# PLEASE READ!!!!!!!!! CANDIDA AND IBS



## 17189 (Oct 7, 2005)

After suffering from severe IBS 'D' for three years and having had hospital tests, I now find out after paying for private tests that I have Candida (Yeast Overgrowth).I am so angry that this was not spotted before now and that I have had to live with such a debilitating condition, that could have been treated!!Candida can cause various bowel disorders, blaotedness, wind, food allergies, leaky gut, tiredness, skin problems, headaches, etc, etc. The list is endless.Anyone suffering from IBS, I would HIGHLY recommend getting a CDSA poo test done and a food allery blood test done. There is hope that I may get my life back again now that I know what I am dealing with!


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## 14013 (Nov 12, 2005)

i think there are quite a few herbal things to take that treat candida as well as IBS so just a thought that some people might take those thinking its treatin the IBS and really its getting rid of the candida. im not sure what i have because i get infection (urine/thrush) all the time and also get alternate C and D with stomach cramps, i dont know really


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## 15866 (Oct 26, 2005)

Jenny SI've been posting since Oct. 9 about IBS / Leaky Gut because of overgrowth of yeast and/or bad bacteria in our intestines. Read my posts on Grapefruit Seed Extract capsules. I've been taking them for 8 weeks now and I am 99.9% cured of my so called IBS of 20 years.I was told it was IBS when it was yeast/bacteria!I feel SO GOOD NOW!!!!!


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

"I now find out after paying for private tests that I have Candida (Yeast Overgrowth)."What test and what kind of doctor diagnosed you?Did they do a colonoscopy and "SEE" candida?


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## 15866 (Oct 26, 2005)

Jenny SI am so glad someone else has had it confirmed that it is yeast or bacteria! I'm so glad it only took you 3 years and not 20 like me! I had to figure it out on my own. Thank God I did figure it out finally!Thank God someone else knows what their IBS REALLY is!!!


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

IBS is not caused by candida so it wasn't IBS.IBS for one is diagnosed by symptoms, not by a cause, because they don't know the cause.Also Candida, cannot cause chronic pain. Everyone has candida in their bowel flora makeup. Alternative labs are always telling people they have candida. But unless its seen in a colonoscopy and a person has a severely compromised immune system, like cancer or aids.Millions of colonoscopy and research on IBS has not found candida and its not from looking either. Bacteria has been a topic of research in IBS for many many years now and not one specifc bacteria has been found. The are studying IBS under powerful electron microscopes, yet no candida. There are over 500 bacteria species in the colon, yet it is always candida. Because of a big hype from the alternative commuinity and "special labs" that do the testing.Some of the things done for "candida" help IBS but not because a person has candida but for other reasons.Irritable Bowel Syndrome: NIDDK"The lining of the colon (epithelium), which is affected by the immune and nervous systems, regulates the passage of fluids in and out of the colon. In IBS, the epithelium appears to work properly. However, fast movement of the colon's contents can overcome the absorptive capacity of the colon. The result is too much fluid in the stool. In other patients, colonic movement is too slow, too much fluid is absorbed, and constipation develops."http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/ibs/In the four years I have been studying IBS and current research in major depth, candida has gained less ground, not more. Postgrad Med J. 1992 Jun;68(800):453-4. Related Articles, Links Comment in: Postgrad Med J. 1993 Jan;69(807):80.The role of faecal Candida albicans in the pathogenesis of food-intolerant irritable bowel syndrome.Middleton SJ, Coley A, Hunter JO.Department of Gastroenterology, Addenbrooke's Hospital, Cambridge, UK.Candida albicans was sought in stool samples from 38 patients with irritable bowel syndrome and 20 healthy controls. In only three patients with irritable bowel syndrome was C. albicans discovered and these patients had either recently received antibiotics or the stool sample had been delayed more than 24 hours in transit. C. albicans was isolated from none of the control stool samples. We conclude that C. albicans is not involved in the aetiology of the irritable bowel syndrome.PMID: 1437926This was published in 92 first then 93 and since that time, there has been no research to point to candida as the cause of IBS. Actually they are begining to figure out IBS, especially motility problems and now they do see abnormalities which can explain some of the symptoms. But its not candida.


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## 17176 (Mar 31, 2005)

you might want to check out this site....netdoctor.co.uk there is a section on candida..


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## 17189 (Oct 7, 2005)

At the hospital, I had the usual tests for Cealiacs disease, parasite, colonoscopy, barium enima and was told there was nothing there and that I had IBS and they could do nothing for me.I had very severe IBS 'D' but managed to reduce the symptoms by following Dr Dahlman's programme where I cut out dairy foods and other foods, and took Digestive Enzymes and Acidophilus/Bifidus supplement.After reading various sites about Candida, it would appear that it can cause IBS and other bowel problems as well as leaky gut, food intollerances, muscle cramps, severe tiredness, headaches, stomach pain (which I have had for 5 years but reduced considerably when I took the supplements), thrush, and a host of other problems.I heard about the CDSA test from another member on this forum and I read about the IBS Food Intollerance blood test in the Daily Mail. The CDSA test was done at the Great Smokies Disgnostic Laboratory and the blood test was done by York Test Laboratories.It was the best Â£500 I have spent as I now know I have something that can be treated. I haven't had any 'D' attacks for 2 weeks now since cutting out yeast and milk from my diet but I am obviously still a long way off from feeling right as I need to tackle the yeast overgrowth problem.


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## 14013 (Nov 12, 2005)

i had the york test done by a guy i was having accupuncture from when i was a little younger but it said i was fine, if you have candida should it say anything other than fine? also before you take this test are you meant to eat some of the things you think you arent meant to have so it works or something? because i dont think i did it properly if thats the case


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## SophieUK (Dec 18, 2000)

Candida can be quite a controversial topic! What is not in doubt is that candida does exist in our bodies and as Eric says it can be a definite problem for people with things like AIDS.The controversial bit is whether it can cause IBS-type symptoms. I think most IBS specialists would agree though that a candida overgrowth is not the cause of IBS, although it is possible that it contributes to symptoms in some cases (there is a specialist in the UK who I respect who uses the CDSA test on patients and incorporates the possiblity of candida as one contributory factor, but only one factor among many others).I also agree with Eric that unfortunately candida has become a kind of buzzword for some alternative health people - just as the mainstream doctors put everything down to stress, alternative people can put everything down to candida.That's not to say that a 'candida diet' won't help - avoiding things like sugar can be good for an IBS gut. I think what we need to avoid though is the idea that candida causes IBS - that'd be great if it's that simple, but if it were that simple the researchers would have figured it out by now.Eric - I'd be interested to hear your opinion of the CDSA test and Great Smokies lab as I hear quite a lot about them. Do you think the CDSA test is worthwhile? (For those who don't know the test looks at a range of things including the balance of bacteria in the gut and absorption rates. See here for more info: http://www.gsdl.com/home/assessments/cdsa/faq/)


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

I believe as do many others that Dr Dalman a chiropractor, not a specialist in gastroenterology often gives out bad IBS information. He even has called ulcers IBS and calls all gi problems IBS. This is very bad advise and very inaccurate.So there might be part of the problem, inaccurate health information off the internet.So what "various sites about Candida" were you reading?" it would appear that it can cause IBS "No there is no evidence? That is the major problem. However there is quite a bit evidence agasint it being the cause now.The first article in Net doctor on candida and IBS which was written in 200. The case for candida as the cause of IBS has goten weaker not stronger over the last five years.Is Candida the Cause of my Irritable Bowel ?"evidence that Candida albicans (a yeast-like organism) is to blame is lacking.Your do not say where you had your allergy test, but there are many non-medical allergy tests designed to pick up the presence of an excess of Candida in the gut. Unfortunately their accuracy is in doubt."http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/ate/weightandnu...ion/203930.htmlSophie, blood work and stool tests have become way more sophisticated.People here over the years always have something when tested from GSL. I am personally not a big fan.A new test for Faecal calprotectin might be very helpful in sperating IBS from IBD conditions and inflammation.What does candida do, it doesn't seem to get worse or cause inflammation, they always say its the cause, but never using real medical science on how it can be the cause of IBS.Just like foods can trigger IBS by mast cell degrandulation it is possible transient bateria, even from leftover foods could occasionally trigger a symptoms here and there.In IBS the gut is hyper-reactive. To foods stress, bacteria ect..They also basically know what cause d and c and d/c in IBS. By the way serotonin kills candida.


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## 15866 (Oct 26, 2005)

There are more and more medical studies showing that IBS can really be yeast/bad bacteria build up in our intestines. I posted several of those sites.Many studies have said that the doctor's should be giving tests for yeast.I have proved those studies to be true.After 8 weeks I now consider myself IBS free.Or rather, leaky gut/yeast/bad bacteria build up.Grapefruit seed extract capsules were my cure.My insides are now normal.Except for the bleeding, which is because of my bleeding disorder and caused by Tamoxifen in the first place.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

> quote:There are more and more medical studies showing that IBS can really be yeast/bad bacteria build up in our intestines.


This is untrue. There are a lot of studies showing how a bacterial infection can develop into IBS after resolution of the infection, and that is called PI IBS. There a "cause" has been postulated.IBS has been a brain gut axis dysfunction since 97 eight years ago.The majority of IBSers do not relaize how complex IBS is and IBS is one of 21 functional gi disorders. Which have a lot of similarities."The symptoms of IBS are produced by abnormal functioning of the nerves and muscles of the bowel. In IBS there is no evidence of an organic disease, yet, something -- a "dysregulation" between the brain, the gut, and the central nervous system -- causes the bowel to become "irritated," or overly sensitive to stimuli. Symptoms may occur even in response to normal events." http://www.aboutibs.org/characteristics.htmlwhy?Often times people specualte on the cause or causes of IBS. However there are things to consider in regards to IBS that are important.For example, IBS can present as mild, moderate or severe.IBS is pretty common.More women then men have it.It does not lead to a serious disease.IT is one of 21 functional gi disorders.Why does it wax and wane or can be seasonal?How does the weather set it off?Why for some when you wear tight pants or move wrong it can set it off.Why does lack of sleep effect it?Why the high placebo rate in IBS?Some of these things may also apply differently depending on how bad you have it also, its estimated 70 percent are mild, 25 moderate and 5 percent severe. I know I fell into severe.Why sometimes does just lying down and relaxing make it go away for a lot of people?What do the majority of treatments that are shown to be effective have in common ?http://ibsgroup.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/43110261/m/596105671Again, as I have mentioned already, there is even less evidence for candida as a cause for IBS as there was five years ago, not stronger evidence, less evidence.


