pain throughout my arms and legs. I also feel somewhat numb, and become very warm. ------------------Isn't it enough to see that a Garden is beautiful without having to see fairies in the bottom of it, too?


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## Akn1965 (Jan 13, 2017)

I have my body aches.I have pains in my two hands.back pain,.I have burning sensation in my calf muscles


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