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## Arnie W (Oct 22, 2003)

Whew....candida albicans/IBS is a really grey area. GSE certainly seems to be effective against yeast overgrowth and might possibly help with IBS, if it is indeed IBS. It seems that many of us don't have pain, so maybe we don't have IBS. IBS can be a catchall phrase used to give a diagnosis without sufficient investigation.


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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

Hi Jenny,So glad you found your problem by taking the CDSA test. As some people here know, the CDSA found my overgrowth was/is a lesser known bad guy--Citrobacter Freundii...it isn't such a "hot button" like Candida/yeast...I had had 3 regular lab tests which found nothing at the onset of D, long time ago, before finally taking the CDSA last year.I don't think you're saying, Jenny, that IBS is Candida....right?It's just that's what your particular IBS symptoms were caused by..you...not everyone else.I'm helped by taking natural anti-yeast/bacterial products though, & so might others....For ex, since recently adding grapefruit seed extract regularly, I was able to have a huge, fatty T-Day meal w/o any D problems at all...that's a first since getting IBS-D 8 yrs ago or so...I even had some wine...ate like a normal(yeah!







).Thx for sharing your news JS!T-


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

ANTIMICROBIAL AGENTS AND CHEMOTHERAPY Antifungal properties of 5-hydroxytryptamine (serotonin) against Candida species in vitro http://jmm.sgmjournals.org/cgi/content/full/52/2/169Book ReviewCandida and Candidiasisfrom Emerging Infectious DiseasesPosted 10/01/2002Mary E. BrandtRichard A. Calderone, editorAmerican Society for Microbiology Press, Washington, 2001, 472 pagesYeast of the genus Candida have exploded into prominence in recent years as opportunistic and nosocomial fungal pathogens. However, the most recent textbook on these organisms was written in 1988. Candida and Candidiasis is a worthy successor in providing comprehensive information on the biology of these organisms.A total of 28 chapters cover the general properties, virulence factors, cell biology, immunity, genomics, diseases, and laboratory aspects of Candida species, with particular emphasis on its most prominent member, Candida albicans. The strongest chapters are those covering research aspects of these organisms. Complex subjects like the chemistry of the cell wall, host recognition and adherence, the cell biology of the yeast-hyphal transformation, and extracellular hydrolases as virulence factors in C. albicans are well summarized with clear, useful graphics and current references. The book is beautifully laid out, with a series of color plates that help describe phenotype switch variants and chromosome maps.The clinical chapters appear rather superficial for an infectious diseases clinician but may be useful to a student seeking basic material. The chapter on identification and subtyping contains information available in other sources for less than the cost of this book. A discussion of current practices in antifungal susceptibility testing of Candida species would have been helpful. Chapters 2 and 4 contain repetitious material, including photographs of C. dubliniensis. A consolidated chapter on the epidemiology of Candida infections should be considered for the next edition. The chapters covering the cell biology are most useful, either as a comprehensive overview or as a reference text for researchers and students interested in the biology of these organisms.Mary E. Brandt, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, Georgia, USA Emerg Infect Dis 8(8), 2002. Â© 2002 Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)







Harvard InteliHealth Candidiasishttp://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH?t=310...,WSIHW000|~b,*|IBS is however not an infection.


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## 17189 (Oct 7, 2005)

I have been told by my GP and hospital consultant that I have IBS and I think that doctors call any condition 'IBS' that they can't see or cure. IBS is really a broadly used term for bowel problems these days used by a lot of doctors.No I wasn't saying that IBS is Candida. The Candida has caused IBS like symptoms.I think it's a shame that Dr Dahlman has to be 'knocked' for what he has done to help people. My doctor and consultant didn't spot I had Candida and they are both qualied in medicine!Following Dr Dahlman's programme did improve my symptoms immensely and game me some quality of life. It was one of his patients that e-mailed me asking if I had done the CDSA test via Dr Dahlman and that's how I found out about it.I will certainly look into GSE. Thanks for the info.


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## 13693 (Oct 17, 2005)

Eric,If candida is not a factor - explain why the people above have obtained dramatic relief from their IBS symptoms by following anti-candida treatments.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

The diet tends to eliminate all the major IBS dietary triggers.It is unknown if the various herbal, etc. stuff people take to get rid of Candida (as most of this is not done by medical doctors so the treatments do not include medications proven to get rid of Candida, just various dietary supplement that may or may not have any number of various effects) may also have benefit for IBSers independant of whether or not they actually have Candida or the treatments actually treat Candida.K.


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## 22150 (Oct 12, 2005)

My stomach pains disappeared after stopping eating bread recently. I tried this because in the summer I had a yeast infection which triggered dreadful bladder/ibs problems.However last night I had a temporary setback after eating half a pack of very sugary carmel biscuits - on come the stomach spasms etc.I know that sugar is very bad for yeast problems.I have eaten some cakes lately and flatbread with yeast but was ok. I think that excess is the key to bringing on these attacks.A few weeks back I mentioned to the doctor that I thought the yeast was still hanging around and she said that everyone had it a little bit and the body naturally took care of it. I didn't know that.


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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

Yeast is opportunistic, like opportunistic bacteria. Most people have some candida in their system w/ no problem. Like my bacteria. But when it's allowed to overgrow, it cause problems along the intestinal wall...We all have a bit of E Coli for ex, it's normal...but if the bad guys are allowed to take over when the body's probiotic population is decreased, they do in spades.Things like high chronic stress, antibiotics(my case), & other medications lower your body's ability to keep the opportunistic yeast/bacteria in small numbers...like they do in a healthier body.Btw, we're in good company w/ this topic...java script:AL_get(this, 'jour', 'Eur J Gastroenterol Hepatol.');Jan 2005"Yeast metabolic products, yeast antigens and yeasts as possible triggers for irritable bowel syndrome.""Many patients with irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) are disillusioned by the lack of efficacy of treatments and suffer from numerous symptoms not covered by the Rome criteria for IBS, as the current empirical treatment regimens fail to address these persistent debilitating 'IBS associated symptoms'. These symptoms are similar to other symptom complexes like chronic fatigue and the so-called 'candida syndrome', and many seek help from alternative medicine. The possible role of Candida and yeasts in non-immune compromised individuals is disputed and is the subject of this review. Even if the involvement of yeasts in the aetiology of IBS still remains unclear, there is increasing evidence for yeasts being able to cause IBS-symptoms in sensitized patients via Candida products, antigens and cross-antigens. But more research is needed before antifungal treatment can be recommended as a first line treatment for IBS."Pub Med


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## 13693 (Oct 17, 2005)

Before I say anything more - I am the member formerly knowwn as meckle - my password got screwedd up somehow and I ahven't ahd the chacne to fix the account.I would point out that GSE has the same mechanism of action as some of the pharmaceutical antifungals - inhibition of the Cytochrome P450 pathway (3A4 subpathway I think).Leaving that aside - neither yourself nor Eric seem to be denying that some combination of anti-candida diet and anti-candida herbals can lead to improvement in symptoms in IBS-sufferers. That being so - I'd like to know what research groups are investigating these effects, what distinguished gastro-enterologists are performing trials, what drugs companies are trying to find some new prodcuts out of it ?I put it to you that these measures are helping people - regardless of the mechanisms of action and that jumping up and down and having a hissy-fit everytime candida is mentioned and attacking people who this approach helpful and wish to discuss it is counter-productive.Furthermore, I would like to point out that in scientific circles there are often disagreements of opinion (let me clarify this: in non-medical fields this is true - in medicine it seems if you disagree with the status quo you are a heretic - but then medicine is NOT science). Fundamental to scientific process is the freedom to ahve differeing opinions.Finally, here is my theory for IBS. Whilst we constantly hear that IBS is a functional disorder (and I agree) - it is very clear to me that most actually don't seem to understand what "functional disorder" means. It means:1) there is no cause - this bit most get.2) there may be many contributory causes. this bit no-one seems to get including the "experts"NOTE: I did not say many different causes - as in different causes in different people - I said many contributory causes - meaning different small problems in the one person leading to the functional disorder.Now - I don't mean to insult anyone. the only reason I get this is cause I once took a course in something called "control theory". Its all about feedback mechanisms, feedforward mechanisms and the systems in which they exist. Such controlled systems can fall "out of control" in surprising circumstances - little changes that you would not expect to mess things up can. There is only so much preturbance a system can effectively deal with before it goes "out of control" - or in other words develops a "functional disorder". I use to use this stuff in my old process engineering job.What does this have to do with IBS - well the gut/body is full of control systems and feed-back feed-forward mechnisms. The brain-gut axis is such an example, gut-flora balance and peristaltic coorindation could also be viewed in this way. My basic point is little changes in many factors can contribute to push this complex system out of control - i.e. cause a functional disorder. The disorder is not caused by a single biological cause - but by small perturbances pushing the system out of control.So the "cause" of an individual's IBS could be almost any combination of little things affecting the gut. To use myself as an example: I had candida problems - secondary to mercury poisoning, possibly with a viral infection too - I haven't arranged tests for that yet, and a couple of other secondary problems (pancreatic insufficiency, liver probs etc). By addressing each of these problems I no-longer have IBS (I do have some gut upset - this is due to drug bound mercury excretion via the bile - it gives me candida flare-ups as candida can metabolise mercury whereas "good" flora can't - candida has a competitive advantage).I believe this is why treating candida works for some and not others. I believe this is why the studies you quote don't find positive correlations - cos candida is only one of many possible contributory causes and thus you won't find a postive correlation when you look for it. By implication - you also won't find any postive correlations with other potential cause (although it is possbile some are more correlated than others). I believe this is why some things helps one IBSer and not others.So that's my theory. Eric, anyone else - feel free to show it to your experts - just give me credit if you do !!!


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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

Hey Meckle...glad you're "Stillhere"









> quote:candida is only one of many possible contributory causes


That's been my point...guess it wasn't clear...I know candida isn't what triggers my IBS symptoms, because I took the CDSA test. It showed candida w/i normal ranges, but c. freundii was off the chart...We all have a diff path that led us here. And luckily my IBS is under control w/ a combo of supplements that works for me. Wouldn't work for everyone.Talissa


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

jenn ygave up diary and other foods that could have been major triggers for her and started robiotics, which might helps some IBSers.GSE: It may help because of its anti histimine effects and also working on "prostaglandins, may benefit from the extract's ability to block the release of this pain- and inflammation-causing chemical. "Both of which are involved in IBS, especially those that developed IBS after an infection.Non of the above because of candida. Eliminating sugar, which can cause gas via normal bacteria and then gas pockects putting pressure on sensitive nerves in IBS, so it makes sense a lower sugar diet can help IBS. I have personally seen here on the bb Dr Dahlman hurt people, as well as supply extremely inaccurate information!!!!!Its is not entirley true anymore that the experts have not found any of the cause/causes of IBS.There are abnormalities seen in IBS and they don't have anything to do with candida.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Non gi symptoms and IBSIBS Beyond the Bowel:The Meaning of Co-existing Medical Problemshttp://ibsgroup.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/71210261/m/86610974


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Talissa in that abstract you posted in regards to candida as a possible trigger.


> quote:antigens and cross-antigens


What cells are involved in this reaction?


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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

Eric, is this a test?







When any pathogen over-populates, they then have the potential to aggrevate & activate HISTAMINE cells. Specifically, if memory serves, H1, H2, & H4, but not H3--the experts aren't sure why...These then affect other intestinal cells & things go wrong, gi speaking...D &/or C, food intolerances, etc...And yes, I don't know if grapefruit seed extract is helping me due to it's ability to kill my gram negative bacteria(proven), or its ability to down grade intestinal inflammation, or both...but I'm thinking both, because I've been taking antibacterials which didn't help to this degree....


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Eric, is this a test?perhaps.







Histimine is the chemical, mast cells are the important cells on this and a reaction. What do we know about mast cells and IBS?


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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

This could be fun Eric, but I'm going to try to peel myself away the pc now...today was my email catch up day...fun.You can share your mast cell info w/ the class...But real quick, if anyone's interested in more specific info/research on GSE, here's this interesting paper:http://pubwww.srce.hr/acphee/24304.pdf(Antimicrobial activity of grapefruit seed)...the html link wouldn't work...


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## 13693 (Oct 17, 2005)

Eric - you missed the point. I wasn't talking about candida, merely using it as an example as something that could preturb the system.I agree - anti-candida treatments can be harmful. It made me jaundiced. I've since found out why. I was on high garlic for its antifungal properties - but it turns out garlic as a high-thiol food mobilises mercury in the body. So I got jaundiced as my liver was trying to eliminate all the mercury bouncing around my bloodstream.


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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

Eric,I can't help myself...Histamine cells are CELLS & I'm talking about histamine receptors when I say histamine cells if you want to split hairs, & "Histamine is known as a regulator of gastrointestinal (GI) functions such as gastric acid production, intestinal motility and mucosal ion secretion."and..."Analysis of endoscopic biopsies from patients with food allergy and irritable bowel syndrome revealed significantly elevated H1R and H2R mRNA levels compared to controls."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...042&query_hl=37


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

They have been studying masts cells for a while now with an electron microscope in IBS. IN PI IBS they have found an increase of mast cells.with an electron miscroscope you can see candida trigger the mast cell, you can see a lot of things trigger mast cells. But it can't cause chronic visceral hypersensvity. Mast cells hava wide variety of roles, but one is the allergic reaction to chemicals, food preservatives, drugs, toxins, and bacteria. Another is to help fight infection. Another is a direct connection in the HPA axis and the bodies stress responce system which can degranulate them without a pathogen.This is also a connection between IC and IBS and bladder problems and IBS.Mast Cell Activation & Neurogenic Inflammation:http://www.ichelp.org/featurearticles/Trac...CausesOfIC.htmlIts also a part of neurogenic inflammation via the hpa axis and mast cells in the gut. Neurogenic Inflammation in Chronic Pain Conditions http://ibsgroup.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/43110261/m/957107871But the inflammation of mast cells in IBS cannot be a biologic marker in IBS. They also now know that the 5ht3 receptor in IBS via the 5-HT release from enterochromaffin (EC) cells which initiates peristaltic, secretory, vasodilatory, vagal and nociceptive reflexes and communicates to the brain is not functioning properly. No single pathogen has been found to cause IBS, in fact multiple ones can lead to the development of IBS.


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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

But I know how centrally imp mast cells are to our "IBS" condition...but they are involved in immune responses as well...don't forget...NOW I'm leaving...I really mean it...Tal>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..I finish my post & see yours from the same time...guess you remembered...







my bad. VERY interesting info Eric, thx...


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## 20884 (Aug 26, 2005)

Eric said:


> quote:Also Candida, cannot cause chronic pain.


*I cannot agree on that.*The yeast OVERGROWTH condition is called CANDIDIASIS. This new fungal form of yeast develops rhizoids (long, burrowing legs) that hook into and can penetrate the mucus membranes in the intestinal tract and cause serious bowel pain.http://www.candidasupport.org/index.htmlIT is from a single cell yeast to mycelial fungi where there are many yeasts sticked to each other.Now when you eat any antifungal type of food and medicine , this chain breaks causing severe cramping, severe pain and nausea


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:The yeast OVERGROWTH condition is called CANDIDIASIS. This new fungal form of yeast develops rhizoids (long, burrowing legs) that hook into and can penetrate the mucus membranes in the intestinal tract


None of this has anything to do with IBS, but you probably knew that.


> quote:I cannot agree on that.


People who do have intestinal candidiasis are already sick. Even if they did have abdominal pain, they probably wouldn't notice.


> quote:Now when you eat any antifungal type of food


There are antifungal foods?


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

FYI"Visceral Sensations and Brain-Gut MechanismsBy: Emeran A. Mayer, M.D., Professor of Medicine, Physiology and Psychiatry; Director, Center for Neurovisceral Sciences & Women's Health, David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA"There has been an initial enthusiasm for the concept that events which cause tissue irritation within the gut, such as mild inflammatory changes or repetitive contractions could sensitize either the peripheral nerve fibers located outside the brain and spinal cord, or the sensory pathways in the spinal cord and cause a long lasting or permanent hypersensitive state. While there is little evidence that even chronic inflammation of the gut as it occurs in inflammatory bowel disorders produces long lasting changes in the perception of visceral pain, repetitive mechanical stimulation, for example of the sigmoid colon, is able to induce prolonged rectal hypersensitivity in IBS patients but not in healthy control subjects or patients with inflammatory bowel disorders."http://www.aboutibs.org/Publications/VisceralSensations.html


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

FYI"From UNC "Digest" with permission.Emeran Mayer, MD, visited the UNCCenter for Functional GI & MotilityDisorders on August 30-31, 2004. Heis Professor of Medicine and Directorof the Center for NeurovisceralSciences & Womenï¿½s Health, DavidGeffen School of Medicine at UCLA,and the following is his report on hisvisit to UNC."During my recent visit at the GI Division at UNC, I had theopportunity to talk with several key investigators at the Centerand to discuss possible research collaborations, in particularin the area of brain imaging. I was impressed by the depthand breadth of research performed at the Center and greatlyenjoyed the interactions with investigators and staff. My visitincluded a presentation to the Division on Gastroenterologyand Hepatology titled ï¿½Progress in IBS Biology: One Diseaseor Many Mechanisms Leading to Similar Symptoms.ï¿½Functional GI disorders, including IBS, are currently defined byGI symptom-based criteria, yet every experienced clinicianis aware of the multiplicity of symptoms and complaints thatmost IBS patients report when asked appropriately. Someof these symptoms may be attributed to other parts of theGI tract (such as heartburn or chest pain) while others mayattributed to other organs (urinary urgency, pelvic pain) orthe skeletomotor system (headaches, muscle and joint pain).To explain such ï¿½co-morbidities,ï¿½ several theories have beenproposed: (1) IBS as defined by the Rome criteria is a diseaseof the intestine, but can co-occur with other syndromes.( 2) The GI tract related symptoms are just one of severalpossible somatic manifestations of disorders that primarilyimpact affect and mood (anxiety and depression). ( 3) IBS isa reflection of an altered perception of so-called homeostaticafferent signals from the GI tract and resulting alteredautonomic responses. In my presentation, I briefly addressedthe following two hypotheses:Is IBS a disease related to inappropriate immune activationof the intestine?Is IBS a somatic manifestation of psychiatric disease?Evidence was reviewed showing that currently availabledata does not support the immune activation hypothesis. Inthe absence of altered perceptual responses to a chronically,mildly inflamed intestine, typical IBS symptoms would be quiteunlikely. Similarly, current evidence does not support that IBSsymptoms only occur in patients with depression or anxiety,and that IBS symptoms in the normal population are generallynot associated with DSM-4 diagnoses. As an alternative, thefollowing hypothesis was proposed:IBS reflects an alteration in the perception of and responseto homeostatic feelings."http://ibsgroup.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/71210261/m/51210084"Evidence was reviewed showing that currently availabledata does not support the immune activation hypothesis. Inthe absence of altered perceptual responses to a chronically,mildly inflamed intestine, typical IBS symptoms would be quiteunlikely."


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## 20564 (Nov 28, 2005)

If someone were suffering from IBS symptoms due to a yeast infection would taking one of the pills that cures yeast infections in other parts of the body cure it? Just curious because last year I had thrush (a yeast infection in my mouth) and had to take medication.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:If someone were suffering from IBS symptoms due to a yeast infection would taking one of the pills that cures yeast infections in other parts of the body cure it?


Yeast infections aren't a cause IBS symptoms, so the answer is moot.


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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

2005 OctClinical Gastroenterology & Hepatology: (the official clinical practice journal of the American Gastroenterology Association)"A controlled study of colonic immune activity and beta7+ blood T lymphocytes in patients with irritable bowel syndrome.""...CONCLUSIONS: Patients with IBS exhibit an enhanced immune activity in the gut and an increased frequency of integrin beta7+ T lymphocytes in the peripheral blood. *Our data further support the hypothesis of IBS being at least partially an inflammatory disorder.*"http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...043&query_hl=10


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## 22150 (Oct 12, 2005)

In reply to the question about yeast medication helping ibs - I took 4 lots of treatment in the summer and my ibs got worse.Only thing that has improved this has been avoiding bread and having muesli daily - I'm starting to feel sane for once.


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## 20564 (Nov 28, 2005)

I wasn't trying to imply that yeast causes IBS in all or even most people. But I've read in several different places that severe yeast infections in the intestinal track can cause C and D. I don't think that yeast is the cause for IBS in most people,myself included, but isn't it possible that it is in a few? The truth is we don't know what causes IBS, and I think every avenue is worth investigating.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Typically to get serious overgrowth of yeast in the intestines you would probably also have some immune system problem. So some people can have problems, but there mostly likely HAS to be something going on in addition to IBS.The problem is that like a lot of legit medical problems that occur in a small subset of people Candida is one of things that has been co-opted to be the explaination for everyone that has any symptom of anything. There always is something that is used to explain to the "worried well" all the normal symptoms of daily living. Some people make a lot of money promoting these co-opted medical problems and selling people a lot of sometimes very expensive stuff they don't need for a problem they cannot have.Yep, in someone with AIDS or undergoing chemotherapy or who had a transplant, etc. yeast can cause intestinal problems. The problem is that many sites of questionable value use Candida to explain every symptom for everyone. (or some other fad diagnosis that is big, I'm suprised sometimes that Candida hasn't run it's course with this, maybe nothing new is available to be co-opted)K.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

" yeast causes IBS in all or even most people"Yeast does not cause IBS in any people."The truth is we don't know what causes IBS"This is no longer totally accurate. They have found physical abnormalities in IBS.You will see this more in the future on more up to date IBS information.For one the 5ht 3 receptor is not funcioning properly.Also IBS is a brain gut condition for a lot of reasons, but one is because of pain. all pain is processed in the brain.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Some of this info is slightly dated and some has been more confirmed."Etiology and PathophysiologyTo date, three of the most important mechanisms that contribute to the development of IBS include an altered visceral perception (pain) in the gut, disturbed GI motility (resulting in cramps, diarrhea, and/or constipation), and psychosocial factors (such as chronic stress, anxiety, and depression). Other significant factors implicated in the etiology of IBS include recent GI infection, inflammation of the GI mucosa, and alteration in the intestinal ecosystem (De Schryver et al. 2000; Talley et al. 2002). Great strides have been made regarding the pathophysiology of IBS during the past several years. Numerous studies have demonstrated that IBS is characterized by visceral hypersensitivity, suggesting that patients with IBS may have more sensitive pain receptors in the GI tract than age-matched controls. These studies strongly suggest that alteration in communication between the nervous system and the immune system in the GI tract may trigger a series of events that give rise to chronic changes in visceral sensitivity, causing the affected individual to have highly sensitive pain receptors in the GI tract. Animal studies have demonstrated that gas in the bowel stretching the bowel wall causes psychological stress and can also cause an increase in the sensitization of visceral receptors, which results in a lower threshold for pain (Delvaux 1999). Researchers exploring the causes of IBS, fibromyalgia, and the chronic fatigue syndrome have proposed that the cause may be due to a neuroendocrine-immune system dysfunction that is characterized by a complex integration of pathways that connect the nervous, endocrine, and immune systems to the GI tract (Mayer et al. 2001a, 2001b; Ringel et al. 2001; Chang et al. 2002). This connection is, in part, mediated by the neurotransmitter serotonin (Goldberg et al. 1996). The relationship is particularly interesting because these disorders often coexist, and the likelihood of a common etiology cannot be overlooked (Whitehead et al. 2002). Monga et al. (1997) discovered that women with IBS have lower bladder and esophageal sensory thresholds, suggesting that there may be an underlying smooth muscle hyperreactivity disorder that is related to the autonomic nervous system. This explains the increased incidence of coexisting IBS with an irritable bladder condition and gastroesophageal reflux disease (GERD). The hypothesis deserves further investigation. Regardless of whether it is diarrhea predominant or constipation predominant, IBS is frequently associated with depression and anxiety, and the symptoms of IBS may be exacerbated by stress (Chang et al. 1997). Studies have been inconclusive regarding which comes first, IBS or the psychological stressors. To date, it is believed that either can come first; however, IBS can be exacerbated by psychological stressors in either instance (Yehuda et al. 2002). A focus of attention among researchers has also been on the pathways that connect the nervous system and the GI tract. It has been established that activities in the GI tract such as inflammation, infection, hypermotility, or changes in visceral sensitivity affect the nervous system. Conversely, psychosocial stressors such as stress, anxiety, and depression that manifest in the central nervous system (CNS) are transmitted to the bowel by various pathways. This gut-brain connection has provided a basis for new therapeutic approaches to IBS (Monnikes et al. 2001). Several studies have suggested that infection and inflammation in the GI tract cause changes in the intestinal physiology that can persist after the infection and inflammation have resolved. The altered intestinal lining that is left after the inflammation has resolved is believed to trigger a neuroimmune interaction that may be implemented in the pathogenesis of some IBS patients (Yehuda et al. 2002). Researchers have found that cells that mediate inflammation have been found very close to nerve endings in the intestinal lining of animals (Tornblom et al. 2002). Inflammation in the GI mucosa has been found to coexist with a degeneration of intestinal nerves of IBS patients (Tornblom et al. 2002).These findings have been implemented in the pathogenesis of this syndrome and provide a basis for further investigation. Another discovery still under investigation is that symptoms are possibly mediated through partial degranulation of mast cells (mediators of inflammation) in the bowel mucosa (Bodemar et al. 2001).Yang et al. (1997) found an increase in mast cells in the bowel mucosa (specifically in the cecum and ileojejunal junction) of animals with IBS. These mast cells were often located very close to unmyelinated nerves, suggesting that mast cell stabilizers or the antagonism of mast cell products may have potential therapeutic applications in IBS (Yang et al. 1997). The pathways that connect the brain and the gut are mediated by intrinsic neuroreceptors called 5-hydroxytryptamine-3(5-HT3) and 5-hydroxytryptamine-4 (5-HT4). These serotonin receptors are involved in both the modulation of visceral pain and regulation of GI motility that cause diarrhea , and constipation and urgency. Because patients with IBS have both hypermotility of the smooth muscle of the bowel and hypersensitivity to visceral pain, a new class of therapeutic agents targets the modulation of these serotonin receptors in the bowel (Goldberg et al. 1996; Sanger et al. 1998; Houghton et al. 1999). This new class of serotonin receptor medications will be discussed later in the protocol. "http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcl-157.shtml


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Another aspect of this, they don't study IBS in a vacuum. They study the 21 functional gi disorders that can and do overlap and maybe connected to some of the same causes, as well as FM and CFS ect..They also study colon cancer and inflammatory bowel conditions and there connections to bacteria and inflammation. testing has become much more sophisticated then even five years ago. IN IBS they are looking at cells with electron miscroscopes.Mast cell







Probably because in the past, not much was known to cause IBS the theory of candida took hold, but now they know much much more about IBS and the connections and can see real physical problems.In Post infectious IBS which can develop into IBS, a bacteria or a virus can intiate the start of it.Hence"Several studies have suggested that infection and inflammation in the GI tract cause changes in the intestinal physiology that can persist after the infection and inflammation have resolved. The altered intestinal lining that is left after the inflammation has resolved is believed to trigger a neuroimmune interaction that may be implemented in the pathogenesis of some IBS patients (Yehuda et al. 2002). "But here the intial pathogen has been resolved.Much more work on PI IBS has been done since then. like this which is talking about PI IBS. They don't fully consider PI IBS complete full blown IBS, but a subgroup.http://ibsgroup.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/71210261/m/120109081But at the conclusion there, you can see further work on serotonin and histimine. Hence the ec cells and mast cells.But work on serotonin and the 5ht 3 receptor is close done and its abnormal, but they are not totally sure why yet. The majority of IBS pateints show altered serotonin dysregulation.This chemical has been implicated in IBS for quite some time now and is very important to signal to the brain sensations and pain.Pain or discomfort is a must for an IBS diagnoses."About chronic candidiasisAn overgrowth in the gastrointestinal tract of the usually benign yeast (or fungus) Candida albicans has been suggested as the origin of a complex medical syndrome called chronic candidiasis, or yeast syndrome.1 2Purported symptoms of chronic candidiasis are fatigue, allergies, immune system malfunction, depression, chemical sensitivities, and digestive disturbances.3 4 Conventional medical authorities do acknowledge the existence of a chronic Candida infection that affects the whole body and is sometimes called â€œchronic disseminated candidiasis.â€œ5 However, this universally accepted disease is both uncommon, and decidedly more narrow in scope, than the so-called Yeast Syndromeâ€"a condition believed by some to be quite common, particularly in people with a history of long-term antibiotic use. The term â€œchronic candidiasisâ€ as used in this article refers to the as yet unproven Yeast Syndrome."http://www.winafranchise.com/Notes/1186005.htmlAs has been mentioned here recently C-diff is a real problem with antibiotic use.The bacteria levels in the gut are somewhat transient, so species might go up and down somewhat because of foods stress, meds ect..I have talked to quite a few lab people who do colonoscopies about this and they have never seen "yeast syndrome" but have seen "disseminated candidiasis" in aids patients and cancer patients where the immune system was highly compormised.but major research on IBS and gi disorders with sophisticated testing looking at everything, no single pathogen has been found in IBSers.


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## 17189 (Oct 7, 2005)

Have been taking Grapefruit Seed Extract for about 10 days. Have been getting some die-off symptoms which were a bit bad so I have reduced the daily dosage, otherwise too much die-off is difficult for the body to cope with.I am also taking Probiotics, Digestive Aid, Flaxseed and Milk Thistle.I am on a fairly strict diet and haven't eaten any chocolate for three weeks! I have also lost 7 pounds.'D' attacks are now very infrequent, which makes a nice change. The indegestion and gas has reduced considerably too. I may start to feel a bit better in a few weeks with any luck.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Just fyiHow Clean Should Your Colon Be? http://www.acsh.org/factsfears/newsID.194/news_detail.asp


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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

Hi Jenny, Just wanted to let you know I'm having some delayed die-off reaction too I think--got my first cold in years. (Am sort of glad because once kel said here that having no colds/flu for years is a sign of a depressed immune system...)You did the right thing, what everyone says is best, to reduce your dosage when having die-off...I've added in more anti-virals to keep this cold at bay & zinc & extra Vit C...BMs are good, infrequent(just am) & normal, except still swollen from the fiber...tried going off the fiber but can't yet...still hoping.Am thinking of adding in the B Infantis(Align) that peeps are having success with...just taking it 3 hours away from the GSE.Let's keep each other up-to-date along with Took20???Talissa


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## 17189 (Oct 7, 2005)

Have been feeling very hot and thirsty with flu-like symptoms and headaches. Have had a couple of nasty and VERY smelly 'D' attacks (sorry for being graphic) which I have put down to elimination of toxins. I have found quite a bit of info about die-off symptoms on the internet, and what I am currently experiencing is quite normal. I have a sauna at home so I am using this each day to sweat the toxins out and have increased the Milk Thistle to help the liver with the removal of toxins.Have now lost 9 pounds without even trying!


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## David LA (Dec 21, 2005)

Hi Eric,-Remember me?? I can see you haven't changed your views on IBS & Overgrowths of Candida & Bacteria. But..this might be of interest to you. Remember Dr. Pimentel the Gastroenterologist over at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center? In his new book" A New IBS Solution"he really explans in great detail why bacteriain the small intestines is responsible for 80% of all IBS cases. Maybe the other 20% is the Candida?? Anyway..its an interesting book & its available on Amazon if you want to check it out. Is Flux still around???


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

I am very familar with his work.I also believe, he "believes" and diagnoses every IBS with sibo, where as other researchers diagnose people with sibo as sibo.Candida and sibo are not the same problem. And candida in the terms being used here is NOT recognized as a real medical condition. This is new""small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (as detected with breath testing) ""Another diagnostic test that has increasingly gained interest in this setting is the breath test to detect small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO). It has been proposed that many IBS patients have symptoms due to the presence of SIBO, as measured by the lactulose breath test, which has been detected in as much as 78% to 84% of patients.[39,40] Harris and colleagues[41] presented a retrospective chart review assessing the presence of GI symptoms, in particular those associated with IBS, in patients referred for glucose hydrogen breath tests for SIBO. They predicted that lactulose breath testing overpredicted the actual prevalence of SIBO in IBS. Glucose hydrogen breath testing has a sensitivity of 75% for SIBO[42] compared with the sensitivity of 39% with lactulose breath testing for the "double-peak" phenomenon characteristic of SIBO.[43] There has been considerable debate regarding the accuracy of the lactulose breath test compared with small bowel aspirates to detect the number of bacteria, which has been considered the gold standard for diagnosing SIBO.[44] Of the 182 patient charts reviewed, 113 patients (88 women; mean age, 58 years) met the Rome II criteria for IBS (IBS-D, 56%; IBS-C, 32%; and IBS-A, 12%).[41]* Only 11% of these patients had a positive breath test for SIBO. The study authors concluded that etiologic factors other than SIBO are likely involved in the pathophysiology of IBS.* Despite the standard use of the Rome II diagnostic criteria for IBS, the prevalence of SIBO in these patients appears to vary widely depending on the patient population and type of methodology used."http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/517739Again, they basically altready have the mechanism for d and c and d/c already.FYI from Dr Drossman also"Dear Shawn, I do feel that the issue of bacterial overgrowth is an important considerations in IBS, and these authors have gone a long way to advance this area of investigation and raise awareness of bacterial overgrowth as a possible player in IBS. It kind of relates to other work being done in the area of post-infectious IBS and altered mucosal immunity in subsets of IBS. However, there is some disagreement within the community with regard to the prevalence in patients with IBS, these authors claiming up to 80% and others finding far less by standard methods. Another issue of concern is that *explaining bacterial * *Their work should be * You should keep in mind that all scientists will from time to time try to extend their data into understanding other aspects of a condition, but the checks and balances within medicine lead to common acceptance when there is confirmation from other groups and more conclusive evidence. That has not happenned as of yet but remains an area of interest in the field.Doug"


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## knothappy (Jul 31, 1999)

I am beginning to think that there has to be something..candida or some kind of bacteria that is causing IBS... I do not buy this crapping your head off and there is nothing wrong with you and nothing is causing it..live with it thing>>> Somewhere in your bowel is inflammation, bacteria, yeast, they just are picking up on it. so according to the MD's it does not exist.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

There are abnormalities, but a lot of people don't understand them. Look through the news and research section.Check out reliable IBS websites.The 5ht3 receptor in the gut is malfunctioning. That they know for sure. That malfunction causes d and c and d/c."But it turns out that irritable bowel syndrome, like depression, is at least in part a function of changes in the serotonin system. In this case, it is too much serotonin rather than too little.In a healthy person, after serotonin is released into the gut and initiates an intestinal reflex, it is whisked out of the bowel by a molecule known as the serotonin transporter, or SERT, found in the cells that line the gut wall.People with irritable bowel syndrome do not have enough SERT, so they wind up with too much serotonin floating around, causing diarrhea. The excess serotonin then overwhelms the receptors in the gut, shutting them down and causing constipation."http://ibsgroup.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/71210261/m/369100861"For example, there is a subgroup of patients, called "post-infectious IBS" who appear to respond to an enteric infection such as campylobactor jejuni with an increased inflammatory cell response (22). This is associated with activating enterochromaffin cells to produce 5HT, and CD3 cells to produce cytokines, which in turn leads to enhanced motility and lowered visceral sensation thresholds (22;23). But microscopic inflammation cannot be a diagnostic marker for IBS because it does not typically produce pain in those who have it. All patients with active celiac disease have microscopic inflammation, but a large proportion do not have abdominal pain, and patients with ulcerative colitis who also have microscopic inflammation when compared to patients with IBS appear to have higher pain thresholds (24). In individuals with these disorders, there may be central nervous system counter-regulatory measures responding to the peripheral pain/inflammatory processes that increase pain thresholds. With regard to IBS, the gut-related effects of microscopic inflammation may be only one component of a dysfunctional brain-gut system."http://www.romecriteria.org/reading1.html


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

One thing is for sure however, Candida is NOT the cause of IBS!!!!


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## 20884 (Aug 26, 2005)

Special Quote by Flux:


> quote: There are antifungal foods?


These are antifungal foodsnionGarlicGingerYogurt home madeegg yolkQuote By Flux:


> quote: People who do have intestinal candidiasis are already sick. Even if they did have abdominal pain, they probably wouldn't notice.


*What is the meaning of that?*


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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

Good Q, from india...think you'll get an answer??Eric said: "One thing is for sure however, Candida is NOT the cause of IBS!!!!"...Beware of those who think they have all the answers...esp about IBS, a condition that is still being studied w/ much still unknown.Remember:


> quote:Even if the involvement of yeasts in the aetiology of IBS still remains unclear, there is increasing evidence for yeasts being able to cause IBS-symptoms


 Yeast metabolic products, yeast antigens and yeasts as possible triggers for irritable bowel syndrome.


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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

Btw, I don't think Candida could be the cause for all IBSrs...There are many bacteria that can also cause IBS symptoms that are antibiotic resistant too. And also there's the inflammatino that can continue after pathogen populations are eradicated...both dysbiosis & inflammation can affect the nerves, histamine, serotonin, etc...It's all a mystery still. No one has all the answers.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:These are antifungal foodsnionGarlicGingerYogurt home madeegg yolk


How are these antifungal? Is it trying to posit that one who had thrush could ingest these and somehow be cured? Spices have antibacterial (and probably antifungal) properties, but these are probably at best preventative (to a point) and work in the gut before the body has processed them.


> quote:Quote By Flux: quote: People who do have intestinal candidiasis are already sick. Even if they did have abdominal pain, they probably wouldn't notice. What is the meaning of that?


Just what it says. You don't get intestinal candidiasis unless you are really are sick with something that significantly impairs your immune system. A little (additional) abdominal pain isn't probably going to make much difference to a person in that situation.


> quote:don't think Candida could be the cause for all IBSrs...


It isn't the cause for *any* IBSers.


> quote:both dysbiosis


Nor is this.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Yeast metabolic products, yeast antigens and yeasts as possible triggers for irritable bowel syndrome.These symptoms are similar to other symptom complexes like chronic fatigue and the *so-called 'candida syndrome'*, *and many seek help from alternative medicine.* *The possible role of Candida and yeasts in non-immune compromised individuals is disputed* and is the subject of this review. *But more research is needed before antifungal treatment can be recommended as a first line treatment for IBS.*What about the possiblity of killing vital bacteria in the gut while targeting so called candida yeast?"there is increasing evidence for yeasts being able to cause IBS-symptoms in sensitized patients via Candida products, antigens and cross-antigens."antigens and cross antigens, effect the mast cells, just like a food allergy degrandulates the mast cell. But that isn't IBS, although mast cell degrandulation is involved in IBS, more so in PI IBS and they are looking at IBS in general now.Symptoms discriminate irritable bowel syndrome from organic gastrointestinal diseases and food allergy.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsumThis very detail PI IBS paper doesn't mention candida at all.Post-infectious Irritable Bowel SyndromePosted 12/08/2005Robin Spiller; Eugene Campbell Clinical FeaturesImportance of Psychiatric FeaturesRole of SerotoninRole of Inflammatory CytokinesRole of Mast CellsEvidence of Chronic Inflammation in Irritable Bowel SyndromeAnimal Models of Post-infective Irritable Bowel SyndromeAnti-inflammatory Effect of ProbioticsAnti-inflammatory Treatments in Irritable Bowel SyndromeConclusionhttp://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/518355?src=mpI also think its odd that out of the 500 or more gut bacteria, candida is alway the culprit, even though no one doing colonoscopies or using electron microscopes or legit stool testing has found major overgrowths of it, nor does it show up in blood work an important matter if it enter the blood stream from gut permeability.It is possible however that transient bacteria could once in a while trigger the gut. Like a cold can or leftovers. A lot of things can cause some symptoms similar to IBS, but not the cluster of IBS symptoms and non gi symptoms.As the artilce states much more research is needed before they recommend treatments for antifungul, but that doesn't seem to make a difference to promoting it by the alternative community as the cause of IBS."Post-infectious IBS patients may differ from IBS patients in general in having a low-level of intestinal inflammation. Work in animal models, and detection of low-grade inflammation in intestinal biopsies combined with markers of intestinal inflammation such as faecal calprotectin all indicate a strong possibility that persisting inflammation after the acute infection may be important in the pathogenesis of post-infectious IBS."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsumOf course in PI IBS they know about some of the bacteria, parasites or even viruses that then trigger PI IBS. These are serious enteric infections that inflammed the intestines and when the intestines become inflammed there are IMPORTANT CELL Changes seen.Way back in 92 they looked. Postgrad Med J. 1992 Jun;68(800):453-4. Related Articles, Links Comment in: Postgrad Med J. 1993 Jan;69(807):80.The role of faecal Candida albicans in the pathogenesis of food-intolerant irritable bowel syndrome.Middleton SJ, Coley A, Hunter JO.Department of Gastroenterology, Addenbrooke's Hospital, Cambridge, UK.Candida albicans was sought in stool samples from 38 patients with irritable bowel syndrome and 20 healthy controls. In only three patients with irritable bowel syndrome was C. albicans discovered and these patients had either recently received antibiotics or the stool sample had been delayed more than 24 hours in transit.* C. albicans was isolated from none of the control stool samples. We conclude that C. albicans is not involved in the aetiology of the irritable bowel syndrome.*PMID: 1437926Almost no major research on it being the cause was done after 92. IF you search pubmed there is almost nothing.Talissa, perhaps you could point out to me the research and hard data on the pathogenetic significance of an intestinal reservoir of yeasts and how the toxins effect IBS and cause the symptom cluster of IBSers?If you could show me where your getting the information from an accuate source that would help or are you putting seperate issues all together and using scant evidence. Show us the proof of the connection and what connections there are to candida and IBS.


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## David LA (Dec 21, 2005)

Knothappy,-There ARE MD's that believe the root cause of "IBS" is caused by overgrowths of Bacteria &/or Candida..two off the top of my head are Dr. Mark Pimentel & Dr. Sherie Rogers. Dr. Pimentel's protocol is now being refered to as The Cedars-Sinai Protocol" he's a Gastroenterologist at one of the most respected Hospitals in the Country. If you would like to find out more...I know he has a new book out..called "A New IBS Solution" & is available on Amazon.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:that believe the root cause of "IBS" is caused by overgrowths of Bacteria &/or Candida..two off the top of my head are Dr. Mark Pimentel


*False*. Dr. Pimentel has *nothing* to do with Candida.


> quote:& Dr. Sherie Rogers.


Seems you're the only the one who's heard of her.


> quoter. Pimentel's protocol is now being refered to as The Cedars-Sinai Protocol" he's a Gastroenterologist at one of the most respected Hospitals in the Country.


Respected by whom? And even if true, what's the relevance?


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## David LA (Dec 21, 2005)

Flux-As usual you missed my point....Dr. Pimentel believes bacteria causes 80% of the IBS cases. Dr. Rogers believes candida causes the majority of IBS cases.The fact that you haven't heard of her meansNADA


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Dr. Pimentel believes bacteria causes 80% of the IBS caseswhy are they the only ones finding this?Are you reading the thread or just posting, because maybe you missed this or the rest of the information?"This is new""small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (as detected with breath testing) ""Another diagnostic test that has increasingly gained interest in this setting is the breath test to detect small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO). It has been proposed that many IBS patients have symptoms due to the presence of SIBO, as measured by the lactulose breath test, which has been detected in as much as 78% to 84% of patients.[39,40] Harris and colleagues[41] presented a retrospective chart review assessing the presence of GI symptoms, in particular those associated with IBS, in patients referred for glucose hydrogen breath tests for SIBO. They predicted that lactulose breath testing overpredicted the actual prevalence of SIBO in IBS. Glucose hydrogen breath testing has a sensitivity of 75% for SIBO[42] compared with the sensitivity of 39% with lactulose breath testing for the "double-peak" phenomenon characteristic of SIBO.[43] There has been considerable debate regarding the accuracy of the lactulose breath test compared with small bowel aspirates to detect the number of bacteria, which has been considered the gold standard for diagnosing SIBO.[44] Of the 182 patient charts reviewed, 113 patients (88 women; mean age, 58 years) met the Rome II criteria for IBS (IBS-D, 56%; IBS-C, 32%; and IBS-A, 12%).[41] *Only 11% of these patients had a positive breath test for SIBO. The study authors concluded that etiologic factors other than SIBO are likely involved in the pathophysiology of IBS.* Despite the standard use of the Rome II diagnostic criteria for IBS, the prevalence of SIBO in these patients appears to vary widely depending on the patient population and type of methodology used."http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/517739David, what problems are there in sibo testing?Why are different centers not coming up with the same sibo numbers in IBS and same conclusions as the Cedar group?What bugs are already known to cause PI IBS and then develop into clinical IBS. What does this really mean?


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quoter. Rogers believes candida causes the majority of IBS cases.


*Nobody* has heard of her because she has no evidence.


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## DireWeeYah (Sep 27, 2000)

I read the entire thread and learned ALMOST nothing. Well, I am dumb. But I did learn that some posters have the most severest form of IBS known as U-BS. This is related to I-BS. Both I-BS and U-BS are collectively known a WE-BS. And it is certain that Candida causes a lot of gut-BS reaction. I read it on the Internet


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## David LA (Dec 21, 2005)

Dr. Rogers believes candida causes the majority of IBS cases. FLUX:Nobody has heard of her because she has no evidence.FLUX-I realize this might be to complicated for you but if you would just type DR. Sherry Rogers in a Yahoo Search. You would see that she has authored 8-9 Health Books, lectures all over the world, was trained as a CONVENTIONAL DR.,has written hundreds of articles, has seen 1000's of patients & has helped them regain their health.... Maybe--you would realize that "NO has heard of her" is a TOTALLY REDICULOUS statement! Even for you!!I realize you have no interest in sincerely helping anyone...but maybe you can keep yourrhetoric to a minimum.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

DireWeeYah, you learned almost nothing? What did you learn here?"Dr. Rogers believes candida causes the majority of IBS cases."For her to "Believe" is one thing, but there is no proof whatsoever for candida to be the cause of IBS. Nor is she a gastroenterologist or neurogastroenterologist specializing in IBS and functional disorders and research.Can you show me a paper she has written specifically on IBS and the research she has done on IBS and functional disorders? Not a website, but a research paper?There is actually less proof now as a matter of fact then five years ago, because IBS is understood much better now then it was five years ago. They have abnormalities now for one. C-diff isn't IBS no more then candida is IBS. There can be pathogens that cause IBS type symptoms, but thats not IBS.Part of the problem here is not actually researching IBS. You seem to be looking "ONLY" for bacteria. Many people here have been that way for years here it is only bacteria. How do we know also if people have bacterial phobias? That drive their personal healthcare?Did you miss my questions Dave? David, what problems are there in sibo testing?Why are different centers not coming up with the same sibo numbers in IBS and same conclusions as the Cedar group?What bugs are already known to cause PI IBS and then develop into clinical IBS. What does this really mean?This happens over and over again, someone says candida, everyone posts about it, but no one ever shows any evidence for it.


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## Arnie W (Oct 22, 2003)

DavidLA, I typed in Sherie Rogers the other day and, of course, got nothing. Now that we have the correct spelling of her name, it is another story. I did another google search and certainly she has good credentials and I unearthed a lot of interesting info.David it appears you have improved health at present. Do you mind if I ask you what you are taking/doing in this regard and what your symptoms were/are?I've tried supplements for candida in the past and started taking another anti-fungal recently along with GSE.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

If the evidence is so good why can't they manage to get any of it published in any journal that is indexed by PubMed?Publishing lots of books is not the same as doing peer-reviewed research.If the evidence is good enough you can get it published even when it is not particularly well accepted. I know people who have done this. You just have to do better experiments.When they publish in professional peer-reviewed journals rather than lay publications and books it makes a huge difference in how their evidence is viewed.Anyone can publish a book claiming anything causes any disease they want as long as someone thinks it will sell.K.


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## Arnie W (Oct 22, 2003)

Granted, but does the following cut and paste of her credentials not give some weight to her research and theories?Sherry A Rogers, M.D., a Diplomate of the American Board of Family Practice, a Fellow of the American College of Allergy and Immunology and a Diplomate of the American Academy of Environmental Medicine, has been in private practice for over 26 years.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

The problem is a lot of people convicted of very bad health fraud often have very good looking credentials. Some pseudoscientists have some of the most impressive looking credentials. Just because you have the piece of paper on the wall doesn't mean you use it well, or for the benefit of others.I'm not sure if diplomate is the same as board certified (it may be, but usually people just say board certified if they are) but the last one you mentioned is on a list of questionable medical organizations.It is what you do with it, not that you have it that impresses me. But that is just my little old opinion on it. Your mileage may vary.K.


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## David LA (Dec 21, 2005)

Arnie-Sorry for mis-spelling her first name. Dr. Rogers typically has about a 4-5 month waiting period to see new patients & she's currently treating patients from all over the world. These are usually patients that are FED-UP with all the "experts" (G.I's & Internists)either not helping them with their symptoms or making things worst. My symptoms were typical to most people Bloating,C&D, fatigue, weight loss,...This went on for about 25 Years because every Dr. I went to said everything "looked Fine" & that I just had "IBS". After reading Dr. Rogers book "No More Heartburn" she teaches you: 1.To start thinking for yourself2.That you're your own best Dr. 3.That you don't have to continue suffering even though you've been told to "learn to live with it" "theres no cure" Blah Blah 4. She provides you with information on dozens of supplements/programs to try all focusing on eliminating your symptoms.Some of the ones that helped me were: Digestive Enzymes, Pro-biotics, Liver Formula's, Green Drinks, Sauna's & many dietary changes.Its not an easy road...you have to be determined & focused to get better. You have to be prepared to experiment with different combinations of supplements. What worked great for me, may not be as effective for you. Once you start feeling better....this will give you incredible motivation to keep going forward.And one final point....remember that your goal is....To Feel BETTER & not have ANY more symptoms. You don't need a read a study that says there's no proof that Probiotics are effective in helping IBS or Digestive Enzymes don't cure/help IBS.Remember what "IBS" is a "TRASHBAG DIAGNOSIS"A "CATCH-ALL TERM" to write something on your chart because they can't find anything wrong with you.Good Luck!


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Dr. Rogers, does not do specialized IBS research. She may also be to busy with her private practice.weight loss is a red flag symptoms for IBS and is not typical.You can already do this?"To start thinking for yourself" regardless."That you're your own best Dr. "This is not true unless you have a degree in gastroenterology?You can feel your symptoms though."That you don't have to continue suffering even though you've been told to "learn to live with it" "theres no cure" Blah Blah "Your making this up!!!"She provides you with information on dozens of supplements/programs to try all focusing on eliminating your symptoms."so does this bb and accurate info on IBS."Its not an easy road...you have to be determined & focused to get better. "Whats new with that, same as for IBS."What worked great for me, may not be as effective for you."While this is true, many things work statistically for IBS patients. How do you explain 80 percent reduction in symptoms by 80 percent of the people doing ht for IBS?Or statistical percentages of other treatments.?"Once you start feeling better....this will give you incredible motivation to keep going forward."Yes? "Digestive Enzymes don't cure"Show me ONE study where a particular Digestive Enzymes "cures" IBS?"Remember what "IBS" is a "TRASHBAG DIAGNOSIS"A "CATCH-ALL TERM" to write something on your chart because they can't find anything wrong with you."Totally false and old IBS dogma!!!!!!!Again your not providing anything here in regards to any REAL research. Most of it is your opinion, which does not support the current state of the art research on IBS.Your also missing some of the real problems seen in IBS they already know about at this time from thousands of experts in gastrroenterology, neurogastroenterology, Neuroendocrine Immunology, molecular biology,and more in different fields and centers from around the world.


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## Arnie W (Oct 22, 2003)

During my lengthy google search I was quite intrigued with the titles of Sherry Roger's books. Perhaps they are not necessarily specific to IBS, but I was very interested in the range of topics she has covered.Thanks for giving me a rundown of your progress, David. I have to say that at this stage of my journey I have lost all confidence in doctors. My digestive system is still a mess despite countless visits to GIs and allopathic doctors. I have not made progress, my symptoms have been minimised and I HAVE been told to learn with it. In fact I started a thread about that very same thing recently after a visit to the doctor when I felt at the end of my tether. I don't want to see a glazed look passing over a doctor's face ever again.I am on my own in this journey, not withstanding the encouragement I get from this board. I just feel it is a waste of time to seek any more treatment, though I still could ask for some of the many tests I have read about on IBSGroup.I've done probiotics for a couple of years - can't say they've helped, but I'll continue with them. Also looking forward to trying the GSE cps when they arrive. The only trick I've got left up my sleeve is computerised testing called QXCI. Anyone heard of that? And if they fail I really don't see any hope to allevate my symptoms, as I've tried everything else. Oh yes, I haven't tried biofeedback yet.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Arnie, lossing faith in your doctors, especially if they aren't working well with you creates depression about your situation, which then can contribute to bowel dysfunction.What is your worse symptom?That you are not gaining ground is not good.Diagnosing and Treating Patients with Refractory Functional Gastrointestinal Disorders "All patients hold certain perceptions about their illnesses and have expectations for treatment: their "cognitive schema" or belief system [34, 35]. If their beliefs are realistic and consistent with physician expectations, a mutually acceptable treatment plan is likely. However, many patients referred to medical centers have unrealistic beliefs about cause and treatment and are not satisfied by negative findings or the physician's reassurance. For example, the patient's belief that "there must be a medical (that is, â€˜organicâ€™) explanation for this pain" leads to continued medical consultations, hypervigilance to bodily sensations, and increased anxiety and arousal when no "cause" is found. A perpetual state of anxiety, physiologic arousal, and sensitivity to pain ensues, which only confirms (from the patient's perspective) the evidence for a physical cause. By trying to understand the patient's belief system (see below), the physician can provide more relevant information and develop a negotiated treatment plan. If this is not done, the patient will remain dissatisfied with the care and continue to seek new diagnostic tests and treatments. Questions to ask include the following: What do you think is causing your symptoms? What are your concerns or fears about your illness? What do you hope I will be able to do for you? [36]."http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/123/9/688also just fyi but this is a researcher to check out."Esther M. Sternberg, M.D. Esther M. Sternberg, M.D., is Director of Integrative Neural Immune Program and Chief of the Section on Neuroendocrine Immunology and Behavior at the National Institute of Mental Health and National Institutes of Health. Prior to coming to NIH, she trained in rheumatology at McGill University, practiced medicine in Montreal and was on the faculty at Washington University, School of Medicine in St. Louis. The winner of the Public Health Service Superior Service Award and recent President of the International Society for Neuroimmunomodulation, Dr. Sternberg has written over one hundred scientific papers, review articles, and book chapters on the subject of brain-immune connections, including articles in Scientific American and Nature Medicine. She has also co-directed an exhibition on Emotions and Disease at the National Library of Medicine and lectures nationally and internationally on emotions, health, and disease. "http://www.esthersternberg.com/


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## Arnie W (Oct 22, 2003)

My main worry is gas because of its anti-social connotations. I can live with the steady flow of visits to the toilet every day (worse if I get D) but I would rather get to the stage where I only had to go once or twice daily. It stuns me when doctors think: "Well, what's the problem?"


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

So pain is not bigger then the gas problem or the d?I can tell you in some ways you might be lucky really. Severe pain in IBS can get really really bad and stop you completely dead in your tracts.How much fiber do you really eat?Do you consider your eating habits irregular?The Gas Problem No One Talks Abouthttp://www.infozine.com/news/stories/op/st...View/sid/12108/Have you used immodium ever?What treatments are you doing right now?Do you get bloating and distension or just gas?Is the gas abnormal amounts? "The average human releases 0.5 to 1.5 litres (1 to 3 U.S. pints) of flatus in 12 to 25 episodes throughout the day.""Intestinal gas is composed of 90% exogenous sources (air that is ingested through the nose and mouth) and 10% endogenous sources (gas is produced within the digestive tract). "also have you actually thought about this? "My main worry" worry causes altered gut contractions.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Arnie, would you describe your IBS as mild, moderate or severe?


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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

David, I hope you continue to contribute here. We need peeps like you. I agree w/ your words, as that is the exact path I followed when the docs were of ZERO help. If I'd not studied on my own & found many diff things to try w/ discipline & a journal, I'd still be in pain & tied to the loo. Happy New Year! Talissa


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## 15866 (Oct 26, 2005)

IBS IS used as a "catchall" phrase. When a doctor can't figure out why the patient is having these symptoms, he/she lumps the problem into 1 idea - IBS. And physicians DO tell MANY of us patients that it's all in our head. That's mostly because they think it's due to our nerves. Many doctor's were taught to believe that the nerves can effect our intestines and lead to IBS. IBS for many years was not upon by many physicians as legitimate. So not many studies were done for IBS. There STILL are not enough studies done for IBS. There are many reasons why people end up with IBS and YES candida and bad bacteria ARE a legitimate cause of IBS. I am living proof that it is. I gave up on physician after physician telling me to go home and relax and my IBS would somehow magically go away! I tried every drug out there for IBS, I tried relaxation methods and I finally decided that the ONLY Doctor that was capable of curing my IBS after 20 years was Dr. Dee. ME!!!!!!!!! I spent hours searching for any info on IBS I could find. When I found the candida and bad bacteria I decided that was the route to take - it made so much sense! I did hours/days and months of research on the remedies for it and found info on grapefruit seed extract and probiotics. Doctors should have learned in med school that our intestines can build up bad bacteria and yeast and that we need to get rid of it and replace it with good bacteria. What a simple concept! Why not try the ideas out there for the natural way? GSE has been used around the world for YEARS to kill off bad bacteria. And if it works for so many of us, why not do a complete study to find out if a large percentage of those of us with IBS have this problem? Doctors won't make much money off us if GSE and probiotics work to cure us of this horrible thing. I spent 20 years with IBS and just told myself I would not put up with it anymore and the Dr. Dee in me broke through and fought for a cure. I wish someone had told me about GSE and probiotics 20 years ago! 11 weeks and 5 days and counting.2006 is going to be a new start for me.Hopefully healthy and happy.Hopefully healthy and happy for ALL of us!!!!


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Yes, there are some bad doctors out there that do use it that way and they need to be hauled off to some continuing education classes.There are doctors that diagnose it properly and don't tell patients things that have been shown not to be true.Like any profession you got good ones and bad ones.If they can actually prove the alt. med theories of toxic colon bactiera/build up/ whichever version of death begins in the colon any given "natural" practioner uses to expalin things then they will teach it in medical school. As long as it is just a hypothesis without the hard data to back it up they will not teach it in medical school.Be careful with Grapefruit seed extracts if you take other medications as some interact strongly with a number of compounds in grapefruit. Natural does not equal risk free.My doctor, one of the good ones, actually does recommend probitoics. He really thinks the Align product shows really good promise from the scientific studies that were done on it.It is not all MD's are evil money grubbing jerks and all holistic/natural/alternative people are soley in it for the good of all mankind.Really, there are money grubbing jerks and people who just want to help on both sides of the divide.K.


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## flux (Dec 13, 1998)

> quote:Many doctor's were taught to believe that the nerves can effect our intestines


They should be taught. It's true.


> quote:There STILL are not enough studies done for IBS.


I don't think the people researching IBS would agree that; they are too busy researching IBS









> quote: YES candida and bad bacteria ARE a legitimate cause of IBS.


IBS is *not* caused by Candida. There also isn't any direct evidence that IBS is caused by "bad" bacteria.


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## David LA (Dec 21, 2005)

Talissa,-Thank you for your kind words. I also hope you have a Great New Year! The good news is more people are embracing Alternative Medicine in dealing/treating their "IBS" & more people are realizing that the progress conventional medicine has made in treating "IBS" in the last 20 years could fit on the head of a pin.People like Drossman & all his followers will be in the minority in the future. And hopefully it will be in the not-to-distant future.


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## David LA (Dec 21, 2005)

Took20years-Just wanted to thank you for your great post. These are the kinds of posts thatcan really inspire & help people. Not...The posts that say the FDA has approved this....JAMA has published this...."Dr. Expert" doesn't like itMy feeling is that if people are getting positive results by taking supplement XXXXits at least worth a try. I DON'T care if it wasn't given the "OK" by the experts.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

Just my two cents.I feel people need all the info so they can make an informed decision.The info from IBS research should be included in getting all the info. Not banished from the board like you seem to want.Last I checked this was not an alternative medicine only board. Why can't all viewpoints be respected? Both FDA and scientifically proven methods and alternative methods can be discussed without all this attack anyone who doesn't agree with you BS.You will never get eveyone to agree with you. You are entitled to your opinion, but don't assume that NO ONE ever got relief from something that didn't help you, or that if they don't do it your way they will suffer forever. Lots of things in JAMA and recommended by experts and approved by the FDA do work for some people. Why should NO ONE EVER be allowed to talk about that. Yes, talk about what works for you, but can we stop this constant bickering and attacking that which you do not like which for the most part only gets people looking for information to leave the board before they get a chance to find something here that will help them. Positive posts about your sucess are much more effective at getting your point made then tearing down what you don't like. K.


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## 15866 (Oct 26, 2005)

I agree that all info we can get on IBS is needed.But when we post about natural remedies for IBS there are some that seem to disagree with anything we have to say.All of us with IBS need as much information from both sides to try to help themselves. I am not against drugs for IBS, I am for anything at all that will help with solving our sickness. I feel that if there are choices for the natural then we should try that too and see if maybe it works. My insides were destroyed by Tamoxifen and may never heal from the damage. Aloe Vera helped heal some of the damage and has kept the internal bleeding under control. There are many out there that would rather try something natural rather than a man made drug and we post all of that here. I think it's great that there is somewhere we can go to that we can dicuss all the options to try to heal ourselves. We need to look at both sides.I have tried to post about the positive effects I have had from GSE & probiotics for those who may have tried drugs, etc. with out any luck. Maybe this will help them too.


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## Arnie W (Oct 22, 2003)

In support of the doctors and GIs I have had (and there have been many) I have never struck one who has not been helpful, caring and generous with their time. I cannot complain about their attitude at all, but they cannot offer a fix for my problems. I have them bamboozled. And that is why I choose to follow alternative routes at present.Thanks for the questions, eric, but I don't want to get off the topic and it seems that the tone of the thread is changing. It would probably be better to discuss it on the Gas forum. However, in brief, I now have a new diagnosis of functional bowel disease because I only get discomfort, not pain, and, yes, for that I am indeed grateful. Gas for me is not a problem at all - it is the odor associated with it, and that is what seems to be stumping the experts.


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## eric (Jul 8, 1999)

Arnie, sounds like they diagnosed you with Functional d? There are some 25 functional disorders and some overlap or some like IBS and some of the others are similar it seems it causes and treatments.No problem and I can check that forum out."progress conventional medicine has made in treating "IBS" in the last 20 years could fit on the head of a pin."Thats funny because they have made huge progress and have found problems and have been helping people who listen. When was the last time alternative medicine was dissecting and studying colons and neurotransmitters and hormones and muscle tissues and the 100 million neurons in the gut?Dr gershon found the brain in the gut and works with IBS and Drossman and many many other top scientists and doctors. They are actually really helping in understanding IBS. "The Enteric Nervous System:A Second BrainMICHAEL D. GERSHONColumbia University Once dismissed as a simple collection of relay ganglia, the enteric nervous system is now recognized as a complex, integrative brain in its own right. Although we still are unable to relate complex behaviors such as gut motility and secretion to the activity of individual neurons, work in that area is proceeding briskly--and will lead to rapid advances in the management of functional bowel disease."http://www.hosppract.com/issues/1999/07/gershon.htmHmmm that came from conventional medicine and science. National center for Complementary and alternative medicine. NCCAM, National Institutes of Health"What is complementary and alternative medicine? Complementary and alternative medicine, as defined by NCCAM, is a group of diverse medical and health care systems, practices, and products that are not presently considered to be part of conventional medicine.1,2 While some scientific evidence exists regarding some CAM therapies, *for most there are key questions that are yet to be answered through well-designed scientific studies--questions such as whether these therapies are safe and whether they work for the diseases or medical conditions for which they are used." * "Notes1 Conventional medicine is medicine as practiced by holders of M.D. (medical doctor) or D.O. (doctor of osteopathy) degrees and by their allied health professionals, such as physical therapists, psychologists, and registered nurses. Other terms for conventional medicine include allopathy; Western, mainstream, orthodox, and regular medicine; and biomedicine. Some conventional medical practitioners are also practitioners of CAM.2 Other terms for complementary and alternative medicine *include unconventional, non-conventional, unproven, and irregular medicine or health care."*http://nccam.nih.gov/health/So you ask yourself, do you want to do something proven or unproven? To help IBS?Do you want to have a good doctor patient relatioship and still shop around? Personally I use intergrative medicine approach.I also know there is no one OTC or "safe natrual" pill that will cure IBS at this time that has been researched and shown to "cure" IBS.I also know some people are killing bacteria in their guts when the problem is actually serotonin related or mast cell related.Drossman is connected to the IBS research around the world from lots of top centers with real scientists trying to figure out very complex issues. Its not one person.I thing its a personal shame because I know him and he is extremely nice and cares about people with IBS and helping them.David do you go to their free online chats where they take their valuable time to help people with IBS?Drossman and others like him and their colleges from around the world are working on helping us?Its a shame to see someone say something like that about him.You must have had some bad doctors expriences. Yet you follow conventioanl dr infformation? You were posting the doctors above qualifications?But others qualifications in gastroenterology and neurogastroenterology doesn't mean anything?Again its not one person?"I agree that all info we can get on IBS is needed."That is for sure! There is a ton of IBS information and accurate information and helpful information and its not well understood by the general public."All of us with IBS need as much information from both sides to try to help themselves."This thread is how long and not one person has shown any evidence on candida and IBS? We have shown in great detail and could even supply more its NOT! We can even show bugs that can cause people to develop IBS. No one talks about them?Natural doesn't mean it cannot harm you. Arsenic is natural. GRAPE SEED EXTRACT"Keep out of Reach of Children""Adverse effects None known.Precautions Hypersensitivity to grapeseed extract. Pregnant and breast-feeding women should avoid grapeseed extract supplements pending long-term safety studies. Use with caution in people with a history of bleeding or haemostatic disorders.Interactions Theoretically, grapeseed extract may enhance the effect of drugs affecting coagulation or platelet aggregation (eg, aspirin, warfarin, clopidogrel)."http://www.pharmj.com/noticeboard/tips/sup...1grapeseed.htmlI am not saying it doesn't have benefits either.Also the alternative people are always going safe and natural and miss conventional medicine doctors saying IBS should be treated holistically? CBT and HT are known to help IBS and have been researched, but not many people in alternative medicince I have seen on this bb mention that or even relaxation techniques that have been researched. IN the case of HT 20 years. Totally safe and natural as well as many others!No its take this pill, kill this germ or bacteria! Show some evidence, that is what were asking for here? like five times now and nada, zip? Opinions, but no hard data. The thing that conventional has is hard data.Or that some people IBS just goes away, albeit a small percentage. "Whether they're looking for a short cut to losing weight or a cure for a serious ailment, consumers may be spending billions of dollars a year on unproven, fraudulently marketed, often useless health-related products, devices and treatments. Why? Because health fraud trades on false hope. It promises quick cures and easy solutions to a variety of problems, from obesity to cancer and AIDS. But consumers who fall for fraudulent "cure-all" products don't find help or better health. Instead, they find themselves cheated out of their money, their time, and maybe even their health. Fraudulently marketed health products can keep people from seeking and getting treatment from their own healthcare professional. Some products can cause serious harm, and many are expensive because health insurance rarely covers unapproved treatments. To avoid becoming victims of health fraud, it's important for consumers to learn how to assess health claims and seek the advice of a health professional. "http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/health/frdheal.htm


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## 15866 (Oct 26, 2005)

EricIt's not Grape Seed Extract that is used to rid the colon of yeast/bad bacteria, it's Grapefruit Seed Extract - GSE. Grapefruit Seed Extract does not cause bleeding, that is why I can take it because I'm a bleeder.And yes, it's been proven to work for IBS, it worked for me.


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## 15866 (Oct 26, 2005)

EricAre you also against accupuncture and hypnosis even though people have said it has worked for them for so many problems? I say whatever works, as long as it is safe, we should all try different things until we find the one that works for us. I took alot of trial and error for me. GSE is safe but can not be used if someone is on certain medicines and they can find that out from their doctors.


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## Kathleen M. (Nov 16, 1999)

> quote:And yes, it's been proven to work for IBS, it worked for me.


If I may be technical for a moment. Working in one or more person without any sort of experimental controls does not constitute proof that it works for IBS in general.It worked for you and really you cannot extrapolate one data point out to make that kind of generalization. You can say it worked for you, you can't say it works for IBSers in general.The problem is sample size. IBS has a habit of getting better on it's own or for reasons unrelated to the thing you tried. (in clinical trials the placebo control cure rate is often over 30% so if you have one person you don't know if they are in the would have gotten better about that time anyway, which is why it isn't proof, or the person treating you or some other aspect of life might have hit the right psychosocial cues you needed to heal yourself, and some of why people get better in clinical trials for any disease on placebos is that it is a different environment than the clinic)I know we all like to think it is proof, but it isn't.FWIW Hypnosis has been well studied in some well designed experiements as has CBT, so they aren't the same as some methods for treating IBS that is just someone's thoughts about what might work that they haven't tested in a controlled manner.K.


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## Talissa (Apr 10, 2004)

Oh Jeesh, don't get Eric started on hypnosis.He LOVES it--it's what help bring him back to normal.In fact, "Mike's Tapes", hypnosis at home for IBS, are available FOR SALE on his website...


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## Jeffrey Roberts (Apr 15, 1987)

Folks,This posting has become quite long, quite a bit off topic, and likely not very useful to anyone who doesn't read all 7 pages of postings. I'm closing it, not because it is out of hand. Rather it is just too long.Please feel free to start a new topic that perhaps more closely identifies with what the topic has become.Jeff


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